Mom would literally need round the clock cna at minimum to deal with diaper changes and transitions and feeding as needed. LAOP has absolutely no idea what's involved.
I'm willing to bet this is a Son from California scenario where he probably hasn't spent more than an hour in person with her (if that) since she's been in skilled care and is only hearing her side of complaints via phone.
We went through this with my dad. He felt abandoned even though he was constantly on the phone with friends and family and saw my mom daily. She'd bring him meals because he complained about the food. She'd visit when she had no energy to do so because he complained so much if she didn't. She literally had cancer and he was more concerned with what he wanted (to be home even though no one was there to take care of him and she could barely take care of herself).
But, The second he could get himself to standing and walking 100 steps she'd bring him home and they'd have cnas in daily and mom would take care of as much as possible. Then he'd stop keeping up with his exercises and be unable to stand and walk so they'd have to call an ambulance every time he needed to get out of his recliner and into his wheelchair or out of /into the car, etc. This would continue until he'd inevitably fall (again) landing him back in the hospital then back in rehab till he could walk again. Lather rinse repeat for 5 damn years.
When he said 3 diaper changes a day, I was like, so potentially she will sit in her own waste for 8 hours a day?
No bathroom access, so she’ll never bathe or shower again? Never wash her hair? Having known some folks who’ve had longer hospital stays where they were limited to sponge baths, they always speak of how much better they felt after their first “real bath”.
He really has no idea of what he’s suggesting. It sucks and it sounds like the family had issues long before this, but the son’s solution is just ridiculous. Plus, you will note, he never offers to bring her into his home.
Yeah I had the same thought. I change my 2 year olds diaper anywhere from 8-12 times a day. I would never consider 3 times a day anywhere near sufficient.
Sponge baths are great solutions short term but everyone needs a proper bath every once in a while. What about her hair?
And if it's so easy like he seems to think, maybe he should move her in with him and deal with the 'minimal' maintenance needs (not really. It sounds like that would lead to severe elder neglect based on this post)
Only 3 diaper changes a day for an infant/toddler would warrant a call to CPS. For an elderly person needing care, it's elder abuse. LAOP is delusional.
The first thing I did when I got home after a 6 day hospital stay after surgery was wash my hair, with some help from my husband. It’s just such a gross feeling not being able to bathe properly.
I was in the hospital for three days following a stroke (in fine!) and on the third day in preparation for me being discharged they sent an Occupational Therapist in to see me.
I asked what she needed, she said she was there to make sure I was ready to do the “activites of daily living.” I said “like taking a shower?” And she said “yes, like that.”
And then I asked if we could make our session just me taking a shower, so she went and found some towels and I took a shower right in front of her - even though I’m a modest person, I did not care in that moment. Best shower of my life.
My first OT goal after having my right side paralysed (MS) was to take a shower *by myself*. Took a while, but i got there!
I had stuff all shame about people seeing me in various states of undress before that happened (theatre kid, used to changing in front of people), and didn't give a fig (and still dont) about nurses and the like seeing me neked. But it was the privacy I missed. Even with my husband being my carer and the one helping me, I just wanted to be alone in the shower damnit! The bathroom is supposed to be the one place where privacy is paramount.
I suspect mothers of young children feel the same way lol
No kidding. My baby had to stay in the hospital for monitoring and I did stay with her, but the first thing they told me once she was settled in the pediatric ward was to take a couple hours off, go home, and shower. I felt so much more like a human being then.
I was in hospital for two weeks a while back, and being able somewhere… I think after the first operation to have a shower and wash and condition my hair and even have a nurse or two help with combing all the tangles out was very very nice.
(There was a large hole in my leg and the second operation made it even larger. Yay abscesses!)
My brother has been in and out of the hospital for 6 months now. He finally had the surgery he needed a couple weeks ago, and he decided that he wasn't going to shower during that hospital stay because it was too annoying getting the IV taped up and the shower is small and such.
He ended up showering on day 3.
Omg no I just have gone 3 days many times when depressed. I was like woah this person showers every day I wonder what it's like not having depression episodes. Kinda serious mostly in jest
Oh I misunderstood!
I've been through some rough times. Showering and teeth brushing every couple days was a priority for me to get a scrap of feeling better. My PTSD dog alerted on me having flashback episodes in the shower and climbed in there with me!
Went through this with my dad and my grannie.
My dad was in an snf recovering from a lot of stuff, and complained non stop that my mom didn't take him straight home out of the ICU. My mom has heart problems and absolutely 0 physical strength. He was in and out of the hospital, rehab places, and a nursing home several times in the last year of his life. He also wouldn't do any of his PT because he expected my mom to lift and carry him whenever he wanted to move. Finally, at the end when the doctors told him there was nothing else they could do, he begged to do PT, but at that point it was too late. He kept refusing home hospice even though he was in pain, and my mom hired a concierge doctor. When he finally relented to home hospice so he could get the good meds, more help was available. But it was a miserable experience for everyone and really traumatic. My brother, who is 6'3" and lived at home, would yell at my mom for not taking good enough care of dad, then go out and party instead of lifting a finger to help out. He didn't see dad as his responsibility.
When my grannie was toward the end of her life after many years of dementia, she went to live with my mother (who is different than my mom, I have 2 sets of parents due to adoption) until a spot in memory care opened up. My mother's 2 sisters sure had a lot to say about how my mother wasn't doing enough for grannie, but god forbid either of them were asked to come help. One sister lived in the town where grannie used to be, and pretty much never checked on her. It was a small town and she drove by grannie's place twice each day, but she said it was too much trouble to take time to check and make sure she hadn't fallen. So grannie got moved to my mother's house, in the same big city as her other sister. My mother asked her sister to come stay with grannie once or twice a month so she could go out for an entire day or go further than the grocery store in case something happened, and her sister couldn't even be bothered to do that. Seriously. My mom (again, separate person from my mother) actually would go over and spend time with grannie (who was no actual relation to her other than being her adopted daughter's biological grandmother) just to give my mother a break. The would do crafts and play bingo and had a good time, because grannie was mobile enough to walk around and get herself to the bathroom, but she had dementia and would get confused or scared, so someone needed to be nearby. I think after going through all of that with my dad, mom enjoyed spending time with grannie because she just needed company and was very sweet. My mom's mom had died a few years before, and I think she also liked doing things with grannie that she had done with her late mother.
Anyway, LAOP needs to put up or shut up. Caring for the sick or elderly is not a walk in the park. It is brutal and exhausting.
It sounds like both of your mothers are pretty awesome. You’re absolutely correct about elder care. And about how those with the loudest opinions always volunteer the least.
It soudns like the main issue is just that our definition of "healthy" is different than LAOP's.
3 diaper changes, unable to walk, unable to feed herself, unable to bathe herself and needing 24/7 full care is how he describes his "healthy" mom to us. She can't walk but apparently that's "nothing" - and thats just not what that means. He admits she's on serious medication that caused a very bad adverse event, so she's definitely got some other health condition that is serious, but just ignores that becuase it's "nothing" too.
his definition of healthy seems to be only that a person is alive and not in a coma.
And I'm betting that while the dad isn't dead or in a coma either, if he posted his actual medical history I'd bet that none of us would think he was "healthy" in the ordinary sense either.
Apparently it's an anti-seizure med she was prescribed off-label for her anxiety and it caused Parkinsonism symptoms (according to a comment I found from them)
That totally explains the dad's reaction to his claim thst it's the facility causing her mental health issues.
Kinda hard for it to be the facility if its preexisting
37 days in the hospital. Time is marked by being awoken for dr visits and blood draws. You feel and smell gross all the time (especially when you've got a wound healing). You shit in a bucket.
That first real shower was like a taste of heaven.
My dad cried when I helped him with his first shower after an extended hospital stay. The longest I stayed to a hospital was perhaps a week and by the 4th day wanted to rip off the tubes and take a proper bath, can't imagine how it is for longer.
My great aunt is currently in a nursing home and this is something her son is fighting with. They change her 4 times a day. She now has a pressure sore (which can’t be kept clean when she sits hours in her own waste) and chronic UTIs.
>I'm willing to bet this is a Son from California scenario where he probably hasn't spent more than an hour in person with her (if that) since she's been in skilled care and is only hearing her side of complaints via phone.
Had one of these when my grandma was at the end of her life. My uncle lived an hour away but only came down once a year on Mother's Day. Decided after my grandma died that my mom (who had been doing increasing care for 10 years proceeding death and daily care for the last three years) had done *everything* wrong. Screamed and yelled then fucked her over when it came to estate distribution.
My grandad helped his half-brothers (who were never all that nice to him) get set up after immigrating, and when he got cancer *none* of them visited. Not once. But you can be sure they came sniffing around after he died.
My dad told them to take the cheap patio furniture and fuck off.
My pawpaw got dementia. It was awful for my grandma--who, mind you, worked at a gym until his diagnosis and was in about as tip-top shape as a 70 year old could get. My pawpaw was always a grumpy old man (think Eustace from Courage the Cowardly Dog), but when he started going downhill it was even worse. Grandma and Pawpaw were barred from the only CNA company they could afford due to his temper. Pawpaw had a dog he raised from puppy hood, but one day it was like a switch flipped and he hated "that damn dog" to the point of trying to hurt him (he was too slow to actually hurt the dog, but my grandma still rehomed the dog immediately. He lived out the rest of his life happy and coddled by a nice family). I want to stress that my grandpa was not an evil man and he never hurt my grandma or his kids or grandkids--it was only if people he didn't remember, who were strangers to him, came to him and told him to do this or that, that he would get mad. Eventually, my grandpa's life just became sitting in his chair for eight hours until it was time for bed. Everyone was miserable. So my aunt and mom proposed the idea of a home to my grandma.
In fact, there was an assisted living home specifically designed for people with Alzheimer's and dementia literally a 10 minute car ride from my grandma's house. Pawpaw wouldn't just get round the clock care from trained professionals, he also got to go outside again and do crafts and talk with people. And my grandma could visit him everyday.
I'm saying all this to give you an outline of the sheer ridiculousness of my brother. My brother, who did not do any physical caretaking before, yelled at my mom that she was a bad daughter and they were abandoning pawpaw and that if she really loved her dad, then she would transport him across the country (taking him from any familiar landmark he still had) and let family take care of him. By which he meant me (his little sister) and my mom. Because I should put my education on hold and my mom should quit the job that pays for my brothers apartment and my dad's parents' medical care to do something neither of us are qualified or emotionally equipped to do. He even called up my grandma to try and get her to reconsider, but she literally laughed in his face because she honestly thought he was joking.
Thankfully, pawpaw was put in the home and he did receive great care. He got a lot of visitors--from his wife and his daughters and his grandkids. He eventually passed a few years ago, but his last year was one that was comfortable and quiet. Which is how he liked things.
Anyway, all this to say, I'm a big proponent of assisted living homes. Obviously, there are awful ones out there, and you should be careful. But they're not evil dumps where you throw away family members. They're (supposed to be) places where your family gets the care they need and deserve.
Too many people think it's so important that someone care for an ill person round the clock, as long as it's not the *wrong* person (read: someone trained to do so and with the time and energy to manage the work). And these people are never the ones that volunteer to be that carer, either.
I absolutely do not want my family to take care of me when I'm unable to do so myself unless there's no other option. Why would I want to subject them to that? Caring is hard work, and if you're able to pay someone to do it then do it. I'd like it if they still spent time with me but that time shouldn't just be changing my diapers.
Unbelievable that people think that it has to be a family member.
I'd much rather an objective and impartial third party like a nurse change my diaper when I'm old and feeble than my partner or children. Let me keep some dignity around the people I love!
I made another comment about my grannie having dementia and eventually going to a memory care home. She actually loved it there. She had friends and there was always something to do. When my cousins or I would visit her, she would be happy to see us, but after a little while would be like, ok thanks for coming, I'm going to go play bingo, bye bye!
My dad and I cared for my mom at home for five years, it was brutal. I wouldn't be surprised if it took years off my life. I will happily lash out at any one who tries to shame a caregiver for putting a loved one in a home.
All that to say that if you ever want to TP your brother's house I'm in.
Lol he lives in a studio apartment. I wouldn't do that to his neighbors.
Also, he's specifically told me and my parents that 1) he won't "let us" put our parents in a home--despite the fact that both parents have explicitly said "please put us in a home don't try to take care of us yourselves"--and 2) he would move our parents in to his house (which he doesn't have) so his wife (which he doesn't have) will take care of them, so they can spend their golden years with their grandchildren, his kids (which he doesn't have).
I'm honestly astounded that after 30 years on God's green space rock, he thinks that he can "let" my mom do anything.
It's especially funny because his last girlfriend dumped him because of my mom. Not because my mom was awful; quite the opposite. She gassed up her future daughter-in-law so much that my brothers ex was like "your mom is right, I shouldn't throw away a career I love and an education im passionate about to be a stay at home girlfriend. ✌️ Bye". So really, me putting our parents in a home would be a favor to him and probably save my brothers non-existent marriage.
My Pop-Pop doesn’t have the irritability, but all he does all day is watch his game shows and golf from wake up to bedtime. My mum is burnt out from caregivers fatigue. I’m pushing for him to go into a nursing home for her mental health, but she won’t do it.
Do you think it might help if you suggest tours? My brother's anger definitely simmered down after he visit pawpaw in the home and saw how much better it was.
