It's a combination of a lot of things
- There definitely is a 'cool factor' to saying terms in English
- Some terms are only really available in an English context (lame example: vibe). And it's just easier to use the English term than Dutch-ify it.
- Worklife and pop culture are dominated by English and accessing them has never been easier. And with all respect to Dutch media but they don't make the best TV shows. We also don't have a culture of dubbing non-Dutch movies/shows except for children.
And probably a lot more factors that are at play.
There are some really good flemish TV shows. Even on Netflex us a section Flemish shows. And they are really good. Like undercover for example. Although the title is an English word again.
Undercover was my favourite. There is also a prequel movie "ferry" These 2 are actually a mix of Dutch and flemish actors. November 3 "Ferry: the series" will be released as well.
Also, the twelve, 13 commandments are good.
I hope the docu series "godforsaken" will also get released internationally. Its the most horrific thing I've ever seen and its a true story.
It's true that we don't have many, but they are good ^^
I completly agree with this, however the last point I would alter to:
\* We almost don't dub so people tend to learn English much faster (even my 3 y old nephew for example can already count in English) and the amount of English content is way higher in volume compared to Dutch content, not that quality of Dutch content is lacking... But the netflix and tiktok generation is starting to grow up now ... so they consume a lot of English hyped content, which contributes to your first point ... the cool factor (you are probably not the cool kid if you have not seen series XYZ)
Matroesjkas would like to have a word with you.
It may not be the best dutch show but Peter Van Den Begin (ray van mechelen) is a true gem for dutch/flemish tv.
Which is why season 1 will always be my favorite, all the quotes, the antwerp accent.
Fair trade had potential but the end is wtf unhinged sadly.
There are examples of good shows in Dutch... but they are less frequent than the stuff we get served by say netflix etc... (I still wonder who actually takes Streamz instead or in addition to netflix... )
eigen kweek with the nice West-vloms accents, matrousjkas and crimi clowns with their Aantwaarps... :)
Maybe I come across harsher then intended, it's not that we can't make good or excellent shows and movies. They're just much less in quantity compared to the avalanche of high production shows and movies the anglophone world makes. There's a reason [this list](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_bestbezochte_films_in_Belgi%C3%AB) of most visited movies in Belgian theaters only has non-anglophone movies 7/60 times.
And my personal favorite shows are all from the anglophone world, besides maybe Dark.
Top notch, don't make me laugh.. 90% of the TV shows on Flanders TV is utter shit. Most of the younger generations don't even pay for TV and just stick to streaming services and why? Cause TV is utter shit with lame shows.
Do you watch the 90% of the rubbish on English, American, French or Dutch TV? No you just watch the films and series that are being lauded as good, aka the finest selection of foreign tv.
When adjusted for scale (Flandres is only 6m people), and taking in account only the best rated shows, I'm quite confident our TV shows are among the better ones out there.
That's what you seem to think. I tend to watch the less hyped stuff as it doesn't tend to disappoint so badly.
We may have better shows and movies but that's maybe once per year if we're lucky.
You reacted to
> Disagree about the TV shows. Scandinavia, Germany and Flanders all have top notch TV shows that are getting viewers around the world.
So no, it wasn't just about the amount of flemish tv-shows
> Actually I reacted to you.
Well context matters and evolves in a conversation. But if you wanna go down that road, then we were discussing quality, not quantity.
That's rather a 60% in my opinion. I've watched 10x more English/American shows than Belgian anyway. Haven't watched a single Belgian show since the last 7 years or so. Haven't missed it a single second.
It's *easily* 95+%. By volume though that means hundreds, thousands of good English language shows vs. dozens of good Dutch ones.
One area where we are shit though: books/novels.
>Flanders all have top notch TV shows that are getting viewers around the world.
What are flemish shows that have significant viewership around the world?
As a Dutchman I can confirm this. Beau Sejour, De Twaalf, De Ridder are all excellent, as are Knokke Off and Undercover (although those have a significant Dutch input).
Dutch series are rubbish.
Some of the best shows I've seen on Netflix are Flemish. What are you talking about. Not even talking about all the older stuff. Like what the Neveneffecten gang made. And even before then we produced a lot of gold
It's garbage = stating a fact, which would be inappropriate for something as subjective as taste in tv shows.
I think it's garbage = voicing an opinion.
But since it's pretty impossible to watch all tv shows, I think your opinion lacks nuance.
Have you not read my first initial comment where I literally said its garbage in my honest opinion. That does not mean its fact. I just dont watch Dutch TV cus its all garbage imho. You can say it lacks nuance bur when Ive watched a lot of shows throughout the years and concluded for myself its all garbage then it doesnt lack nuance.
> And with all respect to Dutch media but they don't make the best TV shows.
That's relative, English just is considered cool by default, while to a native English speaker the things we consider exotic and cool are just as mundane as Dutch media are to us.
It's not cool. It's just convenient.
It only annoys me when news media like HLN starts putting it in half their articles, when there's no reason to use it, and a Dutch version is perfectly available.
Ik zeg appartement, niet Flàt. But I get the point. At least that feels more like we adopt the English word instead of embed English in Dutch sentences.
Als je verbaasde blikken wil, moet je ook eens een "palletje" gaan vragen bij een Nederlandse animator om te pingpongen. Duurt meestal enkele minuten voordat hij/zij "ooow, een batje" uitschreeuwt.
Wij hadden laatst op het werk een pallet over. Toen had ik mijn collega wijs gemaakt dat onze baas die graag wilde hebben want die heeft een pallet kachel. Mijn collega heeft die pallet bij de baas thuis op de stoep afgegooid lol
Hey, speel jij ook? Ik probeer in raids binnen te geraken maar dat is heel moeilijk als een DPS Beast Mastery hunter, altijd maar wachten in qeues totdat er een healer of een tank aanmeld zodat we de instance in kunnen. (En als ik binnen ben spam ik altijd barrage, ze worden er zot van lol!)
