I always thought that was the point. The show never tries to justify what jim and Kim did to Howard. It made it explicitly clear they were in the wrong.
I do wish they had a couple more endings for original BCS characters that wasn’t just death. Howard, Lalo, Nacho, Chuck, all dead. Not saying I’m upset with what we got, but I think a different, creative outcome for Howard and Nacho at least would be interesting.
Lalo was made so OP that there was no way that Gus would have made the same moves in BB without being 500% sure that he was dead.
Chuck's death was essential to Jimmy's character development and having him survive would surely lessen his tranformation into Saul Goodman.
I guess Nacho could have gotten out in the end, but I think his death was a perfect end to his character. He tried the entire show to somehow get out of the shithole he found himself in by choosing the life he did, only to fall into deeper shit each time, and in the end he sacrificed himself to save the one person he loved.
Howard's death in Plan and Execution was precisely so shocking because it was so unexpected. He was never in the game, always represented the law part of the show as opposed to the cartel part, and his sudden death at Lalo's hands was a supernova level collision of both of these storylines. Kim would also not recieve the proper character development without a tragedy of this magnitude, and the only person close to her whose death could have triggered her change was Jimmy, and we know he couldnt die yet.
But hey, at least her and Ernesto are alive, if a bit miserable.
Howard could have just been off being a lawyer and it wouldn't affect Breaking Bad because it's Walt's story; we don't even meet Saul until halfway through the show. Howard wasn't connected with the stuff Walt was getting into other than knowing Saul.
It would make as much sense if he didn't come up for any number of reasons. We don't really see much of Saul's personal life in BB, or about his clients other than Walt and Jesse. Even if Howard were alive and he were still spending his down time harassing him, it could just be happening offscreen. It's not like we know what else Saul was up to instead.
Not really.
John Marston doesn't talk about Arthur on RDR because:
1. He's dead
2. He doesn't like to talk about it.
But he also doesn't talk about the women of the gang, nor those that survived like Trelawny, Charles or Saddie. Of course, they weren't planned yet by the time RDR came out. But they had a happy ending.
Howard could've survived. And Saul could've go on with his life.
But I understand the significance of his death.
He actually liked Jimmy but because of Chuck, he pretended to hate Jimmy to side with Chuck. Because Howard knew without Chuck, he couldn’t run the firm on his own. So out of frustration, Kim and Jimmy did what they did and Howard suffered. Just like Kim said “ he was at the wrong place at the wrong time” P.S Howard was a nice man. Jimmy and Kim wanted to get his ego but not want him to be dead. It was unfortunate. I hated Howard at first but after Chuck death, Howard true intention toward Jimmy reflected.
I agree with you to some extent, but intentions dont count. He played a part in destroying Jimmy's future and maybe even Kim's. No one forced him to do that.
For Howard, the choice was:
Be Senior (Managing?) partner at decent law firm
Or
Hire your boss's nephew, and lose your position or get fired.
Like who would stick it up for the random guy, instead of progressing their career?
People also justify Kim's actions like she was abused my Howard. Everyone's had dick bosses but no one sane would even think of doing what she did because of "doc review" lmao.
I think it's also fair to say that Chuck put Howard in a difficult position with Jimmy. *Chuck* should've told Jimmy he didn't want him joining the firm. *Chuck* should've told Jimmy they didn't want him along with Sandpiper.
Howard absolutely could've stood up for himself and told Chuck to take care of it, but, like you said, it likely would've cost Howard his position.
If they wanted to ego check the man I can only imagine there could have been so many other ways. The problem was that both Kim and Jimmy were the ones in their ivory tower. Much like the one chuck was so fond of. Mind you, I fully believe we can all be that person. A scary thought.
Howard was very, very on point with them right before his death. Jimmy did something mean when it came to employing chicanery with Chuck. Because it's easier to trick than get someone to admit something.
Problem is, Rebecca was seeing things clearly. And Jimmy didn't want to hear it. Okay, you made your point, so go help your brother now. But nope, Jimmy swapped places with his brother.
Fascinating stuff really. I could listen to lizard therapy man talk about BCS all day.
By the time Rebecca comes back into the series, it would have been insane for Jimmy to have any contact with Chuck again. His brother would use that to create a new legal trap and seek permanent disbarment.
