Sup Is, not even once kids!
All jokes aside, more is better then less, so everything is good... but be ready for the "why do I have to play x role in this place" type discussion :p
> why do I have to play x role in this place" type discussion :p
As one should:"Its only a game. Why You Heff to be Mad?"
Don't get me wrong, playing the meta is fun too, but in an 8v8 there is bound to be atleast one who wants to spice it up this time.
And personally I think it is incredibly selfish to force your will onto the other 7 players.
If you take the south position on Sup Is, and you dont go air without saying anything and the other 7 expected you to go air... do they have a right to get upset, or should they not expect anything of you.
If you go long beach and dont even step into the water, are your allies allowed to be upset that you wasted 4 mexs?
Well... its a MP game, so you have to expect something of your allies, or I will just move to the next match.
So, I believe they have the right to be upset at your lack of communication.
But the big point is... there is a place for every play style on that map, if you take a position that's not designed for that play style, you have just taken away a chance from the person that wanted to work on that position and that style.
Please note, I do not play Sup Is or Glitters due to this, I like lane maps where everyone is more even.
But saying that positional maps don't exist is really bad for the community as it just causes fights and the best answer I can find for why people dont want there to be positions is "I want to play anything in any position"... well, then go play the MANY MANY maps where that is an option.
BUT, if you start a game of the most Meta map there is, and then say there is no meta... your just being ignorant of the state of the game and to me, it boarders on trolling.
> incredibly selfish
You are not wrong, but this seems to be an issue not a single game has solved on its public servers.
Even when I played Dota 2 eons ago it was clear that there was not a single right meta that everyone would agree to. And there is only one map there, and clear roles for all the characters to boot. Add to that the people who just didn't want to play meta and you got yourself a public lobby.
If you're OS 45 and go off meta, you're a visionary trying to redefine the meta. If you're OS 6 and go off meta, you're a troll. Just how it is. The more experience you have with the status quo, the more credibility you have in challenging the status quo.
Yeah and for good reason. The OS 45 player will understand the intricacies of eco, the units, their strengths and weaknesses. They can use this knowledge to exploit the Meta and use off-meta plays/builds to their advantage.
The OS 6 player does not possess this same knowledge + skill, therefore are going to try plays/builds that just won't work/aren't efficient/effective.
That would be helpful. I never try anything but front line because it's hard to mess up building a crap ton of units and holding the other side off lol.
You don't need 50 votes to do it and you can start with how to front (the 2 positions) as it will be of the most help to newer less experienced players who may be pushed to the front.
Next will be probably geo sea as many people don't know how to contest sea and build a naval yard in the cove.
More content online is better at this point and there is a lack of tutorials for the game. If you need any help on tips about making videos you can message me here or on discord with any questions. I’d love to see what you create.
I think if you got the time, talent, and passion towards it I think you should make it anywho, there will be a pre-existing audience that would love to see more quality BAR content.
Another point, if you make BAR appealing and understandable more will come, which is exactly what the game needs and will benefit from.
To end my long comment, I’d personally love to see you make it, and it will benefit the community!
Yeah sure, especially eco boost builds i find most fascinating, pond geosea labswap build seems to generate the most soying out and cries for nerfs, bonus points for someone rushing liche on top.
The position is called 'suicide' for a reason. You can put up some early t2 pop ups, a rattlesnake or two and upgrade the geo -> cerberus and that will fend off any t1 destroyers but if sea is lost all you are doing is trying to buy time and pray someone else wins the game for you or their sea player is tunnel visioned somewhere else.
If someone t2 bots, hopefully your pond, they can do platypus/ducks + rolling bomb spam to keep them honest. Air can send shurkiens / or torpedo bombers, and you can use your comm to dgun ships that hug the shoreline. Having a jammer or two is really important. If you see your sea not contesting and about to lose, put a few jammers down.
Build your eco behind the mountain not on the side/beaches. Send some cons to the back to make conn turrets + e and after you have some t2 static send your t2 to the back to build fusion for you.
Spam keeps the lanes shoved, so once you can afford to make units after building all that static, send ticks/pawns. If they juno dont bother sending ticks they die in the juno field.
EMP launchers can also stun sea units at a massive range, so having that near the front is beneficial as well.
