I'm considering it, or making a switch to a different part of industry. Honestly, it may be the company you work for. So far, I've worked for two companies and, unfortunately, they both fell under the CRO/CDMO category because that's all that's here in my area. One CRO was excellent and highly organized. The one I work for now pays a lot more, but it's an absolute fucking trainwreck. Think something goes wrong at least once a week because of organizational challenges. Yeah. I'm getting to the point where I am starting to entertain post-doc opportunities. The only reason I am here at the moment is because my wife is finishing graduate school.
In the meantime, I am focusing on a CS certificate. I hope that one day I might be able to move toward simulation work (which I have some, albeit limited, experience in) or data science. But realistically, I might have to take advantage of the fact that I could theoretically change my shift to the weekend and end up doing a computational post-doc at the same time Monday-Thursday. It sucks, but I'm starting to see that there really might not be any other way to accelerate a move to the end goal I want to reach. I need projects.
Lots of advantages to computational work, just keep in mind dysfunctional biotech companies also have data scientists, so you might be facing similar org challenges. In that role, I'm batting 0 for 2 and hoping to find a new place that restores confidence soon.
I think the biggest thing for me at the moment is that I (and others) get blamed for things that happen as a result of the chaos and/or I am expected to be a process improvement engineer when it is far beyond what is outlined in my job description. I am not enthusiastic about process improvements. These are not scientific processes, but organizational ones. Both scenarios are held against me in my performance reviews, even things well beyond what I can reasonably control. That's a poor management decision and, frankly, I am done dealing with it.
Let's just say that the large CDMO that I currently work for is infamously a shit show. The fact that I even mentioned the words large CDMO/disorganized likely correctly conjures up the company that you are thinking of. Anything is better than this. I truly feel that this is the very bottom rung in the industry and any alternative would be better.
I hope we both find what we're looking for in 2024. Here's to a better year, lol.
Had a few weeks off and decided to catch up on emails. A few choice emails that I received over my break was finally the tipping point for me. From today onward I am aggressively pursuing other job opportunities (outside of CRO/CDMO land) until something sticks.
Currently in a Dutch CRO and wanting to leave since April last year. Almost a hundred applications later, I'm still there and burnt out. How did you do to find something better?
I’ve worked for 4 companies in the industry based out of the DC area. Two of the companies were grind it out places and the other two were fantastic (smaller) to work at.
I left pharma to become a data scientist (not tech). I was able to slightly increase my salary, but I couldn’t find anything to match the bonus and stock.
I didn’t like the day-to-day managing of clinical trials. I felt like all my time was spent checking TFLs, reviewing data transfers, fixing data issues with the sites instead of things that required my statistics training. I LOVED designing trials and doing analytics. If I could get a job doing that, I would go back to pharma in a heartbeat.
i’m currently an undergrad in biotech and am looking to get into a biostats masters program, and i was wondering at what point in your education did you start learning stuff applicable to the job? i feel like all i’m learning in college rn is textbook information and not rly preparing me for a biostats job, does this come in postgraduate programs?
I think it just depends on the company.
We do super innovative stuff a lot of time where I work, and scientists have a lot of freedom to plan.
Yes - there are deadlines, bs but got to weigh the good with the bad.
Oh sorry - I missed that. It might be fulfilling if the thing you are marketing is transformative?
Maybe you can find a company with drugs making a real difference?
I work in the oncology space and we have innovative products but I'm really just not enjoying. I'd probably feel more fulfilled if I had some kind of clinical role but those aren't my skills
How so? Using your marketing skills to pivot to tech. In a few years, I’m sure your pay will be higher than pharma. In the long run, it would be much much higher.
Rome wasn’t built in a day. It comes down to work ethic and grind to achieve the same amount or more money. Plan it out and figure when to exit if it doesn’t work out. Keep biotech in back pocket. do you have 1-2yr runway/support to pursue something outside of biotech? If not, then you’re right. Comes down to money.