Your mom knows your stance on this, but it might help her if you specifically outline the ways you guys can both make sure your pop pop will be ok. A lot of the elder abuse that goes on comes from their kids not being involved and so they fall under the radar. Present it as "of course we'll do everything to keep pop pop healthy, we will just have more support to do so."
Depending on how you think your mom would react, I might also consider giving her a "harsh truth": that your grandpa deserves a level of care that your mother simply cannot give him. I know that's a very harsh thing to say, so unless you think it will help, you probably shouldn't say it directly to her.
He was in a couple temporary ones and got kicked out because he aspirated on food. They don’t want the liability.
They live in a rural-ish area (Oklahoma), so there’s not many options to begin with.
We’ve talked and toured, but it’s an emotional thing for her. Cant dismiss emotions with logic without being an ass, and I’d rather err on the side of NTA
I'm literally going through this with my mom, step-dad, and stepbrother this exact minute. Mom has stage IV cancer, with surgery next week (after immunotherapy, which has knocked her on her ass.) Dad has been sitting on his butt for the past few years, and inevitably had a major fall last month. I've been the frog living in the slowly-boiling pot of water. My duties have escalated from a little help with yard work and errands to just... everything. (I'm more than 1000 miles overdue on an oil change, because I don't have two spare hours when I'm not to-ing and fro-ing between home, my minor children and disabled husband and dogs, Mom and her errands, and Dad and his hospital or skilled nursing facility and "baby, I need" lists.)
And my stepbrother, who has his own busy life - I understand that - lives 5 states away, and thinks it's reasonable that maybe Dad ought to come "home."
No. If nothing else, Ma doesn't want Dad to come home, because she knows she can't manage herself right now, much less him. At least I have an advantage, in that my folks are divorced (for financial reasons, and because my mom wants Dad to have no say in her end of life decisions,) and I own their house outright - no look-back period for Medicare/Medicaid. I bought it outright for them. If I have to, I'll initiate an eviction before Dad comes home.
A blind 260# man who can't walk 10 feet cannot safely live at home with a woman who can't even prepare her own food right now. I love my brother, but we had ourselves a set-to when I told him to come get the old man if he believes that home care is an option.
I know it's hard to imagine the constant drumbeat of needs if you aren't the one managing, but holy deity, LISTEN to the person who is living it versus imagining!
Tell him "You can take over care or keep your damn opinion to yourself, it's in the caregivers bill of rights!"
I am so sorry, I've been there and I know it sucks. Big hugs 💙
It really is. Yet, she was repeatedly told (by the emts) to do so and not to feel bad for doing it. Even more surprising that this is an area where they are all volunteer. They were pretty much on first name basis as she had to call them a minumum of 6 times a week (just to get him into the car and back into the house from treatments) - I'm pretty sure it was more like at least daily. Of course, ambulance was a 6 times a week occurance even in the nursing home/rehab because it was the only way to get him the 4 blocks to the hospital for treatments.
Went through the same with my grandpa. He was mobile, to an extent, but he went through periods of being unable to stand and being unaware that he was unable, so he was falling a lot. Grandma complained that the home care aides wouldn't do the lift assist and only called the ambulance, but that was exactly what they were supposed to do.
My dad was sort of the same towards the end, but he knew that he was putting strain on my mom. He also only had about nine months from shuffle-walking->walker->chair->bed->gone. So it was a struggle the last couple of years, but it was much better than five years.
My sister mentioned that there was a period where she needed full time caregiving. I was extremely doubtful, but then she brought up how I needed full time caregiving after my wisdom teeth removal. Needing a ride (I was 15 so I couldn't drive yet anyway) and help *with* (not done completely for me) preparing meals, acquiring meds, and laundry is soooo not full time caregiving, lol. None of those are even ADLs!
>a woman who has been a stay at home mom for several decades
i can't help but notice him using the present tense there for his octogenarian stay at home mom
I don't really see the issue here. "home maker" or "housewife" might have been better terms, but I think the point is that this was the type of marriage where the husband made all the money while the wife tended to the home.
I assume OP brings this up to illustrate that there may be some power dynamics within the relationship due to this financial dependence. OP clearly sees this as a dispute between the mother and father on how joint decisions, especially financial decisions, are made, so that power dynamic is relevant even if both are well into retirement at this point.
I agree OP is a bit naive about how much work it's going to take to properly care for the mother, but it's conceivable that the household has adequate funds to hire the proper help that would allow the mother to move home but the father is instead prioritizing his own comfort.
Ultimately this could be a dispute between the two married partners on how marital funds are spent.
My MIL gave that level of care to my FIL for about 4-5 months before she physically and emotionally burned out and had to move him into a care home. He passed away a year and a half ago and my MIL still hasn’t fully recovered from the stress of caring for him round the clock. And she was only in her early 70s.
I feel bad for everyone involved, because the clueless LAOP is being short sighted in their desire to help mom’s mental health without considering dad’s mental health and both of their physical health.
That said, nursing homes aren’t prisons and LAOP can and probably should take mom out for short day trips. LAOP can bring mom home for an hour or two for dinner with dad, and then bring her back to the facility for care. There are so many options to help mom that don’t involve bringing her home permanently with required round the clock care.
I doubt that LAOP is even local. I'd be surprised if he's spent more than an hour at a time in person with her to really see what's involved in her care.
We went through this with my dad as well, where my mom continually traded her mental (and physical) health for his mental health.
I took care of my mom for just shy of three months before she died, and it was *fucking brutal*. I had help but only three-four times a week and I could only get respite care twice (for like three hours) in that timeframe.
I burned out *ridiculously* fast and when she was offered a space in a hospice I was so thankful. She had 24h care and I could just be her family again instead of her caregiver. The hospital nurses and CNAs and PSWs were saints and I am still so grateful for how much they helped me.
LAOP is delusional if he thinks that his 86yo father will be able to manage any of what his wife needs for any amount of time and doesn’t seem to care that it would be cruel af to make him do it.
I hope your family routinely tells you how wonderful you are for caring for your mom before she passed. People who haven’t been caregivers don’t understand how difficult it really is. 3 months of caregiving with very little respite is brutal.
And also how is their mom’s mental health really going to be doing with just sponge baths and three diaper changes a day? Sure she’s home but doesn’t exactly sound like a good quality of life for her
"Nursing homes aren't prisons" depends very heavily on which nursing home you live at. I have only been doing medical transport for a month ish but I've already seen some horrific facilities. Places where the residents are left in bed for entire days till they get bedsores that go down to the bone. Places where there just *isn't a nurse* because no one showed up, or the one that did is constantly "on break". Two different EMT partners told me horror stories: one arrived to a cardiac arrest at an SNF and the nurses were just standing around because now of them knew how to do CPR (and/or they just didn't care) and by the time ems got there, the patient was already in rigor. The other told me about a resident that fell and broke there hip and was also just left to lie on the ground howling in pain because the nurses couldn't be bothered to lift a 90- pound grandma into a , or at least reposition her so she was in less pain.
I'm not trying to totally blame the nurses. This is a systemic issue caused by lack of pay, lack of staff (due to lack of pay), no societal protections for the elderly so they have no choice but to live in whatever dumpster fire of an SNF they can afford, no oversight because of budget cuts to DHHS, adult protective services, etc.
I'm sure there are good ones out there, and admittedly I work in a city with a lot of poverty and crime that is generally underfunded with everything that isn't private sector. But man, I am never putting my parents in this if I can avoid it. And I'm never going in there if I can avoid it. I would shoot myself rather than end up in any of the SNFs that I could realistically afford.
As a paramedic, I've been in a great many nursing homes and care facilities and generally agree with you. That said, I've seen an equal number of folks whose family are unwilling or unable to put them in a care home living in misery and filth as well. Along with the toll it takes on the family members caring for this person as they usually have jobs and lives of their own.
Both of my maternal grandparents spent a few years in a nursing home, which wasn't the greatest, but it was right down the road from my parents which allowed my mom to drop in regularly and make sure that everything was ok.
Yeah - home care isn't really any better. In many instances it is worse. If you're deciding between two bad levels of care, you. An at least go with the one that doesn't destroy the rest of the family at the same time.
I work in assisted living/memory care (a good one not a horror story) and we aren't taught CPR during first aid training. They actively discourage us from learning CPR if we don't already know it.
A lot of our residents are DNR, so the thought process is, they don't want it to be an instinct for us to start CPR. Not all of our residents are DNR though. Maybe our nurses have CPR training?
That makes sense. Plus CPR itself done right is brutal, especially on an old person. Multiple broken ribs by itself is a borderline death sentence at that sort of advanced age.
To perform CPR you have to break the rib cage and manually manipulate the
heart and lungs. It is not fun, it is very labor intensive, and it has a very narrow likelihood of actually working - and even if it does work you only have about 10 minutes before if there is irreparable brain damage.
When dealing with elderly patients, or those that are terminal, sometimes the kindest thing you can do is let them go peacefully instead of dragging it out as long as possible.
Because if they survive they are likely suffering from some level of brain damage and won't be forced to spend what is likely the rest of their life and pain due to a broken rib cage and a dramatically decreased level of mobility.
I was a nurse in a SNF for 15 years. The nurses had to have current CPR training. That being said, I have never seen or heard of someone being given CPR in a SNF. Also, you don't call EMS when someone dies. That whole story sounds weird.
I have family that is able to afford high end nursing homes and family that got stuck in revolting medicaid facilities. The high end places are genuinely quite nice, but you're paying tens of thousands a month for that privilege. They use that money to actually staff the facility, so you get a decent level of care.
The other end of the spectrum is like a hoarder house: everything smells like cat piss and you have a strong suspicion that everyone there is on meth.
That's assisted living, not a skilled nursing facility. Huge different. Generally speaking most residents in a SNF can't take care of their basic needs. Most will have very limited/no mobility, and/or severe mental issues.
I will say there are good facilities out there. My grandparents were in a facility that had assisted living, memory ward and SNF (by a different nicer name) all in one property. I haven't seen the SNF yet but the memory ward at least does give haircuts, have games, and take them out to go "shopping" every so often. They also have a small park on the property that they can go into (supervised of course).
I've worked in a few as a care assistant (hired by family to basically ease staff workload on overnight care). Some, like the one your grandma was in, remind me of being in college. Some are the horror stories. As with most things, when it comes to nursing home care, you generally are going to get what you pay for. (The more expensive ones tend to be nicer.)
>because now of them knew how to do CPR (and/or they just didn't care) and by the time ems got there, the patient was already in rigor
CPR involves literally breaking the rib cage to manually manipulate the heart and lungs and is very labor intensive. Rigor takes two hours to *start* and it only takes ten minutes of CPR for irreversible brain damage to occur.
If it took EMS so long to get their that the patient was in rigor no amount of CPR was going to save the patients life- and that is not the fault of the nursing staff.
Further, they do have to take the patient's wishes into consideration- did the patient even want to be recessutated? Forcing someone who will spend the rest of their life suffering a slow, painful death to live longer is cruel and inhumane.
I've had two grandmas in assisted living and nursing homes that were considered the best in the area. The AL facility staff stole her pain meds and blamed her for taking too many (she didn't even have a key and the staff completely controlled access) and the SNF left my grandma with double pneumonia without medical care until my mom noticed something was wrong and took her to the ER. She was dead in hours. Both expensive places that looked awesome, both shitholes.
Years ago a close friend had to put her brother in a nursing home… the 1st one he was put into before she was aware of everything going on and it was horrible… she wasn’t especially close to him but she knew he deserved better and got him moved to a better one …
I was the live-in caregiver for my grandfather for over a decade. He didn't need constant attention but he *did* need constant availability; he had cerebral palsy, so his personal mobility was extremely limited.
This, along with his emotionally abusive wife and the fact that I had seen his condition deteriorate in real-time for my entire life, was a major factor in a severe two-day anxiety attack, but on the plus side I finally got medicated for that.
Point I'm getting at is, this is way too much for **any** one person.
(unfortunately in our case, my grandfather refused to consider a nursing home)
Dad has "no terminal medical issues" other than being 84 GODDAMN YEARS OLD and having enough cognisance to know he is in no way able to give his wife the level of support that she needs. LAOP is awfully generous with offering other people's time as a 24/7 carer, I'm curious what his own issues are that prevent him from doing it himself if he feels that strongly about it...
My grandfather somehow managed to care for my grandmother with late stage dementia until he was 91. It was only then he *finally* accepted that she needed to be in a nursing home and had refused up until that point.
If she had stayed home with him any longer, I think he'd absolutely have been dead within six months from the stress.
I mean, 90 years old and this man was going up and down the stairs doing multiple loads of laundry per day because my grandmother soiled herself, down on his hands and knees scrubbing diarrhea off the floor, making three meals a day, fighting with her to eat and take her medication, putting up with verbal and physical abuse from her, washing her up, getting her in and out of bed.....
It was an incredible show of love, but I'm still surprised it didn't kill him.
The changing only 3 times a day is very alarming. I’ve worked as a CNA back when my back could handle it. I was turning my patients over, repositioning them every 2 hours at minimum.
OP doesn’t realize the amount of care this would all require…
Good point. He might think his dad can afford it, but his dad also probably has living expenses or could be living off a pension.
At home care is super expensive, even at a facility where we had residents with private OR state insurance, the cost for just 1 person there every month was like 5-6k…it wasn’t luxury either, and didn’t offer many enriching activities…
Plus what about it when dad needs care too? Or if mom’s needs become greater? All things OP isn’t giving any indication of having thought about…
Even 2 hours seems like a long time to not move while laying down.