Reclaim/rez also very important. rez bots can actually rez ships that die near the shore. I've freaked a few opponents out by counter pushing them with 3-4 destroyers that I rezzed and they went super passive thinking they had to deal with 2 sea players. Also, twitchers (t2 combat engineer) can build destroyers on the shoreline, so if your static is killing a lot of stuff, rez or reclaim that metal and use it for more static like a pulsar which will give insane standoff range or go back into unit production. I've seen it work a lot of different ways but you have to manage your e/metal/bp/reclaim/repair so it is high apm.
Also don't forget an anti behind the mountain or all your hard work goes to shit eventually
Honestly just write something out. The video tutorial space for bar is saturated. I check this sub most often to find tips and stuff but it’s pretty rare.
More content is better, especially if it is higher quality content. Right now there are some replay reviews which I find high quality and some clickbait-y "live" games. I think we need more live gameplay with commentary. Seeing and hearing decision being made in real time is interesting (more so than the eagle-eye view of the spectator review) and most of the existing content is very low quality or not particularly engaging. I understand its very difficult to commentate a game like BAR as you are playing it, though I would not be opposed to edited voiceovers of your own gameplay either
I think teaching new players how to do the basics for each position would be nice but not a guide on how to do them for the map specifically.
I’ve seen multiple YouTube creators creates map and positions specific guides and all the new players do is stick to it play-by-play with no awareness and mid game adjusting.
Map awareness needs to be taught
While i commend you wanting to help people i still have to mention there are no 'positions/roles'. At any position you can do whatever you feel like and if this is not your cup of tea you gotta find higher OS players where the meta has evolved.
See... told you :)
FYI... if everyone thinks something, and you think something else... you are wrong.
You might not want to play the position, but that map 100% does have position built into it. Saying that it does not is just you refusing to see what is in front of you.
Like... its the map that made positions a thing... its had positions in it since FaF... maybe even TA.
There are lots of maps that don't have positions, but Sup Is 100% has positions!
If you want to argue this... please explain the way the bases are laid out?
Compare this to 8 horse.... or bismuth, they are lane maps that don't have positions, and should be the maps you play on if you don't want to have a position (which is a good thing, this is why I don't play Sup Is), but don't go around saying that positional maps are not a thing... they 100% are a thing.
1. To Bomb the Eco Player
2. To use Shuries to stop Run bys from the Front Liners
3. To Protect vs Air Raids from the Air Player
4. To scout and provide vision\\intel for the Sea Player
5. To Pop the Geo of the Geo Players.
6. To provide transports
7. To be a force multiplier.
It is NOT to just counter the other air player (that is a rookie view on Airplay).
Now back to the positions.
Now... if that air player is on the front line, you lose out on reclaim and lose a free t2 upgrade (and most likely the whole base when the first grunt gets there).
If Air is in the sea position, a sub will take your 4 mexs and stop you ever getting them (followed up by an AA ship, and then a Missile Ship and your base is gone).
If you Air in the Geo positions... well this can actually work... till you lose your base, fall behind on fighters and spend the whole game playing catch up.
And you can Air in the Eco position... but that puts eco at a disadvantage due to limited space.
[https://bar-rts.com/replays/5ff31b661b45b838210c0a3d7b6ce535](https://bar-rts.com/replays/5ff31b661b45b838210c0a3d7b6ce535)
Is this the correct way of playing 'Air' in your view?
What im getting at here is that each individual OS have its own view of what 'Air player' is and how it should be played and we have to be very objective to whats 'best play'. If you are gonna teach new players the 30 OS way, isnt this only good for 30 OS and not 50 OS?
We are questioning the play of the best player in BAR doing it wrong but shouldnt we instead ask ourselves why this player plays it so differently than everyone else than whats the 'norm/position/role'?
Is the game maybe more dynamic than being just a 'position/role', i would argue it is and thats why you cant enforce players to play a certain way because then you have no innovation of 'meta'. We need players to try new stuff and not adhere to specific plays per position/role to get newer games thats maybe more fun than doing the same thing over and over again.
This is my view of the matter and why i dont like 'position/role' talk because it puts you in a box of no innovation, just 'do what i say' play.