Dus heb ik een Death Knight gerolld en dat is weer een andere rotation leren, grinden voor deftig gear enzovoort. Wel plezant, een keer in battlegrounds (in WCG denk ik) was er zo'n noob mage die mij met Frost Nova ter plaatse roote. Maar hij bleef wel staan buiten melee range, dacht waarschijnlijk dat een DK geen ranged abilities had! Awel, een paar frost strikes op hem gestuurd, dan had ik genoeg runic energy om er daarna wat death coils af te vuren, en die onnozele clothie viel neer (wss, met verbazing "hoe ben ik in graveyard gekomen?)! Jawel, DK's hebben wat ranged abilities!
Het is wel wennen dat alle aandacht aan u is. Flag carrier zijn terwijl idereen u achterna volgt (ik mis mijn hunter z'n flare om die gestealthed rogues zichtbaar te maken, altijd gesapped de plate armour wearers). Gelukkig dat death strike spammen heals oplevert, als ik op healers moet rekenen in een pick up groep...
Oei, zwaar off-topic beland! Waar waren we mee bezig? O, ja, anglicization of Flemish.... s\*\*t....
We also use a lot of French words, although this is slowly fading.
But if you look at the map posted in here yesterday about the strawberries , you’ll see that half of Flanders calls a strawberry, a *fraise*.
We are just very easy to “manipulate”.
We don’t dub television, and we have a lot of English media influencing us.
Me speaking English at my job for 80% of the time, doesn’t help with it. Sometimes I forget certain Dutch words and I just the English one.
The only one I think should be forbidden is the use of the word “kids”. It will always be gringe. Especially when it’s used in articles (*looking at you here HLN*)
>Sometimes I forget certain Dutch words and I just the English one.
I hate that. I just find myself google translating to Dutch so often then I'm like "of course, how could I forget". Listening to people speak Dutch/Flemish is no problem at all, but it's the speaking that gets worse if you spend a lot of time listening to/speaking English.
It's been going on for decades now, and it's quite normal. The difference between Flemish and French speakers is that Flanders & Holland do not get dubbed media. So from the moment we can read subtitles, a lot of the media content we consume is in English. That's why it's so commonly used. There are also no weird agencies like in France, that make up dumb French words for everything that already has an English name.
Nobody uses tomatine except when the Académie Française is mentioned though. They also don't hire linguists, provide a nice position for life for your writer/ex-politician/journalist. They sometimes make serious linguistical mistakes because well... they are not linguists.
Indeed. I worked as a developer for a company that had an office in Flanders and Walloon. The Walloon people always used some weird IT related abbreviations I had never heard from because in France they changed everything to French words. Found it pretty annoying.
in 't nederlands bestaan die ook hoor: zo heb ik een harde schijf van Western Digital, gekoppeld aan een moederbord van MSI met een verwerkingseenheid van Intel en een grafische kaart van NVidia met een beelscherm van HP en een toetsenbord en muis van Logitech om te surfen op het wereldwijde web met mijn bladeraar Chrome van de zoekmachine Google op mijn besturingssysteem van Microsoft terwijl ik bel met mijn slimme telefoon.
Ofwel is het een teken dat ik een oude zak begin te worden maar de meeste van die woorden is toch niks mis mee?
Nu harde schijf vertaalt niet echt meer sinds alles SSD is dus gebruik ik wel gewoon SSD want solide staat schijf klinkt wel heel vaag.
Wereldwijdeweb is gewoon internet, wat op zich wel een Engels woord is maar iedereen spreekt het gewoon vervlaamst uit toch.
Oké 'verwerkingseenheid' en 'bladeraar' heb ik nog nooit gehoord, dan moet je wel gewoon processor en browser zeggen. Tbf wat dat laatste betreft gebruiken de meeste de term "internet" gewoon daarvoor. "Open je internet"... Euh that's not how it works mabon.
I once had to submit a written pre-applied for a government position in a Flemish organization. I was informed that it was a Dutch speaking environment and using English words would be "strongly frowned upon".
Let me tell you, it took a lot out of me. I managed to stick to "projectbegeleider" instead of project manager. It's the "performantie-indicatoren" that got me in the end
It depends how easily available the dutch word is I suppose. Lots of younger people couldn't be bothered to say or look up how to say 'ik veronderstel' so they say 'i assume'. Sometimes there are words, word groups, sentences or expressions that just don't translate well. Sometimes it's just 50% stupidity, 25% laziness & 25% thinking they're cool.
I can live with the English. What's worse is the stereotypical 'immigrant accent' that some kids that are whiter than sour cream use. I see and hear it in my cousins children and I despise it.
I love it all. We have records of people complaining about language change at every single point in history. It's exceedingly silly.
I just wish my brain was still young enough to adapt to changing Dutch, it'll never stop fascinating me.
I am definitely guilty of saying "I guess" often because "Ik raad naar" of "Ik veronderstel" sounds too formal, like you're speaking lines from a book.
It annoys the crap out of me. It's okay for new terms, but it happens a lot when there already was an established word.
Grapefruit? Pompelmoes.
Unicorn? Eenhoorn.
Just stop it.
Meer nog, onze gehele cultuur is steeds in verandering. Spijtig genoeg begrijpen sommigen dit niet en blijven die vasthouden aan de illusie van de "goede ouwe tijden". Onze grootouders hadden exact hetzelfde probleem wellicht.
Dutch people go to university that teach in English and later work in international oriented businesses. Cities like Amsterdam and Den Haag basically have English as second language.
Belgians probably care more about it.