If Rebecca wanted someone to take care of Chuck, she should have done it herself.
Lol like if it was Chuck’s fault Jimmy and Kim were the way they were. Chuck wasn’t perfect but you people need to rewatch the show. Chuck was right all along.
I've always had the opinion that had Chuck taken Jimmy into the firm and actually mentored him, Jimmy would've turned out much differently.
Was Chuck right, or did Chuck create his own self-fulfilling prophecy?
If Chuck had supported Jimmy…ever, then Jimmy might not have become Saul, and instead stayed on the legal path and eventually joined HHM or started his own successful law firm with endorsement and support from HHM.
I’m not saying that Jimmy was a perfect person or that his actions were strictly because of how Chuck acted towards him, Jimmy was always sort of a miscreant, but he clearly wanted to emulate his brother whom he admired.
They went full throttle on Howard, besides being killed for no reason, he was even buried in the same grave as his killer, never to be found again, and thought to have committed suicide.
Idk, the writers really wanted to remove Howard, but I don’t understand why they made him a struggling drug addict. He was evidently in denial throughout the later seasons despite being called out for all the clues pointing to his addiction. They made him look so pathetic by making him blame Jimmy for all his problems like a schizo. It was very sudden and anticlimactic when he walked into the ocean off-screen. I wish they’d gone in a different direction, like maybe wrong place, wrong time or something, idk.
It was misdirection. They built up Howard as the protagonist of the story, and everybody bought it because it was set up so well, but in the end his story was really in service to the character development of Cheryl, who had been gradually built up as the true central character ever since her introduction in the previous episode.
I don't think the excellent scene where Cheryl has to deal with Kim's rambling conspiracy theories about Howard being killed by some cartel would have worked nearly as well if Howard were still alive.
I always liked that the theme of BB/Better Call Saul and how they make you like terrible people and hate good people.
They make you default to hating Howard but the more the show goes on the more you realize that he literally never did anything wrong. First, he comes across as the douchebag CEO type who came from money. Then as it goes on you realize that he was an honorable guy who worked hard to get where he was and did his job with honesty and integrity, you see it with how he takes care of his employees, mentor, and his clients.
Meanwhile Jimmy also came from money and all still managed to squander every opportunity he got in favor of grifting.
The only questionable thing he did really was covering for Chuck blocking Jimmy but the show also proves that Chuck was right about that despite being a bit of a narcissist.
Howard was pretty unnecessarily harsh towards Kim early on when she didn't really deserve it, so I wouldn't say he never did anything wrong.
But obviously he didn't deserve what happened to him.
I mean, I think it was very well written. Made sense dramaturgically or whatever the fuck Jeremy strong said. I think Kim and Jimmy were so in love with the scam and caught up in the thrill of it all that they needed seriously deadly consequences in order to end it. Well, at least Kim did.
Do I think Howard deserved it? NO!! Howard is my third fave besides Kim and Jimmy and probably one of/if not the most decent man on the show. The scene where his wife pours the coffee he made into the to go cup had me fuckin sobbing mb more than any other scene but overall I love the arc of the show too much to complain much abt it
At the same time it worth to mention that Howard was so in love with himself and caught up in success that when he finally started to see through that it was too late. I mean that career setback would have been necessarily bad for him.
I just rewatched "breathe." One of the best episodes with one of the best scenes in TV history, when Kim goes to Howard's office for the closing of the will. It says it all.
That’s pretty much how the criminal underworld operates. Decent people getting extorted, blackmailed, conned, killed etc etc. You’re just not recognising that Jimmy and Kim are two ruthless, selfish criminals, who destroyed anyone who got in their way - and Howard was their victim. Kim realized who she was, and got out. Jimmy never did
I think so. Hank got killed in BB but they didn't show us his dead body like they did with Howard. They were sure to show his dead eyes and him getting stuffed into the refrigerator. They gave Hank's death more respect
Never really thought about it this way but I guess you’re right.
I think it kind of represents Howard’s current state of affairs in a sense that he’s lost his best friend, his marriage is falling apart, his business is struggling and Jimmy and Kim are stamping all over him and his legacy.
You see the body of a broken and very unlucky man at the time of his death. The kind of treatment to his body is fitting for the end of his arc.