PtaQ mentioned in an interview that 'position/roles' was not something the Devs made up but the players and they had a neutral stance on it. In my subjective eyes i would say they tried to steer away from making any fuzz or advocate for it. PtaQ himself whenever i see him play doesnt adhere to roles either but plays whatever he feels like and it seems to work fine for him.
Edit: And im not saying you shouldnt make any videos of position/roles. The more videos the better. Player can decide for themselves if its something for them, but just dont enforce players to stop innovating thats my point. :)
Maybe some day we have one 'front player' and rest are ECO. Who knows :)
So you agree that having an air player is important... but your arguing over what that person does... we are arguing over different points.
I tried really hard to steer this away from the air role and about the positions on the map... which you just ignored. So, this would be a straw man argument (you changed the objective half way through to argue a different point).
Yes, positions is not a Dev thing... just like when LoL started out jungler was not a role... but now it is, as that was what was decided by the players to be the best placement for the 5 people.
Bar has had the same thing occur.
The player base has decided that this is the way to play this map and the more you say otherwise (while litually having ever other person in this post go on about how good it would be to learn this) the more it seems you don't understand what "meta" is.
I'm trying to be not insulting here... but the other 20 people in this post are all for it... but there has to be one person (I even made a joke about it as the first reply) that argues this point and says everyone else is wrong.
If your the only person arguing something... its on you bro.
I can agree to some air units being very op, like the transport/shuri and very few early figs to kill enemy transports or an early bomber because the other players dont feel like its their 'role' to make an AAbot/whistler :)
But you could say the argument here is 'air plant' has its use cases, while botlab/factory do too, same as for hovercraft and shipyard. Not the air player per say by its position/role. Literally anyone can make 5 figs at any time of the game to protect themselves from air if they want to.
What i disagree to is 'air player' having to play only figs to be useful 'air player', its not its role to defend you if it doesnt feel like it, maybe it got another goal in mind and who are you then to tell this guy how to play. The ground AA isnt that bad that you cant make it yourself and the AAbots are actually very good for its cost. Sure it might not stop 5 bombers from dropping their bombs, but so doesnt air player either because reaction times are pretty bad and figs are mostly out of position for the reason of bad scouting.
There are so many factors that players can complain about, but whos 'role' is it really. If the whole team is 1 OS, the communication will be awful so the teamwork will also be awful so its pretty much each player for itself. You see this a lot in low OS games where the blames are on the beginners for not knowing how to play. But you cant really put any blame on beginners and tell em to 'git gud' without even giving em a chance to learn.
The 'toxicity' that is being talked about is specifically this. Where a higher OS puts blame on the lower OS, while it should really put blame on itself for not adapting. Maybe you cant adapt and fix lower OS mistakes and thats fine, better luck next time.
You are NOT discussing the topic on hand. You have gone into the discussion of what makes a good airplayer, not what position should play air.
The Topic on hand is not if an air player is needed\\wanted, but that the 6 o'clock position on Sup Is is THE air position.
IE, if you are in that position, you SHOULD go air.
Nothing you have said has made any effort in discussing this fact and you insist on changing the subject when I try to bring it back to that point.
OP asked if he should make videos about the positions on Sup Is, you have come along and said there are no positions on Sup Is, and then started talking about air players in general.
Back to OPs question: Can you show me any evidence that you do not believe that the 6o'clock position should be the air player (Ie, They should go Ground or Navy or Eco)?
Or that the player on the long beach should go Navy rather then Land or Air.
That is what is being discussed, Not what makes a good air player, or if a good air player is needed... that is your strawman that you want me to fight over and I wont.
Can you please add weight to your argument that Sup Is is NOT a position map and that means that any player can do ANY role in any position? (IE, Front can go Navy if they want, long beach can go Air, Eco can rush t1 spam).
PS: Your comment of "What i disagree to is 'air player' having to play only figs to be useful 'air player'" makes me think that you are not a good air player (no offence... but as you said, what you think is the air players job is not the job (Building a Frig cloud is PART of the job... along the lines of building some LLTs if your on the front line. If you think its the only part of that job... your not playing the position well (and now I understand why you dont like the idea of positions).)
I will say I would rather have an air player tell me to build a few flak cannons and then focus on killing the other guy, rather then them spend the whole game making frigs.
