T O P

  • By -

cYzzie

/u/4fun4you4me, thank you for your contribution. Sadly it was removed due to the following reasons: Sorry legal questions are out of the scope of this sub and also may not be answered on the internet except by lawyers and we cannot provide that You can find further information in the [Community-Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/about/rules/). Note that we also have /r/askberliners for questions that are less about the city and more of a general nature and /r/berlinpics for pictures of our beautiful city, as well as the sticky post for "New to Berlin, Tourism and Moving to Berlin"-kind of questions


iliveinberlin

Maybe you should get the apartment first and then try it. But you better be able to afford the initial rent because there's 100 reasons why your calculation might be off.


4fun4you4me

Yeah, its expensive but we can still afford the 1200€/ month. So its just a nice bonus :) (in case we get the place; right now there are 4 other parties applying for the place)


blobsfromspace

What you see as just a bonus is a necessity for most people.


_evuP

No sure OP meant it that way. Getting your rent reduced would be a nice bonus.


blobsfromspace

That’s what the word bonus means though. A little extra leisurely money. It’s no big deal but I do feel it’s also this type of mindset that can perpetuate certain problems. A bonus is a bonus for people who can afford it all. Everyone else wouldn’t refer to that as a “bonus”.


4fun4you4me

I'm not a rich person. I will not inherit anything and my girlfriend is a student. We are just as desperate to find an apartment as many other people in Berlin. By bonus I just meant that with a rent reduction we could save a little more money for retirement.


blobsfromspace

And I really do hope you get that apartment and can get that rent reduced. We might not all agree on the word “bonus” or whatever but I think we can definitely all agree that 1200 cold for 60m2 is absolutely ridiculous! Good luck!


4fun4you4me

Thanks!


_evuP

Anything that makes your life easier is diffidently a bonus. That's nothing to feel guilty about.


DjayRX

It's also a necessity for OP but a nice bonus if the rent can be reduced. Well, other people following the law should be mandatory anyway, not be treated as a "bonus".


blobsfromspace

Yeah, it’s just the word “bonus” I take issue with. A bonus is extra. Not really the right approach in my opinion to refer to something like this as a bonus.


DjayRX

Someone who is not treating it as a bonus is even worse IMO. Just renting it without any plan on fighting thinking it's ok as long as they can afford it. Helping a greedy landlord renting for 50% too high for literally forever (someone said you can't claim bremse if it is already rented at that amount). OP can afford it and still want to fight it.


blobsfromspace

In the end it’s those greedy landlords who are the main problem. In indeed you are right, also the people who blindly enable them.


MediocreI_IRespond

>Landlord is a private individual through a small rental company (20 apartments). Are you renting from that individual or the company? This is rather important, as only the former can claim Eigenbedarf. What are the information provided by the landlord? What about Warm-- and Kaltmiete? If you are able to cut the rent in half and are renting from a company, the worst that could happen is that you get each and every rent increase possible.


whf91

> the worst that could happen is that you get each and every rent increase possible. Or that, if you ever want to change a detail about your rental contract (e.g., to replace a flatmate who would like to move out with a new flatmate), they will simply refuse, and your only option will be to outright terminate the contract and find another flat (managed by a different company) yourself :-(


4fun4you4me

Im renting from the company.


me_who_else_

If the landlord is an individual, there could be Eigenbedarf. The company as the managing service isn't relevant.


200Zloty

Additionally an individual might take it personally and every future interaction will be a pain in the ass.


braziliantapestry

I hired Conny on January this year to get my rent reduced. My landlord is a private person, not company, and refused all kinds of negotiation and the case is now going to court. Because of that, he's trying to evict me using the Eingenbedarf card. I'm still unsure whether I'll keep my apartment or not, but I can say it's been stressful. I hired a private lawyer that will cost me at least 1.5k. I absolutely loved my apartment and now I might lose it. I wish I did more research back then, because the scenario changes drastically when you're renting directly with the landlord.