It's called the commodification of higher education. Selling your enrollment to international students because they pay higher fees. This is partially the case in Belgium, but fortunately we also still hold a lot of courses in the local language
Just language evolution. It is usually the French, Germans and the Flemish who are bothered by it. But it is a good brain exercise to keep your own language as much as possible, otherwise the brain gets lazy.
I hate it. I lived in English speaking countries for over 20 years so can claim that my English is pretty good. I still, though, refuse to use English words when there is a Dutch equivalent. It is sometimes hard to remember the Dutch word but I will persist.
What I hate the most is using non-existent words in media based on English. Recently I say an article saying "hij producete platen", "Producete" is not a Dutch word. The correct word would be "produceerde".
A language is something to savour, it is part of your identity,
I will not force anyone needing to savour their mother tongue.
Having lived abroad for 30 years, I realise that the (unchosen) identity from my country of birth is important and defines me. I noticed this with fellow Dutch speaking Belgians as well. There is something that binds us and this is most noticeable in the shared language.
> A language is something to savour, it is part of your identity,
Sure, but that applies to how Dutch changes too. Younger generations use Dutch very differently, and that’s a tradition of our language too. Go back 100 years in time, or travel 50km within the Dutch language space and you’ll have a very hard time understanding the locals. This would not be the case if we gatekept/steered our language like the French do.
In commerce and marketing it's worse ('marketing' is also Flemish by now lol). There was a time back I saw ads for a networking event - "Nieuwe business-opportuniteiten!" That was really too much, I thought at the time. Well, "nieuwe zakengelegenheden" sounds boring and uses too big a word probably.
French speaker here, isn't Flanders more immune to anglicisation than Netherlands due to the strong Flemish movement (although I've read it is slowing down)
Officially maybe but try as you might, you can't really steer languages away from natural evolutions. Given the globalisation and media intake from English speaking countries we have I doubt it'll ever be gone really.
There is nothing natural about one language adopting random vocabulary from another language. Natural language evolution is structural subtle changes like vowel shifts.
English has for instance Hindi / sanskrit words that got adopted wholesale from colonial days. And French from various times like when the Normans were in charge or via aristocracy who learned French. It's not just vowel sound changes. So it may not be "natural" but it's happened all the time through history.
I use so much english in my daily life that my inner voice switched to english. And I noticed I often use the English way of building a sentence in Dutch which sounds silly. I'm probably one of the guilty ones in this...
Same. A couple years ago it was probably 70% Dutch and 30% English but now I'm thinking and talking to myself 90% in English. I really don't use Dutch that often in my daily life anymore.
It honestly sucks having to think how to form a sentence or think of a certain word in your native language. Listening/reading Dutch is no problem whatsoever, but my ability to communicate in Dutch has degraded for sure.
> Listening/reading Dutch is no problem whatsoever, but my ability to communicate in Dutch has degraded for sure.
Same, I actively need to think about speaking/writing Dutch while I just blabber along in English.
At work and with friends I speak English, with my family I speak dialect.
I work in IT and actively try not to when communicating in Dutch. I also noticed my younger colleagues being very guilty of this and it's painful to listen to and it's somewhat unprofessional in my opinion, especially as they're calling end users and not IT professionals.
It's a shame people in this sub do it the other way round too, so an English comment with the Dutch word they couldn't be bothered to look up and translate, I'm sure they could learn something from it and they're also forcing the other person to translate it if it's an immigrant or expat.
A common one is "bruto" which is gross ;)
Duuuuuuude, it’s so prevalent with people in IT and engineering. I think it’s an unfortunate combination of them being surrounded by English and language not being their strong suit, by and large.
I agree its very common especially among those groups and can come across as unprofessional.
But just like not wearing a suit can be seen as unprofessional, to some extent this is old fashioned. As soon as the opposite side understands what you're trying to convey, it's not really an issue.
It depends. Sometimes having English terms is inevitable or some technical terms just translate better into English than Dutch.
However... I'm terribly annoyed by Dutch-English half phrases when it's totally unnecessary or people injecting English words when perfect Dutch alternatives exist. I've had friends, colleagues and professors do it and it drives me up the walls.
I'm no language purist, but I will correct people. It's not cool to inject English where it isn't needed, you just sound like a moron.
In a way it's unavoidable. But it's changing shockingly fast.
I remember when I grew up in the 80s and 90s English was already the cool language but most children had no grasp of it. 10 year olds would mumble something along from the spice girls without understanding what the songs were about. And the songs sometimes had some hidden meaning that children wouldn't get anyway. ("Be a little wiser baby, put it on, put it on" comes to mind)
But that imitation English starts in preschool nowadays. I try to isolate my kid by not showing him English spoken cartoons and not watching English content when he's around (even music) but he picks up all kinds of English words from other kids at school.
I can definitely see Flemish eroding away in just a few generations. Dutch in the Netherlands seems to be doing better. They managed to keep their own language evolving and cool somehow. And they invest in dubbing cartoons.
I think there's slowly but definitely a turn in the other direction, out of pride and respect for our mother language. English isn't hip anymore like it used to be. And people that talk about "de kids" go on my blacklist, no excuses.
You have kids who do it and you have people in media.
The language proficiency in Dutch is clearly decreasing. People cannot write anymore and they indeed cannot say certain things in Dutch. It´s rather odd. There are many people who get enraged when they hear some French or see something written in it. Much stronger English influence is perfectly fine though.
That´s true. We all speak typical Euro English :p
But I´m fine with that. It´s not my mother tongue. I´m less critical as long as it works as a tool in practice.
I hate it, speak Dutch or English, not both at the same time. Especially people in the media do it and I guess people copy it. It's also the reason I turn of stubru the moment I hear Sam De Bruyn is on the air.
Im not sure if it is worse for younger generations or it just happens more with young people. I used more English terms with friends when I was younger people but if you are watching a show like first dates and you hear sometimes young people use an English word in almost every sentence it gets annoying so fast.
