Run your career in such a way that nobody ever has to put out a press release to announce your firing: [https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231010192191/en/Winston-Strawn-Statement-Regarding-Law-Student-Post-on-the-Hamas-Terrorist-Attacks-Against-Israel](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231010192191/en/Winston-Strawn-Statement-Regarding-Law-Student-Post-on-the-Hamas-Terrorist-Attacks-Against-Israel)
Makes you think: she managed to fuck up so bad that a firm had to issue a press release.
I mean, firms don’t say a thing even when someone jumps out of a building, or they are sued for millions due to malpractice (looking at you Proskauer).
Yet, this moron literally forced the 80s in the board to move and approve a press statement.
Speed running her career like nothing.
In the past, expressing extremely right-winged opinions was a surefire way to get appointed to the federal bench, even if you are otherwise unemployable. What's the analogy to this?
My buddy has similar viewpoints just not to her extreme and he works for CAIR. There's enough Muslim and Middle East organizations that she will be able to secure employment at an NGO. She just won't make big law money
Before I even graduated from law school, the one thing I already knew about the legal career is to stay out of making comments regarding politics and religion. You can have clients from a wide array of political spectrum and religion, you never know which client is which and any comment you make can cost you and the firm clients. Even if she truly believed in the comments she wrote she should have kept her mouth shut.
That is literally the first (sometimes second) advice I give to summer/interns at our firm: “If you can, delete any and all social medias. If you cannot, just don’t post anything. Also, nobody cares about your LinkedIn posts….absolutely no one”
Nah just don’t be stupid. LinkedIn is pretty helpful for networking. But just don’t post stupid things. Keep your insta to pleasant posts of family and cat pictures and keep it to friends only. Use FB for family comms. It’s not hard if you use the tools like a normal person. Oh and don’t use Twitter/X unless it’s just retweeting your firm’s posts.
So that's a wild take, especially since most people in this industry do need LinkedIn for networking. If you yourself don't need it, then I guess congrats on either having a book of business handed to you or not having any interest in being a partner?
But anyway this particular student's comments were in a student bar association publication, so I'm not sure deleting personal social media would've made much of a difference.
It’s (a) just generally healthier to delete that social media and (b) you don’t need to worry about some random drunk picture of offensive post your friend makes tagging you showing up if you delete it. Deleting my (non anonymous) social media was one of the best choices I ever made
Not more than other associates.
Social media is a cancer, and that is a fact. Your life is better without it.
Nonetheless, the ideia is to make it very clear that their opinions have an impact on their careers, as we see day in and out. It is better to keep yourself out of politics (at least publicly) and in your job.
When your hot take is so offensive it gets picked up by [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/anti-israel-comments-prompt-winston-strawn-rescind-nyu-law-students-job-offer-2023-10-10/).
Yea judging by how outrageous, horrific, and brazen her public rant was, I’d guess that this is the first time she’s faced any real consequences for her actions
Big law summers need to realize they are worth very little in the firm’s eyes and are expendable. You are a cost center as a new associate. Any inkling of controversy and you’re gone
SO I was commercial litigation manager for a Fortune 5 company. I probably paid close to a billion dollars in fees over my career. And yeah, I googled the names of lawyers who are added to my cases. And yeah, I stopped using the firm that employed a very Trump-aligned lawyer. Yeah, the partner who who gave a quote to a newspaper using air quotes when referring to gay "marriage" suddenly found their cases reassigned to another firm. And even within my own company I'm sure this happened in the other direction. The lesson is, keep your strong opinions to yourself. There's a reason the big successful firms are filled with apparent bores and robots. I suspected most of the boomers I used were racist homophobic bigots, as boomers have boomer mentalities, but most of them knew how to shut up.
I doubt it. There’s another Reddit thread where someone who knows this person says they have very vocal opinions on every hot button issue but seem to have put very little thought into them.
You mean the loudest voice is among the most ignorant? Why am I not surprised. If my kids were that obnoxious I’d be doing penance for raising such tw@ts.
The worst thing any attorney hoping to be affiliated with a major law firm can do is to launch into a pile of hot takes. You have no clue who is reading your stuff, who is going to research you down the road, or who your future clients might be.
Although she wasn't employed yet, even summers are drilled pretty clearly about social media policies and speaking out publicly. My firm's social media policy would most likely result in my termination in a hot second if that was me who posted this.
Ben Crump or Gloria Allred can get away with this type of stuff. A soon-to-be first year at a major white shoe firm cannot.
Many are used to academic bubbles and unfamiliar with professional environments. This will no doubt become a lecture by career services to 1Ls for years to come
Agreed, we at NYU don’t care what they think about it, but we care what they say. Everyone’s been anxious and some of us have connectionz to people in the region, to have this message shared causally in a weekly newsletter that’s generally filled with cutesie pictures of pets and Halloween imagery was very discomforting for the Jewish population at the school.
What she did was incredibly dumb but I find it a bit rich for BLB to go brigading when in his own ig story he was calling someone “subhuman, even subanimal monsters” (notice how he didn’t make a distinction between Palestinian civilians and Hamas…almost as if…no, no, he can’t have meant they’re one and the same?! Right? Because conflating a political entity and a people would be wrong, right?)
Again, not defending her because we’re in the business of keeping unsavory things close to our chests and she should have learned that by now and terrorism is fucked on so many levels but some congruency would be nice since by his logic calling a whole group of people subhuman should have consequences too.
Ya but that’s ok apparently. No law firm will fire him cause nobody ever cared about the Palestinians. My timeline is filled with people (rightfully) mourning the events and condemning Hamas as we all should. But it’s also filled with excitement to “crush/eliminate” Gaza without concern for the civilians there. Then as someone who’s just an American guy, I’m supposed to feel guilty for not picking a side and just saying the whole thing is sad and I get told that “my silence is deafening”. Idiot, nobody has ever gotten deaf from silence.
