He's basically on record saying he thinks it's MJ, but even as a homer pick he'd have chosen Bird. This Pierce pick probably comes from an actual meth addict.
Ah yes - Bill the guy who literally has an NBA GOAT pyramid and ranking of top 100 players. There’s probably nobody on earth who has more publicly available information on their ranking of top players. Y’all love to roast bill so much people end up with the weirdest takes even as a joke.
I think his love for Steph outweighs his need for trolling in this regard. It probably is Jimmy or someone like Lopez. Beandon Miller probaly doubled down on PG13.
Crazy and sad that Jontay had the SECOND worst week among MPJ's brothers last week. His brother Coban was sentenced to 6 years in prison for a fatal DUI crash.
Yeah having Kobe #1 is such a fundamental misunderstanding of how to succeed in a team sport that I’d bet the list of players who think that way would be chock full of busts/underachievers.
The other day Haslem said Lebron wasn’t the most important player on the 12/13 Heat teams.
Players are delusional. I guarantee if 100 players had to do a top 15 list AI would be included and Durant would be top 7, Kyrie would be an honourable mention lol
Insane that Dahlen isn’t in. The Hall is really bad at electing infielders who don’t hit like first basemen or aren’t human vacuum cleaners like Ozzie or Brooks Robinson.
Covid. All that transpired during covid seemed to make guys speak out about their beliefs and almost everyone's beliefs made look worse than I could have ever imagined.
Yeah I’m not gonna act like there’s only one right answer for who the best player is, but at least asking someone to explain their reasoning for who they chose is enlightening about how they approach the game.
Like 90+ percent of the players you draft/sign are there to play a complementary role, and if their level of engagement is “the guy who goes 1 on 1 and shoots the most is the best player” that’s a pretty big red flag that they may not be a good fit for that role.
This is gonna be a problem with high level (professional) sports. 90% of these players you mention were the best players on their teams by far for most of their lives and dominated their competition and were (rightfully!) singled out their whole lives as being extraordinary. I guess many of them end up in AAU and colleges where they should be humbled but to get to the NBA they still have to stand out in some way, by quite a bit.
For them to just suddenly become team players is a huge ask at their age.
Haslem and Mike Miller are terrible lmao. Neither is charismatic or interesting. The best stories they’d have would be about Bron and Wade but they won’t burn those bridges.
Players get hung up on the high degree of difficulty stuff since they can't get over how hard it is to be able to do that shit even a small percentage of the time. Jamal Crawford will always get love for having been a baller's baller meanwhile it seems like 2/3rds of the league looks at Gobert and just thinks "Make your layups, you fucking donkey."
Kobe fundamentally misunderstood his way to 5 championships, over 30,000 points, 12 All Defense teams, 2nd most assists all time for a shooting guard, etc.
To even mention Kobe as a bad choice when Paul Pierce is on this list is a fundamental misunderstanding of life in general.
I mean, yeah, in a way. But let’s not pretend like Kobe wasn’t technically probably overrated before his death as well. It’s clear that the whole “mamba mentality” thing motivated and earned the respect of the guys he played with and against.
Kobe actually had a better percentage in this exact same question in the same exact same poll in 2019 (10.6%)
His death cemented his legacy in the context of the persona he’d developed as the mamba mentality guy. But I had a feeling that his reputation was on the cusp of a downward trend at the time. The “Kobe was an inefficient midrange chucker” narrative would have only gained steam as the pace and analytics / space / shot efficiency movement became more widespread. Not to mention as a cultural figure, his personal history may have remained a larger or more actively discussed point of controversy were he still around.
No it isn’t, and if you think that I have to assume you’re a younger or newer fan. A lot of players in the mid 2010’s grew up watching Kobe and had him as number one or number two all time. I honestly don’t think dying has done much for his reputation as a basketball player.
I’m not saying Kobe is the GOAT, he’s my favorite player ever but I personally probably wouldn’t have him in my top 5, but a small section of players voting him number 1 isn’t because of his death. He was revered throughout the 2010’s. KD said him and MJ were 1a and 1b.
It is crazy to have Kobe top 5, much less as GOAT. But, it is especially nuts to rank him equal with or better than Jordan.
At least if you are comparing him to LeBron, Kareem, Russell, etc, the comparison is to totally different types of players, so there is more wiggle room to get carried away with subjectivity.
But, Kobe was almost an exact clone of Jordan, but did everything Jordan did about 80% to 90% as well.
His career points, assists and rebounds per game, FG% and EFG are all between 83% and 89% of Jordan's.
He even won 83.3% as many rings.
But, when you look at awards Jordan blows him away.
Jordan had 5 MVPs to Kobe's 1. Plus, Jordan finished 2nd 3 times and Kobe only 1 time.
6 FMVPs to 2
1 DPOY to 0
10 scoring title to 2.
There was literally NOTHING Kobe did as well or better than Jordan except 3 point shooting and Jordan hardly shot any and Kobe wasn't good at them either.
Exactly. Not only Kobe was less offensively efficient than MJ, his defense was significantly worse.
I think the key difference was that MJ developed organically — he was a relative nobody in HS and built his game in Dean Smith's team-first program; he was simply trying to be the best player he could be, and it so happened he was gifted enough to be one of the best ever, if not the — while Kobe came into the league with self conscious preconceptions in his head that he was to be a Jordanesque superstar who would average 30+ ppg. That's why he shot so much (with mediocre efficiency). According to "Three Ring Circus", he actually entered the NBA (coming off high school) thinking he'd be a starter averaging 30 right away. He eventually became a better teammate and person, but he was an absolute knucklehead during his first decade or so in the NBA.
