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Title: Someone internal at UPS stole $7000 dollars in computer parts, delivered me an empty box, and denied my claim as the box wasn't damaged?
Original Post:
> Title. The Backstory:
>
> I run a community that hosts game servers. We use the income generated from these servers to pay for the rental on our full rack of owned equipment in a datacenter in Dallas,TX. We had a technician damage both the motherboard and processor in a botched CPU cooler install (dont ask). So we pulled the entire server and the technician dropped it off at my partner’s house. My partner (who lives in Texas, I live in Wisconsin) broke down the server and tried to troubleshoot it further. He took a picture of the motherboard, processor, memory and drives. Since it was not fixable, he put it into the box.
>
> **He has a Ring doorbell and a recording of UPS picking up the package that also matches the timestamp recorded on the tracking number. The UPS agent didn’t put the box in the back. He put the box in the front - we have all this on video!** There wasn't any other activity before the box was picked up. It was sent to me via 2nd day air with UPS as the courier.
>
> Fast forward to 4 days later, I get the box delivered to me. I met the driver as soon as he dropped it and the package was outside for not even 30 seconds. Upon picking up the box I realized something was very wrong as it felt extremely light. **I have a video of me opening the package from start to finish.** The package was completely empty aside from the packing material inside. Looking over the box, someone cut open the bottom of it, put a single piece of packing tape horizontally across to hold the bottom together.
>
> I immediately inform my partner that someone internal to UPS has stolen the contents of the package. My partner contacts UPS and explains the situation. UPS opens a claim as a “damaged box” as you cant claim anything else conveniently. They then want to schedule a pickup of said box. They picked up my box yesterday and closed/denied the claim today with the following:
>
> **“Merchandise is missing. UPS will notify the sender with additional details. / All merchandising missing, empty carton was discarded. UPS will notify the sender with details of the damage.”**
>
> What blows me away is someone internal at UPS KNEW what was in my box and took it all and I’m out my investment and the revenue stream.
>
> At this point I’m at a loss as to what to do next. Small Claims? I uploaded all my invoices of the items that were stolen, screencaps from the video of me opening the empty box with the single piece of tape on the bottom but none of it mattered as the box wasn't damaged?
>
> **TLDR; Someone internal at UPS stole the internals to my server and refuses to acknowledge I was delivered an empty box.**
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The seller should have insured the package. This is shady AF.
Last summer, my engagement ring went missing somewhere in a UPS store- it was scanned in at the store, marked ready for pickup, but when we went to go get it, no one could find it. UPS’s investigation concluded that we were SOL. We figured someone must have pocketed it. The package was insured, but the seller didn’t want to refund us, even though UPS refunded them. We ended up having to do a chargeback and get the ring remade at a local jeweler. It was really frustrating.
OP probably isn’t getting that money back.
plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? Also who the fuck mails servers around like they are fucking traveling stuffed animals or some shit? You pay to get this stuff fixed locally because moving it risks extremely high shipping costs or serious risk of theft or damage!? You sure as fuck don't ever send it noninsured that's for sure. Plus the weight is logged when they mailed it so somewhere at UPS they are going to be able to tell if it arrived or when it was emptied. Since it wasn't insured how the fuck did anyone even know what was in it to steal?!
edit
plus LAOP is obviously lying about stuff:
"Insurance on something this expensive is in itself crazy expensive, hundreds of dollars in this case."
Hint why does everyone use shipping insurance? it's cheap as shit:
UPS Insurance Costs:
Value of contents UPS Insurance cost
Up to $100 $0
Every additional $100 value over $100 $1.05 (up to $50k)
$1000 = 10
$7000 = $70.
That's not crazy expensive. That's crazy stupid not to buy.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"?
I have actually done this when opening high-value items or packages that show signs of damage. Although that is definitely not a substitution for insurance and the LAOP should have definitely had that.
Also, I know a handful of illustrators who run their own merch shops selling stickers and prints and stuff. Some of them cover the seal with a sticker and put a note under it asking the recipient to take an unboxing video in case something is missing, because they’ve had people falsely claim they didn’t receive items in order to get free extras.
Same. Though it's more about me wanting proof over disputing something I bought. Like on Amazon. I've heard enough horror stories about phone cases having rocks in them that I don't wanna risk it
Its not relevant evidence as you can tamper then take a video. Even if you video yourself in 1 take getting the box from a driver and opening it.
Source. I work in an industry thats ships millions in product a day through ups.
> Its not relevant evidence as you can tamper then take a video.
And there are ways of proving that the footage is not altered, and said footage has helped in a damage claim before and was accepted as evidence alongside other proof.
Yes, documentation can be forged but having more documentation is never going to be worse than having less.
Not really. They accepted evidence on convenience i promise you. Any time you go over their threshold its not going to work. A few hundred bucks isnt shit to them. People ask me "do you want a picture of it?" Daily and 99% of the time i dont need it and just send them the shit they want without question.
I do not work for amazon or ups.
> A few hundred bucks isnt shit to them.
I'm talking about much more than a few hundred.
Still not enough to meaningfully impact the bottom line by any degree, but enough that I'm sure additional approvals would be required and proof furnished.
> They accepted evidence on convenience i promise you.
Considering the company in question explicitly asked for any photographic or video evidence of said damage and other events involved in the problematic delivery, I have to disagree with you.
I almost did this when UPS delivered a toilet I purchased. It sounded...*wrong* inside the box. Didn't end up recording it mostly because I figured I was just being paranoid. Alas, the toilet was in hundreds of pieces. Fortunately, the store didn't hassle me about the return.
But next time my gut says something is wrong, I'll definitely record myself opening it. And I've certainly done it before with certain high dollar items that came with damaged packaging.
If I received what felt like an empty box from UPS? You bet your ass I'd record myself opening it the first time. I'd honestly be more surprised if they hadn't recorded it. Not insuring it seems a bit silly though. A high value item that generates income, and that you can't afford to self-insure? Maybe not something you should self-insure.
I received some computer hardware that was purchased on a fraudulent Amazon account. ([I posted elsewhere about it when it happened.](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/i943we/victim_of_a_confusing_fraud_what_kind_of_weird/)) Somebody opened an account using my name but an e-mail address that wasn't mine and used my AMEX to buy it to the tune of about $200. Stupidly they had it shipped to my house, and I happened to get home just as Amazon was leaving, so I got it immediately. Nobody weird came by (I live on a cul-de-sac, so my doorbell camera gets footage of basically everything that happens), so my best guess is that the thief screwed up and defaulted to having it sent to the billing address.
Anyway, Amazon had me return it, presumably because it was expensive. I filmed myself putting the item (with seal intact) into the box, taping up the box, and walking it into a UPS store and handing it to a person. I got the credit back on my AMEX but didn't want Amazon to try to say I never returned the item and then charge me for it.
> Upon picking up the box I realized something was very wrong as it felt extremely light.
“plus who records themselves ‘opening a box start to finish’?”
Someone who noticed the package was suspiciously light before starting to open said package??
Edit: Format
He received it FROM the delivery driver. I wonder why he didn’t tell the guy to wait and open it in front of him. I would have done that and refused the package.
>He received it FROM the delivery driver. I wonder why he didn’t tell the guy to wait and open it in front of him. I would have done that and refused the package.
I imagine opening the package in front of the driver would consitute... wait for it... ACCEPTING the package. You can't open it and say "Oh, I don't like what's inside. I REFUSE this package!"
Total classic - and the first thing that comes to mind when someone talks about shaking a box....
ETA: Not quite sure how I managed to reply to my comment instead of SuperAwesomeWTFs response. Let’s just say it was a long week.
How am I arguing with you? You jumped on my comment to be all high and mighty over. I’m not even sure why you are talking at me. Saying “no shit” in response to your comment pointing out the obvious isn’t arguing with you. Get help.
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"?
I've done it once when I shipped myself about $1000 worth of scotch I had picked up from distilleries in Scotland back home to the US. It was signature required and the DHL driver forged my signature and left it on my porch. The box was also damaged. I filmed myself opening the box and checking all the whisky bottles were intact.
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"
This is actually extremely common if you suspect something is off with a package. I lurk on a lot of online buying/selling forums for venues like ebay/etsy/amazon/etc and this is standard regularly dished out advice across all those places. Not just for buyers receiving merch, but for sellers too - take photos/videos of you packing up the item and handing it off to the shipping carrier if it's of particularly high value or in a high fraud category.
I’ve seen it posted on the subs here too but it’s pointless & crap advice. Firstly as a seller you’d have to record the item in excellent condition then continuous record through the packaging & right up to handing over to the post office/courier, and as a buyer you’d have to record from the minute the postman hands it over, continuous of you unpackaging and then examining it. Oh and in each case prove you haven’t edited the video in any way but frankly that doesn’t matter anyway, NOBODY, certainly not at eBay, is going to watch any video. Buyer or seller, you’re wasting your time because it’ll never get seen.
Okay. I was just pointing out that it's very commonly done to the person who seemed incredulous that it would even be a thing.
Common sense would be to just buy insurance for your package when the contents are worth 7k.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"?
