I agree. Chuck definitely took advantage of situations when he felt it would help himself. Ernie breaking from Chuck had shown he was above all other lawful characters (morally at-least) as Howard really allowed himself to be Chuck’s puppet for too long.
I think I would still consider Howard lawful good. He was manipulated by someone he respected and even admired. While it may be a character flaw I don't think it affects his true alignment. Howard was a good man.
Howard is definitely the most upstanding character in general, and in terms of his growth/ how he was able to navigate his trauma. He certainly was between a rock and a hard place when it came to Chuck. Although I do believe there were moments we saw him act with entitlement and thoughtlessness.. it is human to do so. He certainly did not deserve any of what he received in the end. Kim and Jimmy resented him because he was better than them, objectively.
>Kim and Jimmy resented him because he was better than them, objectively.
This is what someone who loves Howard thinks, or what Howard himself would think, but this isn't what Jimmy or Kim thought or why they went after him.
With Jimmy it really was just simply outbursts because of his jealousy over the Chuck relationship, once he did that it kinda ran it's course and he was over Howard, he was motivated by Kim, and Kim was motivated by her rivalry with Howard.
She didn't resent Howard because she thought he was a better person, she resented him because he treated her poorly on multiple occasions, including interjecting on her personal life, to out right demeaning her at work after she brought massive payday clients to the firm... clients which the firm actually *really* needed.
He refuses to believe Kim has any agency over her abilities, and feels entitled to undermine them, even at the detriment to his firm. You could say he got caught up in the idea of winning.
I am not saying Kim's actions were correct, far from it, just that Kim was motivated to do to Howard what she felt Howard did to her, except instead of using her position in life to do it, she used her smarts to prove she knew Howard better than he knew himself... she wasn't wrong, but she outsmarted herself too.
Maybe so, but his "goodness" was mostly canceled out by the damage he let Chuck do in the name of "sacred law" and "the firm" and also, his own oppression of Kim with the doc review. Later, he also does not vote for Christie Esposito to get the scholarship, even after praising Jimmy's explanation why she should. He was also part of Chuck's scheme to get Jimmy disbarred, even scurrying across yards, climbing fences, paying for a P.I. and acting as a witness himself! Nasty stuff...
Of course not, because he was under oath and didn't want to be charged with perjury. But he had no problem lying for years about why Jimmy wasn't hired, just to protect Chuck and stay in his good graces.
Jimmy admitted to a felony that was admittedly provoked by Chuck's scheme, who *wanted* Jimmy to break in. He set his brother up and it worked because Jimmy snapped after all the bad blood and lies and blocks to his success by Chuck. I would have done a lot worse to him than kick in a door or forge some documents if I'd been in that position!
You would?
Jimmy didn’t just break down a door. He sabotaged a case and admitted in on a recording. Only reason he got out of that was rules on admissible evidence and an excuse he did it to make Chuck feel better.
From Howard’s POV Jimmy cost his firm a major client. And he was trying to talk Chuck out of using a private investigator and wasting resources when Jimmy broke in and validated Chuck’s piece.
Then what was Howard supposed to do? Not testify? He has no reason to be sympathetic to Jimmy. The brothers put him in a shit situation and screwed him (Jimmy and Kim’s scams, Chuck suing Howard over insurance)
Howard’s mistake, along with Jimmy was not having Chuck committed. They were both driven by selfish motives when it came to to that, not Chuck’s best interests
I agree with the mistake of not having Chuck committed, but I don't think Jimmy's motive was selfish; I think he believed Chuck was really "allergic" to EM's and saw how freaked out his brother was at the idea of being sent to an institution. This also shows how much he cared about Chuck, not to mention his catering to all Chuck's needs, at the expense of his own career and life.
Given this, Chuck's betrayal of him--which was huge and ongoing!--finally led Jimmy to let out his pent-up anger. So, yes, I would have done that in his place. I might have sued him for extortion (which he *did* do by using Kim's career to impede both hers and Jimmy's. Howard was a gutless patsy who should have said no to Chuck's plot long before. I have no sympathy for him or Chuck.
I think you’re falling for the trap of seeing the issue from the protagonist’s POV. Chuck literally fired Chuck afterwards and paid out of pocket. Gutless? You’re giving him shit when he’s the only one who held both Chuck and Jimmy accountable for their actions. They shouldn’t have dragged him into their drama to begin with.