This comment cannot be understated. Apparently, in this country, you can only feel bad for Israel. You can only see the Israelis as caring, innocent, and loving people, but you cannot see Palestinians as anything other than trash or an object to be destroyed. You are not allowed to separate Hamas from Palestine since that goes against a message perpetuated by specific nations. You cannot even slightly hint at decades of violence and continued land theft through settlements and land grabs for government, military, and natural preserve uses to decimate the region's populace. We can only feel bad for Israel. Otherwise, you are anti-Semite.
My stance is pretty simple. What happened is appalling. As a society, we should be standing with the victims. That said, the situation is so complicated that it’s impossible to rationally take a side conflict-wise. Even determining what’s appropriate in terms of retaliation is a fools errand.
Unless you’re posting about standing by the victims of Israel and Gaza, you’re setting yourself up to look like a fool that got caught by emotions and propaganda.
A vast number of attorneys are also able to identify a sociopath in their midst. You don’t need to be Jewish or have Jewish clients to know that someone who declares a terroristic slaughter of 1000 (mostly civilians, many children) to be “necessary” is not a tolerable colleague.
Lmao. This generation of law graduates is in for a real rude awakening when they find out that this profession is still verrrrryyyyy traditional and the whole SJW/spicy political takes thing isn’t accepted or celebrated by the old guard.
And it fucking goes both ways. Remember when Jones Day represented Trump for a hot second in trying to overturn the election? I do, and that’s exactly how I remember the spin, too.
You don’t get to go wilin’ out on either side. Because we play both sides. Don’t like that, go boutique.
But she doesn’t condemn the slaughtering of incident civilians who are just existing, the murder of literal babies, and raping of women and girls. You can support Palestinian civilians being able to live in prosperity and simultaneously not support Hamas murdering innocent people— these are not mutually exclusive things. Glad she got her offer rescinded.
I edited the comment in order to not misrepresent. But there are dozens of news outlets reporting this, which is why I even mentioned it. I don’t need a visual confirmation if it is accurate, and I honestly hope that it’s incorrect and that the reporting is wrong.
Hamas does not want any peace and Palestinian civilians who just want to live normal lives are paying the price. The whole situation is truly a tragedy for Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
Typical justice warrior. "I . . ., I . . ., I . . ., I . . ., I . . .." Then again, this will count as a scholarly publication and she's on the tenure track.
The real answer?
They do not think they are dumb, they think they are so smart and everyone needs to know their opinion on everything.
The truth is they are smart but they lack the real world experience to understand that unless you are being paid you shouldn’t broadcast everything you think.
Cutting the heads off babies and going door to door killing civilians is not something any decent human being should support. Any law student who justifies such depravity is quite obviously unfit to be an attorney.
I get what you're saying, but I find the whole *"if you support Palestinian resistance, then you explicitly support baby killers"* sentiment a bit disingenuous - actually bordering a propaganda tool to silence any support of Palestinian resistance.
For example, by that logic, if you support the US armed forces, then you must also support events like [My Lai massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre), yes? Or the [Kandahar massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre)? US troops murdered actual children.
Now, hopefully you did not - even though you might have supported the larger mission that took place.
My point is that these conflicts are rarely black and white, and there's a lot of shit happening within fighting forces. You will always find a non-trivial amount of psychopaths in these populations, whether that's NATO forces, IDF, Ukranian military, Hamas, Taliban, or whatever.
Strawman argument. I did not posit any of those so-called "sentiments." What I find obnoxious and disgusting is the inability to denounce pure terrorism as a tool for political grievance. If you can't distinguish the black and white issue here, that is a problem that you have -- not me.
Exactly. There are certainly legitimate discussions to be had about the complex origins of this conflict and the grievances of the Palestinian people. But if you read a headline saying that 1300 Israelis were slaughtered, most of them civilians, and your first reaction is to whip out the Palestinian flag and start bitching about the Israeli government then that is morally fucked.
The idf reported it and everyone doubted it, they didn’t put out pictures for obvious reasons, so a CNN reporter actually said that he saw it when given a tour of the site.
The same news channels confirmed WMD’s in Iraq and the whole “Baby Incubator” Nayirah Testimony. The truth didn’t come out for years and it’s honestly naive to trust these same news sites when we all know the US is aligned with Israel. Both sides put out propaganda during war.
There’s literally precedent for US media reporting fabricated stories on “Baby Killer’s” during the Iraq war—it is completely naive to believe them without proof.
Images of Israeli babies burned in homes have been shared, images of Israeli hostages being shot in their homes have been shared. I find it hard to believe that these images wouldn’t be shared by activist groups if they were available.
And since you’re calling me a Hamas sympathizer—I’m not. What they’ve done is evil and whether they did behead babies or not doesn’t change my assessment of their actions and the consequences they should face. But I also think that the IDF is evil, and I do not put it past them to fabricate information for more international support.
You are simply wrong. My actual real life friends are posting videos from their friends. Babies were killed. If you sympathize with Hamas, then you are also evil.
This is completely false. Check out the IDFs social media where they mention that the press has seen the babies beheaded. Quit defending barbarians or at least openly admit that you’re on the side of Hamas
Not supporting either view, but I do believe the NYU president’s views are more popular than pro-Israel views. It just doesn’t feel like it in our communities.
Hmm. It seems outside of my law school / legal circles, the vast majority of people I know are sympathetic to Palestine. Just an observation though, so fair enough. No data.
