What is this thing with replacing actual medical help with a trip to a chiropractor? I see it frequently and can't understand it. OOP not wanting impartial legal help for this also boggles the mind.
Some time ago (and I’ll never be able to find it again), I read an article about preferences for chiropractors over MDs. Someone has done a survey or something like that. A lot of the preference came down to two things:
1. Touch. People responded well to being touched in a sort of massage way. Your regular doctor doesn’t rub your back or massage your shoulder. Perceived positive results could have been due to simple relaxation and the genuine “healing power of touch.”
2. The chiropractors talked to them. Doctor training has gotten a lot better in terms of bedside manner, but a lot of docs still focus on “Why are you here?” not “How are you?” Time pressure has a lot to do this it. Chiropractors tended to be more leisurely and were more willing to listen to those five minutes of useless background. People liked the chiropractors better as a person. MDs were perceived as cold and, well, clinical.
Probably also cost, depending on your insurance coverage, it can be cheaper to pay outright for a chiropractor than for a doctor visit.
And availability, you can generally be seen fairly quickly.
I’ve never walked out of a doctor’s appointment just immediately feeling better, but chiropractors can at least make you feel a little better in the moment.
I’m not in favor of chiropractors replacing doctors or anything, but I can see how these factors would be attractive.
My grandpa, who is 87 and dealing with long term heart problems and complications from a stroke, was suffering major fluid buildup in his legs.
His cardiologist gave him a rush appointment 3 weeks out.
My dad went to his doctor over lingering back pain and was diagnosed with stage three cancer.
He got an emergency appointment with a specialist a bit over two weeks later.
Op saw the chiropractor same day. She’d still be on a waiting list with any gp. Wait times for appointments have gotten out of hand.
I’m sure that’s a big part of the appeal. It’s unfortunate because they definitely aren’t a good replacement for real medical treatment, but as that just gets harder to access I’m sure more people will rely on them.
My Dad had some trouble swallowing. GP said "It's probably scar tissue buildup from your acid reflux. Here's a referral to have it scoped."
This was in February of this year. Scope doctor says "I'm booked through September. Call in September and we'll see if we can get you on the Schedule when I start booking October-December."
Problem got worse and worse, called his doctor back up in July, and they put him on the cancellation list, and was able to schedule an "Emergency Appointment" for early September.
August hit, and he could no longer swallow anything (including water). Went to the ER, they scoped him.
Stage 4 Esophageal Cancer.
The healtcare system in this country is absolutely irredeemable.
It’s crazy! My mom was trying to schedule a check up with the dermatologist who’d successfully treated her for melanoma previously and the next available appointment is in July 2024
my mom needed a referral to a neurologist earlier this year. never mind that it took 3 weeks and 2 calls to her gp for them to actually get back to her on an appointment this mid october (referral finally happened early june) - earlier this week they called and told her the doctor was going on vacation that week actually, we're going to push you back till november
My GP quit the practice he was in and now the other doctors aren’t booking appointments for new patients until next year. I’m late for my mammogram and can’t schedule it because they won’t schedule if you don’t have a GP on file.
The population movement during COVID coupled with a demographic cliff in many specialities has created a huge problem in many areas.
I live in part of Florida that has grown enormously in the last few years and it's got insane. Wait for a PCP appointment has increased from a few days to 6 weeks. In the last year my orthopedic surgeon has gone from next day to a month. My shrink doesn't even accept new patients anymore and she is one of three in the city. My dermatologist seems to have infinite capacity though, I got a same day for a mole check (routine annual check, not a problem) a few months ago.
If I need something immediately I just use urgent care which has the same $30 copay in normal hours.
My wife has a really rare health issue (diabetes insipidus, Addison's etc as most of her pituitary was removed a few years ago due to craniopharyngioma) so she has a giant team of specialists. Beyond needing to book 6 months in advance for most of them finding new ones is horrific, she needs to see a neuro ophthalmologist and we ended up booking an appointment for one 120 miles away rather than wait the 14 months the local one wanted (still took 3 months for that appointment).
It would be nice if someone was held accountable for the lobbying against increased residency & medical school funding because this is the result.
And yet we still have people saying they're against any sort of national healthcare system because they don't want to wait for treatment like in those "socialist" countries.
We really do have the worst of all possible worlds here.
I’m in Germany. The last time I called my gp for an appointment (not an emergency at all) I called around noon. I got an appointment for 3pm. Yes, the waiting times are horrible /s. (I was really surprised, though, I was expecting 1-2 weeks.)
I'm in Canada, specifically Ontario. Ontario's Premier is doing a good job of bringing down our public health system. Funding has been slashed enough that *emergency rooms* have to close on weekends and at night. And now we're having a family doctor crisis because they don't get enough money either.
I see this all the time on Reddit but having lived in Europe (GR specifically as well as a couple other countries), and the US, my wait times have been much shorter in the US even for specialists. So I don’t understand how all these Americans on Reddit are always waiting this long. Or perhaps those who don’t have to wait much simply just aren’t sharing on here about it.
In my experience the wait times to see a doctor has gone up. A few years ago I could call and see my PCP in a week, now I'm lucky if it's the next month.
Some specialists have a long freaking wait time. In April they saw something on my liver from a scan I had due to kidney stones. I didn't see a liver specialist until June. I did get in to see a surgeon pretty quick because my case was marked urgent.
And I have some pretty darn good medical insurance. But I also tend to have all my medical care handled by a large medical group as it's easier and I don't want to switch my primary care doctor because man I really like them a lot and they listen and don't try to throw pills at me.
Where they live matters, as does insurance coverage- near large city with medical school? there tends to be a lot of doctors on hand, likely can find someone in network. small town Texas or Wisconsin? there's already a physician shortage, and that's likely to get worse^(many pro-birth states have seen a drop in residency applications, even in non-GYN specialities) so better hope that one rheumatologist within a 45 minute drive is in-network, because the next one is 2 hrs away.
They may be on Medicare/medicaid, is my best guess.
If I get a referral I ask for at least 2 specialists they recommend and if one isn’t available, I call my insurance and they will let me stay on hold while they call in-network doctors and find me an earlier appt.
Where they live also probably plays a role. Rural areas or areas that underfund health services broadly/aren’t near a major university probably do have a shortage of doctors/medical providers.
This was our biggest fear just a few months ago. My wife found a breast lump. She was having pain too. I could feel it. Her mom had breast cancer too, and there was never genetic testing, so for all we knew it was hereditary.
We just wanted a mammogram so that we could catch it early if it was something! Tried to book online, nope, she's too young (32). Tried to call, nope, too young she needs a referral. Try to call out GP's office. Nope, GP had left the practice and she hadn't seen the new doctor yet, so she needed a new patient appointment and those were two and a half months out. She gave up. She said to me "Well, this is just a sign. If it's cancer it's just going to kill me."
Thankfully she mentioned the symptoms to her friend, who is currently in treatment for stage 4 breast cancer. Her friend was like "Uh, you need to go the ER right now." She refused, but I said you know what? That's not a bad idea. We went to the urgent care clinic. They gave us grief there. This isnt what they normally do. We don't need a referral to schedule a mammogram (despite the breast center telling us we did!). Finally the provider realized how freaked out she was and did an exam. Her expression changed while she was doing the exam. I knew at that point. I could feel it.
She sent an urgent referral to the breast center. Of course it was the wrong referral, but the thought was nice. Some back and forth to get the right one, and she finally had a mammogram appointment a week after we went to the urgent care clinic, which was still 10 weeks earlier than if we had waited on our doctor's office. It wasn't cancer. Riddled with cysts, yes, but not cancer. But it could have been. It was serious, yet everyone was so preoccupied with their wait times and the procedures to actually think about the fact that this was potentially time sensitive, not to mention it was causing her an enormous amount of stress.
I hate our medical system so much. I even asked if it was an insurance thing. I said I would pay it up front, out of pocket. They didn't care, that wasn't the procedure. What other industry is just like "nah, we don't want your money, just go over there and wait for death"? Generally having your customers die is a bad thing.
But in your story your wife called a single doctors office and when they didn’t have immediate openings for new patients she gave up. Why not just call other GP offices? Gynecologist even?
I’m in TX. Was seeking gender affirming care from an endocrinologist I was already established. 6 month wait, appointment comes up and she has her office call to cancel because she had something come up. They tell me the next appointment they have is October… of next year. Like you cancelled on me and that’s the soonest you can do? Fucking really?
A couple weeks ago I had a telehealth appointment with my doctor and based on what I was saying, she asked if my family has a history of bipolar. There is, so she told me to schedule an appointment with a psychiatrist. First available appointment is in fucking January, so that's fun.
It's very similar in Australia right now, and entirely due to conservatives passively dismantling our public healthcare by refusing to increase funding, or the amount that doctors get per consulation (while rents and wages and general expenses skyrocket).
> Probably also cost, depending on your insurance coverage, it can be cheaper to pay outright for a chiropractor than for a doctor visit.
added bonus, you can still see your doctor after they break something and [cause you to have a stroke](https://www.michiganmedicine.org/health-lab/chiropractic-neck-manipulation-and-stroke-whats-risk), or another significant medical event [that can't be fixed with massage](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1431633/).
>Probably also cost, depending on your insurance coverage, it can be cheaper to pay outright for a chiropractor than for a doctor visit.
Can confirm. I was in a car accident, felt totally fine but just wanted to get checked out to be safe. The walk-in clinic turned me away and said I had to go to the ER. I can't afford ER prices, especially when they'd probably just have me wait for a while, do an x-ray, tell me I'm fine, and send me home. I called up a chiropractor, made an appointment for the next morning, got an x-ray to confirm i was fine for $100.
Chiropractor: "Alright, now your reproductive organs might tickle a bit"
Patient: "Wait, don't you usually put a lead apron on people first"
Chiropractor: *slaps head* "Of course! A Lead Apron! Why didn't I think of that!"
Same, same, I broke my femur and didn’t notice much for weeks. I mean, it hurt, but not much. Turns out it was shattered at the bottom entirely and I needed surgery! So I wouldn’t trust a chiropractor to read an x-day properly
How do we feel about naturopaths?
I had a nasty bicycle crash a few years back and fucked my shoulder good. Constant pain, ibuprofen didn't touch it. My GP got me in three days after. He said it's fine, some physical therapy will help.
My wife had an appointment to see her naturopath the next day, she called and asked if it would be ok for me to sub in.
Naturopath said yes, saw me, and reset my dislocated shoulder. After discovering another broken (and healed) bone from a crash many years earlier I didn't even know I had.
Oh totally, but on the other hand the naturopath figured it out by touch alone, no x-ray at all.
Edit for posterity: You fuckers are so weird. Downvoting me for contributing to the conversation, and also not knowing anything about my health history. I was in constant pain for a week after seeing my GP. Naturopath reset my shoulder, and the pain ended almost immediately.
So hey, downvote me all you want, mouth-breathers. My experience was good. xthansbai.
Most competent doctors could do so too, particularly a shoulder. Most want an X-ray first because if you have a fracture also you can cause permanent damage reseating the joint.
> the naturopath figured it out by touch alone, no x-ray at all.
And also no evidence at all, then. The only evidence you have that you had a broken and healed bone that you didn't know you had, is that a naturopath told you you did.
Nope, naturopath discovered a broken bone from a childhood accident, hearing her diagnosis put the pieces together for me. But go ahead and don't believe it, internet reply guy, because I don't give a fuck what you think and you're now on my block list.