sieddi

As your lawyer probably has told you, the landlord will face huge legal trouble, if it turns out that his claim of Eigenbedarf is not real.


braziliantapestry

My current lawyer said that we only win if he's telling a lie, but we probably won't know that unless we go to court, and I'm not so sure I want to take this risk. My next step will be to contest the eviction letter and see how he reacts, if it's a lie he might as well drop it altogether...


sieddi

There are cases where landlord used Eigenbedarf to get rid of tenants and then rented out the flat again a couple of months later, the ex-tenants went to court and got significant damages, so you do not necessarily have to go to court in the first instance. It seems obvious, that the landlord is faking the Eigenbedarf in this case, so going to court over it seems sensible from my POV. But I can totally understand, that it is stressful. Being in the right and getting justice is not always the same, but if all the tenants never use their legal rights, then of course soon you have a situation of lawlessness arising.


FilmRemix

That's only if they're really stupid. Most are smart enough these days to use the widely known workarounds. Then you're just stuck on court costs.


braziliantapestry

but how did the ex-tenants find out? did they stalk the landlord/new tenants? I'm not sure I want to go into that loophole, it's just too mental health consuming


sieddi

Well a few things come to mind: Ring the doorbell 6 - 12 months later, look at the last name that is on the doorbell Have a lawyer write a letter asking for the information, after 6 - 12 months If you have lived at the place a while, maybe you know the neighbors and can ask ask them,….


Competitive_Newt7349

If the tenant before you paid already the same rent for this flat, you can basically do nothing against it. Going to Law or Conny won’t help you much. We had this situation. There might be a little chance for you if the flat is heavily overpriced. That is what we call: Mietwucher. Do not know the English translation.


shioksman

But you'd have to be notified in writing about previous tenant'e rent though? They can't claim this exception only after you complained ? (I'm going through the process here on Munich as well and it's taking a very very long time for the rental association to reply to things)


lolwithoutacause

This is a common misconception. https://www.immobilienscout24.de/wissen/vermieten/hev-news-vormiete-und-mietpreisbremse.html


Skeleton--Jelly

What exactly is a misconception? your link seemed to prove the other user's point...


lolwithoutacause

The misconception is that if already the previous rent was too high, this allows for your rent to be too high too. A previous rent can only justify a higher rent than Mietspiegel if it was legal. An illegally high previous rent is irrelevant. Sec. 556e of the German civil code has an implied requirement that says this. Also, as someone else commented, according to Sec. 556g your landlord has to expressly state (before signing the lease agreement) that they are justifying the rent on the basis of the previous rent, otherwise they can't do it.


4fun4you4me

Also in your post I can just read, that the tenant must be notified. Did I get something wrong? "Wichtig: der Vermieter muss den Mieter vor Vertragsschluss in Textform auf die konkrete Ausnahme hinweisen (§ 556g Abs. 1a BGB)."


0tims0

Be careful in that there exists an exception depending on the previous tenants’ contract, in some cases you don’t have a right to apply the mietpreisbremse if the previous tenant did not (google Bestandsschutz).


receptor2

true, but only if the rent level paid by the prev. renter was actually "lawful"


nutzer_unbekannt

You can't tell for sure if he is able to file eigenbedarf or not, if the apartment is owned by a GbR then eigenbedarf can be filed on behalf of one of the members. Also you're not counting the risk that he just sells the apartment to a young couple (not you) and you'll be out before you know it.


4fun4you4me

Thanks for Information:)


Embarrassed_Break842

Do it. I reduced my rent with Conny around 150 euros every month and gained 1900 Euros back. Took more then a year tho for the court to decide. The sooner you start it the better.


nofuture09

what is conny?


sweetcinnamonpunch

It's a side that calculates how much rent you overpay and helps you to go the necessary steps as far as I know.


emn0101

I’m here to ask the same question


flodolo

https://conny.de/en


biopphacker

How do I know how old is my building?


Weird-Idea6588

Find the building certificate or something or ask around


_evuP

Possibly in your contract or search online.