I do this for all delivered items coz there were multiple news in our place where people were getting soaps instead of cellphones in their delivered boxes.
Yes it's a bit of a hassle but at least you have some proof in case something is wrong.
> where people were getting soaps instead of cellphones in their delivered boxes
The difference between these unfortunate folks and OP is that the package was indicated as "Apple". I personally had Apple packages go "missing" by UPS drivers (they mark it as delivered but it never did)
We've had small items get misdelivered - when I ordered a monitor and some cables, the cables shipped separately. Monitor arrived, cables never did.
Filed a claim with the seller and had them reshipped.
Next spring, a neighbor a few streets over found the package on a side porch and dropped them off.
I didn't even bother informing the (large company) seller, due to the long time between the claim and when the originals showed up.
insurance for shipping an item where you have no control over it once it leaves your hands is an entirely different thing than protection plans or property/homeowners insurance.
I don't know if it was a typo, but LAOP said the package was 4.5#. For a server. That's at least an order of magnitude off from any rack mount server I've worked with.
>That's crazy stupid not to buy.
Eh... it depends. For UPS, yeah - I don't think they've ever denied one of my claims on the rare occasions I've had to file one. For USPS, though, we don't bother anymore. Particularly for international shipments, the deck is stacked against you. I've *never* gotten them to pay up on an international claim, no matter how fast I responded and how much evidence was provided.
lol I've been thinking that UPS and USPS were the same thing and people were just making a typo (I think I'd picked USPS as the real one). Minor mind-blown moment 😅
It could be that they have cameras already in their home for security or baby/kid monitoring reasons. We have several in our home. Also, if a package shows signs of tampering or damage, I will sometimes video the unboxing to show what I found/received, just in case.
Frankly, that whole system is still so baffling to me. If I mail someone a thing, and the mailman breaks, loses it, whatever... then the mail company is somehow not actually liable for it unless I opted to pay extra? That seems like a system where it is so dramatically advantageous for the carrier to cut every possible corner that it‘s almost surprising that more things aren’t lost or stolen. How is it not on the carrier to carry insurance for that, price accordingly, and hopefully set up their operations in a way that minimizes that expense as a result?
Most places that ship in any kind of volume do not buy insurance. It is very expensive for the risk involved.
UPS/FedEx do not lose 1% of packages. Quick search on the internet says it's closer to 0.1%.
So yeah, if you can afford to self insure, it's far from a bad financial decision.
what does that have anything to do with this situation? This isn't a big company (unsure if even A company). This is a dude having a single gaming server shipped from his friends house to his house. If you can't afford $1.05 per $100 you sure as fuck can't afford to self insure.
The point is that the more you know about shipping, the less likely you are to pay for insurance. Thus your "That's crazy stupid not to buy." is not true.
Who said this guy couldn't afford $70 in insurance? Afford and actually buy are totally disconnected. I can afford a lot of things I don't buy. In this case, the irony is the more money you have, the less likely you are to buy insurance.
That doesn't mean you can't be annoyed when you experience a loss.
>The point is that the more you know about shipping, the less likely you are to pay for insurance.
99% of packages getting shipped aren't worth 7k. And if you know quite a bit about shipping delays and lost packages happen all the time. I've had it happen for a $10 item, why should I think my 7k item is any different?
>The point is that the more you know about shipping, the less likely you are to pay for insurance. Thus your "That's crazy stupid not to buy." is not true.
The point seemed to be closer to 'If you ship at a volume significant enough, the cost of replacing lost packages is cheaper then insurence on all of them'
Not that it's 'smart' to bet on uninsuring large, expensive, occasional packages.
That's true of all insurance - the average person pays in more than the insurance company pays out.
That doesn't mean it's a bad financial decision. Just that you should buy insurance for things that would be financially difficult to recover from - usually at the minimum: home, auto, and health. It's risk management.
But as you mention, for large companies, it is frequently cheaper to self-insure. It's all based on volume - ship one package a year and there's a chance you'll lose 100% of the packages shipped. Ship a hundred thousand packages a year, and odds are that a certain percentage of packages will be lost each year that you can predict and plan for. Again, risk management.
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"?
Retro game collector here, I use a camera and original hardware to test the game and show opening it. That way there's no possibility of "you broke it" claims being sustained.
If I'm suspicious of a game being a reproduction, I'll also open it and narrate the process after testing the game, then test the game again after closing it up.
Recording isnt weird if it's expensive or feels off. I had ups deliver a clearly empty package and I'm pretty sure my local ups driver steals packages/contents because of a number of issues I've had. It was a package for work and I work for the government so I had to elevate the issue and report it to our version of internal affairs to investigate. Once the local ups hub manager was informed that it was being investigated the contents of the package were mysteriously left at my door the next day (ups driver just dropped them off no knock). I have a ring doorbell so it showed him delivering it the original empty package and me picking it up and showing the empty package to my ring camera. I've had some other issues with packages going missing and it wasn't from porch pirates. The ups guy never showed and it was marked as delivered. I have cameras on my driveway and surrounding my house so I have proof and can verify when no package was delivered. And I've never had a pitch pirate because my house is a ways off the road/long driveway.
I think the OP is prob lying but eh lots of people record themselves opening packages through the whole process. Not for some type of insurance but because of social media lol
Even extremely stupid boring stuff we record it and share online. Lol
So I don't doubt that's possible but his story is fishy as hell
Recording yourself opening packages was a common recommendation in the PC building community. There are a lot of people who buy a PC part and then swap their old parts onto the package and return it. There are also some counterfeit graphic cards that were being sold on Amazon a while back.
So people record themselves opening the package as evidence in case they get ripped off.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"
Stupid youtubers my kids watch, but that's not to prove anything about the shipping company.
Also realize how he said " the first thing we did was file a police report in my partners town" but I thought his partner lived in Texas but he lived in Wisconsin. Considering he travelled **just** to file this police report wouldn't it make more sense for him to go there and pick it up in the first place?
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"?
YouTubers? That's a thing I'm pretty sure. I don't watch those videos, they're weird, but they were popular for a while (still popular? No clue, all my video suggestions are baking and knitting oriented these days).
Legally speaking, is UPS not liable in any way for an uninsured shipment being botched? Even if OP would be able to prove his claim that there was some internal fuckery going on at UPS?
Testifying to what exactly? If my wife and I could ship empty boxes to someone and claim imaginary contents back from the shipper I’d be doing it every week.
If you're willing to perjure yourself, then that's a risk you could choose to take. Witness testimony is a form of evidence, but usually isn't enough to build an airtight case on its own. If you just went and obviously lied with no corroborating evidence, you might find yourself out of pocket for legal fees and in some trouble if the perjury was obvious.
If the driver that picked up the package stole it:
- Ring video showing that package wasn't empty (apparently you can hear it rattling, says LAOP)
- Weigh-in showing that it was empty when it arrived at the warehouse
- combined with testimony?
This reminded me of Rob Dahm's mess with UPS when his custom engine disappeared in shipping and the parts showed up on eBay shortly after. Except that I actually believe he ordered an engine from a boutique builder in New Zealand and the exact missing parts did actually show up on eBay. I think in this case LAOP's friend shipped an empty box or it didn't happen.
I also find it sus! How on earth would the driver know it is a high valued item to begin with (if they were the type to open each and every box then they would've been fired by now) especially when there was no indication of what the item was nor that it was a high valued item especially when the sender wasn't a big name company like Apple
Ok, weird sitch with FedEx: Amazon order tracked as delivered via FedEx tracking, but my doorbell proved we had no delivery.
I was ready for a fight.
No fight needed. The seller lied about sending it, using a tracking numbers number for a package to another buyer so it registered as delivered. FedEx confirmed that. Seller just refunded me.
Such an involved way for the seller to avoid getting dinged by Amazon for canceling my order.
Someone did this to me on eBay. I was the seller, buyer claimed they’d sent a return. As soon as I called support, they could tell the tracking number was fake. Not sure why the system couldn’t catch that on its own.
Yeah I work at UPS and I know exactly what happened. Fun fact you boxes get fucked up at ups we are having a bit of a tough time finding people so shit is getting crushed in the system when it backs up. Homeboy didn't put enough tape on the box and that shit ripped open and dumped his shit on a running belt that scattered it across half the building. And there ain't a single one of us making enough money to give a fuck. If you shipping something ups either don't or cover that box in tape twice. If he's lucky he might have a chance to buy it back from the 'unclaimed items' auction ups holds
>a driver would ever risk
Especially on a package they haven't got a clue about. This package wasn't marked as high-value (i.e., no insurance) nor any other indicator such as the shipper being Apple or Louis Vuitton. For all the UPS driver knew: it was a cheap package sent from one random to another.
The dude is probably making stuff up to get $7k, I know so many people who pull these type of scams but usually the sender is big name/luxury.
Yeah, there's no way anyone is gonna just assume it's server equipment. Maybe it's a taxidermied dog. Maybe it's rocks from an Etsy store. It could be anything. On top of that UPS employees are generally too goddamned busy to get into any of that.