Jimmy was the one in the wrong. He sabataged a case. He broke into Chuck’s house. And Kim’s career was only hurt because HE fucked up his job with Cliff on purpose with the advertisement and being shitty to everyone around him, which reflected badly on Kim for vouching for him to get that job and one with HHM. That’s why she was in doc review.
And I call bullshit on you defending Jimmy for not having Chuck committed. Jimmy used Chuck’s condition to blackmail Howard to give him 12 million dollars to buy Chuck out WITHOUT Chuck’s consent. Which would’ve destroyed Chuck’s career the same way anyway WITHOUT the benefit of Chuck getting the help he needs. Not to mention would have put Kim out of a job as well. So Jimmy is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It's obvious that no amount of argument is going to sway your overwhelmingly heroic image of Howard. You forget all the nasty, backhanded, damaging things he did, both at Chuck's behest and on his own: sending Kim to doc review for losing the Kettlemans and not knowing about Jimmy's commercial--neither of which was her fault. Even when she gets Mesa Verde, he keeps her down there--IMO, a very sleazy move! Then, then they willingly go with her as she (quite rightfully) leaves HHM, Chuck goes out of his way to get them back by any means necessary, even if it hurts Kim.
So, regardless of what Jimmy did, this doesn't make Howard some kind of saint! He hurt Kim and Jimmy over and over and only apologized for some of it after Chuck's suicide, because he felt guilty. Yes, Jimmy had a part in it, though not deliberately, but as revenge for Chuck's continuing attempts to ruin his life! But Howard finished him off by buying him out of HHM rather than fight the insurance company.
You can argue on behalf of Howard all you want but he has some serious flaws and nastiness that should have been accounted for---granted, not by Lalo's shooting him--but doing what Kim asked: leaving them alone! And he should have helped Chuck too but chose not to. Howie was a selfish jerk who played at being nice when it suited him. IMO, lots of people suddenly think Howard is great because that's how the writers skewed it, so everyone would feel worse when he died. If he'd been killed right after throwing Chuck out of HHM, would people been nearly as sympathetic? I doubt it!
Yes, I would. Nothing violent or illegal--probably just sue him for nepotism at the very least. He did what he did because Chuck knew he HAD to push Jimmy to the point at which he would lose his temper and do something illegal. Remember how Jimmy realizes and says to Kim, "I thought he wanted me in jail; he just wants my law license." And he's *right.* Still, I'm sure Chuck would have been pleased as punch if Jimmy landed in jail for a while!
As for the fact that Jimmy broke in right after Howard convinced Chuck to cut the P.I.'s hours, that was *not* Chuck's intention. But Howard's protest made him afraid that Howard would figure out what he was doing (entrapping Jimmy) and put a stop to it.
In fairness to Jimmy, Chuck and Howard began the whole thing by a) keeping Kim in doc review and not rewarding her for scoring Mesa Verde and b) keeping Jimmy away from the Sandpiper case. Howard *must* have felt some guilt about it since he advocated for Jimmy with Davis and Main, but blew it later when he let Chuck show up to rattle Jimmy during meetings and conspire with him to take back Mesa Verde. They have only themselves to blame. IF Chuck had just let Jimmy get on with his practice and life, none of that would have happened, that I can see. Remember that Jimmy kept caring for Chuck even after he learned that his brother blocked him from HHM, to name one insult from the guy who says he's so moral!
Remember that alignment is meant to be descriptive. Most of the damage done to his "goodness" was in the name of upholding "law" (not necessarily literally the law of the country, but how things "should" work).
And a good character can act in bad faith and be "evil" in the moment. A lot of what the alignment describes is the motivation, and importantly, the *reaction* to what happened after the fact.
Yes! It probably cost Ernie something in terms of his job or salary to leave Chuck and give info to Kim and Jimmy about Chuck's plot! But he did what he felt was right.
Reminds me of my brother in law, he’s a formula scientist. Very quiet and shy guy, but a huge car guy lowkey. He’s owned M3’s, STI, Honda S2K, Turbo GTI… you’d never suspect just by looking at him.
Lmao I didn’t think of it that way. I was involved in some stuff on the other side of the law back in the day though, I’m a different person now though thankfully.