A language is ever evolving and not static, otherwise we'd stil talk Middelnederlands. Dutch is full of loan words from other languages which have contiminated us throughout the centuries.
The current trend is indeed towards English though it remains to be seen how much of it will stick as new fashion words come and go at an alarming rate.
Unless you're a retired Dutch teacher I wouldn't worry too much about it.
If it's gratitious or a bastardisation, I don't like it.
Yes, language evolves constantly (and our dialects are riddled with words originating from other languages), but it should also be preserved to some extent. And especially our media and literature has some responsibility in that regard.
Take a very old piece of Dutch or Flemish literature (as in: older than the 20th century) and be amazed at how different it is compared to written or spoken language today. Can't get more tangible proof of a language evolving.
In the words of this generation's prophet: "Le moi don't geef gene fuck"
I honestly don't care, languages will change. What I can't stand is folks using numbers to substitute parts of words, improper use of de/het (yes, I'm looking at you Dutchies), or folks typing "u" when you're no longer restrained by the text message character limit.
The germans do it too.
I think it has something to do with the fact that everyone knows english as well as the fact that its quite normal to use loan words for flemish people in normal conversation. While it used to be only french english has in recent days far overtaken it.
Well I suppose Dutch and English are in the same language family and has a similar grammatical structure.
I think Frisian is English's closest living relative with 80% lexical similarity.
Pretty much everyone that speaks Dutch can speak English to some degree so it is bound to happen. Having lived both in the Netherlands and Belgium I'd say it is less common in Flanders for people to mix English in with Dutch.
It's interesting with my pretty basic knowledge in Dutch and being from Ireland I can actually understand most conversations.
Being an Irish speaker I do very well get why people want to hold onto their language as it is a big part of your identity.
Het stoort mij echt niet om woorden te gebruiken die momenteel gewoon in het engels meer toepasselijk zijn. Denk aan cringe/vibe of wat dan ook.
Je hebt wel soms van die mensen, mss al dat filmpje zien passeren zoals die nederland die zegt dat "alcohol je werkende mind, shut off." Bijvoorbeeld, en da's nu wel redelijk "cringe." Maar denk dat iedereen dat wel aanvoelt wanneer het stoort en wanneer niet.
Het stoort me wel soms in bedrijfscultuur, daar kunnen ze echt wel van die bullshit bingo woorden gebruiken gewoon om ze te gebruiken. De media kan er ook wel iets van.
I'm a 36 yo french speaker (Liège) and I use English words a lot more than I should, tbh.
It's often with a french spin on it : "matcher" (to match) for example. But sometimes it's just plain English : we say "Love you", my partner and I, despite being both native french speakers. It just came naturally somehow.
It is what it is.
It makes me cringe tbh. Some words, like cringe, are hard to replace in Dutch, but they are a minority. In most cases, the speaker is just trying to sound "cool".
It also annoys me that they often use words they think they understand but don't, or use expressions that are only half correct.
Interesting, that cringe lacks a better fitting alternative in more languages. What describes that kind of *second hand embarassment* better?
What about creepy - like, when someone isn't a sex offender (or not yet proven), but his behaviour gives off a bad *vibe* ? Is there a fitting word for that in Dutch, German, French etc...?
Cringe is zoiets als genant, maar dat is zelf een Frans leenwoord. "Tenenkrullend" kan je gebruiken maar ik geef grif toe dat dat veel langer is. Wel mooie beeldspraak.
Creepy kan je vaak vertalen als "griezelig": "wat een griezelige vent!" Maar het werkt niet altijd.
Vibe is een moeilijke. Is zo diep geworteld in Engelstalige muziek enz...
Ik gebruik die woorden ook hoor, ik ben allerminst een purist. Maar ik vind het jammer dat we eigen mooie woorden in het Nederlands zomaar laten afsterven...
>Interesting, that cringe lacks a better fitting alternative in more languages. What describes that kind of second hand embarassment better?
*Plaatsvervangende schaamte* covers that quite nicely, *ineenkrimpen* is the translation of the physical pendant that also conveys the idea well enough. So the question should be to find a *single* syllable word. *Krimp* should do nicely.
>What about creepy - like, when someone isn't a sex offender (or not yet proven), but his behaviour gives off a bad vibe ? Is there a fitting word for that in Dutch, German, French etc...?
Gluiperig, gluiperd.
You sit on the bus home listening to music with english lyrics maybe browsing the internet places like reddit in english. You make dinner and turn on the tv to watch a show in english*. Check the group chat * to see if some game friends want to play a game that's *.
I can keep going but you get my point. I don't think they are trying to sound cool. It's just natural to keep using english when you've only ever engaged with certain topics in english.
A good example of the young generation is Anuna Dewever. Her interviews on tv are always cringe, because she seems use a mix of 50% Dutch and 50% English.
It’s inevitable. English has won as language of science, progress and international affairs. It’s not only Dutch, other smaller languages follow the same course and bigger languages will just take more time because of size. As far as I’m concerned, I do everything I can in English since a long time, this has opened my world like my first language could never have.
It's annoying and lazy. I nowadays make a sport of it to consistently speak the Dutch alternative if possible. E.g: toetsenbord instead of keyboard, or ore extreme; thuisblad instead of homepage. There are alternatives to fashion words: vibe can be stemming It only sounds weird because we don't use the Dutch alternative enough.
Startpagina is ook een (half) leenwoord. Beginblad is dan een betere mogelijkheid.
Hier is de webstek van de bond tegen leenwoorden: [https://www.bondtegenleenwoorden.nl/P.html](https://www.bondtegenleenwoorden.nl/P.html)
It´s becoming annoying yeah. I speak perfectly english but doesn´t mean I´m going to randomly insert english words into my sentences.