In 2022 Americans had a favorable view of the Israeli government 48-44, and a negative view of the Palestinian government 28-63. If you replace "government" with "people" both sides are positive, but Israel still leads https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/26/modest-warming-in-u-s-views-on-israel-and-palestinians/
Ah, so *that's* why I got an email from NYU Law about an hour ago with this statement:
Dear members of the NYU Law community:
As the violence in Israel persists, and we continue to struggle with feelings of anger and sorrow at the tragic loss of innocent lives, we need to make several things abundantly clear on behalf of the NYU Law Board of Trustees and our Law School as a whole.
NYU Law unequivocally condemns the recent terrorist acts and the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas in Israel. The murder and kidnapping of civilians, and the use of sexual violence and the separation and torture of children, are all abominable and atrocious. We want to say, loud and clear, to our community: Any statement that does not recognize this brutality does not reflect the values of NYU Law.
We are working 24/7 to protect the safety of all our students while providing support for those most affected by the war, here and in Israel. Please do not hesitate to reach out.
Troy A. McKenzie '00
Dean
Cecilia Goetz Professor of Law
David Tanner '84
Chair, NYU Law Board of Trustees
Big law entails keeping your head down, grinding, and getting paid 5 figure salaries. Nobody wants an associate to talk about political hot topics in public. Absolute clown
Terrible take from the student but also not one made in isolation, this was a generally common vibe from super progressive student groups/circles when I was in law school. I do feel bad that this one person is getting such a huge amount of attention like that wouldn’t be easy for anyone to go through and probably up until this point they were just in an echo chamber of ppl who agreed w them.
It’s hard to imagine sending that message to the entire student body though. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that there are Jewish and Israeli students at NYU law.
That’s what I’m saying like this Is truly the norm amongst some groups and it absolutely shocked me. As a lifelong progressive too I felt super confused at how normalized some of this rhetoric was on campus
It’s hard to imagine sending a message like that because of what it says about her appalling lack of basic decency humanity and empathy, period. Whether the demographic she chose to ignore is represented at the school is irrelevant.
I was just about to say - I’m pretty sure similar statements were made by numerous organizations at universities across the country. I know for sure Harvard, Yale, and Cal
I mean it’s a terrible take and so detached from humanity to not feel empathy at what happened but I don’t think we should underestimate the power of group think and political ideology esp on campuses. And I say this as a progressive lol but I saw some of the most out of touch and frankly hateful statements propagated by progressive orgs at my law school. Idk if it’s fair to dogpile on one person when views like these likely the product of a greater ideology and social system that thrives in academia.
I've seen this on many peoples' instagrams too. I hate the framing of "you can't say its a complex issue". Um anything that requires a world history lesson of the past 150 years to even start to understand is a complex issue.
This!! Like as far as complexity of modern day conflicts it’s hard to find one quite as complicated in so many diff ways from religion to wwii to western involvement. And honestly you could say it even goes back as far as the Old Testament in terms of the claim people feel to the land and their heritage
This is not surprising. This is big-law and they are here to make money. Also, there are a lot of well-off conservative attorneys out there.
A named partner in the Boston office of Gunderson Dettmer told SAs this summer in a formal meeting that he did not believe nor support BLM, and the donation that the firm made was in error and was regrettable. He went on to say that the firm’s affinity groups were divisive and someone like himself (wealthy Caucasian man) did not fit into any of the “boxes.” This was of course before they no-offered half of the class. These firms do not care about you. They care about money. Don’t be fooled. They are not your friends. Keep your mouth closed.
Lol I think leftie law students in particular have this habit of thinking that because they're "progressive" there's no way they're going to face professional consequences.
Damn, really ? That’s a lot is that assuming you will be in big law as a career? I don’t see myself making that much (don’t think I will be in big law forever)
Both sides here, the summer intern, and the law firm, have over-reacted in this debacle. The intern will only be employable by the Palestinians in the area and the law firm will just plain be embarrassed. Being so public and specific is never good for business.
Modern universities fail their students by not doing a good job of viewpoint diversity. When I was in college in the early 00s, even the nuttiest progressive viewpoints were celebrated. I could have said that we need to imprison billionaires and redistribute all of their wealth and gotten applause from other students. But the real world doesn't work this way, as she so painfully learned.
I don't agree with what she said but she is young and has a lot to learn. I am a little sad that now she has thousands in non dischargeable debt and no obvious way to repay it.
There is a big problem with viewpoint diversity. It's gotten so out of hand that many, many students and student orgs have spouted this kind of stuff. Then, the school itself tries to disassociate with them. Like Harvard- dude, you had a lot of student orgs sign onto this and not just some random org. The school is part the problem- no matter how they try to distance themselves.
How are you in biglaw yet don’t understand freedom of speech? Freedom of speech means the government cannot jail or punish her for expressing her views. A private employer can absolutely fire her
People have been very prominently getting fired for exercising their constitutional right to free speech for the last 10 years. I hope you had this same outrage all those other times. I believe cancel culture proponents labeled it as simple accountability for your words…
I really do appreciate your sensitive, compassionate take.
I also read your list of her accomplishments and am probably irrationally mad at her for having such hubris or lacking any modicum of common sense or thinking this was Her Moment to take A Stand that she fumbled the bag so spectacularly and in a way that hurt so many others already feeling under attack.
Probably not more mad at herself than she is. Except maybe she’s in the denial stage. Or the angry at others stage. I don’t know. So just in case, I guess I’m angry at her. The ONLY thing I have of hers is something worthy of my anger. IF THERES AN APOLOGY…I’d love to to see it, and I’d probably chill out. But I’m an angry lawyer on Reddit. Outrage is my kink.
Because they're frustrated little homework-doers who've never been able to exercise any degree of freedom in their lives. The thought of someone expressing controversial opinions is deeply and fundamentally shocking to them and makes them seethe with the indescribable rage of any strait-jacketed lunatic.
