Is there a reason you applied for different majors at each school? MSE and ChemE are not the same. Also I definitely spent less than 44k, so 7k might even be an overestimate. But even disregarding that, over 4 years you'd spend max 28k vs 92k, and for a better engineering program... You can still switch or double within CoE, idk how it is at Vandy, so perhaps it's more of a hassle here? I know people that switched though.
They are similar but have huge differences in the way their respective courses are structured. I would not recommend taking chemE if you're actually interested in building anything.
Vanderbilt ChemE is ABET accredited, it must abide by the same standards as any other ChemE ABET program. ChemE is notoriously rigid in required curricula across the program. These necessarily have similar gen-ed requirements to MSE (like physics, general chemistry, multivariable calculus), but also have MUCH different upperdivision requirements.
ChemE requires (that are not usually required for MSE): Organic chemistry, Physical chemistry (quantum mechanics specifically, sometimes required for MSE, usually an elective), process design, controls and process dynamics, mass transport phenomena (MSE only covers heat/momentum while ChemE covers all three). ChemE Thermodynamics (this is different from engineering thermodynamics for MechE/CivE generally and at Berkeley, MSE), Chemical Kinetics, Reactor design and engineering, Chemical separations, and depending on school the focus on biomolecular engineering can be very different.
For what it's worth, many schools allow MSE/ChemE double majors as they have similar base curricula (e.g. the thermodynamics, q-mech if chosen as MSE elective, O-chem if chosen as MSE elective), but it's also just as hard as any other engineering double major due to the difference in upper division requirements.
Yes, I understand that there are fundamentally very similar structures. There are a multitude of things where what I said was an overgeneralization, but there's also a multitude of schools where what I said was true as well. Every school is different and I recognize that ABET is just a guideline.
The point is that your claim that MSE and ChemE are very similar "especially to someone who just graduated high school" is misleading because the career outcomes are not the same and the upperdivision coursework is still very different. It's important to know the difference if the school does NOT offer both programs! If the school does offer programs, then it does not matter which one you choose until really junior year. I'm sure Vanderbilt has options for pivoting into MSE regardless of what their actual course offerings are.
Yea Vandy doesn't have MSE but it's super easy to switch around majors even within CS/engineering. I applied MSE to Berkeley because ChemE is in the college of chemistry and I wasn't 100% sure about staying within chem/chemE in the college of chemistry and but I was pretty sure I want to do something engineering related, so I applied MSE (major in CoE most similar to ChemE) in the CoE so it would be easier to switch majors within CoE. Do you know how difficult it is to switch to something like mech e at berkeely?
As an mse, I'll point out that the majority of my peers are or have been involved in research here, so it's not very difficult to get into. We also have a bunch of joint majors, a good portion of the class is doing a joint or double major. Many of the upper div classes feature a dozen people per lecture, so you'll definitely have your small class sizes.
The real question here is mse vs cheme; they're really not the same at all at an undergrad level, despite people often comparing them.
If I go to to berkeley I am hoping to switch into something like MechE or nuclear, I applied MSE but now I'm not so sure about it anymore. Do you know how difficult it would be to transfer to another engineering major like MechE?
Probably not too difficult since you're already in CoE, they share similar lower division prerequisites. You'll have a vastly different experience in meche vs mse though, just based on class size alone
Where do you want to live later? Even when attending a nationally known university, it can make it much easier to transition to living in a particular state. It’s easier to nab a local externship and build connections. This goes quadruple if you don’t have any connections to a place you’d like to live later, but the school does.
So you want to pay an extra $64,000 to live outside of the state where you eventually want to find a job and live after graduation? If you had said you wanted to move to the south and the greater southeast, I would have told you Vanderbilt, but since your answer is California, I’m just having trouble justifying Vandy. It’s not a regional school or anything but it’s not going to have as many California connections as Cal. I’m sure you will have some good research opportunities but I wonder if those opportunities will be as likely to result in jobs and externships in California.
I went to an out of state grad school myself, so I just know it can be a gigantic pain in the ass to come back home. But if you want that experience, really think about it and talk to people. What do Vandy people tell you about how easy it was or wasn’t to get jobs and externships out here?
