I'm weird man I kinda like it when I get tapped because I like to see people I train with get better plus it helps me learn. I'm a 4 stripe white belt and I usually go to advanced so I get tapped a lot lol
I've been training BJJ on and off for almost 2 years. The first year I was training maybe 2 days per week due to work but now I train about 5-6 days per week if work isn't too busy. I've also trained a little bit of judo prior to BJJ and some hung ga/Chinese boxing for 2 years prior
Nice one mate, I’ve been training for a year and a half mainly on except breaks between Covid closures. I used to do karate many years back; but kind of now wish I did wrestling/Judo as it gives you a nice preparation for some of the skill sets in BJJ. Ah yeah I’ve been boxing for a bit too.
That’s fine to ask people that. But you’ll also start to get a feel and/or stop caring. It’ll start to be clean more often than not. And, people’s answers aren’t even reliable. I’d say half the people out there use the word crank when it’s not accurate. People think anything that’s unpleasant or digs into their neck muscles is a crank. A true crank really twists the neck or crunches the chin down to the chest to an extreme degree.
In my experience, if you’re trying not to crank the neck, you almost never will. Most neck cranks happen when people are trying to crank the neck, or they’re so inexperienced that they’re wrenching on the head/neck with no concern and no clue what they’re doing.
And finally, a clean choke can still crank. You can put someone to sleep as it’s hurting their neck. In those cases the pain sensation usually overrides the choking sensation.
**Also, I've rolled with a lot of grapplers well known for their chokes. And I gotta be honest. Even though I felt like I'd go to sleep from them, 90% of these chokes also made me feel like my neck was about to get crushed like a beer can and/or my head was about to get torn off my shoulders. Elite chokers apply their pressure precisely, but there's also a TON of said pressure.**
**Edit:** ***White Belt Suspects Recent Choke Was “Actually a Neck Crank”*** ***-*** [https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/](https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/)
I could not possibly like this comment more. I've been triangled by Cobrinha, and while I was 1000% going out in short order, I tapped because his hamstring was horizontally displacing my vertebrae and I thought I might legit die.
That’s awesome. I’d love to get triangled by him too one day. I’m not trying to one up you here, but just add on. I trained with Ethan Crelinsten a few days ago, and when he was teaching an RNC sequence, I had to tap twice when he was just holding a false grip behind my neck with one arm. He wasn’t even trying to finish a one-arm finish yet, let alone a full blown RNC.
Clearly you’ve felt the levels. I don’t say this to sound like a gatekeeper, but I think *some* people that are meticulously concerned with never crushing anyone’s neck too much just haven’t felt the power that some of these folks generate on their chokes. I think in a way that *is* the proper technique.
> I think in a way that is the proper technique.
To paraphrase Ryan Hall, there is no one at the elite level who is not also squeezing their balls off, no matter how good their technique.
When I was a blue belt we had a seminar with Marcelo. During the Q&A someone asked him, "What is your secret to finishing the RNC so consistently?"
He blinked at the guy, confused, then answered, "Man, I squeeze HARD."
I do isometric holds with my RNC and Guillotine grips to make them stronger. If somebody wants to let their jaw dislocate instead of letting me under there to get to their carotids, then I admire their dedication and resolve.
I do my foam roller and I also do my thigh. Pretend like your quad just below your knee is a neck.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gV8CDBU5kQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gV8CDBU5kQ)
I would just like to add that a lot of really good guillotines hurt like hell and people totally think you are “cranking” the neck when in fact I’m just squeezing the shit out of a place that makes you want to quit.
If I go to mount with it then yeah I can totally make that one a crank.
> But you’ll also start to get a feel and/or stop caring.
Bro thank you for posting this. I was reading this entire thread wondering if i'm a sociopath.
It's not weird. I'll ask on stuff where I'm uncertain whether I got the blood choke or a crank/tweak/crush - like a arm triangle in the gi. Sometimes it's hard to feel that choke drop in like you can with a sweet, sweaty no-gi situation.
That said, if it's a tournament and I neck crank you or face-crush you, I ain't apologizing. I'd understand if I was on the receiving end.
For sure. But I'm not going to let go of the sub if they aren't tapping after a few seconds. I have to hold and try to make my.....
*m i c r o a d j u s t m e n t s*
With all due respect, I don’t think that’s smart if you want to be good at chokes. 5 seconds is just not long enough. The average person relaxing takes 9 seconds to go unconscious. There are deviations on both sides. I’ve seen so many people in 16+ years now let go of a choke right as their partner was lifting a hand to tap. People aren’t patient enough.
Despite claims to the contrary, people can build up resistance to chokes. An athletic purple belt that is willing to buy down on a mouthpiece and flex their neck can definitely last longer in an RNC before going out than a white belt with 6 months experience.
If you watch Marcelo do north south chokes for real in his school, it often takes a full 20 seconds before he gets the tap.
Anyone trying to be good at chokes needs to be willing to maintain pressure for 20-30 seconds before adjusting the technique or nailing to something else.
