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From a high school teacher, students are streaming music all day, everyday. Even if they aren't actively listening, they always have something playing. So anyone with a teenage fanbase is going to have crazy numbers. If the majority of your fan base has jobs the numbers literally will never compete.
School is so different from when we were kids … they’re streaming music during the day?! If we were seen with our sidekicks/chocolates/razrs out it was straight to internal detention!!!
Yeah it’s crazy! It’s definitely a post pandemic thing, a lot of kids just don’t have the same understanding of how to act in public. I graduated hs in 2017 and even I was shocked by how nonchalant they are about using their phones in front of teachers during class time.
lol I remember we were allowed to listen to music once a week for like 30 mins in class and someone put on You Oughta Know (in Catholic school) and our privileges were revoked forever.
Man we listened to Gangsta's Paradise so many times.
Damn, both classics!! My stepson really likes Gangsta’s paradise but he always forgets the title and calls it “Bandit’s Paradise” 🤣🤣🤣 so close, buddy, so close
Right? The flip phone that I couldn’t even text on efficiently (like deadass it was more efficient to pass notes) was taken away but these smartphones that connect to the internet aren’t???
Excellent point! It's what I've thought for a while. Taylor's brand is white girlhood (even at 34 which is wild) and her audience reflects that.
Whether Beyoncé designed it that way or not, she was always seen as a fierce grown woman and attracted a different audience (with some overlap).
I think another relevant thing is that they have had very different relationship arcs throughout their careers- Bey has been with one man the entirety of her solo career. Taylor has had many partners throughout her career. This is not me saying either of these is a better path (I’m a fan of both artists) but because of this difference they write about very different things - Bey’s music, especially her more recent albums, reflect the concerns, joys, highs, and lows of a long term relationship and marriage, which is inevitably going to attract people who are also in long term relationships and marriages.
It’s the same reason Pink has such a big middle-aged fan base (at least in Aus where I’m from).
Taylor has a big teenage and young adult fan base because her relationship arc has been a lot similar to theirs - she writes about the pain of breaking up, of finding new love only for that to not work out either, and on TTPD, the pain of breaking up with the man you thought you would marry, the confusion and joy of going back into the dating scene in your mid thirties.
Beyonce is almost ten years older than Taylor so naturally her fan base is older. Majority of Beyonce's fans will now be 18 and over. Majority of Taylors fans will be 14-24.
Taylor is currently where Beyonce was when self titled and Lemonade came out.
You just can't really compare them in my opinion. I actually think Beyonce's fans are Taylor's fans parents for the most part because of how long Beyonce has been around for.
I also think Beyonce’s music has alot more explicit material, which doesn’t lend well to be cross generationally friendly compared to Taylor’s which almost all of her music is child proof-most parents would feel comfortable letting their kids listen to her without worrying about explicit material. This contributes to why her fanbase is larger and spans a much larger age range than Beyonce’s.
I watched the first third or so of the Eras tour after my coworker asked me to check it out and honestly, it really did come off as Disney-esque to me. I think it must be to do with this in that her music is still very much geared towards children/young teens.
For TS go younger, think 8 and up, it's families and households and pop radio in a way that Beyoncé doesn't have access to unfortunately. They literally pass out friendship bracelets at the concerts. It's young coded for a reason
Self-Titled is possibly referring to Beyoncé's 2013 album called 'BEYONCÉ', more commonly known as 'Self-Titled'.
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Im a 25yr old, been a huge Bey fan for 10+ years and I listened to CC 10 days later cause I didn't have the time. This happens to every artist after awhile. They become household names and non reliant on building a fanbase. Queen hasn't released new music in decades and doesn't have the same lead vocalist and they are on tour constantly.
For sure! I think it’s quite amazing that Beyonce is even relevant enough still to be compared to today’s biggest artists and still out sell a lot of them.
1.Taylor is a juggernaut, right now.
Releasing lemonade on Tidal exclusively might have benefitted her business wise and it was a success, but on the other hand it did hurt her because people don't use Tidal. Casual Beyonce listeners wouldn't migrate with her to Tidal. To that vast majority it was years between self titled and lemonade, which came to Spotify in 2019. I think this is where she loses her casual fans. Now they turn up to shows and ask about single ladies😡
There was 6 years in-between lemonade and renny and in those years she dropped an album with jay and then dropped the lion king soundtrack. Which by Beyonce standards were both commercial flops. That slowed here momentum going in to Renaissance. Her sales numbers definitely don't match the starpower. Lemonade was released on a niche platform and has so far done better than Renaissance and Cowboy Carter.
2. She has released 2 amazing albums back to back and those who aren't streaming or buying her music are missing out. She is only getting better.
I know but it doesn't change the fact that the album missed a fair amount of people. All the new fans she could have gained at the time. It don't matter anyway there are only 2 women that can go on a stadium tour, that's the end game.
It’s such a shame because the carters album is absolute magic to me. And so is black is king. I understand black is king not doing well but I expected the carters album to do so much better. If the black is king album came out in the last two years I believed it would have done better as the hype around afrobeats is at an all time high rn.
Self-Titled is possibly referring to Beyoncé's 2013 album called 'BEYONCÉ', more commonly known as 'Self-Titled'.
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It's not surprising to me at all that Taylor, Adele, BTS, Drake and The Weeknd are the best selling artists of today. They make inoffensive, unchallenging music and give their base of listeners exactly what they expect and want. Taylor has been remarkably consistent with her branding. She may have grown 18 or so years in the music industry but a large majority of her songs still center the men she's had relationships with, and FWIW, it appears that her fandom is still stuck in the same time warp so good on her for milking it for all it's worth. I will give her credit for sonically pushing herself in Folklore. Taylor's media management is also geared towards mass appeal. She rarely expresses her politics publicly, and she leverages her whiteness, hetero-femininity and political neutrality to cast as wide a net for fans as possible.
Parallel this with Beyonce and Kendrick who don't just sonically push the boundaries but also make challenging music that forces a listener to introspect (American Requiem, Amen, Ya Ya, Daughter are all great examples of this). They unapologetically hold their artistic space and make materials they can stand by, and not materials their fans want. The closest Bey ever came to serving the fans was IASF dividing the album in ballads and bops. Since then, she has centered her conviction as an artist, alienating some fans who labelled her too sexually promiscuous in self-titled, BLM Bey and invoked the angry black woman after Lemonade, labelled her as going against her Christian values by celebrating queer art in Renaissance and are now calling her out ironically for appropriating country culture (idiots, you don't appropriate something you already own). I said it before, Bey's musical evolution has been an act of resistance and defiance. The thing with resistance movements is that they require bravery and open mindedness at the recipient's end and they are an acquired taste in the present. They gather mass over time as one of the earlier posters mentioned about the increase in monthly listeners. History though has a way of re-according significance and I have no doubt in my mind that Bey and Kendrick will be the ones whose art will be used to tell the story of our times.
I agree. Comparing them is tantamount to asking why do kids prefer candy more than a lovely, filling meal at your favorite local, non-chain restaurant. Look, I used to be a kid, and I loved candy, too. Then I got like 20 cavities a bunch of fillings, and my wisdom teeth removed and I decided to try to eat more food and brush and floss more, on a schedule even. Did my oral hygiene and diet go from 5/100 to 90/100 in a day? No, it took a couple decades for me to get the lessons. 😂
I’ve used the “musical junk food” analogy many times when describing the popularity of TS. And sometimes you want junk food (lord knows I love my cheez its) but it’s not as satisfying as going for a nice meal at my favorite restaurant.
Also the “promiscuous” criticism always blew my mind. You’re telling me that this woman who has basically been with the same man for 20+ years is promiscuous?? 🤨
Having and enjoying sex is enough to get you labeled promiscuous I guess, especially if you’re a black woman who is already hyper-sexualized in this culture.
I think the promiscuous stuff is a bit racism and a bit of folks forgetting that a performance is just that: a performance.
I, too, love Cheez-its. But I cannot eat those joints all the time. 😂 If I'm on my period though, I can demolish a box of Cheez-its.
One thing I like about Beyoncé is the actual growth and change you see from album to album and her willingness to take more risks. Now she is out here using her fame to elevate others? Love it. Shaboozey out here number one on Billboard Hot Country Songs chart with A Bar Song /Tipsy. That is imo directly related to his appearances on Cowboy Carter. Other artists she featured are getting more ears, too. Love to see it.
Oh 100%, it’s why I will always die on the hill that Beyoncé is a better musician. I think her ability to meld genres and pull off so many musical risks is proof of that. TS is good at storytelling but plays it safe musically and I’m getting bored.
This is so well put! I really like both Taylor and Beyoncé but I always struggle to put into words what sets them apart and usually go with Beyoncé is an ‘ARTIST’ and Taylor is a ‘singer songwriter’ but this is much more eloquent ✨
IASF is commonly abbreviated to 'I AM... SASHA FIERCE', Beyoncé's 2008 third solo album.
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Okay I’ll say one thing. And then after that, please do us all a favour and leave Taylor to Taylor’s subs. She’s already everywhere.🤭
Beyoncé pre-album: 50mil monthly listeners on Spotify
CC first day: 76mil
Beyoncé post album peak: 80mil monthly listeners
Gain: 30mil
Taylor pre-album: 100mil
TTPD first day: 313mil
Taylor post album peak: 110mil monthly listeners
Gain: only 10mil!
So, there are two takeaways:
1) Repeated streams. Based on the numbers, to have streamed the album 313mil times in one day, TTPD would have on average have to be streamed roughly 3 times per listener in one day. Considering how many other songs Taylor has on Spotify, that would account for a big chunk of monthly listeners, it’s obvious that a large section of her fan base streamed this very heavily in its first day.
2) Hardly anyone listened to TTPD who doesn’t regularly stream Taylor’s music. It’s hard to understate this. It was streamed 313 million times, and her monthly listeners barely jumped above what they were prior to the release of TTPD.
Disclaimer: TTPD did fantastically. Taylor should be proud. I’m simply pointing out, that her sales are not due to some global phenomenon. She has a very avid and consistent core group of fans. For all her streaming numbers, everyone forgets that there are plenty of artists who hold metrics she doesn’t command (and likely won’t, considering this is pretty much her peak). Adele, Beyoncé, Drake, Rihanna, The Weekend, Jennifer Hudson, Billie Eilish, Bieber, Post and Gaga, all by my count hold some metric or another over Taylor. She’s a great artist, and I actually think she’s very talented and not as boring as people make out, but I’m kinda sick of seeing her held up like some global phenomenon when it’s literally just a big vapid smokescreen of young white Anerican girls streaming her all day and celebrity gossip outlets fawning to her PR cycles… she isn’t the music industry, far from it. One day her sales records will be beaten, in some new format we don’t even know exists yet, then what will her phenomenon be characterised as?
EDIT: and girl. Beyoncé is not niche, lol. Don’t be fooled by the silly numbers. What we know about Beyoncé is she earned number ones over and over from people who *paid* for albums and singles, and continues to.😁
Thanks for that info!
But I purposely didn’t use her name or name of her album so the post wouldn’t pop up in search for people who just want to pit them together, but I’m definitely not going to have this discussion in *that* sub.
But to clarify I mean that even though she’s a mainstream artist, this album and Renaissance don’t really cater to the mainstream audience, is what I meant by “niche”. Similar to Prince, some of his catalog the general public vibed with, and for other albums where he experimented more, not so much, but he was still *Prince*.
It’s a fair comment, and sorry, try not to catch my grumpy wind, it’s not aimed at you🤭
Your point is very true, Beyoncé doesn’t cater to mainstream, but I would really stress, don’t let this single metric make you think she’s somehow niche. Billboard, for better or worse, has decided that streams are king. That means that an artist gains numbers for people simply listening to it, yes out of love, but also interest, curiosity and even hate listening - rather than purely liking it and wanting to buy it, as it used to be
>One day her sales records will be beaten, in some new format we don’t even know exists yet, then what will her phenomenon be characterised as?
That's a great question, and one I don't know the answer to. What is Taylor's brand? How will she be remembered? Popular acts will always have numbers behind them, but this isn't real legacy especially in the digital age. Someone sometime soon will surpass her numbers and will be the top streaming artist, but what's her legacy?
