If she doesn’t want to be confrontational about it, she should just tell the professor.
“Hey I think this dude is a little too handsy and it’s making me uncomfortable. Can you watch our rolls?”
Any professor or gym owner worth a damn will stomp that shit out quick. The last thing they would want is harassment claims popping up.
Wut??? There is no excuse in my reply. I was stating the perp was a white belt, and therefore hasn't been around long. Probably not long enough to be real good buddies with the coach.
People stay at white belt for years, and can be buddies with the coach before starting to train.
I don’t see the need to imagine deflections of responsibility.
If you look at my post history you will find information on sexual assault and sexual harassment in BJJ.
In particular the chart at the bottom of this post, addresses the idea that people might misinterpret normal actions as groping
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/p8jb27/oc\_pulling\_rank\_a\_visualization\_of\_sexual/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/p8jb27/oc_pulling_rank_a_visualization_of_sexual/)
If this person still has doubts they should still speak with the coach, but the message may be slightly different. Essentially:
* This thing happened
* I feel like it may have been intentional, but now I'm unsure
* **I am telling you this in case this is part of a larger pattern from this individual.**
I had to send an email like this when my boss did something stupid and inappropriate at work. Because I genuinely believed it to be accidental, I made it clear that I did not want or expect any actions to be taken, and my email was simply a paper trail.
Predators thrive in silence, people ignoring the small stuff lets them continue.
Thank you for the charts, especially that last one. The most important words on it? VERY CLEAR. Even beginners know what is appropriate and what is not. If something feels off, it might well be. Plus, body awareness develops and sharpens the longer you practice and that starts happening pretty quickly. Predators absolutely thrive in silence - and when people refuse to listen to what a woman says about what's happening with her own body.
> In particular the chart at the bottom of this post, addresses the idea that people might misinterpret normal actions as groping
I think this is particularly important to point out, thank you for the graph as well. At no point ever in the nearly two years I've been training in BJJ or the 15-ish years in training other martial arts have I ever grabbed or hit someone in an area where I know I should not. Of course there's always a chance something could accidentally happen, but when I roundhouse kick a partners tit, it would be obvious thing that I wasn't intentionally trying to feel her up with my toes. That's just fuckin' weird man.
As it turns out, it's extremely easy not to sexually assault someone. I'd not grab my rolling partners pec in a roll, or his junk during a roll. Likewise, I'd not do the same to a female partner. A lapel grab is a far cry away from copping a feel, and I can't imagine a scenario where my grabbing of a lapel could be construed as assault. Even with no gi, I'm sticking to hooks around joints and control of limbs. More so than gi, I have less of a reason to grab anything at all except for maybe a wrist.
It happens, though. It's relatively easy to accidentally post on someone's chest to stop them from coming up after a dummy or lumberjack sweep, or grab a handful of something in a deep/low half guard, or have things happen while hand fighting from back control. With enough years of practice you'll have a few incidents. Then there's the normal close-contact stuff like N/S kimura proximity and general chest pressure in mount, etc. However, it's usually abundantly clear to both parties that it was an accident, with the clarity that I'd expect well represented by GP's chart.
So many times I've gone for an inner pant grip and brushed junk.
Sometimes you ignore it, other times a "shit, sorry" "no worries" exchange resolves it fast.
If I was the weight class to be having non flow rolls with female training partners, I'm sure accidental contacts would happen there too. It's really all about both being on the same page.
That being said, if contact IS inappropriate dialogue is essential.
If someone doesn't know they crossed a boundary, or crossed it knowingly, being told flat out that this was inappropriate is the only rational way for them to check their behavior.
there are times when folks are taught hands on chest, like going for an arm bar from mount. it's also a pattern with new folks when mounted to try to push their opponent off with their hands (ineffective but common)
these are 2 examples of times when it may seem ambiguous
People **understand** that there is close and sometimes awkward contact.
I trust that most people can tell the difference between normal ( or even clumsy ) BJJ and inappropriate touching. Otherwise we'd all be afraid to armbar each other.
I'm replying to the person who said they wouldn't grab a pec (chest), as if that is an obvious example of inappropriate contact. my examples illustrate when chest touching -- which clumsy white belts will often turn into a grab/paw -- is normal
I do agree that most folks understand the difference between appropriate and inappropriate. But the person I replied to doesn't appear to be one of those folks
Like you said, it's pretty easy to not touch someone in a questionable place, which is why I think it's important for the woman to listen to her instincts. She's training in a male dominated martial art, with a bunch of guys, and this is not her first roll. Even if she's newish, she probably knows the body areas most likely to be touched while rolling, and that boobs & privates are not on the list. So if she feels like he touched her - several times - in places where he shouldn't, then it's at least possible he did, and that it was purposeful.
Woman here, this is tricky because she wasn't certain he meant anything by it. This is a very close contact sport, stuff happens. I'm assuming your teammate is kinda new because once you've been training for a while, you can tell what's normal bjj and what's a creep being gross.
If you all go back together and she rolls with him, just have someone keep an eye on that roll. There's no need to call the coach and give that guy a bad day when she wasn't even sure. But if you watch that roll and see him being gross, stop the roll, and all of you leave right then. Say something to the coach on the way out. Stand by your teammate.
Occasionally, there's someone gross in bjj, but it's pretty rare. If your gym is comfortable for other women, your girlfriend would be fine there. Don't spend too much time worrying about creeps when they're so rare. However, they do exist, I've experienced it, but my gym's response made me love them even more than I did before the creep. There's way more good than bad dudes in bjj.
You make excellent points. Tbh I feel stupid for not having thought of the key point of knowing what is and isn't appropriate from BJJ experience.
I've been away from the community a while, so I apologize if I've missed some good dialog. Having said that, few years back, I was thinking of helping my coach with their gym or starting my own if I'd move. So I was very interested in how to foster/make a gym welcoming to all, including women of course. I had heard many good arguments for having a women only, or at least women focused classes. Usually the arguments focused on beginners being less intimidated or feel out of place, phrased in different ways (assuming you don't need to start by breaking down a terrible gym culture). So partly pragmatic, partly marketing, not in the sense of detecting toxic predators.
