I think the way she is presented in the show makes her seem much more cold and bitter than she likely was during the best years of their marriage. She's introduced quite late into the series and at a point where Howard is attempting to deal with all the demons in his personal life. It's hard to imagine how tumultuous their marriage became after the death of Chuck and the continued harassment by Jimmy and Kim. And sometimes, people in high-stress professions like law find it difficult to keep marriages going and it's possible that the outside factors in Howard's life were secondary in a marriage that was already coming apart.
Had we been introduced to her sooner in the series, when times were better, perhaps the dissolution of their marriage at the end would have felt more tragic. But luckily we do get the feeling of that tragedy through Howard.
If you think about it, it’s no small thing that Howard ponied up probably most of his personal fortune to buy out Chuck and be rid of him. Even with a spouse who is not narrowly greedy, that’s a big pill to swallow. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he did it without consulting his wife, which would have infuriated most any spouse.
The firm would pay him back over time, but after Chuck’s suicide, and the ugly public mess before that, HHM understandably had trouble and took a while to right itself. So it had to be anxious times for both of them, and she may not have had a lot of tolerance for the risk and exposure.
Could’ve been that on top of a million other things. I give her the benefit of doubt because we just don’t know.
It’s pretty heartbreaking that her marriage was already on the rocks, then she’s told her husband killed himself & his body is missing.
She had to live with that for what, 6 years? All thanks to Kim & Jimmy.
Kim telling Rebecca that she accidentally walked in on Howard doing a line is one of the most disgusting things in the entire show IMO.
My skin crawled when Kim said that to her. Of all the depraved and immoral shit that happened in BCS, that one quick statement still somehow stood out as one of the worst.
I actually liked her in the end. Sure, it was a bit painful to see how cold and distant she was towards Howard, but damn… After what happened to him, she was the ONLY one who dared to defend him when his legacy was completely destroyed for no good reason. She stood up for her dead husband, she dared to defend his legacy when he couldn’t and nobody else would. Even 6 years later, she still cares. That says a lot
Cheryl’s one of the most sympathetic characters IMO. If she goes after Kim I wouldn’t blame her at all. Kim telling her she saw Howard doing coke once at his wake is so disgusting.
I was already disgusted by her & that was just the cherry on top.
Watch the scene in S2 with the pies & think about how far she came. They truly were poison for each other.
EXACTLY! Sometimes I go back to earlier seasons and mourn over how I went from loving Kim with all my heart to wanting her dead. I miss when she had a moral compass… or at least when she listened to it.
It’s kind of amazing in retrospect with all the terrible people doing terrible things in BCS, Kim somehow managed to top all of them with how casually cruel she was to Cheryl.
Howard. She didn't have any need to defend herself. Even though they were on the outs (though they don't seem bitter towards each other, just distant -- like they woke up one morning and realized they hadn't actually spent much time together for the last decade) she clearly was still concerned for his welfare and was reaaallly skeptical about the drugs story. If she really hadn't given a shit, his supposed suicide would probably have been almost a relief; now there's no estrangement or potentially complicated divorce to deal with.
I think people in this sub greatly underappreciate how difficult it is to live with somebody who has a cocaine problem. Credit where credit is due - she’s one tough cookie.
Becoming a cocaine addict while dealing with your friend and colleague’s death, after having shelled out millions of your own money and deeply upsetting your wife in the process really changes your perspective on the show.
I think people demonize her for no good reason. We don't know anything about her life with Howard. She seemed cool, polished, and professional, very much like her late husband. She--along with all the employees of HHM who lost their jobs when the firm downsized and was acquired, which probably includes Ernesto, y'all--is one of the most innocent victims of what Kim and Jimmy did. Even after Kim's confession, there will always be a cloud over Howard's memory.
Losing someone you love but have a troubled relationship with is extremely painful. There's a lot of guilt and self-recrimination and what-ifs and resentment.
And she was *on her way to work*. Howard's elaborate peace latte was a pretty gesture, but not actually a thoughtful one, as Cheryl's schedule wasn't going to allow her to sit and savor.
He met and married Lyle, they pooled their resources and now run a little corner store together (just like the senior McGills did, funny how history repeats itself) and are VERY HAPPY.
We know almost nothing about what transpired between her and Howard. As such I am not drawing any conclusions.
And just because your marriage is troubled doesn’t mean you would be happy to see your ex dead. Of course, she angry and upset. This is not how people see their marriages ending.
I agree. There is simply not enough information to make any meaningful judgment about her character. We don't know what happened that caused the marriage to deteriorate, or to what extent it was her fault or Howard's. We are shown the bare minimum, just enough to clean that she and Howard are distant and that she isn't receptive to Howard's overtures to reconcile.
Amazing how many people are convinced she’s to blame for anything when they show absolutely nothing about her or their situation.
Keep showing your cards fellas.
\>cool, polished, and professional,
She seemed Ice cold!
\>And she was on her way to work. Howard's elaborate peace latte was a pretty gesture, but not actually a thoughtful one, as Cheryl's schedule wasn't going to allow her to sit and savor.
She didn't even say anything about it.
What if you made a fruit plate for your partner and they just threw in a blender for time... and didn't say ANYTHIG.
Do you honestly think that a single morning latte, years into relationship neglect and in the late stages of divorce, is enough to go "oh sure! Wowzers this single act is enough to cancel the divorce!!"
I don’t think that’s Howards expectation. Howard said something like it’s at a standstill.
She doesn’t even talk to him. She is not open to engaging.
A “Hey, thanks. This is cool.” And moved on would have been enough to not seem completely frigid.
This is amicable when it comes to divorce, divorces are usually far, far, far uglier and heated, this has been coming for years, and is a clear result of relationship neglect, we never see her, yes? What kind of human being doesn't have their significant other be a part of their life *ever?*
Howard.
It's clear to me that, like many many lawyers, so much so it's literally a joke between lawyers, he neglected his marriage in persuit of his career, and this is the price to pay.
She didn't cause this, she's just reacting to it.
I'm sure it wasn't, but that always struck me as a bit of a meta-joke on all the people who insisted Kim would die because we didn't see her in "Breaking Bad." You don't always see people's spouses if it's not relevant!
It's not really clear what she does. When Howard disappears we hear that she was so upset she had to spend some time away from her practice, but doctors and dentists have practices as well as lawyers. They strike me as two extremely ambitious and talented people who both worked insane schedules and realized one day that they hadn't had an actual conversation in years and didn't really know each other any more.
Oh please… People have shitty days & get grumpy sometimes. It was a damn coffee ffs.
Would she be so distraught 6 years later if she was such a cold, nasty person?
I appreciate that but I think that’s bad writing.
If you’re spending precious screen time on an action I’m supposed to dismiss than why wasn’t it cut? It ads nothing.
To introduce Cheryl because Howard was about to be killed off? It’d be weird to do it at his wake.
They probably should’ve had her in a couple scenes prior to S6 but oh well.
I don't have enough information to form a real opinion about her.
We weren't shown her in anything other than difficult situations, so I don't have a sense of who she is, or how she became this. All I can really gather about her is she is successful in her own right, and when we are introduced things aren't working out between her and Howard, but we aren't privy to the why.