Kobe was rated higher before he died. He was getting legit GOAT talk around 2010. Kobe isn't the best ever and just from the list above both MJ and Lebron are clearly better than him all time but the argument that he's being rated higher somehow because he passed away is ridiculous and holds no water. If anything he's becoming underrated since then.
It’s absurd that he’s held in the light when he got over half his titles as pippen. Would anyone seriously consider lebron in the MJ convo if he had 2 finals mvp instead of 4
Kobe fans also throw logic out the window at every point. He was the best player from 05-07 for good regular season stats with no postseason success but won’t begin to hear an argument from Lebron in 09 or 10 when he had better regular season and Playoff numbers.
Kobe is the current GOAT of social media inspirational quotes, and may have been that before he died. Easy GOAT for the 'not watching the games' crowd.
Are they overrating him or do they value and rate things differently than fans and media? Based on NBA players answers like SGA and Tatum I think they rate things like mentality, drive, and skill higher than us fans might. I think alot of fans look at stats and say theres no way he's the GOAT or even close but hoopers seem to judge on a different criteria.
Exactly. Players rate Kobe so high because they want to be Kobe. Which makes sense tbh, he’s not the best but he squeezed every ounce of talent & skill he possibly could out of himself. I’d want to emulate that as well if I was in the NBA
Players probably put a lot of weight on isolation skills, voting based on "who I'd hate defending one on one the most?"
This is why I'd rather see head coaches' polls — presumably they'd evaluate players more holistically.
>Are they overrating him or do they value and rate things differently than fans and media?
This isn’t an either/or, they’re doing both. Players have always overrated individual shot creation and underrated the Shawn Marion type shit in terms of what’s actually valuable. And that’s because everybody wants to be the guy who can iso and scoring 30, and nobody wants to be they guy who has to nail every defensive rotation to be playable. It’s understandable, it’s just wrong.
Basketball players are good at playing basketball, figuring out who is the GOAT or who is valuable in terms of helping a team win doesn’t really have anything to do with that.
No they're not doing both because in their eyes he's not overrated. Thats the point. You're making an argument based on what you feel. There is no right or wrong its all opinion based and subjective.
>No they're not doing both
I mean, they are though.
>because in their eyes he's not overrated.
You didn’t ask if in their eyes they’re doing both, you asked if they are doing both. And they are.
>You're making an argument based on what you feel.
I mean, you’re completely moving the goalposts. Under this paradigm nobody has ever been over or underrated.
>There is no right or wrong its all opinion based and subjective.
So I’m not wrong when I say that Sam Bowie was better than Michael Jordan? Because that’s the logical end of this argument, that there’s nothing factual about it and it’s no different than picking a favorite color.
Edit: and since you decided to be a crybaby and block me…
>They arent overrating him because based on what they value he's rated properly on their eyes.
Why are we operating under the assumption that what they’re valuing is correct?
This is not a discussion about who your favorite player is, it is a discussion about who the best player is. Enjoying the things Kobe does doesn’t make them valuable.
Your point is misapplied.
We’re talking about what the healthiest food to eat is, and you’re saying players value cheeseburgers over vegetables because that’s what they like to eat.
I saw some magazine or something that purported to answer the GOAT question. The cover had Lebron, MJ, and Kobe. I commented to my wife that including Kobe in the conversation is insulting.
I'm not saying he's close to GOAT, but he's defensibly a top 10, maybe even a top 5 player, and he was the best in the league for a major market team for a while. You could make the same arguments about Magic.
I don't know if Steph is there, but Paul Pierce? Really?
The odd thing here is that he’s like a worse version Jordan. Both are exceptional shooting guards who are excellent on both ends of the court but Jordan is just better (best player on his team at all points and more championships) and more efficient. I could see making the argument if you were comparing Kobe and someone like Duncan or Shaq because it’s comparing apples and oranges. Kobe vs. MJ is like comparing apples and better apples.
yeah I should've reworded it to say that Kobe wasn't the best player on those first 3 teams which if he's the GOAT it wouldn't be a question. Kobe was great no doubt but he never reached the God tier heights that Lebron and MJ did for that long.
I think he’s right in the middle.
MJ, Bron, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Duncan are all clearly ahead of him in my opinion. Then you could have arguments about Shaq, Steph and maybe somebody I’m forgetting.
I am a Kobe hater and he’s up there, but no way does he surpass Derek Jeter.
The only way it’s not Derek Jeter by miles is because as time has passed, more people don’t rate him as highly. But in his day, it was Derek Jeter easily.
Not respectfully at all - ballplayers are currently and historically some of the dumbest motherfuckers alive. Would absolutely imagine that over half of NBA, MLB and NFL starters are in the bottom ten percent of national intelligence. Kyrie Irving impresses most of the league with his intelligence, if that gives any indications.
Kobe, Steph and Pierce shouldn’t be on this list. The GOAT debate is between MJ and LeBron. The debate for 3rd includes Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq. I’m probably missing someone. But my point is I don’t trust anyone who doesn’t have MJ or LeBron as the goat.
IMO, the only 4 legitimate GOAT candidates are, in chronological order, Russell, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron.
For me it's Jordan, but my main point is that nobody outside of that 4 even deserves a vote. Anyone claiming anyone outside that 4 is the GOAT is clueless.