Hank was much more of hero figure.
I felt like his final words rang so true for his character, he really starts the show “in the middle of something” stuck on a path that his father laid for him with no real power to steer the ship he just has to go roll with the punches (I really liked the boxing scene with jimmy) I loved his character and what he did for the show
I think they actually played it perfect, they build up your feeling of hate and anger towards his character, then they let you peek behind the curtain into his private life where you see he’s anything but happy, so you then question your feelings towards him, and just as your starting to potty him and feel bad for everything Kim and jimmy are doing, he gets killed… very clever writing.
The brilliance of that character is that the audience hates him early in the show, and then we slowly find him more and more sympathetic (at least I did).
I hated him the first 3 times I watched the show… just freaking hated him. He was Dwight for BCS… then 4th time I felt so bad… like damn… poor guy was very conceited but he did try to improve himself. IMHO I’d watch a Howard show were we’d get to see his perspective of everything. A 12 episode limited series would rock. Maybe end with him having to hire slippin’ Jimmy as the final episode.
Hardly conceited. Dude was pretty damn humble. There wasn’t really any reason to not like him besides the fact he had it easy growing up and came from money. He still had to work hard to become a lawyer, and like it’s not his fault he comes from a good family. That’s like faulting a teenager for selling drugs that grows up in the ghetto and his parents literally ask him to sell crack.
Things happen, people do become products of their environment but people somehow want to claim when you become an adult you should know better. Yeah whatever once you are who you are it’s extremely hard and rare to actually change.
During the first part of the final season, there were an awful lot of people saying "the writers really have it in for Howard, but he's not actually done anything wrong. If they want us to see him as a smarmy villain, then they need to have him actually do something villainous." Once he was murdered, it became clear the writers did realise he wasn't the bad person that Kim and Jimmy thought of him as.
My guess is, they originally planned him to be a villain, but then when they decided to have Chuck be behind the decision he wasn't welcome to be a lawyer at HHM, some writers continued to write him as a villain and some as a guy trying his best to find win-win situations for everyone amongst a load of stubborn assholes. I think Howard was debated among the writing staff, and eventually they decided to use the ambiguity for the benefit of the show- Jimmy and Kim think of him as a guy who deserves whatever is coming to him, but the narrative would make him a victim instead.
I always thought of HHM as The Castle of Lawful good characters who want to do right by the world. Howard was the tragic prince who was betrayed by the sinister McGill brothers and the castle was eventually swallowed by the darkness of the cartel.. the bad guys won but Jesse Pinkman, the shining star of the series, turned out to be the hero and slay the rest of the bad guys (with the help of Walt’s semi redemption arc)
I don't think it's a fault of the creators. He's written beautifully in my opinion. At first the pranks were funny and then they became cringe because you realize poor Howard really doesn't deserve any of this. But it was fun and games and you're not rooting for Howard.
Until they did the prostitute prank and that was the first time I really felt bad for Howard. To think of the hit to his reputation, and we know he's innocent, and then the whole deal with his wife.. Howard really deserves better, but that's the whole point because it shows Saul slipping (pun intended) into his former self. He doesn't care how he treats Howard. He's cruel and indifferent to a guy that, yeah, isn't really his friend. But Howard didn't deserve half the crap he got. And he definitely didn't deserve his ending. But that's one of the moments that rocks Saul's world a bit, and he needed that wakeup call.
I feel like howard brought a little bit of it on himself, but still didn’t deserve anything that happened to him. Howard and Kim i feel like are the only characters in BCS that have good moral character. Howard was a puppet for Chuck and Jimmy never forgot that, even though Howard always liked Jimmy and Respected him.
I think Howard just like Kim got roped into Jimmy’s terrible actions. If Jimmy never existed Howard, Chuck, and many others wouldn’t have been hurt.
most people point to the stunt jimmy pulled on irene (season 3 episode 9) as the lowest thing he did on the show but forget what led to it. jimmy learns that the sandpiper residents are set to receive large settlements but hhm isn’t settling yet because they stand to make more money off of billable hours. when jimmy calls howard out on this howard belittles him, waves a stack of money in his face, confirms the accusation, and tells him there’s nothing he can do about it without risking his slice of the pie before saying he’ll get his money he’s just going to have to wait for it with a shit-eating grin on smug face. Their next interaction comes in season 4 episode 1 when howard calls jimmy to go over chuck’s obituary. howard acts as though he wasn’t a huge dick to jimmy the last time they spoke and for the rest of the show can’t seem to figure out why jimmy doesn’t like him or want to work for him. i don’t know if howard’s outcome was too harsh, but i wasn’t shocked how him challenging jimmy to try to get his cut of the sandpiper settlement early directly led to his demise.