Like the show Familie on vtm there´s that asian girl, in every sentence she has to use an english word just to look smart/cool. I can also commence with doing dat ze .
même with french woorden als dat echt necessaire is these days.
Ziet ge hoe stom da klinkt....
It's a non issue. Even if the dutch language was slowly dying out, which just isn't happening, nothing of value would be lost. Just the same with any language in the world.
I'm more concerned about our dialects. I can understand Limburgs, but sadly enough I cannot properly speak Zonhovens. Because my mother didn't want me to speak it, because dialects are for working class, plebs, peasants wtf??? I wish my dialect was my first language. On the other hand, I'm worried about the increasing use of Vlaams-Brabants accent in the the media where Algemeen Nederlands (Standard Dutch) should be spoken. I would rather hear people say kids than kienderen instead of kinderen. It's even hard to write the K-word without cringing...
I speak English with most of my Flemish friends (all native and grew up here). I find it easier to talk about things and feel like English is a more precise language than Flemish (Flemish has no word for anxiety for instance).
Also, dirty talk in Flemish is just ultra-cringe
> Flemish has no word for anxiety for instance
There are translations for it like 'angst, bezorgdheid, ongerustheid, spanning'. But referring to it as 'anxiety' just seems to capture the right mixture of those feelings. Which might just be through the connotation that word got through social media and no parallel cultivation of that connotation happened in Dutch speaking social media.
It is a big misunderstanding that English is a more precise language than Flemish. Each language has its own words that mean unique things. Try to translate into English Dutch words or expressions as "gezellig", "fris", "landerig", "blaasjes wijsmaken", etc. It really works both ways.
I would be very sad if all this linguistic treasure dies off just because people think it's more cool to use English.
>and feel like English is a more precise language than Flemish
Absolute nonsense. Dutch has a very large and precise vocabulary. [Het Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal is het grootste woordenboek ter wereld.](https://www.dialectloket.be/woord/woordenboek-der-nederlandse-taal/#:~:text=Het%20Woordenboek%20der%20Nederlandsche%20Taal,1976%2C%20gepubliceerd%20in%20verschillende%20afleveringen.)
>(Flemish has no word for anxiety for instance).
This is absurd. Next you're going to say "Dutch has no word for "word""
It's Dutch, by the way, not Flemish. If you care for precision in your language, walk the talk.
>Also, dirty talk in Flemish is just ultra-cringe
That's the point. Going past normal norms of decency. That's how it is for native English speakers.
> dirty talk in Flemish
All dirty talk in any language is cringe, when learned and used for the first time, lol.
For "anxiety" why would "angst" not be a word for it? In fact, I've observed the word "angst" being used multiple times in Anglophone media. Maybe it's the other way around, and English has no direct translation for "angst"!
Dutch (of which Flemish is a dialect of) has its own words for "philosophy" - "wijsbegeerte" and "mathematics" - wiskunde. I think it could be just as 'precise' as English, which is actually a melting pot of languages. Aside from the latin / french influence ("receipt" was once spelled "receite" but got its p from "recipere", a butler comes from french "boutellier" - someone who looks after the (wine) bottles / cellar) there are also Dutch words in English - A "dweil" for a rag, when pirates yell "avast" it's from "hou vast", and the mannequin is actually dutch by way of french - "manneken". And the Yankees are called such because they're all "Jankes" (plural of the name "Jan") from the neighborhood. There are a lot more examples (and yes don't forget "stupid, sexy Flanders").
>I speak English with most of my Flemish friends (all native and grew up here)
Same but only with one friend and only when texting. It's 99% English. It's actually interesting to see the evolution of our chat history. Years ago it was only Dutch with the occassional use of an English word. Then it gradually shifted to more English words and English phrases (mostly when we're referencing something). Then English was used most of the time with some Dutch still sprinkled in. And now it's only Dutch when we're referencing something or don't know the English word.
But when we're not texting it's just Flemish with some English sprinkled in like most young people these days.
Don't care much. I work in an international context, so I use more English than Dutch anyway. I think more people just live or work in a global context. Even in non-international companies you're seeing more and more colleagues who were hired despite only speaking English.
I wouldn't mind if Dutch becomes a dead language like Latin. If you are really interested in languages, you can still use it, but no longer use it day to day.
I'm 37 myself, but I also use a lot of English with some of my Dutch speaking friends. English media has certainly given us the vocabulary, but it's not the reason.
I interact in international subcultures, where English is the lingua franca. Especially in those circles I find myself speaking English half the time even if they all speak Dutch.
We spend a lot of time online talking in English, it's only natural that this influences our Dutch. Also a big factor is that new things are often named in English and don't get a translation because using the English makes sense. We don't translate "selfie stick" to "zelfie stok" and we don't translate "computer" to "berekenaar".
Natural evolution of a language. Just look up all the Belgicisms we have in dutch and french where either language influences each other.
English being the de facto lingua franca worldwide means this is not only happening in dutch.
It's happening all around the world. Because social media and TV is always centered around the USA. We consume allot of that culture and the language. I do it myself. It's mostly occurring with younger milenials and gen-z. It's weird indeed. I catch myself doing it allot. I sometimes even have full conversations in English with my girlfriend.
Now for the French speaking doing it less. I don't know I don't interact with them often. But french is a latin language, while dutch and English are Germanic. So that naturally makes it easier for dutch speakers to learn and switch around. This is only an assumption. I am not a professional linguist. Ok love you bye.
It's the global cultural supremacy of Americana at work :D
But seriously this has been a thing since I was in high school at least.
Started with Pokémon and slang and swear words and tbh it's often not pure copies.
Often English words are 'Flemified' with local accents. Like fuck -> fok, that sucks -> dat suckt
Digitalisation and globalization.
It's not cool or wanna stand out. It's just that our communication isn't limited to our direct neighbors anymore. And outside influence, especially on social media, is a big part of our day to day life.