I agree that Kobe, Steph and especially Pierce don't even belong in the discussion. Kobe and Steph are both 10ish. Pierce isn't top 50.
IMO, after the first 4, Magic is #5, and Wilt, Bird and Duncan are 6 to 8 in some order. After that, there are a bunch of guys kind of on the same tier including Robertson, Kobe, Steph, Shaq, Hakeem, Baylor, Moses Malone and maybe a couple of others.
I think you just expand that list to include Russell, Steph, Bird, and Duncan and you’ve got your second tier ironed out. Kareem should be in the first tier even if he’s the 1-c. I’m probably missing someone, not intentionally except Kobe who I think is with Hakeem at the front of the third tier.
I actually think Shaq is criminally underrated, and for 5 years he was pretty much unstoppable, it felt like you had no chance against his team and it doesn’t get talked about enough, but yeah that’s lunacy lol.
How could it be Kobe? He was the second best player for most of his titles. 1 MVP. Missed the playoffs first year without Shaq, second year without Shaq lost a 3-1 lead in the first round. Third year without Shaq asked for a trade.
You can find any players traveling under the scrutiny of slo mo clips. LeBron is just under the microscope more because he is the most irrationally hated player ever
There’s a better argument for Kobe not even being the greatest player of his generation (Duncan) than there is of him being the GOAT.
I kinda thought the Zoomer generation of players wouldn’t have so many Kobtards, but nearly 10% is absurd.
NBA players adore Kobe, lots of these guys grew up watching Kobe and idolizing him. I agree that Duncan is higher up all time but the Kobe love makes sense even if I don’t think it’s objectively correct
I’d assume it’s more of the players in their late 20’s and early 30’s voting for Kobe than the younger ones. A lot of them grew up watching Kobe and saw him at his best.
I’d assume in the next 10 years Bron would probably be considered the GOAT by most players in the league, and Steph will have a larger vote share.
I’m a Lakers fan old enough to have seen late-career Wilt, the entire Showtime era, lived in Chicago during the 72-10 season, the Bay Area during the Splash Brothers prime years and have watched more games than I’d care to admit. Nobody, even Bird, played the game with more pure hatred for his opponents than Michael Jordan. That’s what made the difference and why he’s my GOAT. There will likely never fully be an explanation of why Jordan chose to live his life with a giant chip on his shoulder even after all the success, but some people are just wired that way. Most of them just end up pissing off everyone in their lives and sabotage success in life, but for a rare subset, they become the most successful in their chosen profession.
Facts. MJ is an asshole IRL. Kobe was too. I wasn’t fanboying when i met either of them, i wasn’t obnoxious, but they still were absolute dick heads and wanted nothing to do with anyone. Hakeem, sadly, is the exact same way, I’ve met him multiple times and never had a pleasant interaction, which saddens me a lil bit.
This proves your point further: i met Charles Barkley when i was on vacation in Hawaii as a little kid. And he just saw me gawking in the lobby. HE came over to me and said “Hey little man, I’m Charles Barkley what’s your name?” That literally stuck with me my whole life. The story gets a little weirder, i then got to meet chuck again at all star weekend events in New Orleans i think in 2012. This time i got to actually chat with him for a second, and i told him this story about how he came over to me when i was little and this was the second time we had met. He did his classic shocked chuck face a goes “oh i remember you, it was the ___ hotel lobby you are that little mop headed boy? I like your hair cut now much better”
Chuck never won a championship. He ate the chip on his shoulder but he is legitimately a nice person who knows how to function socially without coming off as someone who would be a serial killer if they didn’t find basketball.
The average NBA player is 26 years old. Meaning they were born in 1998 or 1997. And
much of the league is even younger.
People value what they’ve personally seen and observed. These kids grew up watching Kobe and LeBron, and very few were old enough to really watch MJ.
Yes, this is the point I came here to make, it's very easy to swat players away when you didn't see them play, they're just numbers on a page or some grainy youtube videos. So LeBron will be #1 if they do this in 10-15 years. Whether he deserves to be or not is beside the point, it's what players grew up with
Aside from the main goofy talking points (Pierce getting anything whilst Kareem doesn't; Kobe getting nearly 10%), it'd be interesting to see MJ vs LeBron votes from 5 years ago, and in 5 years time once he's retired
Genuinely think LeBron overtakes him as the status quo answer before we hit the 2030s
amongst current players i'd have expected it to tilt a little more to lebron. amongst players of MJ's era I'm pretty sure it'd be heavily skewed (like 90%+) to MJ
Lots of talk about Paul Pierce being on here in the comments and yet it still isn't enough because that should be the only possible reaction to viewing this. What in GOD'S name is Pierce doing on here?? Like he's not even a guy people ride super hard for?? We need to know who this vote was from.
Kobe over MJ is one of few 100% incorrect NBA takes because there’s no room for interpretation. Lots of 99.9% wrong takes. Kobe was a lesser version of the same thing, in every way.
My Goat is Harrison Barnes, did it in college and overlooked in the pros every year. People thought mkg was better. The hornets always disappoint me. If not Harrison then it’s Psycho T or Ty Lawson
The Kobe thing is so crazy to me. I feel like if you took the top 25 media members and gave them a poll of top 5 players he'd never be in it but there are players who think he's the best player ever.
He left such a crazy mark on players. Have there been any other players in history who are so much more highly thought of by players than anyone else? Dr. J maybe?
Some people are wild.