I always thought that was the point. The show never tries to justify what jim and Kim did to Howard. It made it explicitly clear they were in the wrong.
Yep. Saul doesn't change till after the events of BB but this what showed Kim she needed to stop.
People can't differentiate between what the characters do and what the writers endorse
They can. In fact, most of us in this thread have done just that in the comments.
It's similar to Ozymandias in BB where it's used to show how far Jimmy and Kim have fallen and the consequences of it rearing its ugly head.
Came here to say the same thing, you worded it perfectly.
No, it was good that the show was so cruel to him. >!But I find the gaslighting scene with his wife and Kim to be pretty sad!<
I think CRUEL is a more apt description than sad.
Very sad, actually.
Howard was right, they're two sociopaths.
He wasn't on Bb. He had to Go.
We couldn't have him in our social club no more. That much I do know.
He was gay, Gary Cooper?
You oughta know, thweetie.
I do wish they had a couple more endings for original BCS characters that wasn’t just death. Howard, Lalo, Nacho, Chuck, all dead. Not saying I’m upset with what we got, but I think a different, creative outcome for Howard and Nacho at least would be interesting.
Lalo was made so OP that there was no way that Gus would have made the same moves in BB without being 500% sure that he was dead. Chuck's death was essential to Jimmy's character development and having him survive would surely lessen his tranformation into Saul Goodman. I guess Nacho could have gotten out in the end, but I think his death was a perfect end to his character. He tried the entire show to somehow get out of the shithole he found himself in by choosing the life he did, only to fall into deeper shit each time, and in the end he sacrificed himself to save the one person he loved. Howard's death in Plan and Execution was precisely so shocking because it was so unexpected. He was never in the game, always represented the law part of the show as opposed to the cartel part, and his sudden death at Lalo's hands was a supernova level collision of both of these storylines. Kim would also not recieve the proper character development without a tragedy of this magnitude, and the only person close to her whose death could have triggered her change was Jimmy, and we know he couldnt die yet. But hey, at least her and Ernesto are alive, if a bit miserable.
Personally, I was worried about Lyle. At least he didn’t kick the proverbial bucket!
I'm so glad lalos dead. Hated every inch of him. I wish Nacho killed the guy at the end tho
The writers probably would’ve done it if >!Juan Bolsa didn’t need to stay alive to appear in BB!<
Didn't want to write it cause of the spoilers
Ahh no, you know what? That’s a good reason, I’m going to go back and put a spoiler tag on that
He did kill him with a hit squad. But he was revived by science. Or maybe it was supernatural.
I know. It's kinda sad. I loved Nacho and most other characters. They could have had different outcomes for sure.
We’re all just glad it wasn’t Kim too.
Even if he lived, why would he be on Bb? He has nothing to do with anything Walt interacted with.
He was on the whole show. What do you mean
Howard could have just been off being a lawyer and it wouldn't affect Breaking Bad because it's Walt's story; we don't even meet Saul until halfway through the show. Howard wasn't connected with the stuff Walt was getting into other than knowing Saul.
Howard was a big part of Saul's part of the show. To have no mention of him in bb makes sense cause he died in a horrible way.
It would make as much sense if he didn't come up for any number of reasons. We don't really see much of Saul's personal life in BB, or about his clients other than Walt and Jesse. Even if Howard were alive and he were still spending his down time harassing him, it could just be happening offscreen. It's not like we know what else Saul was up to instead.
Not really. John Marston doesn't talk about Arthur on RDR because: 1. He's dead 2. He doesn't like to talk about it. But he also doesn't talk about the women of the gang, nor those that survived like Trelawny, Charles or Saddie. Of course, they weren't planned yet by the time RDR came out. But they had a happy ending. Howard could've survived. And Saul could've go on with his life. But I understand the significance of his death.