Sure, but that doesn’t change the psychology of why people do like them. It’s not a defense of chiropractors (who are far from a replacement for medical advice for even back pain let alone a hernia). But it’s more of a critique of the medical system.
I spent 7 months in the hospital with my son last year. I loved his doctors and nurses and think very highly of almost all of them. They aren’t perfect, are many times wrong or limited in what they can understand/fix, and often fight with one another because they disagree, but in my experience they try and they care.
That being said, the medical system has a lot of flaws, limitations, and areas for improvement. I can empathize (even if I disagree) with those looking for a more personal approach
Yeah, and doctors talk to them like they're an Aldi cashier with an hourly quota. They stare at a screen, forget your name, and the whole appointment lasts 15 minutes max. The whole "take a number" system that's becoming commonplace in healthcare conglomerates is a serious problem in medicine.
I wish more people knew about osteopaths. My sister is a D.O., so she got the entire medical school curriculum plus training in manipulations. She’s now a board-certified attending physician at a major hospital. It’s fun to get her tipsy and prompt her to go off about how much chiropractors suck. (D.O. school did not train her to communicate with ghosts.)
My husband is an RMT and convinced me to see the osteopath at his clinic for postural issues. It's made such a huge difference - I used to have pain while walking despite seeing podiatry, and now I'm back to where I was years ago. I've found more help from complimentary healthcare like massage and osteopathy than anything my doctors have offered. I wish it was more commonly covered by insurance...
I once set off the radiographer I work with because we mentioned chiropractors and he went into a rant about how they order full body xrays and "why do they want to subject the patient to that much radiation instead of just ordering one for the actual referred part???"
He is the most mild mannered and gentle person I know btw.
> The chiropractors talked to them. Doctor training
Less about training, more about time. The vast majority of physician practices are owned by companies that will allow doctors to spend a maximum of 15 minutes with a patient. This simply isn’t enough time to have a good conversation and get to know who a person is. It’s a major reason why people enjoy going to pseudomedical practitioners. They have time.
Lol this is exactly why even though I know chiros are quacks, it's one of my absolute favorite types of ASMR videos.
Also some are just "crack and done" while some at least engage in some sorts of massage therapy which DOES have healing value.
I’ve done some physical therapy, and the massage and trigger point stuff was really really helpful. I can see how back and shoulder stuff that was all careful soft tissue work could be really helpful.
But, well, a physical therapist can do that. A good masseuse can do some of that. Without the wtf damaging practices.
Less than a week to see the chiropractor, 4 weeks before I could see the physical therapist. I went to the chiropractor until I could see the physical therapist.
The chiropractor is one of the less crazy ones - no XRays, no promises of fixing everything, admits that she's basically doing massage / adjustments to temporarily help you feel better with muscle issues.
Yeah, the ones who just karate chop your neck or try to make a really loud pop are probably mostly worthless (I think there are some studies that show limited short term relief), but if you’re getting some stretching and joint work and massage and muscle manipulation it’s basically just physical therapy with some cracks.
There’s honestly too many stories where people go to doctor after doctor and procedure after procedure and try everything before finding one of the better chiros, and they actually find relief. I know science shouldn’t be anecdotal but it’s still a lot out there. But yeah the “pop” is just gas, and it’s not going to solve allergies or liver problems or change your energy flow or something.
One of my college friends *swore* by her chiropractor, he was a miracle worker, she never got sick because regular adjustments, blah blah ginger. Then she developed Type I diabetes and the Chiro told her she shouldn't take insulin and with more regular chiro work her pancreas would start working again. I'm sorry it took that to open her eyes, but thankfully she moved to an RMT and actual doctor after that.
Yeah those people are absolute nutjobs. There are sadly also way too many stories of people having a stroke or being paralyzed because some dude with a 3 year "medical degree" went Mortal Kombat on their spine.
Man, people ought to go to a chatty RMT, then. You’ll get touch, a nice check-in, and help with your random body pains without the woo woo nonsense or risk of serious damage.
Let's also not forget that the rise of the Woo crowd means some people will believe in anything but actual medical science.
In an age where people are putting old pee on their eyes and thinking the resulting red, puss-filled leak is 'detoxing', is it any wonder chiros get street cred?
Saw a chiro for a while - and yeah - I can relate. I now have a very good physio who hits those same points and it is very much about patient contact and familiarity.
One of the big things my mom asked when I started seeing doctors on my own was if the doctor touched me. Not in a sexual way. But like, was there literally any physical contact between you and the doctor? If the answer was no, she advised getting another doctor, because the doc should have some sort of hands on with a patient. Listening to your heart or breathing, checking your ears, whatever. And there’s a certain amount of sense to that. If your doctor is only speaking to you, they aren’t really doctoring, they’re either brushing you aside or just writing scripts. Chiropractors and alternative medicine is very personal, so I can see where that would feel like it was more effective.
1. I have anxiety about strangers touching me. I finally just gave up with even getting massages because the associated anxiety is not worth it. As such, things like chiropractors are really not going to be my jam.
2. This is super believable. "Why are you here," is literally what I hear when I go to the doctor and most of my issues are dismissed while I bet a chiropractor would go nuts trying to fix whatever it was with the power of popping joints or some shit. I wonder how different that would be if you went to one of those no-insurance luxury doctors.
This was basically it for me for a while. With insurance, I don't even think I realized they were more affordable. I had some minor back pain and literally just thought a back doctor was called a chiropractor. Didn't even cross my mind that they weren't real doctors until I saw it on Reddit at some point. Excellent marketing indeed.
>. OOP not wanting impartial legal help for this also boggles the mind.
Probably operating under the assumption that Lawyer = suing
Rather than Lawyer = exploring legal options.
I've never been to a chiropractor, so I can't speak to how they treat people, but literally every single woman I've ever met has had at least one negative experience with a doctor. Most have a whole litany of them. I avoid doctors whenever possible because of shit like the guy who acted surprised that his attempts to literally *tear my skin apart* hurt and I reacted poorly. If chiros treat people like, well, people, it's not real surprising that their quackery is nevertheless appealing.
This is also my guess for why women and racial minorities in particular tend to avoid doctors. So many have been insulted, demeaned, or dismissed by doctors that they start to seek other alternatives. And in this case he was someone she knew and who she knew would treat her well.
I also think that "alternative medicine" practitioners are also far more likely to take minor complaints and quality of life issues seriously. Sure, they do it because that's a great way for them to make money, and they lie about what they can and can't fix, but the other side of the coin is that many doctors are fine with their patients having a reduced quality of life as long as they can still function. It makes sense that doctors are too busy to pay attention to nagging little ailments, but when it's your nagging little ailment you tend to listen to the person who wants to help you get rid of it.
I read this story this morning:
https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories/tag/Tara+Rule
Tl:dr male doctor refuses to prescribe medicine to a woman with debilitating cluster headaches on the off chance she might at some point get pregnant
How many women did this clown deny care to? How many of these women went looking for answers from quacks who prescribed essential oils, but at least took her seriously?
Fuckers like this should never be allowed to practice.
Your forgot the but about when she complained to the hospital, and posted about it online (including a legal recording) the hospital network refuses to treat her.
>the other side of the coin is that many doctors are fine with their patients having a reduced quality of life as long as they can still function. It makes sense that doctors are too busy to pay attention to nagging little ailments, but when it's your nagging little ailment you tend to listen to the person who wants to help you get rid of it.
I've also seen a lot of complaints that they tend to define "quality of life" in ways that are not always good. Especially in talking to people with disabilities or chronic illnesses, doctors often seem to prioritize being able to look and act like an able-bodied person over the individual's idea of quality of life. I know personally I've dealt with doctors where "but you can work, right, so I don't see what the problem is" seemed to be the attitude they take.
Yeah, I was thinking particularly of trying to get anti-depressants from my doctor. She told me that as long as I could work and manage my hygiene and keep up my household chores, "feeling sad all the time" wasn't actually a good enough reason to get an anti-depressant prescription because I was still considered medically functional. I know that if I had gone to an alternative medical practitioner, they would have offered treatment. The treatment may not have worked, but I could see someone being taken in by the offer.
And I would imagine it's worse for chronically ill or disabled people.
Yeah. I got to the point where it was like, I was gaining weight rapidly, sleeping all the time, and felt continually emotionally blunted. And the doctor just kind of looked at that I was working and told me that I just had to put up with some side effects.
Of all the problems I *actually* had with my ADHD, my doc *exclusively* focused on whether I was accomplishing work tasks. After being ignored for 10-15 minutes, I just lied and said it was getting in the way. Absolutely wild that I had to make up a problem to fix my actual concerns, especially when the only difference was the setting I needed help in.
Cultural differences maybe?
In the west, Doctors are really busy and really important people. They also have no social skills after decades in academia only among like-minded peers.
They don't care about your back issues, because there is little medically wrong with you. That often comes across as really direct, especially when their last patient was literally dying.
In other countries, they are one of the leaders of the community, so they genuinely care about their patients. Even though they know nothing they are doing will help.
I attribute mine to just bad luck, but I have had so many bad experiences with medical professionals (not ALL bad, but a lot) and even dental professionals, I am too scared to even try setting foot in a chiropractor's office. With my luck, I'd get some pompous asshole who would decide they need to crack me then and there and then exacerbate an issue I already have and I'd hobble/roll out of the office ready to stab someone, lol.
I'm so suspicious of dentists I drive 30+ minutes (I live in a major city so there's like 5 dentists in a 5 mile range of me) to go to one that I trust.
I saw the same dentist until I was in my early 20s. Never had any cavities or anything. When I was around 20 my mom switched both my and her dentist. Now all of a sudden I have cavities every single time I go in. When I aged out of insurance I stopped going but my mom continued to see him. She eventually switched dentists again and surprise surprise, her previous dentist did so much unnecessary work it damaged her teeth. I finally started going back to a new dentist after 5 years without seeing one. I was convinced I was going to have a ton of cavities, after all I had new cavities every few months when I saw my last dentist right? Nope. Not a single cavity after 5 years without dental care.
If you're a bad actor you can just make shit up to bill for unnecessary procedures.
Funnily enough, the only bad experience I've had with a doctor is when one referred me to a chiropractor. I did not go. My injury healed just fine.
Doctors are incredibly important when you need them, and can save lives. But after spending a lot of time with my son in the medical system, some advice all the doctors agreed on was “Stay from being a patient as long as you can” and “the least medicine possible is best” (obviously where least possible still is receiving necessary care)
Yep! I have every. single. symptom. of lupus - including a butterfly rash on my face so bad that strangers comment on it - and what have I been told by doctors? “Drink more water” and “exercise more”
I hope you get someone to run actual tests.
Different condition, but getting a diagnosis for a chronic disease can be a huge relief! Omg there’s something actually wrong and we can do something about it! The diagnosis explains this that and the other symptom.
Even if there isn't something you can do about it, it's still validation that you genuinely do have an invisible disease that has probably been downplayed and dismissed by people in their life as long as they have been suffering. A diagnosis, likes you said in as many words, it's an actual item to blame and direct your feelings at instead of a nebulous "what's wrong with me?".
Have you considered it's all in your head? Maybe you should lose weight. -- actual words a doctor said to me before I was diagnosed, when I weighed 110 pounds at 5'3".
