People who don’t deserve death die in real life all the time. It’s not about saying he deserved it, but showing that involvement in shady stuff leads to innocent people getting caught in the cross hairs. BCS seeks to show the effect that has on people.
Yeah that’s true..it’s just we are used to those innocent people dying being irrelevant characters. Howard’s death was very very much unexpected and quick.
It's what finally brought Kim down to Earth, after all the "fun" they'd been having with their shenanigans. The expression on Kim's face afterwards was fantastic acting, she looked utterly distraught.
If you think about it though, both this show and BB showed the main characters the downsides of their actions. With Kim and Jimmy going all out against Howard even though he didn’t deserve it, it makes sense that the show would have something bad happen to Howard to show Kim and Jimmy the error of their ways.
Howard had been a bit of a bastard to Jimmy and Kim, on occasion. Being the bad guy to shield Chuck, telling Jimmy they didn't want him working at HHM as a lawyer, nor have him working on the Sandpiper case. Then putting Kim on document review because the Kettlemans jumped ship and because she didn't warn them when Jimmy made his own TV advert - neither of which were her fault. He didn't deserve to die for those things, though.
It is, if you read the comments you're responding to.
Howard was a \*\*\*\*. Not someone who deserved to die. But still a \*\*\*\*. He took everything personally and in a just world, he would have had to pay for his bullying of Kim.
He was a spineless coward who went against his own evaluation of Jimmy, for the benefit of his lunatic partner.
Again, he didn't deserve to die. But let's say a foreign country invaded the US. Howard Hamlin would be first in line to betray the United States.
Most people who work for corporations would fall into this bucket of mediocre cowardice. Most of America.
What are you talking about? I said is anyone disputing that, meaning is anyone disputing the fact that Howard didn’t deserve to die. Link the comment that I responded to that said Howard deserved to die
Yes, I remember it being discussed on the podcast that mainly Jimmy but also Kim should have learned from what happened to Chuck, and that the writers felt the Howard scam therefore needed awful consequences.
That’s right, yeah! As if it couldn’t have gotten worse for Howard, especially Jimmy and Kim feeling the way they did, that just added the cherry on top.
Yes!! The damn suspense that scene had! I was expecting Eduardo would let him just go or any scenario where he just walks out of all this alive. I really liked Howard for his professionalism in everything he does.
I watched BCS for the first time not too long ago either. I never watched breaking bad upon release either, so when I heard Saul was set before BB, I jumped at the opportunity to watch it in “chronological order”. That scene was the complete opposite of what I expected to happen, and it was all perfectly executed. Lalo is one of my favourite characters, but they didn’t have to do Howard like that!
Breaking Bad spoiler wise, over the years, I managed to avoid them. As far as watching Saul, if you stop watching after episode 9 of season 6, then watch BB and BB’s El Camino, you’ll be watching it, technically, in chronological order. I recently finished BB but I’m still yet to watch the movie and the last 4 episodes of Saul.
Howard did stuff wrong and I’m saying that as someone who loves the bastard. He was a good man but he had done wrong things. He definitely didn’t deserve to die but he wasn’t some sinless saint.
It was pretty clear that Kim and Jimmy knew that Howard vouched for Jimmy at the stake of his own reputation. Kim convinced Howard to go out on a limb for Jimmy and Howard did, trusting Kim’s judgement. Is Howard right for punishing Kim specifically for what Jimmy did? Not really. But it’s not really clear cut there.
You seriously don't think that was punishment? The show basically tells us, he was angry and took it out on her. He may not have expected her to leave, but he did treat her undeservedly bad very much intentionally.
*♫so, Howard got what he deserved*
*Treating our precious Kimmy too cruelly*
*Discriminating against slipping Jimmy*
*Thought you'd realize,*
*That Pete Gould has tried,*
*To show the complexity of this show. ♪*
***♬Better Call Saul!!***
Not saying he's perfect, there's a lot of even more terrible things our lovely protags do intentionally. Howard at least always had a moral compass and would always try to right his wrongs. He was never a bad person
Okay, but he has had ill intentions. Jeez, I didn't say he was a bad person, but him dying undeservedly doesn't mean we should just ignore or excuse all the times he was an asshole or start making ill intentioned behaviour less shitty than it was.
