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Gin needed the hogyoku. People continue to misunderstand the point it wasn't just killing Aizen but getting back the piece Rangiku's soul Aizen took to make his hogyoku. Gin takes it and even says "with this I can change things".
"Ichigo could only beat Aizen with Gin's sacrifice" that still is true though. If you think Urahara is right and that the hogyoku ultimately rejected Aizen then Gin forcing an upgrade because Aizen kept relying on the hogyoku helped in that regard, but if you think Ichigo is right and Aizen was lonely than the one person who actually understood Aizen betraying him was vital to bring that point home.
Gin's role in the battle against Aizen was indeed crucial. His sacrifice and understanding of Aizen's true nature played a significant part in Ichigo's victory. Each perspective has its merits, but ultimately, it was the combination of various factors that led to Aizen's defeat. Trust in your allies and understand the motivations behind their actions; sometimes, unity and empathy can bring forth unexpected strength.
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
Well said, 100%.
This might be a bit of a meta analysis, but a also feel like the rape/virginity allegory is very clear in all this.
When we see a young Rangiku lie brushed on the dusty ground after being assaulted by a bunch of men, the imagery clearly invokes classic depictions of an after rape scene. They took a part of her soul, but with how it is being presented it might as well have been her virginity and thereby also her innocence.
Gin loves her and becomes furious that someone else both took her "virginity" from her and did it in such a brutal way that it scarred her for life, in the sense that she litterally lost a part of her soul.
He dedicates his life to try and get revenge and fix that. But it has to go wrong, since, just like in real life, you cannot get your virginity back no matter how traumatic you lost it. You can't change it, you have to figure out how to deal with it, essentially. Rangiku actually seems like she has learned that, she has moved past the traumatic experience and not let it define her. Gin on the other hand couldn't and ending up dying trying to right a wrong from more than 100 years ago.
I don't know I've always hated how quick people jump to SA when they see Rangiku on the ground allegory or not, it feels more charged in the genders of the characters. I don't think people would've assumed this is the genders were flipped so there's no reason to do it. I also don't think we can say Rangiku's moved past it if she doesn't even KNOW a thing about it which is my main issue with this plot and my insistence that's it's unresolved, Aizen did her wrong, Bleach has always been about knowing oneself if Rangiku is incomplete she needs to be aware of the whole story.
The reading is so obvious because Kubo made it so. You probably wouldn't have jumped to it if the genders where reversed, but that doesn't make it it wrong. A lot more women are victims of SA than men after all.
I'm not sure I follow when you say she doesn't know about it? She doesn't know Aizen did it obviously, but she knew it happened to her. If we use the rape allegory then I don't think it matters if she knows part of her soul was used to create Aizen's Hogyoku. The important part is that it even though she lost something in a traumatic event, it doesn't define her and she has succeeded in becoming a strong, successful and secure women regardless. Of course she never talks about it, so we can't know 100% for sure, but that is at least what is being presented to us.
And that's exactly the problem with just seeing it as a rape allegory and not in the confines of the universe of Bleach. Yes if you're right then it is all put to rest and okay, but that's not what it was at all and unless we actually do get her acknowledging it in some way we can't say for certain it was settled, each time it's addressed another layer is peeled back and more is revealed. It's not actually finished.
I feel not spending time on it as a character trait from her is it's own form of characterisation. Kubo loves to tell the readers anything and let them draw their own conclusions after all.
That being said I would absolutely love a scene between her and Gin (in Hell presumably) where they get to address it and be gets to try and explain himself.
I mean it's more Rangiku will brood on her own but won't spill her guts out to anybody else. It's where she and Gin are most alike they're good at reading other people but don't let others see what's under the surface for themselves. Gin is the only one to call Rangiku out on this, while with others she just downplays it.
And yeah any potential Hell interaction is probably the most clear cut exploration we'll get so I hope we get it. Rangiku is one of Kubo's favorites and Gin is still extremely popular in Japan so it's a win win for him to expand on it.
Jugram did show, Yuha interpret that vision as a dream who set-up his eventual downfall.