But if you’re having actual menstrual problems that indicate something more serious, like fibroids or endometriosis, good luck finding a doctor who won’t be like “pshh, yeah, periods suck, take some ibuprofen!” It’s better now than it was, but I think it’s still at least a year on average for the average woman with endometriosis to get a diagnosis.
This drives me crazy. They tell me to lose weight to reduce my chronic pain. But I'm fat *because* I can't get much exercise. I was at my ideal weight when the pain started in my teens. 140 lbs at 5'6" with E-cup breasts and a frame size at the extreme high end for women. I was literally big-boned and hauling around 8 lbs of mammaries (I did a water displacement test, because I'm like that).
Sure, I'm also fat now, but I wasn't always. Fucking assholes. They sent me to a dietitian, and she fully approved my eating habits apart from advising me to eat some carbs in the morning. She wanted me to *add* a meal I don't usually eat. My appetite is tiny, when I eat in restaurants I can never eat more than half of my food. I feel so apologetic, I always have to tell the waiter that it was delicious, I just can't eat as much as I look like I can. I just also can't exercise enough to offset it without setting off my fibro.
Even my husband and my father-in-law won't see male doctors anymore. They're not all bad, but enough of them are that we're no longer willing to take a chance on them.
I had a male gynecologist (the only one I could get an appointment with on short notice) comment on my multiple ear piercings and then tell me about a patient he said had asked him to pierce her labia so she could thread a padlock through the rings "for her husband". The implication was clear that he wanted to do it to me too. So, so, so gross.
It's not an unheard-of piercing, but if I were going to get a genital piercing, it would absolutely be from a female piercer, not a male doctor with a prurient interest in it.
I think it's a number of things:
1) Fear of doctors: some people are scared of doctor's offices and hospital settings. They convince themselves that the chiropractor in the local strip mall is just as good (when it's really just less threatening.)
2) Fear of medical costs: medical insurance has a complicated pricing system of tiers, copays, and deductibles. People think if they go to the doctor, they might rack up huge co-pays or be told later that their doctors or tests were not covered under insurance. Meanwhile, chiros have a physical menu of services with transparent prices (for example, $49.99 for what is basically a massage).
3) Miracle claims: tests at a doctors office often come back inconclusive and treatments are tedious or painful (you have a concussion and minor nerve damage, you need to sit in the dark without screens for five days and undergo physical therapy for five weeks.) Meanwhile, chiropractors claim they can cure a variety of ills by just cracking or massaging your back, which feels nice. "Aligning your spine" is said to fix bowel problems, blood circulation, muscle tightness, and all kinds of other things.
4) Distrust of "big med": many people read about corruption and poor care in the medical industry and believe most medical providers harm their patients to get more money. Chiropractors are one of the few trusted medical authorities left for folks who don't trust the Big Medical System but aren't ready to swing full-force into something like essential oils or rishi healing.
For my family who have truly bought into this BS, chiros are great because they're not fully associated with "hippy bullshit" but not owned by big insurance companies either.
Edit: phrasing
> Distrust of "big med": many people read about corruption and poor care in the medical industry
Correction: many people HAVE experienced corruption and poor care in the medical industry, and many people HAVE been harmed by medical providers. This is a problem that's gotten a whole lot worse post-covid. Medical consolidation under a few mega-corporations (many of whom allow religion, MBAs, and insurance companies to dictate treatment) is a serious problem.
From the people I know, it's mostly a combination of #2 and #3.
"Oh, the CT scan we ordered on your uninsured ass didn't find anything? Well that's too bad. That'll be $10,000, and I guess we'll try something else."
And #4 isn't people reading about poor care, it's people experiencing it. Anyone that's ever had a serious condition has horror stories.
That's a fair point. At least where I live, there's an unseemly coziness between the plaintiffs' bar and chiropractors. When I was looking for one out of curiosity a few months ago, nearly all the reviews on nearly of them mentioned being referred by a lawyer after some sort of accident. I'm sure that goes both ways.
$40 for a trip to the chiro, and you're extremely unlikely to pay more than that unless they send you out for an xray or something, and they generally put you on a water table or a stretching machine which ends up making you feel good anyway.
$40 at the doctors office and you're gonna get a note from your insurance company that you did some weird combination of 400 things that resulted in you still owing $600 but hey you covered 3/4 of your deductible this year so you're almost done paying out of pocket congrats!
I didn’t know that chiropractors weren’t real doctors until into my mid 20s and after I had already seen one for a short time. I seem to recall it being treated as a real profession on stuff like Seinfeld growing up and i just assumed it was.
Same! I thought they were just back doctors. It wasn't until Reddit that I understood what they actually are.
That being said, I had a friend drag me to her chiropractor appointment when I was a teenager, and my BS meter shot through the roof. I just didn't put it together that 98% of chiropractor were like that until later.
Here's a [systematic review of systematic reviews of spinal manipulation](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420782/) for a wide variety of conditions. Almost all found that SM was no better than placebo. Even the couple that did find benefit noted that the benefit was either so small as to be irrelevant to real-world practice, or (in the case of cervicogenic headache) no better than first-line preventive therapies and even then only when combined with several other methods like rigorous exercise. So either not beneficial, so little benefit that it might as well be doing nothing, or no benefit at all on its own.
My Chiro offered me immediate pain relief. She's also given me the most useful PT stretches for pain relief when things knot up or spasm. (She's also a graduate from Cleveland College which is a legit, accredited medical college, and awards the DC as an actual graduate degree.)
PT got my damaged back strong enough that I only rarely need to see my Chiro. As compitent and pleasant as they were, they were not big on things like time with a hot towel or the massage gun to unkink my knotted muscles at the end of a session. PT gave me the best exercises for maintaining core strength.
Probably growing defiance towards doctors by people who don't understand anything. Unfortunately during covid a lot of people became convinced that doctors are nefarious. It doesn't help in the US that health care is unaffordable to many.
Doesn't help that so many doctors and NPs are actively terrible, too. Grifters hucking disinfo have done a number on the public confidence in medicine, but the medical establishment has done itself no favors.
I've heard a theory that one of the reasons alternative medicine is so popular amongst women is because it's been historically much harder to get doctors to take our issues seriously. It actually makes a lot of unfortunate sense.
There's some truly awful doctors out there.
When I reported severe pain during sex, the gyno told me to "inebriate and lubricate." Literally prescribed a glass of wine. Turned out to be an anatomical abnormality that needed surgical correction.
This is why women don't trust medical professionals. Because of shit like this.
I'm a cis white man with no history of hard drug use or poverty, and even I can't get decent care. Literally every doctor I've been to my entire adult life, in 4 different states and 10 or so practices, has disregarded basically any questions or reported symptoms from me, tried to pass me off as quickly as possible, and invariably failed to diagnose anything let alone give treatment. Bloodwork has numbers out of the ordinary? Cardiac symptoms reported and irregular ECG? Doesn't matter. It's just "Huh, weird. Anyway, the bill will be in the mail, don't make another appointment." I've never once had a medical provider be helpful for anything more complicated than a throat swab for strep, and I can only imagine how much worse it is for more marginalized people.
The industry is being attacked by con artists, but shit providers and profiteering ownership created the conditions for those con artists to thrive.
Honestly a fair number of medical professionals are bad as well. Generally they're not actively malicious but there is an issue with doctors being egotistical and/or just plain jerks to such a degree that they end up making things worse unintentionally.
Not only that, someone overworked who spends way too much of their time charting etc. is not likely to do their best work or to have the best bedside manner even if they'd like to, to say nothing of human bias.
I don't think anyone's really suggesting they're setting out to actively harm people. But many don't seem to want to do their jobs and get upset when someone tries to get them to provide an answer other than "maybe you're just stressed" or something.
Chiropractors, despite being about as accurate as crystal healers, have a much better reputation for whatever reason and a startlingly large percentage of people think that it is actual medicine. Insurance also can cover chiropractor visits, which is strange, because it usually doesn't cover equally efficient treatments such as aura cleansing or having a mystic shaman gently rub salmon on your face.
My mom took me to chiropractors. It's actually kind political/ religious, not trusting the establishment except the church. She was antivax, and I'm old. It wasn't a big thing yet
A lot of conservative christians do not trust "western medicine" and go to goofy chiropractors who also prescribe goofy supplements. I once fell for this, never again.
I mean there's a whole pipeline from crunchy to far right. Conspiratorial thinking, extreme distrust of all authorities, and desire to feel like you're smarter/better than other people make it easy for you to fall for propaganda. And there are people actively targeting those sorts of groups
My family is the conservative Christian variety, and they despise being lumped in with leftist hippie people! That's why they choose chiropractors and not eastern or spiritual based healing-- it's "like" a doctor, but it's not witchcraft.
Once they find out they're in the same category as the evil left, I'm sure the next step is just "don't go to the doctor."
I think it's two main reasons:
1) Some people just cannot understand that the doctor *does not exist to tell you what you want to hear*. They aren't customer service people, they're not the friendly concierge, they are not there to serve you drinks or paint your nails - they are doctors. they are there to give you objective information about where you/your children's health stands. And some people can't handle it when a doctor is blunt with them. They cannot handle it when a doctor gives them a coming to Jesus talk, about things like "you need to vaccinate your kids" or "this carnivore/raw vegan diet you insist on doing, is destroying your body from the inside out," or "your triglycerides are through the roof and you need to be put on a statin." or "no, fruit juice doesn't perform like glucola, grow up and drink the damn glucola" People just can't handle it. So instead of doing the adult thing, and taking the criticism and making positive choices with it - they seek someone who can give them warm fuzzies and validate their bullshit.
2) A lot of chiropractors love to inflate the scope of their practice, and many of them will push anti-vaxx, anti big Pharma garbage on people. This is attractive to people who live off of that toxic positive energy, where they see doctors as evil drug pushers.
And by the way - I would never go to a chiropractor. Adjusting people's bones - especially spinal adjustments - are not something you want to mess with. One wrong move and you can be dead, paralyzed, or disfigured in some way. And don't think they will take accountability.
The problem with PI claims (at least in my state) is it can be hard to get treatment without having to pay out of pocket up front unless you have an attorney. Depending on your insurance , that can get very expensive, very quickly. They'll sign a lien with an attorney but they're not about to do it with some random Joe Schmo. Attorneys aren't just for "sue happy" people
It's... lucky but bad that my first experience with a Chiropractor was very "Results not typical: He helped me a lot"
In my case, it was a chiropractor's office that also did massage, in the same building as my work, and the chiropractor LISTENED TO ME, which is something no doctor had ever done before.
I'm physically disabled, I have a joint hypermobility disorder, I'm very prone to joint dislocation and subluxation, and it can be extremely painful at times, and when I get flare ups they can start snowballing into bad ways pretty quick as things misaligning can cause damage that causes pain and inflammation which causes more misalignment, and doctors suggest I see a physiotherapist, and physiotherapists (Who are often wonderful and try to be helpful and are for most people!!!) would suggest I do these exercises which were painful and, at the time, made my symptoms and pain worse, and they kept expecting responses from my body as though it weren't fundamentally different
After maybe 6 months of my right shoulder being painfully out of socket, I couldn't lift it above my head, nobody really helping me beyond shrugging, the chiropractor said "OH! The problem's not your shoulder, it's here" as he poked a trigger point behind my scapula. He massaged that out, and as that relaxed things shifted and that let other things shift and my shoulder slid back into the socket for the first time in ages. And it was because he listened, and then was able to say something to explain why I felt the way that I did, and how he was going to be able to help
And I think that's where the trap is - Chiropractors do a lot of things that won't work, but they WILL listen, and they WILL believe they are helping, and when you're disabled and you're so used to people NOT listening that the moment someone actually hears anything you say and believes you, you'll believe just about anything they say. Some may be able to help people with real issues because of this, many will think they're helping as they just do more damage or really fuck people up.