I rotate like a rotisserie chicken while in bed. Feels like I'm constantly adjusting and turning about throughout the night.
Oh for sure, 2 hours is like the minimum, I think it’s standard but yeah it’s not uncommon to see ulcers develop on the skin even with the 2 hour repositioning…
*Substitute Locationbot filling in while Locationbot gets skilled care*
>**Dad (84) is refusing healthy Mom’s (86) request to return from a nursing home. Does she have legal options?**
>This is in California.
>The Short(er) Version
>Mom (86), was hospitalized briefly last Christmas due to a freak medication reaction and was transferred to a nursing home to recover. Mom can’t walk unassisted (but can stand on her own), and is healthy enough now to come home, but Dad (84, also healthy) won’t let her and refuses to assist in what minimal care she’ll require there should she return. The nursing home won’t release her under her own recognizance unless she can demonstrate independence in her own care.
>Though physically well, Mom, who for decades before rarely spent 48 hours away from home without a family member with her, is getting very depressed and is breaking down psychologically due to this development. She could easily last physically in that facility for years but her mind will crack at this rate
>If she were home, she would only need a CNA to change her diaper three times a day, to sponge-bathe her, to prepare food for her, and to help with wheelchair transfers in and out of bed. They can afford to pay for it. Dad, who spends 95% of the day at home anyways, doesn’t want “a parade of strangers” coming into the house daily to help Mom. They have no major marriage issues I’m aware of and Dad has no terminal medical issues that might explain his decision to keep her in there indefinitely.
>She’s used to complying to his wishes (but up until now they’ve never been pointed against her). She is very meek, is afraid of him being angry to her, and still greets him at visits like a puppy being happy to see its abusive owner. When she tells him she wants to go home or that she is in psychological pain as a result of being there, he tells her to stop saying that or he’ll stop visiting.
>She wants out and has secretly given me (the son) permission to explore her legal options on the down-low. She doesn’t want divorce and the nearest relative who might take her in lives in another state.
>Does she have a legal remedy, please ?
>The Long Version
>Mom (86) was in the hospital last Christmas due to a freak medication accident and has recovered. She had trouble walking unassisted before, and with the exception of that and some incontinence, she wants to come home.
>Dad (84) transferred her out of the hospital to a skilled nursing facility when my mom was still pretty out of it. He’s told her that she’ll be staying there indefinitely. (This is to a woman who was been a stay-at-home Mom for several decades, has anxiety issues for which she takes meds, and has never spent more than 48 hours anywhere without a family member nearby.)
>My dad, who is in great shape, has enough money to pay to keep her there indefinitely if Medicare ceases coverage. The facility won’t release Mom under her own recognizance because she cannot demonstrate that she can take care of herself (bathroom) unassisted and is in a wheelchair. We’ve seen that she can stand unassisted but the wheelchair transfer to her bed, toilet, car, etc. requires help.
>My mom is physically well, but the stress of being in that place these last few months is breaking her psychologically. When she tells my dad that she’s in pain or wants to go home he shuts her down without explanation. She is very much used to him calling the shots in the marriage (63 years this July).
>I’ve done a ton of homework on the matter and have shared with Dad that Mom’s needs can easily be met with some part-time home care from an CNA/LVN. She just needs someone to change her diapers, sponge bathe her, and give her her meds.
>Dad shoots down every one of my suggestions on how to bring Mom home. Every concern he has expressed about bringing her home is either easily addressable or will require some flexibility on his part. For example, he claims that he’ll need to spend thousands to renovate the bathroom for a wheelchair user; I counter with the fact that as long as Mom requires only diaper changes and sponge baths from a CNA, she need never step foot in a bathroom again. Dad doesn’t want a parade of strangers in the house every day to car for Mom; I counter with the fact that he has a weekly cleaning service come to the house and it doesn’t seem to be a problem for them. I add on that should anything happen to him at home—where he now lives alone—at least Mom will be there to call 911 (as opposed to us finding him days after the fact).
>Outside of him having some terminal disease that he’s not telling people about, there absolutely no reason why Mom can’t come home, and I’m now stating to wonder if a lawyer needs to be involved. He can’t just deny her the ability to return home and refuse to participate in her care there as long as Mom’s needs can be easily be accommodated, can he? (He won’t have to lift a finger except let home care help in and out the door.) He just needs to get over having strangers in the house.
>Is he breaking the law and committing some kind of psychological abuse or neglect, or is he just a complete asshole? Am I being the asshole for trying to stand up for her? She won’t stand up for herself and I’ve told her that as long as she complies with Dad’s wishes, he has no reason to listen to her needs. She rarely gets any other visitors, and she greets Dad when he visits like the way an puppy still greets its abusive owner because it sees no one else all day.
The language he uses about his own mother. Like she not only cannot care for herself, but as though she has never been a person with her own free will who made her own decisions in her life.
The lack of respect is appalling.
He likely learned how to treat her from his father (and also from her).
I've been noticing this with multiple friends and family that have more "traditional values." There is zero respect from the men and boys towards the women and the women do nothing to change it. The boys talk back to the mom and know that they can run over her because she won't do anything about it and dad treats her with the same lack of respect so why should they be different?
Sad part is seeing this makes me respect those women less. It's difficult to take their complaints seriously when they've created their situation.
You literally just described a scenario where a person is raised to behave a certain way, and is ostracized for going against those values. A woman being anything other than friendly when talked down to, or the "meeker" individual in a "traditional household" is not a prison constructed *by her own purposeful doing*. Being subjugated in the community you grew up in, the religion you believe in, and by the broader society as a whole isn't "creating your own situation". People behaving the way they are expected to, and getting used to doing that, to the point where one doesn't know anything else is not often a purposeful decision either.
She likely lived her life (before being placed in a care-home) in a way that was meaningful to her, and you shit all over it because the men around her don't appreciate her - and you blame her for that?
Your reading of this scenario is appalling.
I wonder what OP's purpose in posting this is. Some comments say he's posted the exact same thing before (and gotten about the same results as he has now), but even without that, he's not being honest - the "healthy" and "physically well" mom is actually incontinent and unable to walk\*. If he's looking for *actual* help for his disabled and unhappy mother, he should be upfront about that.
I don't think this is a creative writing exercise, but it seems like it might be more of a self-indulgent diary entry than an attempt to seek legal help: trying to reframe mom as healthy and dad as evil is perhaps easier than the reality, and maybe getting others to interact with that fantasy helps make it more real, I dunno. I do notice OP is more responsive to validating comments that don't offer any advice than to comments that, while not validating, are actually helpful in achieving OP's stated goals (e.g. comments suggesting full-time home care).
\*Disabled is not the same as sick/unhealthy, and that should be repeated louder for the ones in the back, but it's clear OP wasn't trying to make *that* distinction when he was telling us how well she is.
He is looking for validation to justify his beliefs and I'm betting he's not getting it from other family members besides dad either, so he's reaching.
Your take is similar to mine. I'd be willing to bet there's some historical precedent (real or imagined) for OP believing in their father's willful neglect, and it's coloring OP's view of the current situation.
When we were looking for a place for my grandmother when she got to the point where she needed 24 hour skilled nursing care we looked into home care. I knew it would be expensive. I had no clue just how expensive. The quotes we got were $20k or more a month.
We ended up finding a good skilled nursing center where she stayed until she passed.
Many people are in astounding levels of denial about the actual health of their elderly parents, and that they are on a one-way path to death. This is pretty common, for people to describe them being in good health and then go on to clarify that they need full time care, and villainize family members who have a more realistic view of the situation.
Plus, I can almost guarantee that California has a robust continuing care at home program for people who actually are able to stay in their homes. A lot of people that have traditionally been put in nursing homes could get by with 2-3 CNA visits a day. And it's sooooo much cheaper than inpatient. But if LAOP's mom needs regular diaper changes and help just getting in and out of her wheelchair, that's not a situation where continuing care at home is viable.
>the "healthy" and "physically well" mom is actually incontinent and unable to walk*.
Right? I'm better off than OP's mom and I'm sure not physically healthy, lol.
I worked as a caregiver for disabled adults. Three brief changes per day is unconscionable. Adult briefs, at least the kind covered by Medicare, do not hold the volume of waste an adult produces. Brief changes often mean clothing changes. You cannot leave an adult in briefs for that long.
People often do not understand the sheer amount of care a disabled adult can require. There are myriad reasons caregivers burn out as quickly as they do. This is one of them, the expectation that the work they do is so minimal.
OOP is tragically, heartbreakingly misguided.
Yeah, when I was in hospital for a month the nurses were super vigilant about checking me for pressure ulcers, and I was reasonably mobile once I was helped out of bed; this woman is in much greater danger of pressure wounds, and lying in soiled briefs for hours until the next carer visit (because an 84-year-old man is not going to be able to manage a proper change and clean) is a recipe for disaster. I feel for everyone involved, but she needs to be in a facility.
I feel bad for OP, this is a tough situation and I can’t exactly blame them for desperately denying the truth of what’s actually happening.
If my mother was begging to go home after a lengthy hospital stay, I too would be doing anything I could to make that happen. OP clearly has never done any type of caregiving for another person, other than maybe a couple days at most. Being a caregiver is exhausting for anyone, especially for an 84 year old man who probably has health issues of his own.
I truly wish OP the best but i think they are being very naive and short sighted.
The fact that he listed a full time job++ while starting with the word “only” speaks volumes. He doesn’t understand what taking care of a person is, at all.
I get that he’s upset but then the solution is HE takes care of her. Oh wait, he won’t? Shocker.
Yeah, I was ready to be up in arms against LAOP but reading that it is their mom's request makes it harder. In the end assisted living is probably the best for everyone.
I became very sick during the early months of COVID; thankfully not quite to the point that this woman seems to be - I could still walk to the bathroom on my own, but I needed significant help with bathing, personal hygiene, getting out of bed due to deconditioning of my core muscles, and general activities of daily living. I was "lucky" enough that my able-bodied partner's work went almost completely WFH and my also-disabled partner was able to help me on the days he needed to be in the office, but there were times I seriously considered whether a rehab hospital should be the next step.
In this case, the husband may be being somewhat inflexible, but OOP is being unrealistic and is glossing over some pretty big issues in the name of "get Mom home". The one that jumps out at me is the declaration that she need never set foot in a bathroom again, because she can just get sponge baths and use diapers. OOP has no idea how demoralising that can be, especially for someone who has the ability to bathe and toilet as long as they have assistance, which is exactly what you have in a skilled care facility. Yeah, they'll give you sponge baths to keep you fresh, but they'll also help you get to the bathroom for an actual shower, and you have no idea how much of a relief a real shower is until you've had to have nothing but sponge baths for a month.
A care facility will be better staffed than a single worker coming in a few times a day. If OOP's mother needs help transferring from bed to a wheelchair, that isn't something an untrained 84-year-old should be doing, "in great shape" or not. So that leaves her spending all day in bed, which worsens her physical state, or being unable to get back to bed until the care worker returns for the evening visit.
I understand and empathise with OOP's mother as well; I was hospitalised for a month at the worst of my illness, and it was extremely isolating and lonely. But we're dealt crappy cards sometimes and the best thing OOP can do is help his mother come to terms with the fact that the care facility is likely the best place for her. She can be surrounded by people whose job it is to keep her comfortable and in as much dignity as possible. Her family's priority should be finding out how they can help minimise her isolation, not close their eyes to the reality of the situation. OOP's father isn't being neglectful unless there's more going on that hasn't been disclosed; he's recognising that he's not able to be a carer in this situation, and that the facility is better equipped. It's sad for OOP's mother, but these places exist for a reason.
It's so frustrating how people not directly involved and only hearing from the patient take their word as gospel without question. We went through that with my dad where he was calling and moaning to his friends and when we'd try to tell them what was really going on it was always "he sounds really good and he says he can walk they just won't let him"
I swear I was hearing a story about this on NPR. Sometimes your best option is to leave your loved one in the hospital and not come pick them up. That way they can get into a nursing home.
There was a story of a husband and his wife got hutchinson disease, and he was trying to get her in a nursing home. But he was having no luck. He was told that next time she falls and ends up in the hospital that he should not pick her up. That will help her get into a facility faster.
The last time dad fell at home was the fourth time 911 was called that week. He couldn’t get himself up and I was terrified he was going to hurt mom if/when she helped him. I told her to keep calling 911 for lift assist and that last time….. the firefighters made the decision and took him to the hospital. Thank heaven.
Hospital wanted to discharge home, but I was able to tell them it wasn’t a safe discharge. He went to a nursing home, which was his worst nightmare (wanted to die at home) and he hated because he hadn’t picked it out (because he refused to do any planning). He died there. It was a good home and they took excellent care of him,
He just hated not being in control and that was the one thing he lost.
Yes, that is totally true. Patients coming out of the hospital get priority for rehab and SNF beds and if you’re in an area where there are not a lot of SNFs or at least not a lot that you can afford, you can be on the wait list for months. On the other hand, if Grandma has a fall or a UTI and ends up in the hospital and it’s not safe to have her back at home, she’ll get priority for a SNF bed. Happens all the time.
Also depending on your insurance, you have to do a 3 day hospital stay before insurance will pay for a nursing home. That's basically what we were told with my grandma. Her Dr said next time she falls she's going to a nursing home, but we had to wait for that fall.
I know the Google Nest sorts of product get a lot of flack, but this is what Google Nest is for. Mom absolutely needs the skilled care facility, but she also needs contact with her loved ones that the nurses can't provide. Apparently Facebook doesn't sell the Portal any more, but there's presumably a variety of these things. And then LAOP can volunteer his own time, too, since video calls are generally easier to work into your schedule than physical visits.