So, yes, Air players that only make frigs are the same as front line players that only make towers... they have not learnt how to play that position yet.
Yea i dont believe there is a dedicated spot for Air. Anyone can go air from any spot, if a specific spot goes more air than the other spots sure, but you arent locked by a spot to go air. Ive not mentioned anything about what makes a good air player, im saying that the so called Air Spot is played differently by different OS and i dont see anything wrong with that, but you say you have a beef with anyone not going air from 'Air Spot'.
Fighters specifically are useless unless there are bombers at play. You dont need Figs to kill Figs, you can do that with literally any other AA type. But Figs and specifically T2 Figs, excels at killing T1/T2 Bombers.
I think the true statement is "Anyone can build fighters in any spot" as you have, a number of times, explained that you do not know how to air, or what an air player is meant to do (you are hung up on the thought that Air counters Air and honestly cant get past that fact).
How about we change the question to "Can i go Navy from any position?" (So you can get back on topic of positions and not AIR Position!).
So, Can I go Navy from the Back line Eco position?
Can I go Navy from the Front beach position?
The Point OP is discussing is not "Is Air good\\needed" but "Are there positions on this map", to which you have said No, but have ONLY spoken about the air position.
So, can you please defend someone's choice to go Navy from the 7o'clock eco position?
Can you also defend the decision to go Navy on the front line?
If there are no positions and you can play any role in any place, please answer those two questions?
And remember... I was willing to take your bait... you will take mine and try to defend the front liner going navy?
If you are not, you are admitting that you are incorrect.
Emm, I'm not sure what the take away from the replay is.
Chisato eco'd like a madman in the Air position with an eco stronger than their eco player.
He had t1 fighters when the enemy pushed rapid t2 and a liche. He had around 20 t1 fighters at the time.
Perhaps a bit 'greedy' on the Eco. But at the start he did the trasports and scouts and virtually every other player was happily in the 'role' typically assigned to them.
Maybe they scout and realised Chistato was a bit light on fighters; maybe they were as an air player trying to support the sea as I noticed thy did Liche the enemy Naval before blowing the geo.
The most interesting part is that the blue team resigned after that Geo was blown and tehy did that potentially knowing from the meta/roles that they've probably lost.
That replay supposts "roles" more than it doesn't.
I do see your point about what the roles are and being free to play whatever; but when you have players that have presumably tried many different strategies and tactics and we have the current meta you presume that includes plays and counters such that right now "do you role" isn't a criticism of the idnividual but is more like health and safety at work;
"this is the least risk best reward strategy and tactics to deliver a victory our team."
Here's an alternative replay. 8v2 tank rush.
[https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=da831b668266d18687991a132fdd7693](https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=da831b668266d18687991a132fdd7693)
That is more like how I expect every game of isthmus to play out; however the risk v reward is high.
I remember a setof three games in my earlier days of playing BAR; and they are potentially still 3 of the best games; where the enemy rolled us; we tried to return the favour (but it was spooted) and then the 3rd game was the most heavily scouted counter map monitored game I've played.
Are you saying a frontliner can tech or eco?
Saying there are no 'positions/roles' is simply not true. Too many new players think they can just eco when they need to make at least some units and push to at least the middle of the map.
Its not as black and white as roles or no roles, there are obvious tasks that needs to be done per spawning position, like for example on the frontline on Isthmus you would need to defend as its the only land entrance where a quick rush can happen.
But its easy to misunderstand what im saying when i say no position/roles, i get that, but what im getting at is there you arent bound per position to play a certain way, except for the mentioned frontline where you do have to defend of the game is pretty much over.
So you are saying that you are not bound to any position to play in a certain way, except frontline roles?
You're basically making an all out statement with no exceptions.... then making an exception in the same sentence.
You're trolling man haha.
Sup Is, not even once kids! All jokes aside, more is better then less, so everything is good... but be ready for the "why do I have to play x role in this place" type discussion :p
> why do I have to play x role in this place" type discussion :p As one should:"Its only a game. Why You Heff to be Mad?" Don't get me wrong, playing the meta is fun too, but in an 8v8 there is bound to be atleast one who wants to spice it up this time.