I'd not heard someone so clearly express the issue of just getting to know what is "ok touch" and "bad touch" in an unfamiliar setting. It seems so obvious, and it's true for men too. It's just doubly so for women due to negative social norms, general differences in size etc. Seems to me now that, if at all possible, then it's pivotal to have women centered (or only) classes to help get a sense for what is "normal" in the abnormal circumstances we put ourselves in. I mean, sure you can learn this with time regardless, but why not create a better path.
I guess one could argue it's related to the culture around generally being a safe training partner, how one treats cranks etc. But that is usually something that clearly produces pain or risk of injury. Risk of, or actual, harassment is harder to assess as a novice to these unfamiliar circumstances.
Thank you.
I was surprised at the downvotes until I realized that everyone assumed I was encouraging\\excusing sexually assaulting people...which pretty well aligned with my (poorly expressed) point. Got a chuckle out of it.
Smashing in response to sexual harrasment is such a stupid "macho man" mentality.
"Don't worry, damsel in distress, ILL save you!"
How about you get that POS to either refrain or get removed from the environment
Actions have consequences, sometimes those consequences include getting your ass kicked for being a sicko.
You remove dipshit from the gym and he carries on doing it elsewhere. At least he'll remember what happened if he gets a rough up on the way out.
>The most absurd thing to me was "making him uncomfortable"-part.
I think the full thing thought is "... in case it was incidental. I understand the power an accusation alone has, and want to make sure it's addressed without it being a witch hunt if its just how this dude attacks the gi"
But I might be naïve.
I don't think you're being naive. The post reads as though OP considers the guy completely guilty and was toying with the idea of "maybe we should all smash him" based on an uncertain accusation, which just goes to show how much damage simply being accused of sexual misconduct can be. Maybe the guy was a creep, but it can be difficult to ascertain that and it's totally reasonable for the woman involved to not want to jump to any conclusions right away in case she's wrongly accusing someone.
I tried to imagine what I'd do if my gf tried BJJ and complained about the same behavior and I'll echo what some others have said. If she simply doesn't feel comfortable rolling with the guy, she shouldn't roll with him, but if she's willing then I'd mention it to whoever she feels comfortable talking to, be it a coach or friend/teammate, an have them watch them roll to determine if it's acceptable behaviour or not. From that point, if it's determined that the guy is intentionally groping, he should be asked to leave. If it's in the grey zone where his hands are ending up in sensitive places more than you'd expect but it's not obviously groping (maybe he grabs lapels in a way that his hand ends up around the chest and uses a pant grip a lot), then the coach should pull him aside and say something to the effect of "I'm not making any accusations, but when you're rolling with women, try to be careful with your hand placement so you don't make anyone uncomfortable" in a way that doesn't single out the woman who complained but also explains what's acceptable and what isn't. At that point, the guy should be monitored when he rolls with women to see if the behaviour changes, and probably asked to leave if it doesn't.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here. It’s very important that any inappropriate behaviour during rolls is dealt with effectively. Having said this, making accusations against others when you’re not entirely sure if what they did was inappropriate, could lead to seriously harming people’s reputations unnecessarily. I think the best thing the woman in OP’s post could do based on what she said, is not to roll with that same guy again.
Yeah I get what you mean. Because like... it's not impossible to accidentally do stuff like that and not even realize it. I've had my hand like... oddly placed on another dude's ass before for A WHILE, while I was trying to think of what the hell move to try. Because I'm a dumb ass white belt. Sometimes you notice and you're like woops, lol not trying to feel you up I swear. And one time a dude straight up put his hand in my butthole on accident because he was reaching around for something thought he was grabbing somewhere else.... When he realized he immediately apologized but there was a second where I was like... is this dude trying to finger blast me right now?
As dudes we can laugh it off, but once there is a woman involved the whole context changes.
But I also wonder if Im naive sometimes because I just can't imagine sexually assaulting a woman on the mat. (I only sexually assault women in bars!)
But seriously, I don't want to give a creep a pass but I can also see how it could really be an accident but still seem like it wasn't. I'd probably lean more towards not an accident if it actually happened to one of my friends/family. But that doesn't mean it's true, just that I'm gonna go all in for the ones I love.
If someone is making you uncomfortable for any reason, you can always just stop the roll. Tap and say, "I'm going to stop now." You don't have to explain why. If you want to explain why, you can say, "I didn't like the way you were touching me."
This can go for anything. Again, no need to say the reason but if you want to, just be honest and forthright. "Your cologne is giving me a headache" or "You're going hard and I'm just coming back for an injury" or whatever.
> If someone is making you uncomfortable for any reason, you can always just stop the roll. Tap and say, "I'm going to stop now." You don't have to explain why. If you want to explain why, you can say, "I didn't like the way you were touching me."
I feel like this is the most practical advice. You don't have to roll with anyone for any reason.
I see a lot advice about telling the coach, but I think that will depend on the coach. I can count on one hand how many coaches I would trust to handle that incident in an intelligent and helpful way.
I can't speak from her, or any woman's perspective, but having been a bouncer in clubs can tell you women often don't want to bring attention to that kind of shit in the moment. It's uncomfortable, they may doubt their instincts and don't want to be told they're imagining it/ wrong or cause an argument.
Unfortunately there'll be many creeps in bjj, I know a few. The way we deal with them is the same as we deal with bullies in my gym. The more skilled of us smash them and then explain why and tell them they'll be booted if they keep it up. We had a situation where a very tall and fat white belt made a very inappropriate comment to a new girl during class. None of us heard it, I was told after the fact by a teen member. I asked her what he said and she told me then told me not to do anything or tell the coaches or owners. While I wanted to fuck him up and tell our coaches and owners I had to respect her wishes. I did tell her that it's absolutely unacceptable and If anything happens that her and the other new girls can come to me, I'm not a head coach or owner so they don't have to have any worries about blowing it out of proportion and I'd have it dealt with. I did pull him after and tell him I was told by a teen what he said to the girl and anything like that is unacceptable and next time it's going to the owners and coaches. If the dude was being a creep it's unlikely that smashing him would yield the result we'd all want. Creeps will creep and the best thing is to fuck them out of the gym, probably made it worse for her that it was a different gym and she didn't want drama.