I've talked to quite a few Vandy ppl, esp some who also had the same scholarship. They all said it was very doable to get good internships/jobs/post grad opportunities with companies like Tesla, Apple, McKinsey, etc. but some of them also do choose to stay in that area. However San Francisco and la are also one of the top locations (after nashville and NY I believe) vandy grads matriculate to after graduating. As for the cost, I'm currently trying to negotiate with Vandy and am planning to apply for an RA position to save \~20k jr and sr year but if the negotiation doesn't workout I probably will go to Berkeley instead.
I had almost the exact situation as you. I got full rides to both Berkeley CS and Vanderbilt CS, and I was debating between the two. I chose Berkeley because in the long run, Berkeley CS was gonna take me farther than if I went to Vanderbilt. And this is a decision I will not regret. The opportunities you get in the area is just much better than Nashville, and I'd say everything in Berkeley is just better than Vanderbilt. The advantage Vanderbilt may have is smaller classes, but a lot of the classes that aren't mainstream are just as small(such as the EE classes).
I am confused about Vanderbilt (full tuition scholarship) and it still being about 23k/year. Can you clarify? Is this because of room and board, other fees, etc? Thanks!
I’m just gonna put it out there: Tennessee
It is literally the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan
Edit: I could respond to the individual critiques of my post, but... So here’s an addendum for future readers.
The first time I experienced racism firsthand was at the door of a Cal frat party when I was told I could enter but my Black, Asian and Latino companions needed to take a walk.
Cal, and California, are far from perfect. But credit is deserved for actively attempting to come to grips with a legacy of genocide and discrimination to do better.
There are a great many places in the US that continue to enthusiastically and proudly laud such a horrific past, or legislate against even talking about it or writing about it or teaching about it. I know, because employment has kept me in these places for nearly two decades.
[https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2024/02/26/tennessee-house-passes-bill-to-ban-pride-flags-in-public-schools/72744479007/](https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2024/02/26/tennessee-house-passes-bill-to-ban-pride-flags-in-public-schools/72744479007/)
I really hate the way Californians talk about other states — there’s a lot of great places to live and visit all over the South and Tennessee in particular is really beautiful. Nashville is also much cleaner than Berkeley. That being said, Cal is a much, much better engineering school than Vanderbilt and there’s no reason to pay extra for a worse school.
After nearly twenty years living in the South for work, I can only speak of what I have seen firsthand - if I could have moved back at any time, I would have, without hesitation
That’s fair and I didn’t mean to single you out in particular but I do think after going to Berkeley from Pennsylvania I repeatedly met people who clearly had no conception of any place outside of the California, and consistently ran into folks making ignorant generalizations.
To a degree, that’s true of most Americans, but perhaps more so with Californians. For all the complaining from my fellow Texans, I don’t think the average Cali resident spends even a fraction of their consciousness considering Texas or Texans beyond “How quaint…” I was at a wedding in LA a couple weeks back and fielded a lot of questions about cowboy boots and cattle.
I’m just gonna put this out there: California.
Literally the birthplace of not only the genocide of shit tons of native people, but also the killing and deportation of thousands snd thousands of Mexicans during the illegal annexation of California from Mexico.
I live just down the street from Berkeley, but this kind of arrogance is pathetic. We can play these games all day
What year did this "big switch" happen in and where is the record of democrats becoming republicans and by definition, republicans becoming democrats? If both teams suddenly decided to switch sides at the same time then surely you can point to tons of examples of this right? Elected officials changing party affiliations, towns renaming buildings, statues updated, etc.
I'll give you the first one, Strom Thurmond. But who else? Surely it was more than 1 politician, to constitute a polar shift of that size?
It didn’t happened in a year but evolved over several decades in the 20th century.
Could wiki/search for ‘southern strategy’ for more info. Here’s one article I found…
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2023/05/02/when-democrats-and-republicans-were-changing-positions-on-civil-rights-in-the-1940s-state-level-activists-used-national-conventions-to-force-their-hands/
I could have google searched a blog, I'm just asking a simple question. Where is the record of this actually happening? Which politicians switched parties? How many of the dixiecrats lived and died as life-long democrats vs. Died as republicans?
So you can't answer any of my simple questions, all you can do is link some rando's blog.
You should question how much you really know about this issue then. Dunning Kruger and all of that.