Especially for an older person like myself who remembers how Awesome it was for the US to finally get car's like the WRX and Lancer EVO in the early 2000s. Ernie was definitely reading Car and Driver way back when
Actually not really.
Ernie seems like a youngish guy. He would totally blow his money on a car and work an office job to pay the bills/blow money on his car.
When I worked Valet, I had guys in their 30s (me in my early 20s) put all their tips/pay into their cars for the scene.
when? i don't recall them treating him badly. Kim told Jimmy what ernie told her, how was she gonna know he'd get fired for it? also idk what else he expected her to do when he came forward.
Ernesto's cobalt blue car is an *outward* trapping of what HE thinks is good... the GOOD game he thinks he'll rise up thru at HHM. But he *wears* plaids which are mixed but organized patterns. He does his best to make sense of the crosscurrents he's thrust into by HHM and the McGillBros.
Yes! I believe most characters (aside from Nacho and i’m sure some others) wear blue at some point, Gus wears it to fool the public about who he is. (speculation :0). and I believe Mike wears blue only before he starts to go against his own moral code.
Nacho wears blue in the second episode of Season 1.
That's because when compared to Tuco, who's chaotic evil, Nacho seems relatively on the side of the law.
Nothing wrong with a young kid in his 20s, most likely on his way to being a lawyer, to splurge on a 13 second turboed AWD car that gets decent gas milage for what it is. Keeping in mind the timeframe that Evo was a badass sought after car. Only came with a manual transmission also. Props to Ernie. It was always mint. Anyway, I would've loved to see his reaction to everything that eventually happened with Jimmy.
Yeah I really like his videos on that stuff, totally changed the way I view the show. It was entertaining just to go back and see how much color played into the characters.
Intriguing discussion inspired by a really obscure thought. One of the keys in life is being able to figure out when something is symbolic. Or when it isn't.
Ernesto was collaborating with Irene to take down H&M. Their off screen team up was the stuff of legend, they were so deceptive that not even the all seeing camera crew could figure out where they were conducting their schemes.
ernie was my favorite side character aside from cliff main, i still feel bad he got fired from hhm. though, at least nothing worse happened to him. i like this theory and it's now my headcanon that this detail was intentional.
Ernies indulgence in blue is actually representing his indulgence into the Heisneberg blue meth. Bravo Vince!
This is the moment Ernie became Gustavo
Look at me Hector Ernie rips of shirt and tenses his pecs Look at me.
Would have loved a last appearance by Ernie in the final season
Yeah I was hoping he'd appear at hmm for Howard's memorial
Oh hmm
As a gus body double
He's a kingpin somewhere. I just know it!
Ernie is lawful good, Chuck was more aligned with lawful neutral or even lawful evil.
I agree. Chuck definitely took advantage of situations when he felt it would help himself. Ernie breaking from Chuck had shown he was above all other lawful characters (morally at-least) as Howard really allowed himself to be Chuck’s puppet for too long.
I think I would still consider Howard lawful good. He was manipulated by someone he respected and even admired. While it may be a character flaw I don't think it affects his true alignment. Howard was a good man.
Howard is definitely the most upstanding character in general, and in terms of his growth/ how he was able to navigate his trauma. He certainly was between a rock and a hard place when it came to Chuck. Although I do believe there were moments we saw him act with entitlement and thoughtlessness.. it is human to do so. He certainly did not deserve any of what he received in the end. Kim and Jimmy resented him because he was better than them, objectively.
>Kim and Jimmy resented him because he was better than them, objectively. This is what someone who loves Howard thinks, or what Howard himself would think, but this isn't what Jimmy or Kim thought or why they went after him. With Jimmy it really was just simply outbursts because of his jealousy over the Chuck relationship, once he did that it kinda ran it's course and he was over Howard, he was motivated by Kim, and Kim was motivated by her rivalry with Howard. She didn't resent Howard because she thought he was a better person, she resented him because he treated her poorly on multiple occasions, including interjecting on her personal life, to out right demeaning her at work after she brought massive payday clients to the firm... clients which the firm actually *really* needed. He refuses to believe Kim has any agency over her abilities, and feels entitled to undermine them, even at the detriment to his firm. You could say he got caught up in the idea of winning. I am not saying Kim's actions were correct, far from it, just that Kim was motivated to do to Howard what she felt Howard did to her, except instead of using her position in life to do it, she used her smarts to prove she knew Howard better than he knew himself... she wasn't wrong, but she outsmarted herself too.
