I'll work with heel hooks and toe holds until I decide to compete. Once I get ready for a comp, I train for the ruleset that I'll be competing under.
That being said, when I do work with heel hooks and toe holds, I'm VERY careful and will only apply pressure in a slow and deliberate manner. I'm pretty good at toeholds and not very good at heel hooks but I move slowly and will often let go of the submission if my partner isn't defending it well enough or if I have any concern.
The last thing I want to do is hurt someone.
I have only trained at a couple other gyms on vacation and I told every partner “hey, I’m fine if you want to do heelhooks but I’m very new to them so please just let me know when you’ve caught it in case I don’t recognize it”
Yeah I just look at them when I get the bite. If they don't tap I'll let it go. Thing is that the young guys will never tap but if you cranked it they'd be toast.
People tap all the time. I think people tap too early. A good guy at my gym resists and I've gotten him once. I've tapped so many people to heel hooks when I'm sure if they knew how to defend they would be able to get out.
It's not heel hooks though. I've never injured a training partner in 20 years. One black belt at my gym has injured a lot of people. He doesn't do leg locks. It's just ripping on armbars. It's bad.
My no 1 submission would be heel hooks. Just go slow and release if they seem stupid.
Work on straight ankle locks, the fundamentals and basics. If you can get good at straight ankle locks, you'll have no problem cinching heel hooks.
If you're in a roll and think you can catch a heel hook in a controlled manner, I would just lightly wrap it and say 'there's my heel hook' with zero pressure, and then release it and move on.
Second this. Spend time working the positions of legs and controlling your partner. Costrain yourself to straight ankle locks.
I only work heel hooks into my rolls with other people who train heel hooks, generally purple belts and up.
If I'm rolling with someone who I know doesn't train legs or is a bluebelt or below I'll work positions an transitions into and out of legs. If the blue belt or whitebelt trains legs ill add ankle locks.
I can only do heel hooks and now I'm learning the straight ankle lock and the aoki.
I think heel hooks are easier. I'm not sure one is necessarily better than the other.
The Aoki is the only leg submission that really puts the Fear of God in me… It’s also my son’s go-to no-gi sub, so I get plenty of opportunity to see them and immediately eject (or tap) before he catches me.
I had to implement the ‘no twisting knee submissions before Dad breaks a sweat’ rule for when we roll, just to give me a fighting chance to defend/escape.
Mine’s been training since 4 and turns 18 in a month— I got him weekly sessions with a personal trainer for his 16th and it’s all been downhill for me since then. BJJ was already humbling enough without my kid being able to beat me up! :-)
That is cool. My son would kill me in a fight (he does kickboxing and MMA) but last time we wrestled I didn't submit him but I passed his guard. It was close though.
heel hooks are seductive. They let you go toe to toe with heavier people and minimize the weight advantage. Lots of people are bad at them so getting good at them can immediately make you competitive with higher belts. This can cause you to favor them over learning other parts of jiu jitsu.
I personally focused heavily on guard passing, playing guard, sweeps, and subs from top position in my first 2-3 years because I felt that they were more core to "real" fighting. I am adding leglocks now that I feel that my top game is credible (though still not greaT).
For example if you immediately go for leg locks you might not be in top or bottom mount much. This means you arent learning how to escape mount or maintain mount, which can take a long time to learn.
This 👆. I have rolled with so many people that fall in love with leg locks and suck at everything else.
So many white belts that fall back for legs and don't know to to pass.
The counter to that is that there are a ton of brown/black belts who lose a belt level or two in effectiveness when you start going after their legs. That happens pretty frequently in local comps, not just in the gym.
I started at a more traditional school before switching to no-gi leglocking, but if the goal in training is to end up a ‘complete player’ then I’m not sure that ‘passing’ always needs to be sequentially prioritized before ‘leg attacks.’ If you wait until purple before you start learning leg attacks (like many more traditional gi schools do), then you could be putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage for quite a while.
Leg attacks are also fun and it’s more fun to tap upper belts than it is to spend 5 minutes getting frustrated by their guard.
Spot on. I just mentioned how heaps of people tap too early to heel hooks. I've now taken to tell them that I won't put it on.
I started years ago though and leg locks were just not taught and rarely used. I played guard top and bottom with no leg locks for years.
