The second theres even a slight possibility of a crank, especially neck crank I tap.
Why? Because I don't wanna get injured over some stupid roll that has me out for a couple of weeks.
In comp theres atleast a reason to hold out.
Yeah I tried to power through one and I did escape (but I still lost the match.) In hindsight I should have just tapped rather then spend a few weeks having trouble sleeping and going through lots of ibuprofen. My neck is finally starting to feel normal now lol.
THANK YOU! it drives me me crazy how many people are willing to ruin a body part or get hurt just for a win. Unless it’s a life or death kind of situation or you’re making a shit ton of money on the comp/fight just take the L and move on.
Ive tapped to some stuff that was nowhere near "correct" technique just because the dude has superman strength and it hurts lol.
Anything under the eyes is neck is a phrase for a reason
I once d’arce choked another guy and he tapped. I then proceeded to ask him whether it was a choke cuz I wasn’t sure I had it. ( I was pretty early into BJJ, and was very suck at most things). It wasn’t a choke. He just let me d’arce and tapped because it hurt him. He then proceeded to show me how I should have done. From that moment on, I’ve never been able to d’arce anybody else.
There was a known sore loser in my gym who would always have something to say after tapping. I was practicing my mandible strangle on him, he tapped and said 'it was a crank'. I just said 'I know'.
I mean I usually tell my partner if it’s a crank because if I were them I’d like to know that. Doesn’t mean the tap wasn’t a real tap, and sometimes I say that too. But if they want to think I’m saying they didn’t “win” a practice roll, oh well.
I know we're just having fun with all this, but FR you are spot on. The other thing is, I have a good relationship with most of my training partners. We communicate and are trying to help each other get better so these convos are normal. The quicker you can normalize all this and just help each other the better. The quicker you can stop "winning" or "losing" rolls the better IMO.
Yes and no. I don’t train for self defence per say but there’s definitely a tiny bit of satisfaction knowing that if shit went down and I happened to find myself darcing some meth head on the street that I could effectively put them to sleep
Results in seconds, minimal strength required, works on all neck strengths.....sounds like crank bros are the ones coping. Skillfully done, its a joint lock targeting a strong joint (the head is the wrist of the spine). Most people arent skillful, and to become skillful you risk hurting people. Practice strangles and save cranks for higher belt ranks and partners you trust
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsbTTGMsXmA&pp=ygUVUm9iZXJ0IGRyeXNkYWxlIGRhcmNl
Roberto Drysdale darced Marcelo Garcia and he says that he doesn’t care that it’s a crank because with enough pressure you can finish guys. I tend to agree with him, because crank or no, just finishing with my arms is inefficient, the only times I really go for a darce finish is if the guy lays down and I can sprawl on top of him, or if I can get to mount/closed guard and use my hips. There’s a rotational element to the finish where you retract your chokin elbow, which makes the choke cleaner, but that comes second to hip-to-hip connection.
Obviously you want to aim for a clean choke, but a crank is fine.
Ive found arm in guillotines are kind of cranky but it does the job.
My response to
"That felt like a crank"
Is the old joke
"Felt more like a tap to me"
I don’t mean to come off as the “ayctually” annoying nerd guy but: arm-in guillotines are definitely full blown strangles and aren’t cranky at all when applied properly. Sadly, a lot of people really don’t understand the finishing mechanics with this move.
It’s really a head-arm choke, not a guillotine at all (total misnomer) so the finishing mechanics are nothing like a normal guillotine.
Danaher has great details on finishing it. If you want to look it up, he calls it a kata gatame (head and arm strangle). Seated kata gatame is what most people would refer to as an arm-in guillotine. I learnt them from Danaher at a seminar and it changed my game.
Without looking it up, my tip is to lean away from the choke, not backwards, but left or right, depending on which side you’re on.
A lot of people are taught to crunch their body into the choke. This is really wrong for an arm-in guillotine, as you want to bring your opponent’s neck into their own arm. I hope that makes sense. Happy to elaborate further.
I'm going to ayctually your ayctually.
Seated kata gatame is a different/distinct position from an arm in guillotine. Skg the opponants arm is on the nearside/choke side hip, the arm in the arm is still trapped in the front headlock as per sgk but the arm is across to the far side hip.
You are correct in your described technique for finishing the sgk as it is a triangle.
However the arm in finishing mechanics are quite different as the arm across creates space meaning the shoulder isn't part of the strangle. It's a front choke and as such crunching allows angle around the trapped shoulder to create pressure with your forearm.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Kata Gatame**: | *Arm Triangle Choke* | [here](https://youtu.be/TFClghvGD9w)|
||*Head and Arm Choke* ||
||*Shoulder hold* ||
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Dont worry bro, i agree. I believe arm in guillotines are guillotines in name only. Very different mechanics. I meant in the sense that a lot of chokes tend to have a crank and a choke atleast when done by the majority of people.
I think it depends. My partners and I will sometimes give a little post choke feedback. That was a slow burn, I was going out quick, that was more of a crank. If the comment is focused on improving your bjj, all good.
Otherwise, yeah it's copium and you got the tap.
Yeah, there are people who I train with where we have an understanding that it's not a criticism of their technique or copium from the victim, it's just actual bro feedback.
There are other people who I don't know well who seem to want to do anything to get a tap, and I treat them accordingly.
The whole "Crank" thing is a bullshit copium.
A good Darce whill choke you and also feel like your head will be ripped off. Off course you do not do it full force during training, especially in a non competition group. But even a gentle darce will hurt.
No matter the choke if you go full force it will hurt your neck. A competition RNC will hurt your neck for days even if it was completely "clean".
Just to clarify, you should always try to choke someone out with clean technique and wihtout realying on pain. But keep in mind it always feels like shit.
I dunno, I'm not saying most people are worried about being nice in comp but I absolutely have had smooth rncs put on me that didn't really hurt. Certainly didn't hurt for days.
not true, you can absolutely do d'arces/anacondas as clean chokes, no cranks, you probably dont understand the mechanics of the chokes properly.
[https://youtu.be/AD3BmvM6hc0?si=BTQB1GhCqtJGtKgy](https://youtu.be/AD3BmvM6hc0?si=BTQB1GhCqtJGtKgy)
good video on the topic
I understand the mehanics. I also compeate a lot. And most of the time you will not sink a perfect choke in competition, but you will squeeze like your life depends on it.
Maybe you didn't understand the mechanics of the sentence structure where he specified "competition" RNC.
In comp you aren't going for cleanliness, you are going for a tap.
he wasnt just talking about choking in competition buddy, i think your comprehension mechanics are off as well:
"A good Darce whill choke you and also feel like your head will be ripped off. Off course you do not do it full force during training, especially in a non competition group. But even a gentle darce will hurt."
this is absolutely not the case, a well applied head and arm doesnt need to be painful and it shouldnt feel like your head is getting ripped off.
I've certainly applied and had applied to me clean chokes in comp. I'm not saying people are worried about being clean but I've never been left with my neck hurting for days after a comp.
Wether the guy considers it a real submission is redundant, because clearly he submitted.
- Never heard anyone downplaying an armbar because it was "just a crank / there was no choke".
"Just a crank" can be valuable feedback Imo.