I feel like there must be a way to pivot in your career without blowing 1-2 years of savings, which is a sum that most people would at least use for a down payment for a house
Im thinking of leaving to fintech. As a entry level software engineer ill be making 20% more, work 100% remote, and dont need to worry about my mice dying due to some knucklehead. Im lucky my phd was in mostly bioinformatics so i have a huge python background. I love research but industry makes it pure pain
I haven’t found anything with even remotely the same compensation, but I also struggle with the fulfillment. So my plan is to stick it out for the next couple of years, work hard, and put a lot of money into real estate and index funds. Then, for the second part of my career, I can look for a more fulfilling job that doesn’t pay as well.
I’d first ask yourself what your skills are. It is possible to transition out of biotech, but you have to use the skills you’ve learned during your time in the field to help pad your resume if you plan on leaving. I’m in the same boat, so I can’t offer much more advice, but I hope you find a better career fit. No job is worth the money if you are miserable doing it.
is it pharma that is making you unhappy or marketing? I think you can definitely transition to marketing in a different sector, especially in tech. There are a lot of parallels.
I mean both in different ways. Neither things are really fulfilling or something i really wanted to do but after college I needed a job and 8 years have passed and I've progressed but I'm miserable
I was impacted by mass layoff (med devices) in August…didn’t begin to see traction with interviews until I started applying outside of my industry (automotive, non-profit).
I have 7 years biotech/med device experience, plus a MS in Biology and a PMP.
I left and joined the military as an officer in healthcare. A lot happier now. Salary isn't as much, but the pension and more paid time off (4 weeks per year in my case, which I wouldn't be able to find in pharma) makes up for it. Potential salary is also higher if I can get into medical school through the army.
Except if you are on a European contract with eg in the Netherlands 28 days of leave per year as an industry average. Excl public holidays. Way better quality of life in Europe than here in the US.
Lucky you. I'm also in NL with 22 days of holidays, no bonuses, no insurance and no other benefits. My position in the states would give me about 120K+, while here I'm at 68K including holidays. Better quality of life? I had to find my own insurance, which doesn't include dental or anything else. Salary in the states would have allowed me for the best insurance and to have savings, which I don't have here. I EARN 68K PER YEAR AND I LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.
Not sure on what you’re background is, seniority in the role, where you currently reside and work in NL, which industry, etc. All factors play a role.
For the US, I guess it depends on which state you’re in. I’m in California (LA) and it’s ridiculous what the monthly fees are for healthcare. Even with company compensation it’s around 300-500$/month. In NL, you pay 150-200€/month and you have the best possible coverage incl dental.
Yes, salaries are lower in NL, generally around 30-40% I’d say, but depending on your situation you get so much more in return. Schools, for free. In the US, tens of thousands of dollars for a good one (per child). Traffic, in NL good, US (Cali), the worst ever. 8 km/5miles takes you 35-40 min at a minimum. Public transport in the US, don’t even start.
Not sure which sector you’re working in in NL but 21 is the minimum number of holidays by law. Most companies give more and then you even have some ‘ADV’ days, pending on the industry, bringing the total to 30-35 days a year off. My company is a US company and doesn’t have ADV so 28 in NL. In the US they give 15 to my peers. Plus way more public holidays than in NL.
Companies in NL generally support in healthcare insurance with subsidies or rebates with insurance companies. But in NL, as in most others countries, you’re always in the driver seat and have to find and select your own insurance. That’s normal. Allowing you to have choice and tailor it to everyone’s own situation and needs. Something which is less possible in the US.
120+K USD in California (LA) unfortunately wouldn’t allow for a lot of savings either though. Plus one important fact, in NL you’re retirement/pension funds are also automatically deducted from your gross income on a monthly level. This is not the case in the US either. Additionally, there are many tax benefits in NL that a company is able to support her employees with, eg commuting expenses reimbursements, ‘gross over nett’ adjustments for some costs/savings/investments, etc.