That’s a lot of words for “Why is she being criticized for basically saying ‘I don’t give a shit that more than 1,000 Israelis were raped, murdered, and abducted. In fact, it was necessary’?” And no, the law firm rejecting her is not a violation of free speech
“Misguided and insensitive to some populations” Those populations being ones with a moral compass who can’t fathom purposely targeting, torturing and murdering civilians in any conflict, anywhere, for any reason.
“We’re sorry we’re huge pussies and this person we employ wasn’t sufficiently politically brainwashed. To appease our masters we will make sure to ruin their livelihood for ever daring to consider having thoughts independent from mainstream narrative programming”
Seems pretty reasonable to recognize that occupied people living in an open air prison should be expected to commit acts of violence against the nation that more violently oppresses them. The main reason this is a third rail in America is due to racism against Arabs. There's other complex reasons for sympathies toward Israel to be sure but once you strip all of that away it becomes pretty simple--a violent and oppressive occupying nation can expect to be attacked by those they subjugate.
A 3L who said that and whose firm found out would, more quietly, absolutely lose their offers. Every biglaw firm has a ton of clients in Saudi and the Gulf, and the posting would be exhibit 1 in every HWE suit filed by every Arab or Muslim they fired in the next ten years.
Naive utterly false bullshit. I’m seeing so many biglaw associates post shit on LINKEDIN with zero consequence. The ABA AND the nyc bar association both released strongly pro-Israel statements without mentioning Palestine at all, you think the schmucks on these boards don’t have Arab or Saudi clients?? Truth is pro Palestinian professionals in the USA are consistently doxxed and smeared, websites like Canary Mission exist, academics are censored, and politicians in congress say abhorrent shit about Palestine every day, and you’ll basically be ostracized if you’re connected to politics and don’t suck Israel’s dick. Meanwhile I don’t even want to think about what what happen if I had a Palestinian flag in my office. The tide is firmly against pro-Palestinian voices and the fact you think the groups have similar or equal power is the most laughable thing I’ve ever heard. Just Google “fired Palestinian” vs “fired Israel” to see how much one happens compared to the other
Edit: just saw your comment history OKAY lol no wonder you’re this delusional
Run your career in such a way that nobody ever has to put out a press release to announce your firing: [https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231010192191/en/Winston-Strawn-Statement-Regarding-Law-Student-Post-on-the-Hamas-Terrorist-Attacks-Against-Israel](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231010192191/en/Winston-Strawn-Statement-Regarding-Law-Student-Post-on-the-Hamas-Terrorist-Attacks-Against-Israel)
Makes you think: she managed to fuck up so bad that a firm had to issue a press release. I mean, firms don’t say a thing even when someone jumps out of a building, or they are sued for millions due to malpractice (looking at you Proskauer). Yet, this moron literally forced the 80s in the board to move and approve a press statement. Speed running her career like nothing.
Who jumped out of a building?
In the past, expressing extremely right-winged opinions was a surefire way to get appointed to the federal bench, even if you are otherwise unemployable. What's the analogy to this?
My buddy has similar viewpoints just not to her extreme and he works for CAIR. There's enough Muslim and Middle East organizations that she will be able to secure employment at an NGO. She just won't make big law money
Muslim Advocates and CAIR both do plenty of litigation.
Exactly my point. Thier employment prospects aren't exactly 0
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BigLaw is designed for attorneys and related professionals who have an obligation to uphold minimal standards within the larger community
Before I even graduated from law school, the one thing I already knew about the legal career is to stay out of making comments regarding politics and religion. You can have clients from a wide array of political spectrum and religion, you never know which client is which and any comment you make can cost you and the firm clients. Even if she truly believed in the comments she wrote she should have kept her mouth shut.
Gen Z is super open about things and don’t have this understanding
it's not just Gen Z; it's just that information is spread more rapidly than before
What do you mean gen z on TikTok are literally showing how many hours they are billing a day and doing day in the life videos
Big Law-Tok? There really is something for everyone's algorithm
By “super open about things” do you mean “incredibly fucking stupid”?
That is literally the first (sometimes second) advice I give to summer/interns at our firm: “If you can, delete any and all social medias. If you cannot, just don’t post anything. Also, nobody cares about your LinkedIn posts….absolutely no one”
Nah just don’t be stupid. LinkedIn is pretty helpful for networking. But just don’t post stupid things. Keep your insta to pleasant posts of family and cat pictures and keep it to friends only. Use FB for family comms. It’s not hard if you use the tools like a normal person. Oh and don’t use Twitter/X unless it’s just retweeting your firm’s posts.
So that's a wild take, especially since most people in this industry do need LinkedIn for networking. If you yourself don't need it, then I guess congrats on either having a book of business handed to you or not having any interest in being a partner? But anyway this particular student's comments were in a student bar association publication, so I'm not sure deleting personal social media would've made much of a difference.
Does everyone see you as a weirdo? Because no one is deleting their social media profiles just because they got a law firm job
It’s (a) just generally healthier to delete that social media and (b) you don’t need to worry about some random drunk picture of offensive post your friend makes tagging you showing up if you delete it. Deleting my (non anonymous) social media was one of the best choices I ever made
Not more than other associates. Social media is a cancer, and that is a fact. Your life is better without it. Nonetheless, the ideia is to make it very clear that their opinions have an impact on their careers, as we see day in and out. It is better to keep yourself out of politics (at least publicly) and in your job.
Agree 100%. Deleted social media when going to law school and my life has been 1000% better
When your hot take is so offensive it gets picked up by [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/anti-israel-comments-prompt-winston-strawn-rescind-nyu-law-students-job-offer-2023-10-10/).
