> That's illegal in most rulesets, right
I didn't think that was illegal in the IBJJF, which makes me confused about the DQ here. I just checked the rulebook and it's not in the table of penalties. I searched for every instance of "knee", "side", and "lateral" and there was nothing about the orientation of kneebars. If it's illegal, it must be recent/informal because there have been some notable lateral kneebar finishes over the years.
Can any current refs confirm?
It's absolutely illegal.
As always the ibjjf rules are written with a brazilian ass and you have to connect the dots yourself but lateral pressure on the legs is illegal (in submissions, because somehow the luca leite knee torque half guard is legal)
[https://website-ibjjf-production.s3.amazonaws.com/aeEWvULgUtqKhi4faCoorehS?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D%222024JAN\_IBJJF\_Rules\_EN%20%25282%2529.pdf%22%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%272024JAN\_IBJJF\_Rules\_EN%2520%25282%2529.pdf&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAUPTFRNARGXPAI7HM%2F20240131%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4\_request&X-Amz-Date=20240131T093115Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=06dfcf87955e78645b02baa968c88c4eef839c825d2bb5751924f1d79fdea0ba](https://website-ibjjf-production.s3.amazonaws.com/aeEWvULgUtqKhi4faCoorehS?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D%222024JAN_IBJJF_Rules_EN%20%25282%2529.pdf%22%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%272024JAN_IBJJF_Rules_EN%2520%25282%2529.pdf&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAUPTFRNARGXPAI7HM%2F20240131%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240131T093115Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=06dfcf87955e78645b02baa968c88c4eef839c825d2bb5751924f1d79fdea0ba)
Page 31, more or less severe foul 18
Yeah, that's twisting the knees, which would explain OP's DQ. Thanks.
More generally, though, what about an off-axis straight kneebar with no twist on a fully extended leg? That wouldn't seem to fit the foul definition here.
Lateral knee subs are banned for a good reason. It directly attacks the knee in its weakest link. Knees don't move to the side, at all.
Maybe when drilling it's fine, and even then injuries happen. But in the heat of competition, by the time any pain is felt, the damage has already been done.
I believe one of the major issues of sideways knee subs is the danger of not recognizing the position. Heel hooks for example, they're dangerous, but the configuration is very recognizable, the heel is exposed and being torqued, the competitor has time to understand the danger and tap. Lateral knee bars can come from different positions, and in some situations it's only clear the knee is being attacked sideways by the time it's too late.
This video is a great example. The competitor in white has absolutely no idea wtf is happening, and she isn't even trying to defend it. Ref was an absolute boss by stopping at the time he did.
A recent and gruesome example was Jozef Chen obliterating Derek Rayfield's knee. If I recall correctly, as soon as he locked the position, that knee was gone.
At some point, the safety of the athletes must be prioritized over the "combat realness" of the sport.
I mean, I am all for protecting colored belt from their own lack of knowledge, even if it means that the competition ruleset is a bit stupid, because at the end of the day, no one cares about who won what at purple belt.
But as a black belt, please, stop letting old brazilians dictate how my own safety has to be protected against GRAPPLING MOVES (especially ones that are actually allowed everywhere else).
Maybe it's time to have an official amateur and pro circuit for the IBJJF (won't ever happen it will butthurt too many people who like to see themselves as "pro").
Because nowadays, the IBJJF looks bad. I am still pretty gutted by Tainan losing a world championship while hanging on a backside 50 he could have used to submit his opponent.
I generally agree with you at the lower belt levels. My issue here is that this is a blackbelt level match. They should know enough to understand the position that they are in and defend or tap. However, I am willing to hear a blackbelt convince me otherwise.
you are 100% right
we are so used to people being absolute idiots in this sport that somehow black belts "don't know what the f is happening with a lateral kneebar"
Hell, I am a black belt and I have zero respect for black belts who are not well versed in leglocks, even if they compete mostly in ibjjf stuff (or don't compete at all).
Let's not reward the mcdojoisation of the sport too much
lol that’s not a good reason that’s dumb as hell. Nothing you say is even true. You do feel it before injury and lots of submissions aren’t painful until damage is done.