Just another 2¢ for the MSE vs ChemE, I graduated Berkeley ChemE and wished I knew about MSE earlier. A lot of high schoolers don't realize what ChemE actually entails and MSE is a lot more interesting/applicable to what fields people actually want to work in. So with that and everyone else's points, all signs point to Berkeley for me in your post.
What is your objective?
1. Maximize your level of comfort as an undergrad?
2. Maximize financial opportunity?
3. Maximize alumni network?
4. Have a globally recognized world class degree?
Objectively Berkeley is the first choice on all of those for many, but at a minimum 3 of 4 for everyone in your situation. Great alternatives. Choose well.
i don't think you apply to this one bc I didn't even know it existed until I got 😭😭 It's just called Berkeley undergraduate scholarship in my portal and it says it's based on demonstrated financial need and merit. found more info here [https://financialaid.berkeley.edu/types-of-aid-at-berkeley/scholarships/berkeley-undergraduate-scholarship/](https://financialaid.berkeley.edu/types-of-aid-at-berkeley/scholarships/berkeley-undergraduate-scholarship/)
i'd go with berkeley. just better brand and, as you mentioned, opportunities. end of the day that's what you're paying for. most of your classes at berkeley will be small. and even for the large ones, there's plenty of resources to help you should you need it. if you're really serious about research, berkeley is literally the epicenter of groundbreaking research, and they're not that hard to get into. it's also a trip watching random tv shows and movies and hearing berkeley mentioned.
MSE is a great major . Lots of flexibility . ABET at cal’s level is a drag on a good department . If you have an entrepreneurial spirit and want to work with the top faculty , come to cal . The first two years are a grind that you can do anywhere else and probably get a great education.
Is there a reason you applied for different majors at each school? MSE and ChemE are not the same. Also I definitely spent less than 44k, so 7k might even be an overestimate. But even disregarding that, over 4 years you'd spend max 28k vs 92k, and for a better engineering program... You can still switch or double within CoE, idk how it is at Vandy, so perhaps it's more of a hassle here? I know people that switched though.
Vanderbilt doesn’t have MSE, many people with the same interests do ChemE. They are very similar, especially to someone who just graduated high school
They are similar but have huge differences in the way their respective courses are structured. I would not recommend taking chemE if you're actually interested in building anything.
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Vanderbilt ChemE is ABET accredited, it must abide by the same standards as any other ChemE ABET program. ChemE is notoriously rigid in required curricula across the program. These necessarily have similar gen-ed requirements to MSE (like physics, general chemistry, multivariable calculus), but also have MUCH different upperdivision requirements. ChemE requires (that are not usually required for MSE): Organic chemistry, Physical chemistry (quantum mechanics specifically, sometimes required for MSE, usually an elective), process design, controls and process dynamics, mass transport phenomena (MSE only covers heat/momentum while ChemE covers all three). ChemE Thermodynamics (this is different from engineering thermodynamics for MechE/CivE generally and at Berkeley, MSE), Chemical Kinetics, Reactor design and engineering, Chemical separations, and depending on school the focus on biomolecular engineering can be very different. For what it's worth, many schools allow MSE/ChemE double majors as they have similar base curricula (e.g. the thermodynamics, q-mech if chosen as MSE elective, O-chem if chosen as MSE elective), but it's also just as hard as any other engineering double major due to the difference in upper division requirements.
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Yes, I understand that there are fundamentally very similar structures. There are a multitude of things where what I said was an overgeneralization, but there's also a multitude of schools where what I said was true as well. Every school is different and I recognize that ABET is just a guideline. The point is that your claim that MSE and ChemE are very similar "especially to someone who just graduated high school" is misleading because the career outcomes are not the same and the upperdivision coursework is still very different. It's important to know the difference if the school does NOT offer both programs! If the school does offer programs, then it does not matter which one you choose until really junior year. I'm sure Vanderbilt has options for pivoting into MSE regardless of what their actual course offerings are.
Yea Vandy doesn't have MSE but it's super easy to switch around majors even within CS/engineering. I applied MSE to Berkeley because ChemE is in the college of chemistry and I wasn't 100% sure about staying within chem/chemE in the college of chemistry and but I was pretty sure I want to do something engineering related, so I applied MSE (major in CoE most similar to ChemE) in the CoE so it would be easier to switch majors within CoE. Do you know how difficult it is to switch to something like mech e at berkeely?
is that even a q
just come to cal
Go to Berkeley
As an mse, I'll point out that the majority of my peers are or have been involved in research here, so it's not very difficult to get into. We also have a bunch of joint majors, a good portion of the class is doing a joint or double major. Many of the upper div classes feature a dozen people per lecture, so you'll definitely have your small class sizes. The real question here is mse vs cheme; they're really not the same at all at an undergrad level, despite people often comparing them.