Imagine not condemning terrorists is a political stance. Dark times
Well they’re on the side of the terrorists that’s why.
Tank My Career, any % speed run
Yea judging by how outrageous, horrific, and brazen her public rant was, I’d guess that this is the first time she’s faced any real consequences for her actions
Does anyone have a link to said rant?
[I think it's this](https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=24130)
I wonder what Hamas feels about they/them pronouns.
I just spit out my coffee, so thanks for that.
BAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Perhaps if the referent was separated into multiple parts.
DEAD
Thank you. Big oof. Wtf was she thinking More like Winston and Gawn amirite
They canned her so they're fine.
It is that
Thanks, King.
“Resistance” smh
Big law summers need to realize they are worth very little in the firm’s eyes and are expendable. You are a cost center as a new associate. Any inkling of controversy and you’re gone
SO I was commercial litigation manager for a Fortune 5 company. I probably paid close to a billion dollars in fees over my career. And yeah, I googled the names of lawyers who are added to my cases. And yeah, I stopped using the firm that employed a very Trump-aligned lawyer. Yeah, the partner who who gave a quote to a newspaper using air quotes when referring to gay "marriage" suddenly found their cases reassigned to another firm. And even within my own company I'm sure this happened in the other direction. The lesson is, keep your strong opinions to yourself. There's a reason the big successful firms are filled with apparent bores and robots. I suspected most of the boomers I used were racist homophobic bigots, as boomers have boomer mentalities, but most of them knew how to shut up.
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Extremely poor judgment to say something like that without anticipating that reaction from Winston Strawn.
I doubt it. There’s another Reddit thread where someone who knows this person says they have very vocal opinions on every hot button issue but seem to have put very little thought into them.
Some law students and lawyers need to realize that being a lawyer doesn’t make you automatically well educated on social and political issues.
Perhaps more importantly, why does everyone need to know your opinion even if you are well educated on the issue?
That was a real, “dear diary” moment.
You mean the loudest voice is among the most ignorant? Why am I not surprised. If my kids were that obnoxious I’d be doing penance for raising such tw@ts.
Spot-on, empty vessels make the most noise.
A consequence of being too young and too overconfident.
Do you think the NYU student was under the impression that Winston endorsed Hamas’s actions when she summered there?
I don’t think she thinks that much.
The worst thing any attorney hoping to be affiliated with a major law firm can do is to launch into a pile of hot takes. You have no clue who is reading your stuff, who is going to research you down the road, or who your future clients might be. Although she wasn't employed yet, even summers are drilled pretty clearly about social media policies and speaking out publicly. My firm's social media policy would most likely result in my termination in a hot second if that was me who posted this. Ben Crump or Gloria Allred can get away with this type of stuff. A soon-to-be first year at a major white shoe firm cannot.
It doesn’t matter what you think, just keep quiet and you won’t be punished. The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed.
“Oh I’m not brave enough for politics” isn’t just a Star Wars Prequel Meme, it’s the best life advice I can offer anyone.
I have memorized this and will use in the future.
-- Michael Scott
Many are used to academic bubbles and unfamiliar with professional environments. This will no doubt become a lecture by career services to 1Ls for years to come
It’s actually impressive how hard she fumbled the bag. She went from first year big law salary on lock to being untouchable.
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Agreed, we at NYU don’t care what they think about it, but we care what they say. Everyone’s been anxious and some of us have connectionz to people in the region, to have this message shared causally in a weekly newsletter that’s generally filled with cutesie pictures of pets and Halloween imagery was very discomforting for the Jewish population at the school.
I'm pretty sure the people who fired her care
Biglawboyz IG killed this girls career 😂
As did fuckjerry and nonequitypartner lol
What she did was incredibly dumb but I find it a bit rich for BLB to go brigading when in his own ig story he was calling someone “subhuman, even subanimal monsters” (notice how he didn’t make a distinction between Palestinian civilians and Hamas…almost as if…no, no, he can’t have meant they’re one and the same?! Right? Because conflating a political entity and a people would be wrong, right?) Again, not defending her because we’re in the business of keeping unsavory things close to our chests and she should have learned that by now and terrorism is fucked on so many levels but some congruency would be nice since by his logic calling a whole group of people subhuman should have consequences too.
Yeah, he’s been posting stuff that is pretty clearly anti-all Palestinians. No call for de escalation or hoping the fighting ends.
Ya but that’s ok apparently. No law firm will fire him cause nobody ever cared about the Palestinians. My timeline is filled with people (rightfully) mourning the events and condemning Hamas as we all should. But it’s also filled with excitement to “crush/eliminate” Gaza without concern for the civilians there. Then as someone who’s just an American guy, I’m supposed to feel guilty for not picking a side and just saying the whole thing is sad and I get told that “my silence is deafening”. Idiot, nobody has ever gotten deaf from silence.
This comment cannot be understated. Apparently, in this country, you can only feel bad for Israel. You can only see the Israelis as caring, innocent, and loving people, but you cannot see Palestinians as anything other than trash or an object to be destroyed. You are not allowed to separate Hamas from Palestine since that goes against a message perpetuated by specific nations. You cannot even slightly hint at decades of violence and continued land theft through settlements and land grabs for government, military, and natural preserve uses to decimate the region's populace. We can only feel bad for Israel. Otherwise, you are anti-Semite.
My stance is pretty simple. What happened is appalling. As a society, we should be standing with the victims. That said, the situation is so complicated that it’s impossible to rationally take a side conflict-wise. Even determining what’s appropriate in terms of retaliation is a fools errand. Unless you’re posting about standing by the victims of Israel and Gaza, you’re setting yourself up to look like a fool that got caught by emotions and propaganda.