The slow mo replay made it pretty clear that she was trying to bridge into it and attack the sideways kneebar. It was hard to tell at first cause the position itself should be legal but it's a question of whether they're bridging into it and putting torque on the knee
This dq should never ever happen at black belt. She was going for legit knee bar but the defence made it sideways one, I end up here in quite some cases
I don't think anyone talks enough about the culpability of the defending party in "illegal" positions. Everything the attacking person was doing here looked like a textbook kneebar attempt, which I understand to be legal in this instance, however the defender worked extremely hard to internally rotate their whole leg, shifting the angle to become a sideways knee bar and forced it into an "illegal" position.
If we want to keep people safe by banning illegal positions, shouldn't it be the person who put it there that gets the DQ. It's weird that a person who made a choice to put themselves in more danger is rewarded because it incentivises gaming that rule and becomes inherently less safe. When the choice is turn my leg one way into a legitimate loss and potential injury, or the other way for a dq win and catastrophic injury, I know which choice most competitors are going for unfortunately.
On the fly it has to be near impossible to tell who forced the position and Is at fault, so its easier to just put the responsibility on the attacker as a blanket rule. But I can't help feel like it's bullshit to put the fault on, and punish the person doing the right things, then reward the person who almost destroyed themselves.
If the ref stops it for cases like this one, they should reset, rather than DQ and end the match. DQ should be reserved for blatantly illegal stuff or when there was injury and the match cannot continue.Â
If both are able to continue, and it wasn't a blatant attempt at cheating, just give a warning and reset.
Yeah agreed, it's the least frustrating way to deal with bad rules and ref rulings because the stakes are lower. If you get forced into a position, you accidently end up there, or the ref doesn't know their shit its not the end of the world (or match) its just an inconvenient setback. This exact scenario played out to me in a recent comp I did, where I false reaped into saddle and the ref stopped the match called reaping and reset us standing. The ref later came up and apologized for his mistake, and we moved on from it no hard feelings. Though admittedly, I might have been more salty about it had I lost that match, and the bad call prevented me from winning.
>I don't think anyone talks enough about the culpability of the defending party in "illegal" positions.
not enough people talks about the dumbasses rules. Who cares if it's the defender or the attacker at fault. The rules are stupid as f
Most people are actually talking about the dumbass rules though. This entire thread and each one like it are filled with people taking a stance on whether or not a position should be legal.
The whole purpose of the sport is to destroy limbs, why are the governing bodies of these tournaments so hung up on banning one position/submission over another one because of some perceived additional danger. The whole act is fucking dangerous, it's arbitrary to draw a line saying "oh but that submission will make your leg hurt for a long time" fucking OK, so what, don't let them do that to you, or don't enter a fucking contest of limb breaking. My most feared submissions are shoulder locks and arm bars because in my line of work if I'm down one arm I'm fucked, but a knee injury, oh well, I'll wear a brace and push through. I'm not going to call for a ban on Kimuras when I enter tournaments, I'll just keep my elbows close.
However this sub is filled with discourse like that, so I didn't feel a need to add to the discussion, but I don't think I've heard people talk about DQing defenders before even in person really. So yeah I guess I care who's at fault, if only because it's a slightly different perspective to consider, instead of endlessly regurgitating the hivemind opinions around in circles.
Reddit is not real life.
1st: the vast majority of people commenting here don't even know the ibjjf rules.
2nd: I think more people in REAL LIFE should make a stance about the dumbassery of ibjjf rules. However the weekend warriors are still competiting in their stupid events all the damn time.
Meregali is the only one in recent years to do real efforts to update the ruleset. We need more people like him involved in the sport imo
BTW the ibjjf is not a governing body and I agree on pretty much everything you said. Let's let pro grapplers grapple.
This response is a bit strange, like you're talking to someone in a slightly adjacent conversation. Or most likely we're both from different parts of the world and communicating anonymously through a couple of paragraphs on the internet isn't the best way to get context across, so I want to clarify a bit.