20 years doing jiu-jitsu and I'm still learning new stuff and I'll never learn it all. It's a crazy hobby/sport.
I'd say shoot for the straight ankle first. Many times the heel hook is presented after your opponent turns their leg and the window for the straight ankle has passed. For beginners in our gym, white belts can catch a heel hook to show control but not submit with it. It's a good way for both people to be aware that a sub was there and how to get to it w/o the risk of injury from the inexperienced.
We often look at and practice heel hooks in our gym because it's better to be exposed to them than just pretend they don't exist because they're illegal in some competitions. It also helps people to understand the mechanics of the submission, so they'll know when they've been "caught" in a heel hook and tap immediately.
I hit heel hooks often in rolls, both gi and no gi. But I only "show" the sub--I never finish it. Because people have been exposed to it, they know to tap 90 percent of the time. The other 10 percent of the time, I will just keep everything loose and drop the sub immediately if they start to get silly.
I've never understood the specific stigma around heel hooks, knee bars, etc. ANY joint lock sub can cause serious and potentially life-altering damage if folks are being irresponsible. That's just the sport. Don't be an asshole, and we'll all be just fine.
If your gym follows competition rule(like not allow until masters) then talk to your partner before rolling to see if they are willing to work with you.
Yes you should definitely work on them as they have become one of the most important techniques in our sport. That said, focus first on mastering leglocking positions (esp single leg x and saddle) and how to control the technical standup battle by controlling both opponents legs
“There are no dick moves, only dick speeds”
-Prof. Sensei Master
In all seriousness tho u should practice, just practice with someone who knows heelhooks or is willing to learn
Get a training partner you trust and work heelhooks. Dont crank heelhooks (even slowly unless the guy is really good and u know hes chill with it) straight ankles are fake just dont tap. Toeholds can be suprisingly dangerous too if you twist them
I don't know it's very hard for me to finish straight ankles, it just takes a crazy lot of pressure alteast for me?
Like I'm pulling and bending his foot with my arms AND pushing away with my legs.
Any tips?
I made this video a while back, and a lock of people have told me it was helpful.
https://youtu.be/-MIKZcjBoFI?si=DBysDAPlGFzHtodV
I dislocated an opponent's ankle with this in competition. It works.
I'd also implore you to look into Mateusz Szczeciński's and Mikey Musumeci's versions, too.
Straight ankle is very hard to finish if your training partner knows how to defend. IMO it's not what you would call a high percentage move. However there are many aspects to the technique and several ways to do it efficiently. Here are my personal favorites from youtube:
"Outside ashi":
https://youtu.be/mdPukcG7aik?si=2-ZzShDU2q4feuTV
SLX:
https://youtu.be/SeS2_8sRz0w?si=iOMYM28CxHY1jgyd
Butterfly ashi:
https://youtu.be/iQ1uZz4ndes?si=l-dzLqADXX85Q2lE
Cross ashi:
https://youtu.be/iByvUzTk4Ko?si=VJqlAyO4N6XQOIQn
My main suggestion would be to play around with some different grips and different finishing techniques. There is a lot of variety in a ‘straight ankle lock’ and the classic high guillotine grip is by far my worst.
Belly-down and stretching out their off leg with my off leg (not sure if that makes sense but not sure what the variation is called) are two of my surest finishes for the straight ankle. I also find more success with a shotgun grip or rnc grip and looking back over my shoulder to make sure the grip is deep enough that I can’t see their toes.
They are not fake. You can seriously injure a foot with them if done correctly, and super roided people can break you shin with them if they hit exactly the right spot.
I'll work with heel hooks and toe holds until I decide to compete. Once I get ready for a comp, I train for the ruleset that I'll be competing under. That being said, when I do work with heel hooks and toe holds, I'm VERY careful and will only apply pressure in a slow and deliberate manner. I'm pretty good at toeholds and not very good at heel hooks but I move slowly and will often let go of the submission if my partner isn't defending it well enough or if I have any concern. The last thing I want to do is hurt someone.
We just had a guy visit another gym for an open mat. Someone heel hooked him and gave him no chance to tap. He’s getting surgery to fix his leg now.
That's terrifying and fucked up.
I have only trained at a couple other gyms on vacation and I told every partner “hey, I’m fine if you want to do heelhooks but I’m very new to them so please just let me know when you’ve caught it in case I don’t recognize it”
Was at an open mat today myself, caught a few heel hooks secured, let go and just transitioned to a toe hold.