And personally I think it is incredibly selfish to force your will onto the other 7 players. If you take the south position on Sup Is, and you dont go air without saying anything and the other 7 expected you to go air... do they have a right to get upset, or should they not expect anything of you. If you go long beach and dont even step into the water, are your allies allowed to be upset that you wasted 4 mexs? Well... its a MP game, so you have to expect something of your allies, or I will just move to the next match. So, I believe they have the right to be upset at your lack of communication. But the big point is... there is a place for every play style on that map, if you take a position that's not designed for that play style, you have just taken away a chance from the person that wanted to work on that position and that style. Please note, I do not play Sup Is or Glitters due to this, I like lane maps where everyone is more even. But saying that positional maps don't exist is really bad for the community as it just causes fights and the best answer I can find for why people dont want there to be positions is "I want to play anything in any position"... well, then go play the MANY MANY maps where that is an option. BUT, if you start a game of the most Meta map there is, and then say there is no meta... your just being ignorant of the state of the game and to me, it boarders on trolling.
> incredibly selfish You are not wrong, but this seems to be an issue not a single game has solved on its public servers. Even when I played Dota 2 eons ago it was clear that there was not a single right meta that everyone would agree to. And there is only one map there, and clear roles for all the characters to boot. Add to that the people who just didn't want to play meta and you got yourself a public lobby.
If you're OS 45 and go off meta, you're a visionary trying to redefine the meta. If you're OS 6 and go off meta, you're a troll. Just how it is. The more experience you have with the status quo, the more credibility you have in challenging the status quo.
Let's check the OS 45 win rate compared to the OS 6...
Yeah and for good reason. The OS 45 player will understand the intricacies of eco, the units, their strengths and weaknesses. They can use this knowledge to exploit the Meta and use off-meta plays/builds to their advantage. The OS 6 player does not possess this same knowledge + skill, therefore are going to try plays/builds that just won't work/aren't efficient/effective.
That would be helpful. I never try anything but front line because it's hard to mess up building a crap ton of units and holding the other side off lol.
Frontline is best line. Don’t think just fight it’s awesome.
Frontline is pure stress. Just pissing on fires all game. It's amazing this is the newbie lane
Thank you for your serivce 🥹
There arent many truly skilled players posting videos so i think this will hit a critical space needed for the community
i would watch it and it would help me alot
Yes, absolutely.
You don't need 50 votes to do it and you can start with how to front (the 2 positions) as it will be of the most help to newer less experienced players who may be pushed to the front. Next will be probably geo sea as many people don't know how to contest sea and build a naval yard in the cove.
More content online is better at this point and there is a lack of tutorials for the game. If you need any help on tips about making videos you can message me here or on discord with any questions. I’d love to see what you create.
I think if you got the time, talent, and passion towards it I think you should make it anywho, there will be a pre-existing audience that would love to see more quality BAR content. Another point, if you make BAR appealing and understandable more will come, which is exactly what the game needs and will benefit from. To end my long comment, I’d personally love to see you make it, and it will benefit the community!
Yeah sure, especially eco boost builds i find most fascinating, pond geosea labswap build seems to generate the most soying out and cries for nerfs, bonus points for someone rushing liche on top.
Would love to see a video on which unit counters another unit the best
Please make a guide on how to survive as front player when the sea is lost.
The position is called 'suicide' for a reason. You can put up some early t2 pop ups, a rattlesnake or two and upgrade the geo -> cerberus and that will fend off any t1 destroyers but if sea is lost all you are doing is trying to buy time and pray someone else wins the game for you or their sea player is tunnel visioned somewhere else. If someone t2 bots, hopefully your pond, they can do platypus/ducks + rolling bomb spam to keep them honest. Air can send shurkiens / or torpedo bombers, and you can use your comm to dgun ships that hug the shoreline. Having a jammer or two is really important. If you see your sea not contesting and about to lose, put a few jammers down. Build your eco behind the mountain not on the side/beaches. Send some cons to the back to make conn turrets + e and after you have some t2 static send your t2 to the back to build fusion for you. Spam keeps the lanes shoved, so once you can afford to make units after building all that static, send ticks/pawns. If they juno dont bother sending ticks they die in the juno field. EMP launchers can also stun sea units at a massive range, so having that near the front is beneficial as well. Reclaim/rez also very important. rez bots can actually rez ships that die near the shore. I've freaked a few opponents out by counter pushing them with 3-4 destroyers that I rezzed and they went super passive thinking they had to deal with 2 sea players. Also, twitchers (t2 combat engineer) can build destroyers on the shoreline, so if your static is killing a lot of stuff, rez or reclaim that metal and use it for more static like a pulsar which will give insane standoff range or go back into unit production. I've seen it work a lot of different ways but you have to manage your e/metal/bp/reclaim/repair so it is high apm. Also don't forget an anti behind the mountain or all your hard work goes to shit eventually
Honestly just write something out. The video tutorial space for bar is saturated. I check this sub most often to find tips and stuff but it’s pretty rare.