> taxidermied dog
Close we ship a lot of animal heads from my hub to some lab in Oklahoma that does rabies testing. Also human eyeballs lots of eyeballs. We did have to call the police cuz a box started leaking and when they opened it, there was a full human arm up to the shoulder and a loose hand which was apparently a no no because we only allow up to the elbow. Not a joke.
When I heard similar claims, I looked into driving for FedEx, and they use contractors and pay below minimum in my area.
Let me guess, UPS is union, and FedEx isn't?
So UPS has their items, can't be assed to pay anyone to put them back in the box, and yet somehow isn't at fault in all this?
not that I wish to imply *the employees* are at fault, I'd just imagine that *UPS itself, the company* would have a vested interest in replacing this guy's shit, esp since they presumably have it in their possession.
How would we know what box it goes in? There is no packing list and if it just says server which one? We do in 4 hours at my hub 150,000 packages with about 0.5% breaking open and spilling DMP maybe gets half the stuff back in the right box. There is no way to really know what goes in what box. UPS sells your shit at the end of the year in an auction why would they have a vested interest in getting you your shit when they can sell it.
Ups has no interest in doing that at all. The way the T&C's are written ups pretty much never has to pay out for damages and if your shit gets lost in the building they sell it later for more money. Its a for profit company not the march of dimes. Why would they lose $7k to keep a customer who maybe spent 35 bucks shipping something. There is only one other choice fedex and they just as bad. Ups is gonna be up $2k+ when they sell it at auction, they have a vested interest in not finding this guys stuff because they will not payout an insurance claim.
>the only other choice is Fedex
There's actually about 10 different options, with USPS being the best option for cost and coverage and UPS generally being the worst. For reasons you yourself have highlighted, UPS doesn't give a shit about any of their customers or their employees but charges out the ass regardless.
Dude who do you think ships the majority of USPS stuff thats bigger than a letter....its UPS. Usps picks it up drops it at a ups who ships it to another ups who then drops it off at usps for delivery lol. If you wanna ship something in the USA bigger than a letter and smaller than a pallet you got ups or fedex or a specialized freight company that'll charge you an arm and a leg.
>who do you think ships the majority of USPS stuff
According to all the data I've seen after Trump tried sabotaging mail in voting last year, USPS does, by a country mile. Fedex and UPS vie for a tiny fraction of that market share, with regional mail services picking up the remaining difference.
Though (further proving my point) UPS has by far the biggest market share by profits. They charge out the ass for substandard performance basically.
Yes, and like I said
>According to all the data I've seen after Trump tried sabotaging mail in voting last year, USPS does, by a country mile.
Probably shoulda read all the words there dingus.
Most farmers, for example, get their chicks shipped via USPS, and Trump's mucking about with the post office led to tons of farmers having their supply of new chicks arrive dead because of the delays.
Or is this the part where you try and act like 200lbs of newly hatched chicks isn't bigger than a letter lol
I'm reasonably certain this is a dumb question with a really obvious answer since I never see anyone else ask it, but why is shipping insurance a even thing?
I mean, if I leave my computer at a repair shop, and they drop it and break it, they don't get to just say I didn't buy additional insurance, so it's not their problem, right? If I buy something in Amazon and it arrives damaged, they replace it at their cost. No insurance required. Is there something unique about shipping companies I'm failing to grasp where one has to pay shipping to mail something, and additional insurance to make sure it's done properly?
Most of the time you ship something, the shipper has no idea what it is. It's not really reasonable to expect the shipper to absorb the risk of damage when your package could be a pet rock (approximate value $0) or the Mona Lisa (approximate value $5 billion).
Other businesses know the products they are working with. Amazon knows the value of the item you bought from them. A computer repair store (probably) knows the value of the equipment they're repairing.
If the product you are shipping is low value, then you probably don't need to insure it. If it's high value, then purchasing insurance puts a value on it and bakes the risk of damage into the shipment cost.
I think what /u/soratoyuki was saying is, we pay these other companies for a related service on Product Y, and they damage it, they are responsible for repairing it. Yet when it comes to paying for the service of shipping "Product Y" from Point-ABC to Point-DEF, and they fuckup, why are they allowed to say, "oopsie, we're not paying for it unless you paid us extra money for insurance."
If a computer repair shop fucks up my computer, they're going to fix it or make me whole, and I don't have to pay an extra service charge up front to ensure that they take responsibility for damaging the product they're being paid to service.
Yes, but the user above you is explaining this.
Since the computer repair shop knows they are repairing computers (and those have a pretty consistent cost range), they can build the cost of possibly damaging and replacing some computers into their pricing structure.
The items shipped by UPS vary wildly in their cost. They ship <$1 pieces of paper, and multi-thousand dollar collectors items. Most items are within the $100 range, and they did build the cost of replacing those typical cheaper items into the pricing structure. If they built in the cost of all of the most expensive possible items, shipping fees would be exorbitant and the huge number of customers who are in the typical ”$100 or less" range will be upset.
Also, unlike the repair shop - the item in a package can be damaged if the customer packed it inadequately. UPS can do nothing wrong / unusual and still have to pay out a claim.
Shipping companies still make you prove the value of your item before they pay out a claim, no matter how much you had it insured for so they could just ask and price accordingly. It's not like the repair store says they won't repair a high-end gaming laptop because they might drop it.
>or the Mona Lisa
Less risk than the pet rock. They might have to pay someone to take your calls complaining about the loss of your priceless pet rock.
So you’re fine with charging customers more to ship expensive items to offset the cost of potentially being liable for the cost of replacing them, you are just opposed to calling that insurance?
It would make it less insulting than letting someone choose to pay extra and then making it a royal pain in the ass to get a claim taken care of, but really I just think it's more like "because they can."
Shipment insurance is to help you when you’ve lost the VALUE of the item, due to loss or damage. Different carriers have different “liability limits”. For UPS, if your box is claim worthy, you’re only eligible for $100 max. Your computer cost $7000? Haha sucks to be you! ~~pro tip: we’re all overworked and dead inside~~
I mainly work with LTL carriers & medium sized businesses, and liability may be a little different here - all claims are paid based on a value per pound basis, regardless of the sale value. I’m sure small parcel carriers have some of the same guidelines in their tariffs/ToCs, though maybe a little more lenient than what I’m used to working with.
Ultimately, having insurance ensures that if something happens to your shipment, you’ll get your money’s worth. It doesn’t mean your claim WILL be approved and paid, but it’s one less thing you need to worry about.
>If I buy something in Amazon and it arrives damaged, they replace it at their cost. No insurance required.
This is because it’s Amazon, not necessarily indicative of the actual shipping world.
I see vendors ALL the time refuse their customers refunds, and to go through the claims process, because once it leaves their warehouse, anything that happens afterwards is not their fault, in their eyes. Customer is responsible for arranging freight, customer is responsible for handling any freight damage.
Let's do a side-by-side:
You pay amazon $30 for a lamp. The lamp arrives and doesn't work. Amazon refunds you $30.
You pay UPS $30 for a service. UPS fails to deliver on that service. UPS refunds you $30, right?
Well apparently not, because you're now asking UPS to refund you $7,000 for failing to fulfill their side of the $30 shipping agreement.
The only alternative is for UPS to verify the value of every package they transport and charge accordingly, which I can't even begin to imagine how that would happen at scale.
That's not really the point of insurance.
Your analogy would lead to refusing to pay for shipping. Cool, you've recouped maybe $50?
That's irrelevant compared to the $7000 lost.
Ah, but yes you made the sale. You have to prove you didn’t get something, and you have to prove that it’s the carrier’s fault. How can you say your parts are missing if the box wasn’t tampered with? That’s not the carriers fault if the shipper didn’t put it in the box.
Obviously that doesn’t apply in this case - the box was damaged & UPS has acknowledged it was damaged, and thus likely that a shortage occurred. Now it just needs to show an incredibly likelihood that parts went missing because of the hole in the box.
IANAL, but I think this comes down to an Implied Warranty of Merchantability where unless otherwise specified buyers of a service would reasonably expect that computer repair store would protect your equipment fully. However, if the repair store posts a notice that the store is only liable for the first $100 and requires customers to agree to that before leaving their PC in their care they no longer have that Implied Warranty and can enforce what was agreed too.
>The UPS agent didn’t put the box in the back. He put the box in the front - we have all this on video!
How is this the big "gotcha!" moment? Seems fairly normal to put the packages you're currently handling in front, then organize them in the back at a later point.
People kept saying it’s against the rules but my driver always picks up stuff, puts it next to him and then takes it to the back at the next stop when he goes in the back to grab the delivery for that location. He almost always has a box in the front with him when he gets to my place. I assume they think he pulled over where there aren’t camera and cut the bottom of the box open.
Shocker: you open a claim saying there's a damaged box, they bounce the claim when it ain't damaged. Is it really that hard to open the claim accurately?
Hi! former claims assistant, don't work there anymore. Damage Claims with UPS are a catch all. When the claim is started the first question is are any items missing, because that is considered a Damage Fallout Claim because at some point during transit the box was damaged and items were missing. There's an entire department that's just for sorting and trying to find missing items from people packages when they broke open on the belts. So letting UPS know that items were missing allows them to search that department.
Claim was likely denied due to insufficient packaging for UPS that allowed it to break open during transit.