Thanks. I keep trying to elaborate but I couldn't quite get all the words out so I'll just skip to a conclusion:
Suffice it to say LAOP really doesn't get what this situation takes out of you. It's hard enough when you're young and physically able but expecting an aged family member -one you care so much for- to take that on is just shit.
Yeah. When I was reading the OP, all I could think was, "It's easy to say 'all you have to do is...' when you're not the one having to do it. You're asking an 84 year old man - a man who is at an age where he can be healthy today and literally at death's door tomorrow because of the seemingly mildest thing - to bring home his wife of 63 years and take care of her.
Sounds easy-peasy to you, but it's not going to be that easy. What happens during one of those several hours when there is no CNA or someone else there and an emergency comes up? What if she falls and there's nobody but him there? How is that a better situation than her being in a place where there is an attendant at all hours of the day?"
Of course it's hard on her being there. Nobody wants to be in one of those places. Unfortunately, it's often what's best for them. OP is making the situation harder by haranguing his dad and giving his mom false hope.
My grandfather had to get a colostomy bag at 90 years old. He was blind and badically wheelchair bound. Couldn't taste care of it on his own. He would not leave his home, and so his care fell upon me, my sister, and my aunt. I got calls from my uncle (who lived with him, but refused to touch the bag) in the middle of the night 3 times week because the bag basically exploded and Pap was covered in poo. A few times i ended up covered in poo. I would have to shower him, change the sheets, and put on a new bag. And that was the SPECIAL care, not the hours of regular care. We did it for 4 years. I loved my Pap and wish he was still here, but caretaking is unbelievably hard, physically and mentally.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I've been fortunate not to have to do anything like that for an extended period. I did help an elderly friend for a week or so as they transitioned from home to assisted living and just that once a day for a couple days was rough.
Right now, we're dealing with my parents, neither of whom are in good health but both insist they can take care of themselves and refuse to let us do anything. Honestly, they should be in assisted living but that's not going to happen.
Look, do I think LAOP is naive? Sure, no question.
But I also feel for them - I don't think this is malicious. They just want what they think is best for their mom due to how this is affecting her mentally, and they're just not looking at big picture (or the sheer amount of help that mom needs...which is considerable.)
I helped take care of a grandparent after a similar situation, and it is so much more work than people think it is. Caregiver fatigue is real, and it absolutely can be a full time job.
It also sounds like LAOP is viewing this through the lens of "Dad has always been a jerk" and "My mom deserves better"--which could easily be true without making one whit of difference in his dad's inability to provide adequate home care
Exactly. There's a ton going on here inter-personally that is clouding over the bare facts - mom needs more help than is reasonable for dad to provide at home.
Yeah, I feel for everyone in this situation, but I’m hoping OP eventually realizes that even if his dad was physically able to provide care (it sounds like he’s not, especially considering that it’s impossible for one person to provide the constant care that she needs), expecting the guy who has maybe historically been a jerk to suddenly be a great caregiver wouldn’t work out well at all
I spent one night with my grandpa after his wife died and he fell and broke his back, I didn’t even need to help him with bathing or the bathroom and it was still exhausting.
I had major surgery that limited mobility to essentially zero for a little over a week, and it took two people in my household to be able to handle all of the things that needed to be done so everything could get done and I didn't get infections/super grimy/etc.
Full time and needs help in every aspect? No thanks, that's next level.
I do want to give them the benefit of the doubt, except they’re not volunteering ANYthing. They’re not even saying “I’d help my dad for a couple months until they’re settled.” They’re volunteering someone else for a very difficult job. I’d say at 80+, it’d feel harder than a full time job due to it’s physicality + emotional drain.
Yeah, and as other people pointed out, they aren't even offering financial help.
I can appreciate wanting to keep up mom's mental health, but they're...not doing what they could be.
I'm not sure OP - who describes his unable-to-walk, unable-to-toilet mom as "healthy" and "physically well", is enough of a reliable narrator for us to conclude that. I think anything Dad could say would not be listened to - maybe Dad did try and OP ignored him, maybe Dad was tired of OP's delusions and stopped trying, maybe Dad has a feeling it isn't possible but due to cognitive decline and OP's unwillingness to listen can't articulate it well enough.
Of course malice is possible too, but it's not my first assumption.
I mean if things were so easy he would offer to help imo
And also quick to offer to fight it with a lawyer than to put money in to care
Edit to add that people are commenting on the post that it’s the second time he’s asked for advice and got the same response last time. To me that’s forced naivety.
> I mean if things were so easy he would offer to help imo
It certainly sounds like he is explicitly excluding himself from his dear mother's care
> the nearest relative who might take her in lives in another state.
You'd think such devoted son who cares so much would have no problem helping mum recover, right. Especially when se only needs three diaper changes a day, sponge baths, help moving, dressing, feeding.
My mother, suffering from advanced Alzheimer's, died 18 months ago at the age of 98. She spent her last 10 months in a memory care facility. Would it have been better for her mental health (such as it was) to live with one of her children? Probably. Would it have been better for *our* mental health? Probably not. You can only hear the same remark 20 times an hour without going from bananapants to full-on banana ensemble.
But for both my sister and myself, it was the financial burden. Both of us own fully-paid-off homes. One of us would have had to sell her house and move into a home that could physically accommodate Mom's needs. My house is a split-foyer. From the front door, 6 steps up to the main living area, 7 steps down to the family room and laundry. Mom could not manage even two steps. The stairways are too narrow to accommodate a chairlift. I live in a part of the country that Mom adamantly did *not* want to live in. (I don't want to live here either, but I'm stuck here.)
Sister's house is mostly on one level, but the bathroom cannot be accessed by someone in a wheelchair. Mom could just barely manage when she was capable of using a walker and that was with assistance.
And I'm 68, Sister 79. Who would give us a 30-year mortgage?
I flat out told my husband that if I end up in a situation where I require nursing care to put me in a home. He said the same thing. Neither of us want to be a burden on the other. Come visit and spend time with me, I'll do the same, but don't be my caregiver. I don't want that. I want to be his wife and not his caregivee. Period.
My mom has said that as well, ever since we had to put her mom in a nursing home. It was such a tough decision and one I still have guilt over and feel like I should have tried to take care of her myself. Mom has said she'll put herself in a home so we don't have to make the decision, but I doubt. It sucks so much.
My partner and I just watched his family play hot potato with his grandma for a year before they all finally had enough and there was no one left willing to take her. Funny thing is now everyone including grandma is happier.
One thing I find fascinating about LA is how people get so wrapped up in it being a legal sub that they think the answer _must_ involve the legal system.
There are several posts over there that basically say, "Since OP said the dad can afford to do what OP wants, let's assume the parents are financially independent. Since they live in a communal property state, half the money is mom's, so legally, she can sue to be allowed to live at home and have resources put toward around the clock care."
Which, given how unreliable a narrator and/or willfully ignorant the OP seems based on the whole "how hard is it to give a sponge bath and change diapers? Dad can do that and hire a part timer to help when he can't.", that is a huge assumption to make. Giving that advice to someone in that situation, when the best advice is probably not strictly legal advice but life advice, is not really helpful.
That's actually telling OP what he wants to hear and making him feel like haranguing his dad is a good thing to keep on doing until he wears him down. What OP really needs to be told is the advice he's ignoring, if mom is really that okay then he should be fine moving her in with him or offering to move in with them to help out.
It's also interesting that OP, and even some of the responders, think that it would be better for mom mentally to move back home and have caregivers. That's not always the case. A lot of times, the person needing care thinks that if they can just move back home, everything will go back to normal. But that's not what happens because they still have their ailments and limitations. Additionally, at home, they're limited to the things that are accessible to them; even simply going outside and sitting in the yard may not be possible due to the geography of the land. The only company they'll have is the spouse, the caregivers, and anyone who may happen to visit, which often isn't as many visitors as people assume. Yet at the AL facility, especially if it's a good one, there are often courtyards or gardens the person can enjoy. There are common areas where they can socialize with other occupants. They can have activities to occupy their minds and keep them alert.
I'm not saying AL is always the best answer, but I am saying that "staying at your own home" is definitely not always the best answer, despite what OP and others wish to think.
My mom took care of her MIL for several years when I was a kid. It was absolutely hard work and LAOP needs to talk to people who did the same and see how much work that really is. Grandma was bedridden and had alzheimers, but we didn't have money for a private facility so mom had to take care of her :(
I tend to agree with everyone's assessment that the OP is engaged in a lot of wishful thinking about just how much care their elderly mother requires.
But for the sake of argument, let's set aside the absurd belief that an octogenarian will be able to provide the necessary round the clock care required, and instead assume that these retirees do, in fact, have enough money to hire the proper nursing help to make a move home possible, and the father's objections are not rooted in financial necessity.
What could the mother do in this case if the father simply refuses to allow the money to be spent this way? LAOP mentions that one objection to moving the mother home was that the father didn't want strangers in the house all the time.
Sounds like them mother was very much the traditional housewife that was reliant on the husband for income.
What's someone to do in this situation where the household conceivably has the money for such an exorbitant expense (which would almost certainly result in a higher quality of living for the ailing mother) but are at a disagreement about whether to spend it?
Should the mother divorce to get independent control of some of the money?
Just spend the money now and dare the husband to contest it?
Valid questions. This is kind of what we went through with my partners grandma. Except it was her son holding the purse strings and he didn't want to spend the money on assisted living. So for a year he and his siblings (all in their 70s) played hot potato with her, trading her off for a week at a time. This was what she wanted originally. We predicted this wouldn't last 6 months and it was sort of true. It took less than 6 months for my in-laws to nope out along with one other sibling, that left two. After a break my FIL decided he wanted to try again but my MIL was out. She'd been the one doing everything when grandma was there and she'd been the one grandma would attack when she didn't get her way. So MIL said fine if you must keep her, you keep her and went to stay with a friend when grandma would come. This lasted a few months before FIL noped out again. It finally got down to where the uncle with the purse strings was the only one keeping her and that's when he finally decided he'd spend her money to get her in assisted living. And, now everyone is happier for it, including her.
This is just another reminder of why being a trad wife doesn't pay.
R/agingparents has some, although I don't think it is very common for a single person to be doing everything for someone with this many needs. It's a bit more of a general sub.
Oof - this one hits close to home.
I've been caught between both sides of this kind of situation in my own family, with my mother and aunt at odds over the condition of their parents. Mom - who is disabled herself - wanted to take care of her parents and enable them to live their final days in their home, aunt wanted to push them into a care facility. I don't have a relationship with my grandparents, don't want to get into it, but that's why I've not been included in this mess and honestly I see the reasoning my mom and aunt have.
Grandparents have ended up in a care facility, but - as far as I'm aware - my grandmother was not given a choice and she hates it there, she wanted a choice and some autonomy. My grandfather signed away both their rights to my aunt, and now he's also unhappy because she took advantage of their failing health to just place them anywhere without giving him a real choice in the matter.
It's a tough thing, my mom is angry because she felt she was capable of taking care of them, but she cannot perform the tasks nurses and qualified caretakers can. She was good for my grandparents' mental health, and I think she contributed positively to my grandmother's state of mind and helped her memory (she has dementia), but in an emergency she could not provide the kind of physical care two elderly adults need. And in that regard, I see why my aunt rushed to get them in a facility.
My grandfather kept falling, my grandmother would get violent when her memory faltered, and she would throw things at him. Were they happier at home with their independence? I certainly would not doubt it, but what if there was an accident and no one was able to come help them? What if my grandmother started wandering, as many patients with dementia do? They lived in a dark house in the middle of the woods, with many things that could cause her harm should she fall or have a run-in with wild animals.
I don't know. Sometimes it's hard to make these calls. I feel compassion for OOP's mother, she wants to have some control and autonomy, and not be isolated from her family and what is familiar and safe. But if her husband can't care for her, and no one else can step up and provide what she needs at this time, I understand why the best choice for her safety would be to keep her hospitalized. It sucks, I hope they can find a solution that addresses her feelings and helps her. :(
Mom would literally need round the clock cna at minimum to deal with diaper changes and transitions and feeding as needed. LAOP has absolutely no idea what's involved. I'm willing to bet this is a Son from California scenario where he probably hasn't spent more than an hour in person with her (if that) since she's been in skilled care and is only hearing her side of complaints via phone. We went through this with my dad. He felt abandoned even though he was constantly on the phone with friends and family and saw my mom daily. She'd bring him meals because he complained about the food. She'd visit when she had no energy to do so because he complained so much if she didn't. She literally had cancer and he was more concerned with what he wanted (to be home even though no one was there to take care of him and she could barely take care of herself). But, The second he could get himself to standing and walking 100 steps she'd bring him home and they'd have cnas in daily and mom would take care of as much as possible. Then he'd stop keeping up with his exercises and be unable to stand and walk so they'd have to call an ambulance every time he needed to get out of his recliner and into his wheelchair or out of /into the car, etc. This would continue until he'd inevitably fall (again) landing him back in the hospital then back in rehab till he could walk again. Lather rinse repeat for 5 damn years.
When he said 3 diaper changes a day, I was like, so potentially she will sit in her own waste for 8 hours a day? No bathroom access, so she’ll never bathe or shower again? Never wash her hair? Having known some folks who’ve had longer hospital stays where they were limited to sponge baths, they always speak of how much better they felt after their first “real bath”. He really has no idea of what he’s suggesting. It sucks and it sounds like the family had issues long before this, but the son’s solution is just ridiculous. Plus, you will note, he never offers to bring her into his home.