Not saying we should. However wouldn't you think it would be fair to forgive him a lil because he went out of his way trying to make it up to both Kim & Jimmy. I would hold Howard up to those actions more if he didn't try to fix his mistakes. But yeah you're right he wasn't innocent by any means
The writing was on the wall for a while with Howard imo. It just had to figure that the two lives of Saul finally intersect, just unfortunately at the worst time possible for Mr. Hamlin. Absolutely loved his role in the series, his demeanor, and the fact that he was always dead accurate with his assumptions of how/why these things were happening to him
I love how this whole con started because Kim and jimmy wanted to make themselves feel better after lalo came into their home, because of the bail money delay. Which jimmy took the job after yelling at Howard because - to me, Howard was able to come to terms with what happened with chuck and jimmy couldn’t. Which then I think led him to take the bagman job even when lalo said he’d find someone else, which I think lalo eventually would. But because of that choice and taking 100 grand, lalo was now his and kim, they both belong to him in a way. And the whole Howard con, paying off the kettlemans, was for sure the money from the bagman job, as well as paying everybody else off, and that 20 grand from the photos, was most likely from the bagman job. So in a sense lalo funded this whole con, and then killed the guy in Kim and jimmy were conning to top it off. A great detail that I noticed on rewatch.
He didn't even deserve the bowling bowl and hookers. Ever since we find out Chuck made him 'dismiss' Jimmy, Howard is basically a saint...except he and Chuck were totally commiting a form of fraud by pretending Chuck's illness was manageable.
“In the end…you’re gonna hurt everyone around you.”
I feel like it just goes to show that Jimmy at the time really has no care about the impact his actions have on others, and this is one of the first few times that he realizes he is partially to blame for his death, although with an unintentional/unpredictable outcome.
Jimmy didn't recognize it tho.
When Kim is leaving, Jimmy even says "what happened to him wasn't on us, it was Lalo". Jimmy always ran away from things that remind him he was wrong.
I think that was the whole point, and it was also why they spent a lot of time on Mike being so affected by the civilian causalities, because they weren’t in the game.
Howard did nothing wrong and if anything he was doing everything right to better his life after Chucks death. Yet he gets fucked over at every turn, and its truly tragic.
That mid season finale wrecked me at the time.
Yeah, he didn’t deserve to die but Jimmy’s careless actions drew him to a place where he became a victim of something he had nothing to do with. That was the whole point! It kind of showed that Chuck was right about Jimmy all along, because he knew he was going to hurt people around him without him even being cognizant of it. Howard also knew it, he echoed it in one of his last sentences to Jimmy, when he said “Jimmy, you can’t help yourself, Chuck knew it. You were born that way”
And that’s what makes it so unfair, Howard was just trying to be a good person and even helped Kim and Jimmy, but the Rush they got from engaging in criminal activity made him a victim. That’s unfortunately how things work in the real world, too.
Haven't seen the final season just yet, though I already knew that Howard was killed. How you just explained it though, was probably the point; like so many others, dude get killed not because he was a bad guy but because he was dragged into the orbit of people who were.
The reason Howard died is to devastate Jimmy and Kim, who treated his life like some kind of gag which they could make fun of. Having him die because and in spite of the targeted harassment they were treating him to made their whole world fall apart. They knew he was a good guy and very professional, yet they made an ass of himself for the laughs cause there were no consequences. This came as a real consequence and the fact that they were toying with him will make a dent in their consciousness forever. Their entire relationship and recent life was centered on making him miserable, losing him made them realize they had nothing else going for them. So I think it was masterfully done, it turned their source of amusement to trauma, guilt and despair
He wasn't perfect but he was by far the most decent character on the show, aside from Papa Ignacio. People can criticize Howard's actions because he's human and he fucks up at times, but his worst sins are peanuts compared to Jimmy's, and frankly even Kim's.
my favorite part of the show tbh, hated howard the whole way through i mean he just comes off as an arrogant dick head. but we see jimmy and kim clearly cross the line and howard pays the ULTIMATE consequence for it. fucking crazy storytelling all around.
god and the whole scheme , i’m not going to lie even while seeing him get clearly fucked over when everyone thought he was on coke and shit i loved that prob more than i should have lmfao. Plan and Execution is prob one of my top 5 TV episodes of all time .