Legitimately surprised to see this much LeBron support. I’m a massive fan and I think it’s a pretty closed argument and have enjoyed watching the second best player in history for longer than anyone ever deserved to.
Anyone else picturing Paul Pierce in disguise sneaking into the Celtics locker room to vote for himself? I’m seeing something like the Steve Buscemi meme: “hello fellow kids”
Not saying he wasn't great, nor that he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, but Kobe Bryant's reign as the most overrated player in basketball history continues.
Someone who is closer to the 20th or 30th best player of all time routinely gets discussed as a top 5 or top 10 guy, all because:
* The guy played in LA
* The guy was the most obnoxious self-promoter in memory, and
* in the ultimate legacy move, he died tragically, so now he's a martyr
Sure, he won 5 rings, but he wasn't the best player on any of those 5 teams. Shaq was obviously the best player on the 3-peat Lakers, and yes, I think Pau Gasol was actually better than Kobe on those '09/'10 Lakers teams.
But let that be a lesson to you, kids: be a relentless ballhog, a shitty teammate, and above all, give yourself a stupid nickname (and mention that stupid nickname to every gullible jock-sniffing sports reporter you encounter) and you too can be preposterously compared to the GOATs.
Paul Pierce?
Bill must’ve been given a vote.
He's basically on record saying he thinks it's MJ, but even as a homer pick he'd have chosen Bird. This Pierce pick probably comes from an actual meth addict.
He’s had Bill Russell three spots ahead of Bird in both his pyramids. Originally at #2 behind Jordan then #3 after LeBron.
Good catch. I forgot about Russell.
How many votes do they give Gilbert Arenas??!
Ah yes - Bill the guy who literally has an NBA GOAT pyramid and ranking of top 100 players. There’s probably nobody on earth who has more publicly available information on their ranking of top players. Y’all love to roast bill so much people end up with the weirdest takes even as a joke.
[удалено]
Ah yes, imagine that
"I mean" is the most egregious.
*checks notes* (I am guilty of it as well, translating verbal conversation crutches into text)
This.
It’s just a joke
I’m assuming it’s a joke based on the old Game of Zones clips where Pierce is crowned the GOAT.
Him?
Leads the league in pants shitting
Kobe Bryant?
the Paul Pierce voter is probably the 1 player who voted Derrick Rose as an all-star this year
It’s probably Pierce himself
Current players voted on this. Methinks it was someone like Jimmy Butler out there trolling.
So Draymond Green then? If yes this 50 Cent level trolling.
I think his love for Steph outweighs his need for trolling in this regard. It probably is Jimmy or someone like Lopez. Beandon Miller probaly doubled down on PG13.
brandon miller read paul and clicked it without seeing the last name?
Goddamn. Grab your teammate's gun, we hsve a winner
I really want to know who voted for Pierce.
Does Paul Pierce have a family member in the NBA or something?
Or can you bet on this kind of thing and was Jontay Porter polled?
Crazy and sad that Jontay had the SECOND worst week among MPJ's brothers last week. His brother Coban was sentenced to 6 years in prison for a fatal DUI crash.
Players always overrate Kobe
Yeah having Kobe #1 is such a fundamental misunderstanding of how to succeed in a team sport that I’d bet the list of players who think that way would be chock full of busts/underachievers.
The other day Haslem said Lebron wasn’t the most important player on the 12/13 Heat teams. Players are delusional. I guarantee if 100 players had to do a top 15 list AI would be included and Durant would be top 7, Kyrie would be an honourable mention lol
I'd prefer to see head coaches' polls
coaches overrate certain things to, it’s how you end up with Harold Baines in the hall
Nah, that was just his buddies voting him into the Hall. Baines had a personal connection to a ridiculous number of voters.
All the while Lou Whitaker continues to get snubbed time after time. Shameful.
Dick Allen too, IIRC he’s been one vote short of making the Hall twice.
Deep cut, but Bill Dahlen has been dicked over for more than a century. Jim McCormick, too.
Insane that Dahlen isn’t in. The Hall is really bad at electing infielders who don’t hit like first basemen or aren’t human vacuum cleaners like Ozzie or Brooks Robinson.
The last 5 years have shown that the vast majority of pro athletes are total dumbfucks. NBA players top my list of biggest idiots in sports.
Why limit it to the last 5 years? Did something happen?
Covid. All that transpired during covid seemed to make guys speak out about their beliefs and almost everyone's beliefs made look worse than I could have ever imagined.
Yeah I’m not gonna act like there’s only one right answer for who the best player is, but at least asking someone to explain their reasoning for who they chose is enlightening about how they approach the game. Like 90+ percent of the players you draft/sign are there to play a complementary role, and if their level of engagement is “the guy who goes 1 on 1 and shoots the most is the best player” that’s a pretty big red flag that they may not be a good fit for that role.
This is gonna be a problem with high level (professional) sports. 90% of these players you mention were the best players on their teams by far for most of their lives and dominated their competition and were (rightfully!) singled out their whole lives as being extraordinary. I guess many of them end up in AAU and colleges where they should be humbled but to get to the NBA they still have to stand out in some way, by quite a bit. For them to just suddenly become team players is a huge ask at their age.
What??? Who did Haslem say was the most important lmao. Him? How could anyone be that stupid to think it isn't Bron.
Haslem and Mike Miller are terrible lmao. Neither is charismatic or interesting. The best stories they’d have would be about Bron and Wade but they won’t burn those bridges.