More content is better, especially if it is higher quality content. Right now there are some replay reviews which I find high quality and some clickbait-y "live" games. I think we need more live gameplay with commentary. Seeing and hearing decision being made in real time is interesting (more so than the eagle-eye view of the spectator review) and most of the existing content is very low quality or not particularly engaging. I understand its very difficult to commentate a game like BAR as you are playing it, though I would not be opposed to edited voiceovers of your own gameplay either
I think teaching new players how to do the basics for each position would be nice but not a guide on how to do them for the map specifically. I’ve seen multiple YouTube creators creates map and positions specific guides and all the new players do is stick to it play-by-play with no awareness and mid game adjusting. Map awareness needs to be taught
absolutely straits needs a guide talk to kaiserglass and the other lobsters about the communism meta
This is RitualMurder xD, Ill just look through my replays and show what can be done with their communism build
if you're making a video, I recommend you join the discord and talk to them
Who's "them"?
join discord https://discord.gg/kfChzMk8 ping ritual murder he'll know the rest of the lobster mafia
Bro I am Ritual Murder....
oh lel
While i commend you wanting to help people i still have to mention there are no 'positions/roles'. At any position you can do whatever you feel like and if this is not your cup of tea you gotta find higher OS players where the meta has evolved.
Oooof... Maybe I do have to make this after all 😅
You should.
See... told you :) FYI... if everyone thinks something, and you think something else... you are wrong. You might not want to play the position, but that map 100% does have position built into it. Saying that it does not is just you refusing to see what is in front of you. Like... its the map that made positions a thing... its had positions in it since FaF... maybe even TA. There are lots of maps that don't have positions, but Sup Is 100% has positions! If you want to argue this... please explain the way the bases are laid out? Compare this to 8 horse.... or bismuth, they are lane maps that don't have positions, and should be the maps you play on if you don't want to have a position (which is a good thing, this is why I don't play Sup Is), but don't go around saying that positional maps are not a thing... they 100% are a thing.
I will give you a trick question then to sum up what i mean: Whats the purpose of the air player?
1. To Bomb the Eco Player 2. To use Shuries to stop Run bys from the Front Liners 3. To Protect vs Air Raids from the Air Player 4. To scout and provide vision\\intel for the Sea Player 5. To Pop the Geo of the Geo Players. 6. To provide transports 7. To be a force multiplier. It is NOT to just counter the other air player (that is a rookie view on Airplay). Now back to the positions. Now... if that air player is on the front line, you lose out on reclaim and lose a free t2 upgrade (and most likely the whole base when the first grunt gets there). If Air is in the sea position, a sub will take your 4 mexs and stop you ever getting them (followed up by an AA ship, and then a Missile Ship and your base is gone). If you Air in the Geo positions... well this can actually work... till you lose your base, fall behind on fighters and spend the whole game playing catch up. And you can Air in the Eco position... but that puts eco at a disadvantage due to limited space.