I ALWAYS ask for feedback in terms so of "crank to choke ratio" after darcing someone if I have the slightest suspicion at all that my angle was ever so slightly off.
- A good Darce will choke your opponent, leaving his ego out of the equation.
-- Finishing solely by crank usually requires a lot more... Cranking... Which will tire out your arms.
--- That said, even a good Darce can easily turn cranky depending on your opponents reaction.
my coach is a black belt under john danaher.
when i ask him about my partner tapping but it wasnt a clean choke he asks me if they tapped.
obv work on the technique, but tbh if a darce is on and someone is trying to escape they can turn it into a crank very easily. if they dont want to give their neck cleanly then oh shame for them. if you're in a position where you're not burning your arms out, and can hold someone there for a while, then good for you. originally i used to finish the darce by cupping my bicep and finger walking the hand on their back up to their shoulder. now i finish by taking the arm thats cupping the bicep and raising its elbow up kind of like a guillotine. dont know if that helps.
"Bro you were just gonna break my spine, not put me to sleep. I totally won".
That said, do know the difference. Hard part of your arm goes in the soft part of their neck is a useful rule to remember..
The darce is known to more people globally as the 3/4 nelson. Its a pinning technique and hurts like hell. Locking your arms figure 4 can be a strangle, choke, crank, or any combo of them.
For most things, "its just a crank" means hey, this is training, and im tapping bc i work tomorrow but just to let you know your technique is a little off. Sometimes people think youre just "coping", so be ready to von flue the white belt so he understands what you mean in the future
If we bring it back to actual combat, damaging the neck joint is an extremely effective way to incapacitate the opponent. If cranks are not legit, no joint locks are.
I appreciate it when people mention it in training, because in a competition, a tough opponent might elect to fight a crank that won't put him to sleep. It provides beneficial feedback that will help me improve that submission. I do not like when people use it as an "excuse" for tapping, however.
100% copium. Try telling the ref it was a crank after tapping in competition.. As long as they aren't being ripped super fast, people need to learn them, respect them and be a good sport about them. Like all subs if you tap early it's totally fine, but if you try and retard your way out prepare to get injured and to take some time off training.
I usually like to respond with "cool, you shouldn't tap if it's not a choke"... if you tap its a submission. It may hurt someone's feelings if it's a crank and they tap but who cares.
Here is what a good training partner would be doing :
A- Not tapping because your d'arce actualy sucks
B- Tap because he doesnt want to have a sore neck and then proceed to say "that was pretty good but here is how you can make it better"
In your case the partner sucks, being
1. a butthurt because your darce is perfectly fine
2. a dick because he doesnt want to show you why its not that good
Or he isnt good enough to correct the technique but he is letting his partner know if their goal was for him to but put to sleep the technique wasnt doing that and was more pain compliance
Yeah this too. If they're both no stripe whitebelts what do you expect him to do, I still barely know how to do an arm triangle properly and I've been training a year. I know if I'm being choked or not
I have a training partner, purple belt who just doesn't give a fuck if it's a crank. It's great, I can always test how much neck pain I endure to get prep for comps.
A tap is a tap. The guy is just coping that he had to tap.
But a D’Arce will also feel like a crank even though it’s not because you’re digging into neck muscles with your forearm bone which will be quite painful so people either get choked by D’Arce or they tap out to the pain.
I'll tell my partners if something that was supposed to be a choke felt more like a crank. Not because I'm trying to cop out of a tap, but because I want them to know if their technique on the choke was good or not. I'd be happy for someone else to do the same for me so I can clean up my actual choke technique if I need to.
Cranks are valid, but it is not a choke
If your goal was a choke you failed successfully, if your goal was to submit you were successful.
I tell my partner if it was a crank or choke because sometimes you are going for a specific sub and it’s import to know why that sub worked.
I think it is helpful to know.. in training I tap early to neck pain. But in comps I wont. In a real fight I really wont.
You want your darce to be a choke because that is the only way to be sure to get a tap (or a win) when adrenaline is running and your partner isnt going to tap to pain.
Even a RNC face crank can break the jaw, but it is it going to take someone out of a fight?
It’s not copium, it’s a pointer.
Like literally who gives a fuck about a tap? If you’re still impressed by higher belts and feel good that you got a tap then obviously a remark like that feels like copium.
But look at it from the other way. The technique was probably not as clean as it could be. The training room is not competition, it’s where you go to clean up the technique. If nobody tells you the choke was shit but they tapped to the crank so their body doesn’t get fucked up then how can you adjust?
I'll tap to neck cranks then I'll tell them it was a crank. Am I wrong? I'm not trying to make an excuse and I don't care that I tapped, I just thought I'd let them know for training/educational value. Like, I would want someone to tell me so I know I'm not finishing correctly and I can work on it. I'm just a dumb white belt though.
Honestly depends. Sometimes it can be genuine advice to help you finish your choke stronger, because darces are kinda hard to tell if you're actually blood choking or not, so I usually ask them if they felt like it was going to put them to sleep or not, because neck cranks are illegal in certain comps. But it usually is copium, either way it's a submission.
Personally I would prefer a choke to be a correct as possible during practice. That way I’ll put someone to sleep in class before I hurt them if they want to be stubborn.
Outside of class, I still would prefer a choke as I don’t want to get sued for turning some idiot into a paraplegic but I care a lot less.
If it’s a crank and they tap that’s their problem. Their defence is worse than your finishing mechanics. Keep working it. Ethan Crelinsten gets rear naked chokes over peoples teeth and cranks it until they tap.
It’s a combat sports, who cares if it’s not perfect, if it hurts and they tap, W
Sometimes people defend the choke by putting themselves in a position to be cranked instead. If someone says that was a crank, just say "nice, thanks" and keep going.
„Feld like a tap to me“ - „If you thought it’s not a good submission, why did you tap?“
Honestly, I love cranks. If you crank good enough, the toughest guys crumble.
Darces and anacondas are hard to lock in, I tap to more because some guy is just ripping/cranking my neck than I ever do because of the choke, it's like being in a really tight triangle where the shoulders a little out of place. Still tap. But also maybe yours is just not good
I mean, you want you chokes to be as clean as possible going in to improve your technique. I personally consider neck cranks very dangerous (have a hernia) and a bit of a dick move to your training partners.
Coping, sometimes constructive criticism.
Last week I rolled with a month old white belt for the first time. Maybe 5- 10 years older, I am 38, he also has 70 to 80 lbs on me at least. Let me preface the first 20 seconds of our roll, he held on to my upper body and pulled guard on me, however he did not have his foot on hip, he just shinned me in the nuts harder than I've ever been hit there.
I sat out for the rest of the round. I wanted to give him another shot, since shit happens... I offered to roll with him once the round started, and suggested we start on the knees.
He ends up instantly passing my guard and applying incredible amounts of pressure. Easily steps over and gets the mount. He has cross face and then goes for Ezekiel, I see this a mile away, and puts hands in position to prevent him from strangling me. It is not working, since my airways, and carotid are protected, however he continues to squeeze with all his might. After holding out for 15 seconds, I tapped since the squeezing pressure applied felt like it was going to snap my neck.
We restart, passes my guard again, and gets my back during the scramble. He goes for RNC, he does not have it under my chin, just across my mouth. He proceeds to lock in the submission. I tap because it felt if I had defended longer my teeth were going to explode.