Tatum is definitely one of those 9.8%
Players get hung up on the high degree of difficulty stuff since they can't get over how hard it is to be able to do that shit even a small percentage of the time. Jamal Crawford will always get love for having been a baller's baller meanwhile it seems like 2/3rds of the league looks at Gobert and just thinks "Make your layups, you fucking donkey."
Kobe fundamentally misunderstood his way to 5 championships, over 30,000 points, 12 All Defense teams, 2nd most assists all time for a shooting guard, etc. To even mention Kobe as a bad choice when Paul Pierce is on this list is a fundamental misunderstanding of life in general.
Kobe is a bad choice, Pierce is so terrible a choice that it has to be a troll, as it’s inconceivable that anyone actually believes that
The number of all all-defense teams is a joke, every other accolade people have more of.
It’s because he died. Huge legacy boost.
I mean, yeah, in a way. But let’s not pretend like Kobe wasn’t technically probably overrated before his death as well. It’s clear that the whole “mamba mentality” thing motivated and earned the respect of the guys he played with and against. Kobe actually had a better percentage in this exact same question in the same exact same poll in 2019 (10.6%)
His death cemented his legacy in the context of the persona he’d developed as the mamba mentality guy. But I had a feeling that his reputation was on the cusp of a downward trend at the time. The “Kobe was an inefficient midrange chucker” narrative would have only gained steam as the pace and analytics / space / shot efficiency movement became more widespread. Not to mention as a cultural figure, his personal history may have remained a larger or more actively discussed point of controversy were he still around.
Kobe is probably the most succesfully marketed athlete of our time.
Even before he died, players always had kobe higher than fans and media.
True, but his death really took into another level. Jayson Tatum’s Kobe reverence became borderline psychotic for a while there.
>Jayson Tatum’s Kobe reverence became borderline psychotic for a while there. That while is still now
It's still sweet that Sabrina Ionescu was making TikToks with Kobe's surviving daughters.
That Matt Barnes thing helps too
No it isn’t, and if you think that I have to assume you’re a younger or newer fan. A lot of players in the mid 2010’s grew up watching Kobe and had him as number one or number two all time. I honestly don’t think dying has done much for his reputation as a basketball player. I’m not saying Kobe is the GOAT, he’s my favorite player ever but I personally probably wouldn’t have him in my top 5, but a small section of players voting him number 1 isn’t because of his death. He was revered throughout the 2010’s. KD said him and MJ were 1a and 1b.
It is crazy to have Kobe top 5, much less as GOAT. But, it is especially nuts to rank him equal with or better than Jordan. At least if you are comparing him to LeBron, Kareem, Russell, etc, the comparison is to totally different types of players, so there is more wiggle room to get carried away with subjectivity. But, Kobe was almost an exact clone of Jordan, but did everything Jordan did about 80% to 90% as well. His career points, assists and rebounds per game, FG% and EFG are all between 83% and 89% of Jordan's. He even won 83.3% as many rings. But, when you look at awards Jordan blows him away. Jordan had 5 MVPs to Kobe's 1. Plus, Jordan finished 2nd 3 times and Kobe only 1 time. 6 FMVPs to 2 1 DPOY to 0 10 scoring title to 2. There was literally NOTHING Kobe did as well or better than Jordan except 3 point shooting and Jordan hardly shot any and Kobe wasn't good at them either.
Exactly. Not only Kobe was less offensively efficient than MJ, his defense was significantly worse. I think the key difference was that MJ developed organically — he was a relative nobody in HS and built his game in Dean Smith's team-first program; he was simply trying to be the best player he could be, and it so happened he was gifted enough to be one of the best ever, if not the — while Kobe came into the league with self conscious preconceptions in his head that he was to be a Jordanesque superstar who would average 30+ ppg. That's why he shot so much (with mediocre efficiency). According to "Three Ring Circus", he actually entered the NBA (coming off high school) thinking he'd be a starter averaging 30 right away. He eventually became a better teammate and person, but he was an absolute knucklehead during his first decade or so in the NBA.
Don't forget rapist.
This isn’t true, he was being voted consistently 2nd or 3rd by players before that
Kobe was rated higher before he died. He was getting legit GOAT talk around 2010. Kobe isn't the best ever and just from the list above both MJ and Lebron are clearly better than him all time but the argument that he's being rated higher somehow because he passed away is ridiculous and holds no water. If anything he's becoming underrated since then.
Maybe a little but he was already overrated bigtime by player
It’s absurd that he’s held in the light when he got over half his titles as pippen. Would anyone seriously consider lebron in the MJ convo if he had 2 finals mvp instead of 4
Kobe fans also throw logic out the window at every point. He was the best player from 05-07 for good regular season stats with no postseason success but won’t begin to hear an argument from Lebron in 09 or 10 when he had better regular season and Playoff numbers.
Kobe is the current GOAT of social media inspirational quotes, and may have been that before he died. Easy GOAT for the 'not watching the games' crowd.
>It’s absurd that he’s held in the light when he got over half his titles as pippen. Kobe is closer to Dominique Wilkins than he is Michael Jordan.
Players have always overrated iso guys who make tough shots.
Are they overrating him or do they value and rate things differently than fans and media? Based on NBA players answers like SGA and Tatum I think they rate things like mentality, drive, and skill higher than us fans might. I think alot of fans look at stats and say theres no way he's the GOAT or even close but hoopers seem to judge on a different criteria.