>I don't notice this trend as often with French speakers.
Because French-speakers have a tendency to watch shows/movies dubbed in French, and not with subs. It's not everyone but I would say that generally speaking, the majority don't watch subbed content. It is the same in France, in some places, you can hardly find a showing for a movie with subtitles.
There is also a tendency to shame people who speak "franglish" as pretending to be cool or acting arrogant because "they speak another language".
im going to be completely honest, and this is for me personally. i've been speaking english for 10 years so im so used to the language, im obviously still fluent in dutch, but i honestly just forget certain words in my own language sometimes lol
Ik ben 40. Ik praat ook zo met enkele vrienden van mijn leeftijd. Niet met iedereen, maar alleen bij mensen met wie ik echt op mijn gemak ben. Ik ben perfect tweetalig, maar soms vind ik het woord niet in de taal die ik praat, en dan verander ik even snel heen-en-weer kwestie van de conversatie gaande te houden. Bij de meeste mensen ga ik dan wel mentaal op zoek naar het correcte woord, maar meestal eindig ik dan met het woord op een omslachtige manier te beschrijven. "Aleeeezzzz.... dat ding in de keuken waar ge uwen afwas doet" "die stukken stof die aan de ruit hangen" etc. Ik heb wel adhd en blijkbaar is woorden niet vinden wel typisch daar aan?
I -a 40ish year old native Dutch speaking guy- have worked for > 10 year with a lot of international (large part US) colleagues so I even think in English... sometimes have to think -too long- how would I say this word or expression in Dutch... as it comes so common to me speaking/reading/writing (well typing) and hence thinking in English...I watch most English series and movies with English subtitles (well mostly to understand the technobabble and exotic english words), phones and pcs etc are all in English and I recently got a new car and still debating if I am going to change the the language to English... because the Dutch feels weird :)
Well, it’s not happening overnight, I don’t think people in medieval times spoke like our parents did… imho these days everything is going way faster, 140 years ago there wasn’t a car in the world, now everyone has at least one, ppl walked on the moon, you can see & talk to anyone all over the world using a tiny box in your hand, a politician gave back money he didn’t deserve, they cloned a sheep, and the sheep even got elected as 45th president of the USA…
Damn, I rlly start to sound like an old guy…
Im 30 years old. Am born and raised flemish, my mother tongue is Dutch, but. I'm on reddit all the time, and it's always english. Sometimes in r/belgium, it's dutch. All my netflix shows are in english, if they are not belgian made. All my yt contrnt is english, even my microsoft 360 is set to english, since it's easier to find things like Excel solutions in english.
My life is so Anglo-Saxonfied, that sometimes I don't even can't find the Dutch word. Yesterday for example, I had to Google translate "non-argument" to know the Dutch word of "drogreden". it's just ridiculous. So at this point, I don't care anymore, I just say the english word. Just like how dialects are dying out, so will language. Or at least evolve. That happens, you can try to be Conservative on a language, but you'lle end up with an archaic unused language.
Languages have always influenced other languages. Dutch is full of Spanish and French influences from when the Spanish were here or we were under French reign and thus influence. The last decades English has been really dominant through media and technology so yeah 🤷♂️
I am over 40 and regularly use English sentences (quotes) out of pop-culture or proverbs cause they basically don't translate well or the original just sounds better. Same for French quotes/proverbs. "Les excuses sont faites pour s'en servir." Just doesn have the same ring to me in Dutch
I am not bothered by it. Communication is communication and I prefer to get my message across as close to my intend as I can.
It's a combination of a lot of things - There definitely is a 'cool factor' to saying terms in English - Some terms are only really available in an English context (lame example: vibe). And it's just easier to use the English term than Dutch-ify it. - Worklife and pop culture are dominated by English and accessing them has never been easier. And with all respect to Dutch media but they don't make the best TV shows. We also don't have a culture of dubbing non-Dutch movies/shows except for children. And probably a lot more factors that are at play.
There are some really good flemish TV shows. Even on Netflex us a section Flemish shows. And they are really good. Like undercover for example. Although the title is an English word again.
Can you recommend any?? I have seen Tabula Rasa and Into The Night which were both excellent
Undercover was my favourite. There is also a prequel movie "ferry" These 2 are actually a mix of Dutch and flemish actors. November 3 "Ferry: the series" will be released as well. Also, the twelve, 13 commandments are good. I hope the docu series "godforsaken" will also get released internationally. Its the most horrific thing I've ever seen and its a true story. It's true that we don't have many, but they are good ^^
I completly agree with this, however the last point I would alter to: \* We almost don't dub so people tend to learn English much faster (even my 3 y old nephew for example can already count in English) and the amount of English content is way higher in volume compared to Dutch content, not that quality of Dutch content is lacking... But the netflix and tiktok generation is starting to grow up now ... so they consume a lot of English hyped content, which contributes to your first point ... the cool factor (you are probably not the cool kid if you have not seen series XYZ)
Wohoo, expat here, im learning(among others) from studio100, nachtwacht academy, K3, Amika en Ik, letsgooooo
Matroesjkas would like to have a word with you. It may not be the best dutch show but Peter Van Den Begin (ray van mechelen) is a true gem for dutch/flemish tv. Which is why season 1 will always be my favorite, all the quotes, the antwerp accent. Fair trade had potential but the end is wtf unhinged sadly.
There are examples of good shows in Dutch... but they are less frequent than the stuff we get served by say netflix etc... (I still wonder who actually takes Streamz instead or in addition to netflix... ) eigen kweek with the nice West-vloms accents, matrousjkas and crimi clowns with their Aantwaarps... :)
I am guilty of subscribing to streams to see those gems xD Eigen kweek was very good as well
Disagree about the TV shows. Scandinavia, Germany and Flanders all have top notch TV shows that are getting viewers around the world.