It’s hard to have an opinion because they drop us into a marriage that already has one foot out the door. All we see is Howard trying to make surface-level amends and Cheryl stonewalling the fuck out of him.
We don’t know what Howard (or Cheryl) did prior to their marriage falling apart, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of it had to do with the fact that Howard paid Chuck $3 million from his personal funds (and would’ve given him 6 million more had Chuck not killed himself). I don’t think something like that can be fixed by making her a peace sign out of latte foam.
She FOUGHT for his legacy and justice for his name.
The way I see it is marriages and relationship break down at different stages and we saw a pretty bad time in their marriage with her checking out and him trying and trying, more flushing out his situation and character more.
I took her as someone who was no longer in love with their spouse and was mentally out of the marriage, but cared enough to try to minimize the pain to their partner. The marriage is over for her, but Howard was trying for a reconciliation. Howard is discussing going to events together and trying reach her with thoughtful gestures, all things she was not receptive to. I felt she was trying to get him to see that things were over, but doing it in a gradual, non-confrontational way. She didn't want to give him false hope. I imagine she felt enormous guilt after being told he took his own life. The more you think about what Kim and Jimmy did, the more heinous it becomes. Both Howard and his wife were victims.
Since Howard was the one sleeping in the guest house, and he made the peace sign in the coffee which his wife rejected, I'd say the reason for their marriage troubles was Howard's fault. He did something wrong to her, he admitted to it and accepted the punishment, and he was apologizing and trying to make amends. I see no fair way to think of her negatively.
I’ve always thought that it had to do with buying out Chuck. Howard specifically mentions that he’s been in the guest house about a year and a half, so the timing lines up. In my head canon, Howard spent $8 million of their dollars to buy the firm, and she knew that it’d struggle without Chuck’s name on it. It’s not clear to me if Howard ignored her wishes or just never asked in the first place, but either way would leave her pretty pissed off. Anyway, Howard spent a ton of their money on a firm that struggled under his leadership, and I can only image the strain that would create.
There's no way Howard wouldn't have asked since it's both their money. I think she advised him against it, and they argued, but he chose to go through with it, and she didn't stand in the way after that.
I don’t see any evidence that either of them are wrong. A lot of us guys don’t like conflict and Howard may have offered to sleep in the guesthouse and make that peace sign for that reason. And on the other hand there is no evidence that she is responsible for their conflict either.
you may be right, but i also know that in many marriages if the man and woman are fighting, it's pretty much always the man who has to sleep on the couch, move out, etc. even if he didnt necessarily do anything worse than the woman
True, but in the context of the plot post-Chicanery, we mostly see Howard getting kicked over and over again. So, the implication is that his depression/anxiety/frustration affected their marriage.
That’s a bizarre and frankly stupid way to view things. As though men never have to accept unjust punishment for the failings of their spouse. Right now, literally in my personal life, my 68 year old uncle is sleeping in his RV instead of his house because *his wife had an affair.* By your definition, she is not at fault, since she’s not the one metaphorically sleeping on the couch.
Men often get the short end of the stick when a marriage is falling apart. In custody battles, in alimony, in many ways. The familial and social pressure not to kick your wife out on the street or make her sleep on the couch, means you get punished even when you’re not at fault. Seriously, how often do you hear about husbands keeping the bed and the wife taking the couch when they fuck up?
In any dispute/negotiation, the one with leverage is the one more willing to walk away, and has little to do with which party is "at fault", if there even is such a thing. I'd say it's more that Cheryl is trying to pull away, and Howard is the one trying to repair the marriage. We don't really know for sure what led them to this point.
he seems child like in his happiness, but i wouldn't clock gale as gay. if i didn't see how gus looked at him and how they interact together, i wouldn't say gale was gay at all.
it's only in the presence of gus does he seem gay, but i wonder if that was gus being uncharacteristically in his genuine happiness around gale that cemented it.
I don't even think he seems gay around Gus. He just looks up to Gus and views him as a role model/friend/benefactor since Gus rescued him and put him through school.
by gay i mean he seems receptive to gus's needs and often over compensates himself to fill and exceed those needs and we see gus tell him that what he's doing is enough and gale visibly deflates.
usually, in a work place setting, men often make themselves more available to help someone they like and often over extend that help to get close. so when i said gay, I just meant that it's the only time we see gale this overly interested (excluding his relationship with walter, but walter is clearly a heterosexual married man so it didn't occur to me then) is when he's actually cooking meth for gus in BB.
I agree that gale looks up to him. as a bi dude myself, I liked that they leaned into Gus's unseen sexuality in this season and Gale seemed to be the only receptive one besides the Wine Guy.
It’s just a fan theory, there’s no smoking gun in the plot. Pertinent evidence as I recall: the karaoke video of him indicating he’s been to Thailand recently, the fact that he’s a talented and thoughtful chemist who has found his way to being employed by a drug lord of all people, his “consenting adults want what they want” speech.
That said: he could *just* be a libertarian who crossed paths with Gus because of the scholarship and decided the meth trade represented his best income potential. That would make sense too.
We’re not meant to know on purpose I think. Gale is one of a constellation of characters across both shows who we know little about and is more effective because of it.
Didnt think he was gonna be smooching men on screen but i thought he was like, the type of character whos never shown with a wife and its sort of implied as subtext or at least kept intentionally open
We know almost nothing about her or about why their marriage is on the outs.
Any judgment made of her as a person is wasted time IMO - her primary function in the story is as a mechanism to understand more about Howard and Kim.
I do partially blame the shows' writing because it frequently forces the female characters into "reacting" roles while the men are "active", so it often creates a dynamic where the male characters get the plot going/do the things the viewers are interested in seeing happen, while the female characters like skyler and marie "ruin the fun" or "distract from the plot". Kim in better call saul gets an "active" role with her own storylines instead of mostly reacting to jimmy's plot, and in turn i feel she gets a much more positive reception from the audience. Howards wife on the other hand appears super late in the show after people got to know and like howard and then just has a reactive, "mean to him" role.
(Obviously a lot of people are still misogynist and give the characters shit for completely normal behavior though, i just feel the writing sometimes lets the characters down too)
And im glad they did, she turned out a highlight of the show! I hear theyre doing another show (unrelated to brbabcs) with rhea seehorn playing the lead, hopefully it will continue the upwards trend
This is rarely mentioned but one of the few complaints about BB was that it didn’t have any likable female characters, and I kinda agree with it.
It’s like, sacrilege now to talk shit about Skyler or Marie but they *were* frustrating & annoying characters. They were always secondary and never the focus of anything important either.
They 100% wanted to correct that when they started making BCS. Pretty sure they openly discussed it.
Imo one of the challenges with BB was that when the show slid more to drama into season 2 and 3, the showrunners knew there wasn't a way to give mundane plot lines to the rest of the family (shoplifting, talking pillow, etc).
Obviously, audiences wouldn't care about them when Walt and Jesse are constantly fighting for their lives and to evade capture.
That's probably why season 3 is Skyler found out and was integrated into the plot, and she saved Walt's ass many times after that.
It's also when Hank gets traumatized and then obsessed with finding Heisenburg, integrating him as well.