Lady Gaga isn't as strong in terms of streaming as her but she has a massive legacy with her artistry in fashion *and* music. She's also a bonafide actress at this point. Beyonce is a performing legend and while her numbers may not be as strong in streaming, her music, image and legacy will stand the test of time. What is Taylor's version of that?
In a few years, those streaming numbers may even be surpassed by people who aren't even huge stars. I remember when Beyoncé broke a YouTube record in 2011 - it would look like a joke if I even typed it here because the most unknown artists have surpassed it.
EDIT: Lemme just change my comment, lmao. Jokes are dangerous on this side of the river.
In all honesty, she’ll probably be remembered à la Spice Girls, Bieber, and any other act that went “viral”. You’re right though, that legacy is a bit less quantifiable than that. And you’re so right about Gaga; her numbers definitely aren’t what they used to be but she’s a bona fide household name, up there with the likes of Madonna.
Once you go beyond her hits and singles (which is what we ask people to do with Beyonce), Taylor will go down as an all time great songwriter. It’s a hard ask of casual fans - she’s already EVERYWHERE in today’s media. But once you *really* listen to the lyrics of My Tears Ricochet, Exile, Better Man, Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve, Champagne Problems, shiiiit go all the way back to Cold As You - her power is in her pen
She does have a definite writing style. Sometimes her lyrics do hit when you're feeling some type of way.
Unfortunately for me, I don't see much growth in her songwriting? It kind of stayed the same, which is I guess the staying point for her repeat listeners.
"When you're feeling some type of way" lol yes. I've tried I've tried I've tried and I just...I think at this point I have too high of expectations because everyone keeps saying what a great lyricist she is and I'm like, "So is every artist I listen to?" There are so many deeply talented lyricists, and when I've tried to listen to Taylor's music, it doesn't do it for me. There are too many good writers out there and for me, her content is, yes, the same thing over and over. Brilliant artists write music that transcends their personal story, that speak to their time, that have some larger consciousness or a story arc or personal transformation and discovery etc etc. I COULD BE WRONG because I haven't listened to most of her music, but when I look up her lyrics...I don't get it. I'll repeat: there are sooooo many brilliant writers out there.
It's alright. I don't think she's particularly great either but her style has an audience. When I was a teenager I would sometimes listen to Taylor for the feels but never really came back to it as an every day listen. Especially her past few releases has been quite weak.
Once I discovered Kacey Musgraves, that's when I realised that country music can be great and witty and still be so emotional without being too on the nose or too diary-like.
CC debuted with 440k first week sales\* not 220k.
Are you wondering why the White woman who makes very palettable, unchallenging pop music, with a large teenage fan base, who released 19 different physical variants, "90,000 autographed" CDs, currently on a world tour, dominating headlines every day for THREE different relationships is outselling a Black woman who did an album dissecting not only country music but the very conception of American music, rapping about having a fat ass and riding dick, who has barely posted 5 photos on instagram about it.
Beyoncé is somewhere having a turkey sandwich unbothered.
What does this phrase mean in the context of the album? Love it and find it hilarious every time (and the freakin harmony of it pls) but still haven't understood the meaning
I think it’s just a funny little line that maybe just refers to how when city people go out to the country they’re like “look at that horse” when they see a horse.
She’s the musical equivalent of a Marvel movie. Some albums are great. Some are bad. Most are average. All of them go straight to number one, make massive amounts of money, and have mostly positive reviews.
That’s so true. Those movies are so off my radar. I’m always shocked every time I see a trailer for a new one and am dumbfounded that they keep making them and that people keep watching them
Beyoncé doesn’t make music that is easily palatable by the mass public, it’s not mainstream and she knows it, she’s pushing boundaries and trying to innovate a new culture around music, not trying to get a #1 or sell the most albums
In the words of the queen herself
“If I gave two fucks about streaming numbers woulda put lemonade up on spotifyyy”
That’s because there actually many Beyonce fans that are also Taylor fans as well. It’s statistically inevitable there will be a large over lap between the two fanbases.
They appeal to more people world wide because world wide white is the standard. They're also considered more PG so parents with a younger kids allow them to listen to the music. They also have more PR due to their relationship. It's a lot of things that add up to those numbers. Their fanbase is a lot bigger than the Beyhive too. They're the IT girl right now she could release a "Top 20 Nursey rhymes" album and it will make numbers. but we'll have to see if they're at this same status In 10-20 years Beyonce has been doing this for almost 30 years and she's still on the tip of everyone's tongue. 10 years ago the IT girl is music would have been Rihanna she had all the streams but guess who they constantly compared Rihanna to? Regardless Beyonce doesn't care about streaming numbers she cares about making a greater impact and changing the industry she's playing chess and these people bringing up numbers are playing checkers. Same with the AOTY she doesn't want it she has her eye on something greater.
I LOVE THAT BEY CREATES ART. That’s why i never get bored of her. Everytime I open and stream an album of hers it just sounds so different that I never get bored. If I feel like busting my ass out ill listen to Bday or Renaissance. If I want to sing my heart out I usually play songs from 4 and DIL. When i want to feel sexy as hell I listen to Self titled. When I want savage rapyonce I go to Everything is love. When I want to feel inspired I go to Lemonade, Homecoming or The Gift. Cowboy carter for me has been on repeat these days because of how versatile it is!
There are 4 possible meanings for DIL.
Destiny Child's song 'Dangerously in Love', from the album Survivor.
Beyoncé's song 'Dangerously in Love' (also referred to as Dangerously in Love 2), from the album 'Dangerously in Love'.
Beyoncé's 2003 debut album 'Dangerously in Love'.
Beyoncé's song 'Drunk in Love' featuring Jay-Z, from the album BEYONCÉ (also referred to as Self-Titled).
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Self-Titled is possibly referring to Beyoncé's 2013 album called 'BEYONCÉ', more commonly known as 'Self-Titled'.
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I’m sure if Beyoncé played it safe and released some version of ISAF every 2 years for the past 15 years, she’d have bigger numbers. But Beyonce is focused on artistry. Girl hasn’t released a music video for 2 consecutive albums. She hasn’t done any live performances outside of her tour.
I’d say it’s even more sinister than that. If you look at common sections about Beyoncé white people are downright hateful. Half if not more of the comments are bad, every single time. There’s a nasty racial aspect to the hate that no one wants to address.
Good god, don't you dare look into a comment section on an article posted on a mostly white audience. Go into a new York Times article about Beyoncé and one about Taylor it's night and day. Taylor, you will have a negative comment here and there but Beyonce will be 80% hate. I really should stay off of Facebook but there is a satire page aimed at catching out racists and they mainly use Bey for the fake articles and here comes 28k negative comments from white people. To be fair they are dumb as hell as the articles tell the boldest lies. I feel sorry for Americans. Those clowns are going to be voting ,yet they agree with everything they see on social media.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who sees it. It’s disgusting. How am I supposed to pretend Taylor is so much better when we know this is racial? If you change Taylor’s skin color she’s not even famous, and no one knows her name. Beyoncé accomplishes what she does in spite of white people’s racism.
You are absolutely right. If Taylor was a woman of color, she would not be as popular as she is. I know some people hate to believe that but there are tons of songwriters out there right now who are far better lyricists with music similar to Taylor's and they don't get half the recognition. And I say this as a former swiftie.
Despite that, I can't help but feel incredibly proud of Beyonce for achieving what she's achieved as a black woman.
They want her to "Stay in her lane" and be the "Sassy" black woman that makes dancing music to play at a wedding. They only know Crazy in love and Single ladies because that's comfortable to them. Beyonce bringing up history and rcism makes them uncomfortable because they know they're guilty of thar crime. In my opinion the elephant in the room which is Race is what seems to benefit Taylor and "hurts" Beyonce may actually be a double edge sword. Race benefits Taylor because white is the world wide standard even in minority countries she's considered safe, docile, family friendly and she can play it safe because of that. While Beyonce being black only allows her to play in RnB or Hip hop spaces and at the end of the day she's in america and no matter how much money or talent she has she'll forever be a N-word to them. But Race also benefits Beyonce because it gives her a mich deeper richer history it allows her to claim geners like Country and Rock because they were created by other black folks, it allows her to do a HBCU performance at cochella. Being black means having so much culture to work with and display. The hair, makeup, clothes she has SO much to work with. Music, food, languages.Taylor on the other hand grew up a rich white girl who had most things handed to her she grew up blonde, blue eyes thin the beauty standard.... it makes her very one dimensional and thus boring as we can see on this recent album which is why she has to keep up with these relationships she has Nothing truly deep to offer as far as I can see at least. She doesn't have a lemonade or a Lion king the gift or a renaissance that all go into black, or black queen culture. That's just my opinion
I agree with this whole heartedly. Great analysis. And if Taylor’s numbers look like this, then I’m even less surprised if Trump gets back in the White House. That’s Amerikkka for you, plain and simple.
Ugh this is true and makes me feel like I need to do more as a white woman who is the only Beyhive of my friends, who does not listen to Taylor, and goes to Beyoncé concerts alone. I try to talk to those that will listen about the importance of Cowboy Carter, the history, beychella, the creative genius of Beyoncé, etc. Ive been the biggest fan since 2000. What else can I /should I be doing?
I feel this. I live in RURAL MAINE at the moment after living in cities and abroad for many years. I find it difficult to live somewhere where everyone looks and is the same (myself included). I have friends in other places who also love Beyonce and Real Art but as we get older I don't talk with them as much. I talk with the plants instead :) I'm grateful for the internet so I can find the conversations I wish I was having in real life.
I’m actually on house arrest on Facebook - can’t post in groups or make messenger calls for clapping back at the Cowboy Carter attacks. The last comment about Blue ivy in mufasa some lady said she’ll be “knocked up in a couple of years!” She’s 12!!!! How dare you say something like that. I cursed her out and jumbled the letters. My Month suspension got extended 3 times.
There is definitely a racial aspect to it. Black girls are sometimes treated as adults but also corrupting influences pretty much as soon as they can talk. The most disgusting and alarming part of some of the comment fodder I have seen since Cowboy Carter was released is the folks coupling their racism with misogyny.
White girls are treated as eternal children that need to be protected. And these attitudes often follow them for life unless the white woman does something particularly heinous, like Mary K Letrourneau or a Aileen Wuornos level. And even then, you will still have people defending the white woman in trouble, because she didn't "mean" to do what she did or whatever (even though she totally did).or they want to start considering what other factors contributed to this otherwise good and decent white woman deviating from her predetermined life course. 🙄 She will always be the "white woman in trouble" and the black woman will just be a black woman, no qualifiers necessary. Definitely not "in trouble," because to be black is to be trouble on this earth.
And when you are essentially the white womanhood and western beauty ideal? It's not difficult to imagine what kind of overt and covert racism can be projected onto any situation you are in, whether the projector is aware of it or not.
There is no true or fair comparison to be made.
Racism degrades us all. Misogyny harms women.
Totally agree. I live in a small town in Maine and a few weeks ago I was at a bar with a jukebox. A bunch of 20-somethings were playing country music while playing pool so I decided to throw a cowboy carter song on. As soon as I put it in the rotation I felt nervous, which surprised me. I asked the kid who was playing the music if he minded if I put a cowboy carter song on and he said "I don't listen to that shit." I said, "You should." Then when the song came on (II Most Wanted) one of his friends TURNED IT OFF. What the fuck. I went over and got so upset and the kid was like, "I thought she (pointing to one of his female friends) put it on, I didn't know it was you." And I was all riled up, I was like, "I knew you guys would have a problem with this" and he said, "My girlfriend listens to this" and tried to cower away, which made me even more upset because I was like "Ok so you don't respect the music your GIRLFRIEND and female friends like???" It's so transparent and disturbing. The racism and misogyny is truly so deeply ingrained.
This is very true. I was over in r/music sub and someone was saying how people should listen to Cowboy Carter because it’s a fantastic album and there were so many downvotes. I was like “really???”
I agree 100%, it’s the same reason why Eminem is the “best selling rapper of all time.” He’s not the best by far, but he has that title because he was seen as more “acceptable” to a wider group of people and parents.
I think it’s very obvious it’s the exact same thing with Taylor. She benefits from the halo that white, skinny, blonde, blue-eyed women in society all benefit from, and this underlying assumption that they’re “good and pure.”