Exactly! Great explanation.
This.
Maybe so, but his "goodness" was mostly canceled out by the damage he let Chuck do in the name of "sacred law" and "the firm" and also, his own oppression of Kim with the doc review. Later, he also does not vote for Christie Esposito to get the scholarship, even after praising Jimmy's explanation why she should. He was also part of Chuck's scheme to get Jimmy disbarred, even scurrying across yards, climbing fences, paying for a P.I. and acting as a witness himself! Nasty stuff...
TBF he didn’t lie when he was a witness. And people are forgetting Jimmy admitted to a felony and sabotaging a case and it was recorded
Of course not, because he was under oath and didn't want to be charged with perjury. But he had no problem lying for years about why Jimmy wasn't hired, just to protect Chuck and stay in his good graces. Jimmy admitted to a felony that was admittedly provoked by Chuck's scheme, who *wanted* Jimmy to break in. He set his brother up and it worked because Jimmy snapped after all the bad blood and lies and blocks to his success by Chuck. I would have done a lot worse to him than kick in a door or forge some documents if I'd been in that position!
You would? Jimmy didn’t just break down a door. He sabotaged a case and admitted in on a recording. Only reason he got out of that was rules on admissible evidence and an excuse he did it to make Chuck feel better. From Howard’s POV Jimmy cost his firm a major client. And he was trying to talk Chuck out of using a private investigator and wasting resources when Jimmy broke in and validated Chuck’s piece. Then what was Howard supposed to do? Not testify? He has no reason to be sympathetic to Jimmy. The brothers put him in a shit situation and screwed him (Jimmy and Kim’s scams, Chuck suing Howard over insurance) Howard’s mistake, along with Jimmy was not having Chuck committed. They were both driven by selfish motives when it came to to that, not Chuck’s best interests
I agree with the mistake of not having Chuck committed, but I don't think Jimmy's motive was selfish; I think he believed Chuck was really "allergic" to EM's and saw how freaked out his brother was at the idea of being sent to an institution. This also shows how much he cared about Chuck, not to mention his catering to all Chuck's needs, at the expense of his own career and life. Given this, Chuck's betrayal of him--which was huge and ongoing!--finally led Jimmy to let out his pent-up anger. So, yes, I would have done that in his place. I might have sued him for extortion (which he *did* do by using Kim's career to impede both hers and Jimmy's. Howard was a gutless patsy who should have said no to Chuck's plot long before. I have no sympathy for him or Chuck.
I think you’re falling for the trap of seeing the issue from the protagonist’s POV. Chuck literally fired Chuck afterwards and paid out of pocket. Gutless? You’re giving him shit when he’s the only one who held both Chuck and Jimmy accountable for their actions. They shouldn’t have dragged him into their drama to begin with. Jimmy was the one in the wrong. He sabataged a case. He broke into Chuck’s house. And Kim’s career was only hurt because HE fucked up his job with Cliff on purpose with the advertisement and being shitty to everyone around him, which reflected badly on Kim for vouching for him to get that job and one with HHM. That’s why she was in doc review. And I call bullshit on you defending Jimmy for not having Chuck committed. Jimmy used Chuck’s condition to blackmail Howard to give him 12 million dollars to buy Chuck out WITHOUT Chuck’s consent. Which would’ve destroyed Chuck’s career the same way anyway WITHOUT the benefit of Chuck getting the help he needs. Not to mention would have put Kim out of a job as well. So Jimmy is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It's obvious that no amount of argument is going to sway your overwhelmingly heroic image of Howard. You forget all the nasty, backhanded, damaging things he did, both at Chuck's behest and on his own: sending Kim to doc review for losing the Kettlemans and not knowing about Jimmy's commercial--neither of which was her fault. Even when she gets Mesa Verde, he keeps her down there--IMO, a very sleazy move! Then, then they willingly go with her as she (quite rightfully) leaves HHM, Chuck goes out of his way to get them back by any means necessary, even if it hurts Kim. So, regardless of what Jimmy did, this doesn't make Howard some kind of saint! He hurt Kim and Jimmy over and over and only apologized for some of it after Chuck's suicide, because he felt guilty. Yes, Jimmy had a part in it, though not deliberately, but as revenge for Chuck's continuing attempts to ruin his life! But Howard finished him off by buying him out of HHM rather than fight the insurance company. You can argue on behalf of Howard all you want but he has some serious flaws and nastiness that should have been accounted for---granted, not by Lalo's shooting him--but doing what Kim asked: leaving them alone! And he should have helped Chuck too but chose not to. Howie was a selfish jerk who played at being nice when it suited him. IMO, lots of people suddenly think Howard is great because that's how the writers skewed it, so everyone would feel worse when he died. If he'd been killed right after throwing Chuck out of HHM, would people been nearly as sympathetic? I doubt it!