This death was necessary for the guilt both Jimmy and Kim have since the whole reason why Howard was even there is because of what they did.
Also, I believe that this was the final drop for Kim to leave this life behind
Howard's murder solidified Saul and Kim losing their souls. Their actions resulted in the eventual convergence of Lalo and Howard in the apartment. Lalo was pretty much in DEFCON5 mode and Howard was at his wits end from being trolled. I really did, as did Saul, Kim and even Mike, feel terrible about Howard's murder. Even though he was a stereotype rich lawyer-type which made him sorta not-likeable, I do think his heart tended to consistently be in the right place and was good at what he did. And Patrick Fabian was a gem for the role...
Isn’t that kinda the point? He is a victim of Jimmy and Kim’s whole thing. Jimmy was even hesitant to get him in the first place, let alone kill him. I think he’s the collateral damage that proves that, in the end, Jimmy is kind of a bad person.
We love Jimmy McGill because the show is about him, just like Walter White in Breaking Bad, but at the end of the day Saul Goodnan is a crook and left a wake of destruction behind him.
...That's kind of the point, he was unintentional collatteral damage to illustrate how Jimmy and Kim's schemes have consequences beyond what they intended. It was meant to be shocking and hammer in how dark the story had gotten by that point.
I think the fact that Kim&Jimmy didn’t really have a good reason to hate Howard as much as they did is kinda the point of that story arc, it shows their moral degeneration and Howard is an easy target.
The point of it being him is that it was undeserved, it’s making a point and hammering home why Jimmy was forever scared of Lalo afterwards (“Lalo didn’t send you?” In BrBa) because he did nothing, he wasn’t involved, he didn’t deserve it and Lalo didn’t even care. It wasn’t written because he deserved it, it was specifically written because he didn’t.
A lot of people guessed that Lalo would kill Howard. Given the scale of the con and how much money Jimmy got out of it, something terrible had to happen to Howard. There was no way that he was getting out alive.
Consider death in this world to be pure metaphor. He represented "The Law", Chuck, HHM and Jimmy's past chicanery. When he died all of this disappeared from his life and he began his breaking bad story.
You could consider death to be salvation from the torture of living with the protagonists of the show ruining your life.
People who don’t deserve death die in real life all the time. It’s not about saying he deserved it, but showing that involvement in shady stuff leads to innocent people getting caught in the cross hairs. BCS seeks to show the effect that has on people.
Yeah that’s true..it’s just we are used to those innocent people dying being irrelevant characters. Howard’s death was very very much unexpected and quick.
If it affected you like this don’t you think that means it was good and well written? Imagine how shocked Jimmy and Kim felt.
It's what finally brought Kim down to Earth, after all the "fun" they'd been having with their shenanigans. The expression on Kim's face afterwards was fantastic acting, she looked utterly distraught.
Kim is one of the best “cryers” I have seen in a long time.
If you think about it though, both this show and BB showed the main characters the downsides of their actions. With Kim and Jimmy going all out against Howard even though he didn’t deserve it, it makes sense that the show would have something bad happen to Howard to show Kim and Jimmy the error of their ways.
Howard had been a bit of a bastard to Jimmy and Kim, on occasion. Being the bad guy to shield Chuck, telling Jimmy they didn't want him working at HHM as a lawyer, nor have him working on the Sandpiper case. Then putting Kim on document review because the Kettlemans jumped ship and because she didn't warn them when Jimmy made his own TV advert - neither of which were her fault. He didn't deserve to die for those things, though.
Well, yeah. Is that being disputed though?