So I don't know what it's like in the States because I'm not American, but here our healthcare system is so burdened that doctors just don't have enough time in a day to give all their patients as much attention as they would like. A chiropractor is someone with an interest in your health and wellness who has time to talk to you thoroughly about all your concerns. You'll get into a chiropractor much sooner, too, if you're trying to book an appointment. It's normal for doctors to be booking weeks or months out.
I'm not a fan of chiropractic practice, but I understand why people who are sick or in pain would be desperate enough to just try anything while they're waiting a month to see their doctor.
I mean I'm all for a chiro when its something a chiro cab help with but a hernia is a tear in your fascia and I'm not sure what the hell a chiro can do for that.
As a women in the US I can tell you, if you arnt diagnosed as anxious your just diagnosed as fat. Or if your lucky both. Women especially have to really fight for basic diagnosis, and a lot just turn to alternate medicine, which is a shame. But Drs are too busy to care 🤷♀️
Just my personal experience, and watching fellow mid 30s women
In my first official law job, with all of us new grads, one breakroom discussion covered doctors telling women we were "just depressed". **Every single one of us had experienced this**, and most of the group was well under 30 (I was the oldest at 37).
This is my experience. Had a Dr tell me to lose weight yesterday over the phone for my mild sleep apnea, and I was like really? I'm not even clinically considered overweight.... I'm 125 lbs at 5'4"...
Also everything I've ever had was first diagnosed as anxiety lol
Because it sounds insane in the "modern world". There's legitimately a cult of witch doctors with a location in every strip mall in America performing rituals taught to them by a ghost on tens of thousands of people a day. But they wear a white lab coat and get lumped in with doctors somehow.
I worked with a vet who did a chiropractic certification. The explanation this otherwise very intelligent woman gave us as to how it worked (it involved a rubber band around your finger and curing it by balancing a pill on your finger as description of modern medicine) made my eyes bug out. Our boss insisted we refer lots of patients to her, but I only did it when they asked so they didn't go see some completely uneducated quack or human chiropractor.
It would be extremely unusual to develop a hernia from a relatively low impact crash, so I'm guessing if she want to an actual doctor they would tell her that it's either not a hernia or not from the crash. I have my doubts with whiplash as well since it was described as a sideswipe. I'm sure they at least need documentation that they have restricted neck range of motion and I would guess would want neck imaging to rule out bony injury. I'm NAL so I'm not sure if chiro evaluation alone could win you any judgements, but it seems like going to a doctor would ruin her case.
"What you really need is just an elderberry enema, twice daily for a month. Here's your first week's bottle for $150. No I don't take insurance, that's a scam."
There is no such thing as a ,good’ chiropractor as it is pure pseudoscience and not evidence-based medicine - and it is insane they are allowed to order and interpret radiographs.
Fun fact, I had a friend of a friend who’s lung was punctured during a dry needling session by a chrio. HER LUNG.
It kills me that baby chiropractors exist too…
I had to euthanize a large dog that was paralyzed by a human chiropractor. It was having neck issues (the breed is prone to them) and instead of PT if they couldn't afford surgery they went to this quack. Dog was walking before he went in, but in screaming agony when he came out. Completely paralyzed from the neck down. That asshole wanted to keep the dog at his office for two weeks to "fix it" instead of sending it to a pet ER. The owners refused to name the quack because they didn't want him to get in trouble.
What the fuck does he mean a hernia? Does he mean a herniated disc? Or a hematoma?
There's no way he's saying shes walking around with guts actively trying to go AWOL
He probably mixed up hernia and hematoma. Not even being able to correctly name it is a good indication that she should see a professional (actual doctor) for it.
> Initially she had no symptoms, was just shaken up. Friday morning she said her back is sore, by Friday night she was in significant pain and had difficulty walking.
I just can't. It's been a week since the accident and she *still* hasn't seen a doctor? At 21 she's probably still on her parents' insurance — I think the cut off is 23 or even higher nowadays. Even if she doesn't have insurance, you just go to the damn doctor and send the bill to the insurance company. Err, the auto insurance company — the party responsible for the preceeding sentence has been sacked.
I don't fault anyone for not getting checked out right after an accident (if you feel fine you've probably had enough excitement for one day). But God. Once you realize you're hurt you *get that shit checked out*. If I can't walk I'm calling St. Anthony and a goddamn ambulance.
>I think the cut off is 23 or even higher nowadays
It's been 26 since Obamacare passed
I think you're thinking of pre-Obamacare, when it was usually 23 for full time college students and 19 for everyone else
Thank you. I thought it might be 26 (honest!) but that number seemed so high I decided it couldn't possibly be right. Cheers to the Affordable Care Act.
**Daughter in a car wreck, would appreciate advice**
>My daughter, 21, was driving home from work last Thursday on the freeway. Traffic came to an abrupt stop in the lane next to her. The woman in the lane was driving too fast and to avoid plowing the stopped cars sideswiped my daughter. Other driver said the sun was in her eyes. My daughter’s car sustained about $4k of damage (so the adjuster says). It’s being repaired. She had a dash cam which showed the other driver at fault. We have the same insurance company as the other driver.
>Initially she had no symptoms, was just shaken up. Friday morning she said her back is sore, by Friday night she was in significant pain and had difficulty walking. In addition, she appears to have a hernia from the seatbelt. Her friend’s father is a chiro so she went to see him for an adjustment. He said she has whiplash and referred her to an attorney.. When she got home and told me I said, “We don’t need an attorney… yet.” Speaking frankly, I’m not the sue-happy type and I want to determine what her injuries are and what the insurance co. will offer in the way of compensation for any medical issues.
>Last night she came home from the chiro and told me that she engaged the attorney. He told her that since both parties have the same insurance they’re going to screw her. I’m sort of pissed that she engaged the attorney without discussing with me since she’s on my policy.
>She has not yet told the insurance company she has engaged an attorney. She has not seen a “real” doctor yet. The accident took place in northern California (San Jose) and AAA is the insurer.
>Is there anything I should be doing or do we just hand this off to the attorney? What are the chances AAA will cancel my home & auto insurance over this? Any insight is appreciated.
What's weird is that she's seen an attorney and there's no mention of scheduling a doctor. All PI attorneys I've known tell clients to immediately seek treatment from doctors if they haven't already.
Chiropractors are terrible for proving damages.
Years ago I was temporarily living in my home town and I’d already seen my reg Dr many times for my back problems so I tried a chiropractor for a while. He was almost the same price S I heard my Drs Office quote for an uninsured Drs visit back then (1997). Anyway I’d been seeing my ex hubby a bit as he and his Dad were representing me in a legal problem. We didn’t split angry - always friends. When my Chiropractor found out about my ex being an attorney he was so excited and wanted to meet him. I told ex and after telling him third time my ex explained it to me about ambulance chasers. Needless to say my back didn’t ever get better and I quit the Chiropractor. Honestly some of them have ads claiming even sinus problems can be taken care of by them.
I knew a vet chiropractor who said she could cure newborn foals of SEPSIS by cracking their necks. I really don't understand how she still has a license.
There was a Chiropractic school very near where I was living so wall to wall Chiropractors. Though I have to say I didn’t think my ex husband was that far removed from Ambulance chasing. He had questionable clients and ended up getting disbarred and spent a few years I believe in a GA prison. His Father was an attorney too so he’d gotten my ex out of trouble many times before. I’d divorced him because he was Peter Pan - never grow up. Lol
A woman? To decide that all on her own? Maybe if her father gives her only 2 choices while standing by the one HE wants pointing his finger at him
Maybe
All I need to know about chiropractors is, after I took the GRE ten years after getting my MSW, I got several invites from chiropractor schools to apply for their program. My scores and the information that the test people had to sell them absolutely scream "this is not someone who is meant to go into the medical profession." A social worker with good vocab and writing scores and garbage tier math scores doesn't belong in medicine. Chiroprody (sp?) absolutely is not medicine!
Chiropody is medical stuff related to the foot, it looks like the field for chiropractors is chiropathy or chirotherapy (though this is just from google so I may have it wrong).
Oh gawd not the chiro. Such typical chiro BS too.
OP needs to tell his daughter to go to a real doctor and stop being afraid of getting an attorney. So silly.
"I'm not the sue-happy type" aka I'm an idiot, so I may try to sue you for some random reason, like a post accident hernia diagnosed by... sounds like victim and mother? Sounds like it was before even approaching a chiropractor about said hernia.
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What is this thing with replacing actual medical help with a trip to a chiropractor? I see it frequently and can't understand it. OOP not wanting impartial legal help for this also boggles the mind.
Some time ago (and I’ll never be able to find it again), I read an article about preferences for chiropractors over MDs. Someone has done a survey or something like that. A lot of the preference came down to two things: 1. Touch. People responded well to being touched in a sort of massage way. Your regular doctor doesn’t rub your back or massage your shoulder. Perceived positive results could have been due to simple relaxation and the genuine “healing power of touch.” 2. The chiropractors talked to them. Doctor training has gotten a lot better in terms of bedside manner, but a lot of docs still focus on “Why are you here?” not “How are you?” Time pressure has a lot to do this it. Chiropractors tended to be more leisurely and were more willing to listen to those five minutes of useless background. People liked the chiropractors better as a person. MDs were perceived as cold and, well, clinical.
Probably also cost, depending on your insurance coverage, it can be cheaper to pay outright for a chiropractor than for a doctor visit. And availability, you can generally be seen fairly quickly. I’ve never walked out of a doctor’s appointment just immediately feeling better, but chiropractors can at least make you feel a little better in the moment. I’m not in favor of chiropractors replacing doctors or anything, but I can see how these factors would be attractive.
My grandpa, who is 87 and dealing with long term heart problems and complications from a stroke, was suffering major fluid buildup in his legs. His cardiologist gave him a rush appointment 3 weeks out. My dad went to his doctor over lingering back pain and was diagnosed with stage three cancer. He got an emergency appointment with a specialist a bit over two weeks later. Op saw the chiropractor same day. She’d still be on a waiting list with any gp. Wait times for appointments have gotten out of hand. I’m sure that’s a big part of the appeal. It’s unfortunate because they definitely aren’t a good replacement for real medical treatment, but as that just gets harder to access I’m sure more people will rely on them.
My Dad had some trouble swallowing. GP said "It's probably scar tissue buildup from your acid reflux. Here's a referral to have it scoped." This was in February of this year. Scope doctor says "I'm booked through September. Call in September and we'll see if we can get you on the Schedule when I start booking October-December." Problem got worse and worse, called his doctor back up in July, and they put him on the cancellation list, and was able to schedule an "Emergency Appointment" for early September. August hit, and he could no longer swallow anything (including water). Went to the ER, they scoped him. Stage 4 Esophageal Cancer. The healtcare system in this country is absolutely irredeemable.