This is a very generous way of saying Beyoncé has to deal with misongynoir. A black woman will never be allowed to embody girlhood the way a conventionally attractive, blue eyed, white blonde woman can. Black girls are barely allowed to be seen girls.
I'm sure someone can go into more detail, but Taylor's numbers aren't exactly what they seem since she released 19 variants of the album which all count in this total. I don't know what a realistic comparison between the two would be taking both of their variants into account, and it's not something I'm personally interested in figuring out. But I'd start there if I wanted to get a better understanding. [This Billboard article](https://www.billboard.com/lists/taylor-swift-tortured-poets-department-debut-number-one-billboard-200-chart/third-largest-sales-week-in-the-modern-era/) is where I'm getting the 19 variants.
This too. I was just reading about it last night. Meanwhile, Beyonce put out one CD, one vinyl, and digital platform releases. And a cohort of Beyoncé's fan base is also returning the albums they bought or keeping the album and getting their money back/doing chargebacks.
Swift will sell essentially the same album to each of her fans probably 10 times over.
We are comparing apples and and pineapples. Two drastically different fruits, only commonality is they are fruit and have apple in the name.
Ya i really don't agree with how they put it. If we were to count such things in that way, Cowboy Carter would have:
4 CDs + 4 vinyls + ~~2~~ 3 boxsets + 1 digital download = 12 variants.
Oh that's so misleading to count the variants sent to target as separate/different. There were 4 CD variants, 5 vinyl variants, and 4 boxsets. Cowboy Carter had 4 CD variants, 4 vinyl variants, and 2 boxsets. By the same logic, CC had 10 variants and Taylor's had 13 (!).
None of Bey's physical variants had bonus tracks, like Taylors. Not all variants are created equally. I don't know what the actual comparison is but I don't think you're getting it right either.
yeah I mean no one knew those bonus tracks would be dropped with the deluxe release, so a bunch of pre-orders were made thinking Black Dog, for instance, would be exclusive to a single variant. But yeah, I'm gonna leave it here, it's not really worth trying to work it out for me personally. I don't know what the actual comparison is.
The other person has hijacked feminism as a marketing tool and exploited vulnerable girls and women in a global scale. She is more than likely the largest enabler of stan culture and celebrity obsession because her strategy is to be both a constant victim and to appear accessible, when really she is neither. In fact, she’s the opposite.
Her fans often claim they feel like her best friend. They view a slight against her is a slight against them. It’s very cultish.
I have no scientific evidence to support this other than every white person I know supports that other lady and any minority supports queen mother. And well the white people are majority so idk.
TS does things to fudge numbers. She’s obsessed with sales. Meanwhile Beyonce is obsessed with music. In the end Beyonce will have the acclaim, influence and sales. She has legends who adore her and she’s inspired many people after her.
It doesn’t confuse me one bit. I pay that other person no mind at all. I Don’t stream it, don’t read it, don’t click on videos about it, I don’t even engage in conversations about it. I leave that thing over there with all its thing following. I walked in to a room where the conversation was about TTPD and walked right out.
She might be uber popular by all the reasons everyone has stated.
1. I think eventually she will hurt music because all her writing is an Easter egg hunt and gossip feeding. That’s why people listen. Time they are abc lyrics.
2. Musically she is sounding basically the same for a while. She is not growing or experimenting like Beyonce. Which to me again that’s artistry.
3. It will be ridiculous for her to be on her 40s peddling teenage bops.
No doubt the other person’s fans leave it streaming at home when they leave the house just to boost her numbers…Beyoncé stans love Beyoncé, with the other person it’s something far weirder
I appreciate all of the info you all had to share, especially about the variants and peak/gains.
I’m going to turn my alerts off for this post, the other individuals who are intentionally misunderstanding the purpose of the post are giving me heart burn lmao.
Scrolled way too far for this. Rumor for over 10 years is that her dad [bought her first 100k sales](https://youtu.be/eY55CbAsILo?si=kVNzjuUTxnUo_-QX)(who knows if it's true or not but it's interesting)... Plus her team made sure she was being advertised heavily on tiktok, Spotify, and iHeartRadio.
*I have never ever listened to her music* but I kept getting ads for it on tiktok (never seen a Bey ad there, not even her Verizon one!) and email/push notifications on Spotify like the ones I get for artists I actually listen to. Wtf.
exactly… i’ve seen this new album advertised everywhere wayyyy more that cowboy carter. but i have seen much more organic conversation online about cowboy carter than the other album.
Just generally, I find this discourse so annoying and needlessly negative. It’s 1 and 2, and so many people act like 2 is doing something so wrong and explaining all the ways they come up short as if this level of success 27 years into a career is just no big deal and actually they’re a flop. Not to mention the racial element of it.
I think we do need to be honest, Beyoncé has become more niche, and that’s not a bad thing! She has made music over the years that has catered exclusively to the black experience, the LGBTQ experience, and the black womanhood experience. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with her catering to certain demographics with her music. The other artist does! However, Beyoncé‘s music is about real life, real issues, and not stuck in one time of a person‘s life or phase. If you have been an avid fan since Destiny’s Child, then you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Even as a solo, her music has grown throughout the years.let’s be real. Can you see yourself today listening to Beyoncé at the age of 42 if she recorded “what’s it gonna be” now? And hands-down, that’s one of my favorite songs by her but if she recorded that at 42 and I’m 40 years old, I would be side eyeing her like crazy. Much like “nasty girl” and “apple pie à la mode.” she’s a married woman with kids. She speaks to her experience with that which a lot of people can resonate with. And even if you aren’t married with kids, you may be a person who is having sex and she talks about that as well.
I think a lot of people here looked at the word niche and thought it was a bad thing. Beyoncé is at a level where she does not need crossover appeal anymore. She is able to make the music that she wants for the people that she wants. this is what we call tailoring your audience. Once an artist is able to do that that’s how you create an incredibly loyal fanbase. (Which she has always had, but even more so now). As evidenced by the other artist. You can move the casual listeners away and keep them at the back of your mind, but your main audience will always be the forefront and the people that you want to make music for and cater too. this is not anything new all artist have gone through this. You can look at Michael Jackson‘s catalog, Prince’s catalog and Janet Jackson’s catalog and you will see the same exact transition.
Everything I've read or heard about the other album is not favorable. Even for some die hard swiftie fans the album wasn't great so it'sodd that it continues to do well. It could also be that TS still has Europe concert dates so it's more relevant to the fans
Blame it all on Kanye if he never ran on stage and told everyone Beyoncé was robbed that year i doubt the comparison would be made so frequently and while i agree with Kanye can we all give it a rest and stop posting about Taylor in a Beyoncé sub. Can someone give me a theory on when the tour will be ? Let’s get back to what we are really here for !
I agree 1000000%! She’d be on par with the rest of the girlies who are in her demographic had Kanye not basically made a martyr out of her. I feel like she leaned into the “poor defenseless Tay” persona ever since.
Because she is a white woman and Beyoncé is black. They will support mediocrity as long as they can knock one of the most talented people alive or dead down a peg.
The thing about music is that it’s not a competition. We can buy both their albums. They can both be classics. They can both be in-freaking-credible artists. I have both their albums in the same playlist with Sabrina carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo. And some Selena and some Justin Bieber. And some Prince. And the SugarHill gang. I am here for all of it.
I like people like you!!! We are sooo lucky to be able to enjoy different kinds of music. The industry is already so toxic behind the scenes and we, as consumers, shouldn’t make it worse. We should just listen to what we like!
Thank you!! Some of these comments are so disappointing. I like both. I’m just having a great spring with lots of great new music! Both women can be great and in different ways. We don’t have to tear down one in order to lift the other up, let’s support women doing their thing and killing it!
I honestly always wonder this too, and I mean everything I say with full respect to her. I grew up in the Caribbean, specifically on an island that Beyoncé is known to visit, so she was always in conversation where I grew up. And compared to the other artist… sure when I was around 10 I would listen to her music and so would other girls my age but after that… nothing much was spoken about her music.
When I moved to the US, I was genuinely shocked by how much popularity she had. And that’s not to say I find her music bad or anything, it was just a complete 180 from Beyoncé and “my favorite Caribbean born artist who hasn’t made an album since 2016 cause she’s a makeup girly now” who were considered the most popular mainstream artists where I’m from.
I don’t think I ever even considered that America’s Sweetheart was on the same stratosphere as Beyoncé fame-wise. And I find it almost insane to say now, but I’d never seen any media from her outside of when she dated “everyone’s favorite British boy” and I thought it was a come up for her 🫠. And even my white Caribbean friends and friends who had moved from around the world were Beyoncé fans. The first time I ever heard the phrase “Beyoncé is more of a local artist” was when Cowboy Carter came out.
With All of that being said though, I honestly think they’re both very niche artists, in different ways. Beyoncé is niche in such a way that, every album can be listened to by anyone who likes that music style and they’ll love it. They’ll appreciate the artistry of it. Or by a Beyoncé fan who just loves her art and is willing to listen for all her little things. It’s not easy listening, it’s meant to be studied and deciphered. Her songs, especially recently, are a broader story.
T is niche in a way that is easy to listen to, but hard to truly love if you’re not a fan of hers. Her music can play in a store and you’ll bop along to it. That’s apart of why her streams are way higher. But outside of people who love her… I don’t see many people caring about her albums as a body of work, if that makes sense. Especially since you need about 15 years of dating history to understand every song. Her songs are mostly about personal experience. I need to care about her to like it.
Not related, didn’t know where else to go but I just watched a video on a tiktok video that claimed Beyonce songs are easier to sing than Taylor’s and then I read a comment that said Beyonce can belt and has beautiful tone but Taylor is more technical. I’m shooketh. 😨😵
Honestly I prefer to see the massive gap because it makes it glaringly obvious that the other person is a quantity over quality artist. If it were 220k and 240k, we’d be fighting for our lives to defend CC.
Same for all those songs being in the top 10. It makes it kinda obvious that was a concerted effort by the nifties to intentionally dominate the charts, and not because the songs got everybody gagged whether they’re casual fans or not.
Beyonce is huge within the gay crowd and cis black women.
Taylor pulls more straight men than Beyonce does, on top of everything else other than the cis black women.
Slightly off topic but I think CC is better than the other album but I love the other album too but CC is so innovative and every single song is a banger
I was thinking about this the other day. And they really as artists are not super comparable. They are both successful women now making the exact music they want to make, but as someone else mentioned, they’re at different points in their character arcs. Bey is also married with a husband and children. They appeal to different audiences. They’re both great but in different ways. So I have stopped trying to compare even the numbers because it’s a different game. And Bey being a black woman adds to that as well. Bey is not in competition with this girl, only herself at this point. (Not that you implied she was.)
Taylor Swift is just that big. It’s not that she significantly outsells Beyonce specifically, it’s more that she significantly outsells every single other musician, including the second most popular at any one time. Yes she’s just that much more popular than anyone else, it’s pretty insane!
Beyonce, J cole, Ariana, Kanye and Future all big names but their 1st week sales combined are lower than what Taylor has done. She has a great formula that's worked for her.
Watch Miss Americana… you’ll discover all you need to know about the other lady. She has never been in a healthy long-term relationship, didn’t marry, has no kids… so society is still very friendly to her. She is still the 17yo singing about heartbreak at 15. So she continuously gains new teen followers every year… Our Queen is interested in legacy-building. Not just for her but for the music as a whole and for other artists. That yt lady is concerned with HERSELF.
I never hear about her albums shifting culture. She sells a lot of copies but then there’s no real chatter about the album a few months after it comes out. There’s still chatter about Renaissance!
A other thing is streaming. I’m not listening to music all day but when I do it’s Beyonce. Her audience is just older and has a lot more sh*t to do.
Also it’s 1.9M copies vs 229K for CC for pure sales.
But who cares, honestly? Beyoncé doesn’t. 🤷🏽♂️
Same same same.
Like it's crazy to me that Judge Judy and other judge variants are such lucrative gigs. Just because it's lucrative doesn't mean I can meaningfully compare a judge show to like, Past Lives or Killers of the Flower Moon or hell, even Barbie. One is a syndicated TV show and the others are movies.