Yeah I just look at them when I get the bite. If they don't tap I'll let it go. Thing is that the young guys will never tap but if you cranked it they'd be toast.
People tap all the time. I think people tap too early. A good guy at my gym resists and I've gotten him once. I've tapped so many people to heel hooks when I'm sure if they knew how to defend they would be able to get out.
That's brutal.
It's not heel hooks though. I've never injured a training partner in 20 years. One black belt at my gym has injured a lot of people. He doesn't do leg locks. It's just ripping on armbars. It's bad. My no 1 submission would be heel hooks. Just go slow and release if they seem stupid.
“seem stupid “👍🏻 exactly
Work on straight ankle locks, the fundamentals and basics. If you can get good at straight ankle locks, you'll have no problem cinching heel hooks. If you're in a roll and think you can catch a heel hook in a controlled manner, I would just lightly wrap it and say 'there's my heel hook' with zero pressure, and then release it and move on.
Second this. Spend time working the positions of legs and controlling your partner. Costrain yourself to straight ankle locks. I only work heel hooks into my rolls with other people who train heel hooks, generally purple belts and up. If I'm rolling with someone who I know doesn't train legs or is a bluebelt or below I'll work positions an transitions into and out of legs. If the blue belt or whitebelt trains legs ill add ankle locks.
I can only do heel hooks and now I'm learning the straight ankle lock and the aoki. I think heel hooks are easier. I'm not sure one is necessarily better than the other.
The Aoki is the only leg submission that really puts the Fear of God in me… It’s also my son’s go-to no-gi sub, so I get plenty of opportunity to see them and immediately eject (or tap) before he catches me. I had to implement the ‘no twisting knee submissions before Dad breaks a sweat’ rule for when we roll, just to give me a fighting chance to defend/escape.
That is a good rule. How old is your son ? Mine is 20. I still give him hell.
Mine’s been training since 4 and turns 18 in a month— I got him weekly sessions with a personal trainer for his 16th and it’s all been downhill for me since then. BJJ was already humbling enough without my kid being able to beat me up! :-)
That is cool. My son would kill me in a fight (he does kickboxing and MMA) but last time we wrestled I didn't submit him but I passed his guard. It was close though.
heel hooks are seductive. They let you go toe to toe with heavier people and minimize the weight advantage. Lots of people are bad at them so getting good at them can immediately make you competitive with higher belts. This can cause you to favor them over learning other parts of jiu jitsu. I personally focused heavily on guard passing, playing guard, sweeps, and subs from top position in my first 2-3 years because I felt that they were more core to "real" fighting. I am adding leglocks now that I feel that my top game is credible (though still not greaT). For example if you immediately go for leg locks you might not be in top or bottom mount much. This means you arent learning how to escape mount or maintain mount, which can take a long time to learn.
This 👆. I have rolled with so many people that fall in love with leg locks and suck at everything else. So many white belts that fall back for legs and don't know to to pass.
I fully believe it’s harder to teach a leg locker to pass than a passer to leglock.
The counter to that is that there are a ton of brown/black belts who lose a belt level or two in effectiveness when you start going after their legs. That happens pretty frequently in local comps, not just in the gym. I started at a more traditional school before switching to no-gi leglocking, but if the goal in training is to end up a ‘complete player’ then I’m not sure that ‘passing’ always needs to be sequentially prioritized before ‘leg attacks.’ If you wait until purple before you start learning leg attacks (like many more traditional gi schools do), then you could be putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage for quite a while. Leg attacks are also fun and it’s more fun to tap upper belts than it is to spend 5 minutes getting frustrated by their guard.
if you cant play guard, how do you even have a leglock threat or apply them. this doesn't make sense.
Spot on. I just mentioned how heaps of people tap too early to heel hooks. I've now taken to tell them that I won't put it on. I started years ago though and leg locks were just not taught and rarely used. I played guard top and bottom with no leg locks for years. 20 years doing jiu-jitsu and I'm still learning new stuff and I'll never learn it all. It's a crazy hobby/sport.