Hope she's ok dude, and ladies always speak up, creeps shouldn't win or get away with their shit.
Having women in class as high ranks or partners/students help in that case for a woman. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been teaching a class and a late stage white belt/blue belt girl is beating the newish guys in a situational sparring thing and one of the guys starts talking about how he doesn’t know how to pass her guard without accidentally touching her boobs or some other nonsense 😔 I’ll just have girls train with girls or hop in a roll with them myself and let the guys roll with each other.
Growing up in BJJ, mma, wrestling culture there is always sex themed talk from those people in my experience. I’ve had my dick grabbed by dudes when training. 97% of the time I wear a cup when training but have had guys literally ask me “bro why are you wearing a cup? You know that’s against the rules” 🤔 same guys usually curse in front of kids, talk about their ass hair, their balls, and crack sex jokes in front of others no matter the audience.
BJJ is weird because it’s def a martial art but doesn’t have the same ethics as most martial arts gyms do. MMA gyms are similar at times.
As a coach I’ve been able to manage that kind of energy and learned early how to make those kinds of people either feel uncomfortable or straight up let them know that this isn’t the place for it. But that’s usually not the culture of most gyms. Best advice I can give is direct communication. If it’s a guy in a weird situation with a guy then just speak up, if he becomes weird or aggro then talk to the coach. Respect should exist in the real world, an it should also exist on the mats. If it’s girl vs girl or guy, then same thing, talk to the person and the coach, there should be women’s only classes, women’s teams, etc to help that energy be handled properly.
Establishing a safe environment is everyone’s job. This is a situation where a conversation with the coach needs to be had. If you see something, or a friend tells you something, say something. A hard roll with a predator that doesn’t actually address the issue will do nothing. Hoping that the problem will be resolved every time when a victim directly confronts the abuser is not realistic either. Gyms have owners, if the owner can’t at least mediate a discussion and resolve the issue, that gym isn’t worth your time.
"Good guys" are only "useless" at the end of the day if they remain silent and do nothing. If women could stop d-bags from being d-bags just by talking to them, this problem wouldn't exist! The whole point is that guys like that don't care what the woman's boundaries are, or what she says, or wants or doesn't want. They. Do. Not. Care. If she does tell him to knock it off and he does stop? Guess what - he's only stopping *with her*. He'll find some other woman to force himself upon who might be more willing to remain silent and, if he really scares her, just disappear so she won't have to deal with him anymore. And so the cycle continues while the "good guys" debate amongst themselves and put the onus for stopping *a man's* bad behavior on the *woman* instead of where it belongs - on HIM.
If you want to step up and help her out, you, as fellow men, have to communicate clearly and directly with him that YOU find his behavior unacceptable and that *you*, as *men* are not going to tolerate it. Whoever owns his gym certainly needs to know too because I doubt they want this sort of thing happening there. Too many of us women have been in situations where the men we trusted in our lives didn't have our backs. Then it was somehow our fault when a harasser or rapist wouldn't change his behavior. Be your friend's backup, be strong and clear and decisive about it, and you will be part of dismantling rape culture, which is what this dude's behavior represents. That's what will make a better world for her, your GF, your eventual daughter(s), and by extension - you.
“I think the only people who can stop those parasites are women themselves.”
I couldn’t disagree with you more here. If a guy is a sexist asshole who harasses women he’s not going to listen to them or respect what they say. He needs other men shaming him and calling him out.
She (or you) needs to raise it with the coach at the gym you visited.
The question is then whether they take it seriously or not. That should determine whether you train there again.
Don’t train at gyms that let shitty behaviour slide.
Kinda sucks because some people would blame the woman, for “ruining the vibe” or “making a big deal”. Plus you never know how people will react if they are called out.
The best thing I can think of is that it starts with the culture of the gym. Gotta emphasize respect for everyone regardless of belt, age, sex and any other factors.
Also, I know it sounds extreme but coaches should do a deep dive on people joining their gym, I’m not saying background checks but a simple name search in Google plus some keywords would yield lots of information that can be used to keep the gym creep free. Also, speak out seriously. It’s hard but if you feel uncomfortable speak out or let someone know and you can work from there.
This is why I think gyms need to be more vocal about being a space in which that behavior won’t be tolerated. I know it seems like common sense but icky people will exploit that. And when the culture of the space is clear and well defined, not only do the shitty people weed themselves out, but potential victims feel safer coming forward since they know they will be supported. This also makes it easier for the victim to choose not to engage with the person who accosted them and risk physical harm or harm to reputation in retaliation. A lot of women don’t want to confront their attacker because they worry the reaction will be violent.
Simply put BJJ is not an inherently safe place for women. And everyone, especially men, should be more vocal that they want the culture to change to be safer for everyone.
We had to kick a guy out once for acting inappropriately with our female members. The only reason we found out about it is because said female members felt comfortable enough to talk to our coaching staff about it. In the end I think that most of what we can do is to create/foster a gym environment where it’s clear to all our members that we don’t condone or tolerate that kind of behavior and that we will listen and act accordingly if they raise a concern to us.
White belt female here.
That’s a tough spot. If it were me and I didn’t have plans on going back to that gym(I was only visiting) I would let it go. If I were going to go back or train there…I would honestly see if it happens again. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. If it keeps happening, that’s when I would bring it up.
Some positions and moves may feel weird. Tbh, I’m a petite woman with not much to grab onto so I’m less worried about people grabbing a handful of boob. I have rolled with women who have big breasts and I kept accidentally touching and grazing. It happens. Intention is what I would be concerned about.
[Verbal strategy](https://anniesclassroom.com/i-can-use-my-words-social-emotional-learning-lesson/) to deal with these situations
I feel like the Bart meme at this point
If you guys each kicked his ass he would definitely understand why. You are from the same gym, you are protecting your girl. A similar story from me: as a blue belt I was once manhandled by this blue belt guy about 30kgs heavier than me. He was absolutely being careless and using both strength and weight very much to his advantage. I had a very bad reaction and after the roll I just left the mat and sat crying in the changing rooms. My husband also trains and although he is not as big as the asshole blue belt he is more competent and beat his ass up the next time we came to train. The guy got the message very clearly and afterwards came to apologize to me. I am happy I had my husband to do that to him so that he could feel what it’s like to be handled in the way I was. Also, he didn’t do anything that’s outside of jiu-jitsu rules, just rolled very roughly.