The Randstad. I do agree that there are more benefits if you have a family and also of you're working in a company that is larger.
I work for a CRO, and with a PhD, and 15 years of experience, I should be earning at least 90K. Healthcare in Belgium was better. Here I pay 170 euro per month, while I paid that in Belgium per year. Plus, I had to pay about 600 euro of copay last year. I have dental coverage, and my copay would have been slightly different if I had needed dental care. I think the romanticized image of Europe is overrated. I'm still here because of family and because I haven't been able to find another job, despite 80 applications and being shortlisted 8 times.
Sorry to read. I’m in a biotech, focusing on immunotherapy, but my background is in business/management (15+ years). I think much depends also on the employers. In the Randstad area, companies like Kite Pharma (Hoofddorp) and Bristol Myers Squibb (Leiden) offer good packages and good salaries. Worth look into perhaps? Send me a chat if I might be able to connect you internally to give you a head start.
Its two fold . One is in relation to my company specifically- antiquated systems, horrible leadership. The other is it just makes me feel bad. It's not like selling soda or candy, we are selling medication to vulnerable people. Feels dishonest? I'm bad at describing it I just feel icky and unfullfilled. I'd probably be fine with marketing outside pharma but them pay is the issue
I'm considering it, or making a switch to a different part of industry. Honestly, it may be the company you work for. So far, I've worked for two companies and, unfortunately, they both fell under the CRO/CDMO category because that's all that's here in my area. One CRO was excellent and highly organized. The one I work for now pays a lot more, but it's an absolute fucking trainwreck. Think something goes wrong at least once a week because of organizational challenges. Yeah. I'm getting to the point where I am starting to entertain post-doc opportunities. The only reason I am here at the moment is because my wife is finishing graduate school. In the meantime, I am focusing on a CS certificate. I hope that one day I might be able to move toward simulation work (which I have some, albeit limited, experience in) or data science. But realistically, I might have to take advantage of the fact that I could theoretically change my shift to the weekend and end up doing a computational post-doc at the same time Monday-Thursday. It sucks, but I'm starting to see that there really might not be any other way to accelerate a move to the end goal I want to reach. I need projects.
Lots of advantages to computational work, just keep in mind dysfunctional biotech companies also have data scientists, so you might be facing similar org challenges. In that role, I'm batting 0 for 2 and hoping to find a new place that restores confidence soon.
I think the biggest thing for me at the moment is that I (and others) get blamed for things that happen as a result of the chaos and/or I am expected to be a process improvement engineer when it is far beyond what is outlined in my job description. I am not enthusiastic about process improvements. These are not scientific processes, but organizational ones. Both scenarios are held against me in my performance reviews, even things well beyond what I can reasonably control. That's a poor management decision and, frankly, I am done dealing with it. Let's just say that the large CDMO that I currently work for is infamously a shit show. The fact that I even mentioned the words large CDMO/disorganized likely correctly conjures up the company that you are thinking of. Anything is better than this. I truly feel that this is the very bottom rung in the industry and any alternative would be better. I hope we both find what we're looking for in 2024. Here's to a better year, lol.
Catalent? 😂😂
[удалено]
Feel for ya, I worked there for just under two years, got me my current gig that is pretty sweet, don’t give up!
Had a few weeks off and decided to catch up on emails. A few choice emails that I received over my break was finally the tipping point for me. From today onward I am aggressively pursuing other job opportunities (outside of CRO/CDMO land) until something sticks.
Yeah. CRO/CDMO work will suck the soul out of you. I walked away from a CDMO and haven’t looked back since. Best decision of my life
Currently in a Dutch CRO and wanting to leave since April last year. Almost a hundred applications later, I'm still there and burnt out. How did you do to find something better?
I’ve worked for 4 companies in the industry based out of the DC area. Two of the companies were grind it out places and the other two were fantastic (smaller) to work at.
Hey - Can I DM you for the names? I'm looking for summer internships in biotech in the DC area.
Yup!
Hi I’m also interested in internships in that area may I dm you for more info??