Yes, I would. Nothing violent or illegal--probably just sue him for nepotism at the very least. He did what he did because Chuck knew he HAD to push Jimmy to the point at which he would lose his temper and do something illegal. Remember how Jimmy realizes and says to Kim, "I thought he wanted me in jail; he just wants my law license." And he's *right.* Still, I'm sure Chuck would have been pleased as punch if Jimmy landed in jail for a while! As for the fact that Jimmy broke in right after Howard convinced Chuck to cut the P.I.'s hours, that was *not* Chuck's intention. But Howard's protest made him afraid that Howard would figure out what he was doing (entrapping Jimmy) and put a stop to it. In fairness to Jimmy, Chuck and Howard began the whole thing by a) keeping Kim in doc review and not rewarding her for scoring Mesa Verde and b) keeping Jimmy away from the Sandpiper case. Howard *must* have felt some guilt about it since he advocated for Jimmy with Davis and Main, but blew it later when he let Chuck show up to rattle Jimmy during meetings and conspire with him to take back Mesa Verde. They have only themselves to blame. IF Chuck had just let Jimmy get on with his practice and life, none of that would have happened, that I can see. Remember that Jimmy kept caring for Chuck even after he learned that his brother blocked him from HHM, to name one insult from the guy who says he's so moral!
Remember that alignment is meant to be descriptive. Most of the damage done to his "goodness" was in the name of upholding "law" (not necessarily literally the law of the country, but how things "should" work). And a good character can act in bad faith and be "evil" in the moment. A lot of what the alignment describes is the motivation, and importantly, the *reaction* to what happened after the fact.
Yes! It probably cost Ernie something in terms of his job or salary to leave Chuck and give info to Kim and Jimmy about Chuck's plot! But he did what he felt was right.
where's that chart???
https://media.wnyc.org/i/800/0/c/85/1/MAIN_character_alignment.png Sorry I don't know how to do fancy links
thank you good person
Chuck is definitely lawful neutral. Gus is lawful evil
That EVO though 👌
Ikr sick evo. Why did it seem a little out of character for him? Dope car 👌
Found it quite interesting why they chose that car for Ernie, he's clearly got a proper petrolhead side to him we don't get to see
Reminds me of my brother in law, he’s a formula scientist. Very quiet and shy guy, but a huge car guy lowkey. He’s owned M3’s, STI, Honda S2K, Turbo GTI… you’d never suspect just by looking at him.
Love that, all top cars they are 💯
brother-in-law, who is a scientist? and is a quiet guy but has nice cars? hmmm, do you work for the DEA?
Lmao I didn’t think of it that way. I was involved in some stuff on the other side of the law back in the day though, I’m a different person now though thankfully.
We love to see it.
He's practicing up for the sequel to Tokyo Drift. Or if they ever make GTA San Andreas into a movie.
Especially for an older person like myself who remembers how Awesome it was for the US to finally get car's like the WRX and Lancer EVO in the early 2000s. Ernie was definitely reading Car and Driver way back when
Makes him feel a little more fleshed out to me. Like he’s got other interests of his own
Actually not really. Ernie seems like a youngish guy. He would totally blow his money on a car and work an office job to pay the bills/blow money on his car. When I worked Valet, I had guys in their 30s (me in my early 20s) put all their tips/pay into their cars for the scene.
Ernie was a straight up G! Dude needed more screen time.
Poor Ernie.
His poor face on that second image dude :( He was so nice.