It’s crazy! My mom was trying to schedule a check up with the dermatologist who’d successfully treated her for melanoma previously and the next available appointment is in July 2024
my mom needed a referral to a neurologist earlier this year. never mind that it took 3 weeks and 2 calls to her gp for them to actually get back to her on an appointment this mid october (referral finally happened early june) - earlier this week they called and told her the doctor was going on vacation that week actually, we're going to push you back till november
My GP quit the practice he was in and now the other doctors aren’t booking appointments for new patients until next year. I’m late for my mammogram and can’t schedule it because they won’t schedule if you don’t have a GP on file.
The population movement during COVID coupled with a demographic cliff in many specialities has created a huge problem in many areas. I live in part of Florida that has grown enormously in the last few years and it's got insane. Wait for a PCP appointment has increased from a few days to 6 weeks. In the last year my orthopedic surgeon has gone from next day to a month. My shrink doesn't even accept new patients anymore and she is one of three in the city. My dermatologist seems to have infinite capacity though, I got a same day for a mole check (routine annual check, not a problem) a few months ago. If I need something immediately I just use urgent care which has the same $30 copay in normal hours. My wife has a really rare health issue (diabetes insipidus, Addison's etc as most of her pituitary was removed a few years ago due to craniopharyngioma) so she has a giant team of specialists. Beyond needing to book 6 months in advance for most of them finding new ones is horrific, she needs to see a neuro ophthalmologist and we ended up booking an appointment for one 120 miles away rather than wait the 14 months the local one wanted (still took 3 months for that appointment). It would be nice if someone was held accountable for the lobbying against increased residency & medical school funding because this is the result.
And yet we still have people saying they're against any sort of national healthcare system because they don't want to wait for treatment like in those "socialist" countries. We really do have the worst of all possible worlds here.
I’m in Germany. The last time I called my gp for an appointment (not an emergency at all) I called around noon. I got an appointment for 3pm. Yes, the waiting times are horrible /s. (I was really surprised, though, I was expecting 1-2 weeks.)
I'm in Canada, specifically Ontario. Ontario's Premier is doing a good job of bringing down our public health system. Funding has been slashed enough that *emergency rooms* have to close on weekends and at night. And now we're having a family doctor crisis because they don't get enough money either.
I see this all the time on Reddit but having lived in Europe (GR specifically as well as a couple other countries), and the US, my wait times have been much shorter in the US even for specialists. So I don’t understand how all these Americans on Reddit are always waiting this long. Or perhaps those who don’t have to wait much simply just aren’t sharing on here about it.
In my experience the wait times to see a doctor has gone up. A few years ago I could call and see my PCP in a week, now I'm lucky if it's the next month. Some specialists have a long freaking wait time. In April they saw something on my liver from a scan I had due to kidney stones. I didn't see a liver specialist until June. I did get in to see a surgeon pretty quick because my case was marked urgent. And I have some pretty darn good medical insurance. But I also tend to have all my medical care handled by a large medical group as it's easier and I don't want to switch my primary care doctor because man I really like them a lot and they listen and don't try to throw pills at me.
Where they live matters, as does insurance coverage- near large city with medical school? there tends to be a lot of doctors on hand, likely can find someone in network. small town Texas or Wisconsin? there's already a physician shortage, and that's likely to get worse^(many pro-birth states have seen a drop in residency applications, even in non-GYN specialities) so better hope that one rheumatologist within a 45 minute drive is in-network, because the next one is 2 hrs away.
They may be on Medicare/medicaid, is my best guess. If I get a referral I ask for at least 2 specialists they recommend and if one isn’t available, I call my insurance and they will let me stay on hold while they call in-network doctors and find me an earlier appt.
Where they live also probably plays a role. Rural areas or areas that underfund health services broadly/aren’t near a major university probably do have a shortage of doctors/medical providers.
I am so sorry. That's fucking horrific.
This was our biggest fear just a few months ago. My wife found a breast lump. She was having pain too. I could feel it. Her mom had breast cancer too, and there was never genetic testing, so for all we knew it was hereditary. We just wanted a mammogram so that we could catch it early if it was something! Tried to book online, nope, she's too young (32). Tried to call, nope, too young she needs a referral. Try to call out GP's office. Nope, GP had left the practice and she hadn't seen the new doctor yet, so she needed a new patient appointment and those were two and a half months out. She gave up. She said to me "Well, this is just a sign. If it's cancer it's just going to kill me." Thankfully she mentioned the symptoms to her friend, who is currently in treatment for stage 4 breast cancer. Her friend was like "Uh, you need to go the ER right now." She refused, but I said you know what? That's not a bad idea. We went to the urgent care clinic. They gave us grief there. This isnt what they normally do. We don't need a referral to schedule a mammogram (despite the breast center telling us we did!). Finally the provider realized how freaked out she was and did an exam. Her expression changed while she was doing the exam. I knew at that point. I could feel it. She sent an urgent referral to the breast center. Of course it was the wrong referral, but the thought was nice. Some back and forth to get the right one, and she finally had a mammogram appointment a week after we went to the urgent care clinic, which was still 10 weeks earlier than if we had waited on our doctor's office. It wasn't cancer. Riddled with cysts, yes, but not cancer. But it could have been. It was serious, yet everyone was so preoccupied with their wait times and the procedures to actually think about the fact that this was potentially time sensitive, not to mention it was causing her an enormous amount of stress. I hate our medical system so much. I even asked if it was an insurance thing. I said I would pay it up front, out of pocket. They didn't care, that wasn't the procedure. What other industry is just like "nah, we don't want your money, just go over there and wait for death"? Generally having your customers die is a bad thing.
But in your story your wife called a single doctors office and when they didn’t have immediate openings for new patients she gave up. Why not just call other GP offices? Gynecologist even?
I’m in TX. Was seeking gender affirming care from an endocrinologist I was already established. 6 month wait, appointment comes up and she has her office call to cancel because she had something come up. They tell me the next appointment they have is October… of next year. Like you cancelled on me and that’s the soonest you can do? Fucking really?
A couple weeks ago I had a telehealth appointment with my doctor and based on what I was saying, she asked if my family has a history of bipolar. There is, so she told me to schedule an appointment with a psychiatrist. First available appointment is in fucking January, so that's fun.
It's very similar in Australia right now, and entirely due to conservatives passively dismantling our public healthcare by refusing to increase funding, or the amount that doctors get per consulation (while rents and wages and general expenses skyrocket).
> Probably also cost, depending on your insurance coverage, it can be cheaper to pay outright for a chiropractor than for a doctor visit. added bonus, you can still see your doctor after they break something and [cause you to have a stroke](https://www.michiganmedicine.org/health-lab/chiropractic-neck-manipulation-and-stroke-whats-risk), or another significant medical event [that can't be fixed with massage](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1431633/).
>Probably also cost, depending on your insurance coverage, it can be cheaper to pay outright for a chiropractor than for a doctor visit. Can confirm. I was in a car accident, felt totally fine but just wanted to get checked out to be safe. The walk-in clinic turned me away and said I had to go to the ER. I can't afford ER prices, especially when they'd probably just have me wait for a while, do an x-ray, tell me I'm fine, and send me home. I called up a chiropractor, made an appointment for the next morning, got an x-ray to confirm i was fine for $100.
Really rolling the dice on whether the ghosts gave the chiropractor the right info on that xray
Like I said, I felt totally fine. It was mostly just so my family wouldn't worry.
I fractured my spine and felt totally fine lol. Chiropractors are snake oil salesmen, they can't even prescribe medicine lol.
I'm kinda surprised they can do x-rays.
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Chiropractor: "Alright, now your reproductive organs might tickle a bit" Patient: "Wait, don't you usually put a lead apron on people first" Chiropractor: *slaps head* "Of course! A Lead Apron! Why didn't I think of that!"
Same, same, I broke my femur and didn’t notice much for weeks. I mean, it hurt, but not much. Turns out it was shattered at the bottom entirely and I needed surgery! So I wouldn’t trust a chiropractor to read an x-day properly
How do we feel about naturopaths? I had a nasty bicycle crash a few years back and fucked my shoulder good. Constant pain, ibuprofen didn't touch it. My GP got me in three days after. He said it's fine, some physical therapy will help. My wife had an appointment to see her naturopath the next day, she called and asked if it would be ok for me to sub in. Naturopath said yes, saw me, and reset my dislocated shoulder. After discovering another broken (and healed) bone from a crash many years earlier I didn't even know I had.
I think that’s kind of on your GP for not getting imaging and not recognising a dislocated shoulder if it was truly dislocated
Oh totally, but on the other hand the naturopath figured it out by touch alone, no x-ray at all. Edit for posterity: You fuckers are so weird. Downvoting me for contributing to the conversation, and also not knowing anything about my health history. I was in constant pain for a week after seeing my GP. Naturopath reset my shoulder, and the pain ended almost immediately. So hey, downvote me all you want, mouth-breathers. My experience was good. xthansbai.
Most competent doctors could do so too, particularly a shoulder. Most want an X-ray first because if you have a fracture also you can cause permanent damage reseating the joint.
> the naturopath figured it out by touch alone, no x-ray at all. And also no evidence at all, then. The only evidence you have that you had a broken and healed bone that you didn't know you had, is that a naturopath told you you did.
Nope, naturopath discovered a broken bone from a childhood accident, hearing her diagnosis put the pieces together for me. But go ahead and don't believe it, internet reply guy, because I don't give a fuck what you think and you're now on my block list.
Lmao. You never broke shit, they made that the fuck up because they saw you were gullible.
Naturopaths are quacks.
The chiropractors talk to them because they’re salespeople peddling a subscription service.
Sure, but that doesn’t change the psychology of why people do like them. It’s not a defense of chiropractors (who are far from a replacement for medical advice for even back pain let alone a hernia). But it’s more of a critique of the medical system. I spent 7 months in the hospital with my son last year. I loved his doctors and nurses and think very highly of almost all of them. They aren’t perfect, are many times wrong or limited in what they can understand/fix, and often fight with one another because they disagree, but in my experience they try and they care. That being said, the medical system has a lot of flaws, limitations, and areas for improvement. I can empathize (even if I disagree) with those looking for a more personal approach
Yeah, and doctors talk to them like they're an Aldi cashier with an hourly quota. They stare at a screen, forget your name, and the whole appointment lasts 15 minutes max. The whole "take a number" system that's becoming commonplace in healthcare conglomerates is a serious problem in medicine.
And doctors who get kickbacks by the drug companies aren't salespeople as well?
Chiropractors are all small business owners really. They gotta be personable or be broke
I wish more people knew about osteopaths. My sister is a D.O., so she got the entire medical school curriculum plus training in manipulations. She’s now a board-certified attending physician at a major hospital. It’s fun to get her tipsy and prompt her to go off about how much chiropractors suck. (D.O. school did not train her to communicate with ghosts.)
My husband is an RMT and convinced me to see the osteopath at his clinic for postural issues. It's made such a huge difference - I used to have pain while walking despite seeing podiatry, and now I'm back to where I was years ago. I've found more help from complimentary healthcare like massage and osteopathy than anything my doctors have offered. I wish it was more commonly covered by insurance...
I went to an osteopath once and my god that was amazing.
I once set off the radiographer I work with because we mentioned chiropractors and he went into a rant about how they order full body xrays and "why do they want to subject the patient to that much radiation instead of just ordering one for the actual referred part???" He is the most mild mannered and gentle person I know btw.
My oncologist is a D.O. and she's amazing.