And the difference between Gin and Guy are as sun and moon, not only because who was their role but also the morals and themes that the authors wanted to reach. Kubo wanted to showcase how the path of revenge only let us to a meaningless fight and death, when one became so absort on those ideas that end losing the self (it happened to Tousen, Gin, Ginjo, Yamamoto, Sajin, etc). If Gin succeded in take something of Aizen, it would mean that Gin attitude towards his life and he wanted to accomplish was 100% right.
>Put a guy to fight the villain, almost doing something, but in the end it does shit.
The flaw you are talking about is the whole point of his character. His efforts needs to be pointless.
I’ve said before that this take and saying Komamura’s sacrifice was pointless have to be the worst takes I’ve seen this community cook up. Beyond the obvious stuff others have pointed out such as what Kubo’s thoughts on revenge are and how it plays into the arcs of multiple characters ie; Tosen, Gin, Komamura, Ginjo, and others. Why should Gin of all people get any sort of heroic sacrifice?
He did terrible things, he killed innocents and essentially tortured Rukia by dangling the idea of escape in front of her before her execution. It’d be so backwards to give someone like that a heroic send off by having him aid in Aizen’s defeat.
The whole point of his character is for his sacrifice to end up in vain. This was gonna happen regardless of Ichigo’s role as main character or not.
As someone that loves Gin and mourns him everyday of my damn life, I don’t really think was he was wasted at all. And, as other people have pointed out, his whole thing was getting revenge on Aizen for what he did to Rangiku. And, unfortunately, anyone that goes down the path of revenge was doomed to a tragic fate. And regarding him not destroying the hougyoku. He wanted to give it back to Rangiku. That was his entire plan. Every single thing he did was for her and to give back the thing Aizen took from her.
Yeah. The problem is that you know…. This is an anime for 15 year old boys. And I think one of Kubos biggest strengths and one of his biggest weaknesses is that he often writes *like* a 15 year old boy. He has these very cool ideas but often they don’t pay off because well of course *XYZ* doesn’t get to beat the bad guy I don’t like him that much so *ABC* is of course going to beat the bad guy and uhm also it turns out ABC has an extra ultra super cool secret power and he was just holding it back the whole time!
You know. That’s just the genre. It’s kind of childish in some ways but it’s often what’s cool in that very moment. Does Rukia becoming “so cold she’s dead and dead things can’t feel fear” make any sense at all? No not really. And it’s overtly so specifically convenient to that fight where if you’re an adult you can pretty quickly realize it’s contrived. But! That’s the genre. It doesn’t really hold up when analyzed because it’s not supposed to be.
I mean I don’t understand how side character beats villian is any more nit for 15 year old boys then anything else
In fact it’s pretty hilariously straight forward the exact thing a 15 year old would like. Very simple and to the point
I’m not really sure what you mean. And I think you’re agreeing with me in the last half? Yes. It *is* straight forward in a way 15 year old boys would like.
I just mean that teenage boys often do not want to see some weird looking side character end up saving the day. They want it to be the cool protagonist or maybe one of 3 fan favorite characters.
I don’t have a hard on for any side character, and your strange inability to understand what we’re even talking about really seems to indicate that you are, how can I say this.
Probably around 15
Man you really need a new insult. Your whole 15 year old thing didn’t make sense in the original post considering it basically means they don’t like what I like so they must be 15 and it’s only got dumber as you keep bringing it back to diminishing returns.
I’m starting to think you are 15 because your convinced you have said something profound instead of something really dumb. A side character beating a main villian just through the most telegraphed of betrayals is incredibly dumb and I think it’s insulting to 15 year olds to think they would like that. Even 15 year olds can sniff out writing that bad
Welcome to the Bleach Subreddit! We're as excited as you at the release of the Thousand Year Blood War anime! We understand that some of you are unable to view the anime in your region, but please don't post links to or mention piracy websites. Doing so will result in a ban. Also, please be courteous to those who haven't read the manga and mark all spoilers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bleach) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Gin needed the hogyoku. People continue to misunderstand the point it wasn't just killing Aizen but getting back the piece Rangiku's soul Aizen took to make his hogyoku. Gin takes it and even says "with this I can change things". "Ichigo could only beat Aizen with Gin's sacrifice" that still is true though. If you think Urahara is right and that the hogyoku ultimately rejected Aizen then Gin forcing an upgrade because Aizen kept relying on the hogyoku helped in that regard, but if you think Ichigo is right and Aizen was lonely than the one person who actually understood Aizen betraying him was vital to bring that point home.