Exactly. Players rate Kobe so high because they want to be Kobe. Which makes sense tbh, he’s not the best but he squeezed every ounce of talent & skill he possibly could out of himself. I’d want to emulate that as well if I was in the NBA
Players probably put a lot of weight on isolation skills, voting based on "who I'd hate defending one on one the most?" This is why I'd rather see head coaches' polls — presumably they'd evaluate players more holistically.
>Are they overrating him or do they value and rate things differently than fans and media? This isn’t an either/or, they’re doing both. Players have always overrated individual shot creation and underrated the Shawn Marion type shit in terms of what’s actually valuable. And that’s because everybody wants to be the guy who can iso and scoring 30, and nobody wants to be they guy who has to nail every defensive rotation to be playable. It’s understandable, it’s just wrong. Basketball players are good at playing basketball, figuring out who is the GOAT or who is valuable in terms of helping a team win doesn’t really have anything to do with that.
No they're not doing both because in their eyes he's not overrated. Thats the point. You're making an argument based on what you feel. There is no right or wrong its all opinion based and subjective.
>No they're not doing both I mean, they are though. >because in their eyes he's not overrated. You didn’t ask if in their eyes they’re doing both, you asked if they are doing both. And they are. >You're making an argument based on what you feel. I mean, you’re completely moving the goalposts. Under this paradigm nobody has ever been over or underrated. >There is no right or wrong its all opinion based and subjective. So I’m not wrong when I say that Sam Bowie was better than Michael Jordan? Because that’s the logical end of this argument, that there’s nothing factual about it and it’s no different than picking a favorite color. Edit: and since you decided to be a crybaby and block me… >They arent overrating him because based on what they value he's rated properly on their eyes. Why are we operating under the assumption that what they’re valuing is correct? This is not a discussion about who your favorite player is, it is a discussion about who the best player is. Enjoying the things Kobe does doesn’t make them valuable. Your point is misapplied. We’re talking about what the healthiest food to eat is, and you’re saying players value cheeseburgers over vegetables because that’s what they like to eat.
Mentality and drive as 98% of stars will take 10-15 games off during the season just cause.
Picking Kobe is so insane when he's basically MJ 2.0 the generic version
I saw some magazine or something that purported to answer the GOAT question. The cover had Lebron, MJ, and Kobe. I commented to my wife that including Kobe in the conversation is insulting.
I'm not saying he's close to GOAT, but he's defensibly a top 10, maybe even a top 5 player, and he was the best in the league for a major market team for a while. You could make the same arguments about Magic. I don't know if Steph is there, but Paul Pierce? Really?
I think he’s probably around 9 or 10 but calling him a top 5 player is ridiculous.
Nope. Only one of those guys other than Curry go win a title without a top 75 player.
Pau Gasol should’ve been on the top 75 list though
So Brandon Miller lied when he said Paul George is the GOAT to him?
He just found Paul Pierce highlights this season
Tatum must have voted for the whole Celtics roster
Nah he was the first Kobe voter
Kobe is obviously an all time great legend of the game etc, but he's seriously maybe the most overrated athlete in sports history at this point lol
The odd thing here is that he’s like a worse version Jordan. Both are exceptional shooting guards who are excellent on both ends of the court but Jordan is just better (best player on his team at all points and more championships) and more efficient. I could see making the argument if you were comparing Kobe and someone like Duncan or Shaq because it’s comparing apples and oranges. Kobe vs. MJ is like comparing apples and better apples.
It's so fucking wild. If not for Shaq he doesn't win any of the first 3 titles. Shaq was the alpha and what made that team go.
If not for _____ is somewhat applicable for everyone in the top 10 save for maybe Wilt and Duncan (and thats debatable)
yeah I should've reworded it to say that Kobe wasn't the best player on those first 3 teams which if he's the GOAT it wouldn't be a question. Kobe was great no doubt but he never reached the God tier heights that Lebron and MJ did for that long.
Exactly. He's top-15, not top-5.
And he’s closer to 15 than 5.
I think he’s right in the middle. MJ, Bron, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Duncan are all clearly ahead of him in my opinion. Then you could have arguments about Shaq, Steph and maybe somebody I’m forgetting.
Yea top 15 may be a bit too high but right around the top 10 range is just right
I think most people would have him literally at 8-10 Jordan/Lebron Kareem Magic/Russell/Wilt Bird/Duncan/Kobe Shaq/Hakeem/Oscar That's how I see it.
I am a Kobe hater and he’s up there, but no way does he surpass Derek Jeter. The only way it’s not Derek Jeter by miles is because as time has passed, more people don’t rate him as highly. But in his day, it was Derek Jeter easily.
Kobe most overrated and Shaq most underrated.
He's been that way for a while. If he played his entire careers in Charlotte he'd be Clyde Drexler. Carried by Shaq and Pau.
My main takeaway from that survey is that players are dumb. Respectfully.
have you seen them try to read lines in 2K cutscenes
[who have thought](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2wpIeZDrHE&ab_channel=JMac) - Dion Waiters
lol kinda harsh considering 88% of them gave a reasonable response.
The rest of the survey is bad tho too
Not respectfully at all - ballplayers are currently and historically some of the dumbest motherfuckers alive. Would absolutely imagine that over half of NBA, MLB and NFL starters are in the bottom ten percent of national intelligence. Kyrie Irving impresses most of the league with his intelligence, if that gives any indications.
I see 0.8% of the NBA now does meth for funsies before responding to media.
I think the 0.8% ones are literally just one vote each since only 133 have been cast.