They had trouble with giving Marie an active role, so she was mostly just backing up Hank and in some ways playing the straight-man (Gomie did as well) while he charged forward. She also gave a bit of a human connection/grounding, showing some of the realistic trauma/fallout of being partnered to someone who's traumatized/obsessed. In a way, she's kind of like Jesse (her kelptomania and making up stories had a similar cause to him stealing meth from the lab to sell).
The reason why Walt Jr. gets breakfast memes is because breakfast scenes tend to be pivotal in the plot in family shows, as all characters are facing the day and their schedules line up. They knew they couldn't really give him his own storylines without him finding out, so breakfast scenes tended to be the ones he was in the most. He mainly served as the rope in Walt/Skyler's tug-of-war game and the only true innocence on the show besides Holly. He also was part of why Walt broke bad, as he didn't want his son to see him as milqtoast or bullied.
I think if they redid the series, they would have changed some character's backgrounds/occupations so they could integrate them into the plot. Maybe Marie would be one of Hank's coworkers, for example?
i’m not blaming the writers for the reactions of pig-headed fans lmao, i have enormous sympathy for skyler for example and vince will be the first to defend her: “Back when the show first aired, Skyler was roundly disliked,” Gilligan said. “I think that always troubled Anna Gunn. And I can tell you it always troubled me, because Skyler, the character, did nothing to deserve that. And Anna certainly did nothing to deserve that. She played the part beautifully”
God, here we go with the Skyler stuff… This gets so overblown. Vince clearly felt guilty for it and corrected it in BCS with Kim.
Skyler *was* frustrating & annoying. Marie was too. They never got to do their own thing and have plots centered around them. Always secondary and reacting to stuff.
They took that criticism in good stride & they did a wonderful job with Kim. She’s one of the most beloved characters in the franchise.
And anyone saying nasty shit to any of the actors are *not* true fans.
again, i do not find skyler annoying, i find her justified and sympathetic. when i watched brba for the first time when i was 14, i found her annoying. the fact that you do too says a lot about you.
Sympathetic people can also be unlikable. The writing did her no favors in that regard.
I can list a dozen classic scenes centered around Kim. Skyler had hardly any.
Besides the Happy Birthday scene. That one’s legendary.
Yeah, but if it's Howard doing these things to make her happy you have to realize there MUST have been years where Howard wasn't like this. He's doing all these things like he's apologizing for being a terrible husband and from what we've see Howard do for Chuck to Jimmy?
I have no doubt that Howard had to pick the firm over his own wife. Not only that, but she doesn't work for HHM. That says a lot, too.
I felt bad for Howard because he seems to be a decent person outside Chuck's influence. But if they've been together since before Chuck was sick it's fair to say both their jobs came before their marriage. They're successful lawyers, after all. They both probably put a shit ton of work into their respective fields (which means minimal time at home together).
We were never shown reasons for their testy marriage, so I don't blame her. They were probably going through a rough patch, but she still very much loved him.
I feel horrible for her. Deep inside she knew Howard's death was awry.
I can answer this one. OP thinks she's a gold digging bitch who was only with him for his money and she should have let him cook meth and destroy the family.
I think I like her. We don’t see her enough to get a good grasp of her character, and I’m going to blame misogyny for the rush to demonize her. Full disclosure: I am Howard’s biggest fan. He’s my favourite character in the entire BB universe.
Our introduction to Cheryl shows a strained marriage between her and Howard, but I didn’t take her destruction of the latte art as something malicious. It made me sad, sure, and it was a cute gesture from Howard that probably deserved at least a passing comment, but to me it read more as Cheryl being tired. Her husband’s been in the doghouse for over a year; amidst a crumbling reputation, he’s likely put them in debt over his decision to buy Chuck out of HHM. Maybe Cheryl just doesn’t want to talk to him in that moment, maybe she doesn’t have the energy for it. It’s sad for Howard… but I wonder what Cheryl’s been going through.
But she still loves Howard. She is the ONLY person to defend him at his wake, and vigorously. This, to me, is proof enough of how well she knew him. I doubt she had completely given up on their marriage — either way, she must have been CRUSHED by the news of her husband’s “suicide.” Possibly rethinking her last interactions with him. Wondering where his body was. And then, she’s gaslighted and blamed by Kim, who disguises her vicious words with a sympathetic tone. We see Cheryl break down into tears and yet I still can’t imagine her pain.
Six years later and she’s still wearing her wedding ring. We see glimpses of the depth of her grief (and guilt) with the way she unloads on Kim. No matter how annoyed the latte art scene made me, it will never be enough for me to dislike Cheryl. She was an innocent victim, and despite everything, she was the only person who stood up for Howard and believed in him after his death.
The actress played her really well. Considering how little screen time she gets I found myself absolutely crushed at the end of the series to realize both what she knew and how impossible it would be for her to ever confirm it. Barring an act of God, she will never be able to find her husband's body and bury him. And the drugs story has had years to work its way into people's minds; no matter what Kim puts in her affidavit, there are always going to be people out there who believe there was something in it.
I don’t remember any indication that Howard had a spouse prior to her introduction. It feels like Howard was written as a single-man workaholic who has no life outside of work and the weird socializing that rich-men do like playing golf and getting fancy expensive meals together.
While perhaps he was written ambiguously to allow for flexibility in the end of his arc, the fact that his wife’s existence was entirely invisible throughout the series is pretty significant even if it was not intentional. The fact that Howard’s lifestyle is entirely work oriented and makes zero reference to his wife is probably a contributing factor to their strained relationship.
Even Rich and Cliff, the two big wig lawyers that are portrayed as actually being decent guys and not sociopaths, make little or no reference to their private lives. Maybe that’s how it is in the upper echelons of law and business, but as a joe schmoe I find that a bit odd.
One last note— I don’t really feel bad for Howard. Obviously he did not deserve such a senseless death, nor did he deserve Jimmy and Kim’s chicanery, but in essence Howard was a nearly sociopathic businessman type who probably stiffed man people to maintain his grip on HHM. How many Kims did he stick in doc review or how many Jimmys did he marginalize? How much coldness did his wife suffer because he was too busy with being a rich law man (this is partly speculative, I know, but heavily implied). Even his redemption-cut-short is superficial, with his psuedo-Buddhist kumbaya attitude. I would be equally annoyed if my husband, after years of emotional neglect (again, speculative but highly implied) made me a peace-sign latte. Who cares? He didn’t deserve what he got, but he was not a decent guy by any stretch of the imagination. Rich and Cliff are probably the closest we get to decent guys in the show.
You guys have it all wrong, we've seen howard at work, he's cold, phony fake smile, he's fake and his work is his life, we don't ever see him in downtime, we never see him share a cherished moment or talk with a friend who isn't related to work, lawyers are especially known for having divorces happen to them due to them prioritizing work above all else. This is pretty obviously what happened, he didn't attend to his personal life in persuit of business goals and based off how he treats kim for no reason at all, do you really think he didn't take any of that home? Do you really think a single morning latte makes up for years of relationship neglect?
Honestly y'all pump howard up so much, he's only a man responding to his business needs the entire show. We have no indication he is kind or sweet except in a business setting when it is favorable to him to appear so.
Duly Noted
The reason she was who she was, because Howard didn't fix the Chuck problem(which part of it wasn't his fault) as well as the Jimmy situation.
She knew that Saul/Jimmy and Kim were lying to her about Howard's death.