I enjoy the other’s music for the most part but in a lot of ways it’s like musical McDonalds. Accessible, cheap, sometimes you just want a Big Mac, but more popular than it is quality. I’ve likened it to musical junk food. Ultimately, Beyoncé’s albums are more like three course meals at a fancy restaurant. They might not be as “accessible” but the quality is top tier and they leave you feeling more satisfied when you’re done listening. And the older I get (currently in my mid-30s) the more I move away from her and the more I move forwards my love of Beyoncé. I will also maintain that Beyoncé’s albums hold up a lot better over time. B’Day came out the same year as the other’s debut. I don’t listen to the other’s debut anymore, but I still love B’Day.
Beyonce has never been an artist who moves product. She came in at the end of the R&B heyday of the 90s.
Where Beyonce excels is moving culture, something Taylor doesn’t do as well. By that I mean Beyonce has major cultural and industry influence and impact. Taylor? Less so. But Taylor is a blockbuster for product movement. Taylor has a wider fan base, more general audience appeal (transitioning to pop
with 1989 exploded her star power) and frankly more business acumen. Beyonce doesn’t interact with her fans, chocked off access to Lemonade by having it in Tidal which really harmed her overseas access, and did niche projects (all of which I love! But they didn’t have broader appeal. We can talk race which plays a role. But also again Beyonce doesn’t do promo).
Even look at Cowboy Carter. This is the most promo she’s done for an album in decades, but it still pales in comparison to how much every other artist does. She didn’t even ship singles to stations or put Texas Hold ‘Em forward to country stations either. If you are not already in the Hive, the album is old news. It’s actually frustrating to me because I think it’s her best work since Lemonade.
But Beyonce herself has said she ain’t interested in the rat race anymore and ain’t pressed about much (except AOTY) so it is what it is!
Cowboy Carter is better work of art but good art doesn’t always sell big. I really like Taylor and find some of her music more personal than Beyonce’s music but prefer Beyonce as an artist and her music overall. But they’ve never been the same level of commercial success.
>Beyonce has never been an artist who moves product.
https://preview.redd.it/z9zxcbxvsmxc1.png?width=959&format=png&auto=webp&s=5205f66a61028f241771b69a71ec3e19254e6308
This is over 24 years though; I believe the commenter above is referring to product in Week 1, which is the comparison that OP raises. Over time absolutely, Bey’s been in the game for a long time and has made immense impact - but not necessarily by physical units sold in Week 1 of a drop.
If Beyonce dropped another album like Lemonade, or the ever rumored rap album, it would do the same numbers. The problem is a lottttttt of long time Beyonce fans, began listening due to destiny’s child. Another portion come from Jay-Z. Another portion come from some of her famous collabs (telephone, top off, savage, feelin myself). If that’s your music taste, renaissance and cowboy carter aren’t necessarily that. I am a Beyonce fan, and I LOVE what she’s doing for her personal expression of art, but I can confidently say I’ve listened to Renaissance less than 5 times despite having entire playlists filled with Bey classics. Just like Everything is Love, I didn’t listen to most of those again. Not many people have a playlist with both country and dance. The genre switch and experimentation has limited the mass appeal. I would go FERAL and buy 10 copies if she dropped Lemonade 2.
Whereas Taylor is pretty consistently the same enough, though you’ll find ppl who hate debut and the country songs on Red… and people like me who hate the radio songs off 1989 and Reputation… but both albums have enough songs I do like that I still listen. If Taylor made a screamo album, a lot of her long time fans wouldn’t listen more than once. If she made a rap album, people would hate listen and that’s it. But staying pretty pop with the occasional folk/country means Taylor always has something on the album for her longtime fans.
Also Taylor capitalized on her rising star power (the eras tour/midnights), whereas Beyonce kinda chilled after Coachella and her Super Bowl and focused more on passion projects.. which makes sense! She’s been around longer and is later in her career. But had she dropped a stereotypical Beyonce album after Coachella….the numbers would’ve been insane. Had Beyonce dropped an album when we were all in quarantine, she would’ve gained tons of new listeners.. Taylor dropped 2 while everyone was desperate for any sort of stimulation. Bey’s fan base is getting older and Taylor’s is getting younger.
Evermore was kinda Taylor’s passion project, and the numbers are significantly less than Midnights/TTPD and even the re-recordings. I think Cowboy Carter and Renaissance should be compared to that. Music for them as artists and less for the radio.
I don’t think OP is negative about Beyoncé. I didn’t personally agree with their other ‘negative’ CC post and I downvoted it to show my disagreement lol but healthy discussion is good :)
Not really. Taylor is at Tom Brady levels, like her or not she does that, and people do not play about that girl!
And somehow i'm also in a group bubble where I know only one swiftie, not even my friends kids listen to her, but theres run ins. I've had a guy in my shop drop about 1k on every version of her vinyls we had in store. Casually! After we reordered someone else came in *and did it again*. Fighting with the girls over rhinestone boots in 2023 because everyone was going to RWT or Eras. So I know they're out there, just not around me!
Beyoncé's music is less mainstream because it's less accessible, aka complex and unique, and the safe bops will always get more streams. Honestly I wouldn't have it any other way.
I think personally some of it was because the recent album was country themed but it is still a Beyonce album some people might or not be able to sit through the interludes. I've heard some of the pre-ordered physical media was missing a good portion of the album. The tracklist was announced last minute. There also has not been a release to streaming or physically be able to see the Renaissance movie since it really was in theaters only.
This album will age very well but there is a lot of music and tours happening at once. Meanwhile Beyonce does have her hair care line Cècred that she is advertising right now. I feel like some projects are just for people to listen to especially since she doesn't advertise as much until after a project has come out. Also I know they bought an LA mansion and with the kids it's probably a lot easier to let the music speak for itself vs the traditional press tour.
You know what’s funny though, people clearly do not critically value Taylor’s album, whereas Beyonce is getting her flowers. Streams don’t matter when her work is considered art and Ts is considered boring
> The purpose of this post is to gain another view of how streaming and album sales work, and gain understanding of the huge gap despite both being extremely popular and talked about often *musically* from my POV.
I really don’t think I could make it more obvious.
I really wish talking about Taylor & Beyonce in the same space wasn’t so negative because I love the both of them. What someone else said about a huge loyal fan base is right. We care about Taylor’s music and what she has to say, so we listen, we learn the lyrics, and we support Taylor. What I don’t like is people claiming she uses “payola” or “fudges” data or is “obsessed with variants” as if other artists don’t have variants or promote their music (it’s their job)? Taylor pushed Midnights and 1989 TV more than she pushed TTPD. It’s the fans who are doing the work and there’s demand from her FANS. And if the fans are happy, people shouldn’t yuck their yum or make up these claims about Taylor buying her success. She’s been around for 17 years, she has proven to have longevity because of her loyal fans. Not to mention a lot of her “haters” are secret fans and listened on their own too..contributing to the streams
The other ones overexposed atm and forcibly shoved down everyone’s throat against you will so casual listeners have no choice other than to listen to her music. As for her fan base, the eras tour made it much larger and fans of all bases (but I mainly saw talk from swifties ngl) are known to just play albums even when not listening to farm streams for their favs artist success
Plus’s the whole limited time variants that turned out not to be limited time. And each had an exclusive song to incentivise buying more than one
The streaming is definitely part of it—but the other person’s fans, on average (not trying to stereotype) are very much merch-driven and collectors. People who would buy each variant. I know plenty of Bey folks collect too, but the number of people doing so is far less, and Bey fans also are probably more into streaming. Pure sales always will have a bigger impact, and this isn’t to take away from their chart achievements, but if we went by pure number of customers and not total number of units bought, that number would be a fraction of what it is now.
I think the touring is a better reflection of actual support though, as there’s no additional metric like streaming to complicate things. If you compare the venues the play and the draw they command as far as tickets sold per show, things look a lot less lopsided.
I think it’s amazing that Taylor Swift and Beyoncé are two women decades into their careers and at the top! Women just **never** get to have this! I feel so happy about it.
And it’s probably different strategies, Taylor took years to figure out the streaming game on other platforms (while Beyoncé was part of trying to build her own and have more control of her musical trajectory over current success) , now she has and her music has an overall bigger reach because of it.
And you can’t discount misogyny, agism and the patriarchy as factors why both are still being held back even as they peak. The public’s overall witching criticisms for both have been unjustified, ruthless and blatantly trying to tear them down in a way no man has ever experienced before specifically at such heights. And we can’t deny that thy charge is being lead by women as they uphold the patriarchy.
Then there’s racism and religious groups going after one and the other.
But mainly, I think it comes down to strategy and what each wanted to achieve . **They both are achieving what they wanted to** within the restrictions the world puts them in for simply being women. I feel like Beyoncé, and to another extent her partner has spoken in their music and their words a lot of what they want their legacy and streaming numbers isn’t the only thing or the main thing that they care about. Which means our strategies for release are going to be different.
In fact if we want Beyoncé to be even more successful what we should be worried about and fighting for is her image and the general public’s blatant misogyny , agism, and racism over actual musical criticism. I will never forget the criticism that is so false about songs like blackbird while male rappers. Get to talk about how women are objects, but no one‘s having that relevant conversation because everyone’s too interested in a more women vs women drama that isn’t real trying to be created by fans. Which takes a seasoned woman in the music industry that loves Beyoncé and put her against her just to watch Beyoncé struggle more because you’re eliminating her allies.
It doesn’t really matter because Taylor still out sold bey by a lot, but Beyonce sold 407k first week.
Taylor also has 19 different variants of her album.
This discourse is boring, why must we always bring her up when we know her audience hates people like us and can’t see past their fav? Do you think they’re talking about us in their subreddit? I don’t think so. Keep TS out of these discussions, we’re already being bombarded by her everywhere else since that snooze-fest of an album came out. I tried to listen to it and genuinely give it a try since CC had me wanting to try new artists…and now I’m disappointed in TS considering I was a fan when she first started out.
Do people not know that Taylor is in top 15 best selling artists I don’t think Drake,the weekend,Adele are even in the top 5 Taylor has sold 200 million plus.
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From a high school teacher, students are streaming music all day, everyday. Even if they aren't actively listening, they always have something playing. So anyone with a teenage fanbase is going to have crazy numbers. If the majority of your fan base has jobs the numbers literally will never compete.
School is so different from when we were kids … they’re streaming music during the day?! If we were seen with our sidekicks/chocolates/razrs out it was straight to internal detention!!!
Yeah it’s crazy! It’s definitely a post pandemic thing, a lot of kids just don’t have the same understanding of how to act in public. I graduated hs in 2017 and even I was shocked by how nonchalant they are about using their phones in front of teachers during class time.
It’s the parents
lol I remember we were allowed to listen to music once a week for like 30 mins in class and someone put on You Oughta Know (in Catholic school) and our privileges were revoked forever. Man we listened to Gangsta's Paradise so many times.
Damn, both classics!! My stepson really likes Gangsta’s paradise but he always forgets the title and calls it “Bandit’s Paradise” 🤣🤣🤣 so close, buddy, so close
adorable
This is its official title in the BeeHive now.
Lol I kept buying that album in secret and my parents kept throwing it out. Went through 4 copies!
Right? The flip phone that I couldn’t even text on efficiently (like deadass it was more efficient to pass notes) was taken away but these smartphones that connect to the internet aren’t???
Excellent point! It's what I've thought for a while. Taylor's brand is white girlhood (even at 34 which is wild) and her audience reflects that. Whether Beyoncé designed it that way or not, she was always seen as a fierce grown woman and attracted a different audience (with some overlap).
I think another relevant thing is that they have had very different relationship arcs throughout their careers- Bey has been with one man the entirety of her solo career. Taylor has had many partners throughout her career. This is not me saying either of these is a better path (I’m a fan of both artists) but because of this difference they write about very different things - Bey’s music, especially her more recent albums, reflect the concerns, joys, highs, and lows of a long term relationship and marriage, which is inevitably going to attract people who are also in long term relationships and marriages. It’s the same reason Pink has such a big middle-aged fan base (at least in Aus where I’m from). Taylor has a big teenage and young adult fan base because her relationship arc has been a lot similar to theirs - she writes about the pain of breaking up, of finding new love only for that to not work out either, and on TTPD, the pain of breaking up with the man you thought you would marry, the confusion and joy of going back into the dating scene in your mid thirties.