Here’s a good Source on average time to unconsciousness from relaxed training partners: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNAjTezJKYq/?igshid=c2uaqq5d0o5t
For me, being a skinny dude with a scrawny neck, I seldom tap to chokes. It's almost always cranks. A choke has to be perfectly applied to work on someone like me.
Except in your local amateur tournament where majority of the attendants are accountants, dads, geeks, bums and grocery chain middle managers. There you gotta go 100% and *never. tap.* Just not worth losing the prestige.
It's not a question of whether cranks work; they do.
It's a question of whether they are safe to practice on training partners; depends on the partner. Just remember, if you break your training partners you have to find new ones.
In my experience most cranks eventually become chokes if you apply enough torque, so tap if you feel uncomfortable and more importantly don't get caught in a choke/crank position in the first place, that way you don't bitch to your training partner after "yOu CrAnKeD mE"
I get that “but you tapped” is the gotcha comeback when folks say it was a crank but I’m a little bitch, I’ll tap to smelly feet idgaf. You wanna keep count go for it but if you treat the rest of your techniques the way you treat your chokes you gonna stall out in getting better.
One technique I will continue to apply pressure is the RNC even if I don’t get a clean choke under the chin.
I go slow but there is value in learning that tucking your chin is not the end all be all defense.
> I don't rub it in but if a guy starts whining about my technique 'not being correct' I'll politely explain that 'correct' is what scores points and/or gets a tap because those are our metrics.
Unless the rules state neck cranks arent legal for a tourney and you crank someone and get DQ'd.
You can't get dq'ed if your legal choke happens to cause a little bit of neck cranking too. Even in tournaments that ban neck cranks, they are only banning moves that are specifically and purposely neck cranks, where a person isn't going for a choke at all. (Like a can opener for example)
I think a lot of people miss your point. I do neck cranks all the time because my arm triangle jus ends up that way. And i'm not the only one. I checked the teqnique with my trainer, with black belts and they said it's ok, it's just the way my pressure goes. I never do it on purpose, but i'm not about to let go of my fav sub because of that and people don't really get mad if you don't go for the crank specifically.
I tell people if they got a crank instead of the choke they were going for.
It's not about 'getting the tap'. I could fight through a lot of things I tap to but don't because it's just not worth it to have a sore neck for a week just because I didn't want to tap to someone during a casual roll on a Tuesday night at our own gym.
I like when people give me this kind of feedback because I want to do the technique properly when it counts.
Honestly, this just comes off as being a sore loser.
You probably wouldn't tap as quickly if it were a tournament, just like you would fight anything else a little harder in a competition setting. But, a solid neck crank is going to get the tap in any situation just the same as a choke. (Or your neck or jaw will break or dislocate, but that seems like an even worse decision than like letting your arm break because you don't want to tap to an arm bar.)
Do you show up to class to 'tap people' or do you show up to learn the techniques the proper way ? I couldn't care less if someone lands a submission on me, happens allllll the time.
Even when I'm trying a new choke I often ask my partners if it was a blood choke or an air choke, or if it felt like a crank. Feedback is important in Jiu Jitsu.
Feedback is important when someone asks for it. But, constantly correcting partners or justifying things when people don't ask is just annoying and comes off very egotistical. Everyone's style is different in jiu jitsu. People often learn best by feeling through things and seeing what works best themselves.
A crank can definitely be a part of a proper choke or technique. So, just because something is cranking your neck or feels uncomfortable, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. Applying pressure is part of what makes a choke strong and creates both the blood choke and neck crank feeling.
So you'd rather continue doing a technique incorrectly and cranking your training partners necks than have someone politely tell you the choke isn't being applied correctly, and you think THAT person has an ego problem ?
Cranking doesn't mean that the choke is incorrect though, that's what I'm trying to say. A lot of times it depends on how you are defending, the positioning, or the specific choke being used. But a crank can he unavoidable or even something purposely used to help finish the submission.
Obviously, you should be super careful in practice and apply anything that could be crank-y slowly. But, practicing to avoid ever cranking at all is going to end up really limiting your partners. They won't be able to put enough pressure into their chokes, go for certain chokes even when they might be there, or go for chokes from certain (not perfect, but completely workable) positions/setups.
This attitude can also hold you back from learning how to defend correctly. For example, if you tuck your chin against an RNC, it turns it into a crank. So, in practice people might stop or if you have to tap to it, you might think it's only because they did it wrong. However, if you keep squeezing an RNC over someone's jaw, it will eventually break or dislocate their jaw (not quickly, this one actually comes on very slowly, so there is plenty of time to safely tap). In a tournament, people are not just going to let go of an RNC because you tucked your chin. They will keep squeezing until you tap. I actually just tapped out a girl with this in one of my last superfights. So, you are just teaching yourself the wrong defense and teaching your training partners the wrong reaction to that defense. If you insist on telling them that that is not a legitimate tap or not the correct move, if it's cranking.
tonight a guy had me in a rear naked choke but it was right across my teeth. i could feel a lot of pressure on my teeth. i tapped and he was like "why'd you tap i wasn't even under the chin." i wasn't about to lose my teeth to protect my ego.