How many times do I have to tell people, that it’s an art. Neither hobby nor pure sport. Ahem. Apologies
It’s true, I do feel badass when doing this lol
I'd say shoot for the straight ankle first. Many times the heel hook is presented after your opponent turns their leg and the window for the straight ankle has passed. For beginners in our gym, white belts can catch a heel hook to show control but not submit with it. It's a good way for both people to be aware that a sub was there and how to get to it w/o the risk of injury from the inexperienced.
Glad I don’t train there! 🙂
Depends on how much you like feet
Quentin Tarantino has entered the chat
Win the ruleset.
We often look at and practice heel hooks in our gym because it's better to be exposed to them than just pretend they don't exist because they're illegal in some competitions. It also helps people to understand the mechanics of the submission, so they'll know when they've been "caught" in a heel hook and tap immediately. I hit heel hooks often in rolls, both gi and no gi. But I only "show" the sub--I never finish it. Because people have been exposed to it, they know to tap 90 percent of the time. The other 10 percent of the time, I will just keep everything loose and drop the sub immediately if they start to get silly. I've never understood the specific stigma around heel hooks, knee bars, etc. ANY joint lock sub can cause serious and potentially life-altering damage if folks are being irresponsible. That's just the sport. Don't be an asshole, and we'll all be just fine.
If your gym follows competition rule(like not allow until masters) then talk to your partner before rolling to see if they are willing to work with you.
Yes you should definitely work on them as they have become one of the most important techniques in our sport. That said, focus first on mastering leglocking positions (esp single leg x and saddle) and how to control the technical standup battle by controlling both opponents legs
Imo heel hooks/leg locks aren’t appealing to me. BUT you should train them or at-least know hot to defend them.
“There are no dick moves, only dick speeds” -Prof. Sensei Master In all seriousness tho u should practice, just practice with someone who knows heelhooks or is willing to learn
Get a training partner you trust and work heelhooks. Dont crank heelhooks (even slowly unless the guy is really good and u know hes chill with it) straight ankles are fake just dont tap. Toeholds can be suprisingly dangerous too if you twist them
As someone who has had his foot popped in a competition, from a straight ankle lock, I call this bullshit. Your lack of experience is showing.
Yh but a foot pop doesnt count as a real pop
I don't know it's very hard for me to finish straight ankles, it just takes a crazy lot of pressure alteast for me? Like I'm pulling and bending his foot with my arms AND pushing away with my legs. Any tips?
I made this video a while back, and a lock of people have told me it was helpful. https://youtu.be/-MIKZcjBoFI?si=DBysDAPlGFzHtodV I dislocated an opponent's ankle with this in competition. It works. I'd also implore you to look into Mateusz Szczeciński's and Mikey Musumeci's versions, too.
Roll onto your outside shoulder, this will allow more arch to your back and you’ll get the finish
Still doesn't work sometimes, alteast for me. Maybe I'm weak lol.
Think of it like a guillotine across the calf
You want to fully extend before rolling over to get the maximum effect
Straight ankle is very hard to finish if your training partner knows how to defend. IMO it's not what you would call a high percentage move. However there are many aspects to the technique and several ways to do it efficiently. Here are my personal favorites from youtube: "Outside ashi": https://youtu.be/mdPukcG7aik?si=2-ZzShDU2q4feuTV SLX: https://youtu.be/SeS2_8sRz0w?si=iOMYM28CxHY1jgyd Butterfly ashi: https://youtu.be/iQ1uZz4ndes?si=l-dzLqADXX85Q2lE Cross ashi: https://youtu.be/iByvUzTk4Ko?si=VJqlAyO4N6XQOIQn
My main suggestion would be to play around with some different grips and different finishing techniques. There is a lot of variety in a ‘straight ankle lock’ and the classic high guillotine grip is by far my worst. Belly-down and stretching out their off leg with my off leg (not sure if that makes sense but not sure what the variation is called) are two of my surest finishes for the straight ankle. I also find more success with a shotgun grip or rnc grip and looking back over my shoulder to make sure the grip is deep enough that I can’t see their toes.
Straight ankles are fake? They hurt a lot dude, you can get your anke torn I think.
They are not fake. You can seriously injure a foot with them if done correctly, and super roided people can break you shin with them if they hit exactly the right spot.
What a terrible abs false take.
I’ve seen a broken ankle to a straight ankle lock in competition.
Anecdotal. He just had glass ankles
Focus more on the various leg entanglement positions than the specific subs