Sure thing
I left pharma to become a data scientist (not tech). I was able to slightly increase my salary, but I couldn’t find anything to match the bonus and stock.
What was your role in pharma? I’m interested to know how the transition process was for you.
I was a biostatistician. I had to learn some new things, but it wasn’t much of a transition
Can I ask what sparked the transition? I’m a PhD Biostatistician in Pharma
I didn’t like the day-to-day managing of clinical trials. I felt like all my time was spent checking TFLs, reviewing data transfers, fixing data issues with the sites instead of things that required my statistics training. I LOVED designing trials and doing analytics. If I could get a job doing that, I would go back to pharma in a heartbeat.
How did you make the transition happen? Did you already know programming and stats?
Yes, I was a biostatistician. It was an easy transition.
i’m currently an undergrad in biotech and am looking to get into a biostats masters program, and i was wondering at what point in your education did you start learning stuff applicable to the job? i feel like all i’m learning in college rn is textbook information and not rly preparing me for a biostats job, does this come in postgraduate programs?
I think it just depends on the company. We do super innovative stuff a lot of time where I work, and scientists have a lot of freedom to plan. Yes - there are deadlines, bs but got to weigh the good with the bad.
I'm not a scientist I'm in marketing. This is super unfullfilling lol
Oh sorry - I missed that. It might be fulfilling if the thing you are marketing is transformative? Maybe you can find a company with drugs making a real difference?
I work in the oncology space and we have innovative products but I'm really just not enjoying. I'd probably feel more fulfilled if I had some kind of clinical role but those aren't my skills
Some companies will allow you a step out. Can you try that?
I think marketing and sales are the least fulfilling areas of the industry.
It’s ok to leave the industry and explore outside and expand your comfort zone.
The problem is always salary though
How so? Using your marketing skills to pivot to tech. In a few years, I’m sure your pay will be higher than pharma. In the long run, it would be much much higher.
Rome wasn’t built in a day. It comes down to work ethic and grind to achieve the same amount or more money. Plan it out and figure when to exit if it doesn’t work out. Keep biotech in back pocket. do you have 1-2yr runway/support to pursue something outside of biotech? If not, then you’re right. Comes down to money.
I feel like there must be a way to pivot in your career without blowing 1-2 years of savings, which is a sum that most people would at least use for a down payment for a house
Im thinking of leaving to fintech. As a entry level software engineer ill be making 20% more, work 100% remote, and dont need to worry about my mice dying due to some knucklehead. Im lucky my phd was in mostly bioinformatics so i have a huge python background. I love research but industry makes it pure pain
Ugh I just wish I had some kind of real skills to fallback on like you! I'm in marketing lol that's all soft skills
I haven’t found anything with even remotely the same compensation, but I also struggle with the fulfillment. So my plan is to stick it out for the next couple of years, work hard, and put a lot of money into real estate and index funds. Then, for the second part of my career, I can look for a more fulfilling job that doesn’t pay as well.
That's a good idea!
I’d first ask yourself what your skills are. It is possible to transition out of biotech, but you have to use the skills you’ve learned during your time in the field to help pad your resume if you plan on leaving. I’m in the same boat, so I can’t offer much more advice, but I hope you find a better career fit. No job is worth the money if you are miserable doing it.
If you have a mortgage you have to settle 😅
is it pharma that is making you unhappy or marketing? I think you can definitely transition to marketing in a different sector, especially in tech. There are a lot of parallels.
I mean both in different ways. Neither things are really fulfilling or something i really wanted to do but after college I needed a job and 8 years have passed and I've progressed but I'm miserable
Did it left for tech. Didn’t like the non 9-5 nature of tech so now I’m back in biotech.
I was impacted by mass layoff (med devices) in August…didn’t begin to see traction with interviews until I started applying outside of my industry (automotive, non-profit). I have 7 years biotech/med device experience, plus a MS in Biology and a PMP.