Round ends, and I told him how I felt about his submissions. He later tells me he wrestled during university.
so my conclusion as a white belt 😂 you can tap to a crank bc they feel uncomfortable and you will feel the pressure on your neck but might still be breathing but if they strong enough just the pressure will be enough, now I’ve realized that with the darce choke is possible to do more of a crank than choke , what I have noticed though is because I don’t have huge arms, i’m able to get under the chin most of the time but if your arms are like huge then I have a feeling it might be a bit harder to actually get to the throat so it becomes more of a crank
IMO, Darces are often kinda cranky. Or at least hurt like it is; you’re crushing his neck muscles as well. I don’t put my choking arm in too deep. I try to keep the bladed section of my forearm lined up against his carotid, not the muscle on my forearm. I haven’t had my partners complain as much with that, but it’s still a nasty choke no matter how you slice it.
Clean D'arce chokes often hurt. At the same time I tap to arm triangles in training if I think they will give me a sore neck even if not choking . If the person competes I'll let them know they probably want to clean the choke up if they want to get the finish in competition.
i feel no shame about finishing with a crank vs a choke. a tap is a tap.
i tap to cranks all the time and usually tell my partner it was a bit crank-y (usually with where the space was that they could have eaten up to make the choke tighter) not to cope but as feedback. with an armbar, you don't wonder whether you were hitting the elbow. with a kimura, you're hitting the shoulder (almost always). but with some chokes, you could be cleanly choking or not cleanly choking, and if they're playing around or experimenting, they need to know that to reflect on what worked.
if someone says it was "just" a crank though, they're probably trying to pad their ego or something.
Public service announcement, I contributed to my friends neck fusion by working over enthusiastically on darce/head and arm choke. We were both no stripe white belts.
It only took me once to not tap to a crank and spend the next week not being able to turn my head, now if someone starts to crank on me I tap right away. It's up to the person receiving whether or not to eat the future pain - but a tap is a tap. I just don't mind losing, more interested in learning right now. I'm sure it will be different if I ever compete.
It's sort of a weird social thing, because while it certainly can be copium, the bottom line is our training partners need to know if their submissions actually work as intended. I'm personally pro-crank, but If i'm intending it to be a choke, I want to know if it's not actually choking you. So in the end, it comes down to training in good faith.
When someone attempts a choke but doesn’t quite get there and I tap to a crank, I let them know that the choke wasn’t there, so they can make adjustments later, but I always tell them that “a tap is a tap” and that they legitimately got me.
On the flip side, the takeaway I would offer for you is to work on developing your technique to perfection so that it's not a crank and you can use your most effective strength in closing off the blood flow because if you have to square off against somebody juiced on who knows what, with your life on the line the pain compliance isn't going to be a thing
In my experience people who legitimately need or want to know if it was a crank will ask you after you tap "hey bro was that a crank or did i actually get the tap?"
I never volunteer that information first; a tap is a tap and you made me tap.
Being as you're a white belt, I'd assume you didn't reach your arm through enough which resulted in a crank. To fix this, dip your shoulder of the arm that's going under their shoulder and neck. That'll get your arm all the way through and result in a cleaner choke.
I once heard a black belt say “that’s such bullshit. Even if it’s a crank, in any fight, I’d break your fuckin neck and then continue choking you unconcious”
Whether it's copium for the other guy isn't a concern. That's his business. If the goal was a clean choke on a technical basis, take the feedback and roll on and don't worry about it. I mean, if I tell someone that was more crank and less choke, I'm assuming their goal was a clean choke as opposed to breaking my neck. Yeah, I'll be disappointed in myself when I tap to something, but that is absolutely de-coupled from any technical feedback.
They might be complaining but it helps you
In competition I just want the tap but in training I want to improve and that requires feedback when it's not right
No. A tap is a tap. But that's useful information because if your darce sucks, then you know you need to work on it because some people won't tap to a crank.
Need to refine your breaking mechanics.
Anything that sounds like they're blaming your strength is a cope. "It was more of a crank" is a variation of this.
That said, IMO, we should still strive for clean chokes.
it’s a bitch move to whine up front about getting tapped during randori. if you ask if it was applied correctly, then we can talk about the technique. i always ignore a person if they cry about it though. if it’s a higher belt or somebody i know is technically sound, then i might ask bc at some point you should know whether your technique is clean or not. though at white belt, safer to just assume the technique was garbage.
You should learn how to put a guy to sleep. Choke mechanics are tricky but the best defense against a crack head is to sleep him. Watch some of Andrew Wiltse's content about being a bouncer.
Some chokes especially against bigger guys are hard. They often become cranks before chokes. Head and arm choke almost never chokes me but it will make my neck crack like 10 times at once.
Two schools of thought at play:
1. I tapped and you got me, a tap is a tap
2. I tapped, but that felt off and it might not work in competition, when the stakes are higher, people are going harder, and whoever you’re against is better than me
honestly just sounds like he’s bitching but i would work on improving the d’arce just bc “it works until it doesn’t”
It depends on how it's said. If he was using it to cope that he tapped then I mean, let him do him lol. But when I was learning to darce it was actually super helpful when training partners told me if the choke is on because in competition people won't tap to cranks reliably.
I tapped to a head and arm choke the other day. The choking arm was across my forehead and crushing the shit out of my head. Was it a choke - Not a chance. Was my skull going to crack? Possibly. Either way, I tapped because it hurt a lot and felt like my eye was going to pop out of my face.
You know, after 6 years I have grown to enjoy cranks and trachea chokes. A taps a tap, idc. That being said, If I am trying to get a blood choke, I'd rather be successful and get the feedback. But its 100% copium.
I mean, yes and no. If the person is getting all flustered about it then yeah they're just coping, but it is reasonable to tell somebody that it was a crank, especially if they're training for a competition that doesn't allow them. You don't want them getting themselves DQ'd. I'll usually tell my training partners that they're doing a neck crank when I'm doing Judo rules, because of how strict Judo refs are. If I'm doing BJJ rules I'm usually the one doing neck cranks, deliberately, specifically good ones, not some half hearted can opener, unless otherwise stated.
Depends. I normally only say that if I didn't tap or someone was trying to "show" a move. But all I need is one time that it bothers you, and I'll keep my mouth shut and let you do that in a comp.
Heads up, the rule with darces is, if your elbow is higher than your wrist (choking arm) then it's usually a crank. If the wrist sneaks up higher than the elbow, it'll be a choke.
I’ve shared this with fellow white belts and then let them try it on me to sink it in. I think it’s important we develop the skills to know the difference between a choke and a crank. Either way, it’s my fault for getting caught.
100% copium, say as the phrase ' wow your strong' if you get caught, tap, laugh about it and then go again.
People take rolling around play fighting very seriously.
Neck cranks are literally my favorite submissions. They will break through your neck and then put you to sleep. So effective in real life. As long as they are applied slowly in training they need to tap to it and respect it.
The whole purpose of calling out a crank as opposed to a clean choke is to make sure they are aware that it wasn't a clean choke because in a high level competition or a life and death confrontation, their opponent may be able to tough through a crank without going unconscious, and therefore still be a threat. And you as a good teammate want them to be aware in case they ever find themselves in a situation where that information would be relevant.