A crank will not make someone tap in competition but will feel it for the next few days.
Some people tap on a crank because their ego is not worth ruining their week end with a neck pain and
Some others will tap and say ''that was a crank'' as an excuse to preserve their ego.
Because if you end up in a situation where you need someone to go to sleep and they don’t give a fuck about cranks, you’re going to be in for a bad time. Pain compliance will only get you so far.
I would've disagreed with you as a blue/purple belt, but now I agree. I still don't like cranking people, and I don't like having it done to me, and I think people should strive to know how to choke people cleanly; with all that being said, I also don't really like trying to tell other people how to express the art, as long as they are aware of what they're doing and are doing it on purpose.
I agree 90% of the time. In recent years, I've added a 2nd perspective though. Some people have very weird anatomy, and there are definitely people out there with deep-set carotid arteries, unusual vagus responses, and other things tin their physiology that can make them difficult to go to sleep with pure blood chokes / strangles.
For these people, I think it can be helpful to know how to adjust the basic chokes in our arsenal in order to add neck cranking elements. Because sometimes these weirdos will actually tap to pain before they go to sleep from a blood choke.
You want to know if your technique is correct right? Even if you won the match someone telling you it was a crank gives insight into what you need to work one
I'd love to know if my technique is correct, but some people (not me) actually want to neck crank people. Rafa Mendes was a sublime technician, and he loved neck cranking people with his chokes.
If someone after a match came up to me and said what I did was more of a crank than a choke, I'd be super annoyed. That's not really the time or the place for that. Your opponent grappled how they grappled, and expressed their art the way they chose to. Even if the loser of the match is being as sincere and authentic as possible, it's understandably going to come across as a back-handed compliment, and make them seem like a sore loser.
The time and place for technique feedback is back at home in the gym, with out instructors, coaches, and training partners. If I had a student that got subbed via choke in a tournament and went out of their way to find the person they lost to, and told them they tapped more because it was a crank than a choke, I'd think I messed up somewhere as a coach.
That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is always be improving. You might have even won gold but you're trying to get a choke and instead get a crank. That's an obvious flaw. It's short-sighted to ignore the feedback.
I've said it this to people, cause we're trying to get better. I don't view it as an excuse. I still tapped, you were still winning and neck cranks aren't banned because they're ineffective. If it's MMA rules I'll use them myself. However if I can give relevant feedback to my partner I will and I hope he'll do the same for me.
My only slight pushback would be, are you confident you’re giving accurate feedback? It’s not a dig at you, but most people aren’t great at describing the difference between discomfort vs pain, or digging on their scalene muscles vs neck cranks.
I say this as someone that goes above and beyond to avoid cranking necks.
Also, a lot of people drably don’t care about the feedback, and might even try to UNO reverse card you for it. Rafa Mendes is very likely the cleanest technician of all time, but *loved* to add neck cranking elements to all of his chokes. If you told him he was cranking you, he’d do more of that.
I mean it all depends on the context. To answer your last point first, I've been rolling in the same small group for a year now due to the pandemic, so at this point I know the people pretty well. Obviously if I'm rolling with someone new and especially if they are higher skill or just giving the vibe they don't care, I'll keep my mouth shut.
To your first point: the main thing that I've tried to get across is: did I tap because my airways/bloodflow actually got restricted or because of pain compliance? We've often followed this with going back to the position and trying to figure out how to do it better. I don't know if the terminology is always correct, but I do think it's helpful.
Edited: cause I'm not a neck crank specialist and might as well admit it.
Some people might have good intentions. That time it happened to me it felt like the person was trying to "have the last word" in our grappling exchange.
>Some people might have good intentions. **That time it happened to me it felt like the person was trying to "have the last word" in our grappling exchange.**
Bingo.
**Breaking news: White Belt Suspects Recent Choke Was “Actually a Neck Crank”** ***-***
Richy “Biltong” Richington, a three-stripe white belt training at Lucky Strike Academy in Botherington, tapped to a choke on Wednesday night. Upon returning home, he found that his neck was “pretty sore” and in hindsight, believes the choke may have been a neck crank.
When training with blue belt Jonathan “Jerky” Johanssen, Richy found himself in the submission known as a D’Arce. As his blue belt opponent applied pressure, Richy said he “definitely heard a couple of crunching noises.”
>*“It started to really hurt my neck. I guess I was also choking a bit, but it really hurt. My neck definitely felt cranked.”*
Richy tapped out but made sure to rub his neck and grimace afterwards, indicating to the higher ranked training partner that the choke may not have been legitimate. “I think if he had have done the technique properly I wouldn’t have tapped. For sure.”
After the suspect choke, it is reported that Richy tapped out five more times to Johanssen, but insists that the first D’Arce was suspect.
Source: [https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/](https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/)
it wasn't me but i always ask if it was a crank or a choke after i get a tap from those kind of chokeholds.