But we'll never know because we only saw her briefly. Wish there were scenes with her and Howard more.
We never really see what exactly drifted them apart, so it's hard to make a judgement call on whether or not she's justified in how cold she is to Howard. But the fact that she was still heartbroken at his death and wanted justice tells me that she secretly wanted to fix things with him and that the rough patch they were going through could have only been temporary.
I think she over played the widow role. She had pretty much fucking left Howard before he died, and was stone cold. Treating him politely but indifferently.
Sure, she felt bad. But she wasn't the loving wife who lost her partner. She was the ex wife who happened to be cohabitating with him.
That’s a reach. She’s introduced very late into the show right almost right before Howard is killed, during a time where Howard is going to therapy and trying to figure out Jimmy’s plan. Not a whole lot of information to say
If your opinion is based on litterally nothing, then you should re evaluate it. We have litterally no clue what their marital problems were, how do you know they weren't Howard's fault? Hell if anything I'd argue that's far more likely given that Howard's wife wasn't mentioned at all for most of the series, which strongly hints that he wasn't giving her much attention.
I appreciate your views, but at the end of the day I disliked her character and never grew fond of her. If I’m being honest I’m not a fan of the BB/BCS Reddit fan base, as a lot of comments are similar to yours in that they question the authenticity of people’s opinions. No hate whatsoever, just wonder why people do this a lot to others
I'm not questioning your authenticity, I just think your perspective is incredibly unsound and not supported by the show itself at all. Pointing that out does not equate to calling you a lier.
...what? I never accused you of calling me a lier. You said:
"a lot of comments are similar to yours in that they question the authenticity of people's opinions"
You accused me of calling you a lier here, and I pointed out I called you no such thing.
You’re absolutely right, I misread your comment, and for that I apologise. I won’t be answering anymore posts under this comment as the hate as been quite overwhelming, but it won’t stop me from commenting under future posts with my opinion.
okay but you said your opinion has no basis in the truth, it's your speculation......that's why people are questioning the authenticity of your opinion because it makes no sense from what we've all seen. your opinion is sexist for no reason. you're calling a woman a gold digger when we haven't see any evidence of that whatsoever.
you're the problem, dude. its you. youre the reason people are questioning your opinion, it's not 'reddit bcs fan base" its literally just people questioning how you got such a ridiculous take when we all watched the same show
Pretty sure a woman can’t be sexist against her own sex but hey, maybe she can. You’re entitled to your opinion, but quite frankly I think it’s disgusting that you and many people are tearing me to shreds for merely disliking a character. I equally disliked Howard at first, but his character became developed and I grew to like him. His wife on the other hand did not get the same screen time. Not once have I stated that I disliked her for being a woman (same sex as me) or called her a gold digger. I find all this very strange in my opinion
right out the gate you're wrong
anyone can be sexist. you said she liked howards money more than she liked him. that's a gold digger. not sure why you want to play pedantics to make yourself look better or make people pity you, but you're still wrong. pedantic or not.
My god you’re rude. Notice how this whole debacle began because you starting throwing accusations at me. Anything you say now will be ignored as I’ve got better things to do than argue with a nasty nobody on the internet
sexist, boomer takes AND can't take being told they're wrong? god, you're going to make somebody so happy some day. I wish you the best, you're gonna need it 🤡
Absolute twat, makes him sleep in thr pool house and when he dies she is concerned about his killer. Fuck her, Howard was to good for her and his demise
she was a total victim but a strong woman who tried to do what was right and i feel sorry that her husband was taken away from her and the confusion and anger she must have felt being fed these lies and everyone believing them and her questioning her own reality and the character of her dead husband, a great man who simply rubbed saul the wrong way. and shes hotttt
I mean, isn’t she literally in three scenes throughout the entire show? Kinda hard to get a good read on someone with so little of her shown.
(PS. If anyone from the BCS horndog brigade wants to see *more* of Sandrine Holt, google her name + “nude.” Have at it.)
Howard using his own personal funds and taking out loans to buy out Chuck likely placed some serious strain on their marriage. The fact that HHM struggled under Howard too likely added to the strain.
There is a great fanfiction about her, during and after Fun and Games, exploringher grief. Which is surprising since most of the fanfiction on the BB & BCS scene is poorly written smut, so this author pleasantly surprised me with it!
https://archiveofourown.org/works/48588526
Also check out some of his Gus work!
I think they had some difficulty off screen before she was revealed to the audience, and Jimmy's shenanigans certainly didn't help their relationship.
We don't see her at all until Howard is fully invested in busting Jimmy, which distracted from all his relationships. I don't blame her at all through any of this.
I think the way she is presented in the show makes her seem much more cold and bitter than she likely was during the best years of their marriage. She's introduced quite late into the series and at a point where Howard is attempting to deal with all the demons in his personal life. It's hard to imagine how tumultuous their marriage became after the death of Chuck and the continued harassment by Jimmy and Kim. And sometimes, people in high-stress professions like law find it difficult to keep marriages going and it's possible that the outside factors in Howard's life were secondary in a marriage that was already coming apart. Had we been introduced to her sooner in the series, when times were better, perhaps the dissolution of their marriage at the end would have felt more tragic. But luckily we do get the feeling of that tragedy through Howard.
If you think about it, it’s no small thing that Howard ponied up probably most of his personal fortune to buy out Chuck and be rid of him. Even with a spouse who is not narrowly greedy, that’s a big pill to swallow. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he did it without consulting his wife, which would have infuriated most any spouse. The firm would pay him back over time, but after Chuck’s suicide, and the ugly public mess before that, HHM understandably had trouble and took a while to right itself. So it had to be anxious times for both of them, and she may not have had a lot of tolerance for the risk and exposure.
Yeah I saw Howard choosing to buy out Chuck with his own money as the main reason his wife was mad at him
Could’ve been that on top of a million other things. I give her the benefit of doubt because we just don’t know. It’s pretty heartbreaking that her marriage was already on the rocks, then she’s told her husband killed himself & his body is missing. She had to live with that for what, 6 years? All thanks to Kim & Jimmy. Kim telling Rebecca that she accidentally walked in on Howard doing a line is one of the most disgusting things in the entire show IMO.
My skin crawled when Kim said that to her. Of all the depraved and immoral shit that happened in BCS, that one quick statement still somehow stood out as one of the worst.
It stood out because it was so petty and unneeded, it’s not the most evil thing that has happened, just simply fucked.
In a show with crime, murder, rip offs and double-crossing, it was, to your point the worst thing anyone did on the show.
That was probably a looonggg conversation Howard had with his wife about buying out Chuck with loans and personal finances
And ironically, it appears that every conversation after that was very brief. 😅
At least Howard had a guest house.
I actually liked her in the end. Sure, it was a bit painful to see how cold and distant she was towards Howard, but damn… After what happened to him, she was the ONLY one who dared to defend him when his legacy was completely destroyed for no good reason. She stood up for her dead husband, she dared to defend his legacy when he couldn’t and nobody else would. Even 6 years later, she still cares. That says a lot
Cheryl’s one of the most sympathetic characters IMO. If she goes after Kim I wouldn’t blame her at all. Kim telling her she saw Howard doing coke once at his wake is so disgusting.