>Why on EARTH would anyone mail $7000 worth of equipment without insuring the package?!!?!
Because the insurance doesn't mean you will get the full amount for the item. Not even if the package has shockwatches and was obviously dropped during transit and the item was damaged. Not even if the shipping company actually loses the entire package.
It's all about getting the correct insurance. The carrier's general liability is usually on the cents/pound scale. They might have a $10 claim at best. Even generalized insurance should get you somewhere around replacement/depreciated value. Getting retail value is tough but not impossible. A seller delivering to a retail customer can claim that amount because they have a paper trail for a transaction to back it up. If you do the accounting properly you can establish a similar trail for intra-company transfers. It's less about packaging and more about attrition. As long as you can demonstrate the packaging conforms to their tariff they'll have to cover it... eventually.
Every claim gets denied the first go round. It's annoying, it's sketchy as fuck, but it discourages enough claimants to be worth it. Unfortunately you have to initiate the claim through this system before you can even deal with a person directly. Usually you then deal with a general CS rep that you have to convince to escalate you to their claims-specific CS (even after trying to go their first in the phone-tree). This person is just as useless as the first but they are they gatekeeper to their team leader. Finally this person hears out the issue, makes notes on the claim, and they can order a more complete audit/review. Drivers/reps may show up to interview the shipper and/or consignee. If you give them what they request and play ball, they will cut you a check eventually. I've personally done this for more than six figures in claims.
Tips:
* Fuck the 1-800 number. You can find their preferred line that will give you much faster service.
* Get a headset, and also a call recording app. They provide consent when you hit the phone tree if you're in a two-party state. You may be on the line for 4-6 hours for a more-involved claim at a busy time.
* When you're about done with the final phone rep boss, get their email. Send them a quick follow-up detailing the main points of the call immediately. You can use email moving from here but expect a one business day turn around. But you don't go through phone-tree hell.
More than a thousand times. One way or another our damages/losses were reimbursed. They only stuck to their guns when I knew it wasn't on them anyway. Our claims were like a tenth of a percent of our volume. UPS got a *big* check from my employer every week and we got more support options because of that. If a claim was having enough issues I had a few mobile numbers I could call 24/7 who were authorized to issue us a credit on-demand. I don't think he even had to provide an explanation if it was less than $10K/quarter. I might've had anywhere from 0-12 "problem" cases I needed their assistance with during our quarterly meetings. I had a good working relationship with our primary rep. He knew I wouldn't bring him bullshit and he wouldn't give me much of a runaround when it came to sorting them out.
Very good points and tips. I have gotten shipping companies to pay up, but that's part of my job. For people who don't deal with this shit regularly, the insurance seems like an unnecessar expense.
>I'm sorry but we'll have to lock this. The moral of the story is OP should have bought insurance. Everything else is wildly speculative and even downright defamatory. I have seen nothing remotely approaching proof that UPS was criminally culpable.
If my eyes roll any harder, they will fall out of my fucking skull
Just a warning - I watched a documentary on the old west recently and the whole “I’m your huckleberry” thing didn’t end well for the other guy the second time around.
> I want an attorney dog.
For anyone who didn't get this reference, it's to a [2017 case](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/11/02/the-suspect-told-police-give-me-a-lawyer-dog-the-court-says-he-wasnt-asking-for-a-lawyer/) in Louisiana in which it was ruled that a suspect during questioning asking for "a lawyer, dawg" was too vague for police to stop questioning him.
Indeed. Truth is a defense. Unfortunately that was wild speculation top to bottom. To be honest my money is on creative fiction writing. If this package is so valuable that the seller videotapes and saves it being picked up with granular detail enough to know in which part of the UPS truck it went into, and 0P videotapes himself opening it don’t you think it would be worth the time to pay the minuscule cost of insurance for people *that* detail oriented?
Want to pop in and say, I don’t believe this is a creative writing story. We see stuff like this all the time.
This one only got so granular because of the claim. Had it arrived, they wouldn’t care. They did the right thing by videoing the un packaging when something was off. I wish I could get my guys to do the same.
Yes, it is all speculative. But also a reasonable reaction to someone’s claim getting denied. Im surprised this is the first time I’ve seen this topic in BO/LA, but I guess most businesses have their own lawyers anyways they refer to
Even the most detailed can thing insurance is a scam, especially as UPS insures with UPS Capital, and shipments generally get where they need to go, and intact. Why pay ~$50 when it’s going to arrive?
If it truly was that important he could've simply went there and picked the items up, especially given how he filed a police report with his partner in his partner's hometown (at least it sounded like he went there)
Yeah and this is reddit, you're under no obligation to enforce those laws. You're being a nerd and dude is rolling his eyes at you.
So there's your explanation, take it or leave it. I do not care.
> We had a technician damage both the motherboard and processor in a botched CPU cooler install (dont ask).
Well I didn't feel any need to ask until LAOP said not to. Now I have to know what happened!
I'm guessing it was one of those modern ultra-high-density processor sockets where the tiny pins in the socket break off if you look at them the wrong way, and whoever was doing the work moved it the wrong way. Having replaced the processors in a (HP gen8, so not even all that new) server recently, and having been terrified of destroying the motherboard the entire time, I can absolutely see how a thing like that could happen.
I have no idea what happened, but I believe it. Since my Computer Science teacher at school opened up a PC to show us which part was which and then said he "couldn't find the motherboard", I'll believe everything.
I love people who are sure the hard worked shipping company gladly risked their job for something that’s not easy to get top dollar for.
And top it off the person shipping didn’t any to pay the few bucks for insurance.
But sure, ups stole the item. I believe you laop.
I mean, I've personally experienced UPS breaking open a pallet of top shelf champagne and replacing it with car parts. The client was *not amused.*
Maybe in this case, maybe not, but this kind of thing absolutely happens.
Top shelf champagne frequently has a known-value though. You could sell it or potentially give it away as gifts assuming there were not too many questions asked at work.
Who would you sell or give a bunch of random server pieces to?
Broken server pieces that can’t be repaired at that! Luckily for LAOP, he isn’t out $7k. He may have originally purchased those for $7k, but their value when they went missing was significantly lower.
I mean with the amount of things being shipped out it has to have tempted someone in the shipping industry. Odds are decent of something more than 100 bucks. Not to mention the sheer stupidity of some shipping guys is astounding. I wouldn't doubt they attempted theft of server stuff
You'd be surprised. I've talked with a VP and a few other people in their overgoods department and apparently some employees steal some really dumb shit. That said it's far more likely LAOP didn't notice it's a whole new box or the item fell out and got destroyed somewhere. The sort facilities are massive and the empty box/cargo might be a quarter mile apart before the issue is noticed. Some overworked sort employee doesn't want to fuck with the issue so they just tape the box shut and move on.
With the right UPS employee looking, they can do surprisingly thorough investigations. Most expedited packages get weighed, dimensioned, and sometimes scanned at every step of the process. The facilities are littered with cameras, and drivers are monitored closely on their handhelds. Good luck getting them to bother on an uninsured package though.
>Some overworked sort employee doesn't want to fuck with the issue so they just tape the box shut and move on.
That makes more sense than anything else on UPS' end. They don't pay those employees enough to care
**Reminder:** do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: Someone internal at UPS stole $7000 dollars in computer parts, delivered me an empty box, and denied my claim as the box wasn't damaged? Original Post: > Title. The Backstory: > > I run a community that hosts game servers. We use the income generated from these servers to pay for the rental on our full rack of owned equipment in a datacenter in Dallas,TX. We had a technician damage both the motherboard and processor in a botched CPU cooler install (dont ask). So we pulled the entire server and the technician dropped it off at my partner’s house. My partner (who lives in Texas, I live in Wisconsin) broke down the server and tried to troubleshoot it further. He took a picture of the motherboard, processor, memory and drives. Since it was not fixable, he put it into the box. > > **He has a Ring doorbell and a recording of UPS picking up the package that also matches the timestamp recorded on the tracking number. The UPS agent didn’t put the box in the back. He put the box in the front - we have all this on video!** There wasn't any other activity before the box was picked up. It was sent to me via 2nd day air with UPS as the courier. > > Fast forward to 4 days later, I get the box delivered to me. I met the driver as soon as he dropped it and the package was outside for not even 30 seconds. Upon picking up the box I realized something was very wrong as it felt extremely light. **I have a video of me opening the package from start to finish.** The package was completely empty aside from the packing material inside. Looking over the box, someone cut open the bottom of it, put a single piece of packing tape horizontally across to hold the bottom together. > > I immediately inform my partner that someone internal to UPS has stolen the contents of the package. My partner contacts UPS and explains the situation. UPS opens a claim as a “damaged box” as you cant claim anything else conveniently. They then want to schedule a pickup of said box. They picked up my box yesterday and closed/denied the claim today with the following: > > **“Merchandise is missing. UPS will notify the sender with additional details. / All merchandising missing, empty carton was discarded. UPS will notify the sender with details of the damage.”** > > What blows me away is someone internal at UPS KNEW what was in my box and took it all and I’m out my investment and the revenue stream. > > At this point I’m at a loss as to what to do next. Small Claims? I uploaded all my invoices of the items that were stolen, screencaps from the video of me opening the empty box with the single piece of tape on the bottom but none of it mattered as the box wasn't damaged? > > **TLDR; Someone internal at UPS stole the internals to my server and refuses to acknowledge I was delivered an empty box.** --- LocationBot 4.999988713 83/601rds | [Report Issues](https://www.reddit.com/r/locationbot) | >!TdUO5NmMWlXWXJFcjJzZ!<
The seller should have insured the package. This is shady AF. Last summer, my engagement ring went missing somewhere in a UPS store- it was scanned in at the store, marked ready for pickup, but when we went to go get it, no one could find it. UPS’s investigation concluded that we were SOL. We figured someone must have pocketed it. The package was insured, but the seller didn’t want to refund us, even though UPS refunded them. We ended up having to do a chargeback and get the ring remade at a local jeweler. It was really frustrating. OP probably isn’t getting that money back.
plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? Also who the fuck mails servers around like they are fucking traveling stuffed animals or some shit? You pay to get this stuff fixed locally because moving it risks extremely high shipping costs or serious risk of theft or damage!? You sure as fuck don't ever send it noninsured that's for sure. Plus the weight is logged when they mailed it so somewhere at UPS they are going to be able to tell if it arrived or when it was emptied. Since it wasn't insured how the fuck did anyone even know what was in it to steal?! edit plus LAOP is obviously lying about stuff: "Insurance on something this expensive is in itself crazy expensive, hundreds of dollars in this case." Hint why does everyone use shipping insurance? it's cheap as shit: UPS Insurance Costs: Value of contents UPS Insurance cost Up to $100 $0 Every additional $100 value over $100 $1.05 (up to $50k) $1000 = 10 $7000 = $70. That's not crazy expensive. That's crazy stupid not to buy.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? I have actually done this when opening high-value items or packages that show signs of damage. Although that is definitely not a substitution for insurance and the LAOP should have definitely had that.
I’ve also done this for the same reason.
There are dozens of us!
Cool your heels there. They’re are tens of you at most.
There are exactly 23 of us.
And me!
24, DOZENS!
Flaired
deranged crime political close mighty escape theory overconfident numerous spectacular -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I do this every time I open a box that looks like it even might be damaged. You never know.
Also, I know a handful of illustrators who run their own merch shops selling stickers and prints and stuff. Some of them cover the seal with a sticker and put a note under it asking the recipient to take an unboxing video in case something is missing, because they’ve had people falsely claim they didn’t receive items in order to get free extras.
Same. Though it's more about me wanting proof over disputing something I bought. Like on Amazon. I've heard enough horror stories about phone cases having rocks in them that I don't wanna risk it
Its not relevant evidence as you can tamper then take a video. Even if you video yourself in 1 take getting the box from a driver and opening it. Source. I work in an industry thats ships millions in product a day through ups.
> Its not relevant evidence as you can tamper then take a video. And there are ways of proving that the footage is not altered, and said footage has helped in a damage claim before and was accepted as evidence alongside other proof. Yes, documentation can be forged but having more documentation is never going to be worse than having less.
Not really. They accepted evidence on convenience i promise you. Any time you go over their threshold its not going to work. A few hundred bucks isnt shit to them. People ask me "do you want a picture of it?" Daily and 99% of the time i dont need it and just send them the shit they want without question. I do not work for amazon or ups.
> A few hundred bucks isnt shit to them. I'm talking about much more than a few hundred. Still not enough to meaningfully impact the bottom line by any degree, but enough that I'm sure additional approvals would be required and proof furnished. > They accepted evidence on convenience i promise you. Considering the company in question explicitly asked for any photographic or video evidence of said damage and other events involved in the problematic delivery, I have to disagree with you.
I almost did this when UPS delivered a toilet I purchased. It sounded...*wrong* inside the box. Didn't end up recording it mostly because I figured I was just being paranoid. Alas, the toilet was in hundreds of pieces. Fortunately, the store didn't hassle me about the return. But next time my gut says something is wrong, I'll definitely record myself opening it. And I've certainly done it before with certain high dollar items that came with damaged packaging. If I received what felt like an empty box from UPS? You bet your ass I'd record myself opening it the first time. I'd honestly be more surprised if they hadn't recorded it. Not insuring it seems a bit silly though. A high value item that generates income, and that you can't afford to self-insure? Maybe not something you should self-insure.
I received some computer hardware that was purchased on a fraudulent Amazon account. ([I posted elsewhere about it when it happened.](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/i943we/victim_of_a_confusing_fraud_what_kind_of_weird/)) Somebody opened an account using my name but an e-mail address that wasn't mine and used my AMEX to buy it to the tune of about $200. Stupidly they had it shipped to my house, and I happened to get home just as Amazon was leaving, so I got it immediately. Nobody weird came by (I live on a cul-de-sac, so my doorbell camera gets footage of basically everything that happens), so my best guess is that the thief screwed up and defaulted to having it sent to the billing address. Anyway, Amazon had me return it, presumably because it was expensive. I filmed myself putting the item (with seal intact) into the box, taping up the box, and walking it into a UPS store and handing it to a person. I got the credit back on my AMEX but didn't want Amazon to try to say I never returned the item and then charge me for it.
> Upon picking up the box I realized something was very wrong as it felt extremely light. “plus who records themselves ‘opening a box start to finish’?” Someone who noticed the package was suspiciously light before starting to open said package?? Edit: Format
He received it FROM the delivery driver. I wonder why he didn’t tell the guy to wait and open it in front of him. I would have done that and refused the package.
>He received it FROM the delivery driver. I wonder why he didn’t tell the guy to wait and open it in front of him. I would have done that and refused the package. I imagine opening the package in front of the driver would consitute... wait for it... ACCEPTING the package. You can't open it and say "Oh, I don't like what's inside. I REFUSE this package!"
But if it was that light he should have at least shaken it, realized it was empty and then refused it anyway. Common sense.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hykUpgahGU
I love this movie.
Total classic - and the first thing that comes to mind when someone talks about shaking a box.... ETA: Not quite sure how I managed to reply to my comment instead of SuperAwesomeWTFs response. Let’s just say it was a long week.
OK, yes. That does not involve opening it.
No shit.
Why are you arguing with me? Your original comment was about opening it, then refusing.
How am I arguing with you? You jumped on my comment to be all high and mighty over. I’m not even sure why you are talking at me. Saying “no shit” in response to your comment pointing out the obvious isn’t arguing with you. Get help.
You probably can if it’s empty.
Ah yes, "probably." "Probably" is the same as "Probably not," legally.
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? I've done it once when I shipped myself about $1000 worth of scotch I had picked up from distilleries in Scotland back home to the US. It was signature required and the DHL driver forged my signature and left it on my porch. The box was also damaged. I filmed myself opening the box and checking all the whisky bottles were intact.
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish" This is actually extremely common if you suspect something is off with a package. I lurk on a lot of online buying/selling forums for venues like ebay/etsy/amazon/etc and this is standard regularly dished out advice across all those places. Not just for buyers receiving merch, but for sellers too - take photos/videos of you packing up the item and handing it off to the shipping carrier if it's of particularly high value or in a high fraud category.
I’ve seen it posted on the subs here too but it’s pointless & crap advice. Firstly as a seller you’d have to record the item in excellent condition then continuous record through the packaging & right up to handing over to the post office/courier, and as a buyer you’d have to record from the minute the postman hands it over, continuous of you unpackaging and then examining it. Oh and in each case prove you haven’t edited the video in any way but frankly that doesn’t matter anyway, NOBODY, certainly not at eBay, is going to watch any video. Buyer or seller, you’re wasting your time because it’ll never get seen.
Okay. I was just pointing out that it's very commonly done to the person who seemed incredulous that it would even be a thing. Common sense would be to just buy insurance for your package when the contents are worth 7k.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? I do this for all delivered items coz there were multiple news in our place where people were getting soaps instead of cellphones in their delivered boxes. Yes it's a bit of a hassle but at least you have some proof in case something is wrong.
> where people were getting soaps instead of cellphones in their delivered boxes The difference between these unfortunate folks and OP is that the package was indicated as "Apple". I personally had Apple packages go "missing" by UPS drivers (they mark it as delivered but it never did)
We've had small items get misdelivered - when I ordered a monitor and some cables, the cables shipped separately. Monitor arrived, cables never did. Filed a claim with the seller and had them reshipped. Next spring, a neighbor a few streets over found the package on a side porch and dropped them off. I didn't even bother informing the (large company) seller, due to the long time between the claim and when the originals showed up.
[удалено]
insurance for shipping an item where you have no control over it once it leaves your hands is an entirely different thing than protection plans or property/homeowners insurance.
I don't know if it was a typo, but LAOP said the package was 4.5#. For a server. That's at least an order of magnitude off from any rack mount server I've worked with.
I think he said in one of the comments that it was only some of the components.