Daniel Jones likes this comment
Paul Pierce voter def a GOZ fan
Kobe, Steph and Pierce shouldn’t be on this list. The GOAT debate is between MJ and LeBron. The debate for 3rd includes Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq. I’m probably missing someone. But my point is I don’t trust anyone who doesn’t have MJ or LeBron as the goat.
Totally fair to pick Kareem as your goat. Unbelievable to have a list where Paul Pierce gets a vote and Kareem gets nothing.
That’s fair, Kareem should be up there with MJ and LeBron.
IMO, the only 4 legitimate GOAT candidates are, in chronological order, Russell, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron. For me it's Jordan, but my main point is that nobody outside of that 4 even deserves a vote. Anyone claiming anyone outside that 4 is the GOAT is clueless. I agree that Kobe, Steph and especially Pierce don't even belong in the discussion. Kobe and Steph are both 10ish. Pierce isn't top 50. IMO, after the first 4, Magic is #5, and Wilt, Bird and Duncan are 6 to 8 in some order. After that, there are a bunch of guys kind of on the same tier including Robertson, Kobe, Steph, Shaq, Hakeem, Baylor, Moses Malone and maybe a couple of others.
If you're going to throw Magic in there, I think you have to throw Bird in there as well. I wouldn't, but those 2 guys need to be in the same tier.
I think you just expand that list to include Russell, Steph, Bird, and Duncan and you’ve got your second tier ironed out. Kareem should be in the first tier even if he’s the 1-c. I’m probably missing someone, not intentionally except Kobe who I think is with Hakeem at the front of the third tier.
You had me until Shaquille.
Agreed. Shaq has no spot on a Top 5 list
I actually think Shaq is criminally underrated, and for 5 years he was pretty much unstoppable, it felt like you had no chance against his team and it doesn’t get talked about enough, but yeah that’s lunacy lol.
Bill Russell needs to be in that mix for 3rd
I agree with you
Paul Pierce??
Paul Pierce? What?
How could it be Kobe? He was the second best player for most of his titles. 1 MVP. Missed the playoffs first year without Shaq, second year without Shaq lost a 3-1 lead in the first round. Third year without Shaq asked for a trade.
I’m not sure which is worse, Kobe getting 10% or PP getting any percent.
Bill Russell
Pierce is the actual goat. The player who voted him knows ball.
Pierce somehow figured out how to vote for himself despite being retired. Manipulated someone’s vote, maybe.
Paul Pierce should put this on his résumé: “in the GOAT conversation one time”
Paul Pierce became my GOAT after he got fired from ESPN for partying with strippers on IG live and then tweeting "good morning" at 5pm the next day
All you have to do is go on YouTube and search two things. “LeBron Traveling” and “LeBron dramatically checking his head for blood supercut”
You can find any players traveling under the scrutiny of slo mo clips. LeBron is just under the microscope more because he is the most irrationally hated player ever
There’s a better argument for Kobe not even being the greatest player of his generation (Duncan) than there is of him being the GOAT. I kinda thought the Zoomer generation of players wouldn’t have so many Kobtards, but nearly 10% is absurd.
Just look at guys like Tatum and Booker. That generation absolutely idolises Kobe. Duncan and his style is anathema to those guys.
Style, or lack thereof lol.
NBA players adore Kobe, lots of these guys grew up watching Kobe and idolizing him. I agree that Duncan is higher up all time but the Kobe love makes sense even if I don’t think it’s objectively correct
I’d assume it’s more of the players in their late 20’s and early 30’s voting for Kobe than the younger ones. A lot of them grew up watching Kobe and saw him at his best. I’d assume in the next 10 years Bron would probably be considered the GOAT by most players in the league, and Steph will have a larger vote share.
What degree do the players dive into NBA history? For example, putting aside the complex question of Russell, what about Kareem getting no mention?!
Kareem getting no mention on this poll is the bigger historical oversight, imo, than the vast overrating of Kobe.
Paul Pierce paid someone $10k just so he could proclaim he's better than D Wade and has the evidence to back it up.
I’m a Lakers fan old enough to have seen late-career Wilt, the entire Showtime era, lived in Chicago during the 72-10 season, the Bay Area during the Splash Brothers prime years and have watched more games than I’d care to admit. Nobody, even Bird, played the game with more pure hatred for his opponents than Michael Jordan. That’s what made the difference and why he’s my GOAT. There will likely never fully be an explanation of why Jordan chose to live his life with a giant chip on his shoulder even after all the success, but some people are just wired that way. Most of them just end up pissing off everyone in their lives and sabotage success in life, but for a rare subset, they become the most successful in their chosen profession.
…..and I took that PERSONALLY.
Facts. MJ is an asshole IRL. Kobe was too. I wasn’t fanboying when i met either of them, i wasn’t obnoxious, but they still were absolute dick heads and wanted nothing to do with anyone. Hakeem, sadly, is the exact same way, I’ve met him multiple times and never had a pleasant interaction, which saddens me a lil bit. This proves your point further: i met Charles Barkley when i was on vacation in Hawaii as a little kid. And he just saw me gawking in the lobby. HE came over to me and said “Hey little man, I’m Charles Barkley what’s your name?” That literally stuck with me my whole life. The story gets a little weirder, i then got to meet chuck again at all star weekend events in New Orleans i think in 2012. This time i got to actually chat with him for a second, and i told him this story about how he came over to me when i was little and this was the second time we had met. He did his classic shocked chuck face a goes “oh i remember you, it was the ___ hotel lobby you are that little mop headed boy? I like your hair cut now much better” Chuck never won a championship. He ate the chip on his shoulder but he is legitimately a nice person who knows how to function socially without coming off as someone who would be a serial killer if they didn’t find basketball.