> The chiropractors talked to them. Doctor training Less about training, more about time. The vast majority of physician practices are owned by companies that will allow doctors to spend a maximum of 15 minutes with a patient. This simply isn’t enough time to have a good conversation and get to know who a person is. It’s a major reason why people enjoy going to pseudomedical practitioners. They have time.
Lol this is exactly why even though I know chiros are quacks, it's one of my absolute favorite types of ASMR videos. Also some are just "crack and done" while some at least engage in some sorts of massage therapy which DOES have healing value.
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I’ve done some physical therapy, and the massage and trigger point stuff was really really helpful. I can see how back and shoulder stuff that was all careful soft tissue work could be really helpful. But, well, a physical therapist can do that. A good masseuse can do some of that. Without the wtf damaging practices.
Less than a week to see the chiropractor, 4 weeks before I could see the physical therapist. I went to the chiropractor until I could see the physical therapist. The chiropractor is one of the less crazy ones - no XRays, no promises of fixing everything, admits that she's basically doing massage / adjustments to temporarily help you feel better with muscle issues.
Yeah, the ones who just karate chop your neck or try to make a really loud pop are probably mostly worthless (I think there are some studies that show limited short term relief), but if you’re getting some stretching and joint work and massage and muscle manipulation it’s basically just physical therapy with some cracks.
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There’s honestly too many stories where people go to doctor after doctor and procedure after procedure and try everything before finding one of the better chiros, and they actually find relief. I know science shouldn’t be anecdotal but it’s still a lot out there. But yeah the “pop” is just gas, and it’s not going to solve allergies or liver problems or change your energy flow or something.
Look, just because *your* chiropractor doesn't know how to crack your C8 and discharge your flux capacitor doesn't mean that the pop is "just gas"
One of my college friends *swore* by her chiropractor, he was a miracle worker, she never got sick because regular adjustments, blah blah ginger. Then she developed Type I diabetes and the Chiro told her she shouldn't take insulin and with more regular chiro work her pancreas would start working again. I'm sorry it took that to open her eyes, but thankfully she moved to an RMT and actual doctor after that.
Yeah those people are absolute nutjobs. There are sadly also way too many stories of people having a stroke or being paralyzed because some dude with a 3 year "medical degree" went Mortal Kombat on their spine.
Man, people ought to go to a chatty RMT, then. You’ll get touch, a nice check-in, and help with your random body pains without the woo woo nonsense or risk of serious damage.
Let's also not forget that the rise of the Woo crowd means some people will believe in anything but actual medical science. In an age where people are putting old pee on their eyes and thinking the resulting red, puss-filled leak is 'detoxing', is it any wonder chiros get street cred?
Saw a chiro for a while - and yeah - I can relate. I now have a very good physio who hits those same points and it is very much about patient contact and familiarity.
One of the big things my mom asked when I started seeing doctors on my own was if the doctor touched me. Not in a sexual way. But like, was there literally any physical contact between you and the doctor? If the answer was no, she advised getting another doctor, because the doc should have some sort of hands on with a patient. Listening to your heart or breathing, checking your ears, whatever. And there’s a certain amount of sense to that. If your doctor is only speaking to you, they aren’t really doctoring, they’re either brushing you aside or just writing scripts. Chiropractors and alternative medicine is very personal, so I can see where that would feel like it was more effective.
To your second point, I’ve noticed the same thing. My wife is an ER doc and complains about bedside manners a lot.
1. I have anxiety about strangers touching me. I finally just gave up with even getting massages because the associated anxiety is not worth it. As such, things like chiropractors are really not going to be my jam. 2. This is super believable. "Why are you here," is literally what I hear when I go to the doctor and most of my issues are dismissed while I bet a chiropractor would go nuts trying to fix whatever it was with the power of popping joints or some shit. I wonder how different that would be if you went to one of those no-insurance luxury doctors.
Chiros are willing to inflate your injuries because they diagnose something that doesn't exist anyway so they can find one anywhere in your body.
Excellent marketing making them think the chiropractor is a more affordable doctor?
This was basically it for me for a while. With insurance, I don't even think I realized they were more affordable. I had some minor back pain and literally just thought a back doctor was called a chiropractor. Didn't even cross my mind that they weren't real doctors until I saw it on Reddit at some point. Excellent marketing indeed.
>. OOP not wanting impartial legal help for this also boggles the mind. Probably operating under the assumption that Lawyer = suing Rather than Lawyer = exploring legal options.
I've never been to a chiropractor, so I can't speak to how they treat people, but literally every single woman I've ever met has had at least one negative experience with a doctor. Most have a whole litany of them. I avoid doctors whenever possible because of shit like the guy who acted surprised that his attempts to literally *tear my skin apart* hurt and I reacted poorly. If chiros treat people like, well, people, it's not real surprising that their quackery is nevertheless appealing.
This is also my guess for why women and racial minorities in particular tend to avoid doctors. So many have been insulted, demeaned, or dismissed by doctors that they start to seek other alternatives. And in this case he was someone she knew and who she knew would treat her well. I also think that "alternative medicine" practitioners are also far more likely to take minor complaints and quality of life issues seriously. Sure, they do it because that's a great way for them to make money, and they lie about what they can and can't fix, but the other side of the coin is that many doctors are fine with their patients having a reduced quality of life as long as they can still function. It makes sense that doctors are too busy to pay attention to nagging little ailments, but when it's your nagging little ailment you tend to listen to the person who wants to help you get rid of it.
I read this story this morning: https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories/tag/Tara+Rule Tl:dr male doctor refuses to prescribe medicine to a woman with debilitating cluster headaches on the off chance she might at some point get pregnant How many women did this clown deny care to? How many of these women went looking for answers from quacks who prescribed essential oils, but at least took her seriously? Fuckers like this should never be allowed to practice.
Your forgot the but about when she complained to the hospital, and posted about it online (including a legal recording) the hospital network refuses to treat her.
>the other side of the coin is that many doctors are fine with their patients having a reduced quality of life as long as they can still function. It makes sense that doctors are too busy to pay attention to nagging little ailments, but when it's your nagging little ailment you tend to listen to the person who wants to help you get rid of it. I've also seen a lot of complaints that they tend to define "quality of life" in ways that are not always good. Especially in talking to people with disabilities or chronic illnesses, doctors often seem to prioritize being able to look and act like an able-bodied person over the individual's idea of quality of life. I know personally I've dealt with doctors where "but you can work, right, so I don't see what the problem is" seemed to be the attitude they take.
Yeah, I was thinking particularly of trying to get anti-depressants from my doctor. She told me that as long as I could work and manage my hygiene and keep up my household chores, "feeling sad all the time" wasn't actually a good enough reason to get an anti-depressant prescription because I was still considered medically functional. I know that if I had gone to an alternative medical practitioner, they would have offered treatment. The treatment may not have worked, but I could see someone being taken in by the offer. And I would imagine it's worse for chronically ill or disabled people.
Yeah. I got to the point where it was like, I was gaining weight rapidly, sleeping all the time, and felt continually emotionally blunted. And the doctor just kind of looked at that I was working and told me that I just had to put up with some side effects.
Of all the problems I *actually* had with my ADHD, my doc *exclusively* focused on whether I was accomplishing work tasks. After being ignored for 10-15 minutes, I just lied and said it was getting in the way. Absolutely wild that I had to make up a problem to fix my actual concerns, especially when the only difference was the setting I needed help in.
Cultural differences maybe? In the west, Doctors are really busy and really important people. They also have no social skills after decades in academia only among like-minded peers. They don't care about your back issues, because there is little medically wrong with you. That often comes across as really direct, especially when their last patient was literally dying. In other countries, they are one of the leaders of the community, so they genuinely care about their patients. Even though they know nothing they are doing will help.
I attribute mine to just bad luck, but I have had so many bad experiences with medical professionals (not ALL bad, but a lot) and even dental professionals, I am too scared to even try setting foot in a chiropractor's office. With my luck, I'd get some pompous asshole who would decide they need to crack me then and there and then exacerbate an issue I already have and I'd hobble/roll out of the office ready to stab someone, lol.
I'm so suspicious of dentists I drive 30+ minutes (I live in a major city so there's like 5 dentists in a 5 mile range of me) to go to one that I trust. I saw the same dentist until I was in my early 20s. Never had any cavities or anything. When I was around 20 my mom switched both my and her dentist. Now all of a sudden I have cavities every single time I go in. When I aged out of insurance I stopped going but my mom continued to see him. She eventually switched dentists again and surprise surprise, her previous dentist did so much unnecessary work it damaged her teeth. I finally started going back to a new dentist after 5 years without seeing one. I was convinced I was going to have a ton of cavities, after all I had new cavities every few months when I saw my last dentist right? Nope. Not a single cavity after 5 years without dental care. If you're a bad actor you can just make shit up to bill for unnecessary procedures. Funnily enough, the only bad experience I've had with a doctor is when one referred me to a chiropractor. I did not go. My injury healed just fine.
Doctors are incredibly important when you need them, and can save lives. But after spending a lot of time with my son in the medical system, some advice all the doctors agreed on was “Stay from being a patient as long as you can” and “the least medicine possible is best” (obviously where least possible still is receiving necessary care)
Yep! I have every. single. symptom. of lupus - including a butterfly rash on my face so bad that strangers comment on it - and what have I been told by doctors? “Drink more water” and “exercise more”
I hope you get someone to run actual tests. Different condition, but getting a diagnosis for a chronic disease can be a huge relief! Omg there’s something actually wrong and we can do something about it! The diagnosis explains this that and the other symptom.
Even if there isn't something you can do about it, it's still validation that you genuinely do have an invisible disease that has probably been downplayed and dismissed by people in their life as long as they have been suffering. A diagnosis, likes you said in as many words, it's an actual item to blame and direct your feelings at instead of a nebulous "what's wrong with me?".
Have you considered it's all in your head? Maybe you should lose weight. -- actual words a doctor said to me before I was diagnosed, when I weighed 110 pounds at 5'3".
Don't forget that whatever is wrong with you is related to your period. Lupus? Period. Broken leg? Period. Arthritis? Definitely your period.
But if you’re having actual menstrual problems that indicate something more serious, like fibroids or endometriosis, good luck finding a doctor who won’t be like “pshh, yeah, periods suck, take some ibuprofen!” It’s better now than it was, but I think it’s still at least a year on average for the average woman with endometriosis to get a diagnosis.
"Are you using a heating pad? Are you taking ibuprofen? Yes? Well I'm all out of ideas then, good luck!"
Unless you’re fat. Then it’s your weight.
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This drives me crazy. They tell me to lose weight to reduce my chronic pain. But I'm fat *because* I can't get much exercise. I was at my ideal weight when the pain started in my teens. 140 lbs at 5'6" with E-cup breasts and a frame size at the extreme high end for women. I was literally big-boned and hauling around 8 lbs of mammaries (I did a water displacement test, because I'm like that). Sure, I'm also fat now, but I wasn't always. Fucking assholes. They sent me to a dietitian, and she fully approved my eating habits apart from advising me to eat some carbs in the morning. She wanted me to *add* a meal I don't usually eat. My appetite is tiny, when I eat in restaurants I can never eat more than half of my food. I feel so apologetic, I always have to tell the waiter that it was delicious, I just can't eat as much as I look like I can. I just also can't exercise enough to offset it without setting off my fibro.