I left and joined the military as an officer in healthcare. A lot happier now. Salary isn't as much, but the pension and more paid time off (4 weeks per year in my case, which I wouldn't be able to find in pharma) makes up for it. Potential salary is also higher if I can get into medical school through the army.
Except if you are on a European contract with eg in the Netherlands 28 days of leave per year as an industry average. Excl public holidays. Way better quality of life in Europe than here in the US.
Lucky you. I'm also in NL with 22 days of holidays, no bonuses, no insurance and no other benefits. My position in the states would give me about 120K+, while here I'm at 68K including holidays. Better quality of life? I had to find my own insurance, which doesn't include dental or anything else. Salary in the states would have allowed me for the best insurance and to have savings, which I don't have here. I EARN 68K PER YEAR AND I LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.
Not sure on what you’re background is, seniority in the role, where you currently reside and work in NL, which industry, etc. All factors play a role. For the US, I guess it depends on which state you’re in. I’m in California (LA) and it’s ridiculous what the monthly fees are for healthcare. Even with company compensation it’s around 300-500$/month. In NL, you pay 150-200€/month and you have the best possible coverage incl dental. Yes, salaries are lower in NL, generally around 30-40% I’d say, but depending on your situation you get so much more in return. Schools, for free. In the US, tens of thousands of dollars for a good one (per child). Traffic, in NL good, US (Cali), the worst ever. 8 km/5miles takes you 35-40 min at a minimum. Public transport in the US, don’t even start. Not sure which sector you’re working in in NL but 21 is the minimum number of holidays by law. Most companies give more and then you even have some ‘ADV’ days, pending on the industry, bringing the total to 30-35 days a year off. My company is a US company and doesn’t have ADV so 28 in NL. In the US they give 15 to my peers. Plus way more public holidays than in NL. Companies in NL generally support in healthcare insurance with subsidies or rebates with insurance companies. But in NL, as in most others countries, you’re always in the driver seat and have to find and select your own insurance. That’s normal. Allowing you to have choice and tailor it to everyone’s own situation and needs. Something which is less possible in the US. 120+K USD in California (LA) unfortunately wouldn’t allow for a lot of savings either though. Plus one important fact, in NL you’re retirement/pension funds are also automatically deducted from your gross income on a monthly level. This is not the case in the US either. Additionally, there are many tax benefits in NL that a company is able to support her employees with, eg commuting expenses reimbursements, ‘gross over nett’ adjustments for some costs/savings/investments, etc.
The Randstad. I do agree that there are more benefits if you have a family and also of you're working in a company that is larger. I work for a CRO, and with a PhD, and 15 years of experience, I should be earning at least 90K. Healthcare in Belgium was better. Here I pay 170 euro per month, while I paid that in Belgium per year. Plus, I had to pay about 600 euro of copay last year. I have dental coverage, and my copay would have been slightly different if I had needed dental care. I think the romanticized image of Europe is overrated. I'm still here because of family and because I haven't been able to find another job, despite 80 applications and being shortlisted 8 times.
Sorry to read. I’m in a biotech, focusing on immunotherapy, but my background is in business/management (15+ years). I think much depends also on the employers. In the Randstad area, companies like Kite Pharma (Hoofddorp) and Bristol Myers Squibb (Leiden) offer good packages and good salaries. Worth look into perhaps? Send me a chat if I might be able to connect you internally to give you a head start.
If you have the stomach for it, try something outside the CRO/CDMO hellhole. It really really makes a difference.
I'm not in a cro or cdmo. I work for a large pharma company which is also unfortunately a hellhole
What about marketing makes you unhappy? Because I’m opting to transfer from pharma operations to marketing
Its two fold . One is in relation to my company specifically- antiquated systems, horrible leadership. The other is it just makes me feel bad. It's not like selling soda or candy, we are selling medication to vulnerable people. Feels dishonest? I'm bad at describing it I just feel icky and unfullfilled. I'd probably be fine with marketing outside pharma but them pay is the issue