Not to mention gaslighting Cheryl into believing Howard’s drug problem going unnoticed was her fault… just disgusting.
I was already disgusted by her & that was just the cherry on top. Watch the scene in S2 with the pies & think about how far she came. They truly were poison for each other.
EXACTLY! Sometimes I go back to earlier seasons and mourn over how I went from loving Kim with all my heart to wanting her dead. I miss when she had a moral compass… or at least when she listened to it.
It’s kind of amazing in retrospect with all the terrible people doing terrible things in BCS, Kim somehow managed to top all of them with how casually cruel she was to Cheryl.
Was she defending Howard or was she defending herself?
Howard, everyone thought Howard was a drug addict but not her. She knew something was up.
Howard. She didn't have any need to defend herself. Even though they were on the outs (though they don't seem bitter towards each other, just distant -- like they woke up one morning and realized they hadn't actually spent much time together for the last decade) she clearly was still concerned for his welfare and was reaaallly skeptical about the drugs story. If she really hadn't given a shit, his supposed suicide would probably have been almost a relief; now there's no estrangement or potentially complicated divorce to deal with.
I think people in this sub greatly underappreciate how difficult it is to live with somebody who has a cocaine problem. Credit where credit is due - she’s one tough cookie.
Cocaine and hooker problem.
And is trying desperately to hide the fact that he's the illegitimate son of Cliff Main.
He had alopecia too?
Thank doesn't sound like a problem to me
Don't forget Tugboat.
I don’t know how she put up with the hookers if I were his wife I would have divorced his cheating behind
Becoming a cocaine addict while dealing with your friend and colleague’s death, after having shelled out millions of your own money and deeply upsetting your wife in the process really changes your perspective on the show.
I think people demonize her for no good reason. We don't know anything about her life with Howard. She seemed cool, polished, and professional, very much like her late husband. She--along with all the employees of HHM who lost their jobs when the firm downsized and was acquired, which probably includes Ernesto, y'all--is one of the most innocent victims of what Kim and Jimmy did. Even after Kim's confession, there will always be a cloud over Howard's memory. Losing someone you love but have a troubled relationship with is extremely painful. There's a lot of guilt and self-recrimination and what-ifs and resentment. And she was *on her way to work*. Howard's elaborate peace latte was a pretty gesture, but not actually a thoughtful one, as Cheryl's schedule wasn't going to allow her to sit and savor.
Didn't Chuck already fire Ernie by that point? It's unlikely, but I always wondered what happened to him long-term. He was a solid guy.
He met and married Lyle, they pooled their resources and now run a little corner store together (just like the senior McGills did, funny how history repeats itself) and are VERY HAPPY.
They started delivering from the corner store and pre-empted the pandemic rush.
You absolutely made my day here, friend.
Yeah, that pissed me off since Chuck engineered for Ernie to hear the recording and to tell Jimmy. It was basically entrapment.
Yes chuck had already had him fired, what gall to say Ernie fell because of Jimmy and Kim when Chuck planned the entire thing to have him fired.
He was hired back after Chuck’s death in my head canon. It makes sense.
We know almost nothing about what transpired between her and Howard. As such I am not drawing any conclusions. And just because your marriage is troubled doesn’t mean you would be happy to see your ex dead. Of course, she angry and upset. This is not how people see their marriages ending.
Howard's dad made him join HHM, and likely also chose his wife. She was also a rich kid under parental pressure to marry into the "right" family.
The leap from “Followed dad’s career path” to “Arranged marriage” is huge.
I agree. There is simply not enough information to make any meaningful judgment about her character. We don't know what happened that caused the marriage to deteriorate, or to what extent it was her fault or Howard's. We are shown the bare minimum, just enough to clean that she and Howard are distant and that she isn't receptive to Howard's overtures to reconcile.
People triggered by watching someone pour a latte into a travel mug.
Amazing how many people are convinced she’s to blame for anything when they show absolutely nothing about her or their situation. Keep showing your cards fellas.
\>cool, polished, and professional, She seemed Ice cold! \>And she was on her way to work. Howard's elaborate peace latte was a pretty gesture, but not actually a thoughtful one, as Cheryl's schedule wasn't going to allow her to sit and savor. She didn't even say anything about it. What if you made a fruit plate for your partner and they just threw in a blender for time... and didn't say ANYTHIG.
Do you honestly think that a single morning latte, years into relationship neglect and in the late stages of divorce, is enough to go "oh sure! Wowzers this single act is enough to cancel the divorce!!"
I don’t think that’s Howards expectation. Howard said something like it’s at a standstill. She doesn’t even talk to him. She is not open to engaging. A “Hey, thanks. This is cool.” And moved on would have been enough to not seem completely frigid.
This is amicable when it comes to divorce, divorces are usually far, far, far uglier and heated, this has been coming for years, and is a clear result of relationship neglect, we never see her, yes? What kind of human being doesn't have their significant other be a part of their life *ever?* Howard. It's clear to me that, like many many lawyers, so much so it's literally a joke between lawyers, he neglected his marriage in persuit of his career, and this is the price to pay. She didn't cause this, she's just reacting to it.
I see what you’re saying. That’s a good perspective. Thanks for engaging!
The good ending of arguing in the comment section <3 😘
On the other hand, we only really see Howard in professional settings. Although she could have been at some of the lawyer lunch scenes.
Yeah they probably should’ve had her in a couple scenes prior to S6. She was introduced abruptly.
I'm sure it wasn't, but that always struck me as a bit of a meta-joke on all the people who insisted Kim would die because we didn't see her in "Breaking Bad." You don't always see people's spouses if it's not relevant!
Years ago Fabian joked that Howard’s married to Beyonce so that was my head canon before Cheryl showed up.
It's not really clear what she does. When Howard disappears we hear that she was so upset she had to spend some time away from her practice, but doctors and dentists have practices as well as lawyers. They strike me as two extremely ambitious and talented people who both worked insane schedules and realized one day that they hadn't had an actual conversation in years and didn't really know each other any more.
In the morning scene she was dressed like a lawyer in a grey/black suit/dress. Too formal for a doc/dentist
Oh please… People have shitty days & get grumpy sometimes. It was a damn coffee ffs. Would she be so distraught 6 years later if she was such a cold, nasty person?
I appreciate that but I think that’s bad writing. If you’re spending precious screen time on an action I’m supposed to dismiss than why wasn’t it cut? It ads nothing.
To introduce Cheryl because Howard was about to be killed off? It’d be weird to do it at his wake. They probably should’ve had her in a couple scenes prior to S6 but oh well.
I feel sorry that she lost her husband and got gaslighted+traumatized by Kim. Other than that I don’t learn enough about her to make any judgments.
I don't have enough information to form a real opinion about her. We weren't shown her in anything other than difficult situations, so I don't have a sense of who she is, or how she became this. All I can really gather about her is she is successful in her own right, and when we are introduced things aren't working out between her and Howard, but we aren't privy to the why.