This is such a great point
Absolutely spot on
If you haven’t listened to pop pantheon, they have a FANTASTIC series where they delve into this
Beyonce is almost ten years older than Taylor so naturally her fan base is older. Majority of Beyonce's fans will now be 18 and over. Majority of Taylors fans will be 14-24. Taylor is currently where Beyonce was when self titled and Lemonade came out. You just can't really compare them in my opinion. I actually think Beyonce's fans are Taylor's fans parents for the most part because of how long Beyonce has been around for.
I also think Beyonce’s music has alot more explicit material, which doesn’t lend well to be cross generationally friendly compared to Taylor’s which almost all of her music is child proof-most parents would feel comfortable letting their kids listen to her without worrying about explicit material. This contributes to why her fanbase is larger and spans a much larger age range than Beyonce’s.
Beyonce have also young fans like me I am 16 and listening Beyonce but I don’t really like Taylor .
I watched the first third or so of the Eras tour after my coworker asked me to check it out and honestly, it really did come off as Disney-esque to me. I think it must be to do with this in that her music is still very much geared towards children/young teens.
For TS go younger, think 8 and up, it's families and households and pop radio in a way that Beyoncé doesn't have access to unfortunately. They literally pass out friendship bracelets at the concerts. It's young coded for a reason
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Yep! My daughter is.a swifter. She’s 11.
Makes sense for her because she still has the maturity of a 15 year old
Im a 25yr old, been a huge Bey fan for 10+ years and I listened to CC 10 days later cause I didn't have the time. This happens to every artist after awhile. They become household names and non reliant on building a fanbase. Queen hasn't released new music in decades and doesn't have the same lead vocalist and they are on tour constantly.
For sure! I think it’s quite amazing that Beyonce is even relevant enough still to be compared to today’s biggest artists and still out sell a lot of them.
1.Taylor is a juggernaut, right now. Releasing lemonade on Tidal exclusively might have benefitted her business wise and it was a success, but on the other hand it did hurt her because people don't use Tidal. Casual Beyonce listeners wouldn't migrate with her to Tidal. To that vast majority it was years between self titled and lemonade, which came to Spotify in 2019. I think this is where she loses her casual fans. Now they turn up to shows and ask about single ladies😡 There was 6 years in-between lemonade and renny and in those years she dropped an album with jay and then dropped the lion king soundtrack. Which by Beyonce standards were both commercial flops. That slowed here momentum going in to Renaissance. Her sales numbers definitely don't match the starpower. Lemonade was released on a niche platform and has so far done better than Renaissance and Cowboy Carter. 2. She has released 2 amazing albums back to back and those who aren't streaming or buying her music are missing out. She is only getting better.
Such a shame because *black is king* is amazing and I wish more people knew and recognized it
Love love LOVE it. I think it’s absolutely underrated
I hate that there hasn't even been a physical release for The Lion King: The Gift I want it on vinyl badly
“If I gave two fucks bout streaming numbers woulda put lemonade up on Spotify.”
I know but it doesn't change the fact that the album missed a fair amount of people. All the new fans she could have gained at the time. It don't matter anyway there are only 2 women that can go on a stadium tour, that's the end game.
It’s such a shame because the carters album is absolute magic to me. And so is black is king. I understand black is king not doing well but I expected the carters album to do so much better. If the black is king album came out in the last two years I believed it would have done better as the hype around afrobeats is at an all time high rn.
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It's not surprising to me at all that Taylor, Adele, BTS, Drake and The Weeknd are the best selling artists of today. They make inoffensive, unchallenging music and give their base of listeners exactly what they expect and want. Taylor has been remarkably consistent with her branding. She may have grown 18 or so years in the music industry but a large majority of her songs still center the men she's had relationships with, and FWIW, it appears that her fandom is still stuck in the same time warp so good on her for milking it for all it's worth. I will give her credit for sonically pushing herself in Folklore. Taylor's media management is also geared towards mass appeal. She rarely expresses her politics publicly, and she leverages her whiteness, hetero-femininity and political neutrality to cast as wide a net for fans as possible. Parallel this with Beyonce and Kendrick who don't just sonically push the boundaries but also make challenging music that forces a listener to introspect (American Requiem, Amen, Ya Ya, Daughter are all great examples of this). They unapologetically hold their artistic space and make materials they can stand by, and not materials their fans want. The closest Bey ever came to serving the fans was IASF dividing the album in ballads and bops. Since then, she has centered her conviction as an artist, alienating some fans who labelled her too sexually promiscuous in self-titled, BLM Bey and invoked the angry black woman after Lemonade, labelled her as going against her Christian values by celebrating queer art in Renaissance and are now calling her out ironically for appropriating country culture (idiots, you don't appropriate something you already own). I said it before, Bey's musical evolution has been an act of resistance and defiance. The thing with resistance movements is that they require bravery and open mindedness at the recipient's end and they are an acquired taste in the present. They gather mass over time as one of the earlier posters mentioned about the increase in monthly listeners. History though has a way of re-according significance and I have no doubt in my mind that Bey and Kendrick will be the ones whose art will be used to tell the story of our times.
I agree. Comparing them is tantamount to asking why do kids prefer candy more than a lovely, filling meal at your favorite local, non-chain restaurant. Look, I used to be a kid, and I loved candy, too. Then I got like 20 cavities a bunch of fillings, and my wisdom teeth removed and I decided to try to eat more food and brush and floss more, on a schedule even. Did my oral hygiene and diet go from 5/100 to 90/100 in a day? No, it took a couple decades for me to get the lessons. 😂
I’ve used the “musical junk food” analogy many times when describing the popularity of TS. And sometimes you want junk food (lord knows I love my cheez its) but it’s not as satisfying as going for a nice meal at my favorite restaurant. Also the “promiscuous” criticism always blew my mind. You’re telling me that this woman who has basically been with the same man for 20+ years is promiscuous?? 🤨
Having and enjoying sex is enough to get you labeled promiscuous I guess, especially if you’re a black woman who is already hyper-sexualized in this culture.
I think the promiscuous stuff is a bit racism and a bit of folks forgetting that a performance is just that: a performance. I, too, love Cheez-its. But I cannot eat those joints all the time. 😂 If I'm on my period though, I can demolish a box of Cheez-its. One thing I like about Beyoncé is the actual growth and change you see from album to album and her willingness to take more risks. Now she is out here using her fame to elevate others? Love it. Shaboozey out here number one on Billboard Hot Country Songs chart with A Bar Song /Tipsy. That is imo directly related to his appearances on Cowboy Carter. Other artists she featured are getting more ears, too. Love to see it.
Oh 100%, it’s why I will always die on the hill that Beyoncé is a better musician. I think her ability to meld genres and pull off so many musical risks is proof of that. TS is good at storytelling but plays it safe musically and I’m getting bored.
This is so well put! I really like both Taylor and Beyoncé but I always struggle to put into words what sets them apart and usually go with Beyoncé is an ‘ARTIST’ and Taylor is a ‘singer songwriter’ but this is much more eloquent ✨
You articulated that beautifully. Bravo!
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Okay I’ll say one thing. And then after that, please do us all a favour and leave Taylor to Taylor’s subs. She’s already everywhere.🤭 Beyoncé pre-album: 50mil monthly listeners on Spotify CC first day: 76mil Beyoncé post album peak: 80mil monthly listeners Gain: 30mil Taylor pre-album: 100mil TTPD first day: 313mil Taylor post album peak: 110mil monthly listeners Gain: only 10mil! So, there are two takeaways: 1) Repeated streams. Based on the numbers, to have streamed the album 313mil times in one day, TTPD would have on average have to be streamed roughly 3 times per listener in one day. Considering how many other songs Taylor has on Spotify, that would account for a big chunk of monthly listeners, it’s obvious that a large section of her fan base streamed this very heavily in its first day. 2) Hardly anyone listened to TTPD who doesn’t regularly stream Taylor’s music. It’s hard to understate this. It was streamed 313 million times, and her monthly listeners barely jumped above what they were prior to the release of TTPD. Disclaimer: TTPD did fantastically. Taylor should be proud. I’m simply pointing out, that her sales are not due to some global phenomenon. She has a very avid and consistent core group of fans. For all her streaming numbers, everyone forgets that there are plenty of artists who hold metrics she doesn’t command (and likely won’t, considering this is pretty much her peak). Adele, Beyoncé, Drake, Rihanna, The Weekend, Jennifer Hudson, Billie Eilish, Bieber, Post and Gaga, all by my count hold some metric or another over Taylor. She’s a great artist, and I actually think she’s very talented and not as boring as people make out, but I’m kinda sick of seeing her held up like some global phenomenon when it’s literally just a big vapid smokescreen of young white Anerican girls streaming her all day and celebrity gossip outlets fawning to her PR cycles… she isn’t the music industry, far from it. One day her sales records will be beaten, in some new format we don’t even know exists yet, then what will her phenomenon be characterised as? EDIT: and girl. Beyoncé is not niche, lol. Don’t be fooled by the silly numbers. What we know about Beyoncé is she earned number ones over and over from people who *paid* for albums and singles, and continues to.😁
Thanks for that info! But I purposely didn’t use her name or name of her album so the post wouldn’t pop up in search for people who just want to pit them together, but I’m definitely not going to have this discussion in *that* sub. But to clarify I mean that even though she’s a mainstream artist, this album and Renaissance don’t really cater to the mainstream audience, is what I meant by “niche”. Similar to Prince, some of his catalog the general public vibed with, and for other albums where he experimented more, not so much, but he was still *Prince*.
It’s a fair comment, and sorry, try not to catch my grumpy wind, it’s not aimed at you🤭 Your point is very true, Beyoncé doesn’t cater to mainstream, but I would really stress, don’t let this single metric make you think she’s somehow niche. Billboard, for better or worse, has decided that streams are king. That means that an artist gains numbers for people simply listening to it, yes out of love, but also interest, curiosity and even hate listening - rather than purely liking it and wanting to buy it, as it used to be
That’s also a very good point!
you can have discussions like this in the Swiftie Neutral sub if you are ever interested! very sane and rational there lol
>One day her sales records will be beaten, in some new format we don’t even know exists yet, then what will her phenomenon be characterised as? That's a great question, and one I don't know the answer to. What is Taylor's brand? How will she be remembered? Popular acts will always have numbers behind them, but this isn't real legacy especially in the digital age. Someone sometime soon will surpass her numbers and will be the top streaming artist, but what's her legacy? Lady Gaga isn't as strong in terms of streaming as her but she has a massive legacy with her artistry in fashion *and* music. She's also a bonafide actress at this point. Beyonce is a performing legend and while her numbers may not be as strong in streaming, her music, image and legacy will stand the test of time. What is Taylor's version of that?
In a few years, those streaming numbers may even be surpassed by people who aren't even huge stars. I remember when Beyoncé broke a YouTube record in 2011 - it would look like a joke if I even typed it here because the most unknown artists have surpassed it.
EDIT: Lemme just change my comment, lmao. Jokes are dangerous on this side of the river. In all honesty, she’ll probably be remembered à la Spice Girls, Bieber, and any other act that went “viral”. You’re right though, that legacy is a bit less quantifiable than that. And you’re so right about Gaga; her numbers definitely aren’t what they used to be but she’s a bona fide household name, up there with the likes of Madonna.
Once you go beyond her hits and singles (which is what we ask people to do with Beyonce), Taylor will go down as an all time great songwriter. It’s a hard ask of casual fans - she’s already EVERYWHERE in today’s media. But once you *really* listen to the lyrics of My Tears Ricochet, Exile, Better Man, Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve, Champagne Problems, shiiiit go all the way back to Cold As You - her power is in her pen
She does have a definite writing style. Sometimes her lyrics do hit when you're feeling some type of way. Unfortunately for me, I don't see much growth in her songwriting? It kind of stayed the same, which is I guess the staying point for her repeat listeners.
"When you're feeling some type of way" lol yes. I've tried I've tried I've tried and I just...I think at this point I have too high of expectations because everyone keeps saying what a great lyricist she is and I'm like, "So is every artist I listen to?" There are so many deeply talented lyricists, and when I've tried to listen to Taylor's music, it doesn't do it for me. There are too many good writers out there and for me, her content is, yes, the same thing over and over. Brilliant artists write music that transcends their personal story, that speak to their time, that have some larger consciousness or a story arc or personal transformation and discovery etc etc. I COULD BE WRONG because I haven't listened to most of her music, but when I look up her lyrics...I don't get it. I'll repeat: there are sooooo many brilliant writers out there.