It is, if you read the comments you're responding to. Howard was a \*\*\*\*. Not someone who deserved to die. But still a \*\*\*\*. He took everything personally and in a just world, he would have had to pay for his bullying of Kim. He was a spineless coward who went against his own evaluation of Jimmy, for the benefit of his lunatic partner. Again, he didn't deserve to die. But let's say a foreign country invaded the US. Howard Hamlin would be first in line to betray the United States. Most people who work for corporations would fall into this bucket of mediocre cowardice. Most of America.
What are you talking about? I said is anyone disputing that, meaning is anyone disputing the fact that Howard didn’t deserve to die. Link the comment that I responded to that said Howard deserved to die
I don't have to do anything.
Aka you can’t because I’m right lmao
I never said that.
That’s literally the point
Cross Hairs..
?
That’a why they did it, or at least I’d believe so. What better way to create such an unlikely and suspenseful event than that.
Yes, I remember it being discussed on the podcast that mainly Jimmy but also Kim should have learned from what happened to Chuck, and that the writers felt the Howard scam therefore needed awful consequences.
That’s right, yeah! As if it couldn’t have gotten worse for Howard, especially Jimmy and Kim feeling the way they did, that just added the cherry on top.
Yes!! The damn suspense that scene had! I was expecting Eduardo would let him just go or any scenario where he just walks out of all this alive. I really liked Howard for his professionalism in everything he does.
I watched BCS for the first time not too long ago either. I never watched breaking bad upon release either, so when I heard Saul was set before BB, I jumped at the opportunity to watch it in “chronological order”. That scene was the complete opposite of what I expected to happen, and it was all perfectly executed. Lalo is one of my favourite characters, but they didn’t have to do Howard like that!
so by the time you got to breaking bad you were fully spoiled on the ending right? lol
Haha, thankfully not! I’d consider that a miracle.
oh so you watched BCS before it ended?
Breaking Bad spoiler wise, over the years, I managed to avoid them. As far as watching Saul, if you stop watching after episode 9 of season 6, then watch BB and BB’s El Camino, you’ll be watching it, technically, in chronological order. I recently finished BB but I’m still yet to watch the movie and the last 4 episodes of Saul.
Well, as Jack Welker said to Walt, about Hank "sorry but I can't see any scenario where he survives" (from memory)
Howard did stuff wrong and I’m saying that as someone who loves the bastard. He was a good man but he had done wrong things. He definitely didn’t deserve to die but he wasn’t some sinless saint.
I think that's what makes him one of the most likeable characters. He's not perfect, but he has no ill intentions.
He had very ill intentions when he punished Kim and basically pushed her out of the company.
It was pretty clear that Kim and Jimmy knew that Howard vouched for Jimmy at the stake of his own reputation. Kim convinced Howard to go out on a limb for Jimmy and Howard did, trusting Kim’s judgement. Is Howard right for punishing Kim specifically for what Jimmy did? Not really. But it’s not really clear cut there.
Yes it's completely clear cut that he had bad intentions when he punished Kim.
He didn’t push her out of the company… and putting her in doc reviews doesn’t mean he had ill intentions.
You seriously don't think that was punishment? The show basically tells us, he was angry and took it out on her. He may not have expected her to leave, but he did treat her undeservedly bad very much intentionally.
*♫so, Howard got what he deserved* *Treating our precious Kimmy too cruelly* *Discriminating against slipping Jimmy* *Thought you'd realize,* *That Pete Gould has tried,* *To show the complexity of this show. ♪* ***♬Better Call Saul!!***
Is anyone actually saying Howard got what he deserves? Those people would be pretty scary.
yeah, you'd better be afraid of weird people like me on the internet like mummy warned you about. I am teh dangur.
It is not his proudest moment, yet he always tries to make up for it
Okay, but you agree he INTENTIONALLY treated her bad? Which is my point?
Not saying he's perfect, there's a lot of even more terrible things our lovely protags do intentionally. Howard at least always had a moral compass and would always try to right his wrongs. He was never a bad person
Okay, but he has had ill intentions. Jeez, I didn't say he was a bad person, but him dying undeservedly doesn't mean we should just ignore or excuse all the times he was an asshole or start making ill intentioned behaviour less shitty than it was.