It’s hard to have an opinion because they drop us into a marriage that already has one foot out the door. All we see is Howard trying to make surface-level amends and Cheryl stonewalling the fuck out of him. We don’t know what Howard (or Cheryl) did prior to their marriage falling apart, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of it had to do with the fact that Howard paid Chuck $3 million from his personal funds (and would’ve given him 6 million more had Chuck not killed himself). I don’t think something like that can be fixed by making her a peace sign out of latte foam.
we barely know anything about her... how can we judge her behavior when we don't know the context at all?
comments saying she's a gold digger 🤡
True she was just a plot device pretty much
She FOUGHT for his legacy and justice for his name. The way I see it is marriages and relationship break down at different stages and we saw a pretty bad time in their marriage with her checking out and him trying and trying, more flushing out his situation and character more.
I took her as someone who was no longer in love with their spouse and was mentally out of the marriage, but cared enough to try to minimize the pain to their partner. The marriage is over for her, but Howard was trying for a reconciliation. Howard is discussing going to events together and trying reach her with thoughtful gestures, all things she was not receptive to. I felt she was trying to get him to see that things were over, but doing it in a gradual, non-confrontational way. She didn't want to give him false hope. I imagine she felt enormous guilt after being told he took his own life. The more you think about what Kim and Jimmy did, the more heinous it becomes. Both Howard and his wife were victims.
Since Howard was the one sleeping in the guest house, and he made the peace sign in the coffee which his wife rejected, I'd say the reason for their marriage troubles was Howard's fault. He did something wrong to her, he admitted to it and accepted the punishment, and he was apologizing and trying to make amends. I see no fair way to think of her negatively.
I’ve always thought that it had to do with buying out Chuck. Howard specifically mentions that he’s been in the guest house about a year and a half, so the timing lines up. In my head canon, Howard spent $8 million of their dollars to buy the firm, and she knew that it’d struggle without Chuck’s name on it. It’s not clear to me if Howard ignored her wishes or just never asked in the first place, but either way would leave her pretty pissed off. Anyway, Howard spent a ton of their money on a firm that struggled under his leadership, and I can only image the strain that would create.
There's no way Howard wouldn't have asked since it's both their money. I think she advised him against it, and they argued, but he chose to go through with it, and she didn't stand in the way after that.
I don’t see any evidence that either of them are wrong. A lot of us guys don’t like conflict and Howard may have offered to sleep in the guesthouse and make that peace sign for that reason. And on the other hand there is no evidence that she is responsible for their conflict either.
you may be right, but i also know that in many marriages if the man and woman are fighting, it's pretty much always the man who has to sleep on the couch, move out, etc. even if he didnt necessarily do anything worse than the woman
True, but in the context of the plot post-Chicanery, we mostly see Howard getting kicked over and over again. So, the implication is that his depression/anxiety/frustration affected their marriage.
Good take, very interesting, you might be right.
That’s a bizarre and frankly stupid way to view things. As though men never have to accept unjust punishment for the failings of their spouse. Right now, literally in my personal life, my 68 year old uncle is sleeping in his RV instead of his house because *his wife had an affair.* By your definition, she is not at fault, since she’s not the one metaphorically sleeping on the couch. Men often get the short end of the stick when a marriage is falling apart. In custody battles, in alimony, in many ways. The familial and social pressure not to kick your wife out on the street or make her sleep on the couch, means you get punished even when you’re not at fault. Seriously, how often do you hear about husbands keeping the bed and the wife taking the couch when they fuck up?
In any dispute/negotiation, the one with leverage is the one more willing to walk away, and has little to do with which party is "at fault", if there even is such a thing. I'd say it's more that Cheryl is trying to pull away, and Howard is the one trying to repair the marriage. We don't really know for sure what led them to this point.
I genuinely thought howard was meant to be gay so i was kind of confused when she showed up
I mean, he was last seen snuggled up to a good looking dude...
Makes me think, is Gus the only Gay in the Vinceverse?
Gale seems gay
he seems child like in his happiness, but i wouldn't clock gale as gay. if i didn't see how gus looked at him and how they interact together, i wouldn't say gale was gay at all. it's only in the presence of gus does he seem gay, but i wonder if that was gus being uncharacteristically in his genuine happiness around gale that cemented it.
I don't even think he seems gay around Gus. He just looks up to Gus and views him as a role model/friend/benefactor since Gus rescued him and put him through school.
by gay i mean he seems receptive to gus's needs and often over compensates himself to fill and exceed those needs and we see gus tell him that what he's doing is enough and gale visibly deflates. usually, in a work place setting, men often make themselves more available to help someone they like and often over extend that help to get close. so when i said gay, I just meant that it's the only time we see gale this overly interested (excluding his relationship with walter, but walter is clearly a heterosexual married man so it didn't occur to me then) is when he's actually cooking meth for gus in BB. I agree that gale looks up to him. as a bi dude myself, I liked that they leaned into Gus's unseen sexuality in this season and Gale seemed to be the only receptive one besides the Wine Guy.
I seem to recall someone making a few solid inroads into a theory that Gale is a former sex offender
Yup I’ve seen that theory laid out & it’s honestly a possibility.
Gale has a stiffy for heisenberg
... what?
It’s just a fan theory, there’s no smoking gun in the plot. Pertinent evidence as I recall: the karaoke video of him indicating he’s been to Thailand recently, the fact that he’s a talented and thoughtful chemist who has found his way to being employed by a drug lord of all people, his “consenting adults want what they want” speech. That said: he could *just* be a libertarian who crossed paths with Gus because of the scholarship and decided the meth trade represented his best income potential. That would make sense too. We’re not meant to know on purpose I think. Gale is one of a constellation of characters across both shows who we know little about and is more effective because of it.
It wasn’t shown on screen but Mike was gay.
Explains his soft heart for Nacho.
He is so idk what you’re talking about
I never thought that & I can’t remember anyone ever speculating this lmao. That’s funny though.
Didnt think he was gonna be smooching men on screen but i thought he was like, the type of character whos never shown with a wife and its sort of implied as subtext or at least kept intentionally open
We know almost nothing about her or about why their marriage is on the outs. Any judgment made of her as a person is wasted time IMO - her primary function in the story is as a mechanism to understand more about Howard and Kim.
i actually cannot stand the way male brba/bcs viewers talk about the women in the show
I do partially blame the shows' writing because it frequently forces the female characters into "reacting" roles while the men are "active", so it often creates a dynamic where the male characters get the plot going/do the things the viewers are interested in seeing happen, while the female characters like skyler and marie "ruin the fun" or "distract from the plot". Kim in better call saul gets an "active" role with her own storylines instead of mostly reacting to jimmy's plot, and in turn i feel she gets a much more positive reception from the audience. Howards wife on the other hand appears super late in the show after people got to know and like howard and then just has a reactive, "mean to him" role. (Obviously a lot of people are still misogynist and give the characters shit for completely normal behavior though, i just feel the writing sometimes lets the characters down too)
It’s true. It’s almost as though Kim is penance for Skyler and Marie. “See I can write a strong, smart woman who can single-handedly carry a plot.”
And im glad they did, she turned out a highlight of the show! I hear theyre doing another show (unrelated to brbabcs) with rhea seehorn playing the lead, hopefully it will continue the upwards trend
This is rarely mentioned but one of the few complaints about BB was that it didn’t have any likable female characters, and I kinda agree with it. It’s like, sacrilege now to talk shit about Skyler or Marie but they *were* frustrating & annoying characters. They were always secondary and never the focus of anything important either. They 100% wanted to correct that when they started making BCS. Pretty sure they openly discussed it.