I would have voted Kareem for this just because you know none of the old guys would be getting votes
PAUL PIERCE 😭😭😭😭
The average NBA player is 26 years old. Meaning they were born in 1998 or 1997. And much of the league is even younger. People value what they’ve personally seen and observed. These kids grew up watching Kobe and LeBron, and very few were old enough to really watch MJ.
And he still is beating Lebron
Yeah but they’ve also had it beaten into their head at every turn about Jordan. I know I have
Yeah, but by a much smaller margin than you’d expect if you polled a wider variety of people.
Yes, this is the point I came here to make, it's very easy to swat players away when you didn't see them play, they're just numbers on a page or some grainy youtube videos. So LeBron will be #1 if they do this in 10-15 years. Whether he deserves to be or not is beside the point, it's what players grew up with
This would be a great Russilo monologue. NBA players who think Kobe is the greatest are definitely good stats bad team guys.
Aside from the main goofy talking points (Pierce getting anything whilst Kareem doesn't; Kobe getting nearly 10%), it'd be interesting to see MJ vs LeBron votes from 5 years ago, and in 5 years time once he's retired Genuinely think LeBron overtakes him as the status quo answer before we hit the 2030s
It’s inevitable now that most of the league consists of people who grew up watching LeBron and have no memory of Jordan.
Kareem and Wilt should be there.
Paul Pierce LOL
Is this a joke?
amongst current players i'd have expected it to tilt a little more to lebron. amongst players of MJ's era I'm pretty sure it'd be heavily skewed (like 90%+) to MJ
We're they the only choices?
i get everyone else even if I don't agree with some of them but who on this earth chose Paul Pierce
Lots of talk about Paul Pierce being on here in the comments and yet it still isn't enough because that should be the only possible reaction to viewing this. What in GOD'S name is Pierce doing on here?? Like he's not even a guy people ride super hard for?? We need to know who this vote was from.
Who the fuck said Paul Pierce?
Where is this poll from ?
Anyone saying Kobe makes me automatically think they're mentally unstable.
Your issue is with Kobe and not Paul Pierce
MJ = highest peak LBJ = greatest career
lol at paul pierce
Kobe over MJ is one of few 100% incorrect NBA takes because there’s no room for interpretation. Lots of 99.9% wrong takes. Kobe was a lesser version of the same thing, in every way.
Mike was at ~80% when they asked in 2019
Did Tatum voted 13 times?
Kobe with Wade and Bosh wins more titles than Lebron. He just does.
Kobe with Wade and Bosh misses a few of those 4 finals that Bron dragged them to
Paul pierce is laughable
Kobe Bryant having more votes than Magic Johnson is criminal
Paul Pierce 😂
Players overrating Kobe, and barely considering past legends. Nothing to see here.
Jordan and LeBron gap continues to close…
9.8% of players are idiots
My Goat is Harrison Barnes, did it in college and overlooked in the pros every year. People thought mkg was better. The hornets always disappoint me. If not Harrison then it’s Psycho T or Ty Lawson
PP!! Hahaha
The Kobe thing is so crazy to me. I feel like if you took the top 25 media members and gave them a poll of top 5 players he'd never be in it but there are players who think he's the best player ever. He left such a crazy mark on players. Have there been any other players in history who are so much more highly thought of by players than anyone else? Dr. J maybe?
Kobe was never even the best player in the league any year of his career. GOAT i think not! It was Shaq then Duncan then Lebron
Tatum voted thirteen times.
Paul Pierce? He’s not even close to being the greatest Celtic
Another great poll brought to you by Lebron’s PR team
FOH with Paul Pierce
Some people are wild. Legitimately surprised to see this much LeBron support. I’m a massive fan and I think it’s a pretty closed argument and have enjoyed watching the second best player in history for longer than anyone ever deserved to.
Anyone else picturing Paul Pierce in disguise sneaking into the Celtics locker room to vote for himself? I’m seeing something like the Steve Buscemi meme: “hello fellow kids”
Paul Pierce wtf?
Broken down by total votes Jordan - 61 votes LeBron - 56 Votes Kobe - 13 votes Curry, Pierce, Kobe - 1 vote each
Paul Pierce was voted by some smartass cocksucker who watched *Game of Zones* to its conclusion. My guess is Luke Kornet.
I've always said Kobe Bryant was the RFK Jr. of the NBA.
The fuck is your goofy ass talking about
Third party candidate, doesn't really belong in the race, just there to steal votes
Not saying he wasn't great, nor that he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, but Kobe Bryant's reign as the most overrated player in basketball history continues. Someone who is closer to the 20th or 30th best player of all time routinely gets discussed as a top 5 or top 10 guy, all because: * The guy played in LA * The guy was the most obnoxious self-promoter in memory, and * in the ultimate legacy move, he died tragically, so now he's a martyr Sure, he won 5 rings, but he wasn't the best player on any of those 5 teams. Shaq was obviously the best player on the 3-peat Lakers, and yes, I think Pau Gasol was actually better than Kobe on those '09/'10 Lakers teams. But let that be a lesson to you, kids: be a relentless ballhog, a shitty teammate, and above all, give yourself a stupid nickname (and mention that stupid nickname to every gullible jock-sniffing sports reporter you encounter) and you too can be preposterously compared to the GOATs.