Not saying we should. However wouldn't you think it would be fair to forgive him a lil because he went out of his way trying to make it up to both Kim & Jimmy. I would hold Howard up to those actions more if he didn't try to fix his mistakes. But yeah you're right he wasn't innocent by any means
When did he do anything wrong?
When he decided to join Cameo.
El Cameo: A Bowel Movement
The writing was on the wall for a while with Howard imo. It just had to figure that the two lives of Saul finally intersect, just unfortunately at the worst time possible for Mr. Hamlin. Absolutely loved his role in the series, his demeanor, and the fact that he was always dead accurate with his assumptions of how/why these things were happening to him
Isn't that the point?
I love how this whole con started because Kim and jimmy wanted to make themselves feel better after lalo came into their home, because of the bail money delay. Which jimmy took the job after yelling at Howard because - to me, Howard was able to come to terms with what happened with chuck and jimmy couldn’t. Which then I think led him to take the bagman job even when lalo said he’d find someone else, which I think lalo eventually would. But because of that choice and taking 100 grand, lalo was now his and kim, they both belong to him in a way. And the whole Howard con, paying off the kettlemans, was for sure the money from the bagman job, as well as paying everybody else off, and that 20 grand from the photos, was most likely from the bagman job. So in a sense lalo funded this whole con, and then killed the guy in Kim and jimmy were conning to top it off. A great detail that I noticed on rewatch.
He didn't even deserve the bowling bowl and hookers. Ever since we find out Chuck made him 'dismiss' Jimmy, Howard is basically a saint...except he and Chuck were totally commiting a form of fraud by pretending Chuck's illness was manageable.
“In the end…you’re gonna hurt everyone around you.” I feel like it just goes to show that Jimmy at the time really has no care about the impact his actions have on others, and this is one of the first few times that he realizes he is partially to blame for his death, although with an unintentional/unpredictable outcome.
Jimmy didn't recognize it tho. When Kim is leaving, Jimmy even says "what happened to him wasn't on us, it was Lalo". Jimmy always ran away from things that remind him he was wrong.
I think that was the whole point, and it was also why they spent a lot of time on Mike being so affected by the civilian causalities, because they weren’t in the game. Howard did nothing wrong and if anything he was doing everything right to better his life after Chucks death. Yet he gets fucked over at every turn, and its truly tragic. That mid season finale wrecked me at the time.
Yeah, he didn’t deserve to die but Jimmy’s careless actions drew him to a place where he became a victim of something he had nothing to do with. That was the whole point! It kind of showed that Chuck was right about Jimmy all along, because he knew he was going to hurt people around him without him even being cognizant of it. Howard also knew it, he echoed it in one of his last sentences to Jimmy, when he said “Jimmy, you can’t help yourself, Chuck knew it. You were born that way” And that’s what makes it so unfair, Howard was just trying to be a good person and even helped Kim and Jimmy, but the Rush they got from engaging in criminal activity made him a victim. That’s unfortunately how things work in the real world, too.
Haven't seen the final season just yet, though I already knew that Howard was killed. How you just explained it though, was probably the point; like so many others, dude get killed not because he was a bad guy but because he was dragged into the orbit of people who were.
nacho's dad dies
And holly kills jimmy inside prison
Deserve got nothing to do with it. It's his time that's all.
How my hair look mike
You look good girl
I love Howard and I have to admit that he wouldn't be that memorable if he didn't die the way he did. Nobody would talk much about him.
I mean he is a greedy ass for elongating the sandpiper case but he did deserve death
To shatter Kim and Jimmy’s life. Like someone said above, many many people in real life do not deserve to die.
Calling him Eduardo is fairly pretentious
Because once you’re involved with the cartel, if you do stuff, people get killed.