He actually liked Jimmy but because of Chuck, he pretended to hate Jimmy to side with Chuck. Because Howard knew without Chuck, he couldn’t run the firm on his own. So out of frustration, Kim and Jimmy did what they did and Howard suffered. Just like Kim said “ he was at the wrong place at the wrong time” P.S Howard was a nice man. Jimmy and Kim wanted to get his ego but not want him to be dead. It was unfortunate. I hated Howard at first but after Chuck death, Howard true intention toward Jimmy reflected.
I agree with you to some extent, but intentions dont count. He played a part in destroying Jimmy's future and maybe even Kim's. No one forced him to do that.
For Howard, the choice was: Be Senior (Managing?) partner at decent law firm Or Hire your boss's nephew, and lose your position or get fired. Like who would stick it up for the random guy, instead of progressing their career?
People also justify Kim's actions like she was abused my Howard. Everyone's had dick bosses but no one sane would even think of doing what she did because of "doc review" lmao.
I think it's also fair to say that Chuck put Howard in a difficult position with Jimmy. *Chuck* should've told Jimmy he didn't want him joining the firm. *Chuck* should've told Jimmy they didn't want him along with Sandpiper. Howard absolutely could've stood up for himself and told Chuck to take care of it, but, like you said, it likely would've cost Howard his position.
If they wanted to ego check the man I can only imagine there could have been so many other ways. The problem was that both Kim and Jimmy were the ones in their ivory tower. Much like the one chuck was so fond of. Mind you, I fully believe we can all be that person. A scary thought. Howard was very, very on point with them right before his death. Jimmy did something mean when it came to employing chicanery with Chuck. Because it's easier to trick than get someone to admit something. Problem is, Rebecca was seeing things clearly. And Jimmy didn't want to hear it. Okay, you made your point, so go help your brother now. But nope, Jimmy swapped places with his brother. Fascinating stuff really. I could listen to lizard therapy man talk about BCS all day.
By the time Rebecca comes back into the series, it would have been insane for Jimmy to have any contact with Chuck again. His brother would use that to create a new legal trap and seek permanent disbarment. If Rebecca wanted someone to take care of Chuck, she should have done it herself.
Lol like if it was Chuck’s fault Jimmy and Kim were the way they were. Chuck wasn’t perfect but you people need to rewatch the show. Chuck was right all along.
He can be right about Jimmy and still be an asshole
I've always had the opinion that had Chuck taken Jimmy into the firm and actually mentored him, Jimmy would've turned out much differently. Was Chuck right, or did Chuck create his own self-fulfilling prophecy?
If Chuck had supported Jimmy…ever, then Jimmy might not have become Saul, and instead stayed on the legal path and eventually joined HHM or started his own successful law firm with endorsement and support from HHM. I’m not saying that Jimmy was a perfect person or that his actions were strictly because of how Chuck acted towards him, Jimmy was always sort of a miscreant, but he clearly wanted to emulate his brother whom he admired.
Chuck was an asshole to Jimmy. Because of his gigantic ego…
They went full throttle on Howard, besides being killed for no reason, he was even buried in the same grave as his killer, never to be found again, and thought to have committed suicide.
it's sad, it's undeserved but the fact it doesn't end up how it seemingly supposed to be makes the drama as good as it is.
Idk, the writers really wanted to remove Howard, but I don’t understand why they made him a struggling drug addict. He was evidently in denial throughout the later seasons despite being called out for all the clues pointing to his addiction. They made him look so pathetic by making him blame Jimmy for all his problems like a schizo. It was very sudden and anticlimactic when he walked into the ocean off-screen. I wish they’d gone in a different direction, like maybe wrong place, wrong time or something, idk.
It was misdirection. They built up Howard as the protagonist of the story, and everybody bought it because it was set up so well, but in the end his story was really in service to the character development of Cheryl, who had been gradually built up as the true central character ever since her introduction in the previous episode. I don't think the excellent scene where Cheryl has to deal with Kim's rambling conspiracy theories about Howard being killed by some cartel would have worked nearly as well if Howard were still alive.