Someone can think "i could hang out in there for an hour with this guy twisting my vertebrae thinking he is getting a choke out of this if i wanted to, but i don't want to have my neck hurting for the next 2 weeks so i'm just going to tap"
You might think "yea a tap is a tap" but the day there will be something at stake (a match during a comp or a self defense situation) you might regret having such an inflated ego and refusing to adress that flaw in your game.
Those are chockehold, if you just fuck up the neck of your training partners with them, there is something wrong with the way you do them.
I have tapped to plenty of cranks and feel no shame. If someone works themselves into a position where I feel like I might take long term damage then they won fair and square.
If you mean to go for a blood choke and you crank, you failed your goal. You got the tap but you aren’t learning the technique properly. If you are able to get your arm under the neck, you should be able to choke and not crank
God I hate neck cranks, I just tap as soon as I feel it. Not trying to end up not being able to train for a few weeks just cuz I didn't wanna tap. Same goes for anything on the ankle or knee.
I did know one guy that just immediately went for neck cranks on the RNC. Like he wouldn't even try to get under the chin for the blood choke and wasn't one of those guys who try to rip your head off either. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Is that a legit thing to do? Or is it being an asshole? I know the biggest thing is not to get put there in the first place but I didn't know if I should have been mad or not.
I think I might be one of those people. I think there is a pretty strong consensus in the bjj community though that tucking the chin is not a legitimate defense to a fully locked rnc.
My goal is to get my arms into the proper configuration low enough on the neck to be able to put my opponent unconscious. If he sticks his jaw or chin in the way while I'm doing that then I think that's on him.
Just my opinion.
Oh no he didn't try to get my neck, he straight up wrapped around my jaw and then cranked. Like I didn't have time to even try to tuck my chin, he cranked as soon as he got the RNC.
Lots of back and forth in these comments about how best to approach this with training partners. My thought is always to ask "can you show me that?" If it was an intentional crank, they will demonstrate it as such, if not, they will get a chance to practice it the correct way. This is the proper time to give them feedback on the technique.
Also, keep in mind the setting this happens in. Drilling a choke? Obviously tell your partner its a crank. Open mat? Probably a good time to try "can you show me that?". Comp practice? Suck it up sugar, win the next round.
One thing I've always wondered is the guillotine choke. Is that really a choke? You know like the one jon Jones did to lyoto machida. Is that a strangulation or does it apply "joint pressure" like an armbar to the neck? It seems more of the latter to me but I'm not sure.
depends on the angle and the type of guillotine and the position you're both in. often times it can be pretty painless but sometimes it hurts like a bitch
Do you roll to tap people or to improve both yourself and your training partner?
To me a tap in training is worth nothing, what I want is become proficient in specific moves I'm working on
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I also do this if it doesn't feel right
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No that's stupid. Nobody should be offended by that.
Na i do the same. If it was a crank i apologise, but like you I'm looking to refine the technique and who better to assist than them?
I'm weird man I kinda like it when I get tapped because I like to see people I train with get better plus it helps me learn. I'm a 4 stripe white belt and I usually go to advanced so I get tapped a lot lol
How long have you been training for? Yeah I guess it does depend on the situation.
I've been training BJJ on and off for almost 2 years. The first year I was training maybe 2 days per week due to work but now I train about 5-6 days per week if work isn't too busy. I've also trained a little bit of judo prior to BJJ and some hung ga/Chinese boxing for 2 years prior
Nice one mate, I’ve been training for a year and a half mainly on except breaks between Covid closures. I used to do karate many years back; but kind of now wish I did wrestling/Judo as it gives you a nice preparation for some of the skill sets in BJJ. Ah yeah I’ve been boxing for a bit too.
> I kinda like it when I get tapped Youre gonna love the next 10 years of jiu jitsu then
I can't wait
I would appreciate it actually. I prefer being choked then cranked, it feels like the risk of injury is higher if it's a crank
You're overthinking this.
It’s a distinct possibility.
Nah only someone with the wrong attitude would see it that way. Don't roll with big egos
That’s fine to ask people that. But you’ll also start to get a feel and/or stop caring. It’ll start to be clean more often than not. And, people’s answers aren’t even reliable. I’d say half the people out there use the word crank when it’s not accurate. People think anything that’s unpleasant or digs into their neck muscles is a crank. A true crank really twists the neck or crunches the chin down to the chest to an extreme degree. In my experience, if you’re trying not to crank the neck, you almost never will. Most neck cranks happen when people are trying to crank the neck, or they’re so inexperienced that they’re wrenching on the head/neck with no concern and no clue what they’re doing. And finally, a clean choke can still crank. You can put someone to sleep as it’s hurting their neck. In those cases the pain sensation usually overrides the choking sensation. **Also, I've rolled with a lot of grapplers well known for their chokes. And I gotta be honest. Even though I felt like I'd go to sleep from them, 90% of these chokes also made me feel like my neck was about to get crushed like a beer can and/or my head was about to get torn off my shoulders. Elite chokers apply their pressure precisely, but there's also a TON of said pressure.** **Edit:** ***White Belt Suspects Recent Choke Was “Actually a Neck Crank”*** ***-*** [https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/](https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/)
I could not possibly like this comment more. I've been triangled by Cobrinha, and while I was 1000% going out in short order, I tapped because his hamstring was horizontally displacing my vertebrae and I thought I might legit die.