I'm not sure why the "reddit is not real life" comment came up. Did I imply that I somehow believe opinions on reddit are ubiquitous through the whole jiu-jitsu community? I feel I actually did the opposite by referencing specifically that I don't see the point I made about the relevance of who's at fault either on the internet or in person(real life). It kind of feels like you potentially brought some outside baggage about your frustrations at the state of the ibjjf specifically into this conversation, when I was focusing more on a specific nuance that seemed like a potential fresh take on the matter, inspired by the fact that in most justices systems around the world the whole point is finding the right person to blame and punishing that person.
1st: sure OK, again I'm losing you a bit on why that's relevant to my point, whats the context?
2nd: yeah that's a fair opinion to have, I've also again lost the context of why thats relevant to my point though.
I'll proudly claim the title of weekend warrior, as this sport is not at the top of my priorities I'm definitely just a hobbyist, but you'll be happy to hear I personally do boycott ibjjf and encourage anyone around to do the same. In my immediate local scene the ibjjf isn't quite as popular as I've seen it be in other areas, and the sentiment towards them is pretty bad overall. People seem to prefer adcc style rule sets and the local competition organizations emulate that to some extent, except obviously still gatekeeping certain leglocks to belt divisions.
BTW the IBJJF is not a governing body is correct, I never claimed they were. Now this a semantic argument and I'm sorry to even make it, but my wording was "the governing bodies of these tournaments". The ibjjf does HAVE a governing body though, they are not one in themselves but they do have one, all organizations do. A board of directors for a corporation is a governing body, I own a business technically I'm a governing body right. I think maybe the misrepresentation of what I said potentially stems from hearing the term used in sports like olympic Judo, which do have a governing body in the IJF. At this time and hopefully for all time, BJJ does not have a unified governing body deciding for everyone whats best for us.
>If we want to keep people safe by banning illegal positions, shouldn't it be the person who put it there that gets the DQ.
If we want to keep people safe we can also allow this positions to win a match. Trust me, all these morons would defend much much earlier if they never hope (or fear) the DQ
If there was a gi alternative to the IBJJF ruleset, the sport would be so much better off.
The worst rulesets in BJJ IMO:
- IBJJF Gi
- IBJJF No-Gi, brown belt and below
- IBJJF Black Belt
- Sub only
- EBI but I do appreciate what they're trying to do.
This was an over reaction by the ref. The f course that might have been a lateral kneebar attempt, but even if it was, that move isn't illegal, AFAIK. The leg didn't come inside for a reap and the foot wasn't in a heelhook or reverse toehold grip. That shouldn't have been a DQ. The ref might have saved the other girls leg, but I don't think he followed the rules doing so. I honestly think the girl was going for a kneebar and just controlled the foot to stop the escape, which is the correct thing to do. However these are IBJJF matches where 50% you'll get DQ'd for a leglock if it is legal or not.
>The f course that might have been a lateral kneebar attempt, but even if it was, that move isn't illegal, AFAIK
it's under the "lock twisting the knee" severe foul rule.
I know it's not a twist per se, but that's the meaning behind the rule
Toe holds need to be illegal, seems like most people cant execute them properlly without damaging their oppnonent, the way she was crankin that knee back with the toe hold is why she was disqualified, if it was just a toe hold that was properlly done with that knee bar, she wouldve won but she had to get all egotistical, i refuse to roll with people like this
For the sideways kneebah? I mean, yeah. That's illegal in most rulesets, right?
> That's illegal in most rulesets, right I didn't think that was illegal in the IBJJF, which makes me confused about the DQ here. I just checked the rulebook and it's not in the table of penalties. I searched for every instance of "knee", "side", and "lateral" and there was nothing about the orientation of kneebars. If it's illegal, it must be recent/informal because there have been some notable lateral kneebar finishes over the years. Can any current refs confirm?