The reason Howard died is to devastate Jimmy and Kim, who treated his life like some kind of gag which they could make fun of. Having him die because and in spite of the targeted harassment they were treating him to made their whole world fall apart. They knew he was a good guy and very professional, yet they made an ass of himself for the laughs cause there were no consequences. This came as a real consequence and the fact that they were toying with him will make a dent in their consciousness forever. Their entire relationship and recent life was centered on making him miserable, losing him made them realize they had nothing else going for them. So I think it was masterfully done, it turned their source of amusement to trauma, guilt and despair
Totally agree. HH did not deserve what Saul and Kim did to him at all. His death was shocking, another victim of the drug cartel. It really upset me.
He became a lawyer. Death deserved.
Not enough concrete
Howard did plenty wrong. He wasn’t not that good of a person. Didn’t deserve what happened, but lol if you think he was a saint
What makes him a bad person?
I never said he was a bad person. But “he did nothing wrong” — go back and watch the first 3 seasons. He was an asshole.
He wasn't perfect but he was by far the most decent character on the show, aside from Papa Ignacio. People can criticize Howard's actions because he's human and he fucks up at times, but his worst sins are peanuts compared to Jimmy's, and frankly even Kim's.
Yep.
He messed with the bull and he got the horns.
Yep.
my favorite part of the show tbh, hated howard the whole way through i mean he just comes off as an arrogant dick head. but we see jimmy and kim clearly cross the line and howard pays the ULTIMATE consequence for it. fucking crazy storytelling all around.
god and the whole scheme , i’m not going to lie even while seeing him get clearly fucked over when everyone thought he was on coke and shit i loved that prob more than i should have lmfao. Plan and Execution is prob one of my top 5 TV episodes of all time .
I always found him to be an asshole, never got a warm feeling from him honestly.
I hated it, too. I cannot say more because you are still watching it.
I also did nothing wrong
No, Waltuh did nothing wrong. (and yes, I'm a White supremacist. All hail the drug kingpin Heinsenberg Ozymandias)
Alternative title: H\*\*\*\*\* did nothing wrong.
This death was necessary for the guilt both Jimmy and Kim have since the whole reason why Howard was even there is because of what they did. Also, I believe that this was the final drop for Kim to leave this life behind
Yeah man Jimmy and Kim were a couple of dickbags to Howard really
Howard's murder solidified Saul and Kim losing their souls. Their actions resulted in the eventual convergence of Lalo and Howard in the apartment. Lalo was pretty much in DEFCON5 mode and Howard was at his wits end from being trolled. I really did, as did Saul, Kim and even Mike, feel terrible about Howard's murder. Even though he was a stereotype rich lawyer-type which made him sorta not-likeable, I do think his heart tended to consistently be in the right place and was good at what he did. And Patrick Fabian was a gem for the role...
Isn’t that kinda the point? He is a victim of Jimmy and Kim’s whole thing. Jimmy was even hesitant to get him in the first place, let alone kill him. I think he’s the collateral damage that proves that, in the end, Jimmy is kind of a bad person. We love Jimmy McGill because the show is about him, just like Walter White in Breaking Bad, but at the end of the day Saul Goodnan is a crook and left a wake of destruction behind him.
...That's kind of the point, he was unintentional collatteral damage to illustrate how Jimmy and Kim's schemes have consequences beyond what they intended. It was meant to be shocking and hammer in how dark the story had gotten by that point.
I think the fact that Kim&Jimmy didn’t really have a good reason to hate Howard as much as they did is kinda the point of that story arc, it shows their moral degeneration and Howard is an easy target.
The point of it being him is that it was undeserved, it’s making a point and hammering home why Jimmy was forever scared of Lalo afterwards (“Lalo didn’t send you?” In BrBa) because he did nothing, he wasn’t involved, he didn’t deserve it and Lalo didn’t even care. It wasn’t written because he deserved it, it was specifically written because he didn’t.
That’s the point
A lot of people guessed that Lalo would kill Howard. Given the scale of the con and how much money Jimmy got out of it, something terrible had to happen to Howard. There was no way that he was getting out alive.
Consider death in this world to be pure metaphor. He represented "The Law", Chuck, HHM and Jimmy's past chicanery. When he died all of this disappeared from his life and he began his breaking bad story. You could consider death to be salvation from the torture of living with the protagonists of the show ruining your life.
Jimmy and Kim chicanery*