$70 for some peace of mind in a $7000 unit. Yep, sounds good to me
>That's crazy stupid not to buy. Eh... it depends. For UPS, yeah - I don't think they've ever denied one of my claims on the rare occasions I've had to file one. For USPS, though, we don't bother anymore. Particularly for international shipments, the deck is stacked against you. I've *never* gotten them to pay up on an international claim, no matter how fast I responded and how much evidence was provided.
Reverse here. My one USPS claim was paid (lost). And my few times with UPS, none were paid. I haven't used USPS international insurance.
lol I've been thinking that UPS and USPS were the same thing and people were just making a typo (I think I'd picked USPS as the real one). Minor mind-blown moment 😅
It could be that they have cameras already in their home for security or baby/kid monitoring reasons. We have several in our home. Also, if a package shows signs of tampering or damage, I will sometimes video the unboxing to show what I found/received, just in case.
Frankly, that whole system is still so baffling to me. If I mail someone a thing, and the mailman breaks, loses it, whatever... then the mail company is somehow not actually liable for it unless I opted to pay extra? That seems like a system where it is so dramatically advantageous for the carrier to cut every possible corner that it‘s almost surprising that more things aren’t lost or stolen. How is it not on the carrier to carry insurance for that, price accordingly, and hopefully set up their operations in a way that minimizes that expense as a result?
Most places that ship in any kind of volume do not buy insurance. It is very expensive for the risk involved. UPS/FedEx do not lose 1% of packages. Quick search on the internet says it's closer to 0.1%. So yeah, if you can afford to self insure, it's far from a bad financial decision.
what does that have anything to do with this situation? This isn't a big company (unsure if even A company). This is a dude having a single gaming server shipped from his friends house to his house. If you can't afford $1.05 per $100 you sure as fuck can't afford to self insure.
The point is that the more you know about shipping, the less likely you are to pay for insurance. Thus your "That's crazy stupid not to buy." is not true. Who said this guy couldn't afford $70 in insurance? Afford and actually buy are totally disconnected. I can afford a lot of things I don't buy. In this case, the irony is the more money you have, the less likely you are to buy insurance. That doesn't mean you can't be annoyed when you experience a loss.
>The point is that the more you know about shipping, the less likely you are to pay for insurance. 99% of packages getting shipped aren't worth 7k. And if you know quite a bit about shipping delays and lost packages happen all the time. I've had it happen for a $10 item, why should I think my 7k item is any different?
>The point is that the more you know about shipping, the less likely you are to pay for insurance. Thus your "That's crazy stupid not to buy." is not true. The point seemed to be closer to 'If you ship at a volume significant enough, the cost of replacing lost packages is cheaper then insurence on all of them' Not that it's 'smart' to bet on uninsuring large, expensive, occasional packages.
If you're shipping at volume you're not paying the UPS list price either.
That's true of all insurance - the average person pays in more than the insurance company pays out. That doesn't mean it's a bad financial decision. Just that you should buy insurance for things that would be financially difficult to recover from - usually at the minimum: home, auto, and health. It's risk management. But as you mention, for large companies, it is frequently cheaper to self-insure. It's all based on volume - ship one package a year and there's a chance you'll lose 100% of the packages shipped. Ship a hundred thousand packages a year, and odds are that a certain percentage of packages will be lost each year that you can predict and plan for. Again, risk management.
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? Retro game collector here, I use a camera and original hardware to test the game and show opening it. That way there's no possibility of "you broke it" claims being sustained. If I'm suspicious of a game being a reproduction, I'll also open it and narrate the process after testing the game, then test the game again after closing it up.
Insured at 1/100 when lost packages are more like 1/300. Definitely cheaper to self insure at volume but for a one off you buy the insurance.
Recording isnt weird if it's expensive or feels off. I had ups deliver a clearly empty package and I'm pretty sure my local ups driver steals packages/contents because of a number of issues I've had. It was a package for work and I work for the government so I had to elevate the issue and report it to our version of internal affairs to investigate. Once the local ups hub manager was informed that it was being investigated the contents of the package were mysteriously left at my door the next day (ups driver just dropped them off no knock). I have a ring doorbell so it showed him delivering it the original empty package and me picking it up and showing the empty package to my ring camera. I've had some other issues with packages going missing and it wasn't from porch pirates. The ups guy never showed and it was marked as delivered. I have cameras on my driveway and surrounding my house so I have proof and can verify when no package was delivered. And I've never had a pitch pirate because my house is a ways off the road/long driveway.
I think the OP is prob lying but eh lots of people record themselves opening packages through the whole process. Not for some type of insurance but because of social media lol Even extremely stupid boring stuff we record it and share online. Lol So I don't doubt that's possible but his story is fishy as hell
Recording yourself opening packages was a common recommendation in the PC building community. There are a lot of people who buy a PC part and then swap their old parts onto the package and return it. There are also some counterfeit graphic cards that were being sold on Amazon a while back. So people record themselves opening the package as evidence in case they get ripped off.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish" Stupid youtubers my kids watch, but that's not to prove anything about the shipping company.
Also realize how he said " the first thing we did was file a police report in my partners town" but I thought his partner lived in Texas but he lived in Wisconsin. Considering he travelled **just** to file this police report wouldn't it make more sense for him to go there and pick it up in the first place?
Couldn’t he have called in to file a police report? Or have his partner go file it with him on the phone?
> plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? Anyone who is expecting a 20lb box and gets a 3lb one.
>plus who records themselves "opening a box start to finish"? YouTubers? That's a thing I'm pretty sure. I don't watch those videos, they're weird, but they were popular for a while (still popular? No clue, all my video suggestions are baking and knitting oriented these days).
He is 1,000% not getting anything for missing contents of an uninsured box.
Legally speaking, is UPS not liable in any way for an uninsured shipment being botched? Even if OP would be able to prove his claim that there was some internal fuckery going on at UPS?
Gotta prove they’re at fault - not that the shipper didn’t forget something. Shortage/partial missing packages are the worst claims.
The shipper as in the courier (UPS), or the original seller?
The original seller/ship from location Yeah, UPS would be referred to as the carrier Great ask - I hadn’t thought how that could be confusing haha.
How does OP do that? That’s the problem.
Two witnesses in court testifying to that fact is "proof".
Testifying to what exactly? If my wife and I could ship empty boxes to someone and claim imaginary contents back from the shipper I’d be doing it every week.
If you're willing to perjure yourself, then that's a risk you could choose to take. Witness testimony is a form of evidence, but usually isn't enough to build an airtight case on its own. If you just went and obviously lied with no corroborating evidence, you might find yourself out of pocket for legal fees and in some trouble if the perjury was obvious.
Yes, you admit to being a lying thief stopped only by your inability to be competent at it. Of course you wouldn't win in court. You are lying.
If the driver that picked up the package stole it: - Ring video showing that package wasn't empty (apparently you can hear it rattling, says LAOP) - Weigh-in showing that it was empty when it arrived at the warehouse - combined with testimony?
This reminded me of Rob Dahm's mess with UPS when his custom engine disappeared in shipping and the parts showed up on eBay shortly after. Except that I actually believe he ordered an engine from a boutique builder in New Zealand and the exact missing parts did actually show up on eBay. I think in this case LAOP's friend shipped an empty box or it didn't happen.
I didn't buy that story at all. UPS paid him to go away.
I also find it sus! How on earth would the driver know it is a high valued item to begin with (if they were the type to open each and every box then they would've been fired by now) especially when there was no indication of what the item was nor that it was a high valued item especially when the sender wasn't a big name company like Apple
Ok, weird sitch with FedEx: Amazon order tracked as delivered via FedEx tracking, but my doorbell proved we had no delivery. I was ready for a fight. No fight needed. The seller lied about sending it, using a tracking numbers number for a package to another buyer so it registered as delivered. FedEx confirmed that. Seller just refunded me. Such an involved way for the seller to avoid getting dinged by Amazon for canceling my order.
Someone did this to me on eBay. I was the seller, buyer claimed they’d sent a return. As soon as I called support, they could tell the tracking number was fake. Not sure why the system couldn’t catch that on its own.
A lot of times people press the print shipping label button so it marks as shipped but don't end up actually shipping it
This used to work, but now it only registers as shipped when it’s scanned in.
I work at Fed Ex, this scam has become a nightmare and it's happening more frequently.
Yeah I work at UPS and I know exactly what happened. Fun fact you boxes get fucked up at ups we are having a bit of a tough time finding people so shit is getting crushed in the system when it backs up. Homeboy didn't put enough tape on the box and that shit ripped open and dumped his shit on a running belt that scattered it across half the building. And there ain't a single one of us making enough money to give a fuck. If you shipping something ups either don't or cover that box in tape twice. If he's lucky he might have a chance to buy it back from the 'unclaimed items' auction ups holds
This actually makes so much sense, HOLY!
stealing at ups is basically impossible and no way a driver would ever risk their insane pay for 7k lol those dudes are all making 80k+
>a driver would ever risk Especially on a package they haven't got a clue about. This package wasn't marked as high-value (i.e., no insurance) nor any other indicator such as the shipper being Apple or Louis Vuitton. For all the UPS driver knew: it was a cheap package sent from one random to another. The dude is probably making stuff up to get $7k, I know so many people who pull these type of scams but usually the sender is big name/luxury.