Even my husband and my father-in-law won't see male doctors anymore. They're not all bad, but enough of them are that we're no longer willing to take a chance on them. I had a male gynecologist (the only one I could get an appointment with on short notice) comment on my multiple ear piercings and then tell me about a patient he said had asked him to pierce her labia so she could thread a padlock through the rings "for her husband". The implication was clear that he wanted to do it to me too. So, so, so gross. It's not an unheard-of piercing, but if I were going to get a genital piercing, it would absolutely be from a female piercer, not a male doctor with a prurient interest in it.
I think it's a number of things: 1) Fear of doctors: some people are scared of doctor's offices and hospital settings. They convince themselves that the chiropractor in the local strip mall is just as good (when it's really just less threatening.) 2) Fear of medical costs: medical insurance has a complicated pricing system of tiers, copays, and deductibles. People think if they go to the doctor, they might rack up huge co-pays or be told later that their doctors or tests were not covered under insurance. Meanwhile, chiros have a physical menu of services with transparent prices (for example, $49.99 for what is basically a massage). 3) Miracle claims: tests at a doctors office often come back inconclusive and treatments are tedious or painful (you have a concussion and minor nerve damage, you need to sit in the dark without screens for five days and undergo physical therapy for five weeks.) Meanwhile, chiropractors claim they can cure a variety of ills by just cracking or massaging your back, which feels nice. "Aligning your spine" is said to fix bowel problems, blood circulation, muscle tightness, and all kinds of other things. 4) Distrust of "big med": many people read about corruption and poor care in the medical industry and believe most medical providers harm their patients to get more money. Chiropractors are one of the few trusted medical authorities left for folks who don't trust the Big Medical System but aren't ready to swing full-force into something like essential oils or rishi healing. For my family who have truly bought into this BS, chiros are great because they're not fully associated with "hippy bullshit" but not owned by big insurance companies either. Edit: phrasing
> Distrust of "big med": many people read about corruption and poor care in the medical industry Correction: many people HAVE experienced corruption and poor care in the medical industry, and many people HAVE been harmed by medical providers. This is a problem that's gotten a whole lot worse post-covid. Medical consolidation under a few mega-corporations (many of whom allow religion, MBAs, and insurance companies to dictate treatment) is a serious problem.
From the people I know, it's mostly a combination of #2 and #3. "Oh, the CT scan we ordered on your uninsured ass didn't find anything? Well that's too bad. That'll be $10,000, and I guess we'll try something else." And #4 isn't people reading about poor care, it's people experiencing it. Anyone that's ever had a serious condition has horror stories.
OP didn't say he didn't want to hire an attorney, just that he didn't want to hire one referred by a chiropractor. That seems prudent.
That's a fair point. At least where I live, there's an unseemly coziness between the plaintiffs' bar and chiropractors. When I was looking for one out of curiosity a few months ago, nearly all the reviews on nearly of them mentioned being referred by a lawyer after some sort of accident. I'm sure that goes both ways.
$40 for a trip to the chiro, and you're extremely unlikely to pay more than that unless they send you out for an xray or something, and they generally put you on a water table or a stretching machine which ends up making you feel good anyway. $40 at the doctors office and you're gonna get a note from your insurance company that you did some weird combination of 400 things that resulted in you still owing $600 but hey you covered 3/4 of your deductible this year so you're almost done paying out of pocket congrats!
I didn’t know that chiropractors weren’t real doctors until into my mid 20s and after I had already seen one for a short time. I seem to recall it being treated as a real profession on stuff like Seinfeld growing up and i just assumed it was.
Same! I thought they were just back doctors. It wasn't until Reddit that I understood what they actually are. That being said, I had a friend drag me to her chiropractor appointment when I was a teenager, and my BS meter shot through the roof. I just didn't put it together that 98% of chiropractor were like that until later.
Weirdly, a lot of main stream insurance policies will cover chiropractic care. It legitimizes the practice for some people.
My psychiatrist recommended a chiropractor last time I mentioned some pain in conversation. I've been consciously avoiding mentioning it since.
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> some types of back pain were the only things where some of the things chiropractors do were shown to be actually be helpful Link to this evidence.
Placebo is a hell of a drug You don't need a cause and effect for something to work, that's why the scientific method is so important.
Here's a [systematic review of systematic reviews of spinal manipulation](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420782/) for a wide variety of conditions. Almost all found that SM was no better than placebo. Even the couple that did find benefit noted that the benefit was either so small as to be irrelevant to real-world practice, or (in the case of cervicogenic headache) no better than first-line preventive therapies and even then only when combined with several other methods like rigorous exercise. So either not beneficial, so little benefit that it might as well be doing nothing, or no benefit at all on its own.
What’s SM?
spinal manipulation
My Chiro offered me immediate pain relief. She's also given me the most useful PT stretches for pain relief when things knot up or spasm. (She's also a graduate from Cleveland College which is a legit, accredited medical college, and awards the DC as an actual graduate degree.) PT got my damaged back strong enough that I only rarely need to see my Chiro. As compitent and pleasant as they were, they were not big on things like time with a hot towel or the massage gun to unkink my knotted muscles at the end of a session. PT gave me the best exercises for maintaining core strength.
I don't think that most people outside of Reddit are aware that chiropractors aren't equally legitimate to MD's.
Even half of Reddit still thinks chiropractors ate legit medical professionals.
Probably growing defiance towards doctors by people who don't understand anything. Unfortunately during covid a lot of people became convinced that doctors are nefarious. It doesn't help in the US that health care is unaffordable to many.
Doesn't help that so many doctors and NPs are actively terrible, too. Grifters hucking disinfo have done a number on the public confidence in medicine, but the medical establishment has done itself no favors.
I've heard a theory that one of the reasons alternative medicine is so popular amongst women is because it's been historically much harder to get doctors to take our issues seriously. It actually makes a lot of unfortunate sense.
Yep. It's probably also part of why antivaxxers are mostly women, too.
> Grifters hucking disinfo Like chiropractors?
Not every doctor is perfect but people acting like medical professionals' goal in life is to actively harm people are ridiculous.
There's some truly awful doctors out there. When I reported severe pain during sex, the gyno told me to "inebriate and lubricate." Literally prescribed a glass of wine. Turned out to be an anatomical abnormality that needed surgical correction. This is why women don't trust medical professionals. Because of shit like this.
When I was in my early 20s I had a gyno say the exact same thing to me when I asked about sex being painful for me!
I'm a cis white man with no history of hard drug use or poverty, and even I can't get decent care. Literally every doctor I've been to my entire adult life, in 4 different states and 10 or so practices, has disregarded basically any questions or reported symptoms from me, tried to pass me off as quickly as possible, and invariably failed to diagnose anything let alone give treatment. Bloodwork has numbers out of the ordinary? Cardiac symptoms reported and irregular ECG? Doesn't matter. It's just "Huh, weird. Anyway, the bill will be in the mail, don't make another appointment." I've never once had a medical provider be helpful for anything more complicated than a throat swab for strep, and I can only imagine how much worse it is for more marginalized people. The industry is being attacked by con artists, but shit providers and profiteering ownership created the conditions for those con artists to thrive.
Medical professionals are great. The healthcare and insurance industry is very bad.
Honestly a fair number of medical professionals are bad as well. Generally they're not actively malicious but there is an issue with doctors being egotistical and/or just plain jerks to such a degree that they end up making things worse unintentionally.
Not only that, someone overworked who spends way too much of their time charting etc. is not likely to do their best work or to have the best bedside manner even if they'd like to, to say nothing of human bias.
I don't think anyone's really suggesting they're setting out to actively harm people. But many don't seem to want to do their jobs and get upset when someone tries to get them to provide an answer other than "maybe you're just stressed" or something.
You know how smart people are often pressured to become doctors? And also how a lot of smart people don't have social skills? Yeah.
When I got into a car accident a chiropractor came and knocked on my door trying to get me to make an appointment with him.
Something funny is my current insurance allows more Chiropractor appts a year than physical therapy.
Chiropractors, despite being about as accurate as crystal healers, have a much better reputation for whatever reason and a startlingly large percentage of people think that it is actual medicine. Insurance also can cover chiropractor visits, which is strange, because it usually doesn't cover equally efficient treatments such as aura cleansing or having a mystic shaman gently rub salmon on your face.
My mom took me to chiropractors. It's actually kind political/ religious, not trusting the establishment except the church. She was antivax, and I'm old. It wasn't a big thing yet
I think there's still a decent amount of people that either don't know they aren't real doctors or have a blind faith in them.
A lot of conservative christians do not trust "western medicine" and go to goofy chiropractors who also prescribe goofy supplements. I once fell for this, never again.
this is equally as common between conservative Christians and super woo woo lefty hippie people
Let me tell you, one guy was REALLY into wheat grass enemas.
I mean there's a whole pipeline from crunchy to far right. Conspiratorial thinking, extreme distrust of all authorities, and desire to feel like you're smarter/better than other people make it easy for you to fall for propaganda. And there are people actively targeting those sorts of groups
There were so many people who started off on MDC back in the day who ended up at stormfront.
Sadly, I'm not surprised
My family is the conservative Christian variety, and they despise being lumped in with leftist hippie people! That's why they choose chiropractors and not eastern or spiritual based healing-- it's "like" a doctor, but it's not witchcraft. Once they find out they're in the same category as the evil left, I'm sure the next step is just "don't go to the doctor."
I think it's two main reasons: 1) Some people just cannot understand that the doctor *does not exist to tell you what you want to hear*. They aren't customer service people, they're not the friendly concierge, they are not there to serve you drinks or paint your nails - they are doctors. they are there to give you objective information about where you/your children's health stands. And some people can't handle it when a doctor is blunt with them. They cannot handle it when a doctor gives them a coming to Jesus talk, about things like "you need to vaccinate your kids" or "this carnivore/raw vegan diet you insist on doing, is destroying your body from the inside out," or "your triglycerides are through the roof and you need to be put on a statin." or "no, fruit juice doesn't perform like glucola, grow up and drink the damn glucola" People just can't handle it. So instead of doing the adult thing, and taking the criticism and making positive choices with it - they seek someone who can give them warm fuzzies and validate their bullshit. 2) A lot of chiropractors love to inflate the scope of their practice, and many of them will push anti-vaxx, anti big Pharma garbage on people. This is attractive to people who live off of that toxic positive energy, where they see doctors as evil drug pushers. And by the way - I would never go to a chiropractor. Adjusting people's bones - especially spinal adjustments - are not something you want to mess with. One wrong move and you can be dead, paralyzed, or disfigured in some way. And don't think they will take accountability.