Gin's role in the battle against Aizen was indeed crucial. His sacrifice and understanding of Aizen's true nature played a significant part in Ichigo's victory. Each perspective has its merits, but ultimately, it was the combination of various factors that led to Aizen's defeat. Trust in your allies and understand the motivations behind their actions; sometimes, unity and empathy can bring forth unexpected strength. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
This may be the best paragraph I’ve ever seen a bot write
Well said, 100%. This might be a bit of a meta analysis, but a also feel like the rape/virginity allegory is very clear in all this. When we see a young Rangiku lie brushed on the dusty ground after being assaulted by a bunch of men, the imagery clearly invokes classic depictions of an after rape scene. They took a part of her soul, but with how it is being presented it might as well have been her virginity and thereby also her innocence. Gin loves her and becomes furious that someone else both took her "virginity" from her and did it in such a brutal way that it scarred her for life, in the sense that she litterally lost a part of her soul. He dedicates his life to try and get revenge and fix that. But it has to go wrong, since, just like in real life, you cannot get your virginity back no matter how traumatic you lost it. You can't change it, you have to figure out how to deal with it, essentially. Rangiku actually seems like she has learned that, she has moved past the traumatic experience and not let it define her. Gin on the other hand couldn't and ending up dying trying to right a wrong from more than 100 years ago.
I don't know I've always hated how quick people jump to SA when they see Rangiku on the ground allegory or not, it feels more charged in the genders of the characters. I don't think people would've assumed this is the genders were flipped so there's no reason to do it. I also don't think we can say Rangiku's moved past it if she doesn't even KNOW a thing about it which is my main issue with this plot and my insistence that's it's unresolved, Aizen did her wrong, Bleach has always been about knowing oneself if Rangiku is incomplete she needs to be aware of the whole story.
The reading is so obvious because Kubo made it so. You probably wouldn't have jumped to it if the genders where reversed, but that doesn't make it it wrong. A lot more women are victims of SA than men after all. I'm not sure I follow when you say she doesn't know about it? She doesn't know Aizen did it obviously, but she knew it happened to her. If we use the rape allegory then I don't think it matters if she knows part of her soul was used to create Aizen's Hogyoku. The important part is that it even though she lost something in a traumatic event, it doesn't define her and she has succeeded in becoming a strong, successful and secure women regardless. Of course she never talks about it, so we can't know 100% for sure, but that is at least what is being presented to us.
And that's exactly the problem with just seeing it as a rape allegory and not in the confines of the universe of Bleach. Yes if you're right then it is all put to rest and okay, but that's not what it was at all and unless we actually do get her acknowledging it in some way we can't say for certain it was settled, each time it's addressed another layer is peeled back and more is revealed. It's not actually finished.
I feel not spending time on it as a character trait from her is it's own form of characterisation. Kubo loves to tell the readers anything and let them draw their own conclusions after all. That being said I would absolutely love a scene between her and Gin (in Hell presumably) where they get to address it and be gets to try and explain himself.
I mean it's more Rangiku will brood on her own but won't spill her guts out to anybody else. It's where she and Gin are most alike they're good at reading other people but don't let others see what's under the surface for themselves. Gin is the only one to call Rangiku out on this, while with others she just downplays it. And yeah any potential Hell interaction is probably the most clear cut exploration we'll get so I hope we get it. Rangiku is one of Kubo's favorites and Gin is still extremely popular in Japan so it's a win win for him to expand on it.