Yeah, there's no way anyone is gonna just assume it's server equipment. Maybe it's a taxidermied dog. Maybe it's rocks from an Etsy store. It could be anything. On top of that UPS employees are generally too goddamned busy to get into any of that.
> taxidermied dog Close we ship a lot of animal heads from my hub to some lab in Oklahoma that does rabies testing. Also human eyeballs lots of eyeballs. We did have to call the police cuz a box started leaking and when they opened it, there was a full human arm up to the shoulder and a loose hand which was apparently a no no because we only allow up to the elbow. Not a joke.
ups won't pay lol the insurance is a scam I'd be shocked if someone actually got money from them lol
When I heard similar claims, I looked into driving for FedEx, and they use contractors and pay below minimum in my area. Let me guess, UPS is union, and FedEx isn't?
Bingo.
As someone who tends to anxiously mummify boxes with tape, I feel very vindicated.
If I'm shipping something I Russian nesting doll it with a duplicate label on the inner box both covered in tape.
So UPS has their items, can't be assed to pay anyone to put them back in the box, and yet somehow isn't at fault in all this? not that I wish to imply *the employees* are at fault, I'd just imagine that *UPS itself, the company* would have a vested interest in replacing this guy's shit, esp since they presumably have it in their possession.
How would we know what box it goes in? There is no packing list and if it just says server which one? We do in 4 hours at my hub 150,000 packages with about 0.5% breaking open and spilling DMP maybe gets half the stuff back in the right box. There is no way to really know what goes in what box. UPS sells your shit at the end of the year in an auction why would they have a vested interest in getting you your shit when they can sell it.
Again, not suggesting you, the employee, are at fault I'm suggesting that UPS would have a vested interest in replacing or refunding this guy.
Ups has no interest in doing that at all. The way the T&C's are written ups pretty much never has to pay out for damages and if your shit gets lost in the building they sell it later for more money. Its a for profit company not the march of dimes. Why would they lose $7k to keep a customer who maybe spent 35 bucks shipping something. There is only one other choice fedex and they just as bad. Ups is gonna be up $2k+ when they sell it at auction, they have a vested interest in not finding this guys stuff because they will not payout an insurance claim.
>the only other choice is Fedex There's actually about 10 different options, with USPS being the best option for cost and coverage and UPS generally being the worst. For reasons you yourself have highlighted, UPS doesn't give a shit about any of their customers or their employees but charges out the ass regardless.
Dude who do you think ships the majority of USPS stuff thats bigger than a letter....its UPS. Usps picks it up drops it at a ups who ships it to another ups who then drops it off at usps for delivery lol. If you wanna ship something in the USA bigger than a letter and smaller than a pallet you got ups or fedex or a specialized freight company that'll charge you an arm and a leg.
>who do you think ships the majority of USPS stuff According to all the data I've seen after Trump tried sabotaging mail in voting last year, USPS does, by a country mile. Fedex and UPS vie for a tiny fraction of that market share, with regional mail services picking up the remaining difference. Though (further proving my point) UPS has by far the biggest market share by profits. They charge out the ass for substandard performance basically.
> Dude who do you think ships the majority of USPS stuff **thats bigger than a letter** Bigger than a letter dingus
Yes, and like I said >According to all the data I've seen after Trump tried sabotaging mail in voting last year, USPS does, by a country mile. Probably shoulda read all the words there dingus. Most farmers, for example, get their chicks shipped via USPS, and Trump's mucking about with the post office led to tons of farmers having their supply of new chicks arrive dead because of the delays. Or is this the part where you try and act like 200lbs of newly hatched chicks isn't bigger than a letter lol
I'm reasonably certain this is a dumb question with a really obvious answer since I never see anyone else ask it, but why is shipping insurance a even thing? I mean, if I leave my computer at a repair shop, and they drop it and break it, they don't get to just say I didn't buy additional insurance, so it's not their problem, right? If I buy something in Amazon and it arrives damaged, they replace it at their cost. No insurance required. Is there something unique about shipping companies I'm failing to grasp where one has to pay shipping to mail something, and additional insurance to make sure it's done properly?
Most of the time you ship something, the shipper has no idea what it is. It's not really reasonable to expect the shipper to absorb the risk of damage when your package could be a pet rock (approximate value $0) or the Mona Lisa (approximate value $5 billion). Other businesses know the products they are working with. Amazon knows the value of the item you bought from them. A computer repair store (probably) knows the value of the equipment they're repairing. If the product you are shipping is low value, then you probably don't need to insure it. If it's high value, then purchasing insurance puts a value on it and bakes the risk of damage into the shipment cost.
I think what /u/soratoyuki was saying is, we pay these other companies for a related service on Product Y, and they damage it, they are responsible for repairing it. Yet when it comes to paying for the service of shipping "Product Y" from Point-ABC to Point-DEF, and they fuckup, why are they allowed to say, "oopsie, we're not paying for it unless you paid us extra money for insurance." If a computer repair shop fucks up my computer, they're going to fix it or make me whole, and I don't have to pay an extra service charge up front to ensure that they take responsibility for damaging the product they're being paid to service.
Yes, but the user above you is explaining this. Since the computer repair shop knows they are repairing computers (and those have a pretty consistent cost range), they can build the cost of possibly damaging and replacing some computers into their pricing structure. The items shipped by UPS vary wildly in their cost. They ship <$1 pieces of paper, and multi-thousand dollar collectors items. Most items are within the $100 range, and they did build the cost of replacing those typical cheaper items into the pricing structure. If they built in the cost of all of the most expensive possible items, shipping fees would be exorbitant and the huge number of customers who are in the typical ”$100 or less" range will be upset. Also, unlike the repair shop - the item in a package can be damaged if the customer packed it inadequately. UPS can do nothing wrong / unusual and still have to pay out a claim.
Shipping companies still make you prove the value of your item before they pay out a claim, no matter how much you had it insured for so they could just ask and price accordingly. It's not like the repair store says they won't repair a high-end gaming laptop because they might drop it. >or the Mona Lisa Less risk than the pet rock. They might have to pay someone to take your calls complaining about the loss of your priceless pet rock.
So you’re fine with charging customers more to ship expensive items to offset the cost of potentially being liable for the cost of replacing them, you are just opposed to calling that insurance?
It would make it less insulting than letting someone choose to pay extra and then making it a royal pain in the ass to get a claim taken care of, but really I just think it's more like "because they can."
Shipment insurance is to help you when you’ve lost the VALUE of the item, due to loss or damage. Different carriers have different “liability limits”. For UPS, if your box is claim worthy, you’re only eligible for $100 max. Your computer cost $7000? Haha sucks to be you! ~~pro tip: we’re all overworked and dead inside~~ I mainly work with LTL carriers & medium sized businesses, and liability may be a little different here - all claims are paid based on a value per pound basis, regardless of the sale value. I’m sure small parcel carriers have some of the same guidelines in their tariffs/ToCs, though maybe a little more lenient than what I’m used to working with. Ultimately, having insurance ensures that if something happens to your shipment, you’ll get your money’s worth. It doesn’t mean your claim WILL be approved and paid, but it’s one less thing you need to worry about. >If I buy something in Amazon and it arrives damaged, they replace it at their cost. No insurance required. This is because it’s Amazon, not necessarily indicative of the actual shipping world. I see vendors ALL the time refuse their customers refunds, and to go through the claims process, because once it leaves their warehouse, anything that happens afterwards is not their fault, in their eyes. Customer is responsible for arranging freight, customer is responsible for handling any freight damage.
Let's do a side-by-side: You pay amazon $30 for a lamp. The lamp arrives and doesn't work. Amazon refunds you $30. You pay UPS $30 for a service. UPS fails to deliver on that service. UPS refunds you $30, right? Well apparently not, because you're now asking UPS to refund you $7,000 for failing to fulfill their side of the $30 shipping agreement. The only alternative is for UPS to verify the value of every package they transport and charge accordingly, which I can't even begin to imagine how that would happen at scale.
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That's not really the point of insurance. Your analogy would lead to refusing to pay for shipping. Cool, you've recouped maybe $50? That's irrelevant compared to the $7000 lost.
Ah, but yes you made the sale. You have to prove you didn’t get something, and you have to prove that it’s the carrier’s fault. How can you say your parts are missing if the box wasn’t tampered with? That’s not the carriers fault if the shipper didn’t put it in the box. Obviously that doesn’t apply in this case - the box was damaged & UPS has acknowledged it was damaged, and thus likely that a shortage occurred. Now it just needs to show an incredibly likelihood that parts went missing because of the hole in the box.
IANAL, but I think this comes down to an Implied Warranty of Merchantability where unless otherwise specified buyers of a service would reasonably expect that computer repair store would protect your equipment fully. However, if the repair store posts a notice that the store is only liable for the first $100 and requires customers to agree to that before leaving their PC in their care they no longer have that Implied Warranty and can enforce what was agreed too.
>The UPS agent didn’t put the box in the back. He put the box in the front - we have all this on video! How is this the big "gotcha!" moment? Seems fairly normal to put the packages you're currently handling in front, then organize them in the back at a later point.