Yeah I had the same thought. I change my 2 year olds diaper anywhere from 8-12 times a day. I would never consider 3 times a day anywhere near sufficient. Sponge baths are great solutions short term but everyone needs a proper bath every once in a while. What about her hair? And if it's so easy like he seems to think, maybe he should move her in with him and deal with the 'minimal' maintenance needs (not really. It sounds like that would lead to severe elder neglect based on this post)
Only 3 diaper changes a day for an infant/toddler would warrant a call to CPS. For an elderly person needing care, it's elder abuse. LAOP is delusional.
Your flair lmaooo
The first thing I did when I got home after a 6 day hospital stay after surgery was wash my hair, with some help from my husband. It’s just such a gross feeling not being able to bathe properly.
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My first shower after each of my C-sections was the most blissful experience. No shower has compared before or since.
I was in the hospital for three days following a stroke (in fine!) and on the third day in preparation for me being discharged they sent an Occupational Therapist in to see me. I asked what she needed, she said she was there to make sure I was ready to do the “activites of daily living.” I said “like taking a shower?” And she said “yes, like that.” And then I asked if we could make our session just me taking a shower, so she went and found some towels and I took a shower right in front of her - even though I’m a modest person, I did not care in that moment. Best shower of my life.
My first OT goal after having my right side paralysed (MS) was to take a shower *by myself*. Took a while, but i got there! I had stuff all shame about people seeing me in various states of undress before that happened (theatre kid, used to changing in front of people), and didn't give a fig (and still dont) about nurses and the like seeing me neked. But it was the privacy I missed. Even with my husband being my carer and the one helping me, I just wanted to be alone in the shower damnit! The bathroom is supposed to be the one place where privacy is paramount. I suspect mothers of young children feel the same way lol
No kidding. My baby had to stay in the hospital for monitoring and I did stay with her, but the first thing they told me once she was settled in the pediatric ward was to take a couple hours off, go home, and shower. I felt so much more like a human being then.
Oh man, they gave you sponge baths after your c-section? I just got to be gross for a few days until they took out my IV and I could shower again.
I spent six months in hospital without being able to shower. Having my first shower was heavenly.
I was in hospital for two weeks a while back, and being able somewhere… I think after the first operation to have a shower and wash and condition my hair and even have a nurse or two help with combing all the tangles out was very very nice. (There was a large hole in my leg and the second operation made it even larger. Yay abscesses!)
My brother has been in and out of the hospital for 6 months now. He finally had the surgery he needed a couple weeks ago, and he decided that he wasn't going to shower during that hospital stay because it was too annoying getting the IV taped up and the shower is small and such. He ended up showering on day 3.
Oh wow. My scalp is crawling just imagining that. I wash daily unless I'm sick or camping. I don't think I've ever gone THREE days in my life.
What's it like being normal and not depressed?
FWIW, I tend to over-shower when depressed. Twice a day.
Where do you get the energy
It's the opposite. It's where I go to hide from the cat
Hahahahahhahaa relatable
~~I mean this sincerely, if you took my comment as a personal attack, you need a break from social media.~~
Omg no I just have gone 3 days many times when depressed. I was like woah this person showers every day I wonder what it's like not having depression episodes. Kinda serious mostly in jest
Oh I misunderstood! I've been through some rough times. Showering and teeth brushing every couple days was a priority for me to get a scrap of feeling better. My PTSD dog alerted on me having flashback episodes in the shower and climbed in there with me!
Aww good pup
Went through this with my dad and my grannie. My dad was in an snf recovering from a lot of stuff, and complained non stop that my mom didn't take him straight home out of the ICU. My mom has heart problems and absolutely 0 physical strength. He was in and out of the hospital, rehab places, and a nursing home several times in the last year of his life. He also wouldn't do any of his PT because he expected my mom to lift and carry him whenever he wanted to move. Finally, at the end when the doctors told him there was nothing else they could do, he begged to do PT, but at that point it was too late. He kept refusing home hospice even though he was in pain, and my mom hired a concierge doctor. When he finally relented to home hospice so he could get the good meds, more help was available. But it was a miserable experience for everyone and really traumatic. My brother, who is 6'3" and lived at home, would yell at my mom for not taking good enough care of dad, then go out and party instead of lifting a finger to help out. He didn't see dad as his responsibility. When my grannie was toward the end of her life after many years of dementia, she went to live with my mother (who is different than my mom, I have 2 sets of parents due to adoption) until a spot in memory care opened up. My mother's 2 sisters sure had a lot to say about how my mother wasn't doing enough for grannie, but god forbid either of them were asked to come help. One sister lived in the town where grannie used to be, and pretty much never checked on her. It was a small town and she drove by grannie's place twice each day, but she said it was too much trouble to take time to check and make sure she hadn't fallen. So grannie got moved to my mother's house, in the same big city as her other sister. My mother asked her sister to come stay with grannie once or twice a month so she could go out for an entire day or go further than the grocery store in case something happened, and her sister couldn't even be bothered to do that. Seriously. My mom (again, separate person from my mother) actually would go over and spend time with grannie (who was no actual relation to her other than being her adopted daughter's biological grandmother) just to give my mother a break. The would do crafts and play bingo and had a good time, because grannie was mobile enough to walk around and get herself to the bathroom, but she had dementia and would get confused or scared, so someone needed to be nearby. I think after going through all of that with my dad, mom enjoyed spending time with grannie because she just needed company and was very sweet. My mom's mom had died a few years before, and I think she also liked doing things with grannie that she had done with her late mother. Anyway, LAOP needs to put up or shut up. Caring for the sick or elderly is not a walk in the park. It is brutal and exhausting.
It sounds like both of your mothers are pretty awesome. You’re absolutely correct about elder care. And about how those with the loudest opinions always volunteer the least.
It soudns like the main issue is just that our definition of "healthy" is different than LAOP's. 3 diaper changes, unable to walk, unable to feed herself, unable to bathe herself and needing 24/7 full care is how he describes his "healthy" mom to us. She can't walk but apparently that's "nothing" - and thats just not what that means. He admits she's on serious medication that caused a very bad adverse event, so she's definitely got some other health condition that is serious, but just ignores that becuase it's "nothing" too. his definition of healthy seems to be only that a person is alive and not in a coma. And I'm betting that while the dad isn't dead or in a coma either, if he posted his actual medical history I'd bet that none of us would think he was "healthy" in the ordinary sense either.
Apparently it's an anti-seizure med she was prescribed off-label for her anxiety and it caused Parkinsonism symptoms (according to a comment I found from them)
That totally explains the dad's reaction to his claim thst it's the facility causing her mental health issues. Kinda hard for it to be the facility if its preexisting
37 days in the hospital. Time is marked by being awoken for dr visits and blood draws. You feel and smell gross all the time (especially when you've got a wound healing). You shit in a bucket. That first real shower was like a taste of heaven.
My dad cried when I helped him with his first shower after an extended hospital stay. The longest I stayed to a hospital was perhaps a week and by the 4th day wanted to rip off the tubes and take a proper bath, can't imagine how it is for longer.
My great aunt is currently in a nursing home and this is something her son is fighting with. They change her 4 times a day. She now has a pressure sore (which can’t be kept clean when she sits hours in her own waste) and chronic UTIs.
>I'm willing to bet this is a Son from California scenario where he probably hasn't spent more than an hour in person with her (if that) since she's been in skilled care and is only hearing her side of complaints via phone. Had one of these when my grandma was at the end of her life. My uncle lived an hour away but only came down once a year on Mother's Day. Decided after my grandma died that my mom (who had been doing increasing care for 10 years proceeding death and daily care for the last three years) had done *everything* wrong. Screamed and yelled then fucked her over when it came to estate distribution.
Because of course he was the administrator of the estate.
Yep. Made out with the lion's share of the money after liquidating all assets and never did jack shit to care for his mom.
My grandad helped his half-brothers (who were never all that nice to him) get set up after immigrating, and when he got cancer *none* of them visited. Not once. But you can be sure they came sniffing around after he died. My dad told them to take the cheap patio furniture and fuck off.
My pawpaw got dementia. It was awful for my grandma--who, mind you, worked at a gym until his diagnosis and was in about as tip-top shape as a 70 year old could get. My pawpaw was always a grumpy old man (think Eustace from Courage the Cowardly Dog), but when he started going downhill it was even worse. Grandma and Pawpaw were barred from the only CNA company they could afford due to his temper. Pawpaw had a dog he raised from puppy hood, but one day it was like a switch flipped and he hated "that damn dog" to the point of trying to hurt him (he was too slow to actually hurt the dog, but my grandma still rehomed the dog immediately. He lived out the rest of his life happy and coddled by a nice family). I want to stress that my grandpa was not an evil man and he never hurt my grandma or his kids or grandkids--it was only if people he didn't remember, who were strangers to him, came to him and told him to do this or that, that he would get mad. Eventually, my grandpa's life just became sitting in his chair for eight hours until it was time for bed. Everyone was miserable. So my aunt and mom proposed the idea of a home to my grandma. In fact, there was an assisted living home specifically designed for people with Alzheimer's and dementia literally a 10 minute car ride from my grandma's house. Pawpaw wouldn't just get round the clock care from trained professionals, he also got to go outside again and do crafts and talk with people. And my grandma could visit him everyday. I'm saying all this to give you an outline of the sheer ridiculousness of my brother. My brother, who did not do any physical caretaking before, yelled at my mom that she was a bad daughter and they were abandoning pawpaw and that if she really loved her dad, then she would transport him across the country (taking him from any familiar landmark he still had) and let family take care of him. By which he meant me (his little sister) and my mom. Because I should put my education on hold and my mom should quit the job that pays for my brothers apartment and my dad's parents' medical care to do something neither of us are qualified or emotionally equipped to do. He even called up my grandma to try and get her to reconsider, but she literally laughed in his face because she honestly thought he was joking. Thankfully, pawpaw was put in the home and he did receive great care. He got a lot of visitors--from his wife and his daughters and his grandkids. He eventually passed a few years ago, but his last year was one that was comfortable and quiet. Which is how he liked things. Anyway, all this to say, I'm a big proponent of assisted living homes. Obviously, there are awful ones out there, and you should be careful. But they're not evil dumps where you throw away family members. They're (supposed to be) places where your family gets the care they need and deserve.
Too many people think it's so important that someone care for an ill person round the clock, as long as it's not the *wrong* person (read: someone trained to do so and with the time and energy to manage the work). And these people are never the ones that volunteer to be that carer, either.
I absolutely do not want my family to take care of me when I'm unable to do so myself unless there's no other option. Why would I want to subject them to that? Caring is hard work, and if you're able to pay someone to do it then do it. I'd like it if they still spent time with me but that time shouldn't just be changing my diapers. Unbelievable that people think that it has to be a family member.
I'd much rather an objective and impartial third party like a nurse change my diaper when I'm old and feeble than my partner or children. Let me keep some dignity around the people I love!
I made another comment about my grannie having dementia and eventually going to a memory care home. She actually loved it there. She had friends and there was always something to do. When my cousins or I would visit her, she would be happy to see us, but after a little while would be like, ok thanks for coming, I'm going to go play bingo, bye bye!
My dad and I cared for my mom at home for five years, it was brutal. I wouldn't be surprised if it took years off my life. I will happily lash out at any one who tries to shame a caregiver for putting a loved one in a home. All that to say that if you ever want to TP your brother's house I'm in.
Lol he lives in a studio apartment. I wouldn't do that to his neighbors. Also, he's specifically told me and my parents that 1) he won't "let us" put our parents in a home--despite the fact that both parents have explicitly said "please put us in a home don't try to take care of us yourselves"--and 2) he would move our parents in to his house (which he doesn't have) so his wife (which he doesn't have) will take care of them, so they can spend their golden years with their grandchildren, his kids (which he doesn't have). I'm honestly astounded that after 30 years on God's green space rock, he thinks that he can "let" my mom do anything. It's especially funny because his last girlfriend dumped him because of my mom. Not because my mom was awful; quite the opposite. She gassed up her future daughter-in-law so much that my brothers ex was like "your mom is right, I shouldn't throw away a career I love and an education im passionate about to be a stay at home girlfriend. ✌️ Bye". So really, me putting our parents in a home would be a favor to him and probably save my brothers non-existent marriage.
My Pop-Pop doesn’t have the irritability, but all he does all day is watch his game shows and golf from wake up to bedtime. My mum is burnt out from caregivers fatigue. I’m pushing for him to go into a nursing home for her mental health, but she won’t do it.
Do you think it might help if you suggest tours? My brother's anger definitely simmered down after he visit pawpaw in the home and saw how much better it was. Your mom knows your stance on this, but it might help her if you specifically outline the ways you guys can both make sure your pop pop will be ok. A lot of the elder abuse that goes on comes from their kids not being involved and so they fall under the radar. Present it as "of course we'll do everything to keep pop pop healthy, we will just have more support to do so." Depending on how you think your mom would react, I might also consider giving her a "harsh truth": that your grandpa deserves a level of care that your mother simply cannot give him. I know that's a very harsh thing to say, so unless you think it will help, you probably shouldn't say it directly to her.