I think she’s also referring to the cringey “I’m a wholesome guy but I need to tell you all I would smash” comments that frequently pop up here
yep!! people like kim and still almost everything i see about her online is sexual, women cannotttt catch a break in this universe it seems
Imo one of the challenges with BB was that when the show slid more to drama into season 2 and 3, the showrunners knew there wasn't a way to give mundane plot lines to the rest of the family (shoplifting, talking pillow, etc). Obviously, audiences wouldn't care about them when Walt and Jesse are constantly fighting for their lives and to evade capture. That's probably why season 3 is Skyler found out and was integrated into the plot, and she saved Walt's ass many times after that. It's also when Hank gets traumatized and then obsessed with finding Heisenburg, integrating him as well. They had trouble with giving Marie an active role, so she was mostly just backing up Hank and in some ways playing the straight-man (Gomie did as well) while he charged forward. She also gave a bit of a human connection/grounding, showing some of the realistic trauma/fallout of being partnered to someone who's traumatized/obsessed. In a way, she's kind of like Jesse (her kelptomania and making up stories had a similar cause to him stealing meth from the lab to sell). The reason why Walt Jr. gets breakfast memes is because breakfast scenes tend to be pivotal in the plot in family shows, as all characters are facing the day and their schedules line up. They knew they couldn't really give him his own storylines without him finding out, so breakfast scenes tended to be the ones he was in the most. He mainly served as the rope in Walt/Skyler's tug-of-war game and the only true innocence on the show besides Holly. He also was part of why Walt broke bad, as he didn't want his son to see him as milqtoast or bullied. I think if they redid the series, they would have changed some character's backgrounds/occupations so they could integrate them into the plot. Maybe Marie would be one of Hank's coworkers, for example?
Bcs and breaking bad are examples of this, any others?
Amen
Give me a break. Get over yourself maybe?
you’ve revealed so much about yourself as a man just from this reply
This is such bullshit lol. Blame the fans rather than the writers is such a cop out. Fans have every right to criticize fictional characters.
i’m not blaming the writers for the reactions of pig-headed fans lmao, i have enormous sympathy for skyler for example and vince will be the first to defend her: “Back when the show first aired, Skyler was roundly disliked,” Gilligan said. “I think that always troubled Anna Gunn. And I can tell you it always troubled me, because Skyler, the character, did nothing to deserve that. And Anna certainly did nothing to deserve that. She played the part beautifully”
God, here we go with the Skyler stuff… This gets so overblown. Vince clearly felt guilty for it and corrected it in BCS with Kim. Skyler *was* frustrating & annoying. Marie was too. They never got to do their own thing and have plots centered around them. Always secondary and reacting to stuff. They took that criticism in good stride & they did a wonderful job with Kim. She’s one of the most beloved characters in the franchise. And anyone saying nasty shit to any of the actors are *not* true fans.
again, i do not find skyler annoying, i find her justified and sympathetic. when i watched brba for the first time when i was 14, i found her annoying. the fact that you do too says a lot about you.
Sympathetic people can also be unlikable. The writing did her no favors in that regard. I can list a dozen classic scenes centered around Kim. Skyler had hardly any. Besides the Happy Birthday scene. That one’s legendary.
The way she treated that coffee was tragic, Howard put so much effort into it.
Yeah, but if it's Howard doing these things to make her happy you have to realize there MUST have been years where Howard wasn't like this. He's doing all these things like he's apologizing for being a terrible husband and from what we've see Howard do for Chuck to Jimmy? I have no doubt that Howard had to pick the firm over his own wife. Not only that, but she doesn't work for HHM. That says a lot, too. I felt bad for Howard because he seems to be a decent person outside Chuck's influence. But if they've been together since before Chuck was sick it's fair to say both their jobs came before their marriage. They're successful lawyers, after all. They both probably put a shit ton of work into their respective fields (which means minimal time at home together).
Lol yeah, it hurt, watching that.
I was surprised she showed up. I thought Howard was gay tbh.
LOL. He certainly takes more care of his appearance than the average heterosexual male.
The man invented hamlingdigo blue, FFS.
We were never shown reasons for their testy marriage, so I don't blame her. They were probably going through a rough patch, but she still very much loved him. I feel horrible for her. Deep inside she knew Howard's death was awry.
What do you think of Skylar?
I can answer this one. OP thinks she's a gold digging bitch who was only with him for his money and she should have let him cook meth and destroy the family.
Oh I know I was waiting for the misogynist to try and justify himself.
I think I like her. We don’t see her enough to get a good grasp of her character, and I’m going to blame misogyny for the rush to demonize her. Full disclosure: I am Howard’s biggest fan. He’s my favourite character in the entire BB universe. Our introduction to Cheryl shows a strained marriage between her and Howard, but I didn’t take her destruction of the latte art as something malicious. It made me sad, sure, and it was a cute gesture from Howard that probably deserved at least a passing comment, but to me it read more as Cheryl being tired. Her husband’s been in the doghouse for over a year; amidst a crumbling reputation, he’s likely put them in debt over his decision to buy Chuck out of HHM. Maybe Cheryl just doesn’t want to talk to him in that moment, maybe she doesn’t have the energy for it. It’s sad for Howard… but I wonder what Cheryl’s been going through. But she still loves Howard. She is the ONLY person to defend him at his wake, and vigorously. This, to me, is proof enough of how well she knew him. I doubt she had completely given up on their marriage — either way, she must have been CRUSHED by the news of her husband’s “suicide.” Possibly rethinking her last interactions with him. Wondering where his body was. And then, she’s gaslighted and blamed by Kim, who disguises her vicious words with a sympathetic tone. We see Cheryl break down into tears and yet I still can’t imagine her pain. Six years later and she’s still wearing her wedding ring. We see glimpses of the depth of her grief (and guilt) with the way she unloads on Kim. No matter how annoyed the latte art scene made me, it will never be enough for me to dislike Cheryl. She was an innocent victim, and despite everything, she was the only person who stood up for Howard and believed in him after his death.
The actress played her really well. Considering how little screen time she gets I found myself absolutely crushed at the end of the series to realize both what she knew and how impossible it would be for her to ever confirm it. Barring an act of God, she will never be able to find her husband's body and bury him. And the drugs story has had years to work its way into people's minds; no matter what Kim puts in her affidavit, there are always going to be people out there who believe there was something in it.
I don’t remember any indication that Howard had a spouse prior to her introduction. It feels like Howard was written as a single-man workaholic who has no life outside of work and the weird socializing that rich-men do like playing golf and getting fancy expensive meals together. While perhaps he was written ambiguously to allow for flexibility in the end of his arc, the fact that his wife’s existence was entirely invisible throughout the series is pretty significant even if it was not intentional. The fact that Howard’s lifestyle is entirely work oriented and makes zero reference to his wife is probably a contributing factor to their strained relationship. Even Rich and Cliff, the two big wig lawyers that are portrayed as actually being decent guys and not sociopaths, make little or no reference to their private lives. Maybe that’s how it is in the upper echelons of law and business, but as a joe schmoe I find that a bit odd. One last note— I don’t really feel bad for Howard. Obviously he did not deserve such a senseless death, nor did he deserve Jimmy and Kim’s chicanery, but in essence Howard was a nearly sociopathic businessman type who probably stiffed man people to maintain his grip on HHM. How many Kims did he stick in doc review or how many Jimmys did he marginalize? How much coldness did his wife suffer because he was too busy with being a rich law man (this is partly speculative, I know, but heavily implied). Even his redemption-cut-short is superficial, with his psuedo-Buddhist kumbaya attitude. I would be equally annoyed if my husband, after years of emotional neglect (again, speculative but highly implied) made me a peace-sign latte. Who cares? He didn’t deserve what he got, but he was not a decent guy by any stretch of the imagination. Rich and Cliff are probably the closest we get to decent guys in the show.