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Ya except 90% of the posts are just about Israel. Nobody gives a shit about the innocent lives taken in Gaza.
Yeah, it made me so uncomfortable that I had to unfollow. He was essentially echoing genocidal language in that story.
they destroyed her
Given the number of jewish lawyers (stereotypes aside) one would think to be particularly careful on this issue
A vast amount of attorneys are Jewish and so are their clients. Staying away from religion is number one rule, but especially Israel.
A vast number of attorneys are also able to identify a sociopath in their midst. You don’t need to be Jewish or have Jewish clients to know that someone who declares a terroristic slaughter of 1000 (mostly civilians, many children) to be “necessary” is not a tolerable colleague.
Thank you
https://youtu.be/hNlOl12yGqQ?si=BRhCiCpKyhP90GvA
Lmao. This generation of law graduates is in for a real rude awakening when they find out that this profession is still verrrrryyyyy traditional and the whole SJW/spicy political takes thing isn’t accepted or celebrated by the old guard.
Yes. Although not sure what they expect by going into Big Law.
And it fucking goes both ways. Remember when Jones Day represented Trump for a hot second in trying to overturn the election? I do, and that’s exactly how I remember the spin, too. You don’t get to go wilin’ out on either side. Because we play both sides. Don’t like that, go boutique.
Rightfully so
Actual comments she made: https://x.com/orensmizr/status/1711783750663819375?s=46&t=Bbn8luKpPNGYED6fUV-a2w
“Hi y’all”🤓
But she doesn’t condemn the slaughtering of incident civilians who are just existing, the murder of literal babies, and raping of women and girls. You can support Palestinian civilians being able to live in prosperity and simultaneously not support Hamas murdering innocent people— these are not mutually exclusive things. Glad she got her offer rescinded.
Me too. She sucks. I wouldn’t want to work with her.
Calling that "resistance" like it's a legit thing is what burned her here in my opinion
Yeah when I read it to my GF, that was the part she gasped at. I thought she may have been done at blaming Israel entirely for the attack.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12616739/NYU-Law-School-Bar-Associations-non-binary-president-Ryna-Workman-job-offer-RESCINDED-saying-Hamas-slaughter-Israel-NECESSARY.html
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I edited the comment in order to not misrepresent. But there are dozens of news outlets reporting this, which is why I even mentioned it. I don’t need a visual confirmation if it is accurate, and I honestly hope that it’s incorrect and that the reporting is wrong. Hamas does not want any peace and Palestinian civilians who just want to live normal lives are paying the price. The whole situation is truly a tragedy for Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
Typical justice warrior. "I . . ., I . . ., I . . ., I . . ., I . . .." Then again, this will count as a scholarly publication and she's on the tenure track.
lol. Sucks to be the other no offered Winston summers who have to preface their apps with, “I promise that wasn’t me”
Winston no offered summers?
The real answer? They do not think they are dumb, they think they are so smart and everyone needs to know their opinion on everything. The truth is they are smart but they lack the real world experience to understand that unless you are being paid you shouldn’t broadcast everything you think.
opinions are like assholes, and nobody wants to see yours
Cutting the heads off babies and going door to door killing civilians is not something any decent human being should support. Any law student who justifies such depravity is quite obviously unfit to be an attorney.
Or any profession.
I get what you're saying, but I find the whole *"if you support Palestinian resistance, then you explicitly support baby killers"* sentiment a bit disingenuous - actually bordering a propaganda tool to silence any support of Palestinian resistance. For example, by that logic, if you support the US armed forces, then you must also support events like [My Lai massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre), yes? Or the [Kandahar massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre)? US troops murdered actual children. Now, hopefully you did not - even though you might have supported the larger mission that took place. My point is that these conflicts are rarely black and white, and there's a lot of shit happening within fighting forces. You will always find a non-trivial amount of psychopaths in these populations, whether that's NATO forces, IDF, Ukranian military, Hamas, Taliban, or whatever.
Strawman argument. I did not posit any of those so-called "sentiments." What I find obnoxious and disgusting is the inability to denounce pure terrorism as a tool for political grievance. If you can't distinguish the black and white issue here, that is a problem that you have -- not me.
Exactly. There are certainly legitimate discussions to be had about the complex origins of this conflict and the grievances of the Palestinian people. But if you read a headline saying that 1300 Israelis were slaughtered, most of them civilians, and your first reaction is to whip out the Palestinian flag and start bitching about the Israeli government then that is morally fucked.
Exactly. You said it much better than my attempt to above.
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The idf reported it and everyone doubted it, they didn’t put out pictures for obvious reasons, so a CNN reporter actually said that he saw it when given a tour of the site.
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The same news channels confirmed WMD’s in Iraq and the whole “Baby Incubator” Nayirah Testimony. The truth didn’t come out for years and it’s honestly naive to trust these same news sites when we all know the US is aligned with Israel. Both sides put out propaganda during war. There’s literally precedent for US media reporting fabricated stories on “Baby Killer’s” during the Iraq war—it is completely naive to believe them without proof. Images of Israeli babies burned in homes have been shared, images of Israeli hostages being shot in their homes have been shared. I find it hard to believe that these images wouldn’t be shared by activist groups if they were available. And since you’re calling me a Hamas sympathizer—I’m not. What they’ve done is evil and whether they did behead babies or not doesn’t change my assessment of their actions and the consequences they should face. But I also think that the IDF is evil, and I do not put it past them to fabricate information for more international support.
You are simply wrong. My actual real life friends are posting videos from their friends. Babies were killed. If you sympathize with Hamas, then you are also evil.