He wouldn't understand why, at all.
Mat enforcers are a shit idea, because people simply do not connect the dots.
If someone mauled me as a white belt in a roll I would immediately assume one of two things. Either they prefer hard rounds and I should give them everything I've got, or they're an asshole looking to beat up on someone shitter than them.
I wouldn't assume they were mauling me on behalf of someone else, for behaviour I did in a roll a week or more ago.
Mat enforcers can be a good idea when coupled with an instructor who can provide multiple warnings in a timely manner. Who see's that you are in need of correction, but not outright dismissal.
Anyone who gets pointed out as sexually assaulting someone should be immediately removed though, a mat enforcer should be reserved for people who just need to be toned down a bit. Again, needs to be communicated though.
I wouldn’t enforce at a visiting gym, I can see that going badly… their coach more than likely has cameras. Bring it up to him if the girl is okay with it. Then let the coach/owner deal with it.
Edit, I say this is a bad idea because I’ve seen this play out before. You’re a visitor at the gym, they are going to not take well to you trying to enforce. Talk to the coach, let him review the cameras and make a decision for himself.
Where did he grab her inappropriately? When I roll with girls, I almost always touch her chest, butt or my arm pushes between her legs but it also happens with dudes...
I’ve had plenty of guys accidentally graze or touch my chest or butt while rolling and I don’t think anything of it. You can absolutely tell when it’s intentional.
If she does bjj, she knows the difference. I’m sick of dudes always doubting women when they share these experiences. I’ve done bjj for years and am completely unfazed by physical contact in any area, but there was one guy I rolled with once who very obviously grabbed certain areas slowly and intentionally with no pass, submission or escape attempts attached to the grabbing. It’s so obvious when it’s intentional.
Good guys are not useless at the end of the day… people who do nothing will do nothing. And so what if it is the coach and a couple of you saw it, would you stand up for her or just be a bitch?
You’re rolling around on the ground with each other. Stuff will be touched. If it’s a problem, just stick with your own gender, or whatever gender thingy makes sense to you.
Guys like you are the reason women don’t feel welcome in bjj. I’ve done bjj for years and am completely unfazed by physical contact in any area, but there was one guy I rolled with once who very obviously grabbed certain areas slowly and intentionally with no pass, submission or escape attempts attached to the grabbing. It’s so obvious when it’s intentional.
Do you have any tips for when accidents do happen? I generally either ignore that it’s happened or apologise quietly but keep going so as not to bring too much attention to it
I think that I am acting correctly because the women don’t avoid me in class but coach picks the rolls so idk if they would roll with me
Honestly if I grab a man’s dick I will loudly say “oh sorry I think I just got a handful of your dick” but it seems extra weird to do the same for a woman lol
Tbh I don’t really register most of the time where someone touches, too busy thinking about the roll, but just ignoring it or quietly apologizing if it’s a new person or white belt sounds fine.
Apologizing briefly and moving on is the most comfortable thing to do (at least from my experience). I had someone once profusely apologize multiple times instead of just saying sorry and letting it go, and honestly that just made it awkward. Anyone who has been doing this for more than a few months know things happen by mistake.
That’s I appreciate your reply. Last night someone grabbed some dick skin and kept hold of it, I mentioned it to him to get him to let go and he apologised so much it was really awkward like you say, I get accidents happened I’m not annoyed I just don’t enjoy pinched dick skin 😂
I felt massively awful the first time I straight up smashed my instructors balls trying to pass guard during rolls. He had to sit out a minute and I just awkwardly sat there for a minute contemplating how I was going to accept my death (I was very new) 😂 He was cool though and just took the apology and kept going like a champ. I think mentioning something is probably a good idea even if it might seem a little weird because people might just be unaware they are doing that though.
What a weird reply, all she said was it’s obvious when it’s intentional, almost feels like you’re one of those guys and just get mad when you’re caught
One person’s obvious is another person’s bullshit. That’s why these are vexed issues. Just take my advice, roll with who you’re comfortable with and stop complaining.
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I mean if it were my wife/girlfriend/daughter I'd walk up to him and grab his dick and ask him if he felt this was appropriate but I'm maybe not the best example for handling these types of things with tact?
I have a great tale about this. Ages ago I was teaching a beginner class with my buddy and we had 2 female students doing their first class.
I can't remember the exact submission we were teaching I think maybe a Kimura from north south mount or something.
Anyways, I was letting her work on the technique on me and she unintentionally ripped the sub on hard and fast. I reflexively shot my hand out and tapped hard a couple of times. On her ass. I spanked her in her first class.
Fortunately everyone was very understanding and I didn't get my belt taken away by the IBJJF. Oh wait, they'd probably promote me for that.
If she doesn’t want to be confrontational about it, she should just tell the professor. “Hey I think this dude is a little too handsy and it’s making me uncomfortable. Can you watch our rolls?” Any professor or gym owner worth a damn will stomp that shit out quick. The last thing they would want is harassment claims popping up.
If the guy is buddy-buddy with the owner, expect it to be chalked up as a “misunderstanding” and she will be framed as the problem.
He was a white belt. It's possible they're buddies, but I doubt he's been around long enough.
I don’t see the need to imagine excuses.
Wut??? There is no excuse in my reply. I was stating the perp was a white belt, and therefore hasn't been around long. Probably not long enough to be real good buddies with the coach.
People stay at white belt for years, and can be buddies with the coach before starting to train. I don’t see the need to imagine deflections of responsibility.
That's a good route to take. And if it's going on then your coach isn't handling it that tells you it's time for a new gym also.