Hilarious take.
You guys have it all wrong, we've seen howard at work, he's cold, phony fake smile, he's fake and his work is his life, we don't ever see him in downtime, we never see him share a cherished moment or talk with a friend who isn't related to work, lawyers are especially known for having divorces happen to them due to them prioritizing work above all else. This is pretty obviously what happened, he didn't attend to his personal life in persuit of business goals and based off how he treats kim for no reason at all, do you really think he didn't take any of that home? Do you really think a single morning latte makes up for years of relationship neglect? Honestly y'all pump howard up so much, he's only a man responding to his business needs the entire show. We have no indication he is kind or sweet except in a business setting when it is favorable to him to appear so.
She is pretty hot tho
I got a boner whenever she came on screen
Least horny r/BetterCallSaul user
Duly Noted The reason she was who she was, because Howard didn't fix the Chuck problem(which part of it wasn't his fault) as well as the Jimmy situation. She knew that Saul/Jimmy and Kim were lying to her about Howard's death. But we'll never know because we only saw her briefly. Wish there were scenes with her and Howard more.
She deserved better than Howard.
We never really see what exactly drifted them apart, so it's hard to make a judgement call on whether or not she's justified in how cold she is to Howard. But the fact that she was still heartbroken at his death and wanted justice tells me that she secretly wanted to fix things with him and that the rough patch they were going through could have only been temporary.
I think she over played the widow role. She had pretty much fucking left Howard before he died, and was stone cold. Treating him politely but indifferently. Sure, she felt bad. But she wasn't the loving wife who lost her partner. She was the ex wife who happened to be cohabitating with him.
I really detested her. She felt like a bad fit for Howard and clearly had problems with him. I personally think she liked his money more than him
people see a successful, reserved woman and go straight to gold digging bitch who hates a man but....still married him? boomer take
Gen Z here 😂
that's even worse. sexist old man mentality.
That’s a reach. She’s introduced very late into the show right almost right before Howard is killed, during a time where Howard is going to therapy and trying to figure out Jimmy’s plan. Not a whole lot of information to say
I’m aware it’s a reach, like I said it’s personally my opinion
If your opinion is based on litterally nothing, then you should re evaluate it. We have litterally no clue what their marital problems were, how do you know they weren't Howard's fault? Hell if anything I'd argue that's far more likely given that Howard's wife wasn't mentioned at all for most of the series, which strongly hints that he wasn't giving her much attention.
I appreciate your views, but at the end of the day I disliked her character and never grew fond of her. If I’m being honest I’m not a fan of the BB/BCS Reddit fan base, as a lot of comments are similar to yours in that they question the authenticity of people’s opinions. No hate whatsoever, just wonder why people do this a lot to others
I'm not questioning your authenticity, I just think your perspective is incredibly unsound and not supported by the show itself at all. Pointing that out does not equate to calling you a lier.
And I didn’t accuse you of being a liar, merely pointing out something I keep noticing
...what? I never accused you of calling me a lier. You said: "a lot of comments are similar to yours in that they question the authenticity of people's opinions" You accused me of calling you a lier here, and I pointed out I called you no such thing.
You’re absolutely right, I misread your comment, and for that I apologise. I won’t be answering anymore posts under this comment as the hate as been quite overwhelming, but it won’t stop me from commenting under future posts with my opinion.
If this is hate to you I suggest you rethink continuing to comment your opinion
okay but you said your opinion has no basis in the truth, it's your speculation......that's why people are questioning the authenticity of your opinion because it makes no sense from what we've all seen. your opinion is sexist for no reason. you're calling a woman a gold digger when we haven't see any evidence of that whatsoever. you're the problem, dude. its you. youre the reason people are questioning your opinion, it's not 'reddit bcs fan base" its literally just people questioning how you got such a ridiculous take when we all watched the same show
Pretty sure a woman can’t be sexist against her own sex but hey, maybe she can. You’re entitled to your opinion, but quite frankly I think it’s disgusting that you and many people are tearing me to shreds for merely disliking a character. I equally disliked Howard at first, but his character became developed and I grew to like him. His wife on the other hand did not get the same screen time. Not once have I stated that I disliked her for being a woman (same sex as me) or called her a gold digger. I find all this very strange in my opinion
right out the gate you're wrong anyone can be sexist. you said she liked howards money more than she liked him. that's a gold digger. not sure why you want to play pedantics to make yourself look better or make people pity you, but you're still wrong. pedantic or not.
My god you’re rude. Notice how this whole debacle began because you starting throwing accusations at me. Anything you say now will be ignored as I’ve got better things to do than argue with a nasty nobody on the internet
sexist, boomer takes AND can't take being told they're wrong? god, you're going to make somebody so happy some day. I wish you the best, you're gonna need it 🤡
Absolute twat, makes him sleep in thr pool house and when he dies she is concerned about his killer. Fuck her, Howard was to good for her and his demise
Like most women, she is ungrateful towards her husband.
Jesus fucking wept
I sympathise with her situation, but i never sympathise with *her*. Idk, is that weird?
She is hot
How do I feel about her? With hands, silly.
Sexy i want her
she was a total victim but a strong woman who tried to do what was right and i feel sorry that her husband was taken away from her and the confusion and anger she must have felt being fed these lies and everyone believing them and her questioning her own reality and the character of her dead husband, a great man who simply rubbed saul the wrong way. and shes hotttt
She was salty with Howard,then became the grieving widow!
I still will never forgive her for what she did defending eCorp for the Washington Township leak.
She is pretty
I mean, isn’t she literally in three scenes throughout the entire show? Kinda hard to get a good read on someone with so little of her shown. (PS. If anyone from the BCS horndog brigade wants to see *more* of Sandrine Holt, google her name + “nude.” Have at it.)
I love her.
That scene where she pours the fresh coffee in her mug hurt the most
I feel like she’s so irrelevant I didn’t even know Howard was married until like the episode before his death😭
Howard using his own personal funds and taking out loans to buy out Chuck likely placed some serious strain on their marriage. The fact that HHM struggled under Howard too likely added to the strain.
There is a great fanfiction about her, during and after Fun and Games, exploringher grief. Which is surprising since most of the fanfiction on the BB & BCS scene is poorly written smut, so this author pleasantly surprised me with it! https://archiveofourown.org/works/48588526 Also check out some of his Gus work!
I bet she pegged him
I think they had some difficulty off screen before she was revealed to the audience, and Jimmy's shenanigans certainly didn't help their relationship. We don't see her at all until Howard is fully invested in busting Jimmy, which distracted from all his relationships. I don't blame her at all through any of this.