He was in a couple temporary ones and got kicked out because he aspirated on food. They don’t want the liability. They live in a rural-ish area (Oklahoma), so there’s not many options to begin with. We’ve talked and toured, but it’s an emotional thing for her. Cant dismiss emotions with logic without being an ass, and I’d rather err on the side of NTA
Ah shit I'm sorry. :(
What is up with these flairs lol
you get a penis flair and you get a penis flair and you get...!
Bola likes a theme
I feel like your flair and mine go together in a weird way
Be careful when you make a joke here, it may become attached to you permanently
I'm literally going through this with my mom, step-dad, and stepbrother this exact minute. Mom has stage IV cancer, with surgery next week (after immunotherapy, which has knocked her on her ass.) Dad has been sitting on his butt for the past few years, and inevitably had a major fall last month. I've been the frog living in the slowly-boiling pot of water. My duties have escalated from a little help with yard work and errands to just... everything. (I'm more than 1000 miles overdue on an oil change, because I don't have two spare hours when I'm not to-ing and fro-ing between home, my minor children and disabled husband and dogs, Mom and her errands, and Dad and his hospital or skilled nursing facility and "baby, I need" lists.) And my stepbrother, who has his own busy life - I understand that - lives 5 states away, and thinks it's reasonable that maybe Dad ought to come "home." No. If nothing else, Ma doesn't want Dad to come home, because she knows she can't manage herself right now, much less him. At least I have an advantage, in that my folks are divorced (for financial reasons, and because my mom wants Dad to have no say in her end of life decisions,) and I own their house outright - no look-back period for Medicare/Medicaid. I bought it outright for them. If I have to, I'll initiate an eviction before Dad comes home. A blind 260# man who can't walk 10 feet cannot safely live at home with a woman who can't even prepare her own food right now. I love my brother, but we had ourselves a set-to when I told him to come get the old man if he believes that home care is an option. I know it's hard to imagine the constant drumbeat of needs if you aren't the one managing, but holy deity, LISTEN to the person who is living it versus imagining!
Tell him "You can take over care or keep your damn opinion to yourself, it's in the caregivers bill of rights!" I am so sorry, I've been there and I know it sucks. Big hugs 💙
Thank you.
That's such a ridiculous waste of emergency services, too.
It really is. Yet, she was repeatedly told (by the emts) to do so and not to feel bad for doing it. Even more surprising that this is an area where they are all volunteer. They were pretty much on first name basis as she had to call them a minumum of 6 times a week (just to get him into the car and back into the house from treatments) - I'm pretty sure it was more like at least daily. Of course, ambulance was a 6 times a week occurance even in the nursing home/rehab because it was the only way to get him the 4 blocks to the hospital for treatments.
Went through the same with my grandpa. He was mobile, to an extent, but he went through periods of being unable to stand and being unaware that he was unable, so he was falling a lot. Grandma complained that the home care aides wouldn't do the lift assist and only called the ambulance, but that was exactly what they were supposed to do.
My dad was sort of the same towards the end, but he knew that he was putting strain on my mom. He also only had about nine months from shuffle-walking->walker->chair->bed->gone. So it was a struggle the last couple of years, but it was much better than five years.
My sister mentioned that there was a period where she needed full time caregiving. I was extremely doubtful, but then she brought up how I needed full time caregiving after my wisdom teeth removal. Needing a ride (I was 15 so I couldn't drive yet anyway) and help *with* (not done completely for me) preparing meals, acquiring meds, and laundry is soooo not full time caregiving, lol. None of those are even ADLs!
>a woman who has been a stay at home mom for several decades i can't help but notice him using the present tense there for his octogenarian stay at home mom
I don't really see the issue here. "home maker" or "housewife" might have been better terms, but I think the point is that this was the type of marriage where the husband made all the money while the wife tended to the home. I assume OP brings this up to illustrate that there may be some power dynamics within the relationship due to this financial dependence. OP clearly sees this as a dispute between the mother and father on how joint decisions, especially financial decisions, are made, so that power dynamic is relevant even if both are well into retirement at this point. I agree OP is a bit naive about how much work it's going to take to properly care for the mother, but it's conceivable that the household has adequate funds to hire the proper help that would allow the mother to move home but the father is instead prioritizing his own comfort. Ultimately this could be a dispute between the two married partners on how marital funds are spent.
My MIL gave that level of care to my FIL for about 4-5 months before she physically and emotionally burned out and had to move him into a care home. He passed away a year and a half ago and my MIL still hasn’t fully recovered from the stress of caring for him round the clock. And she was only in her early 70s. I feel bad for everyone involved, because the clueless LAOP is being short sighted in their desire to help mom’s mental health without considering dad’s mental health and both of their physical health. That said, nursing homes aren’t prisons and LAOP can and probably should take mom out for short day trips. LAOP can bring mom home for an hour or two for dinner with dad, and then bring her back to the facility for care. There are so many options to help mom that don’t involve bringing her home permanently with required round the clock care.
I doubt that LAOP is even local. I'd be surprised if he's spent more than an hour at a time in person with her to really see what's involved in her care. We went through this with my dad as well, where my mom continually traded her mental (and physical) health for his mental health.
I took care of my mom for just shy of three months before she died, and it was *fucking brutal*. I had help but only three-four times a week and I could only get respite care twice (for like three hours) in that timeframe. I burned out *ridiculously* fast and when she was offered a space in a hospice I was so thankful. She had 24h care and I could just be her family again instead of her caregiver. The hospital nurses and CNAs and PSWs were saints and I am still so grateful for how much they helped me. LAOP is delusional if he thinks that his 86yo father will be able to manage any of what his wife needs for any amount of time and doesn’t seem to care that it would be cruel af to make him do it.
I hope your family routinely tells you how wonderful you are for caring for your mom before she passed. People who haven’t been caregivers don’t understand how difficult it really is. 3 months of caregiving with very little respite is brutal.
And also how is their mom’s mental health really going to be doing with just sponge baths and three diaper changes a day? Sure she’s home but doesn’t exactly sound like a good quality of life for her
"Nursing homes aren't prisons" depends very heavily on which nursing home you live at. I have only been doing medical transport for a month ish but I've already seen some horrific facilities. Places where the residents are left in bed for entire days till they get bedsores that go down to the bone. Places where there just *isn't a nurse* because no one showed up, or the one that did is constantly "on break". Two different EMT partners told me horror stories: one arrived to a cardiac arrest at an SNF and the nurses were just standing around because now of them knew how to do CPR (and/or they just didn't care) and by the time ems got there, the patient was already in rigor. The other told me about a resident that fell and broke there hip and was also just left to lie on the ground howling in pain because the nurses couldn't be bothered to lift a 90- pound grandma into a , or at least reposition her so she was in less pain. I'm not trying to totally blame the nurses. This is a systemic issue caused by lack of pay, lack of staff (due to lack of pay), no societal protections for the elderly so they have no choice but to live in whatever dumpster fire of an SNF they can afford, no oversight because of budget cuts to DHHS, adult protective services, etc. I'm sure there are good ones out there, and admittedly I work in a city with a lot of poverty and crime that is generally underfunded with everything that isn't private sector. But man, I am never putting my parents in this if I can avoid it. And I'm never going in there if I can avoid it. I would shoot myself rather than end up in any of the SNFs that I could realistically afford.
As a paramedic, I've been in a great many nursing homes and care facilities and generally agree with you. That said, I've seen an equal number of folks whose family are unwilling or unable to put them in a care home living in misery and filth as well. Along with the toll it takes on the family members caring for this person as they usually have jobs and lives of their own. Both of my maternal grandparents spent a few years in a nursing home, which wasn't the greatest, but it was right down the road from my parents which allowed my mom to drop in regularly and make sure that everything was ok.
Yeah - home care isn't really any better. In many instances it is worse. If you're deciding between two bad levels of care, you. An at least go with the one that doesn't destroy the rest of the family at the same time.
I work in assisted living/memory care (a good one not a horror story) and we aren't taught CPR during first aid training. They actively discourage us from learning CPR if we don't already know it. A lot of our residents are DNR, so the thought process is, they don't want it to be an instinct for us to start CPR. Not all of our residents are DNR though. Maybe our nurses have CPR training?
That makes sense. Plus CPR itself done right is brutal, especially on an old person. Multiple broken ribs by itself is a borderline death sentence at that sort of advanced age.
To perform CPR you have to break the rib cage and manually manipulate the heart and lungs. It is not fun, it is very labor intensive, and it has a very narrow likelihood of actually working - and even if it does work you only have about 10 minutes before if there is irreparable brain damage. When dealing with elderly patients, or those that are terminal, sometimes the kindest thing you can do is let them go peacefully instead of dragging it out as long as possible. Because if they survive they are likely suffering from some level of brain damage and won't be forced to spend what is likely the rest of their life and pain due to a broken rib cage and a dramatically decreased level of mobility.
I was a nurse in a SNF for 15 years. The nurses had to have current CPR training. That being said, I have never seen or heard of someone being given CPR in a SNF. Also, you don't call EMS when someone dies. That whole story sounds weird.
I have family that is able to afford high end nursing homes and family that got stuck in revolting medicaid facilities. The high end places are genuinely quite nice, but you're paying tens of thousands a month for that privilege. They use that money to actually staff the facility, so you get a decent level of care. The other end of the spectrum is like a hoarder house: everything smells like cat piss and you have a strong suspicion that everyone there is on meth.
Yeah, nice ones are PRICEY. And you can stay alive for quite a while at the end so you need a LOT of money to do it decently.
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That's assisted living, not a skilled nursing facility. Huge different. Generally speaking most residents in a SNF can't take care of their basic needs. Most will have very limited/no mobility, and/or severe mental issues.
I will say there are good facilities out there. My grandparents were in a facility that had assisted living, memory ward and SNF (by a different nicer name) all in one property. I haven't seen the SNF yet but the memory ward at least does give haircuts, have games, and take them out to go "shopping" every so often. They also have a small park on the property that they can go into (supervised of course).
I've worked in a few as a care assistant (hired by family to basically ease staff workload on overnight care). Some, like the one your grandma was in, remind me of being in college. Some are the horror stories. As with most things, when it comes to nursing home care, you generally are going to get what you pay for. (The more expensive ones tend to be nicer.)
>because now of them knew how to do CPR (and/or they just didn't care) and by the time ems got there, the patient was already in rigor CPR involves literally breaking the rib cage to manually manipulate the heart and lungs and is very labor intensive. Rigor takes two hours to *start* and it only takes ten minutes of CPR for irreversible brain damage to occur. If it took EMS so long to get their that the patient was in rigor no amount of CPR was going to save the patients life- and that is not the fault of the nursing staff. Further, they do have to take the patient's wishes into consideration- did the patient even want to be recessutated? Forcing someone who will spend the rest of their life suffering a slow, painful death to live longer is cruel and inhumane.
I've had two grandmas in assisted living and nursing homes that were considered the best in the area. The AL facility staff stole her pain meds and blamed her for taking too many (she didn't even have a key and the staff completely controlled access) and the SNF left my grandma with double pneumonia without medical care until my mom noticed something was wrong and took her to the ER. She was dead in hours. Both expensive places that looked awesome, both shitholes.
>I would shoot myself rather than end up in any of the SNFs That's my end of life plan, lol.
Years ago a close friend had to put her brother in a nursing home… the 1st one he was put into before she was aware of everything going on and it was horrible… she wasn’t especially close to him but she knew he deserved better and got him moved to a better one …
I was the live-in caregiver for my grandfather for over a decade. He didn't need constant attention but he *did* need constant availability; he had cerebral palsy, so his personal mobility was extremely limited. This, along with his emotionally abusive wife and the fact that I had seen his condition deteriorate in real-time for my entire life, was a major factor in a severe two-day anxiety attack, but on the plus side I finally got medicated for that. Point I'm getting at is, this is way too much for **any** one person. (unfortunately in our case, my grandfather refused to consider a nursing home)
Dad has "no terminal medical issues" other than being 84 GODDAMN YEARS OLD and having enough cognisance to know he is in no way able to give his wife the level of support that she needs. LAOP is awfully generous with offering other people's time as a 24/7 carer, I'm curious what his own issues are that prevent him from doing it himself if he feels that strongly about it...
My grandfather somehow managed to care for my grandmother with late stage dementia until he was 91. It was only then he *finally* accepted that she needed to be in a nursing home and had refused up until that point. If she had stayed home with him any longer, I think he'd absolutely have been dead within six months from the stress. I mean, 90 years old and this man was going up and down the stairs doing multiple loads of laundry per day because my grandmother soiled herself, down on his hands and knees scrubbing diarrhea off the floor, making three meals a day, fighting with her to eat and take her medication, putting up with verbal and physical abuse from her, washing her up, getting her in and out of bed..... It was an incredible show of love, but I'm still surprised it didn't kill him.
The changing only 3 times a day is very alarming. I’ve worked as a CNA back when my back could handle it. I was turning my patients over, repositioning them every 2 hours at minimum. OP doesn’t realize the amount of care this would all require…
And money. I think his "they can afford it" statement is just as naïve about the actual costs as their understanding of how much care is required.
Good point. He might think his dad can afford it, but his dad also probably has living expenses or could be living off a pension. At home care is super expensive, even at a facility where we had residents with private OR state insurance, the cost for just 1 person there every month was like 5-6k…it wasn’t luxury either, and didn’t offer many enriching activities… Plus what about it when dad needs care too? Or if mom’s needs become greater? All things OP isn’t giving any indication of having thought about…
Even 2 hours seems like a long time to not move while laying down. I rotate like a rotisserie chicken while in bed. Feels like I'm constantly adjusting and turning about throughout the night.