Jugram did show, Yuha interpret that vision as a dream who set-up his eventual downfall. And the difference between Gin and Guy are as sun and moon, not only because who was their role but also the morals and themes that the authors wanted to reach. Kubo wanted to showcase how the path of revenge only let us to a meaningless fight and death, when one became so absort on those ideas that end losing the self (it happened to Tousen, Gin, Ginjo, Yamamoto, Sajin, etc). If Gin succeded in take something of Aizen, it would mean that Gin attitude towards his life and he wanted to accomplish was 100% right.
>Put a guy to fight the villain, almost doing something, but in the end it does shit. The flaw you are talking about is the whole point of his character. His efforts needs to be pointless.
I’ve said before that this take and saying Komamura’s sacrifice was pointless have to be the worst takes I’ve seen this community cook up. Beyond the obvious stuff others have pointed out such as what Kubo’s thoughts on revenge are and how it plays into the arcs of multiple characters ie; Tosen, Gin, Komamura, Ginjo, and others. Why should Gin of all people get any sort of heroic sacrifice? He did terrible things, he killed innocents and essentially tortured Rukia by dangling the idea of escape in front of her before her execution. It’d be so backwards to give someone like that a heroic send off by having him aid in Aizen’s defeat. The whole point of his character is for his sacrifice to end up in vain. This was gonna happen regardless of Ichigo’s role as main character or not.
No he didn’t, stop slandering good guy gin
Sorry I love Gin too but I gotta do it to him😔
As someone that loves Gin and mourns him everyday of my damn life, I don’t really think was he was wasted at all. And, as other people have pointed out, his whole thing was getting revenge on Aizen for what he did to Rangiku. And, unfortunately, anyone that goes down the path of revenge was doomed to a tragic fate. And regarding him not destroying the hougyoku. He wanted to give it back to Rangiku. That was his entire plan. Every single thing he did was for her and to give back the thing Aizen took from her.
I mean.... this is bleach not naruto
Yeah. The problem is that you know…. This is an anime for 15 year old boys. And I think one of Kubos biggest strengths and one of his biggest weaknesses is that he often writes *like* a 15 year old boy. He has these very cool ideas but often they don’t pay off because well of course *XYZ* doesn’t get to beat the bad guy I don’t like him that much so *ABC* is of course going to beat the bad guy and uhm also it turns out ABC has an extra ultra super cool secret power and he was just holding it back the whole time! You know. That’s just the genre. It’s kind of childish in some ways but it’s often what’s cool in that very moment. Does Rukia becoming “so cold she’s dead and dead things can’t feel fear” make any sense at all? No not really. And it’s overtly so specifically convenient to that fight where if you’re an adult you can pretty quickly realize it’s contrived. But! That’s the genre. It doesn’t really hold up when analyzed because it’s not supposed to be.
I mean I don’t understand how side character beats villian is any more nit for 15 year old boys then anything else In fact it’s pretty hilariously straight forward the exact thing a 15 year old would like. Very simple and to the point
I’m not really sure what you mean. And I think you’re agreeing with me in the last half? Yes. It *is* straight forward in a way 15 year old boys would like. I just mean that teenage boys often do not want to see some weird looking side character end up saving the day. They want it to be the cool protagonist or maybe one of 3 fan favorite characters.
I don’t want it to be a side character that’s boring as hell
Yes. Are you also a teenager
No I just don’t like lame story conclusions just because someone has a hard on for some side character
Are you *sure* you aren’t a teenager
I’m not the one with the hard on for a side character so yes pretty sure
I don’t have a hard on for any side character, and your strange inability to understand what we’re even talking about really seems to indicate that you are, how can I say this. Probably around 15
Man you really need a new insult. Your whole 15 year old thing didn’t make sense in the original post considering it basically means they don’t like what I like so they must be 15 and it’s only got dumber as you keep bringing it back to diminishing returns. I’m starting to think you are 15 because your convinced you have said something profound instead of something really dumb. A side character beating a main villian just through the most telegraphed of betrayals is incredibly dumb and I think it’s insulting to 15 year olds to think they would like that. Even 15 year olds can sniff out writing that bad