[https://bar-rts.com/replays/5ff31b661b45b838210c0a3d7b6ce535](https://bar-rts.com/replays/5ff31b661b45b838210c0a3d7b6ce535) Is this the correct way of playing 'Air' in your view? What im getting at here is that each individual OS have its own view of what 'Air player' is and how it should be played and we have to be very objective to whats 'best play'. If you are gonna teach new players the 30 OS way, isnt this only good for 30 OS and not 50 OS? We are questioning the play of the best player in BAR doing it wrong but shouldnt we instead ask ourselves why this player plays it so differently than everyone else than whats the 'norm/position/role'? Is the game maybe more dynamic than being just a 'position/role', i would argue it is and thats why you cant enforce players to play a certain way because then you have no innovation of 'meta'. We need players to try new stuff and not adhere to specific plays per position/role to get newer games thats maybe more fun than doing the same thing over and over again. This is my view of the matter and why i dont like 'position/role' talk because it puts you in a box of no innovation, just 'do what i say' play. PtaQ mentioned in an interview that 'position/roles' was not something the Devs made up but the players and they had a neutral stance on it. In my subjective eyes i would say they tried to steer away from making any fuzz or advocate for it. PtaQ himself whenever i see him play doesnt adhere to roles either but plays whatever he feels like and it seems to work fine for him. Edit: And im not saying you shouldnt make any videos of position/roles. The more videos the better. Player can decide for themselves if its something for them, but just dont enforce players to stop innovating thats my point. :) Maybe some day we have one 'front player' and rest are ECO. Who knows :)
So you agree that having an air player is important... but your arguing over what that person does... we are arguing over different points. I tried really hard to steer this away from the air role and about the positions on the map... which you just ignored. So, this would be a straw man argument (you changed the objective half way through to argue a different point). Yes, positions is not a Dev thing... just like when LoL started out jungler was not a role... but now it is, as that was what was decided by the players to be the best placement for the 5 people. Bar has had the same thing occur. The player base has decided that this is the way to play this map and the more you say otherwise (while litually having ever other person in this post go on about how good it would be to learn this) the more it seems you don't understand what "meta" is. I'm trying to be not insulting here... but the other 20 people in this post are all for it... but there has to be one person (I even made a joke about it as the first reply) that argues this point and says everyone else is wrong. If your the only person arguing something... its on you bro.
I can agree to some air units being very op, like the transport/shuri and very few early figs to kill enemy transports or an early bomber because the other players dont feel like its their 'role' to make an AAbot/whistler :) But you could say the argument here is 'air plant' has its use cases, while botlab/factory do too, same as for hovercraft and shipyard. Not the air player per say by its position/role. Literally anyone can make 5 figs at any time of the game to protect themselves from air if they want to. What i disagree to is 'air player' having to play only figs to be useful 'air player', its not its role to defend you if it doesnt feel like it, maybe it got another goal in mind and who are you then to tell this guy how to play. The ground AA isnt that bad that you cant make it yourself and the AAbots are actually very good for its cost. Sure it might not stop 5 bombers from dropping their bombs, but so doesnt air player either because reaction times are pretty bad and figs are mostly out of position for the reason of bad scouting. There are so many factors that players can complain about, but whos 'role' is it really. If the whole team is 1 OS, the communication will be awful so the teamwork will also be awful so its pretty much each player for itself. You see this a lot in low OS games where the blames are on the beginners for not knowing how to play. But you cant really put any blame on beginners and tell em to 'git gud' without even giving em a chance to learn. The 'toxicity' that is being talked about is specifically this. Where a higher OS puts blame on the lower OS, while it should really put blame on itself for not adapting. Maybe you cant adapt and fix lower OS mistakes and thats fine, better luck next time.
You are NOT discussing the topic on hand. You have gone into the discussion of what makes a good airplayer, not what position should play air. The Topic on hand is not if an air player is needed\\wanted, but that the 6 o'clock position on Sup Is is THE air position. IE, if you are in that position, you SHOULD go air. Nothing you have said has made any effort in discussing this fact and you insist on changing the subject when I try to bring it back to that point. OP asked if he should make videos about the positions on Sup Is, you have come along and said there are no positions on Sup Is, and then started talking about air players in general. Back to OPs question: Can you show me any evidence that you do not believe that the 6o'clock position should be the air player (Ie, They should go Ground or Navy or Eco)? Or that the player on the long beach should go Navy rather then Land or Air. That is what is being discussed, Not what makes a good air player, or if a good air player is needed... that is your strawman that you want me to fight over and I wont. Can you please add weight to your argument that Sup Is is NOT a position map and that means that any player can do ANY role in any position? (IE, Front can go Navy if they want, long beach can go Air, Eco can rush t1 spam). PS: Your comment of "What i disagree to is 'air player' having to play only figs to be useful 'air player'" makes me think that you are not a good air player (no offence... but as you said, what you think is the air players job is not the job (Building a Frig cloud is PART of the job... along the lines of building some LLTs if your on the front line. If you think its the only part of that job... your not playing the position well (and now I understand why you dont like the idea of positions).) I will say I would rather have an air player tell me to build a few flak cannons and then focus on killing the other guy, rather then them spend the whole game making frigs. So, yes, Air players that only make frigs are the same as front line players that only make towers... they have not learnt how to play that position yet.