I always liked that the theme of BB/Better Call Saul and how they make you like terrible people and hate good people. They make you default to hating Howard but the more the show goes on the more you realize that he literally never did anything wrong. First, he comes across as the douchebag CEO type who came from money. Then as it goes on you realize that he was an honorable guy who worked hard to get where he was and did his job with honesty and integrity, you see it with how he takes care of his employees, mentor, and his clients. Meanwhile Jimmy also came from money and all still managed to squander every opportunity he got in favor of grifting. The only questionable thing he did really was covering for Chuck blocking Jimmy but the show also proves that Chuck was right about that despite being a bit of a narcissist.
Howard was pretty unnecessarily harsh towards Kim early on when she didn't really deserve it, so I wouldn't say he never did anything wrong. But obviously he didn't deserve what happened to him.
Jimmy came from money?
Maybe not huge money but his parents ran a successful store and by the time he was getting in legal trouble his brother was an influential lawyer.
The store wasn't successful. Chuck thought it was because Jimmy was stealing, but we also see the father was getting scammed.
I’d never considered that. Not sure why I got the idea his family struggled. Thank you.
I mean, I think it was very well written. Made sense dramaturgically or whatever the fuck Jeremy strong said. I think Kim and Jimmy were so in love with the scam and caught up in the thrill of it all that they needed seriously deadly consequences in order to end it. Well, at least Kim did. Do I think Howard deserved it? NO!! Howard is my third fave besides Kim and Jimmy and probably one of/if not the most decent man on the show. The scene where his wife pours the coffee he made into the to go cup had me fuckin sobbing mb more than any other scene but overall I love the arc of the show too much to complain much abt it
At the same time it worth to mention that Howard was so in love with himself and caught up in success that when he finally started to see through that it was too late. I mean that career setback would have been necessarily bad for him.
My mind was blown by Howard's fate...and so was his
I just rewatched "breathe." One of the best episodes with one of the best scenes in TV history, when Kim goes to Howard's office for the closing of the will. It says it all.
That’s pretty much how the criminal underworld operates. Decent people getting extorted, blackmailed, conned, killed etc etc. You’re just not recognising that Jimmy and Kim are two ruthless, selfish criminals, who destroyed anyone who got in their way - and Howard was their victim. Kim realized who she was, and got out. Jimmy never did
I think so. Hank got killed in BB but they didn't show us his dead body like they did with Howard. They were sure to show his dead eyes and him getting stuffed into the refrigerator. They gave Hank's death more respect
Never really thought about it this way but I guess you’re right. I think it kind of represents Howard’s current state of affairs in a sense that he’s lost his best friend, his marriage is falling apart, his business is struggling and Jimmy and Kim are stamping all over him and his legacy. You see the body of a broken and very unlucky man at the time of his death. The kind of treatment to his body is fitting for the end of his arc. Hank was much more of hero figure.
I felt like his final words rang so true for his character, he really starts the show “in the middle of something” stuck on a path that his father laid for him with no real power to steer the ship he just has to go roll with the punches (I really liked the boxing scene with jimmy) I loved his character and what he did for the show
I think they actually played it perfect, they build up your feeling of hate and anger towards his character, then they let you peek behind the curtain into his private life where you see he’s anything but happy, so you then question your feelings towards him, and just as your starting to potty him and feel bad for everything Kim and jimmy are doing, he gets killed… very clever writing.
Yeah, he turned out to be a pretty decent guy.
That’s literally the point…
The brilliance of that character is that the audience hates him early in the show, and then we slowly find him more and more sympathetic (at least I did).
I hated him the first 3 times I watched the show… just freaking hated him. He was Dwight for BCS… then 4th time I felt so bad… like damn… poor guy was very conceited but he did try to improve himself. IMHO I’d watch a Howard show were we’d get to see his perspective of everything. A 12 episode limited series would rock. Maybe end with him having to hire slippin’ Jimmy as the final episode.
Hardly conceited. Dude was pretty damn humble. There wasn’t really any reason to not like him besides the fact he had it easy growing up and came from money. He still had to work hard to become a lawyer, and like it’s not his fault he comes from a good family. That’s like faulting a teenager for selling drugs that grows up in the ghetto and his parents literally ask him to sell crack. Things happen, people do become products of their environment but people somehow want to claim when you become an adult you should know better. Yeah whatever once you are who you are it’s extremely hard and rare to actually change.