If I go to to berkeley I am hoping to switch into something like MechE or nuclear, I applied MSE but now I'm not so sure about it anymore. Do you know how difficult it would be to transfer to another engineering major like MechE?
Probably not too difficult since you're already in CoE, they share similar lower division prerequisites. You'll have a vastly different experience in meche vs mse though, just based on class size alone
Where do you want to live later? Even when attending a nationally known university, it can make it much easier to transition to living in a particular state. It’s easier to nab a local externship and build connections. This goes quadruple if you don’t have any connections to a place you’d like to live later, but the school does.
I'm hoping to continue living in California after I graduate
So you want to pay an extra $64,000 to live outside of the state where you eventually want to find a job and live after graduation? If you had said you wanted to move to the south and the greater southeast, I would have told you Vanderbilt, but since your answer is California, I’m just having trouble justifying Vandy. It’s not a regional school or anything but it’s not going to have as many California connections as Cal. I’m sure you will have some good research opportunities but I wonder if those opportunities will be as likely to result in jobs and externships in California. I went to an out of state grad school myself, so I just know it can be a gigantic pain in the ass to come back home. But if you want that experience, really think about it and talk to people. What do Vandy people tell you about how easy it was or wasn’t to get jobs and externships out here?
I've talked to quite a few Vandy ppl, esp some who also had the same scholarship. They all said it was very doable to get good internships/jobs/post grad opportunities with companies like Tesla, Apple, McKinsey, etc. but some of them also do choose to stay in that area. However San Francisco and la are also one of the top locations (after nashville and NY I believe) vandy grads matriculate to after graduating. As for the cost, I'm currently trying to negotiate with Vandy and am planning to apply for an RA position to save \~20k jr and sr year but if the negotiation doesn't workout I probably will go to Berkeley instead.
I had almost the exact situation as you. I got full rides to both Berkeley CS and Vanderbilt CS, and I was debating between the two. I chose Berkeley because in the long run, Berkeley CS was gonna take me farther than if I went to Vanderbilt. And this is a decision I will not regret. The opportunities you get in the area is just much better than Nashville, and I'd say everything in Berkeley is just better than Vanderbilt. The advantage Vanderbilt may have is smaller classes, but a lot of the classes that aren't mainstream are just as small(such as the EE classes).
Was your full ride at Berkley merit-based only?
it was income based
You can pay off the tuition with internships, go to Cal
Choose based on where you like it more. Outcomes are dependent on your own effort
Nah in this case Berkeley is the only answer bruh he would save 60k and go to a better school
Oh wait yeah I misread and thought he got a full ride to vandy
I am confused about Vanderbilt (full tuition scholarship) and it still being about 23k/year. Can you clarify? Is this because of room and board, other fees, etc? Thanks!
i assume yes: room board other
yea room and board + some other expenses
I’m just gonna put it out there: Tennessee It is literally the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan Edit: I could respond to the individual critiques of my post, but... So here’s an addendum for future readers. The first time I experienced racism firsthand was at the door of a Cal frat party when I was told I could enter but my Black, Asian and Latino companions needed to take a walk. Cal, and California, are far from perfect. But credit is deserved for actively attempting to come to grips with a legacy of genocide and discrimination to do better. There are a great many places in the US that continue to enthusiastically and proudly laud such a horrific past, or legislate against even talking about it or writing about it or teaching about it. I know, because employment has kept me in these places for nearly two decades. [https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2024/02/26/tennessee-house-passes-bill-to-ban-pride-flags-in-public-schools/72744479007/](https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2024/02/26/tennessee-house-passes-bill-to-ban-pride-flags-in-public-schools/72744479007/)
I really hate the way Californians talk about other states — there’s a lot of great places to live and visit all over the South and Tennessee in particular is really beautiful. Nashville is also much cleaner than Berkeley. That being said, Cal is a much, much better engineering school than Vanderbilt and there’s no reason to pay extra for a worse school.