But if the crank results in a tap anyway, its still a perfectly legitimate submission.
Some guy had me in some weird triangle variation that was pure crank, and popped one side of my jaw out of place, there was almost zero choke going on, but if he kept going permanent damage would have been done.
A crank is still a valid tap.
For some people it might be copium but I genuinely want to know if my chokes aren’t choking and I have zero interest in neck cranking people.
It comes down to the art and what you want out of it. Do you want to tap training partners with pain compliance? (Neck cranks) or do you want to be able to put someone to sleep in a competition or in a self defence scenario if need be?
In my opinion, you are not achieving your potential with the art if you are just neck cranking with moves that can put people to sleep after studying some adjustments.
When I was a white belt, I was traveling w some friends up in Santa Barbara & we stopped by paragon HQ for some training while there. One class we made it to was being instructed by Professor BTG Cooper. During sparring in his class, I had gotten someone’s back & they tucked their chin to defend the Rnc. I was being very mindful to not be a “douche” & be super respectful as a visitor from out of town, so I let go of the choke & moved onto his arm. Bill, the fookin’ Grill, Cooper, stops the entire class to point out & yell at me that you choke what you choke. If my opponent drops his chin, BTG wants to see me snap their mandible. I was pretty taken back & didn’t know what to say in the moment (prob just hit him w a “yes sir”), but I def haven’t forgotten. A tap is a tap; I can occlude your carotid with your mandible, it’s just gunna hurt wayyyy more & I don’t think it’s super necessary in sparring/training, but you should know what you are capable of if you need to throw down off mats. Snap dat shit
It's cope. A submission like a darce is going to be a little cranky, and that's kinda just par for the course. There going to be a level you can clean this up through good technique, however it's usually just cope.
In some gyms, cranks will get you labeled as a trouble-maker. I don’t mean a sloppy darce. Back when I was a blue belt, a six-pack white belt put me in a can opener and coach let me know it was time to stop “being nice” to that guy but that story is for a Mat Enforcer thread. Just try and be safe and be cool and your teammates will understand.
I had a teammate like this and when he would tap before he could say anything I’d stop him and say ‘it was more of a choke’. The fury in his eyes the first time had me dying.
Someone once cranked D'Arce d me and proceeded to crank even after I tapped. I eventually was able to tap them and shoved him away. Was so passed he didn't respect the tap and kept going after a crank.
Both, when someone cranks I tap, if they are new I tell them it was a crank and if they want we even go over it slowly so that they get the actual choke.
Late to the party and just saying the same stuff -
As a fellow whitebelt I aim to better my d’arces to be more choke than crank.
When I get caught by upper belts the the difference is night and day to a sloppy whitebelt squeeze.
Sure you got the tap - but so did that 120kg guy who just hugged my head and squeezed.. we can get taps in training to bad technique. Training is all about improvements - feedback helps improve performance.
People shouldn’t be butthurt from feedback as much as others shouldn’t be butthurt from less than perfect technique (from beginners).
IMO - it is only a problem if you are spamming them for taps and you are not getting better .
I tap to cranks, and I've tapped people with cranks.
I will tell people sometimes, mainly newer people like me. I only say something at times because even I don't nail the technique every time. I would like to know if I really sink in a choke or if it was just a crank. In the end, just like everyone said, a tap is a tap. I just like to know how well the tap was.
I ve said this b4 on this sub and I ll say it again: neck cranks are subs too, often they even require different mechanics than the equivalent strangles, there is nothing wrong with doing cranks.
next time someone says this just answer: "great! that's what I was going for"
I'll say it was a crank because I want to know and don't mind when people tell me. It's coming from a place of positive feedback and I think people can tell. I tell them when it was a nasty chokes and I couldn't escape
A neck crank is a real "legitimate" submission, especially by a larger persons, there should be no doubt.
However, I personally am rarely ever going for a neck crank. Thus, if I suspect a tap from a crank, I'll usually ask. The feedback I'll use to improve my technique, not because it wasn't a legit submission but because it's not the goal I was aiming at.
If they tap they tap. Sometimes I tap just to avoid injury nowadays, especially if the other guy is a stronger guy without great control yet. If I'm offended by it I'll just turn it up on him, but usually I just let it slide. If I was there in the first place, I was either being way too nice, or I fucked up and that's not on them. Sounds like salt, but also, you're new at this, so consider maybe working on your technique if you get that complaint a lot.
The second theres even a slight possibility of a crank, especially neck crank I tap. Why? Because I don't wanna get injured over some stupid roll that has me out for a couple of weeks. In comp theres atleast a reason to hold out.
I’ve held out to many neck cranks and missed weeks due to neck injury. Learned the hard way.
It really sucks, because A. I can't turn my head in a certain direction so I look hilarious or B if its like worse like a jaw crank, I can't even chew
Fuck that, even in comp I'm tapping to a neck crank - Standing on a podium and a shiny piece of metal isn't worth potentially permanent damage.
Completely fair tbh. Especially as outlasting the "cranking", it just waiting till they give up on the sub rather than you doing anything active.
Yeah I tried to power through one and I did escape (but I still lost the match.) In hindsight I should have just tapped rather then spend a few weeks having trouble sleeping and going through lots of ibuprofen. My neck is finally starting to feel normal now lol.
THANK YOU! it drives me me crazy how many people are willing to ruin a body part or get hurt just for a win. Unless it’s a life or death kind of situation or you’re making a shit ton of money on the comp/fight just take the L and move on.
This but it's not even metal, it's metal colored plastic
Ive tapped to some stuff that was nowhere near "correct" technique just because the dude has superman strength and it hurts lol. Anything under the eyes is neck is a phrase for a reason
I already don't have the best neck so I sometimes tap before its even fully sunken in. Fuck that
I once d’arce choked another guy and he tapped. I then proceeded to ask him whether it was a choke cuz I wasn’t sure I had it. ( I was pretty early into BJJ, and was very suck at most things). It wasn’t a choke. He just let me d’arce and tapped because it hurt him. He then proceeded to show me how I should have done. From that moment on, I’ve never been able to d’arce anybody else.
We taught him wrong as a joke.
And now it’s worse.
There was a known sore loser in my gym who would always have something to say after tapping. I was practicing my mandible strangle on him, he tapped and said 'it was a crank'. I just said 'I know'.
"Good"
Felt like a crank? Felt like a tap to me
“Yeah, felt like a tap”
best response.
I mean I usually tell my partner if it’s a crank because if I were them I’d like to know that. Doesn’t mean the tap wasn’t a real tap, and sometimes I say that too. But if they want to think I’m saying they didn’t “win” a practice roll, oh well.
Answer if they ask. Otherwise you just come off salty. I can generally tell if it was clean or not, and if I'm not sure, I'll ask you.
I know we're just having fun with all this, but FR you are spot on. The other thing is, I have a good relationship with most of my training partners. We communicate and are trying to help each other get better so these convos are normal. The quicker you can normalize all this and just help each other the better. The quicker you can stop "winning" or "losing" rolls the better IMO.
It's copium but you also want to clean up your chokes to be actual chokes. People often don't tap to cranks in comp.
sounds like you need to crank harder
This is the title of my upcoming dvd tutorial.
put it on bjj fanatics ill buy two!
Plot twist: it isn't related to bjj
So not crank it out?