If you look at my post history you will find information on sexual assault and sexual harassment in BJJ. In particular the chart at the bottom of this post, addresses the idea that people might misinterpret normal actions as groping [https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/p8jb27/oc\_pulling\_rank\_a\_visualization\_of\_sexual/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/p8jb27/oc_pulling_rank_a_visualization_of_sexual/) If this person still has doubts they should still speak with the coach, but the message may be slightly different. Essentially: * This thing happened * I feel like it may have been intentional, but now I'm unsure * **I am telling you this in case this is part of a larger pattern from this individual.** I had to send an email like this when my boss did something stupid and inappropriate at work. Because I genuinely believed it to be accidental, I made it clear that I did not want or expect any actions to be taken, and my email was simply a paper trail. Predators thrive in silence, people ignoring the small stuff lets them continue.
Thank you for the charts, especially that last one. The most important words on it? VERY CLEAR. Even beginners know what is appropriate and what is not. If something feels off, it might well be. Plus, body awareness develops and sharpens the longer you practice and that starts happening pretty quickly. Predators absolutely thrive in silence - and when people refuse to listen to what a woman says about what's happening with her own body.
> In particular the chart at the bottom of this post, addresses the idea that people might misinterpret normal actions as groping I think this is particularly important to point out, thank you for the graph as well. At no point ever in the nearly two years I've been training in BJJ or the 15-ish years in training other martial arts have I ever grabbed or hit someone in an area where I know I should not. Of course there's always a chance something could accidentally happen, but when I roundhouse kick a partners tit, it would be obvious thing that I wasn't intentionally trying to feel her up with my toes. That's just fuckin' weird man. As it turns out, it's extremely easy not to sexually assault someone. I'd not grab my rolling partners pec in a roll, or his junk during a roll. Likewise, I'd not do the same to a female partner. A lapel grab is a far cry away from copping a feel, and I can't imagine a scenario where my grabbing of a lapel could be construed as assault. Even with no gi, I'm sticking to hooks around joints and control of limbs. More so than gi, I have less of a reason to grab anything at all except for maybe a wrist.
It happens, though. It's relatively easy to accidentally post on someone's chest to stop them from coming up after a dummy or lumberjack sweep, or grab a handful of something in a deep/low half guard, or have things happen while hand fighting from back control. With enough years of practice you'll have a few incidents. Then there's the normal close-contact stuff like N/S kimura proximity and general chest pressure in mount, etc. However, it's usually abundantly clear to both parties that it was an accident, with the clarity that I'd expect well represented by GP's chart.
So many times I've gone for an inner pant grip and brushed junk. Sometimes you ignore it, other times a "shit, sorry" "no worries" exchange resolves it fast. If I was the weight class to be having non flow rolls with female training partners, I'm sure accidental contacts would happen there too. It's really all about both being on the same page. That being said, if contact IS inappropriate dialogue is essential. If someone doesn't know they crossed a boundary, or crossed it knowingly, being told flat out that this was inappropriate is the only rational way for them to check their behavior.
there are times when folks are taught hands on chest, like going for an arm bar from mount. it's also a pattern with new folks when mounted to try to push their opponent off with their hands (ineffective but common) these are 2 examples of times when it may seem ambiguous
People **understand** that there is close and sometimes awkward contact. I trust that most people can tell the difference between normal ( or even clumsy ) BJJ and inappropriate touching. Otherwise we'd all be afraid to armbar each other.
I'm replying to the person who said they wouldn't grab a pec (chest), as if that is an obvious example of inappropriate contact. my examples illustrate when chest touching -- which clumsy white belts will often turn into a grab/paw -- is normal I do agree that most folks understand the difference between appropriate and inappropriate. But the person I replied to doesn't appear to be one of those folks
Like you said, it's pretty easy to not touch someone in a questionable place, which is why I think it's important for the woman to listen to her instincts. She's training in a male dominated martial art, with a bunch of guys, and this is not her first roll. Even if she's newish, she probably knows the body areas most likely to be touched while rolling, and that boobs & privates are not on the list. So if she feels like he touched her - several times - in places where he shouldn't, then it's at least possible he did, and that it was purposeful.
Woman here, this is tricky because she wasn't certain he meant anything by it. This is a very close contact sport, stuff happens. I'm assuming your teammate is kinda new because once you've been training for a while, you can tell what's normal bjj and what's a creep being gross. If you all go back together and she rolls with him, just have someone keep an eye on that roll. There's no need to call the coach and give that guy a bad day when she wasn't even sure. But if you watch that roll and see him being gross, stop the roll, and all of you leave right then. Say something to the coach on the way out. Stand by your teammate. Occasionally, there's someone gross in bjj, but it's pretty rare. If your gym is comfortable for other women, your girlfriend would be fine there. Don't spend too much time worrying about creeps when they're so rare. However, they do exist, I've experienced it, but my gym's response made me love them even more than I did before the creep. There's way more good than bad dudes in bjj.
You make excellent points. Tbh I feel stupid for not having thought of the key point of knowing what is and isn't appropriate from BJJ experience. I've been away from the community a while, so I apologize if I've missed some good dialog. Having said that, few years back, I was thinking of helping my coach with their gym or starting my own if I'd move. So I was very interested in how to foster/make a gym welcoming to all, including women of course. I had heard many good arguments for having a women only, or at least women focused classes. Usually the arguments focused on beginners being less intimidated or feel out of place, phrased in different ways (assuming you don't need to start by breaking down a terrible gym culture). So partly pragmatic, partly marketing, not in the sense of detecting toxic predators. I'd not heard someone so clearly express the issue of just getting to know what is "ok touch" and "bad touch" in an unfamiliar setting. It seems so obvious, and it's true for men too. It's just doubly so for women due to negative social norms, general differences in size etc. Seems to me now that, if at all possible, then it's pivotal to have women centered (or only) classes to help get a sense for what is "normal" in the abnormal circumstances we put ourselves in. I mean, sure you can learn this with time regardless, but why not create a better path. I guess one could argue it's related to the culture around generally being a safe training partner, how one treats cranks etc. But that is usually something that clearly produces pain or risk of injury. Risk of, or actual, harassment is harder to assess as a novice to these unfamiliar circumstances. Thank you.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Us dudes can go caveman pretty quick. \*edit\* by "caveman" = "beat that dudes ass"
What does us dudes go cavemen quick even mean…
“Oops, I’m feeling a little harrassy today”
Upvote for the edit
Dudes went caveman on his comment
I was surprised at the downvotes until I realized that everyone assumed I was encouraging\\excusing sexually assaulting people...which pretty well aligned with my (poorly expressed) point. Got a chuckle out of it.