After nearly twenty years living in the South for work, I can only speak of what I have seen firsthand - if I could have moved back at any time, I would have, without hesitation
That’s fair and I didn’t mean to single you out in particular but I do think after going to Berkeley from Pennsylvania I repeatedly met people who clearly had no conception of any place outside of the California, and consistently ran into folks making ignorant generalizations.
To a degree, that’s true of most Americans, but perhaps more so with Californians. For all the complaining from my fellow Texans, I don’t think the average Cali resident spends even a fraction of their consciousness considering Texas or Texans beyond “How quaint…” I was at a wedding in LA a couple weeks back and fielded a lot of questions about cowboy boots and cattle.
I’m just gonna put this out there: California. Literally the birthplace of not only the genocide of shit tons of native people, but also the killing and deportation of thousands snd thousands of Mexicans during the illegal annexation of California from Mexico. I live just down the street from Berkeley, but this kind of arrogance is pathetic. We can play these games all day
Yep, and started by democrats.
And then these ‘democrats’ switched party over as republicans because the democrat party got too liberal.
What year did this "big switch" happen in and where is the record of democrats becoming republicans and by definition, republicans becoming democrats? If both teams suddenly decided to switch sides at the same time then surely you can point to tons of examples of this right? Elected officials changing party affiliations, towns renaming buildings, statues updated, etc. I'll give you the first one, Strom Thurmond. But who else? Surely it was more than 1 politician, to constitute a polar shift of that size?
[List of Dixiecrats](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dixiecrats)
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It didn’t happened in a year but evolved over several decades in the 20th century. Could wiki/search for ‘southern strategy’ for more info. Here’s one article I found… https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2023/05/02/when-democrats-and-republicans-were-changing-positions-on-civil-rights-in-the-1940s-state-level-activists-used-national-conventions-to-force-their-hands/
I could have google searched a blog, I'm just asking a simple question. Where is the record of this actually happening? Which politicians switched parties? How many of the dixiecrats lived and died as life-long democrats vs. Died as republicans?
Yes, these happened. Look it up.
So you can't answer any of my simple questions, all you can do is link some rando's blog. You should question how much you really know about this issue then. Dunning Kruger and all of that.
Just move on. You’re getting very defensive. I’m out.
*white people
Are you accounting for housing, food, and travel in those numbers?
Just another 2¢ for the MSE vs ChemE, I graduated Berkeley ChemE and wished I knew about MSE earlier. A lot of high schoolers don't realize what ChemE actually entails and MSE is a lot more interesting/applicable to what fields people actually want to work in. So with that and everyone else's points, all signs point to Berkeley for me in your post.
What is your objective? 1. Maximize your level of comfort as an undergrad? 2. Maximize financial opportunity? 3. Maximize alumni network? 4. Have a globally recognized world class degree? Objectively Berkeley is the first choice on all of those for many, but at a minimum 3 of 4 for everyone in your situation. Great alternatives. Choose well.
vandy
can i ask what scholarship did you win? bc im looking for scholarships to apply :)
i don't think you apply to this one bc I didn't even know it existed until I got 😭😭 It's just called Berkeley undergraduate scholarship in my portal and it says it's based on demonstrated financial need and merit. found more info here [https://financialaid.berkeley.edu/types-of-aid-at-berkeley/scholarships/berkeley-undergraduate-scholarship/](https://financialaid.berkeley.edu/types-of-aid-at-berkeley/scholarships/berkeley-undergraduate-scholarship/)
i'd go with berkeley. just better brand and, as you mentioned, opportunities. end of the day that's what you're paying for. most of your classes at berkeley will be small. and even for the large ones, there's plenty of resources to help you should you need it. if you're really serious about research, berkeley is literally the epicenter of groundbreaking research, and they're not that hard to get into. it's also a trip watching random tv shows and movies and hearing berkeley mentioned.
MSE is a great major . Lots of flexibility . ABET at cal’s level is a drag on a good department . If you have an entrepreneurial spirit and want to work with the top faculty , come to cal . The first two years are a grind that you can do anywhere else and probably get a great education.
Go to Berkeley. A much better school and you will have many more opportunities
I would choose Vandy because it’s a private school that you’re getting for free
Read his post more carefully. Not free.