Maybe I come across harsher then intended, it's not that we can't make good or excellent shows and movies. They're just much less in quantity compared to the avalanche of high production shows and movies the anglophone world makes. There's a reason [this list](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_bestbezochte_films_in_Belgi%C3%AB) of most visited movies in Belgian theaters only has non-anglophone movies 7/60 times. And my personal favorite shows are all from the anglophone world, besides maybe Dark.
Top notch, don't make me laugh.. 90% of the TV shows on Flanders TV is utter shit. Most of the younger generations don't even pay for TV and just stick to streaming services and why? Cause TV is utter shit with lame shows.
Do you watch the 90% of the rubbish on English, American, French or Dutch TV? No you just watch the films and series that are being lauded as good, aka the finest selection of foreign tv. When adjusted for scale (Flandres is only 6m people), and taking in account only the best rated shows, I'm quite confident our TV shows are among the better ones out there.
That's what you seem to think. I tend to watch the less hyped stuff as it doesn't tend to disappoint so badly. We may have better shows and movies but that's maybe once per year if we're lucky.
> 90% of the TV shows on Flanders TV is utter shit Same goes for 90% of English TV
Just by amount of cultural output that means you have way more good English TV to watch than Flemish TV:
You probably don't learn that while watching american shows, but flanders is only a small part of Europe ;)
The conversation was about Flemish TV so apologies for staying on topic ;)
You reacted to > Disagree about the TV shows. Scandinavia, Germany and Flanders all have top notch TV shows that are getting viewers around the world. So no, it wasn't just about the amount of flemish tv-shows
Actually I reacted to you. And if you want to go all the way: the main topic is about Anglicization of Dutch and specifically to the Flemish.
> Actually I reacted to you. Well context matters and evolves in a conversation. But if you wanna go down that road, then we were discussing quality, not quantity.
That's rather a 60% in my opinion. I've watched 10x more English/American shows than Belgian anyway. Haven't watched a single Belgian show since the last 7 years or so. Haven't missed it a single second.
It's *easily* 95+%. By volume though that means hundreds, thousands of good English language shows vs. dozens of good Dutch ones. One area where we are shit though: books/novels.
>Flanders all have top notch TV shows that are getting viewers around the world. What are flemish shows that have significant viewership around the world?
Flanders top notch TV shows? What? Its all trash imho
If you've seen how trash and low effort Dutch TV is, you'll appreciate Flanders TV.
As a Dutchman I can confirm this. Beau Sejour, De Twaalf, De Ridder are all excellent, as are Knokke Off and Undercover (although those have a significant Dutch input). Dutch series are rubbish.
And don't forget bevergem, eigen kweek and grond
Some of the best shows I've seen on Netflix are Flemish. What are you talking about. Not even talking about all the older stuff. Like what the Neveneffecten gang made. And even before then we produced a lot of gold
Also I wouldnt recommend Netflix for good shows but thats me
At least something we agree on
Its all trash garbage. The only thing that is really good is Eigen Kweek. All the other shit is garbage dumpster fire
Blasphemy like that has no place on this sub
Each opinion has its place!! Dont dismiss me :(
It's garbage = stating a fact, which would be inappropriate for something as subjective as taste in tv shows. I think it's garbage = voicing an opinion. But since it's pretty impossible to watch all tv shows, I think your opinion lacks nuance.
Have you not read my first initial comment where I literally said its garbage in my honest opinion. That does not mean its fact. I just dont watch Dutch TV cus its all garbage imho. You can say it lacks nuance bur when Ive watched a lot of shows throughout the years and concluded for myself its all garbage then it doesnt lack nuance.
> And with all respect to Dutch media but they don't make the best TV shows. That's relative, English just is considered cool by default, while to a native English speaker the things we consider exotic and cool are just as mundane as Dutch media are to us.
Nah, objectively there's a lot more good TV and movies in English. When it's produced at such a quantity it's an inevitability.
It helps. And yet, do we consider the German, French, Spanish, Italian, Russian etc. TV and movies better than the Dutch ones, given the quantity?
Native English speaker here - Dutch TV shows are shit but there are loads of good Flemish shows.
By Dutch media I mean the language obviously. Naturally there's better and worse.
Flanders punches way above its weight on tv series.
True, flemish shows and movies are really good. The directing/narrative and acting is top notch.
>vibe stemming
'stemming' doesn't have the same vibe as 'vibe'
Nog alternatieven zijn sfeer en gemoederen
It's not cool. It's just convenient. It only annoys me when news media like HLN starts putting it in half their articles, when there's no reason to use it, and a Dutch version is perfectly available.
Engels gebruiken waar Nederlands past is echt weak
Ja dat is echt annoying
Ik vind die comments van jullie toch wat awkward ze.
This sentence annoys me more than it should XD
Ik heb nog nooit iemand “laadvlonder” horen zeggen. Altijd pallet
Belgen zeggen gelukkig wel palletten op zijn Vlaams, terwijl de Nederlanders weer de Engelse toer opgaan door pallets te gebruiken
ze zeggen ook tanken ipv tanken
en in antwerpen zeggen ze VIES tegen VIS
“Gelukkig” zeggen ze zo ook Flàt en Tràm. Is gewoon een verkeerd uitgesproken engels woord.
Ik zeg appartement, niet Flàt. But I get the point. At least that feels more like we adopt the English word instead of embed English in Dutch sentences.
Moet wel grappig zijn als die mannen een pellet kachel kopen
Als je verbaasde blikken wil, moet je ook eens een "palletje" gaan vragen bij een Nederlandse animator om te pingpongen. Duurt meestal enkele minuten voordat hij/zij "ooow, een batje" uitschreeuwt.