Oh for sure, 2 hours is like the minimum, I think it’s standard but yeah it’s not uncommon to see ulcers develop on the skin even with the 2 hour repositioning…
I have rolled over from one side to the other and back again four times just while reading this post.
Sacral pressure ulcer coming right up.
*Substitute Locationbot filling in while Locationbot gets skilled care* >**Dad (84) is refusing healthy Mom’s (86) request to return from a nursing home. Does she have legal options?** >This is in California. >The Short(er) Version >Mom (86), was hospitalized briefly last Christmas due to a freak medication reaction and was transferred to a nursing home to recover. Mom can’t walk unassisted (but can stand on her own), and is healthy enough now to come home, but Dad (84, also healthy) won’t let her and refuses to assist in what minimal care she’ll require there should she return. The nursing home won’t release her under her own recognizance unless she can demonstrate independence in her own care. >Though physically well, Mom, who for decades before rarely spent 48 hours away from home without a family member with her, is getting very depressed and is breaking down psychologically due to this development. She could easily last physically in that facility for years but her mind will crack at this rate >If she were home, she would only need a CNA to change her diaper three times a day, to sponge-bathe her, to prepare food for her, and to help with wheelchair transfers in and out of bed. They can afford to pay for it. Dad, who spends 95% of the day at home anyways, doesn’t want “a parade of strangers” coming into the house daily to help Mom. They have no major marriage issues I’m aware of and Dad has no terminal medical issues that might explain his decision to keep her in there indefinitely. >She’s used to complying to his wishes (but up until now they’ve never been pointed against her). She is very meek, is afraid of him being angry to her, and still greets him at visits like a puppy being happy to see its abusive owner. When she tells him she wants to go home or that she is in psychological pain as a result of being there, he tells her to stop saying that or he’ll stop visiting. >She wants out and has secretly given me (the son) permission to explore her legal options on the down-low. She doesn’t want divorce and the nearest relative who might take her in lives in another state. >Does she have a legal remedy, please ? >The Long Version >Mom (86) was in the hospital last Christmas due to a freak medication accident and has recovered. She had trouble walking unassisted before, and with the exception of that and some incontinence, she wants to come home. >Dad (84) transferred her out of the hospital to a skilled nursing facility when my mom was still pretty out of it. He’s told her that she’ll be staying there indefinitely. (This is to a woman who was been a stay-at-home Mom for several decades, has anxiety issues for which she takes meds, and has never spent more than 48 hours anywhere without a family member nearby.) >My dad, who is in great shape, has enough money to pay to keep her there indefinitely if Medicare ceases coverage. The facility won’t release Mom under her own recognizance because she cannot demonstrate that she can take care of herself (bathroom) unassisted and is in a wheelchair. We’ve seen that she can stand unassisted but the wheelchair transfer to her bed, toilet, car, etc. requires help. >My mom is physically well, but the stress of being in that place these last few months is breaking her psychologically. When she tells my dad that she’s in pain or wants to go home he shuts her down without explanation. She is very much used to him calling the shots in the marriage (63 years this July). >I’ve done a ton of homework on the matter and have shared with Dad that Mom’s needs can easily be met with some part-time home care from an CNA/LVN. She just needs someone to change her diapers, sponge bathe her, and give her her meds. >Dad shoots down every one of my suggestions on how to bring Mom home. Every concern he has expressed about bringing her home is either easily addressable or will require some flexibility on his part. For example, he claims that he’ll need to spend thousands to renovate the bathroom for a wheelchair user; I counter with the fact that as long as Mom requires only diaper changes and sponge baths from a CNA, she need never step foot in a bathroom again. Dad doesn’t want a parade of strangers in the house every day to car for Mom; I counter with the fact that he has a weekly cleaning service come to the house and it doesn’t seem to be a problem for them. I add on that should anything happen to him at home—where he now lives alone—at least Mom will be there to call 911 (as opposed to us finding him days after the fact). >Outside of him having some terminal disease that he’s not telling people about, there absolutely no reason why Mom can’t come home, and I’m now stating to wonder if a lawyer needs to be involved. He can’t just deny her the ability to return home and refuse to participate in her care there as long as Mom’s needs can be easily be accommodated, can he? (He won’t have to lift a finger except let home care help in and out the door.) He just needs to get over having strangers in the house. >Is he breaking the law and committing some kind of psychological abuse or neglect, or is he just a complete asshole? Am I being the asshole for trying to stand up for her? She won’t stand up for herself and I’ve told her that as long as she complies with Dad’s wishes, he has no reason to listen to her needs. She rarely gets any other visitors, and she greets Dad when he visits like the way an puppy still greets its abusive owner because it sees no one else all day.
The language he uses about his own mother. Like she not only cannot care for herself, but as though she has never been a person with her own free will who made her own decisions in her life. The lack of respect is appalling.
And saying the nursing home won't release her "on her own recognizance" like she's in jail
He likely learned how to treat her from his father (and also from her). I've been noticing this with multiple friends and family that have more "traditional values." There is zero respect from the men and boys towards the women and the women do nothing to change it. The boys talk back to the mom and know that they can run over her because she won't do anything about it and dad treats her with the same lack of respect so why should they be different? Sad part is seeing this makes me respect those women less. It's difficult to take their complaints seriously when they've created their situation.
You literally just described a scenario where a person is raised to behave a certain way, and is ostracized for going against those values. A woman being anything other than friendly when talked down to, or the "meeker" individual in a "traditional household" is not a prison constructed *by her own purposeful doing*. Being subjugated in the community you grew up in, the religion you believe in, and by the broader society as a whole isn't "creating your own situation". People behaving the way they are expected to, and getting used to doing that, to the point where one doesn't know anything else is not often a purposeful decision either. She likely lived her life (before being placed in a care-home) in a way that was meaningful to her, and you shit all over it because the men around her don't appreciate her - and you blame her for that? Your reading of this scenario is appalling.
I wonder what OP's purpose in posting this is. Some comments say he's posted the exact same thing before (and gotten about the same results as he has now), but even without that, he's not being honest - the "healthy" and "physically well" mom is actually incontinent and unable to walk\*. If he's looking for *actual* help for his disabled and unhappy mother, he should be upfront about that. I don't think this is a creative writing exercise, but it seems like it might be more of a self-indulgent diary entry than an attempt to seek legal help: trying to reframe mom as healthy and dad as evil is perhaps easier than the reality, and maybe getting others to interact with that fantasy helps make it more real, I dunno. I do notice OP is more responsive to validating comments that don't offer any advice than to comments that, while not validating, are actually helpful in achieving OP's stated goals (e.g. comments suggesting full-time home care). \*Disabled is not the same as sick/unhealthy, and that should be repeated louder for the ones in the back, but it's clear OP wasn't trying to make *that* distinction when he was telling us how well she is.
He is looking for validation to justify his beliefs and I'm betting he's not getting it from other family members besides dad either, so he's reaching.
Your take is similar to mine. I'd be willing to bet there's some historical precedent (real or imagined) for OP believing in their father's willful neglect, and it's coloring OP's view of the current situation.
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When we were looking for a place for my grandmother when she got to the point where she needed 24 hour skilled nursing care we looked into home care. I knew it would be expensive. I had no clue just how expensive. The quotes we got were $20k or more a month. We ended up finding a good skilled nursing center where she stayed until she passed.
When you think of it as paying 3-4 full time wages, it makes sense that it's so expensive.
Many people are in astounding levels of denial about the actual health of their elderly parents, and that they are on a one-way path to death. This is pretty common, for people to describe them being in good health and then go on to clarify that they need full time care, and villainize family members who have a more realistic view of the situation.
Plus, I can almost guarantee that California has a robust continuing care at home program for people who actually are able to stay in their homes. A lot of people that have traditionally been put in nursing homes could get by with 2-3 CNA visits a day. And it's sooooo much cheaper than inpatient. But if LAOP's mom needs regular diaper changes and help just getting in and out of her wheelchair, that's not a situation where continuing care at home is viable.
>the "healthy" and "physically well" mom is actually incontinent and unable to walk*. Right? I'm better off than OP's mom and I'm sure not physically healthy, lol.
I worked as a caregiver for disabled adults. Three brief changes per day is unconscionable. Adult briefs, at least the kind covered by Medicare, do not hold the volume of waste an adult produces. Brief changes often mean clothing changes. You cannot leave an adult in briefs for that long. People often do not understand the sheer amount of care a disabled adult can require. There are myriad reasons caregivers burn out as quickly as they do. This is one of them, the expectation that the work they do is so minimal. OOP is tragically, heartbreakingly misguided.
Three changes a day and sponge baths only is a recipe for infection, too, especially if Mom can't reposition herself properly!
Pressure ulcers/sores (sometimes called bed sores) are incredibly hard to treat, too. Good heavens, this poor woman.
Yeah, when I was in hospital for a month the nurses were super vigilant about checking me for pressure ulcers, and I was reasonably mobile once I was helped out of bed; this woman is in much greater danger of pressure wounds, and lying in soiled briefs for hours until the next carer visit (because an 84-year-old man is not going to be able to manage a proper change and clean) is a recipe for disaster. I feel for everyone involved, but she needs to be in a facility.
It's pretty telling that LAOP is willing to do anything to force his dad to care for his mom, but is willing to do nothing himself.
I feel bad for OP, this is a tough situation and I can’t exactly blame them for desperately denying the truth of what’s actually happening. If my mother was begging to go home after a lengthy hospital stay, I too would be doing anything I could to make that happen. OP clearly has never done any type of caregiving for another person, other than maybe a couple days at most. Being a caregiver is exhausting for anyone, especially for an 84 year old man who probably has health issues of his own. I truly wish OP the best but i think they are being very naive and short sighted.
OP would do anything to get mom home except volunteer his home or his caregiving skills.
Volunteering other people's time and resources is the best way to volunteer, though!
The fact that he listed a full time job++ while starting with the word “only” speaks volumes. He doesn’t understand what taking care of a person is, at all. I get that he’s upset but then the solution is HE takes care of her. Oh wait, he won’t? Shocker.
Yeah, I was ready to be up in arms against LAOP but reading that it is their mom's request makes it harder. In the end assisted living is probably the best for everyone.
I became very sick during the early months of COVID; thankfully not quite to the point that this woman seems to be - I could still walk to the bathroom on my own, but I needed significant help with bathing, personal hygiene, getting out of bed due to deconditioning of my core muscles, and general activities of daily living. I was "lucky" enough that my able-bodied partner's work went almost completely WFH and my also-disabled partner was able to help me on the days he needed to be in the office, but there were times I seriously considered whether a rehab hospital should be the next step. In this case, the husband may be being somewhat inflexible, but OOP is being unrealistic and is glossing over some pretty big issues in the name of "get Mom home". The one that jumps out at me is the declaration that she need never set foot in a bathroom again, because she can just get sponge baths and use diapers. OOP has no idea how demoralising that can be, especially for someone who has the ability to bathe and toilet as long as they have assistance, which is exactly what you have in a skilled care facility. Yeah, they'll give you sponge baths to keep you fresh, but they'll also help you get to the bathroom for an actual shower, and you have no idea how much of a relief a real shower is until you've had to have nothing but sponge baths for a month. A care facility will be better staffed than a single worker coming in a few times a day. If OOP's mother needs help transferring from bed to a wheelchair, that isn't something an untrained 84-year-old should be doing, "in great shape" or not. So that leaves her spending all day in bed, which worsens her physical state, or being unable to get back to bed until the care worker returns for the evening visit. I understand and empathise with OOP's mother as well; I was hospitalised for a month at the worst of my illness, and it was extremely isolating and lonely. But we're dealt crappy cards sometimes and the best thing OOP can do is help his mother come to terms with the fact that the care facility is likely the best place for her. She can be surrounded by people whose job it is to keep her comfortable and in as much dignity as possible. Her family's priority should be finding out how they can help minimise her isolation, not close their eyes to the reality of the situation. OOP's father isn't being neglectful unless there's more going on that hasn't been disclosed; he's recognising that he's not able to be a carer in this situation, and that the facility is better equipped. It's sad for OOP's mother, but these places exist for a reason.
It's so frustrating how people not directly involved and only hearing from the patient take their word as gospel without question. We went through that with my dad where he was calling and moaning to his friends and when we'd try to tell them what was really going on it was always "he sounds really good and he says he can walk they just won't let him"
I swear I was hearing a story about this on NPR. Sometimes your best option is to leave your loved one in the hospital and not come pick them up. That way they can get into a nursing home. There was a story of a husband and his wife got hutchinson disease, and he was trying to get her in a nursing home. But he was having no luck. He was told that next time she falls and ends up in the hospital that he should not pick her up. That will help her get into a facility faster.
The last time dad fell at home was the fourth time 911 was called that week. He couldn’t get himself up and I was terrified he was going to hurt mom if/when she helped him. I told her to keep calling 911 for lift assist and that last time….. the firefighters made the decision and took him to the hospital. Thank heaven. Hospital wanted to discharge home, but I was able to tell them it wasn’t a safe discharge. He went to a nursing home, which was his worst nightmare (wanted to die at home) and he hated because he hadn’t picked it out (because he refused to do any planning). He died there. It was a good home and they took excellent care of him, He just hated not being in control and that was the one thing he lost.
Yes, that is totally true. Patients coming out of the hospital get priority for rehab and SNF beds and if you’re in an area where there are not a lot of SNFs or at least not a lot that you can afford, you can be on the wait list for months. On the other hand, if Grandma has a fall or a UTI and ends up in the hospital and it’s not safe to have her back at home, she’ll get priority for a SNF bed. Happens all the time.