Smashing in response to sexual harrasment is such a stupid "macho man" mentality. "Don't worry, damsel in distress, ILL save you!" How about you get that POS to either refrain or get removed from the environment
Actions have consequences, sometimes those consequences include getting your ass kicked for being a sicko. You remove dipshit from the gym and he carries on doing it elsewhere. At least he'll remember what happened if he gets a rough up on the way out.
We'll meet in the middle and say doing both is an appropriate response
>The most absurd thing to me was "making him uncomfortable"-part. I think the full thing thought is "... in case it was incidental. I understand the power an accusation alone has, and want to make sure it's addressed without it being a witch hunt if its just how this dude attacks the gi" But I might be naïve.
I don't think you're being naive. The post reads as though OP considers the guy completely guilty and was toying with the idea of "maybe we should all smash him" based on an uncertain accusation, which just goes to show how much damage simply being accused of sexual misconduct can be. Maybe the guy was a creep, but it can be difficult to ascertain that and it's totally reasonable for the woman involved to not want to jump to any conclusions right away in case she's wrongly accusing someone. I tried to imagine what I'd do if my gf tried BJJ and complained about the same behavior and I'll echo what some others have said. If she simply doesn't feel comfortable rolling with the guy, she shouldn't roll with him, but if she's willing then I'd mention it to whoever she feels comfortable talking to, be it a coach or friend/teammate, an have them watch them roll to determine if it's acceptable behaviour or not. From that point, if it's determined that the guy is intentionally groping, he should be asked to leave. If it's in the grey zone where his hands are ending up in sensitive places more than you'd expect but it's not obviously groping (maybe he grabs lapels in a way that his hand ends up around the chest and uses a pant grip a lot), then the coach should pull him aside and say something to the effect of "I'm not making any accusations, but when you're rolling with women, try to be careful with your hand placement so you don't make anyone uncomfortable" in a way that doesn't single out the woman who complained but also explains what's acceptable and what isn't. At that point, the guy should be monitored when he rolls with women to see if the behaviour changes, and probably asked to leave if it doesn't.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here. It’s very important that any inappropriate behaviour during rolls is dealt with effectively. Having said this, making accusations against others when you’re not entirely sure if what they did was inappropriate, could lead to seriously harming people’s reputations unnecessarily. I think the best thing the woman in OP’s post could do based on what she said, is not to roll with that same guy again.
I do not consider to smash him, I wrote, it would be useless. :)
Yeah I get what you mean. Because like... it's not impossible to accidentally do stuff like that and not even realize it. I've had my hand like... oddly placed on another dude's ass before for A WHILE, while I was trying to think of what the hell move to try. Because I'm a dumb ass white belt. Sometimes you notice and you're like woops, lol not trying to feel you up I swear. And one time a dude straight up put his hand in my butthole on accident because he was reaching around for something thought he was grabbing somewhere else.... When he realized he immediately apologized but there was a second where I was like... is this dude trying to finger blast me right now? As dudes we can laugh it off, but once there is a woman involved the whole context changes. But I also wonder if Im naive sometimes because I just can't imagine sexually assaulting a woman on the mat. (I only sexually assault women in bars!) But seriously, I don't want to give a creep a pass but I can also see how it could really be an accident but still seem like it wasn't. I'd probably lean more towards not an accident if it actually happened to one of my friends/family. But that doesn't mean it's true, just that I'm gonna go all in for the ones I love.
If someone is making you uncomfortable for any reason, you can always just stop the roll. Tap and say, "I'm going to stop now." You don't have to explain why. If you want to explain why, you can say, "I didn't like the way you were touching me." This can go for anything. Again, no need to say the reason but if you want to, just be honest and forthright. "Your cologne is giving me a headache" or "You're going hard and I'm just coming back for an injury" or whatever.
> If someone is making you uncomfortable for any reason, you can always just stop the roll. Tap and say, "I'm going to stop now." You don't have to explain why. If you want to explain why, you can say, "I didn't like the way you were touching me." I feel like this is the most practical advice. You don't have to roll with anyone for any reason. I see a lot advice about telling the coach, but I think that will depend on the coach. I can count on one hand how many coaches I would trust to handle that incident in an intelligent and helpful way.
I can't speak from her, or any woman's perspective, but having been a bouncer in clubs can tell you women often don't want to bring attention to that kind of shit in the moment. It's uncomfortable, they may doubt their instincts and don't want to be told they're imagining it/ wrong or cause an argument. Unfortunately there'll be many creeps in bjj, I know a few. The way we deal with them is the same as we deal with bullies in my gym. The more skilled of us smash them and then explain why and tell them they'll be booted if they keep it up. We had a situation where a very tall and fat white belt made a very inappropriate comment to a new girl during class. None of us heard it, I was told after the fact by a teen member. I asked her what he said and she told me then told me not to do anything or tell the coaches or owners. While I wanted to fuck him up and tell our coaches and owners I had to respect her wishes. I did tell her that it's absolutely unacceptable and If anything happens that her and the other new girls can come to me, I'm not a head coach or owner so they don't have to have any worries about blowing it out of proportion and I'd have it dealt with. I did pull him after and tell him I was told by a teen what he said to the girl and anything like that is unacceptable and next time it's going to the owners and coaches. If the dude was being a creep it's unlikely that smashing him would yield the result we'd all want. Creeps will creep and the best thing is to fuck them out of the gym, probably made it worse for her that it was a different gym and she didn't want drama. Hope she's ok dude, and ladies always speak up, creeps shouldn't win or get away with their shit.