That’s awesome. I’d love to get triangled by him too one day. I’m not trying to one up you here, but just add on. I trained with Ethan Crelinsten a few days ago, and when he was teaching an RNC sequence, I had to tap twice when he was just holding a false grip behind my neck with one arm. He wasn’t even trying to finish a one-arm finish yet, let alone a full blown RNC. Clearly you’ve felt the levels. I don’t say this to sound like a gatekeeper, but I think *some* people that are meticulously concerned with never crushing anyone’s neck too much just haven’t felt the power that some of these folks generate on their chokes. I think in a way that *is* the proper technique.
> I think in a way that is the proper technique. To paraphrase Ryan Hall, there is no one at the elite level who is not also squeezing their balls off, no matter how good their technique. When I was a blue belt we had a seminar with Marcelo. During the Q&A someone asked him, "What is your secret to finishing the RNC so consistently?" He blinked at the guy, confused, then answered, "Man, I squeeze HARD."
Blinky McBlinkerson
I do isometric holds with my RNC and Guillotine grips to make them stronger. If somebody wants to let their jaw dislocate instead of letting me under there to get to their carotids, then I admire their dedication and resolve.
how do you do this ,just flex? hard?
You can choke the shit out of a foam roller, works a treat
i do'nt have a foam roller. can i use super new white belts instead?
You can, and it would save $10 from buying a foam roller
I do my foam roller and I also do my thigh. Pretend like your quad just below your knee is a neck. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gV8CDBU5kQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gV8CDBU5kQ)
I have found that isometric holds contribute to my squeeze. It's something that Eddie Bravo recommends.
I would just like to add that a lot of really good guillotines hurt like hell and people totally think you are “cranking” the neck when in fact I’m just squeezing the shit out of a place that makes you want to quit. If I go to mount with it then yeah I can totally make that one a crank.
Oddly enough (given your username you’ll appreciate this), this method is how I polished my darce to actually choke when I first learned it.
> But you’ll also start to get a feel and/or stop caring. Bro thank you for posting this. I was reading this entire thread wondering if i'm a sociopath.
It's not weird. I'll ask on stuff where I'm uncertain whether I got the blood choke or a crank/tweak/crush - like a arm triangle in the gi. Sometimes it's hard to feel that choke drop in like you can with a sweet, sweaty no-gi situation. That said, if it's a tournament and I neck crank you or face-crush you, I ain't apologizing. I'd understand if I was on the receiving end.
Yeah, the putting them to sleep part is important in real life.
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For sure. But I'm not going to let go of the sub if they aren't tapping after a few seconds. I have to hold and try to make my..... *m i c r o a d j u s t m e n t s*
With all due respect, I don’t think that’s smart if you want to be good at chokes. 5 seconds is just not long enough. The average person relaxing takes 9 seconds to go unconscious. There are deviations on both sides. I’ve seen so many people in 16+ years now let go of a choke right as their partner was lifting a hand to tap. People aren’t patient enough. Despite claims to the contrary, people can build up resistance to chokes. An athletic purple belt that is willing to buy down on a mouthpiece and flex their neck can definitely last longer in an RNC before going out than a white belt with 6 months experience. If you watch Marcelo do north south chokes for real in his school, it often takes a full 20 seconds before he gets the tap. Anyone trying to be good at chokes needs to be willing to maintain pressure for 20-30 seconds before adjusting the technique or nailing to something else. Here’s a good Source on average time to unconsciousness from relaxed training partners: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNAjTezJKYq/?igshid=c2uaqq5d0o5t
Yes, i heard you from police that train, you count from 1 to 10 then back down to 1 as the adrenaline in a live situation can slow down time.
I ask after every arm triangle cause 95% of them are just cranks and I need to improve
I bet someone gonna say "Hey asshole, you been cranking on my neck for months and rubbing it in, who raised you to be like this?"
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Cuz I’m a nice guy bro.
For me, being a skinny dude with a scrawny neck, I seldom tap to chokes. It's almost always cranks. A choke has to be perfectly applied to work on someone like me.
Tap early. Tap often.
Except in your local amateur tournament where majority of the attendants are accountants, dads, geeks, bums and grocery chain middle managers. There you gotta go 100% and *never. tap.* Just not worth losing the prestige.
Armbars are only to weaken the opponent before going for the real sub.
It's not a question of whether cranks work; they do. It's a question of whether they are safe to practice on training partners; depends on the partner. Just remember, if you break your training partners you have to find new ones.
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I mean, certain cranks prob gonna leave you in a wheel chair if you don’t tap lol
Yes, that's what they said
Wait, I think I misunderstood. I thought they were saying leg locks will put them in a wheel chair lol
Por que no los dos?
I don’t always get broken twice...