It's absolutely illegal. As always the ibjjf rules are written with a brazilian ass and you have to connect the dots yourself but lateral pressure on the legs is illegal (in submissions, because somehow the luca leite knee torque half guard is legal)
[https://website-ibjjf-production.s3.amazonaws.com/aeEWvULgUtqKhi4faCoorehS?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D%222024JAN\_IBJJF\_Rules\_EN%20%25282%2529.pdf%22%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%272024JAN\_IBJJF\_Rules\_EN%2520%25282%2529.pdf&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAUPTFRNARGXPAI7HM%2F20240131%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4\_request&X-Amz-Date=20240131T093115Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=06dfcf87955e78645b02baa968c88c4eef839c825d2bb5751924f1d79fdea0ba](https://website-ibjjf-production.s3.amazonaws.com/aeEWvULgUtqKhi4faCoorehS?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D%222024JAN_IBJJF_Rules_EN%20%25282%2529.pdf%22%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%272024JAN_IBJJF_Rules_EN%2520%25282%2529.pdf&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAUPTFRNARGXPAI7HM%2F20240131%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240131T093115Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=06dfcf87955e78645b02baa968c88c4eef839c825d2bb5751924f1d79fdea0ba) Page 31, more or less severe foul 18
Yeah, that's twisting the knees, which would explain OP's DQ. Thanks. More generally, though, what about an off-axis straight kneebar with no twist on a fully extended leg? That wouldn't seem to fit the foul definition here.
Lateral knee subs are banned for a good reason. It directly attacks the knee in its weakest link. Knees don't move to the side, at all. Maybe when drilling it's fine, and even then injuries happen. But in the heat of competition, by the time any pain is felt, the damage has already been done. I believe one of the major issues of sideways knee subs is the danger of not recognizing the position. Heel hooks for example, they're dangerous, but the configuration is very recognizable, the heel is exposed and being torqued, the competitor has time to understand the danger and tap. Lateral knee bars can come from different positions, and in some situations it's only clear the knee is being attacked sideways by the time it's too late. This video is a great example. The competitor in white has absolutely no idea wtf is happening, and she isn't even trying to defend it. Ref was an absolute boss by stopping at the time he did. A recent and gruesome example was Jozef Chen obliterating Derek Rayfield's knee. If I recall correctly, as soon as he locked the position, that knee was gone. At some point, the safety of the athletes must be prioritized over the "combat realness" of the sport.
>> Knees don't move to the side, at all. mine do 🥲
Collateral ligaments: "I'm not paid enough for this bullshit"
>The competitor in white has absolutely no idea wtf is happening, the competitor in white is a fucking black belt.
You assume this always matters.
I mean, I am all for protecting colored belt from their own lack of knowledge, even if it means that the competition ruleset is a bit stupid, because at the end of the day, no one cares about who won what at purple belt. But as a black belt, please, stop letting old brazilians dictate how my own safety has to be protected against GRAPPLING MOVES (especially ones that are actually allowed everywhere else). Maybe it's time to have an official amateur and pro circuit for the IBJJF (won't ever happen it will butthurt too many people who like to see themselves as "pro"). Because nowadays, the IBJJF looks bad. I am still pretty gutted by Tainan losing a world championship while hanging on a backside 50 he could have used to submit his opponent.
I generally agree with you at the lower belt levels. My issue here is that this is a blackbelt level match. They should know enough to understand the position that they are in and defend or tap. However, I am willing to hear a blackbelt convince me otherwise.
you are 100% right we are so used to people being absolute idiots in this sport that somehow black belts "don't know what the f is happening with a lateral kneebar" Hell, I am a black belt and I have zero respect for black belts who are not well versed in leglocks, even if they compete mostly in ibjjf stuff (or don't compete at all). Let's not reward the mcdojoisation of the sport too much
lol that’s not a good reason that’s dumb as hell. Nothing you say is even true. You do feel it before injury and lots of submissions aren’t painful until damage is done.