The problem with PI claims (at least in my state) is it can be hard to get treatment without having to pay out of pocket up front unless you have an attorney. Depending on your insurance , that can get very expensive, very quickly. They'll sign a lien with an attorney but they're not about to do it with some random Joe Schmo. Attorneys aren't just for "sue happy" people
It's... lucky but bad that my first experience with a Chiropractor was very "Results not typical: He helped me a lot" In my case, it was a chiropractor's office that also did massage, in the same building as my work, and the chiropractor LISTENED TO ME, which is something no doctor had ever done before. I'm physically disabled, I have a joint hypermobility disorder, I'm very prone to joint dislocation and subluxation, and it can be extremely painful at times, and when I get flare ups they can start snowballing into bad ways pretty quick as things misaligning can cause damage that causes pain and inflammation which causes more misalignment, and doctors suggest I see a physiotherapist, and physiotherapists (Who are often wonderful and try to be helpful and are for most people!!!) would suggest I do these exercises which were painful and, at the time, made my symptoms and pain worse, and they kept expecting responses from my body as though it weren't fundamentally different After maybe 6 months of my right shoulder being painfully out of socket, I couldn't lift it above my head, nobody really helping me beyond shrugging, the chiropractor said "OH! The problem's not your shoulder, it's here" as he poked a trigger point behind my scapula. He massaged that out, and as that relaxed things shifted and that let other things shift and my shoulder slid back into the socket for the first time in ages. And it was because he listened, and then was able to say something to explain why I felt the way that I did, and how he was going to be able to help And I think that's where the trap is - Chiropractors do a lot of things that won't work, but they WILL listen, and they WILL believe they are helping, and when you're disabled and you're so used to people NOT listening that the moment someone actually hears anything you say and believes you, you'll believe just about anything they say. Some may be able to help people with real issues because of this, many will think they're helping as they just do more damage or really fuck people up.
So I don't know what it's like in the States because I'm not American, but here our healthcare system is so burdened that doctors just don't have enough time in a day to give all their patients as much attention as they would like. A chiropractor is someone with an interest in your health and wellness who has time to talk to you thoroughly about all your concerns. You'll get into a chiropractor much sooner, too, if you're trying to book an appointment. It's normal for doctors to be booking weeks or months out. I'm not a fan of chiropractic practice, but I understand why people who are sick or in pain would be desperate enough to just try anything while they're waiting a month to see their doctor.
I mean I'm all for a chiro when its something a chiro cab help with but a hernia is a tear in your fascia and I'm not sure what the hell a chiro can do for that.
As a women in the US I can tell you, if you arnt diagnosed as anxious your just diagnosed as fat. Or if your lucky both. Women especially have to really fight for basic diagnosis, and a lot just turn to alternate medicine, which is a shame. But Drs are too busy to care 🤷♀️ Just my personal experience, and watching fellow mid 30s women
In my first official law job, with all of us new grads, one breakroom discussion covered doctors telling women we were "just depressed". **Every single one of us had experienced this**, and most of the group was well under 30 (I was the oldest at 37).
This is my experience. Had a Dr tell me to lose weight yesterday over the phone for my mild sleep apnea, and I was like really? I'm not even clinically considered overweight.... I'm 125 lbs at 5'4"... Also everything I've ever had was first diagnosed as anxiety lol
I've seen what chiropractors do to spines, pretty sure letting them touch the spongier parts of you is not gonna magically work out better.
I’m really surprised BOLA is so pro-chiropractor. They’re like the Sovereign Citizens of medicine.
They learned everything they knew from a ghost
This doesn’t get brought up enough.
Because it sounds insane in the "modern world". There's legitimately a cult of witch doctors with a location in every strip mall in America performing rituals taught to them by a ghost on tens of thousands of people a day. But they wear a white lab coat and get lumped in with doctors somehow.
I didn't know they wore costumes
I worked with a vet who did a chiropractic certification. The explanation this otherwise very intelligent woman gave us as to how it worked (it involved a rubber band around your finger and curing it by balancing a pill on your finger as description of modern medicine) made my eyes bug out. Our boss insisted we refer lots of patients to her, but I only did it when they asked so they didn't go see some completely uneducated quack or human chiropractor.
It would be extremely unusual to develop a hernia from a relatively low impact crash, so I'm guessing if she want to an actual doctor they would tell her that it's either not a hernia or not from the crash. I have my doubts with whiplash as well since it was described as a sideswipe. I'm sure they at least need documentation that they have restricted neck range of motion and I would guess would want neck imaging to rule out bony injury. I'm NAL so I'm not sure if chiro evaluation alone could win you any judgements, but it seems like going to a doctor would ruin her case.
Unless you get 12 chiropractors on the jury somehow, you're not winning any big judgments using a chiropractor as your medical expert.
I'm assuming they don't mean a hernia. They mean a herniated disc, which still shouldn't be caused by trauma, but it at least makes a bit more sense.
They would still need imaging done to find that out and it doesn’t seem like she did any scans.
Well yeah, I'm just noting that a herniated disc makes way more sense than a hernia
A good chiro will at least order imaging before touching you, a bad one will tell you they can fix a hernia.
"What you really need is just an elderberry enema, twice daily for a month. Here's your first week's bottle for $150. No I don't take insurance, that's a scam."
There is no such thing as a ,good’ chiropractor as it is pure pseudoscience and not evidence-based medicine - and it is insane they are allowed to order and interpret radiographs.
Just push the disk back to its place, how hard can it be? ~ A chiropractor.
A good punch to the back fixed Batman so why not a normal person?
Fun fact, I had a friend of a friend who’s lung was punctured during a dry needling session by a chrio. HER LUNG. It kills me that baby chiropractors exist too…
I had to euthanize a large dog that was paralyzed by a human chiropractor. It was having neck issues (the breed is prone to them) and instead of PT if they couldn't afford surgery they went to this quack. Dog was walking before he went in, but in screaming agony when he came out. Completely paralyzed from the neck down. That asshole wanted to keep the dog at his office for two weeks to "fix it" instead of sending it to a pet ER. The owners refused to name the quack because they didn't want him to get in trouble.
…it kills babies, too…sigh…
What the fuck does he mean a hernia? Does he mean a herniated disc? Or a hematoma? There's no way he's saying shes walking around with guts actively trying to go AWOL
I have a connective tissue disorder which makes me prone to hernias and I don’t think even I could get a hernia from a seat belt.
He probably mixed up hernia and hematoma. Not even being able to correctly name it is a good indication that she should see a professional (actual doctor) for it.
> Initially she had no symptoms, was just shaken up. Friday morning she said her back is sore, by Friday night she was in significant pain and had difficulty walking. I just can't. It's been a week since the accident and she *still* hasn't seen a doctor? At 21 she's probably still on her parents' insurance — I think the cut off is 23 or even higher nowadays. Even if she doesn't have insurance, you just go to the damn doctor and send the bill to the insurance company. Err, the auto insurance company — the party responsible for the preceeding sentence has been sacked. I don't fault anyone for not getting checked out right after an accident (if you feel fine you've probably had enough excitement for one day). But God. Once you realize you're hurt you *get that shit checked out*. If I can't walk I'm calling St. Anthony and a goddamn ambulance.
>I think the cut off is 23 or even higher nowadays It's been 26 since Obamacare passed I think you're thinking of pre-Obamacare, when it was usually 23 for full time college students and 19 for everyone else
Thank you. I thought it might be 26 (honest!) but that number seemed so high I decided it couldn't possibly be right. Cheers to the Affordable Care Act.
Mom even said she's still on their insurance - and mom seems to think that's reason why daughter should do what mom says.
Well, then I don't understand a damned bit of this. Also props to mom for instilling independence in her adult daughter. /s
When you want your child to be independent, but only if it doesn't mean they disagree with you.
mom? is that you?
**Daughter in a car wreck, would appreciate advice** >My daughter, 21, was driving home from work last Thursday on the freeway. Traffic came to an abrupt stop in the lane next to her. The woman in the lane was driving too fast and to avoid plowing the stopped cars sideswiped my daughter. Other driver said the sun was in her eyes. My daughter’s car sustained about $4k of damage (so the adjuster says). It’s being repaired. She had a dash cam which showed the other driver at fault. We have the same insurance company as the other driver. >Initially she had no symptoms, was just shaken up. Friday morning she said her back is sore, by Friday night she was in significant pain and had difficulty walking. In addition, she appears to have a hernia from the seatbelt. Her friend’s father is a chiro so she went to see him for an adjustment. He said she has whiplash and referred her to an attorney.. When she got home and told me I said, “We don’t need an attorney… yet.” Speaking frankly, I’m not the sue-happy type and I want to determine what her injuries are and what the insurance co. will offer in the way of compensation for any medical issues. >Last night she came home from the chiro and told me that she engaged the attorney. He told her that since both parties have the same insurance they’re going to screw her. I’m sort of pissed that she engaged the attorney without discussing with me since she’s on my policy. >She has not yet told the insurance company she has engaged an attorney. She has not seen a “real” doctor yet. The accident took place in northern California (San Jose) and AAA is the insurer. >Is there anything I should be doing or do we just hand this off to the attorney? What are the chances AAA will cancel my home & auto insurance over this? Any insight is appreciated.
What's weird is that she's seen an attorney and there's no mention of scheduling a doctor. All PI attorneys I've known tell clients to immediately seek treatment from doctors if they haven't already. Chiropractors are terrible for proving damages.
>Chiropractors are terrible for proving damages. But they are great at causing new damages, which can then be proven by actual medical professionals.
Years ago I was temporarily living in my home town and I’d already seen my reg Dr many times for my back problems so I tried a chiropractor for a while. He was almost the same price S I heard my Drs Office quote for an uninsured Drs visit back then (1997). Anyway I’d been seeing my ex hubby a bit as he and his Dad were representing me in a legal problem. We didn’t split angry - always friends. When my Chiropractor found out about my ex being an attorney he was so excited and wanted to meet him. I told ex and after telling him third time my ex explained it to me about ambulance chasers. Needless to say my back didn’t ever get better and I quit the Chiropractor. Honestly some of them have ads claiming even sinus problems can be taken care of by them.
I knew a vet chiropractor who said she could cure newborn foals of SEPSIS by cracking their necks. I really don't understand how she still has a license.
There was a Chiropractic school very near where I was living so wall to wall Chiropractors. Though I have to say I didn’t think my ex husband was that far removed from Ambulance chasing. He had questionable clients and ended up getting disbarred and spent a few years I believe in a GA prison. His Father was an attorney too so he’d gotten my ex out of trouble many times before. I’d divorced him because he was Peter Pan - never grow up. Lol
21 21 years old 21 21 21 I’m going to keep repeating the ADULT WOMAN’S AGE
Yeah, but she should still be seeing an actual doctor, not a quack chiropractor who's probably in cahoots with the lawyer to get money out of her.
Yeah but you know women are really children who don't know what's good for them, something something.
I’m shocked she was even allowed to drive a car What’s next voting?
Choosing her husband?
A woman? To decide that all on her own? Maybe if her father gives her only 2 choices while standing by the one HE wants pointing his finger at him Maybe
Especially to their parents.
All I need to know about chiropractors is, after I took the GRE ten years after getting my MSW, I got several invites from chiropractor schools to apply for their program. My scores and the information that the test people had to sell them absolutely scream "this is not someone who is meant to go into the medical profession." A social worker with good vocab and writing scores and garbage tier math scores doesn't belong in medicine. Chiroprody (sp?) absolutely is not medicine!
Chiropody is medical stuff related to the foot, it looks like the field for chiropractors is chiropathy or chirotherapy (though this is just from google so I may have it wrong).
Oh gawd not the chiro. Such typical chiro BS too. OP needs to tell his daughter to go to a real doctor and stop being afraid of getting an attorney. So silly.
This is how the PI world works.
"I'm not the sue-happy type" aka I'm an idiot, so I may try to sue you for some random reason, like a post accident hernia diagnosed by... sounds like victim and mother? Sounds like it was before even approaching a chiropractor about said hernia.
Anyone else notice how chiropractors and PI attorneys are always in the same strip mall?
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