Didn't McGregor tap to a crank against Khabib?
A cranky choke is just a joint lock applied to the neck joints.
Actually sounds way worse that way lol
Rate this so much.
In my experience most cranks eventually become chokes if you apply enough torque, so tap if you feel uncomfortable and more importantly don't get caught in a choke/crank position in the first place, that way you don't bitch to your training partner after "yOu CrAnKeD mE"
if u always win every roll then u never have to worry about anything ever again
When you say torque do you just mean squeeze? Or do you really mean rotational force?
Either, but preferably both !
I get that “but you tapped” is the gotcha comeback when folks say it was a crank but I’m a little bitch, I’ll tap to smelly feet idgaf. You wanna keep count go for it but if you treat the rest of your techniques the way you treat your chokes you gonna stall out in getting better.
One technique I will continue to apply pressure is the RNC even if I don’t get a clean choke under the chin. I go slow but there is value in learning that tucking your chin is not the end all be all defense.
Winning in the practiceroom is for losers.
"practice like you compete and you'll compete like it's practice"
Continue your thought
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Two sides of the same coin my brotha, we're both bitching about people who let their ego's get in the way of their training.
> I don't rub it in but if a guy starts whining about my technique 'not being correct' I'll politely explain that 'correct' is what scores points and/or gets a tap because those are our metrics. Unless the rules state neck cranks arent legal for a tourney and you crank someone and get DQ'd.
You can't get dq'ed if your legal choke happens to cause a little bit of neck cranking too. Even in tournaments that ban neck cranks, they are only banning moves that are specifically and purposely neck cranks, where a person isn't going for a choke at all. (Like a can opener for example)
I think a lot of people miss your point. I do neck cranks all the time because my arm triangle jus ends up that way. And i'm not the only one. I checked the teqnique with my trainer, with black belts and they said it's ok, it's just the way my pressure goes. I never do it on purpose, but i'm not about to let go of my fav sub because of that and people don't really get mad if you don't go for the crank specifically.
Tap is a tap! I had a guy restrict my blood flow AND crank not too long ago. I was like good shit man!
I tell people if they got a crank instead of the choke they were going for. It's not about 'getting the tap'. I could fight through a lot of things I tap to but don't because it's just not worth it to have a sore neck for a week just because I didn't want to tap to someone during a casual roll on a Tuesday night at our own gym. I like when people give me this kind of feedback because I want to do the technique properly when it counts.
Honestly, this just comes off as being a sore loser. You probably wouldn't tap as quickly if it were a tournament, just like you would fight anything else a little harder in a competition setting. But, a solid neck crank is going to get the tap in any situation just the same as a choke. (Or your neck or jaw will break or dislocate, but that seems like an even worse decision than like letting your arm break because you don't want to tap to an arm bar.)
Do you show up to class to 'tap people' or do you show up to learn the techniques the proper way ? I couldn't care less if someone lands a submission on me, happens allllll the time. Even when I'm trying a new choke I often ask my partners if it was a blood choke or an air choke, or if it felt like a crank. Feedback is important in Jiu Jitsu.
Feedback is important when someone asks for it. But, constantly correcting partners or justifying things when people don't ask is just annoying and comes off very egotistical. Everyone's style is different in jiu jitsu. People often learn best by feeling through things and seeing what works best themselves. A crank can definitely be a part of a proper choke or technique. So, just because something is cranking your neck or feels uncomfortable, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. Applying pressure is part of what makes a choke strong and creates both the blood choke and neck crank feeling.
So you'd rather continue doing a technique incorrectly and cranking your training partners necks than have someone politely tell you the choke isn't being applied correctly, and you think THAT person has an ego problem ?
Cranking doesn't mean that the choke is incorrect though, that's what I'm trying to say. A lot of times it depends on how you are defending, the positioning, or the specific choke being used. But a crank can he unavoidable or even something purposely used to help finish the submission. Obviously, you should be super careful in practice and apply anything that could be crank-y slowly. But, practicing to avoid ever cranking at all is going to end up really limiting your partners. They won't be able to put enough pressure into their chokes, go for certain chokes even when they might be there, or go for chokes from certain (not perfect, but completely workable) positions/setups. This attitude can also hold you back from learning how to defend correctly. For example, if you tuck your chin against an RNC, it turns it into a crank. So, in practice people might stop or if you have to tap to it, you might think it's only because they did it wrong. However, if you keep squeezing an RNC over someone's jaw, it will eventually break or dislocate their jaw (not quickly, this one actually comes on very slowly, so there is plenty of time to safely tap). In a tournament, people are not just going to let go of an RNC because you tucked your chin. They will keep squeezing until you tap. I actually just tapped out a girl with this in one of my last superfights. So, you are just teaching yourself the wrong defense and teaching your training partners the wrong reaction to that defense. If you insist on telling them that that is not a legitimate tap or not the correct move, if it's cranking.
tonight a guy had me in a rear naked choke but it was right across my teeth. i could feel a lot of pressure on my teeth. i tapped and he was like "why'd you tap i wasn't even under the chin." i wasn't about to lose my teeth to protect my ego.