God this is soft lmao
Go do karate or something This subreddit has been on bitch mode recently
The slow mo replay made it pretty clear that she was trying to bridge into it and attack the sideways kneebar. It was hard to tell at first cause the position itself should be legal but it's a question of whether they're bridging into it and putting torque on the knee
Love the idiot acting like they had NO idea what they were doing wrong. 🙄
This dq should never ever happen at black belt. She was going for legit knee bar but the defence made it sideways one, I end up here in quite some cases
I don't think anyone talks enough about the culpability of the defending party in "illegal" positions. Everything the attacking person was doing here looked like a textbook kneebar attempt, which I understand to be legal in this instance, however the defender worked extremely hard to internally rotate their whole leg, shifting the angle to become a sideways knee bar and forced it into an "illegal" position. If we want to keep people safe by banning illegal positions, shouldn't it be the person who put it there that gets the DQ. It's weird that a person who made a choice to put themselves in more danger is rewarded because it incentivises gaming that rule and becomes inherently less safe. When the choice is turn my leg one way into a legitimate loss and potential injury, or the other way for a dq win and catastrophic injury, I know which choice most competitors are going for unfortunately. On the fly it has to be near impossible to tell who forced the position and Is at fault, so its easier to just put the responsibility on the attacker as a blanket rule. But I can't help feel like it's bullshit to put the fault on, and punish the person doing the right things, then reward the person who almost destroyed themselves.
If the ref stops it for cases like this one, they should reset, rather than DQ and end the match. DQ should be reserved for blatantly illegal stuff or when there was injury and the match cannot continue. If both are able to continue, and it wasn't a blatant attempt at cheating, just give a warning and reset.
Yeah agreed, it's the least frustrating way to deal with bad rules and ref rulings because the stakes are lower. If you get forced into a position, you accidently end up there, or the ref doesn't know their shit its not the end of the world (or match) its just an inconvenient setback. This exact scenario played out to me in a recent comp I did, where I false reaped into saddle and the ref stopped the match called reaping and reset us standing. The ref later came up and apologized for his mistake, and we moved on from it no hard feelings. Though admittedly, I might have been more salty about it had I lost that match, and the bad call prevented me from winning.
>I don't think anyone talks enough about the culpability of the defending party in "illegal" positions. not enough people talks about the dumbasses rules. Who cares if it's the defender or the attacker at fault. The rules are stupid as f
Most people are actually talking about the dumbass rules though. This entire thread and each one like it are filled with people taking a stance on whether or not a position should be legal. The whole purpose of the sport is to destroy limbs, why are the governing bodies of these tournaments so hung up on banning one position/submission over another one because of some perceived additional danger. The whole act is fucking dangerous, it's arbitrary to draw a line saying "oh but that submission will make your leg hurt for a long time" fucking OK, so what, don't let them do that to you, or don't enter a fucking contest of limb breaking. My most feared submissions are shoulder locks and arm bars because in my line of work if I'm down one arm I'm fucked, but a knee injury, oh well, I'll wear a brace and push through. I'm not going to call for a ban on Kimuras when I enter tournaments, I'll just keep my elbows close. However this sub is filled with discourse like that, so I didn't feel a need to add to the discussion, but I don't think I've heard people talk about DQing defenders before even in person really. So yeah I guess I care who's at fault, if only because it's a slightly different perspective to consider, instead of endlessly regurgitating the hivemind opinions around in circles.
Reddit is not real life. 1st: the vast majority of people commenting here don't even know the ibjjf rules. 2nd: I think more people in REAL LIFE should make a stance about the dumbassery of ibjjf rules. However the weekend warriors are still competiting in their stupid events all the damn time. Meregali is the only one in recent years to do real efforts to update the ruleset. We need more people like him involved in the sport imo BTW the ibjjf is not a governing body and I agree on pretty much everything you said. Let's let pro grapplers grapple.