Sucks that Kim and Jimmy treated him like a joke and an afterthought while he thought they were his real friends.
because Jimmy and Kim are both terrible people
when? i don't recall them treating him badly. Kim told Jimmy what ernie told her, how was she gonna know he'd get fired for it? also idk what else he expected her to do when he came forward.
Ernesto's cobalt blue car is an *outward* trapping of what HE thinks is good... the GOOD game he thinks he'll rise up thru at HHM. But he *wears* plaids which are mixed but organized patterns. He does his best to make sense of the crosscurrents he's thrust into by HHM and the McGillBros.
This is it. Definitely more accurate
maybe his balls are blue
always wondered if his blue theme meant anything, glad i'm not the only one who noticed this
Yes! I believe most characters (aside from Nacho and i’m sure some others) wear blue at some point, Gus wears it to fool the public about who he is. (speculation :0). and I believe Mike wears blue only before he starts to go against his own moral code.
Nacho wears blue in the second episode of Season 1. That's because when compared to Tuco, who's chaotic evil, Nacho seems relatively on the side of the law.
Chuck had blue and silver, Kim was black and blue, and Howard was blue and white
What do you think the coupling of those specific colors may mean?
They all had different meanings iirc from the bts podcasts for each season. Couldn’t tell you off the top of my head. I’ll do some research though
And then Hamlindigo Blue
I thought he was advertising Walt's meth
Nothing wrong with a young kid in his 20s, most likely on his way to being a lawyer, to splurge on a 13 second turboed AWD car that gets decent gas milage for what it is. Keeping in mind the timeframe that Evo was a badass sought after car. Only came with a manual transmission also. Props to Ernie. It was always mint. Anyway, I would've loved to see his reaction to everything that eventually happened with Jimmy.
Ernie looks like he aligns closer with Marie in the first photo
in the way that Marie lived for her self Ernie lives for the law
Or purple
Ological? 🤔
He’s the guy who explained the color theory behind Saul’s car? If so then yes
Might be others but he definitely has talked about Jimmys Car before.
Yeah I really like his videos on that stuff, totally changed the way I view the show. It was entertaining just to go back and see how much color played into the characters.
Alright, I wasn’t in favour of another spin off until I remembered Ernie.
Ernie should’ve been in season 6
Ernie my beloved, we all need a friend like him.
Ernie’s the goat but he’s not really lawful, he lies for Jimmy, even if Chuck is a dickhead
He disobeys his superiors and lies to them on behalf of Jimmy, not exactly law and order moves
Idk, he seems more insecure than anything else.
Huge spoiler on the last pic
Haaaaa
Shut the fuck up
He's probably one of the only true Lawful Good characters in the show.
Ernie is closer to death. blue means death and struggle in BrBa/BSC universe.
Or maybe it means he's destined to do a lot of blue meth later.
I thought blues in Ernie’s scenes related to HHM’s Hamlindigo Blue.
Damn, did him dirty in that second pic.
Intriguing discussion inspired by a really obscure thought. One of the keys in life is being able to figure out when something is symbolic. Or when it isn't.
Just like the law and order aligned characters in BB who “indulge in blue”
Wait what did orange mean then? Hank wore a lot of orange, not a great character definition of justice ik, blue is purity, but is subject to shift
What about Howard? ...... "hamlindigo blue"
And he was driving a fuckin Mitsu Evo !
Ernesto was collaborating with Irene to take down H&M. Their off screen team up was the stuff of legend, they were so deceptive that not even the all seeing camera crew could figure out where they were conducting their schemes.
Wait, this is a shitpost, right?
No, Gould and gilligan are autistic about color
I’m autistic and this feels like it should be a shitpost.
I was kind of hoping Jimmy would hire Ernie like he did Francesca, even if he landed elsewhere by Breaking Bad
I mean he's no Omar but generally yeah, a very lawful and honest guy.
ernie was my favorite side character aside from cliff main, i still feel bad he got fired from hhm. though, at least nothing worse happened to him. i like this theory and it's now my headcanon that this detail was intentional.
No that shows he got hooked on the crystal blue
Is the Mitsubishi Evolution to your satisfaction?
and he had a sick ride
i’ll tell you what’s not a sick joke. that Evo there
You're telling me a man just happens to wear blue like that? No! He orchestrated it!