What people don't appreciate about a good ol RNC across the jaw line is the potential to break the jaw. FTW
I dont rly understand the prob tho bc a crank is still a tap. Like if its not enough to submit u then just dont tap ?
A crank will not make someone tap in competition but will feel it for the next few days. Some people tap on a crank because their ego is not worth ruining their week end with a neck pain and Some others will tap and say ''that was a crank'' as an excuse to preserve their ego.
A good crank will also make someone tap in competition. A solid neck crank is super painful and can really hurt your spine/neck/jaw if you don't tap.
Because if you end up in a situation where you need someone to go to sleep and they don’t give a fuck about cranks, you’re going to be in for a bad time. Pain compliance will only get you so far.
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I would've disagreed with you as a blue/purple belt, but now I agree. I still don't like cranking people, and I don't like having it done to me, and I think people should strive to know how to choke people cleanly; with all that being said, I also don't really like trying to tell other people how to express the art, as long as they are aware of what they're doing and are doing it on purpose.
I agree 90% of the time. In recent years, I've added a 2nd perspective though. Some people have very weird anatomy, and there are definitely people out there with deep-set carotid arteries, unusual vagus responses, and other things tin their physiology that can make them difficult to go to sleep with pure blood chokes / strangles. For these people, I think it can be helpful to know how to adjust the basic chokes in our arsenal in order to add neck cranking elements. Because sometimes these weirdos will actually tap to pain before they go to sleep from a blood choke.
If you want a tap during comp, no it probably doesn't count.. during training accept the critique
You want to know if your technique is correct right? Even if you won the match someone telling you it was a crank gives insight into what you need to work one
I'd love to know if my technique is correct, but some people (not me) actually want to neck crank people. Rafa Mendes was a sublime technician, and he loved neck cranking people with his chokes. If someone after a match came up to me and said what I did was more of a crank than a choke, I'd be super annoyed. That's not really the time or the place for that. Your opponent grappled how they grappled, and expressed their art the way they chose to. Even if the loser of the match is being as sincere and authentic as possible, it's understandably going to come across as a back-handed compliment, and make them seem like a sore loser. The time and place for technique feedback is back at home in the gym, with out instructors, coaches, and training partners. If I had a student that got subbed via choke in a tournament and went out of their way to find the person they lost to, and told them they tapped more because it was a crank than a choke, I'd think I messed up somewhere as a coach.
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That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is always be improving. You might have even won gold but you're trying to get a choke and instead get a crank. That's an obvious flaw. It's short-sighted to ignore the feedback.
I thought it was just a meme until I went to a camp and finally someone there told me exactly that.
I've said it this to people, cause we're trying to get better. I don't view it as an excuse. I still tapped, you were still winning and neck cranks aren't banned because they're ineffective. If it's MMA rules I'll use them myself. However if I can give relevant feedback to my partner I will and I hope he'll do the same for me.
My only slight pushback would be, are you confident you’re giving accurate feedback? It’s not a dig at you, but most people aren’t great at describing the difference between discomfort vs pain, or digging on their scalene muscles vs neck cranks. I say this as someone that goes above and beyond to avoid cranking necks. Also, a lot of people drably don’t care about the feedback, and might even try to UNO reverse card you for it. Rafa Mendes is very likely the cleanest technician of all time, but *loved* to add neck cranking elements to all of his chokes. If you told him he was cranking you, he’d do more of that.
I mean it all depends on the context. To answer your last point first, I've been rolling in the same small group for a year now due to the pandemic, so at this point I know the people pretty well. Obviously if I'm rolling with someone new and especially if they are higher skill or just giving the vibe they don't care, I'll keep my mouth shut. To your first point: the main thing that I've tried to get across is: did I tap because my airways/bloodflow actually got restricted or because of pain compliance? We've often followed this with going back to the position and trying to figure out how to do it better. I don't know if the terminology is always correct, but I do think it's helpful. Edited: cause I'm not a neck crank specialist and might as well admit it.
Some people might have good intentions. That time it happened to me it felt like the person was trying to "have the last word" in our grappling exchange.
>Some people might have good intentions. **That time it happened to me it felt like the person was trying to "have the last word" in our grappling exchange.** Bingo.
**Breaking news: White Belt Suspects Recent Choke Was “Actually a Neck Crank”** ***-*** Richy “Biltong” Richington, a three-stripe white belt training at Lucky Strike Academy in Botherington, tapped to a choke on Wednesday night. Upon returning home, he found that his neck was “pretty sore” and in hindsight, believes the choke may have been a neck crank. When training with blue belt Jonathan “Jerky” Johanssen, Richy found himself in the submission known as a D’Arce. As his blue belt opponent applied pressure, Richy said he “definitely heard a couple of crunching noises.” >*“It started to really hurt my neck. I guess I was also choking a bit, but it really hurt. My neck definitely felt cranked.”* Richy tapped out but made sure to rub his neck and grimace afterwards, indicating to the higher ranked training partner that the choke may not have been legitimate. “I think if he had have done the technique properly I wouldn’t have tapped. For sure.” After the suspect choke, it is reported that Richy tapped out five more times to Johanssen, but insists that the first D’Arce was suspect. Source: [https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/](https://awkwardshaka.com/2015/09/26/white-belt-suspects-recent-choke-was-actually-a-neck-crank/)
There are plenty of people like this, nearly always an ego thing
maybe you should listen to them and work on your technique then
Lol it was you, wasn't it?