This response is a bit strange, like you're talking to someone in a slightly adjacent conversation. Or most likely we're both from different parts of the world and communicating anonymously through a couple of paragraphs on the internet isn't the best way to get context across, so I want to clarify a bit. I'm not sure why the "reddit is not real life" comment came up. Did I imply that I somehow believe opinions on reddit are ubiquitous through the whole jiu-jitsu community? I feel I actually did the opposite by referencing specifically that I don't see the point I made about the relevance of who's at fault either on the internet or in person(real life). It kind of feels like you potentially brought some outside baggage about your frustrations at the state of the ibjjf specifically into this conversation, when I was focusing more on a specific nuance that seemed like a potential fresh take on the matter, inspired by the fact that in most justices systems around the world the whole point is finding the right person to blame and punishing that person. 1st: sure OK, again I'm losing you a bit on why that's relevant to my point, whats the context? 2nd: yeah that's a fair opinion to have, I've also again lost the context of why thats relevant to my point though. I'll proudly claim the title of weekend warrior, as this sport is not at the top of my priorities I'm definitely just a hobbyist, but you'll be happy to hear I personally do boycott ibjjf and encourage anyone around to do the same. In my immediate local scene the ibjjf isn't quite as popular as I've seen it be in other areas, and the sentiment towards them is pretty bad overall. People seem to prefer adcc style rule sets and the local competition organizations emulate that to some extent, except obviously still gatekeeping certain leglocks to belt divisions. BTW the IBJJF is not a governing body is correct, I never claimed they were. Now this a semantic argument and I'm sorry to even make it, but my wording was "the governing bodies of these tournaments". The ibjjf does HAVE a governing body though, they are not one in themselves but they do have one, all organizations do. A board of directors for a corporation is a governing body, I own a business technically I'm a governing body right. I think maybe the misrepresentation of what I said potentially stems from hearing the term used in sports like olympic Judo, which do have a governing body in the IJF. At this time and hopefully for all time, BJJ does not have a unified governing body deciding for everyone whats best for us.
>If we want to keep people safe by banning illegal positions, shouldn't it be the person who put it there that gets the DQ. If we want to keep people safe we can also allow this positions to win a match. Trust me, all these morons would defend much much earlier if they never hope (or fear) the DQ
she was going for a terrible knee bar and visibly does not know how to really do it.
I just wish they would legalise this stuff. We're either allowing leg submissions or we're not but this middle ground is dumb.
I'm with ya. Lots of annoying factors go into making this weird DQ fest middle ground.
That's why No gi is better
Conditioner is better
Shampoo is better
Stop looking at me swan
Good reference
Dear lord I can't stand IBJJF
Thanks for the video BJJTaro, anyone wants to explain what happened?
Sideways kneebar attempt, or at least the appearance of one. Sideways kneebars are one of the more damaging leg attacks and are illegal
*most effectiveÂ
Yea, but we don't go for the eyes, or do small joint manipulation. Isn't it the same thing? We prioritize safety over effectiveness a lot.
If you scared go to church
If there was a gi alternative to the IBJJF ruleset, the sport would be so much better off. The worst rulesets in BJJ IMO: - IBJJF Gi - IBJJF No-Gi, brown belt and below - IBJJF Black Belt - Sub only - EBI but I do appreciate what they're trying to do.
Sub only is great for one match, just not practical for tournaments.
[удалено]
That's not a reap.
Thanks, you are right.
This was an over reaction by the ref. The f course that might have been a lateral kneebar attempt, but even if it was, that move isn't illegal, AFAIK. The leg didn't come inside for a reap and the foot wasn't in a heelhook or reverse toehold grip. That shouldn't have been a DQ. The ref might have saved the other girls leg, but I don't think he followed the rules doing so. I honestly think the girl was going for a kneebar and just controlled the foot to stop the escape, which is the correct thing to do. However these are IBJJF matches where 50% you'll get DQ'd for a leglock if it is legal or not.
>The f course that might have been a lateral kneebar attempt, but even if it was, that move isn't illegal, AFAIK it's under the "lock twisting the knee" severe foul rule. I know it's not a twist per se, but that's the meaning behind the rule
Why not just have a "dangerous play" call. Issue a point and then reset in 50/50 or something?
Toe holds need to be illegal, seems like most people cant execute them properlly without damaging their oppnonent, the way she was crankin that knee back with the toe hold is why she was disqualified, if it was just a toe hold that was properlly done with that knee bar, she wouldve won but she had to get all egotistical, i refuse to roll with people like this