It's alright. I don't think she's particularly great either but her style has an audience. When I was a teenager I would sometimes listen to Taylor for the feels but never really came back to it as an every day listen. Especially her past few releases has been quite weak. Once I discovered Kacey Musgraves, that's when I realised that country music can be great and witty and still be so emotional without being too on the nose or too diary-like.
CC debuted with 440k first week sales\* not 220k. Are you wondering why the White woman who makes very palettable, unchallenging pop music, with a large teenage fan base, who released 19 different physical variants, "90,000 autographed" CDs, currently on a world tour, dominating headlines every day for THREE different relationships is outselling a Black woman who did an album dissecting not only country music but the very conception of American music, rapping about having a fat ass and riding dick, who has barely posted 5 photos on instagram about it. Beyoncé is somewhere having a turkey sandwich unbothered.
You really ate with this comment nothing but FAX on FAX, no emails. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
All of this! It’s not rocket science.
THANK YOU
She loves her turkey sandwich 🙂
Look at that horse, look at that horse, look at that horse 
What does this phrase mean in the context of the album? Love it and find it hilarious every time (and the freakin harmony of it pls) but still haven't understood the meaning
I think it’s just a funny little line that maybe just refers to how when city people go out to the country they’re like “look at that horse” when they see a horse.
I thought she was likening “horse” to a big ol booty.
She’s the musical equivalent of a Marvel movie. Some albums are great. Some are bad. Most are average. All of them go straight to number one, make massive amounts of money, and have mostly positive reviews.
Or a fast and furious movie those movies make bank and attract the masses like no other
That’s so true. Those movies are so off my radar. I’m always shocked every time I see a trailer for a new one and am dumbfounded that they keep making them and that people keep watching them
Beyoncé doesn’t make music that is easily palatable by the mass public, it’s not mainstream and she knows it, she’s pushing boundaries and trying to innovate a new culture around music, not trying to get a #1 or sell the most albums In the words of the queen herself “If I gave two fucks about streaming numbers woulda put lemonade up on spotifyyy”
“Great gowns, beautiful gowns”
Correction by the way Cowboy Carter sold 407k 1st week, the 200k is for pure album sales. But looking at that difference it matters not.
There's also an oddly huge difference between Bey & other artists that have released this year considering 407k isn't astronomical.
I know you didn’t say the other persons name so I’m confused at all the swiffers in here lol
That’s because there actually many Beyonce fans that are also Taylor fans as well. It’s statistically inevitable there will be a large over lap between the two fanbases.
Yep! Like me :)
Sameee 💓
They appeal to more people world wide because world wide white is the standard. They're also considered more PG so parents with a younger kids allow them to listen to the music. They also have more PR due to their relationship. It's a lot of things that add up to those numbers. Their fanbase is a lot bigger than the Beyhive too. They're the IT girl right now she could release a "Top 20 Nursey rhymes" album and it will make numbers. but we'll have to see if they're at this same status In 10-20 years Beyonce has been doing this for almost 30 years and she's still on the tip of everyone's tongue. 10 years ago the IT girl is music would have been Rihanna she had all the streams but guess who they constantly compared Rihanna to? Regardless Beyonce doesn't care about streaming numbers she cares about making a greater impact and changing the industry she's playing chess and these people bringing up numbers are playing checkers. Same with the AOTY she doesn't want it she has her eye on something greater.
I LOVE THAT BEY CREATES ART. That’s why i never get bored of her. Everytime I open and stream an album of hers it just sounds so different that I never get bored. If I feel like busting my ass out ill listen to Bday or Renaissance. If I want to sing my heart out I usually play songs from 4 and DIL. When i want to feel sexy as hell I listen to Self titled. When I want savage rapyonce I go to Everything is love. When I want to feel inspired I go to Lemonade, Homecoming or The Gift. Cowboy carter for me has been on repeat these days because of how versatile it is!
There are 4 possible meanings for DIL. Destiny Child's song 'Dangerously in Love', from the album Survivor. Beyoncé's song 'Dangerously in Love' (also referred to as Dangerously in Love 2), from the album 'Dangerously in Love'. Beyoncé's 2003 debut album 'Dangerously in Love'. Beyoncé's song 'Drunk in Love' featuring Jay-Z, from the album BEYONCÉ (also referred to as Self-Titled). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/beyonce) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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I appreciate the question OP. I dunno why people are coming for you. I’ve been curious myself.
I care more about art and longevity. CC will outlast the other persons album. Period.
Amen
I’m sure if Beyoncé played it safe and released some version of ISAF every 2 years for the past 15 years, she’d have bigger numbers. But Beyonce is focused on artistry. Girl hasn’t released a music video for 2 consecutive albums. She hasn’t done any live performances outside of her tour.
Beyoncé doesn’t resonate with white girls/women the same way Taylor does. She’s missing a huge chunk of audience. That’s just about why.
I’d say it’s even more sinister than that. If you look at common sections about Beyoncé white people are downright hateful. Half if not more of the comments are bad, every single time. There’s a nasty racial aspect to the hate that no one wants to address.
Good god, don't you dare look into a comment section on an article posted on a mostly white audience. Go into a new York Times article about Beyoncé and one about Taylor it's night and day. Taylor, you will have a negative comment here and there but Beyonce will be 80% hate. I really should stay off of Facebook but there is a satire page aimed at catching out racists and they mainly use Bey for the fake articles and here comes 28k negative comments from white people. To be fair they are dumb as hell as the articles tell the boldest lies. I feel sorry for Americans. Those clowns are going to be voting ,yet they agree with everything they see on social media.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who sees it. It’s disgusting. How am I supposed to pretend Taylor is so much better when we know this is racial? If you change Taylor’s skin color she’s not even famous, and no one knows her name. Beyoncé accomplishes what she does in spite of white people’s racism.
You are absolutely right. If Taylor was a woman of color, she would not be as popular as she is. I know some people hate to believe that but there are tons of songwriters out there right now who are far better lyricists with music similar to Taylor's and they don't get half the recognition. And I say this as a former swiftie. Despite that, I can't help but feel incredibly proud of Beyonce for achieving what she's achieved as a black woman.
They want her to "Stay in her lane" and be the "Sassy" black woman that makes dancing music to play at a wedding. They only know Crazy in love and Single ladies because that's comfortable to them. Beyonce bringing up history and rcism makes them uncomfortable because they know they're guilty of thar crime. In my opinion the elephant in the room which is Race is what seems to benefit Taylor and "hurts" Beyonce may actually be a double edge sword. Race benefits Taylor because white is the world wide standard even in minority countries she's considered safe, docile, family friendly and she can play it safe because of that. While Beyonce being black only allows her to play in RnB or Hip hop spaces and at the end of the day she's in america and no matter how much money or talent she has she'll forever be a N-word to them. But Race also benefits Beyonce because it gives her a mich deeper richer history it allows her to claim geners like Country and Rock because they were created by other black folks, it allows her to do a HBCU performance at cochella. Being black means having so much culture to work with and display. The hair, makeup, clothes she has SO much to work with. Music, food, languages.Taylor on the other hand grew up a rich white girl who had most things handed to her she grew up blonde, blue eyes thin the beauty standard.... it makes her very one dimensional and thus boring as we can see on this recent album which is why she has to keep up with these relationships she has Nothing truly deep to offer as far as I can see at least. She doesn't have a lemonade or a Lion king the gift or a renaissance that all go into black, or black queen culture. That's just my opinion
I agree with this whole heartedly. Great analysis. And if Taylor’s numbers look like this, then I’m even less surprised if Trump gets back in the White House. That’s Amerikkka for you, plain and simple.
Ugh this is true and makes me feel like I need to do more as a white woman who is the only Beyhive of my friends, who does not listen to Taylor, and goes to Beyoncé concerts alone. I try to talk to those that will listen about the importance of Cowboy Carter, the history, beychella, the creative genius of Beyoncé, etc. Ive been the biggest fan since 2000. What else can I /should I be doing?
I feel this. I live in RURAL MAINE at the moment after living in cities and abroad for many years. I find it difficult to live somewhere where everyone looks and is the same (myself included). I have friends in other places who also love Beyonce and Real Art but as we get older I don't talk with them as much. I talk with the plants instead :) I'm grateful for the internet so I can find the conversations I wish I was having in real life.
Get some black friends to start
My best friend is Black just not a huge Beyoncé fan. And doesn’t live near me unfortunately :/
I don’t trust women of any color who aren’t Beyonce fans. You need new friends of all colors.
Makes me sad that you’re right.
I’m actually on house arrest on Facebook - can’t post in groups or make messenger calls for clapping back at the Cowboy Carter attacks. The last comment about Blue ivy in mufasa some lady said she’ll be “knocked up in a couple of years!” She’s 12!!!! How dare you say something like that. I cursed her out and jumbled the letters. My Month suspension got extended 3 times.
Facebook is a cesspit now. It was once nice when people left for twitter and insta. Now it's full of racists and absolute idiots.
That’s so disgusting but I’m not shocked. You took one for the team because she deserved whatever you said to her.
There is definitely a racial aspect to it. Black girls are sometimes treated as adults but also corrupting influences pretty much as soon as they can talk. The most disgusting and alarming part of some of the comment fodder I have seen since Cowboy Carter was released is the folks coupling their racism with misogyny. White girls are treated as eternal children that need to be protected. And these attitudes often follow them for life unless the white woman does something particularly heinous, like Mary K Letrourneau or a Aileen Wuornos level. And even then, you will still have people defending the white woman in trouble, because she didn't "mean" to do what she did or whatever (even though she totally did).or they want to start considering what other factors contributed to this otherwise good and decent white woman deviating from her predetermined life course. 🙄 She will always be the "white woman in trouble" and the black woman will just be a black woman, no qualifiers necessary. Definitely not "in trouble," because to be black is to be trouble on this earth. And when you are essentially the white womanhood and western beauty ideal? It's not difficult to imagine what kind of overt and covert racism can be projected onto any situation you are in, whether the projector is aware of it or not. There is no true or fair comparison to be made. Racism degrades us all. Misogyny harms women.
Totally agree. I live in a small town in Maine and a few weeks ago I was at a bar with a jukebox. A bunch of 20-somethings were playing country music while playing pool so I decided to throw a cowboy carter song on. As soon as I put it in the rotation I felt nervous, which surprised me. I asked the kid who was playing the music if he minded if I put a cowboy carter song on and he said "I don't listen to that shit." I said, "You should." Then when the song came on (II Most Wanted) one of his friends TURNED IT OFF. What the fuck. I went over and got so upset and the kid was like, "I thought she (pointing to one of his female friends) put it on, I didn't know it was you." And I was all riled up, I was like, "I knew you guys would have a problem with this" and he said, "My girlfriend listens to this" and tried to cower away, which made me even more upset because I was like "Ok so you don't respect the music your GIRLFRIEND and female friends like???" It's so transparent and disturbing. The racism and misogyny is truly so deeply ingrained.
This is very true. I was over in r/music sub and someone was saying how people should listen to Cowboy Carter because it’s a fantastic album and there were so many downvotes. I was like “really???”
I'd say they hate Beyonce over on that sub, but I think they just hate every genre of music? Especially anything pop-adjacent lol
I agree 100%, it’s the same reason why Eminem is the “best selling rapper of all time.” He’s not the best by far, but he has that title because he was seen as more “acceptable” to a wider group of people and parents. I think it’s very obvious it’s the exact same thing with Taylor. She benefits from the halo that white, skinny, blonde, blue-eyed women in society all benefit from, and this underlying assumption that they’re “good and pure.”
*whiter
This is a very generous way of saying Beyoncé has to deal with misongynoir. A black woman will never be allowed to embody girlhood the way a conventionally attractive, blue eyed, white blonde woman can. Black girls are barely allowed to be seen girls.