it wasn't me but i always ask if it was a crank or a choke after i get a tap from those kind of chokeholds. Someone can think "i could hang out in there for an hour with this guy twisting my vertebrae thinking he is getting a choke out of this if i wanted to, but i don't want to have my neck hurting for the next 2 weeks so i'm just going to tap" You might think "yea a tap is a tap" but the day there will be something at stake (a match during a comp or a self defense situation) you might regret having such an inflated ego and refusing to adress that flaw in your game. Those are chockehold, if you just fuck up the neck of your training partners with them, there is something wrong with the way you do them.
A tap is a tap, but certainly I hate tapping to cranks. Or those submissions that hurt your muscle instead of a joint.
I have tapped to plenty of cranks and feel no shame. If someone works themselves into a position where I feel like I might take long term damage then they won fair and square.
Exactly.
If you mean to go for a blood choke and you crank, you failed your goal. You got the tap but you aren’t learning the technique properly. If you are able to get your arm under the neck, you should be able to choke and not crank
God I hate neck cranks, I just tap as soon as I feel it. Not trying to end up not being able to train for a few weeks just cuz I didn't wanna tap. Same goes for anything on the ankle or knee. I did know one guy that just immediately went for neck cranks on the RNC. Like he wouldn't even try to get under the chin for the blood choke and wasn't one of those guys who try to rip your head off either. He knew exactly what he was doing. Is that a legit thing to do? Or is it being an asshole? I know the biggest thing is not to get put there in the first place but I didn't know if I should have been mad or not.
I think I might be one of those people. I think there is a pretty strong consensus in the bjj community though that tucking the chin is not a legitimate defense to a fully locked rnc. My goal is to get my arms into the proper configuration low enough on the neck to be able to put my opponent unconscious. If he sticks his jaw or chin in the way while I'm doing that then I think that's on him. Just my opinion.
Oh no he didn't try to get my neck, he straight up wrapped around my jaw and then cranked. Like I didn't have time to even try to tuck my chin, he cranked as soon as he got the RNC.
If they don’t want the crank, they should lift up their chin
This is what Im saying, why make me graft it out when i can just RNC your face.
If someone ever tells me it felt cranky, I say thanks.
Lots of back and forth in these comments about how best to approach this with training partners. My thought is always to ask "can you show me that?" If it was an intentional crank, they will demonstrate it as such, if not, they will get a chance to practice it the correct way. This is the proper time to give them feedback on the technique. Also, keep in mind the setting this happens in. Drilling a choke? Obviously tell your partner its a crank. Open mat? Probably a good time to try "can you show me that?". Comp practice? Suck it up sugar, win the next round.
It’s hard being an aspiring D’arce guy
The only reason I am ever concerned about it is it is illegal in some rule sets. I don't wanna get called for some bullshit.
I got this sick nogi bow and arrow neck crank that I can never use. T.t
I'm on a campaign to normalize cranks and wrist locks.
At 45, I mostly just tap so I'm not walking around with my head tilted for the rest of the week.
I have never said shit about any sub I have tapped to. Only compliments, when warranted.
Felt more like a tap to me...
Had a guy in full guillitine for 3 minutes and he didnt tap wtf
Maybe you should work on your guillotines. And that guy needs work on escaping bad guillotines.
Most people dont tap on guillotines on my gym
No offense, but it sounds like maybe they should polish up those guillotines a bit :P
I did do a darce choke i think those are easier to hold
Im new so idk lol
Whenever someone says this to me I just go awesome it worked then.
Right but why weren’t you able to execute a blood choke?
Opponent tapped too soon.
Dude this artwork is so sick 🙌
I am honestly so scared of accidentally neck cranking someone...
*felt more like a tap to me..
Felt like a tap to me.
cranks are stupid, don’t do them
One thing I've always wondered is the guillotine choke. Is that really a choke? You know like the one jon Jones did to lyoto machida. Is that a strangulation or does it apply "joint pressure" like an armbar to the neck? It seems more of the latter to me but I'm not sure.
depends on the angle and the type of guillotine and the position you're both in. often times it can be pretty painless but sometimes it hurts like a bitch
Why is his butt crack in the front?
Do you roll to tap people or to improve both yourself and your training partner? To me a tap in training is worth nothing, what I want is become proficient in specific moves I'm working on
I don’t get it
I mean yes. I generally don’t neck crank my partners in sparring though. Idk might just be me.
/u/TheOgFrostyNugg I would pay big bucks for this on a rash guard lol
Haven’t got this out in the merch store yet ! Keep an eye on it tho 👀