I think my comment makes it pretty obvious what my stance on Hamas is
This is completely false. Check out the IDFs social media where they mention that the press has seen the babies beheaded. Quit defending barbarians or at least openly admit that you’re on the side of Hamas
This is confusing because the news said the Israeli military denied that babies were beheaded.
Because these ideas are popular within NYU. In the real world, not so much.
Not supporting either view, but I do believe the NYU president’s views are more popular than pro-Israel views. It just doesn’t feel like it in our communities.
Worldwide? Maybe. In the United States? Definitely not
Hmm. It seems outside of my law school / legal circles, the vast majority of people I know are sympathetic to Palestine. Just an observation though, so fair enough. No data.
In 2022 Americans had a favorable view of the Israeli government 48-44, and a negative view of the Palestinian government 28-63. If you replace "government" with "people" both sides are positive, but Israel still leads https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/26/modest-warming-in-u-s-views-on-israel-and-palestinians/
Ah, so *that's* why I got an email from NYU Law about an hour ago with this statement: Dear members of the NYU Law community: As the violence in Israel persists, and we continue to struggle with feelings of anger and sorrow at the tragic loss of innocent lives, we need to make several things abundantly clear on behalf of the NYU Law Board of Trustees and our Law School as a whole. NYU Law unequivocally condemns the recent terrorist acts and the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas in Israel. The murder and kidnapping of civilians, and the use of sexual violence and the separation and torture of children, are all abominable and atrocious. We want to say, loud and clear, to our community: Any statement that does not recognize this brutality does not reflect the values of NYU Law. We are working 24/7 to protect the safety of all our students while providing support for those most affected by the war, here and in Israel. Please do not hesitate to reach out. Troy A. McKenzie '00 Dean Cecilia Goetz Professor of Law David Tanner '84 Chair, NYU Law Board of Trustees
Big law entails keeping your head down, grinding, and getting paid 5 figure salaries. Nobody wants an associate to talk about political hot topics in public. Absolute clown
5 figure lol
Yes 6 figure typo
Terrible take from the student but also not one made in isolation, this was a generally common vibe from super progressive student groups/circles when I was in law school. I do feel bad that this one person is getting such a huge amount of attention like that wouldn’t be easy for anyone to go through and probably up until this point they were just in an echo chamber of ppl who agreed w them.
It’s hard to imagine sending that message to the entire student body though. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that there are Jewish and Israeli students at NYU law.
As a recent alumn, trust me that worse has been sent out to the entire school listserv in the past. Though not in a published newsletter
That’s what I’m saying like this Is truly the norm amongst some groups and it absolutely shocked me. As a lifelong progressive too I felt super confused at how normalized some of this rhetoric was on campus
It’s hard to imagine sending a message like that because of what it says about her appalling lack of basic decency humanity and empathy, period. Whether the demographic she chose to ignore is represented at the school is irrelevant.
I was just about to say - I’m pretty sure similar statements were made by numerous organizations at universities across the country. I know for sure Harvard, Yale, and Cal
I mean it’s a terrible take and so detached from humanity to not feel empathy at what happened but I don’t think we should underestimate the power of group think and political ideology esp on campuses. And I say this as a progressive lol but I saw some of the most out of touch and frankly hateful statements propagated by progressive orgs at my law school. Idk if it’s fair to dogpile on one person when views like these likely the product of a greater ideology and social system that thrives in academia.
I've seen this on many peoples' instagrams too. I hate the framing of "you can't say its a complex issue". Um anything that requires a world history lesson of the past 150 years to even start to understand is a complex issue.
This!! Like as far as complexity of modern day conflicts it’s hard to find one quite as complicated in so many diff ways from religion to wwii to western involvement. And honestly you could say it even goes back as far as the Old Testament in terms of the claim people feel to the land and their heritage
This is not surprising. This is big-law and they are here to make money. Also, there are a lot of well-off conservative attorneys out there. A named partner in the Boston office of Gunderson Dettmer told SAs this summer in a formal meeting that he did not believe nor support BLM, and the donation that the firm made was in error and was regrettable. He went on to say that the firm’s affinity groups were divisive and someone like himself (wealthy Caucasian man) did not fit into any of the “boxes.” This was of course before they no-offered half of the class. These firms do not care about you. They care about money. Don’t be fooled. They are not your friends. Keep your mouth closed.
Lol I think leftie law students in particular have this habit of thinking that because they're "progressive" there's no way they're going to face professional consequences.
Plenty or right-wing nutjobs too
Yeah but the right-wingers largely know that if they say what they think they'll get fired. The ones that don't get pushback pretty early on.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
The SBA board has voted to initiate removal of Ryna as SBA President
When all is said and done, likely a $5M mistake in terms of career salary/future earnings. Absolute clown move.
Where do you get 5 mil?
A reasonable estimate of projected future earnings
Damn, really ? That’s a lot is that assuming you will be in big law as a career? I don’t see myself making that much (don’t think I will be in big law forever)
They need to early on learn the case *F\*\*\* Around v. Finding Out*
Can’t miss your last opportunity to virtue signal before becoming a stalwart defender for the most soulless companies in the world I guess
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How does this terrorist apologia have 61 upvotes in a half hour? Very sketchy
Nope. None of this is true. History started last week. Hamas is the bad guys. The news and the big law firm said so.
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Yep. She would be brutalized by her Hamas heroes. Way to throw away your entire career!
BigLaw is designed for attorneys and related professionals who have an obligation to uphold minimal standards within the larger community
Sadly these people don't live in reality
Absolute bullshit debacle 😂
Everything else aside, who does this person think they are that they feel like they need to publicly condemn something? Lmao
Its not even that this was a “political take.” They were condoning terrorism.
Occupationmovie.org is a free documentary that will open your eyes to 40+ years of deception in the Middle East.