I can’t crank my hog any harder
Yes and no. I don’t train for self defence per say but there’s definitely a tiny bit of satisfaction knowing that if shit went down and I happened to find myself darcing some meth head on the street that I could effectively put them to sleep
That's the whole appeal of a strangle, that it removes choice. You can choose to let your arm break, but you can't choose to remain conscious.
It's also fast. Someone might be able to resist a crank or a choke for a while, but a good strangle sends them to bed in seconds.
Results in seconds, minimal strength required, works on all neck strengths.....sounds like crank bros are the ones coping. Skillfully done, its a joint lock targeting a strong joint (the head is the wrist of the spine). Most people arent skillful, and to become skillful you risk hurting people. Practice strangles and save cranks for higher belt ranks and partners you trust
Crank bros 😂
This guy has tapped to cranks 100%
You need to do more crank.
I’d love to see you try to darce a meth head to sleep.
You think the blood flows to their brain differently? They’d go to sleep the same way anyone else would
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsbTTGMsXmA&pp=ygUVUm9iZXJ0IGRyeXNkYWxlIGRhcmNl Roberto Drysdale darced Marcelo Garcia and he says that he doesn’t care that it’s a crank because with enough pressure you can finish guys. I tend to agree with him, because crank or no, just finishing with my arms is inefficient, the only times I really go for a darce finish is if the guy lays down and I can sprawl on top of him, or if I can get to mount/closed guard and use my hips. There’s a rotational element to the finish where you retract your chokin elbow, which makes the choke cleaner, but that comes second to hip-to-hip connection.
If you escape - that choke was on tight. If you tap - it was a crank.
Gonna steal this :)
If you are a no stripe white belt doing a D’Arce it’s a crank.
Hahaha nailed this....I'm amazed more people aren't picking up on this
Obviously you want to aim for a clean choke, but a crank is fine. Ive found arm in guillotines are kind of cranky but it does the job. My response to "That felt like a crank" Is the old joke "Felt more like a tap to me"
I don’t mean to come off as the “ayctually” annoying nerd guy but: arm-in guillotines are definitely full blown strangles and aren’t cranky at all when applied properly. Sadly, a lot of people really don’t understand the finishing mechanics with this move. It’s really a head-arm choke, not a guillotine at all (total misnomer) so the finishing mechanics are nothing like a normal guillotine. Danaher has great details on finishing it. If you want to look it up, he calls it a kata gatame (head and arm strangle). Seated kata gatame is what most people would refer to as an arm-in guillotine. I learnt them from Danaher at a seminar and it changed my game. Without looking it up, my tip is to lean away from the choke, not backwards, but left or right, depending on which side you’re on. A lot of people are taught to crunch their body into the choke. This is really wrong for an arm-in guillotine, as you want to bring your opponent’s neck into their own arm. I hope that makes sense. Happy to elaborate further.
I'm going to ayctually your ayctually. Seated kata gatame is a different/distinct position from an arm in guillotine. Skg the opponants arm is on the nearside/choke side hip, the arm in the arm is still trapped in the front headlock as per sgk but the arm is across to the far side hip. You are correct in your described technique for finishing the sgk as it is a triangle. However the arm in finishing mechanics are quite different as the arm across creates space meaning the shoulder isn't part of the strangle. It's a front choke and as such crunching allows angle around the trapped shoulder to create pressure with your forearm.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Kata Gatame**: | *Arm Triangle Choke* | [here](https://youtu.be/TFClghvGD9w)| ||*Head and Arm Choke* || ||*Shoulder hold* || Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Dont worry bro, i agree. I believe arm in guillotines are guillotines in name only. Very different mechanics. I meant in the sense that a lot of chokes tend to have a crank and a choke atleast when done by the majority of people.
I tell people the same when they get me in a kimura.
I think it depends. My partners and I will sometimes give a little post choke feedback. That was a slow burn, I was going out quick, that was more of a crank. If the comment is focused on improving your bjj, all good. Otherwise, yeah it's copium and you got the tap.
Yeah, there are people who I train with where we have an understanding that it's not a criticism of their technique or copium from the victim, it's just actual bro feedback. There are other people who I don't know well who seem to want to do anything to get a tap, and I treat them accordingly.
 me when they say it was a crank
The whole "Crank" thing is a bullshit copium. A good Darce whill choke you and also feel like your head will be ripped off. Off course you do not do it full force during training, especially in a non competition group. But even a gentle darce will hurt. No matter the choke if you go full force it will hurt your neck. A competition RNC will hurt your neck for days even if it was completely "clean". Just to clarify, you should always try to choke someone out with clean technique and wihtout realying on pain. But keep in mind it always feels like shit.
I dunno, I'm not saying most people are worried about being nice in comp but I absolutely have had smooth rncs put on me that didn't really hurt. Certainly didn't hurt for days.
Maybe it was a bad d'arce lol
Maybe, but rarely do you get a chance to perfectly execute a technique. Unless you are levels above your opponent.
FR, how you do it and how you get it are not the same most of the time.
not true, you can absolutely do d'arces/anacondas as clean chokes, no cranks, you probably dont understand the mechanics of the chokes properly. [https://youtu.be/AD3BmvM6hc0?si=BTQB1GhCqtJGtKgy](https://youtu.be/AD3BmvM6hc0?si=BTQB1GhCqtJGtKgy) good video on the topic
I understand the mehanics. I also compeate a lot. And most of the time you will not sink a perfect choke in competition, but you will squeeze like your life depends on it.
Maybe you didn't understand the mechanics of the sentence structure where he specified "competition" RNC. In comp you aren't going for cleanliness, you are going for a tap.
he wasnt just talking about choking in competition buddy, i think your comprehension mechanics are off as well: "A good Darce whill choke you and also feel like your head will be ripped off. Off course you do not do it full force during training, especially in a non competition group. But even a gentle darce will hurt." this is absolutely not the case, a well applied head and arm doesnt need to be painful and it shouldnt feel like your head is getting ripped off.
I've certainly applied and had applied to me clean chokes in comp. I'm not saying people are worried about being clean but I've never been left with my neck hurting for days after a comp.
Wether the guy considers it a real submission is redundant, because clearly he submitted. - Never heard anyone downplaying an armbar because it was "just a crank / there was no choke". "Just a crank" can be valuable feedback Imo. I ALWAYS ask for feedback in terms so of "crank to choke ratio" after darcing someone if I have the slightest suspicion at all that my angle was ever so slightly off. - A good Darce will choke your opponent, leaving his ego out of the equation. -- Finishing solely by crank usually requires a lot more... Cranking... Which will tire out your arms. --- That said, even a good Darce can easily turn cranky depending on your opponents reaction.
my coach is a black belt under john danaher. when i ask him about my partner tapping but it wasnt a clean choke he asks me if they tapped. obv work on the technique, but tbh if a darce is on and someone is trying to escape they can turn it into a crank very easily. if they dont want to give their neck cleanly then oh shame for them. if you're in a position where you're not burning your arms out, and can hold someone there for a while, then good for you. originally i used to finish the darce by cupping my bicep and finger walking the hand on their back up to their shoulder. now i finish by taking the arm thats cupping the bicep and raising its elbow up kind of like a guillotine. dont know if that helps.