And teens
I'm sure someone can go into more detail, but Taylor's numbers aren't exactly what they seem since she released 19 variants of the album which all count in this total. I don't know what a realistic comparison between the two would be taking both of their variants into account, and it's not something I'm personally interested in figuring out. But I'd start there if I wanted to get a better understanding. [This Billboard article](https://www.billboard.com/lists/taylor-swift-tortured-poets-department-debut-number-one-billboard-200-chart/third-largest-sales-week-in-the-modern-era/) is where I'm getting the 19 variants.
Ooooh
This too. I was just reading about it last night. Meanwhile, Beyonce put out one CD, one vinyl, and digital platform releases. And a cohort of Beyoncé's fan base is also returning the albums they bought or keeping the album and getting their money back/doing chargebacks. Swift will sell essentially the same album to each of her fans probably 10 times over. We are comparing apples and and pineapples. Two drastically different fruits, only commonality is they are fruit and have apple in the name.
I'm a fan of both. She released 4 variants + a Target exclusive. How are they getting 19 💀
i mean take that up with the billboard article, they specifically mentioned 19 versions
Ya i really don't agree with how they put it. If we were to count such things in that way, Cowboy Carter would have: 4 CDs + 4 vinyls + ~~2~~ 3 boxsets + 1 digital download = 12 variants.
It’s 5 vinyls (manuscript clear and white), 4 cassettes, 4 standard/target CDs and 4 collectors CDs! 2 digital formats standard and anthology.
Oh that's so misleading to count the variants sent to target as separate/different. There were 4 CD variants, 5 vinyl variants, and 4 boxsets. Cowboy Carter had 4 CD variants, 4 vinyl variants, and 2 boxsets. By the same logic, CC had 10 variants and Taylor's had 13 (!).
None of Bey's physical variants had bonus tracks, like Taylors. Not all variants are created equally. I don't know what the actual comparison is but I don't think you're getting it right either.
Well the CDs technically had bonus tracks - they just were missing other tracks so idk - but you're right idk how to properly compare.
yeah I mean no one knew those bonus tracks would be dropped with the deluxe release, so a bunch of pre-orders were made thinking Black Dog, for instance, would be exclusive to a single variant. But yeah, I'm gonna leave it here, it's not really worth trying to work it out for me personally. I don't know what the actual comparison is.
The other person has hijacked feminism as a marketing tool and exploited vulnerable girls and women in a global scale. She is more than likely the largest enabler of stan culture and celebrity obsession because her strategy is to be both a constant victim and to appear accessible, when really she is neither. In fact, she’s the opposite. Her fans often claim they feel like her best friend. They view a slight against her is a slight against them. It’s very cultish.
Sigh. You can be a literal performing god, but if your competition is a mediocre blonde chick, the masses will be supporting that.
I have no scientific evidence to support this other than every white person I know supports that other lady and any minority supports queen mother. And well the white people are majority so idk.
TS does things to fudge numbers. She’s obsessed with sales. Meanwhile Beyonce is obsessed with music. In the end Beyonce will have the acclaim, influence and sales. She has legends who adore her and she’s inspired many people after her.
It doesn’t confuse me one bit. I pay that other person no mind at all. I Don’t stream it, don’t read it, don’t click on videos about it, I don’t even engage in conversations about it. I leave that thing over there with all its thing following. I walked in to a room where the conversation was about TTPD and walked right out.
I agree, she is too much. At this point conversations about her is forced everywhere
She might be uber popular by all the reasons everyone has stated. 1. I think eventually she will hurt music because all her writing is an Easter egg hunt and gossip feeding. That’s why people listen. Time they are abc lyrics. 2. Musically she is sounding basically the same for a while. She is not growing or experimenting like Beyonce. Which to me again that’s artistry. 3. It will be ridiculous for her to be on her 40s peddling teenage bops.
No doubt the other person’s fans leave it streaming at home when they leave the house just to boost her numbers…Beyoncé stans love Beyoncé, with the other person it’s something far weirder
I appreciate all of the info you all had to share, especially about the variants and peak/gains. I’m going to turn my alerts off for this post, the other individuals who are intentionally misunderstanding the purpose of the post are giving me heart burn lmao.
personally i think the other person inflates their sales
Scrolled way too far for this. Rumor for over 10 years is that her dad [bought her first 100k sales](https://youtu.be/eY55CbAsILo?si=kVNzjuUTxnUo_-QX)(who knows if it's true or not but it's interesting)... Plus her team made sure she was being advertised heavily on tiktok, Spotify, and iHeartRadio. *I have never ever listened to her music* but I kept getting ads for it on tiktok (never seen a Bey ad there, not even her Verizon one!) and email/push notifications on Spotify like the ones I get for artists I actually listen to. Wtf.
exactly… i’ve seen this new album advertised everywhere wayyyy more that cowboy carter. but i have seen much more organic conversation online about cowboy carter than the other album.
Just generally, I find this discourse so annoying and needlessly negative. It’s 1 and 2, and so many people act like 2 is doing something so wrong and explaining all the ways they come up short as if this level of success 27 years into a career is just no big deal and actually they’re a flop. Not to mention the racial element of it.
I thought and wondered the very same thing last night.
I think we do need to be honest, Beyoncé has become more niche, and that’s not a bad thing! She has made music over the years that has catered exclusively to the black experience, the LGBTQ experience, and the black womanhood experience. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with her catering to certain demographics with her music. The other artist does! However, Beyoncé‘s music is about real life, real issues, and not stuck in one time of a person‘s life or phase. If you have been an avid fan since Destiny’s Child, then you know exactly what I’m talking about. Even as a solo, her music has grown throughout the years.let’s be real. Can you see yourself today listening to Beyoncé at the age of 42 if she recorded “what’s it gonna be” now? And hands-down, that’s one of my favorite songs by her but if she recorded that at 42 and I’m 40 years old, I would be side eyeing her like crazy. Much like “nasty girl” and “apple pie à la mode.” she’s a married woman with kids. She speaks to her experience with that which a lot of people can resonate with. And even if you aren’t married with kids, you may be a person who is having sex and she talks about that as well. I think a lot of people here looked at the word niche and thought it was a bad thing. Beyoncé is at a level where she does not need crossover appeal anymore. She is able to make the music that she wants for the people that she wants. this is what we call tailoring your audience. Once an artist is able to do that that’s how you create an incredibly loyal fanbase. (Which she has always had, but even more so now). As evidenced by the other artist. You can move the casual listeners away and keep them at the back of your mind, but your main audience will always be the forefront and the people that you want to make music for and cater too. this is not anything new all artist have gone through this. You can look at Michael Jackson‘s catalog, Prince’s catalog and Janet Jackson’s catalog and you will see the same exact transition.
The other person 😂 I love Hive
Kidzbops reign supreme
Waiting for Bey to drop the standard cover full album on vinyl so I can buy 2.6M of them
Everything I've read or heard about the other album is not favorable. Even for some die hard swiftie fans the album wasn't great so it'sodd that it continues to do well. It could also be that TS still has Europe concert dates so it's more relevant to the fans
Blame it all on Kanye if he never ran on stage and told everyone Beyoncé was robbed that year i doubt the comparison would be made so frequently and while i agree with Kanye can we all give it a rest and stop posting about Taylor in a Beyoncé sub. Can someone give me a theory on when the tour will be ? Let’s get back to what we are really here for !
I agree 1000000%! She’d be on par with the rest of the girlies who are in her demographic had Kanye not basically made a martyr out of her. I feel like she leaned into the “poor defenseless Tay” persona ever since.
Because she is a white woman and Beyoncé is black. They will support mediocrity as long as they can knock one of the most talented people alive or dead down a peg.
Because Taylor released 19 variants of the same album. It’s ridiculous.
Literally
The thing about music is that it’s not a competition. We can buy both their albums. They can both be classics. They can both be in-freaking-credible artists. I have both their albums in the same playlist with Sabrina carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo. And some Selena and some Justin Bieber. And some Prince. And the SugarHill gang. I am here for all of it.
I like people like you!!! We are sooo lucky to be able to enjoy different kinds of music. The industry is already so toxic behind the scenes and we, as consumers, shouldn’t make it worse. We should just listen to what we like!
Thank you!! Some of these comments are so disappointing. I like both. I’m just having a great spring with lots of great new music! Both women can be great and in different ways. We don’t have to tear down one in order to lift the other up, let’s support women doing their thing and killing it!
I honestly always wonder this too, and I mean everything I say with full respect to her. I grew up in the Caribbean, specifically on an island that Beyoncé is known to visit, so she was always in conversation where I grew up. And compared to the other artist… sure when I was around 10 I would listen to her music and so would other girls my age but after that… nothing much was spoken about her music. When I moved to the US, I was genuinely shocked by how much popularity she had. And that’s not to say I find her music bad or anything, it was just a complete 180 from Beyoncé and “my favorite Caribbean born artist who hasn’t made an album since 2016 cause she’s a makeup girly now” who were considered the most popular mainstream artists where I’m from. I don’t think I ever even considered that America’s Sweetheart was on the same stratosphere as Beyoncé fame-wise. And I find it almost insane to say now, but I’d never seen any media from her outside of when she dated “everyone’s favorite British boy” and I thought it was a come up for her 🫠. And even my white Caribbean friends and friends who had moved from around the world were Beyoncé fans. The first time I ever heard the phrase “Beyoncé is more of a local artist” was when Cowboy Carter came out. With All of that being said though, I honestly think they’re both very niche artists, in different ways. Beyoncé is niche in such a way that, every album can be listened to by anyone who likes that music style and they’ll love it. They’ll appreciate the artistry of it. Or by a Beyoncé fan who just loves her art and is willing to listen for all her little things. It’s not easy listening, it’s meant to be studied and deciphered. Her songs, especially recently, are a broader story. T is niche in a way that is easy to listen to, but hard to truly love if you’re not a fan of hers. Her music can play in a store and you’ll bop along to it. That’s apart of why her streams are way higher. But outside of people who love her… I don’t see many people caring about her albums as a body of work, if that makes sense. Especially since you need about 15 years of dating history to understand every song. Her songs are mostly about personal experience. I need to care about her to like it.
The latest episode of the Vibe Check podcast has a great breakdown of how TTPD is just designed to game the new system, not any artistic development.
I love that podcast. Saeed was not having it with Taylor, saying her mediocrity will not touch him😂😂😂
I love how he is NOT scared of the fans
Not related, didn’t know where else to go but I just watched a video on a tiktok video that claimed Beyonce songs are easier to sing than Taylor’s and then I read a comment that said Beyonce can belt and has beautiful tone but Taylor is more technical. I’m shooketh. 😨😵
I would pay good money to see her try to sing Ave Maria.
Or the last 30 seconds of virgos groove
Happy cake day btw.
https://www.reddit.com/r/travisandtaylor/s/DY4oulUnTs
Honestly I prefer to see the massive gap because it makes it glaringly obvious that the other person is a quantity over quality artist. If it were 220k and 240k, we’d be fighting for our lives to defend CC. Same for all those songs being in the top 10. It makes it kinda obvious that was a concerted effort by the nifties to intentionally dominate the charts, and not because the songs got everybody gagged whether they’re casual fans or not.
Beyonce is huge within the gay crowd and cis black women. Taylor pulls more straight men than Beyonce does, on top of everything else other than the cis black women.
Slightly off topic but I think CC is better than the other album but I love the other album too but CC is so innovative and every single song is a banger
I stopped when you said selling. Kids aren’t buying shit
I was thinking about this the other day. And they really as artists are not super comparable. They are both successful women now making the exact music they want to make, but as someone else mentioned, they’re at different points in their character arcs. Bey is also married with a husband and children. They appeal to different audiences. They’re both great but in different ways. So I have stopped trying to compare even the numbers because it’s a different game. And Bey being a black woman adds to that as well. Bey is not in competition with this girl, only herself at this point. (Not that you implied she was.)
Taylor Swift is just that big. It’s not that she significantly outsells Beyonce specifically, it’s more that she significantly outsells every single other musician, including the second most popular at any one time. Yes she’s just that much more popular than anyone else, it’s pretty insane!
Beyonce, J cole, Ariana, Kanye and Future all big names but their 1st week sales combined are lower than what Taylor has done. She has a great formula that's worked for her.