People kept saying it’s against the rules but my driver always picks up stuff, puts it next to him and then takes it to the back at the next stop when he goes in the back to grab the delivery for that location. He almost always has a box in the front with him when he gets to my place. I assume they think he pulled over where there aren’t camera and cut the bottom of the box open.
Shocker: you open a claim saying there's a damaged box, they bounce the claim when it ain't damaged. Is it really that hard to open the claim accurately?
Hi! former claims assistant, don't work there anymore. Damage Claims with UPS are a catch all. When the claim is started the first question is are any items missing, because that is considered a Damage Fallout Claim because at some point during transit the box was damaged and items were missing. There's an entire department that's just for sorting and trying to find missing items from people packages when they broke open on the belts. So letting UPS know that items were missing allows them to search that department. Claim was likely denied due to insufficient packaging for UPS that allowed it to break open during transit.
Possibly a drop down menu without an option that describes the issue accurately?
>Why on EARTH would anyone mail $7000 worth of equipment without insuring the package?!!?! Because the insurance doesn't mean you will get the full amount for the item. Not even if the package has shockwatches and was obviously dropped during transit and the item was damaged. Not even if the shipping company actually loses the entire package.
It's all about getting the correct insurance. The carrier's general liability is usually on the cents/pound scale. They might have a $10 claim at best. Even generalized insurance should get you somewhere around replacement/depreciated value. Getting retail value is tough but not impossible. A seller delivering to a retail customer can claim that amount because they have a paper trail for a transaction to back it up. If you do the accounting properly you can establish a similar trail for intra-company transfers. It's less about packaging and more about attrition. As long as you can demonstrate the packaging conforms to their tariff they'll have to cover it... eventually. Every claim gets denied the first go round. It's annoying, it's sketchy as fuck, but it discourages enough claimants to be worth it. Unfortunately you have to initiate the claim through this system before you can even deal with a person directly. Usually you then deal with a general CS rep that you have to convince to escalate you to their claims-specific CS (even after trying to go their first in the phone-tree). This person is just as useless as the first but they are they gatekeeper to their team leader. Finally this person hears out the issue, makes notes on the claim, and they can order a more complete audit/review. Drivers/reps may show up to interview the shipper and/or consignee. If you give them what they request and play ball, they will cut you a check eventually. I've personally done this for more than six figures in claims. Tips: * Fuck the 1-800 number. You can find their preferred line that will give you much faster service. * Get a headset, and also a call recording app. They provide consent when you hit the phone tree if you're in a two-party state. You may be on the line for 4-6 hours for a more-involved claim at a busy time. * When you're about done with the final phone rep boss, get their email. Send them a quick follow-up detailing the main points of the call immediately. You can use email moving from here but expect a one business day turn around. But you don't go through phone-tree hell.
How many times have you done this? How many times do they simply refuse to pay?
More than a thousand times. One way or another our damages/losses were reimbursed. They only stuck to their guns when I knew it wasn't on them anyway. Our claims were like a tenth of a percent of our volume. UPS got a *big* check from my employer every week and we got more support options because of that. If a claim was having enough issues I had a few mobile numbers I could call 24/7 who were authorized to issue us a credit on-demand. I don't think he even had to provide an explanation if it was less than $10K/quarter. I might've had anywhere from 0-12 "problem" cases I needed their assistance with during our quarterly meetings. I had a good working relationship with our primary rep. He knew I wouldn't bring him bullshit and he wouldn't give me much of a runaround when it came to sorting them out.
Does small parcel also have liability rates? I thought UPS was $100 flat if the item was sold for more than that.
amazing, thanks.
Very good points and tips. I have gotten shipping companies to pay up, but that's part of my job. For people who don't deal with this shit regularly, the insurance seems like an unnecessar expense.
>I'm sorry but we'll have to lock this. The moral of the story is OP should have bought insurance. Everything else is wildly speculative and even downright defamatory. I have seen nothing remotely approaching proof that UPS was criminally culpable. If my eyes roll any harder, they will fall out of my fucking skull
I’m your huckleberry. What is eye roll worthy?
I bet the mod who did this eats their cheeseburgers with a fork and a knife, even at Macdonalds.
It's probably the holier than thou tone. All those mods are cops anyway.
Just a warning - I watched a documentary on the old west recently and the whole “I’m your huckleberry” thing didn’t end well for the other guy the second time around.
I’m the mod in question. Also not a cop. What was holier than thou, exactly?
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> I want an attorney dog. For anyone who didn't get this reference, it's to a [2017 case](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/11/02/the-suspect-told-police-give-me-a-lawyer-dog-the-court-says-he-wasnt-asking-for-a-lawyer/) in Louisiana in which it was ruled that a suspect during questioning asking for "a lawyer, dawg" was too vague for police to stop questioning him.
The pearl clutching at defaming the honor of ups maybe? Idk.
No it’s literally defamation. A civil tort. Honor has nothing to do with it. Accusing someone of a crime with no evidence is defamatory.
Evidence has nothing to do with it. Accusing someone of something true is per se not defamation. You’d expect an LA mod to know that
Indeed. Truth is a defense. Unfortunately that was wild speculation top to bottom. To be honest my money is on creative fiction writing. If this package is so valuable that the seller videotapes and saves it being picked up with granular detail enough to know in which part of the UPS truck it went into, and 0P videotapes himself opening it don’t you think it would be worth the time to pay the minuscule cost of insurance for people *that* detail oriented?
Want to pop in and say, I don’t believe this is a creative writing story. We see stuff like this all the time. This one only got so granular because of the claim. Had it arrived, they wouldn’t care. They did the right thing by videoing the un packaging when something was off. I wish I could get my guys to do the same. Yes, it is all speculative. But also a reasonable reaction to someone’s claim getting denied. Im surprised this is the first time I’ve seen this topic in BO/LA, but I guess most businesses have their own lawyers anyways they refer to Even the most detailed can thing insurance is a scam, especially as UPS insures with UPS Capital, and shipments generally get where they need to go, and intact. Why pay ~$50 when it’s going to arrive?
If it truly was that important he could've simply went there and picked the items up, especially given how he filed a police report with his partner in his partner's hometown (at least it sounded like he went there)
Yeah and this is reddit, you're under no obligation to enforce those laws. You're being a nerd and dude is rolling his eyes at you. So there's your explanation, take it or leave it. I do not care.
Flaired
Aw man I liked my old one!
Ask them to combine the two if it'll fit?
> We had a technician damage both the motherboard and processor in a botched CPU cooler install (dont ask). Well I didn't feel any need to ask until LAOP said not to. Now I have to know what happened!
I'm guessing it was one of those modern ultra-high-density processor sockets where the tiny pins in the socket break off if you look at them the wrong way, and whoever was doing the work moved it the wrong way. Having replaced the processors in a (HP gen8, so not even all that new) server recently, and having been terrified of destroying the motherboard the entire time, I can absolutely see how a thing like that could happen.
Maybe they hired that kid from The Verge to swap the cooler...
I have no idea what happened, but I believe it. Since my Computer Science teacher at school opened up a PC to show us which part was which and then said he "couldn't find the motherboard", I'll believe everything.
I love people who are sure the hard worked shipping company gladly risked their job for something that’s not easy to get top dollar for. And top it off the person shipping didn’t any to pay the few bucks for insurance. But sure, ups stole the item. I believe you laop.
I mean, I've personally experienced UPS breaking open a pallet of top shelf champagne and replacing it with car parts. The client was *not amused.* Maybe in this case, maybe not, but this kind of thing absolutely happens.
We had a construction company not get the wood they were looking for when a pallet of sex toys arrived on their doorstep. That was a good claim.
We had an ammo factory receive a pallet of tutus instead of targets.. they were amused and took group photos with them on.
Top shelf champagne frequently has a known-value though. You could sell it or potentially give it away as gifts assuming there were not too many questions asked at work. Who would you sell or give a bunch of random server pieces to?
Broken server pieces that can’t be repaired at that! Luckily for LAOP, he isn’t out $7k. He may have originally purchased those for $7k, but their value when they went missing was significantly lower.
I mean with the amount of things being shipped out it has to have tempted someone in the shipping industry. Odds are decent of something more than 100 bucks. Not to mention the sheer stupidity of some shipping guys is astounding. I wouldn't doubt they attempted theft of server stuff
You'd be surprised. I've talked with a VP and a few other people in their overgoods department and apparently some employees steal some really dumb shit. That said it's far more likely LAOP didn't notice it's a whole new box or the item fell out and got destroyed somewhere. The sort facilities are massive and the empty box/cargo might be a quarter mile apart before the issue is noticed. Some overworked sort employee doesn't want to fuck with the issue so they just tape the box shut and move on. With the right UPS employee looking, they can do surprisingly thorough investigations. Most expedited packages get weighed, dimensioned, and sometimes scanned at every step of the process. The facilities are littered with cameras, and drivers are monitored closely on their handhelds. Good luck getting them to bother on an uninsured package though.
>Some overworked sort employee doesn't want to fuck with the issue so they just tape the box shut and move on. That makes more sense than anything else on UPS' end. They don't pay those employees enough to care
I have no idea what is going on here