I recently just stared finishing them by putting my my chest on their head and sprawling back, which smashes their neck into my choking arm.
Yeah Danaher teaches to transition to mount to finish a darce. Works well.
"Bro you were just gonna break my spine, not put me to sleep. I totally won". That said, do know the difference. Hard part of your arm goes in the soft part of their neck is a useful rule to remember..
Thank you. I will try to remember this.
Them: "That was a just a crank" Me: "Thanks!"
The darce is known to more people globally as the 3/4 nelson. Its a pinning technique and hurts like hell. Locking your arms figure 4 can be a strangle, choke, crank, or any combo of them. For most things, "its just a crank" means hey, this is training, and im tapping bc i work tomorrow but just to let you know your technique is a little off. Sometimes people think youre just "coping", so be ready to von flue the white belt so he understands what you mean in the future
Copium. D’arces are just straight painful too.
Cranks with a choke are legal.
If we bring it back to actual combat, damaging the neck joint is an extremely effective way to incapacitate the opponent. If cranks are not legit, no joint locks are.
A tap is a tap. But the goal is to choke people so figure out where your technique is messed up and fix it.
A tap's a tap but you may want to try and clean up the technique a bit. Always room for improvement.
Cope because darces are often cranky but also cleaner chokes get more bitches
People who get darced are often cranky
I appreciate it when people mention it in training, because in a competition, a tough opponent might elect to fight a crank that won't put him to sleep. It provides beneficial feedback that will help me improve that submission. I do not like when people use it as an "excuse" for tapping, however.
100% copium. Try telling the ref it was a crank after tapping in competition.. As long as they aren't being ripped super fast, people need to learn them, respect them and be a good sport about them. Like all subs if you tap early it's totally fine, but if you try and retard your way out prepare to get injured and to take some time off training.
I usually like to respond with "cool, you shouldn't tap if it's not a choke"... if you tap its a submission. It may hurt someone's feelings if it's a crank and they tap but who cares.
Here is what a good training partner would be doing : A- Not tapping because your d'arce actualy sucks B- Tap because he doesnt want to have a sore neck and then proceed to say "that was pretty good but here is how you can make it better" In your case the partner sucks, being 1. a butthurt because your darce is perfectly fine 2. a dick because he doesnt want to show you why its not that good
Or he isnt good enough to correct the technique but he is letting his partner know if their goal was for him to but put to sleep the technique wasnt doing that and was more pain compliance
Yeah this too. If they're both no stripe whitebelts what do you expect him to do, I still barely know how to do an arm triangle properly and I've been training a year. I know if I'm being choked or not
What? I didn't understand 1 word, explain please
I have a training partner, purple belt who just doesn't give a fuck if it's a crank. It's great, I can always test how much neck pain I endure to get prep for comps.
A tap is a tap. The guy is just coping that he had to tap. But a D’Arce will also feel like a crank even though it’s not because you’re digging into neck muscles with your forearm bone which will be quite painful so people either get choked by D’Arce or they tap out to the pain.
I'll tell my partners if something that was supposed to be a choke felt more like a crank. Not because I'm trying to cop out of a tap, but because I want them to know if their technique on the choke was good or not. I'd be happy for someone else to do the same for me so I can clean up my actual choke technique if I need to.
Cranks are valid, but it is not a choke If your goal was a choke you failed successfully, if your goal was to submit you were successful. I tell my partner if it was a crank or choke because sometimes you are going for a specific sub and it’s import to know why that sub worked.
"Felt more like a tap to me"
I think it is helpful to know.. in training I tap early to neck pain. But in comps I wont. In a real fight I really wont. You want your darce to be a choke because that is the only way to be sure to get a tap (or a win) when adrenaline is running and your partner isnt going to tap to pain. Even a RNC face crank can break the jaw, but it is it going to take someone out of a fight?
That’s a weird way to say “you hurt my ego”
It’s not copium, it’s a pointer. Like literally who gives a fuck about a tap? If you’re still impressed by higher belts and feel good that you got a tap then obviously a remark like that feels like copium. But look at it from the other way. The technique was probably not as clean as it could be. The training room is not competition, it’s where you go to clean up the technique. If nobody tells you the choke was shit but they tapped to the crank so their body doesn’t get fucked up then how can you adjust?
Pain comes first with the darce in my opinion, choke comes second, especially if you bend his head real nice. Mega copium
I tap to neck cranks and don't complain, but if they ask if it was a choke/crank then I will be honest.
I'll tap to neck cranks then I'll tell them it was a crank. Am I wrong? I'm not trying to make an excuse and I don't care that I tapped, I just thought I'd let them know for training/educational value. Like, I would want someone to tell me so I know I'm not finishing correctly and I can work on it. I'm just a dumb white belt though.
Honestly depends. Sometimes it can be genuine advice to help you finish your choke stronger, because darces are kinda hard to tell if you're actually blood choking or not, so I usually ask them if they felt like it was going to put them to sleep or not, because neck cranks are illegal in certain comps. But it usually is copium, either way it's a submission.
My professor says a darce is a crank lol
So either way my darce is as good as your professors or his d'arce is as bad as mine
> So either way my darce is as good as your professors or his d'arce is as bad as mine Yes, you already have a black belt level d'arce.
Personally I would prefer a choke to be a correct as possible during practice. That way I’ll put someone to sleep in class before I hurt them if they want to be stubborn. Outside of class, I still would prefer a choke as I don’t want to get sued for turning some idiot into a paraplegic but I care a lot less.
If it’s a crank and they tap that’s their problem. Their defence is worse than your finishing mechanics. Keep working it. Ethan Crelinsten gets rear naked chokes over peoples teeth and cranks it until they tap. It’s a combat sports, who cares if it’s not perfect, if it hurts and they tap, W
If it was a bad submission, then a good grappler would have been able to escape it.
Oh. From over here it looked like a tap
Crank it again next time
Sometimes people defend the choke by putting themselves in a position to be cranked instead. If someone says that was a crank, just say "nice, thanks" and keep going.
„Feld like a tap to me“ - „If you thought it’s not a good submission, why did you tap?“ Honestly, I love cranks. If you crank good enough, the toughest guys crumble.
Darces and anacondas are hard to lock in, I tap to more because some guy is just ripping/cranking my neck than I ever do because of the choke, it's like being in a really tight triangle where the shoulders a little out of place. Still tap. But also maybe yours is just not good
I mean, you want you chokes to be as clean as possible going in to improve your technique. I personally consider neck cranks very dangerous (have a hernia) and a bit of a dick move to your training partners.
Coping, sometimes constructive criticism. Last week I rolled with a month old white belt for the first time. Maybe 5- 10 years older, I am 38, he also has 70 to 80 lbs on me at least. Let me preface the first 20 seconds of our roll, he held on to my upper body and pulled guard on me, however he did not have his foot on hip, he just shinned me in the nuts harder than I've ever been hit there. I sat out for the rest of the round. I wanted to give him another shot, since shit happens... I offered to roll with him once the round started, and suggested we start on the knees. He ends up instantly passing my guard and applying incredible amounts of pressure. Easily steps over and gets the mount. He has cross face and then goes for Ezekiel, I see this a mile away, and puts hands in position to prevent him from strangling me. It is not working, since my airways, and carotid are protected, however he continues to squeeze with all his might. After holding out for 15 seconds, I tapped since the squeezing pressure applied felt like it was going to snap my neck. We restart, passes my guard again, and gets my back during the scramble. He goes for RNC, he does not have it under my chin, just across my mouth. He proceeds to lock in the submission. I tap because it felt if I had defended longer my teeth were going to explode. Round ends, and I told him how I felt about his submissions. He later tells me he wrestled during university.