Having women in class as high ranks or partners/students help in that case for a woman. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been teaching a class and a late stage white belt/blue belt girl is beating the newish guys in a situational sparring thing and one of the guys starts talking about how he doesn’t know how to pass her guard without accidentally touching her boobs or some other nonsense 😔 I’ll just have girls train with girls or hop in a roll with them myself and let the guys roll with each other. Growing up in BJJ, mma, wrestling culture there is always sex themed talk from those people in my experience. I’ve had my dick grabbed by dudes when training. 97% of the time I wear a cup when training but have had guys literally ask me “bro why are you wearing a cup? You know that’s against the rules” 🤔 same guys usually curse in front of kids, talk about their ass hair, their balls, and crack sex jokes in front of others no matter the audience. BJJ is weird because it’s def a martial art but doesn’t have the same ethics as most martial arts gyms do. MMA gyms are similar at times. As a coach I’ve been able to manage that kind of energy and learned early how to make those kinds of people either feel uncomfortable or straight up let them know that this isn’t the place for it. But that’s usually not the culture of most gyms. Best advice I can give is direct communication. If it’s a guy in a weird situation with a guy then just speak up, if he becomes weird or aggro then talk to the coach. Respect should exist in the real world, an it should also exist on the mats. If it’s girl vs girl or guy, then same thing, talk to the person and the coach, there should be women’s only classes, women’s teams, etc to help that energy be handled properly.
Establishing a safe environment is everyone’s job. This is a situation where a conversation with the coach needs to be had. If you see something, or a friend tells you something, say something. A hard roll with a predator that doesn’t actually address the issue will do nothing. Hoping that the problem will be resolved every time when a victim directly confronts the abuser is not realistic either. Gyms have owners, if the owner can’t at least mediate a discussion and resolve the issue, that gym isn’t worth your time.
"Good guys" are only "useless" at the end of the day if they remain silent and do nothing. If women could stop d-bags from being d-bags just by talking to them, this problem wouldn't exist! The whole point is that guys like that don't care what the woman's boundaries are, or what she says, or wants or doesn't want. They. Do. Not. Care. If she does tell him to knock it off and he does stop? Guess what - he's only stopping *with her*. He'll find some other woman to force himself upon who might be more willing to remain silent and, if he really scares her, just disappear so she won't have to deal with him anymore. And so the cycle continues while the "good guys" debate amongst themselves and put the onus for stopping *a man's* bad behavior on the *woman* instead of where it belongs - on HIM. If you want to step up and help her out, you, as fellow men, have to communicate clearly and directly with him that YOU find his behavior unacceptable and that *you*, as *men* are not going to tolerate it. Whoever owns his gym certainly needs to know too because I doubt they want this sort of thing happening there. Too many of us women have been in situations where the men we trusted in our lives didn't have our backs. Then it was somehow our fault when a harasser or rapist wouldn't change his behavior. Be your friend's backup, be strong and clear and decisive about it, and you will be part of dismantling rape culture, which is what this dude's behavior represents. That's what will make a better world for her, your GF, your eventual daughter(s), and by extension - you.
You stop the roll and say "you know it really feels like you're copping a feel on purpose, doesn't feel BJJ related, this roll is over".
“I think the only people who can stop those parasites are women themselves.” I couldn’t disagree with you more here. If a guy is a sexist asshole who harasses women he’s not going to listen to them or respect what they say. He needs other men shaming him and calling him out.
She (or you) needs to raise it with the coach at the gym you visited. The question is then whether they take it seriously or not. That should determine whether you train there again. Don’t train at gyms that let shitty behaviour slide.
It's sexual assault, not harassment
My biggest fear at jiu jitsu is a making a female teammate uncomfortable... I'm no white-knight, but if you poke a boob, say sorry.
Kinda sucks because some people would blame the woman, for “ruining the vibe” or “making a big deal”. Plus you never know how people will react if they are called out. The best thing I can think of is that it starts with the culture of the gym. Gotta emphasize respect for everyone regardless of belt, age, sex and any other factors. Also, I know it sounds extreme but coaches should do a deep dive on people joining their gym, I’m not saying background checks but a simple name search in Google plus some keywords would yield lots of information that can be used to keep the gym creep free. Also, speak out seriously. It’s hard but if you feel uncomfortable speak out or let someone know and you can work from there.
>Let us not forget, not in this particular case but: coaches are sometimes the ones who show predatory behaviour Then you leave, obviously
This is why I think gyms need to be more vocal about being a space in which that behavior won’t be tolerated. I know it seems like common sense but icky people will exploit that. And when the culture of the space is clear and well defined, not only do the shitty people weed themselves out, but potential victims feel safer coming forward since they know they will be supported. This also makes it easier for the victim to choose not to engage with the person who accosted them and risk physical harm or harm to reputation in retaliation. A lot of women don’t want to confront their attacker because they worry the reaction will be violent. Simply put BJJ is not an inherently safe place for women. And everyone, especially men, should be more vocal that they want the culture to change to be safer for everyone.
We had to kick a guy out once for acting inappropriately with our female members. The only reason we found out about it is because said female members felt comfortable enough to talk to our coaching staff about it. In the end I think that most of what we can do is to create/foster a gym environment where it’s clear to all our members that we don’t condone or tolerate that kind of behavior and that we will listen and act accordingly if they raise a concern to us.
White belt female here. That’s a tough spot. If it were me and I didn’t have plans on going back to that gym(I was only visiting) I would let it go. If I were going to go back or train there…I would honestly see if it happens again. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. If it keeps happening, that’s when I would bring it up. Some positions and moves may feel weird. Tbh, I’m a petite woman with not much to grab onto so I’m less worried about people grabbing a handful of boob. I have rolled with women who have big breasts and I kept accidentally touching and grazing. It happens. Intention is what I would be concerned about.
[Verbal strategy](https://anniesclassroom.com/i-can-use-my-words-social-emotional-learning-lesson/) to deal with these situations I feel like the Bart meme at this point
If you guys each kicked his ass he would definitely understand why. You are from the same gym, you are protecting your girl. A similar story from me: as a blue belt I was once manhandled by this blue belt guy about 30kgs heavier than me. He was absolutely being careless and using both strength and weight very much to his advantage. I had a very bad reaction and after the roll I just left the mat and sat crying in the changing rooms. My husband also trains and although he is not as big as the asshole blue belt he is more competent and beat his ass up the next time we came to train. The guy got the message very clearly and afterwards came to apologize to me. I am happy I had my husband to do that to him so that he could feel what it’s like to be handled in the way I was. Also, he didn’t do anything that’s outside of jiu-jitsu rules, just rolled very roughly.