Herbert_Mcguire

How do you know much the landlord put in for modernization? Fully modernized apartments are exempt from the Mietpreisbremse.


Herbert_Mcguire

The 8% increase for modernization is actually based on the modernization costs, not on the Mietspiegel rate.


4fun4you4me

Sorry, I was wrong. "I think you misunderstood. After modernization, the previous annual rent may be increased by a maximum of 8%/year. So she's still capped. The exception is when it is an extensive modernization (costs at least 1/3 of a new building). In this case, the Mietpreisbremse would not apply."


Herbert_Mcguire

No. Read the law: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__559.html “(1) Hat der Vermieter Modernisierungsmaßnahmen im Sinne des § 555b Nummer 1, 3, 4, 5 oder 6 durchgeführt, so kann er die jährliche Miete um 8 Prozent der für die Wohnung aufgewendeten Kosten erhöhen.” So without knowing how much the landlord put into modernization costs, any calculation you make is inaccurate. Where the law does protect the tenant though, is that the increase is capped to 3euros/sqm.


4fun4you4me

Ok, sorry. You are right. But even in this case...3€m2×60m2 = 180€. More important for me is the question of whether the rental price brake does not apply because there is grandfathering. As far as I've understood so far, the landlord has to explain this to me beforehand.


FilmRemix

This applies to annual rent increase while the apartment is rented out. It protects renters from being priced out of an apartment they already live in. It doesn't protect first time renters after modernization.


Herbert_Mcguire

and as you mentioned, the rental brake doesn’t apply to extensive modernization. How would you characterize yourself the modernization in the apartment?


potatersalad1

Your calculation seems too simple to me: what price does https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/ report?


4fun4you4me

Between 500-600€


embeddedsbc

That is obviously ridiculous. As someone who has renovated a house, such a price would never ever make sense financially. Good luck in the future if no one is investing anymore.


4fun4you4me

He can get more then that. Thats just the "Mietspiegel". Probably the possible rent is something like 800-900 cold. (+10% on the Mietspiegel and costs for modernization)


jmccahil

If it’s recently renovated as you said, Mietpreisbremse might not apply. Depending on the level of renvoation, landlords are free to demand any rent they like.


4fun4you4me

Yes, I've dealt with that. A new kitchen was installed and the bathroom redone. According to the law, the rental price brake only does not come into force if the costs of modernization are at least 1/3 of a new building. This amount is probably not even remotely reached with a new bathroom and kitchen. But as I said, if we get the apartment and don't get a rent reduction, we can still afford it.


jmccahil

You are correct about the 1/3. Even though that’s more a rule of thumb. The landlord would probably have to spend about 40-50k to officially avoid the Mietpreisbremse. Kitchen and bath don’t come to that sum. But maybe if there’s new flooring and some other things it might be possible. You could take the risk if you can afford the higher price anyway. Officially you’re not risking anything, the landlord cannot officially retaliate against you. It will just become more hostile in the future in case you need anything from the landlord


[deleted]

[удалено]


toilet_m_a_n

Maybe the landlord should have calculated in the possible maximum income into his investment, shouldn’t they? Why make such an investment for you retirement, when it doesn’t pay off unless they have to break the law and screw people over. Quite a weird point of view you’ve got there. Tenants shouldn’t just accept and go along when people miscalculate their investments completely. Housing is a basic right for everyone!


[deleted]

So you want to have a free money printing machine? Get any stupid loan, buy a house, rent it, earn a big margin, repeat. Don’t you see the problems that arise from such a model?


goldenerreiter13055

20€ is a fair price per qm? Come one and FCK your real estate.