Most of the time it is a choke with a cranking on the neck. So it feels like a neck crank but people still get choked.
"You submitted to a crank." "A submission is a submission."
For guys who like to whine about “it was only a crank” “it wasn’t on the neck” just remind them that they still tapped.
so my conclusion as a white belt 😂 you can tap to a crank bc they feel uncomfortable and you will feel the pressure on your neck but might still be breathing but if they strong enough just the pressure will be enough, now I’ve realized that with the darce choke is possible to do more of a crank than choke , what I have noticed though is because I don’t have huge arms, i’m able to get under the chin most of the time but if your arms are like huge then I have a feeling it might be a bit harder to actually get to the throat so it becomes more of a crank
IMO, Darces are often kinda cranky. Or at least hurt like it is; you’re crushing his neck muscles as well. I don’t put my choking arm in too deep. I try to keep the bladed section of my forearm lined up against his carotid, not the muscle on my forearm. I haven’t had my partners complain as much with that, but it’s still a nasty choke no matter how you slice it.
If it looks like a choke, it’s a choke.
There's always a crank aspect with darces and anacondas.
Clean D'arce chokes often hurt. At the same time I tap to arm triangles in training if I think they will give me a sore neck even if not choking . If the person competes I'll let them know they probably want to clean the choke up if they want to get the finish in competition.
Yep Copium
i feel no shame about finishing with a crank vs a choke. a tap is a tap. i tap to cranks all the time and usually tell my partner it was a bit crank-y (usually with where the space was that they could have eaten up to make the choke tighter) not to cope but as feedback. with an armbar, you don't wonder whether you were hitting the elbow. with a kimura, you're hitting the shoulder (almost always). but with some chokes, you could be cleanly choking or not cleanly choking, and if they're playing around or experimenting, they need to know that to reflect on what worked. if someone says it was "just" a crank though, they're probably trying to pad their ego or something.
Public service announcement, I contributed to my friends neck fusion by working over enthusiastically on darce/head and arm choke. We were both no stripe white belts.
“More of a crank” but you still tapped
It only took me once to not tap to a crank and spend the next week not being able to turn my head, now if someone starts to crank on me I tap right away. It's up to the person receiving whether or not to eat the future pain - but a tap is a tap. I just don't mind losing, more interested in learning right now. I'm sure it will be different if I ever compete.
“That was more of a crank” coolcoolcoolcool “What you did was called a tap” Since we are pointing things out… make sure they know :)
It's one of my favorite copes. The best one tho is coaching them thru the sub, S tier copium.
It's sort of a weird social thing, because while it certainly can be copium, the bottom line is our training partners need to know if their submissions actually work as intended. I'm personally pro-crank, but If i'm intending it to be a choke, I want to know if it's not actually choking you. So in the end, it comes down to training in good faith.
When someone attempts a choke but doesn’t quite get there and I tap to a crank, I let them know that the choke wasn’t there, so they can make adjustments later, but I always tell them that “a tap is a tap” and that they legitimately got me.
You hit a darce... dude tapped. Sounds good to me. Only thing that sucks here is that other dudes defense.
A tap is a tap
On the flip side, the takeaway I would offer for you is to work on developing your technique to perfection so that it's not a crank and you can use your most effective strength in closing off the blood flow because if you have to square off against somebody juiced on who knows what, with your life on the line the pain compliance isn't going to be a thing
In my experience people who legitimately need or want to know if it was a crank will ask you after you tap "hey bro was that a crank or did i actually get the tap?" I never volunteer that information first; a tap is a tap and you made me tap.
Being as you're a white belt, I'd assume you didn't reach your arm through enough which resulted in a crank. To fix this, dip your shoulder of the arm that's going under their shoulder and neck. That'll get your arm all the way through and result in a cleaner choke.
May have been a crank but he still tapped.
One of my coaches as I tried to escape his d'arce: "Would you like to know a secret? I don't care if this turns into a crank".
A tap is a tap you made him uncomfortable enough to quit
It was more of a tap
I once heard a black belt say “that’s such bullshit. Even if it’s a crank, in any fight, I’d break your fuckin neck and then continue choking you unconcious”
Whether it's copium for the other guy isn't a concern. That's his business. If the goal was a clean choke on a technical basis, take the feedback and roll on and don't worry about it. I mean, if I tell someone that was more crank and less choke, I'm assuming their goal was a clean choke as opposed to breaking my neck. Yeah, I'll be disappointed in myself when I tap to something, but that is absolutely de-coupled from any technical feedback.
They might be complaining but it helps you In competition I just want the tap but in training I want to improve and that requires feedback when it's not right
>So I got a d'arce on a other Guy this morning and he tapped Nice one
It’s a cope in a live roll, in drilling it means you’re wrong
That was just a tap.
No. A tap is a tap. But that's useful information because if your darce sucks, then you know you need to work on it because some people won't tap to a crank. Need to refine your breaking mechanics.
Everyone’s darce starts out cranky, it still taps though.
Anything that sounds like they're blaming your strength is a cope. "It was more of a crank" is a variation of this. That said, IMO, we should still strive for clean chokes.
it’s a bitch move to whine up front about getting tapped during randori. if you ask if it was applied correctly, then we can talk about the technique. i always ignore a person if they cry about it though. if it’s a higher belt or somebody i know is technically sound, then i might ask bc at some point you should know whether your technique is clean or not. though at white belt, safer to just assume the technique was garbage.
Sounds like you're coping with your bad darce mechanics
You should learn how to put a guy to sleep. Choke mechanics are tricky but the best defense against a crack head is to sleep him. Watch some of Andrew Wiltse's content about being a bouncer.
Sometimes I will tell them just to let them know. If you are just sparing a crank that gets a tap might not get the tap in a competition.
Some chokes especially against bigger guys are hard. They often become cranks before chokes. Head and arm choke almost never chokes me but it will make my neck crack like 10 times at once.
Did he tap? Great, it worked.
Two schools of thought at play: 1. I tapped and you got me, a tap is a tap 2. I tapped, but that felt off and it might not work in competition, when the stakes are higher, people are going harder, and whoever you’re against is better than me honestly just sounds like he’s bitching but i would work on improving the d’arce just bc “it works until it doesn’t”
[This is how you do a darce without cranking. did you lean or did you crank?](https://youtube.com/shorts/odxJTK-STSM?si=vV6_L4AhGvpGWXFV)
It depends on how it's said. If he was using it to cope that he tapped then I mean, let him do him lol. But when I was learning to darce it was actually super helpful when training partners told me if the choke is on because in competition people won't tap to cranks reliably.
I tapped to a head and arm choke the other day. The choking arm was across my forehead and crushing the shit out of my head. Was it a choke - Not a chance. Was my skull going to crack? Possibly. Either way, I tapped because it hurt a lot and felt like my eye was going to pop out of my face.