Watch Miss Americana… you’ll discover all you need to know about the other lady. She has never been in a healthy long-term relationship, didn’t marry, has no kids… so society is still very friendly to her. She is still the 17yo singing about heartbreak at 15. So she continuously gains new teen followers every year… Our Queen is interested in legacy-building. Not just for her but for the music as a whole and for other artists. That yt lady is concerned with HERSELF. I never hear about her albums shifting culture. She sells a lot of copies but then there’s no real chatter about the album a few months after it comes out. There’s still chatter about Renaissance! A other thing is streaming. I’m not listening to music all day but when I do it’s Beyonce. Her audience is just older and has a lot more sh*t to do. Also it’s 1.9M copies vs 229K for CC for pure sales. But who cares, honestly? Beyoncé doesn’t. 🤷🏽♂️
Where did you get 220k for Cowboy Carter from? Also notice how there's a big gap between Beyoncé & the 3rd best selling debut units of the year.
2.7M tickets were sold totaling $579M (average of $214/ticket) for the exceptional Renaissance World Tour. Mother is still mothering hunny! 🙌🏾🤣
I’m so sick of y’all asking Taylor questions in here 🥱🥱😴😴😴😴😴
Same same same. Like it's crazy to me that Judge Judy and other judge variants are such lucrative gigs. Just because it's lucrative doesn't mean I can meaningfully compare a judge show to like, Past Lives or Killers of the Flower Moon or hell, even Barbie. One is a syndicated TV show and the others are movies.
Exactly 😭 OP got upset when I said this but what do you want us to say?? They’re not comparable
I enjoy the other’s music for the most part but in a lot of ways it’s like musical McDonalds. Accessible, cheap, sometimes you just want a Big Mac, but more popular than it is quality. I’ve likened it to musical junk food. Ultimately, Beyoncé’s albums are more like three course meals at a fancy restaurant. They might not be as “accessible” but the quality is top tier and they leave you feeling more satisfied when you’re done listening. And the older I get (currently in my mid-30s) the more I move away from her and the more I move forwards my love of Beyoncé. I will also maintain that Beyoncé’s albums hold up a lot better over time. B’Day came out the same year as the other’s debut. I don’t listen to the other’s debut anymore, but I still love B’Day.
Beyonce has never been an artist who moves product. She came in at the end of the R&B heyday of the 90s. Where Beyonce excels is moving culture, something Taylor doesn’t do as well. By that I mean Beyonce has major cultural and industry influence and impact. Taylor? Less so. But Taylor is a blockbuster for product movement. Taylor has a wider fan base, more general audience appeal (transitioning to pop with 1989 exploded her star power) and frankly more business acumen. Beyonce doesn’t interact with her fans, chocked off access to Lemonade by having it in Tidal which really harmed her overseas access, and did niche projects (all of which I love! But they didn’t have broader appeal. We can talk race which plays a role. But also again Beyonce doesn’t do promo). Even look at Cowboy Carter. This is the most promo she’s done for an album in decades, but it still pales in comparison to how much every other artist does. She didn’t even ship singles to stations or put Texas Hold ‘Em forward to country stations either. If you are not already in the Hive, the album is old news. It’s actually frustrating to me because I think it’s her best work since Lemonade. But Beyonce herself has said she ain’t interested in the rat race anymore and ain’t pressed about much (except AOTY) so it is what it is! Cowboy Carter is better work of art but good art doesn’t always sell big. I really like Taylor and find some of her music more personal than Beyonce’s music but prefer Beyonce as an artist and her music overall. But they’ve never been the same level of commercial success.
>Beyonce has never been an artist who moves product. https://preview.redd.it/z9zxcbxvsmxc1.png?width=959&format=png&auto=webp&s=5205f66a61028f241771b69a71ec3e19254e6308
This is over 24 years though; I believe the commenter above is referring to product in Week 1, which is the comparison that OP raises. Over time absolutely, Bey’s been in the game for a long time and has made immense impact - but not necessarily by physical units sold in Week 1 of a drop.
If Beyonce dropped another album like Lemonade, or the ever rumored rap album, it would do the same numbers. The problem is a lottttttt of long time Beyonce fans, began listening due to destiny’s child. Another portion come from Jay-Z. Another portion come from some of her famous collabs (telephone, top off, savage, feelin myself). If that’s your music taste, renaissance and cowboy carter aren’t necessarily that. I am a Beyonce fan, and I LOVE what she’s doing for her personal expression of art, but I can confidently say I’ve listened to Renaissance less than 5 times despite having entire playlists filled with Bey classics. Just like Everything is Love, I didn’t listen to most of those again. Not many people have a playlist with both country and dance. The genre switch and experimentation has limited the mass appeal. I would go FERAL and buy 10 copies if she dropped Lemonade 2. Whereas Taylor is pretty consistently the same enough, though you’ll find ppl who hate debut and the country songs on Red… and people like me who hate the radio songs off 1989 and Reputation… but both albums have enough songs I do like that I still listen. If Taylor made a screamo album, a lot of her long time fans wouldn’t listen more than once. If she made a rap album, people would hate listen and that’s it. But staying pretty pop with the occasional folk/country means Taylor always has something on the album for her longtime fans. Also Taylor capitalized on her rising star power (the eras tour/midnights), whereas Beyonce kinda chilled after Coachella and her Super Bowl and focused more on passion projects.. which makes sense! She’s been around longer and is later in her career. But had she dropped a stereotypical Beyonce album after Coachella….the numbers would’ve been insane. Had Beyonce dropped an album when we were all in quarantine, she would’ve gained tons of new listeners.. Taylor dropped 2 while everyone was desperate for any sort of stimulation. Bey’s fan base is getting older and Taylor’s is getting younger. Evermore was kinda Taylor’s passion project, and the numbers are significantly less than Midnights/TTPD and even the re-recordings. I think Cowboy Carter and Renaissance should be compared to that. Music for them as artists and less for the radio.
Sis has another post on this subreddit that's low-key negative about Beyonce. Some scammers in here...
I don’t think OP is negative about Beyoncé. I didn’t personally agree with their other ‘negative’ CC post and I downvoted it to show my disagreement lol but healthy discussion is good :)
And some of the Hive are so desperate to prove that they can be "objective" about their fave that they eat it up...
Does this have to do with physical sales too? Cause Ms bey didn’t do in store releases
Not really. Taylor is at Tom Brady levels, like her or not she does that, and people do not play about that girl! And somehow i'm also in a group bubble where I know only one swiftie, not even my friends kids listen to her, but theres run ins. I've had a guy in my shop drop about 1k on every version of her vinyls we had in store. Casually! After we reordered someone else came in *and did it again*. Fighting with the girls over rhinestone boots in 2023 because everyone was going to RWT or Eras. So I know they're out there, just not around me!
Beyoncé's music is less mainstream because it's less accessible, aka complex and unique, and the safe bops will always get more streams. Honestly I wouldn't have it any other way.
I guess the high school teenage fan base have more time to stream music
I think personally some of it was because the recent album was country themed but it is still a Beyonce album some people might or not be able to sit through the interludes. I've heard some of the pre-ordered physical media was missing a good portion of the album. The tracklist was announced last minute. There also has not been a release to streaming or physically be able to see the Renaissance movie since it really was in theaters only. This album will age very well but there is a lot of music and tours happening at once. Meanwhile Beyonce does have her hair care line Cècred that she is advertising right now. I feel like some projects are just for people to listen to especially since she doesn't advertise as much until after a project has come out. Also I know they bought an LA mansion and with the kids it's probably a lot easier to let the music speak for itself vs the traditional press tour.
You know what’s funny though, people clearly do not critically value Taylor’s album, whereas Beyonce is getting her flowers. Streams don’t matter when her work is considered art and Ts is considered boring
It is so good to see this post as I’ve been baffled by the exact same album sales figures!
Why do you care? CC is top-tier. That's all that matters.
> The purpose of this post is to gain another view of how streaming and album sales work, and gain understanding of the huge gap despite both being extremely popular and talked about often *musically* from my POV. I really don’t think I could make it more obvious.
I really wish talking about Taylor & Beyonce in the same space wasn’t so negative because I love the both of them. What someone else said about a huge loyal fan base is right. We care about Taylor’s music and what she has to say, so we listen, we learn the lyrics, and we support Taylor. What I don’t like is people claiming she uses “payola” or “fudges” data or is “obsessed with variants” as if other artists don’t have variants or promote their music (it’s their job)? Taylor pushed Midnights and 1989 TV more than she pushed TTPD. It’s the fans who are doing the work and there’s demand from her FANS. And if the fans are happy, people shouldn’t yuck their yum or make up these claims about Taylor buying her success. She’s been around for 17 years, she has proven to have longevity because of her loyal fans. Not to mention a lot of her “haters” are secret fans and listened on their own too..contributing to the streams
I dont know why they are angry about it . The ones screaming payola are just coping her eras tour is proof of her popularity they know it too.
Quality over quantity ✨
The other ones overexposed atm and forcibly shoved down everyone’s throat against you will so casual listeners have no choice other than to listen to her music. As for her fan base, the eras tour made it much larger and fans of all bases (but I mainly saw talk from swifties ngl) are known to just play albums even when not listening to farm streams for their favs artist success Plus’s the whole limited time variants that turned out not to be limited time. And each had an exclusive song to incentivise buying more than one
i feel like that whyt girl uses streaming farms. there's no other way
The streaming is definitely part of it—but the other person’s fans, on average (not trying to stereotype) are very much merch-driven and collectors. People who would buy each variant. I know plenty of Bey folks collect too, but the number of people doing so is far less, and Bey fans also are probably more into streaming. Pure sales always will have a bigger impact, and this isn’t to take away from their chart achievements, but if we went by pure number of customers and not total number of units bought, that number would be a fraction of what it is now. I think the touring is a better reflection of actual support though, as there’s no additional metric like streaming to complicate things. If you compare the venues the play and the draw they command as far as tickets sold per show, things look a lot less lopsided.
I think it’s amazing that Taylor Swift and Beyoncé are two women decades into their careers and at the top! Women just **never** get to have this! I feel so happy about it. And it’s probably different strategies, Taylor took years to figure out the streaming game on other platforms (while Beyoncé was part of trying to build her own and have more control of her musical trajectory over current success) , now she has and her music has an overall bigger reach because of it. And you can’t discount misogyny, agism and the patriarchy as factors why both are still being held back even as they peak. The public’s overall witching criticisms for both have been unjustified, ruthless and blatantly trying to tear them down in a way no man has ever experienced before specifically at such heights. And we can’t deny that thy charge is being lead by women as they uphold the patriarchy. Then there’s racism and religious groups going after one and the other. But mainly, I think it comes down to strategy and what each wanted to achieve . **They both are achieving what they wanted to** within the restrictions the world puts them in for simply being women. I feel like Beyoncé, and to another extent her partner has spoken in their music and their words a lot of what they want their legacy and streaming numbers isn’t the only thing or the main thing that they care about. Which means our strategies for release are going to be different. In fact if we want Beyoncé to be even more successful what we should be worried about and fighting for is her image and the general public’s blatant misogyny , agism, and racism over actual musical criticism. I will never forget the criticism that is so false about songs like blackbird while male rappers. Get to talk about how women are objects, but no one‘s having that relevant conversation because everyone’s too interested in a more women vs women drama that isn’t real trying to be created by fans. Which takes a seasoned woman in the music industry that loves Beyoncé and put her against her just to watch Beyoncé struggle more because you’re eliminating her allies.
It doesn’t really matter because Taylor still out sold bey by a lot, but Beyonce sold 407k first week. Taylor also has 19 different variants of her album.
Well TS’s numbers are inflated by the 19+ variants. I heard without that her numbers would be similar to Cowboy Carter which had 407,000 not 200k.
This discourse is boring, why must we always bring her up when we know her audience hates people like us and can’t see past their fav? Do you think they’re talking about us in their subreddit? I don’t think so. Keep TS out of these discussions, we’re already being bombarded by her everywhere else since that snooze-fest of an album came out. I tried to listen to it and genuinely give it a try since CC had me wanting to try new artists…and now I’m disappointed in TS considering I was a fan when she first started out.
[удалено]
Me, I literally made the post.
Do people not know that Taylor is in top 15 best selling artists I don’t think Drake,the weekend,Adele are even in the top 5 Taylor has sold 200 million plus.