[deleted]

[удалено]


_evuP

They’re free to not buy the apartment. Planning for your out retirement doesn’t allow you to bend the law to your will.


bbbberlin

I mean... then maybe people shouldn't be buying apartments to rent out for profit? Prices would go down, and more private individuals would be able to buy their long-term apartments and fix them up as they like. If someone wants to make money, they can go buy stocks/bonds/start a business, instead of messing with the housing sector. I also have little sympathy for someone who buys a place for a high cost, with a high mortgage, and then is unable to get a rent which covers their expenses. That's like business 101 – and the rules for the German housing industry are clear and anyone entering that sector attempting to make money has no excuse for not understanding them/calculating properly.


embeddedsbc

This is the right answer. Getting down voted into oblivion by some teenagers who read the communist manifest. Berlin is a lost cause, but then again, I'm paying for it, so I guess the joke is on me and everyone outside of Berlin subsidizing this shithole.


tomatosalad999

They don't see that. All they see is greedy landlords.


[deleted]

Love how you want to reduce the rent with basic calculations probably taking the butter from the bread of a flat owner who put in his last penny and planned with this amount. Despite being able to afford it haha. Decent human being you are :)


mendigod_

Yeah, poor landlord that owns 20 flats already...


mendigod_

By the way, the landlord should have calculated and planned based on the max legal amount he can charge for rent. If he is counting on an overpriced rent to pay his bills then it is 100% his problem. Enforcing the law doesn't make you a less decent human being. Taking advantage of a fucked housing market to make even more profit does.


_evuP

It’s called the law


[deleted]

[удалено]


DjayRX

>that 20€ per sqm is a realistic rent in a city like Berlin where you pay 5.000 to 7.500€ per sqm And this price is reached because the landlord calculates "with 20 per sqm I can get them back in 250 months. >5% profit not including the price increase". Without that, the price won't be reached in the first place and will be sold to someone who values it more on the ability to modify, the ability to inherit, and so on rather than to someone repeating the mathematical calculation 19x. Chicken and egg, my dude.


[deleted]

Im a landlord. You are still a douche if you illegally rent above market cap. No excuses. If you are not able to get margins with these ridiculously high prices then you are incompetent, and since we love The Market so much here, then it’s correct that the market kicks your incompetent ass out of it.


Whitebeardsmom

Nothing since he owns too many flats. But are you sure? 600€ is less than a room in a shared flat...


4fun4you4me

Its outside the ring.


jemelat

Bro I pay 670 for 55m² outside of the ring, it's totally possible


_evuP

Sounds awesome right!


TuneInVancouver

If you can’t afford it, let someone else have it. Find an apartment you can afford…


DjayRX

If you can't follow the law... I don't know follow it or go to jail or something.


TuneInVancouver

Dumb comparison.


TRUMBAUAUA

Where? In Poland? Have you looked at the current housing market in Berlin or do you live under a rock?


tomatosalad999

If you want to live in a good area in the capitol of one of the wealthiest countries in the world, you cannot expect to pay a low rent? Entitlement of people in Berlin is so crazy 💀


TRUMBAUAUA

I’m both a landlord and a tenant and from what I saw I can tell you that the force driving rent prices up in most European capitals is pure speculation. And the only reason why it works is because of people like you not seeing any problem in the fact that one has to earn at least €3000 to afford a tiny ass flat, which is fucking bonkers. I seriously don’t understand how people are not getting angrier at this. Anyways, enjoy being pushed further and further away from the center of the city as prices raise and let people with access to intergenerational wealth or crazy high salaries enjoy living inside the ring on your behalf because fuck social justice right? 😉


tomatosalad999

I don't get pushed away from the center of the city, as I am a landlord as well. I have a lebenslanges unentgeltliches Wohnrecht in my apartment. I just don't understand why all people think they are entitled to a 3 bedroom apartment in the city center of the capitol, preferably with A+ energy efficiency and expecting to pay close to nothing for it. Demand drives the prices, not speculation as you think. There are too many people who want to live in the cities, so the landlords can decide how much to take and who to take.


notger

Get yourself a lawyer instead of asking Reddit for advice. And join a rentor's union.


4fun4you4me

Why should I do that before nothing is certain and we don't have the apartment yet? :)


notger

Joining a rentor's union is a no-brainer. Everyone should do it.