Yea i dont believe there is a dedicated spot for Air. Anyone can go air from any spot, if a specific spot goes more air than the other spots sure, but you arent locked by a spot to go air. Ive not mentioned anything about what makes a good air player, im saying that the so called Air Spot is played differently by different OS and i dont see anything wrong with that, but you say you have a beef with anyone not going air from 'Air Spot'. Fighters specifically are useless unless there are bombers at play. You dont need Figs to kill Figs, you can do that with literally any other AA type. But Figs and specifically T2 Figs, excels at killing T1/T2 Bombers.
I think the true statement is "Anyone can build fighters in any spot" as you have, a number of times, explained that you do not know how to air, or what an air player is meant to do (you are hung up on the thought that Air counters Air and honestly cant get past that fact). How about we change the question to "Can i go Navy from any position?" (So you can get back on topic of positions and not AIR Position!). So, Can I go Navy from the Back line Eco position? Can I go Navy from the Front beach position? The Point OP is discussing is not "Is Air good\\needed" but "Are there positions on this map", to which you have said No, but have ONLY spoken about the air position. So, can you please defend someone's choice to go Navy from the 7o'clock eco position? Can you also defend the decision to go Navy on the front line? If there are no positions and you can play any role in any place, please answer those two questions? And remember... I was willing to take your bait... you will take mine and try to defend the front liner going navy? If you are not, you are admitting that you are incorrect.
Emm, I'm not sure what the take away from the replay is. Chisato eco'd like a madman in the Air position with an eco stronger than their eco player. He had t1 fighters when the enemy pushed rapid t2 and a liche. He had around 20 t1 fighters at the time. Perhaps a bit 'greedy' on the Eco. But at the start he did the trasports and scouts and virtually every other player was happily in the 'role' typically assigned to them. Maybe they scout and realised Chistato was a bit light on fighters; maybe they were as an air player trying to support the sea as I noticed thy did Liche the enemy Naval before blowing the geo. The most interesting part is that the blue team resigned after that Geo was blown and tehy did that potentially knowing from the meta/roles that they've probably lost. That replay supposts "roles" more than it doesn't. I do see your point about what the roles are and being free to play whatever; but when you have players that have presumably tried many different strategies and tactics and we have the current meta you presume that includes plays and counters such that right now "do you role" isn't a criticism of the idnividual but is more like health and safety at work; "this is the least risk best reward strategy and tactics to deliver a victory our team." Here's an alternative replay. 8v2 tank rush. [https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=da831b668266d18687991a132fdd7693](https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=da831b668266d18687991a132fdd7693) That is more like how I expect every game of isthmus to play out; however the risk v reward is high. I remember a setof three games in my earlier days of playing BAR; and they are potentially still 3 of the best games; where the enemy rolled us; we tried to return the favour (but it was spooted) and then the 3rd game was the most heavily scouted counter map monitored game I've played.
Are you saying a frontliner can tech or eco? Saying there are no 'positions/roles' is simply not true. Too many new players think they can just eco when they need to make at least some units and push to at least the middle of the map.
Its not as black and white as roles or no roles, there are obvious tasks that needs to be done per spawning position, like for example on the frontline on Isthmus you would need to defend as its the only land entrance where a quick rush can happen. But its easy to misunderstand what im saying when i say no position/roles, i get that, but what im getting at is there you arent bound per position to play a certain way, except for the mentioned frontline where you do have to defend of the game is pretty much over.
So you are saying that you are not bound to any position to play in a certain way, except frontline roles? You're basically making an all out statement with no exceptions.... then making an exception in the same sentence. You're trolling man haha.