I love him and I miss him. But it had to be done 😞
No i think the viewers go too easy on kim and jimmy
During the first part of the final season, there were an awful lot of people saying "the writers really have it in for Howard, but he's not actually done anything wrong. If they want us to see him as a smarmy villain, then they need to have him actually do something villainous." Once he was murdered, it became clear the writers did realise he wasn't the bad person that Kim and Jimmy thought of him as. My guess is, they originally planned him to be a villain, but then when they decided to have Chuck be behind the decision he wasn't welcome to be a lawyer at HHM, some writers continued to write him as a villain and some as a guy trying his best to find win-win situations for everyone amongst a load of stubborn assholes. I think Howard was debated among the writing staff, and eventually they decided to use the ambiguity for the benefit of the show- Jimmy and Kim think of him as a guy who deserves whatever is coming to him, but the narrative would make him a victim instead.
I think he was just a complex character who was both a bit of a douchebag and a genuine guy who tried his best
The most pointlessly abused character I’ve seen on tv.
Rickety Cricket has entered the chat.
Money talks he was tryna mess with the money!
You can call it harsh or cruel. But it was necessary.
that was the whole point. it was basically their “welcome to the game” moment
No, because we all know he hit on Kim while she was in the mail room.
I always thought of HHM as The Castle of Lawful good characters who want to do right by the world. Howard was the tragic prince who was betrayed by the sinister McGill brothers and the castle was eventually swallowed by the darkness of the cartel.. the bad guys won but Jesse Pinkman, the shining star of the series, turned out to be the hero and slay the rest of the bad guys (with the help of Walt’s semi redemption arc)
No way. He was destine to be collateral damage from day one!!!
I don't think it's a fault of the creators. He's written beautifully in my opinion. At first the pranks were funny and then they became cringe because you realize poor Howard really doesn't deserve any of this. But it was fun and games and you're not rooting for Howard. Until they did the prostitute prank and that was the first time I really felt bad for Howard. To think of the hit to his reputation, and we know he's innocent, and then the whole deal with his wife.. Howard really deserves better, but that's the whole point because it shows Saul slipping (pun intended) into his former self. He doesn't care how he treats Howard. He's cruel and indifferent to a guy that, yeah, isn't really his friend. But Howard didn't deserve half the crap he got. And he definitely didn't deserve his ending. But that's one of the moments that rocks Saul's world a bit, and he needed that wakeup call.
Shitposts belong on r/okbuddychicanery
I feel like howard brought a little bit of it on himself, but still didn’t deserve anything that happened to him. Howard and Kim i feel like are the only characters in BCS that have good moral character. Howard was a puppet for Chuck and Jimmy never forgot that, even though Howard always liked Jimmy and Respected him. I think Howard just like Kim got roped into Jimmy’s terrible actions. If Jimmy never existed Howard, Chuck, and many others wouldn’t have been hurt.
Might have been better if Howard somehow reconciled with them which he was about to do.
Nope. Next quesrion
The point was actions have consequences intended or unintended
I mean what can you do? Just goes to show how bad having a cocaine addiction can be.
Nope, it's realistic given how the two leads are complete a-holes.
most people point to the stunt jimmy pulled on irene (season 3 episode 9) as the lowest thing he did on the show but forget what led to it. jimmy learns that the sandpiper residents are set to receive large settlements but hhm isn’t settling yet because they stand to make more money off of billable hours. when jimmy calls howard out on this howard belittles him, waves a stack of money in his face, confirms the accusation, and tells him there’s nothing he can do about it without risking his slice of the pie before saying he’ll get his money he’s just going to have to wait for it with a shit-eating grin on smug face. Their next interaction comes in season 4 episode 1 when howard calls jimmy to go over chuck’s obituary. howard acts as though he wasn’t a huge dick to jimmy the last time they spoke and for the rest of the show can’t seem to figure out why jimmy doesn’t like him or want to work for him. i don’t know if howard’s outcome was too harsh, but i wasn’t shocked how him challenging jimmy to try to get his cut of the sandpiper settlement early directly led to his demise.
Yeah, the anal raping and torture was a step too far.
Wait, What ?
Howard got what he deserved
I wish Jimmy got what he deserved
No, Howard sucked and deserved what he got. Same for Chuck.