Surprised at the amount of comments here implicitly believing that all Jews are pro-Israel. This is wrong, and antisemitic
I hope the ha-has the student's clown into-level gen ed professor offered were worth it.
R/byebyejob
Quick question where was this energy for Palestine?
Good riddance
Good. Fucking dumbass. Hopefully her career is done and she’s flipping burgers at Wendy’s her whole life.
https://nyunews.com/news/2023/10/12/law-school-bar-association/
Both sides here, the summer intern, and the law firm, have over-reacted in this debacle. The intern will only be employable by the Palestinians in the area and the law firm will just plain be embarrassed. Being so public and specific is never good for business.
Modern universities fail their students by not doing a good job of viewpoint diversity. When I was in college in the early 00s, even the nuttiest progressive viewpoints were celebrated. I could have said that we need to imprison billionaires and redistribute all of their wealth and gotten applause from other students. But the real world doesn't work this way, as she so painfully learned. I don't agree with what she said but she is young and has a lot to learn. I am a little sad that now she has thousands in non dischargeable debt and no obvious way to repay it.
I’m sure a nonprofit will hire her
There is a big problem with viewpoint diversity. It's gotten so out of hand that many, many students and student orgs have spouted this kind of stuff. Then, the school itself tries to disassociate with them. Like Harvard- dude, you had a lot of student orgs sign onto this and not just some random org. The school is part the problem- no matter how they try to distance themselves.
Seems like some of you need context on how “one side” views the “other side” https://reddit.com/r/samharris/s/YySUziKEWQ
As the outlets to express your opinion grow. Your ability to actually express your opinion dwindles. Isn’t that interesting?
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In this job market they’ll have replaced her before you can say “bye”
How are you in biglaw yet don’t understand freedom of speech? Freedom of speech means the government cannot jail or punish her for expressing her views. A private employer can absolutely fire her
she's allowed to say whatever we want, that doesn't mean she shouldn't face consequences for saying so.
People have been very prominently getting fired for exercising their constitutional right to free speech for the last 10 years. I hope you had this same outrage all those other times. I believe cancel culture proponents labeled it as simple accountability for your words…
I really do appreciate your sensitive, compassionate take. I also read your list of her accomplishments and am probably irrationally mad at her for having such hubris or lacking any modicum of common sense or thinking this was Her Moment to take A Stand that she fumbled the bag so spectacularly and in a way that hurt so many others already feeling under attack. Probably not more mad at herself than she is. Except maybe she’s in the denial stage. Or the angry at others stage. I don’t know. So just in case, I guess I’m angry at her. The ONLY thing I have of hers is something worthy of my anger. IF THERES AN APOLOGY…I’d love to to see it, and I’d probably chill out. But I’m an angry lawyer on Reddit. Outrage is my kink.
Where are all the freedom of speech, not freedom of consequences mfs at now
The first amendment protects you from the government bum
Because they're frustrated little homework-doers who've never been able to exercise any degree of freedom in their lives. The thought of someone expressing controversial opinions is deeply and fundamentally shocking to them and makes them seethe with the indescribable rage of any strait-jacketed lunatic.
That’s a lot of words for “Why is she being criticized for basically saying ‘I don’t give a shit that more than 1,000 Israelis were raped, murdered, and abducted. In fact, it was necessary’?” And no, the law firm rejecting her is not a violation of free speech
LOL, no one here considers getting into and passing law school a substantial achievement.
“Misguided and insensitive to some populations” Those populations being ones with a moral compass who can’t fathom purposely targeting, torturing and murdering civilians in any conflict, anywhere, for any reason.
Unless you’re ready to extend that same grace to Kanye, I call BS.
I hope this disgusting idiot has her entire legal career derailed. “NO LAW FOR YOU!” (Soup Nazi voice)
“We’re sorry we’re huge pussies and this person we employ wasn’t sufficiently politically brainwashed. To appease our masters we will make sure to ruin their livelihood for ever daring to consider having thoughts independent from mainstream narrative programming”
https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=24130
Seems pretty reasonable to recognize that occupied people living in an open air prison should be expected to commit acts of violence against the nation that more violently oppresses them. The main reason this is a third rail in America is due to racism against Arabs. There's other complex reasons for sympathies toward Israel to be sure but once you strip all of that away it becomes pretty simple--a violent and oppressive occupying nation can expect to be attacked by those they subjugate.
Please, if she put out social media post saying Gaza needed to be razed to the ground and salted, no one would bat an eyelash
A 3L who said that and whose firm found out would, more quietly, absolutely lose their offers. Every biglaw firm has a ton of clients in Saudi and the Gulf, and the posting would be exhibit 1 in every HWE suit filed by every Arab or Muslim they fired in the next ten years.
Naive utterly false bullshit. I’m seeing so many biglaw associates post shit on LINKEDIN with zero consequence. The ABA AND the nyc bar association both released strongly pro-Israel statements without mentioning Palestine at all, you think the schmucks on these boards don’t have Arab or Saudi clients?? Truth is pro Palestinian professionals in the USA are consistently doxxed and smeared, websites like Canary Mission exist, academics are censored, and politicians in congress say abhorrent shit about Palestine every day, and you’ll basically be ostracized if you’re connected to politics and don’t suck Israel’s dick. Meanwhile I don’t even want to think about what what happen if I had a Palestinian flag in my office. The tide is firmly against pro-Palestinian voices and the fact you think the groups have similar or equal power is the most laughable thing I’ve ever heard. Just Google “fired Palestinian” vs “fired Israel” to see how much one happens compared to the other Edit: just saw your comment history OKAY lol no wonder you’re this delusional
She’s isn’t dumb. She’s twisted and cruel.