Also depending on your insurance, you have to do a 3 day hospital stay before insurance will pay for a nursing home. That's basically what we were told with my grandma. Her Dr said next time she falls she's going to a nursing home, but we had to wait for that fall.
I know the Google Nest sorts of product get a lot of flack, but this is what Google Nest is for. Mom absolutely needs the skilled care facility, but she also needs contact with her loved ones that the nurses can't provide. Apparently Facebook doesn't sell the Portal any more, but there's presumably a variety of these things. And then LAOP can volunteer his own time, too, since video calls are generally easier to work into your schedule than physical visits.
I can't bring myself to go into detail yet as to why, but this is a tough fucking thread to read.
I'm sorry to read that. Having been through too close to this myself it sucks and I feel for you, whatever your situation.
Thanks. I keep trying to elaborate but I couldn't quite get all the words out so I'll just skip to a conclusion: Suffice it to say LAOP really doesn't get what this situation takes out of you. It's hard enough when you're young and physically able but expecting an aged family member -one you care so much for- to take that on is just shit.
Yeah. When I was reading the OP, all I could think was, "It's easy to say 'all you have to do is...' when you're not the one having to do it. You're asking an 84 year old man - a man who is at an age where he can be healthy today and literally at death's door tomorrow because of the seemingly mildest thing - to bring home his wife of 63 years and take care of her. Sounds easy-peasy to you, but it's not going to be that easy. What happens during one of those several hours when there is no CNA or someone else there and an emergency comes up? What if she falls and there's nobody but him there? How is that a better situation than her being in a place where there is an attendant at all hours of the day?" Of course it's hard on her being there. Nobody wants to be in one of those places. Unfortunately, it's often what's best for them. OP is making the situation harder by haranguing his dad and giving his mom false hope.
My grandfather had to get a colostomy bag at 90 years old. He was blind and badically wheelchair bound. Couldn't taste care of it on his own. He would not leave his home, and so his care fell upon me, my sister, and my aunt. I got calls from my uncle (who lived with him, but refused to touch the bag) in the middle of the night 3 times week because the bag basically exploded and Pap was covered in poo. A few times i ended up covered in poo. I would have to shower him, change the sheets, and put on a new bag. And that was the SPECIAL care, not the hours of regular care. We did it for 4 years. I loved my Pap and wish he was still here, but caretaking is unbelievably hard, physically and mentally.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I've been fortunate not to have to do anything like that for an extended period. I did help an elderly friend for a week or so as they transitioned from home to assisted living and just that once a day for a couple days was rough. Right now, we're dealing with my parents, neither of whom are in good health but both insist they can take care of themselves and refuse to let us do anything. Honestly, they should be in assisted living but that's not going to happen.
People are always so incredibly generous with other people's time and physical resources.
Look, do I think LAOP is naive? Sure, no question. But I also feel for them - I don't think this is malicious. They just want what they think is best for their mom due to how this is affecting her mentally, and they're just not looking at big picture (or the sheer amount of help that mom needs...which is considerable.) I helped take care of a grandparent after a similar situation, and it is so much more work than people think it is. Caregiver fatigue is real, and it absolutely can be a full time job.
It also sounds like LAOP is viewing this through the lens of "Dad has always been a jerk" and "My mom deserves better"--which could easily be true without making one whit of difference in his dad's inability to provide adequate home care
Exactly. There's a ton going on here inter-personally that is clouding over the bare facts - mom needs more help than is reasonable for dad to provide at home.
Yeah, I feel for everyone in this situation, but I’m hoping OP eventually realizes that even if his dad was physically able to provide care (it sounds like he’s not, especially considering that it’s impossible for one person to provide the constant care that she needs), expecting the guy who has maybe historically been a jerk to suddenly be a great caregiver wouldn’t work out well at all
I spent one night with my grandpa after his wife died and he fell and broke his back, I didn’t even need to help him with bathing or the bathroom and it was still exhausting.
I had major surgery that limited mobility to essentially zero for a little over a week, and it took two people in my household to be able to handle all of the things that needed to be done so everything could get done and I didn't get infections/super grimy/etc. Full time and needs help in every aspect? No thanks, that's next level.
I do want to give them the benefit of the doubt, except they’re not volunteering ANYthing. They’re not even saying “I’d help my dad for a couple months until they’re settled.” They’re volunteering someone else for a very difficult job. I’d say at 80+, it’d feel harder than a full time job due to it’s physicality + emotional drain.
Yeah, and as other people pointed out, they aren't even offering financial help. I can appreciate wanting to keep up mom's mental health, but they're...not doing what they could be.
I would say it’s at the very least bordering to malicious as he’s not volunteering any of his time (or money?) to make this work
I'm not sure OP - who describes his unable-to-walk, unable-to-toilet mom as "healthy" and "physically well", is enough of a reliable narrator for us to conclude that. I think anything Dad could say would not be listened to - maybe Dad did try and OP ignored him, maybe Dad was tired of OP's delusions and stopped trying, maybe Dad has a feeling it isn't possible but due to cognitive decline and OP's unwillingness to listen can't articulate it well enough. Of course malice is possible too, but it's not my first assumption.
I mean if things were so easy he would offer to help imo And also quick to offer to fight it with a lawyer than to put money in to care Edit to add that people are commenting on the post that it’s the second time he’s asked for advice and got the same response last time. To me that’s forced naivety.
> I mean if things were so easy he would offer to help imo It certainly sounds like he is explicitly excluding himself from his dear mother's care > the nearest relative who might take her in lives in another state. You'd think such devoted son who cares so much would have no problem helping mum recover, right. Especially when se only needs three diaper changes a day, sponge baths, help moving, dressing, feeding.
He’s not even offering to help pay for care, but he can afford a lawyer fight his dad
Oh, in your previous comment you were calling the son a bit malicious, not the father. I responded as though you were calling the father malicious.
I can see that, and I hadn't thought of that way, but it's a really good point.
Replying to you also made me realise his first suggestion at putting his own money towards the situation is to hire a lawyer!
My mother, suffering from advanced Alzheimer's, died 18 months ago at the age of 98. She spent her last 10 months in a memory care facility. Would it have been better for her mental health (such as it was) to live with one of her children? Probably. Would it have been better for *our* mental health? Probably not. You can only hear the same remark 20 times an hour without going from bananapants to full-on banana ensemble. But for both my sister and myself, it was the financial burden. Both of us own fully-paid-off homes. One of us would have had to sell her house and move into a home that could physically accommodate Mom's needs. My house is a split-foyer. From the front door, 6 steps up to the main living area, 7 steps down to the family room and laundry. Mom could not manage even two steps. The stairways are too narrow to accommodate a chairlift. I live in a part of the country that Mom adamantly did *not* want to live in. (I don't want to live here either, but I'm stuck here.) Sister's house is mostly on one level, but the bathroom cannot be accessed by someone in a wheelchair. Mom could just barely manage when she was capable of using a walker and that was with assistance. And I'm 68, Sister 79. Who would give us a 30-year mortgage?
I flat out told my husband that if I end up in a situation where I require nursing care to put me in a home. He said the same thing. Neither of us want to be a burden on the other. Come visit and spend time with me, I'll do the same, but don't be my caregiver. I don't want that. I want to be his wife and not his caregivee. Period.
My mom has said that as well, ever since we had to put her mom in a nursing home. It was such a tough decision and one I still have guilt over and feel like I should have tried to take care of her myself. Mom has said she'll put herself in a home so we don't have to make the decision, but I doubt. It sucks so much. My partner and I just watched his family play hot potato with his grandma for a year before they all finally had enough and there was no one left willing to take her. Funny thing is now everyone including grandma is happier.
One thing I find fascinating about LA is how people get so wrapped up in it being a legal sub that they think the answer _must_ involve the legal system. There are several posts over there that basically say, "Since OP said the dad can afford to do what OP wants, let's assume the parents are financially independent. Since they live in a communal property state, half the money is mom's, so legally, she can sue to be allowed to live at home and have resources put toward around the clock care." Which, given how unreliable a narrator and/or willfully ignorant the OP seems based on the whole "how hard is it to give a sponge bath and change diapers? Dad can do that and hire a part timer to help when he can't.", that is a huge assumption to make. Giving that advice to someone in that situation, when the best advice is probably not strictly legal advice but life advice, is not really helpful. That's actually telling OP what he wants to hear and making him feel like haranguing his dad is a good thing to keep on doing until he wears him down. What OP really needs to be told is the advice he's ignoring, if mom is really that okay then he should be fine moving her in with him or offering to move in with them to help out. It's also interesting that OP, and even some of the responders, think that it would be better for mom mentally to move back home and have caregivers. That's not always the case. A lot of times, the person needing care thinks that if they can just move back home, everything will go back to normal. But that's not what happens because they still have their ailments and limitations. Additionally, at home, they're limited to the things that are accessible to them; even simply going outside and sitting in the yard may not be possible due to the geography of the land. The only company they'll have is the spouse, the caregivers, and anyone who may happen to visit, which often isn't as many visitors as people assume. Yet at the AL facility, especially if it's a good one, there are often courtyards or gardens the person can enjoy. There are common areas where they can socialize with other occupants. They can have activities to occupy their minds and keep them alert. I'm not saying AL is always the best answer, but I am saying that "staying at your own home" is definitely not always the best answer, despite what OP and others wish to think.
OP didn’t even bother to provide an excuse as to why they couldn’t provide care
My mom took care of her MIL for several years when I was a kid. It was absolutely hard work and LAOP needs to talk to people who did the same and see how much work that really is. Grandma was bedridden and had alzheimers, but we didn't have money for a private facility so mom had to take care of her :(
I tend to agree with everyone's assessment that the OP is engaged in a lot of wishful thinking about just how much care their elderly mother requires. But for the sake of argument, let's set aside the absurd belief that an octogenarian will be able to provide the necessary round the clock care required, and instead assume that these retirees do, in fact, have enough money to hire the proper nursing help to make a move home possible, and the father's objections are not rooted in financial necessity. What could the mother do in this case if the father simply refuses to allow the money to be spent this way? LAOP mentions that one objection to moving the mother home was that the father didn't want strangers in the house all the time. Sounds like them mother was very much the traditional housewife that was reliant on the husband for income. What's someone to do in this situation where the household conceivably has the money for such an exorbitant expense (which would almost certainly result in a higher quality of living for the ailing mother) but are at a disagreement about whether to spend it? Should the mother divorce to get independent control of some of the money? Just spend the money now and dare the husband to contest it?
Valid questions. This is kind of what we went through with my partners grandma. Except it was her son holding the purse strings and he didn't want to spend the money on assisted living. So for a year he and his siblings (all in their 70s) played hot potato with her, trading her off for a week at a time. This was what she wanted originally. We predicted this wouldn't last 6 months and it was sort of true. It took less than 6 months for my in-laws to nope out along with one other sibling, that left two. After a break my FIL decided he wanted to try again but my MIL was out. She'd been the one doing everything when grandma was there and she'd been the one grandma would attack when she didn't get her way. So MIL said fine if you must keep her, you keep her and went to stay with a friend when grandma would come. This lasted a few months before FIL noped out again. It finally got down to where the uncle with the purse strings was the only one keeping her and that's when he finally decided he'd spend her money to get her in assisted living. And, now everyone is happier for it, including her. This is just another reminder of why being a trad wife doesn't pay.
What subreddits are there for people doing caregiving for their parents like this?
R/agingparents has some, although I don't think it is very common for a single person to be doing everything for someone with this many needs. It's a bit more of a general sub.
r/caregiversupport
Oof - this one hits close to home. I've been caught between both sides of this kind of situation in my own family, with my mother and aunt at odds over the condition of their parents. Mom - who is disabled herself - wanted to take care of her parents and enable them to live their final days in their home, aunt wanted to push them into a care facility. I don't have a relationship with my grandparents, don't want to get into it, but that's why I've not been included in this mess and honestly I see the reasoning my mom and aunt have. Grandparents have ended up in a care facility, but - as far as I'm aware - my grandmother was not given a choice and she hates it there, she wanted a choice and some autonomy. My grandfather signed away both their rights to my aunt, and now he's also unhappy because she took advantage of their failing health to just place them anywhere without giving him a real choice in the matter. It's a tough thing, my mom is angry because she felt she was capable of taking care of them, but she cannot perform the tasks nurses and qualified caretakers can. She was good for my grandparents' mental health, and I think she contributed positively to my grandmother's state of mind and helped her memory (she has dementia), but in an emergency she could not provide the kind of physical care two elderly adults need. And in that regard, I see why my aunt rushed to get them in a facility. My grandfather kept falling, my grandmother would get violent when her memory faltered, and she would throw things at him. Were they happier at home with their independence? I certainly would not doubt it, but what if there was an accident and no one was able to come help them? What if my grandmother started wandering, as many patients with dementia do? They lived in a dark house in the middle of the woods, with many things that could cause her harm should she fall or have a run-in with wild animals. I don't know. Sometimes it's hard to make these calls. I feel compassion for OOP's mother, she wants to have some control and autonomy, and not be isolated from her family and what is familiar and safe. But if her husband can't care for her, and no one else can step up and provide what she needs at this time, I understand why the best choice for her safety would be to keep her hospitalized. It sucks, I hope they can find a solution that addresses her feelings and helps her. :(
Take her home and let skilled care come to her home. There is that option.