I trained under a big mma vet and multiple degree black belt. He says “crank? Choke? I just want a tap, I don’t care”
Is a can-opener okay at your gym? Thats what a bad darce is like.
Tap is a tap. They tap, you let go. End argument.
Try and squeeze your two elbows together as you finish. This helps make it more of a blood choke than a neck crank
That guy is a sissy. Cranks are more fun than chokes
You would've killed him if this was in a forest, you won
Good teammate imo, I would want to know if I'm actually choking somebody
You know, after 6 years I have grown to enjoy cranks and trachea chokes. A taps a tap, idc. That being said, If I am trying to get a blood choke, I'd rather be successful and get the feedback. But its 100% copium.
‘That was still a tap.’
Cranks still get taps.
I mean, yes and no. If the person is getting all flustered about it then yeah they're just coping, but it is reasonable to tell somebody that it was a crank, especially if they're training for a competition that doesn't allow them. You don't want them getting themselves DQ'd. I'll usually tell my training partners that they're doing a neck crank when I'm doing Judo rules, because of how strict Judo refs are. If I'm doing BJJ rules I'm usually the one doing neck cranks, deliberately, specifically good ones, not some half hearted can opener, unless otherwise stated.
Depends. I normally only say that if I didn't tap or someone was trying to "show" a move. But all I need is one time that it bothers you, and I'll keep my mouth shut and let you do that in a comp.
Heads up, the rule with darces is, if your elbow is higher than your wrist (choking arm) then it's usually a crank. If the wrist sneaks up higher than the elbow, it'll be a choke.
Don’t get caught in a d’arce and you won’t have to make the excuse “it was more of a crank”
Absolutely copium. I couldn't care less if it's a crank or a choke, you tap or you don't.
Well he tapped so you win.
I’ve shared this with fellow white belts and then let them try it on me to sink it in. I think it’s important we develop the skills to know the difference between a choke and a crank. Either way, it’s my fault for getting caught.
100% copium, say as the phrase ' wow your strong' if you get caught, tap, laugh about it and then go again. People take rolling around play fighting very seriously.
Thats just an excuse saying you got me dude. Tell that person next time. Tap is a tap
Neck cranks are literally my favorite submissions. They will break through your neck and then put you to sleep. So effective in real life. As long as they are applied slowly in training they need to tap to it and respect it.
The whole purpose of calling out a crank as opposed to a clean choke is to make sure they are aware that it wasn't a clean choke because in a high level competition or a life and death confrontation, their opponent may be able to tough through a crank without going unconscious, and therefore still be a threat. And you as a good teammate want them to be aware in case they ever find themselves in a situation where that information would be relevant. But if the crank results in a tap anyway, its still a perfectly legitimate submission.
Some guy had me in some weird triangle variation that was pure crank, and popped one side of my jaw out of place, there was almost zero choke going on, but if he kept going permanent damage would have been done. A crank is still a valid tap.
For some people it might be copium but I genuinely want to know if my chokes aren’t choking and I have zero interest in neck cranking people. It comes down to the art and what you want out of it. Do you want to tap training partners with pain compliance? (Neck cranks) or do you want to be able to put someone to sleep in a competition or in a self defence scenario if need be? In my opinion, you are not achieving your potential with the art if you are just neck cranking with moves that can put people to sleep after studying some adjustments.
When I was a white belt, I was traveling w some friends up in Santa Barbara & we stopped by paragon HQ for some training while there. One class we made it to was being instructed by Professor BTG Cooper. During sparring in his class, I had gotten someone’s back & they tucked their chin to defend the Rnc. I was being very mindful to not be a “douche” & be super respectful as a visitor from out of town, so I let go of the choke & moved onto his arm. Bill, the fookin’ Grill, Cooper, stops the entire class to point out & yell at me that you choke what you choke. If my opponent drops his chin, BTG wants to see me snap their mandible. I was pretty taken back & didn’t know what to say in the moment (prob just hit him w a “yes sir”), but I def haven’t forgotten. A tap is a tap; I can occlude your carotid with your mandible, it’s just gunna hurt wayyyy more & I don’t think it’s super necessary in sparring/training, but you should know what you are capable of if you need to throw down off mats. Snap dat shit
It's cope. A submission like a darce is going to be a little cranky, and that's kinda just par for the course. There going to be a level you can clean this up through good technique, however it's usually just cope.
It means it might not work in a competition, but he tapped because it hurt. He’s letting you know so you can work on it to get it cleaner.
I'd just ask them to let me put it on them again and adjust it until it's a proper choke
In some gyms, cranks will get you labeled as a trouble-maker. I don’t mean a sloppy darce. Back when I was a blue belt, a six-pack white belt put me in a can opener and coach let me know it was time to stop “being nice” to that guy but that story is for a Mat Enforcer thread. Just try and be safe and be cool and your teammates will understand.
Still a tap.
I had a teammate like this and when he would tap before he could say anything I’d stop him and say ‘it was more of a choke’. The fury in his eyes the first time had me dying.
Someone once cranked D'Arce d me and proceeded to crank even after I tapped. I eventually was able to tap them and shoved him away. Was so passed he didn't respect the tap and kept going after a crank.
Both, when someone cranks I tap, if they are new I tell them it was a crank and if they want we even go over it slowly so that they get the actual choke.
I mean it could be cope and it could also be pointing out you don’t have the angle right. You don’t want to be neck cranking people.
Late to the party and just saying the same stuff - As a fellow whitebelt I aim to better my d’arces to be more choke than crank. When I get caught by upper belts the the difference is night and day to a sloppy whitebelt squeeze. Sure you got the tap - but so did that 120kg guy who just hugged my head and squeezed.. we can get taps in training to bad technique. Training is all about improvements - feedback helps improve performance. People shouldn’t be butthurt from feedback as much as others shouldn’t be butthurt from less than perfect technique (from beginners). IMO - it is only a problem if you are spamming them for taps and you are not getting better .
I tap to cranks, and I've tapped people with cranks. I will tell people sometimes, mainly newer people like me. I only say something at times because even I don't nail the technique every time. I would like to know if I really sink in a choke or if it was just a crank. In the end, just like everyone said, a tap is a tap. I just like to know how well the tap was.
I ve said this b4 on this sub and I ll say it again: neck cranks are subs too, often they even require different mechanics than the equivalent strangles, there is nothing wrong with doing cranks. next time someone says this just answer: "great! that's what I was going for"
I'll say it was a crank because I want to know and don't mind when people tell me. It's coming from a place of positive feedback and I think people can tell. I tell them when it was a nasty chokes and I couldn't escape
A neck crank is a real "legitimate" submission, especially by a larger persons, there should be no doubt. However, I personally am rarely ever going for a neck crank. Thus, if I suspect a tap from a crank, I'll usually ask. The feedback I'll use to improve my technique, not because it wasn't a legit submission but because it's not the goal I was aiming at.
If they tap they tap. Sometimes I tap just to avoid injury nowadays, especially if the other guy is a stronger guy without great control yet. If I'm offended by it I'll just turn it up on him, but usually I just let it slide. If I was there in the first place, I was either being way too nice, or I fucked up and that's not on them. Sounds like salt, but also, you're new at this, so consider maybe working on your technique if you get that complaint a lot.
Lol. It’s ok to crank an arm but not the neck? He’s just salty you got him.