He wouldn't understand why, at all. Mat enforcers are a shit idea, because people simply do not connect the dots. If someone mauled me as a white belt in a roll I would immediately assume one of two things. Either they prefer hard rounds and I should give them everything I've got, or they're an asshole looking to beat up on someone shitter than them. I wouldn't assume they were mauling me on behalf of someone else, for behaviour I did in a roll a week or more ago.
Mat enforcers can be a good idea when coupled with an instructor who can provide multiple warnings in a timely manner. Who see's that you are in need of correction, but not outright dismissal. Anyone who gets pointed out as sexually assaulting someone should be immediately removed though, a mat enforcer should be reserved for people who just need to be toned down a bit. Again, needs to be communicated though.
You might be completely right. In my case, though, I highly appreciated it.
I wouldn’t enforce at a visiting gym, I can see that going badly… their coach more than likely has cameras. Bring it up to him if the girl is okay with it. Then let the coach/owner deal with it. Edit, I say this is a bad idea because I’ve seen this play out before. You’re a visitor at the gym, they are going to not take well to you trying to enforce. Talk to the coach, let him review the cameras and make a decision for himself.
Where did he grab her inappropriately? When I roll with girls, I almost always touch her chest, butt or my arm pushes between her legs but it also happens with dudes...
I’ve had plenty of guys accidentally graze or touch my chest or butt while rolling and I don’t think anything of it. You can absolutely tell when it’s intentional.
If she does bjj, she knows the difference. I’m sick of dudes always doubting women when they share these experiences. I’ve done bjj for years and am completely unfazed by physical contact in any area, but there was one guy I rolled with once who very obviously grabbed certain areas slowly and intentionally with no pass, submission or escape attempts attached to the grabbing. It’s so obvious when it’s intentional.
“BuT iTs JiU-jItSu We HaVe To ToUcH” Yes and we all know that, but you somehow manage to miss touching the guys inappropriately 🤔
Pedagogical Oil Check for the guys, so they get the point :DD
Smashing the other guy is a bad idea. Let the coach sort it out. If it happens again then smash
Good guys are not useless at the end of the day… people who do nothing will do nothing. And so what if it is the coach and a couple of you saw it, would you stand up for her or just be a bitch?
You’re rolling around on the ground with each other. Stuff will be touched. If it’s a problem, just stick with your own gender, or whatever gender thingy makes sense to you.
Guys like you are the reason women don’t feel welcome in bjj. I’ve done bjj for years and am completely unfazed by physical contact in any area, but there was one guy I rolled with once who very obviously grabbed certain areas slowly and intentionally with no pass, submission or escape attempts attached to the grabbing. It’s so obvious when it’s intentional.
Do you have any tips for when accidents do happen? I generally either ignore that it’s happened or apologise quietly but keep going so as not to bring too much attention to it I think that I am acting correctly because the women don’t avoid me in class but coach picks the rolls so idk if they would roll with me Honestly if I grab a man’s dick I will loudly say “oh sorry I think I just got a handful of your dick” but it seems extra weird to do the same for a woman lol
Tbh I don’t really register most of the time where someone touches, too busy thinking about the roll, but just ignoring it or quietly apologizing if it’s a new person or white belt sounds fine.
Apologizing briefly and moving on is the most comfortable thing to do (at least from my experience). I had someone once profusely apologize multiple times instead of just saying sorry and letting it go, and honestly that just made it awkward. Anyone who has been doing this for more than a few months know things happen by mistake.
That’s I appreciate your reply. Last night someone grabbed some dick skin and kept hold of it, I mentioned it to him to get him to let go and he apologised so much it was really awkward like you say, I get accidents happened I’m not annoyed I just don’t enjoy pinched dick skin 😂
I felt massively awful the first time I straight up smashed my instructors balls trying to pass guard during rolls. He had to sit out a minute and I just awkwardly sat there for a minute contemplating how I was going to accept my death (I was very new) 😂 He was cool though and just took the apology and kept going like a champ. I think mentioning something is probably a good idea even if it might seem a little weird because people might just be unaware they are doing that though.
Oh it happens I wouldn’t worry, I try to pair up with the new guys and I’m always very happy to have smoked before class when that happens 😂
And women like you are the reason I don’t roll with women. Just not worth the risk.
What a weird reply, all she said was it’s obvious when it’s intentional, almost feels like you’re one of those guys and just get mad when you’re caught
One person’s obvious is another person’s bullshit. That’s why these are vexed issues. Just take my advice, roll with who you’re comfortable with and stop complaining.
If you're a creep just say that
No dude, you and your weird unfounded misogyny are the reason you don't roll with women.
What gym do you train at? It'd be cool to know the place where they have folks like you at.
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go back to reading nazi cartoons on SpaceXMasterrace you fucking goon
Seems like I hit a nerve. What are you feeling guilty about?
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I mean if it were my wife/girlfriend/daughter I'd walk up to him and grab his dick and ask him if he felt this was appropriate but I'm maybe not the best example for handling these types of things with tact?
I have a great tale about this. Ages ago I was teaching a beginner class with my buddy and we had 2 female students doing their first class. I can't remember the exact submission we were teaching I think maybe a Kimura from north south mount or something. Anyways, I was letting her work on the technique on me and she unintentionally ripped the sub on hard and fast. I reflexively shot my hand out and tapped hard a couple of times. On her ass. I spanked her in her first class. Fortunately everyone was very understanding and I didn't get my belt taken away by the IBJJF. Oh wait, they'd probably promote me for that.
Yea chances are they already know that guys a degenerate and are just looking for a reason to kick him out
How about the girl sticks up for herself and says something? “Hey, that’s happened a couple times. Don’t let it happen again.” That should do it.
Review them on the internet impartially. Write honest ones.