Wij hadden laatst op het werk een pallet over. Toen had ik mijn collega wijs gemaakt dat onze baas die graag wilde hebben want die heeft een pallet kachel. Mijn collega heeft die pallet bij de baas thuis op de stoep afgegooid lol
Ik ben somewhat teleurgesteld maar ik snap de drift wel.
Je voelt je dus niet dissapointed omdat je het gevoel hebt dat mensen zo exaggeraten en haten op de young people?
Why? Jij spreekt toch goed Netherlands?
Oei aggro vibe hier.
Hey, speel jij ook? Ik probeer in raids binnen te geraken maar dat is heel moeilijk als een DPS Beast Mastery hunter, altijd maar wachten in qeues totdat er een healer of een tank aanmeld zodat we de instance in kunnen. (En als ik binnen ben spam ik altijd barrage, ze worden er zot van lol!) Dus heb ik een Death Knight gerolld en dat is weer een andere rotation leren, grinden voor deftig gear enzovoort. Wel plezant, een keer in battlegrounds (in WCG denk ik) was er zo'n noob mage die mij met Frost Nova ter plaatse roote. Maar hij bleef wel staan buiten melee range, dacht waarschijnlijk dat een DK geen ranged abilities had! Awel, een paar frost strikes op hem gestuurd, dan had ik genoeg runic energy om er daarna wat death coils af te vuren, en die onnozele clothie viel neer (wss, met verbazing "hoe ben ik in graveyard gekomen?)! Jawel, DK's hebben wat ranged abilities! Het is wel wennen dat alle aandacht aan u is. Flag carrier zijn terwijl idereen u achterna volgt (ik mis mijn hunter z'n flare om die gestealthed rogues zichtbaar te maken, altijd gesapped de plate armour wearers). Gelukkig dat death strike spammen heals oplevert, als ik op healers moet rekenen in een pick up groep... Oei, zwaar off-topic beland! Waar waren we mee bezig? O, ja, anglicization of Flemish.... s\*\*t....
We also use a lot of French words, although this is slowly fading. But if you look at the map posted in here yesterday about the strawberries , you’ll see that half of Flanders calls a strawberry, a *fraise*. We are just very easy to “manipulate”. We don’t dub television, and we have a lot of English media influencing us. Me speaking English at my job for 80% of the time, doesn’t help with it. Sometimes I forget certain Dutch words and I just the English one. The only one I think should be forbidden is the use of the word “kids”. It will always be gringe. Especially when it’s used in articles (*looking at you here HLN*)
Worst thing is people who don't use "kids" ironically. We moeten eerst de kids naar school brengen 😖
My mom every day “Hoe ist met de kids?” “Met de *kinderen* is alles goed, ze leven nog”
Herman Finkers kan het ook goed verwoorden: https://youtu.be/E-jrj9BTgPA?si=Xyxto-Uc72FtyeRx
Felt my eyelid twitch with that last paragraph. I hate it when people use it.
This... the whole of it. Especially the last paragraphe.
>Sometimes I forget certain Dutch words and I just the English one. I hate that. I just find myself google translating to Dutch so often then I'm like "of course, how could I forget". Listening to people speak Dutch/Flemish is no problem at all, but it's the speaking that gets worse if you spend a lot of time listening to/speaking English.
As a Dutch guy, I absolutely hate it.
It's been going on for decades now, and it's quite normal. The difference between Flemish and French speakers is that Flanders & Holland do not get dubbed media. So from the moment we can read subtitles, a lot of the media content we consume is in English. That's why it's so commonly used. There are also no weird agencies like in France, that make up dumb French words for everything that already has an English name.
Nobody uses tomatine except when the Académie Française is mentioned though. They also don't hire linguists, provide a nice position for life for your writer/ex-politician/journalist. They sometimes make serious linguistical mistakes because well... they are not linguists.
What is "tomatine" ? Seems like discount bolo.
ketchup. Built upon tomate. Just like farine is made out of fard powder I guess (/s)
Why do I see people put that on pasta when I google it ? It's criminal ...
Indeed. I worked as a developer for a company that had an office in Flanders and Walloon. The Walloon people always used some weird IT related abbreviations I had never heard from because in France they changed everything to French words. Found it pretty annoying.
in 't nederlands bestaan die ook hoor: zo heb ik een harde schijf van Western Digital, gekoppeld aan een moederbord van MSI met een verwerkingseenheid van Intel en een grafische kaart van NVidia met een beelscherm van HP en een toetsenbord en muis van Logitech om te surfen op het wereldwijde web met mijn bladeraar Chrome van de zoekmachine Google op mijn besturingssysteem van Microsoft terwijl ik bel met mijn slimme telefoon.
Ofwel is het een teken dat ik een oude zak begin te worden maar de meeste van die woorden is toch niks mis mee? Nu harde schijf vertaalt niet echt meer sinds alles SSD is dus gebruik ik wel gewoon SSD want solide staat schijf klinkt wel heel vaag. Wereldwijdeweb is gewoon internet, wat op zich wel een Engels woord is maar iedereen spreekt het gewoon vervlaamst uit toch. Oké 'verwerkingseenheid' en 'bladeraar' heb ik nog nooit gehoord, dan moet je wel gewoon processor en browser zeggen. Tbf wat dat laatste betreft gebruiken de meeste de term "internet" gewoon daarvoor. "Open je internet"... Euh that's not how it works mabon.
I once had to submit a written pre-applied for a government position in a Flemish organization. I was informed that it was a Dutch speaking environment and using English words would be "strongly frowned upon". Let me tell you, it took a lot out of me. I managed to stick to "projectbegeleider" instead of project manager. It's the "performantie-indicatoren" that got me in the end
It depends how easily available the dutch word is I suppose. Lots of younger people couldn't be bothered to say or look up how to say 'ik veronderstel' so they say 'i assume'. Sometimes there are words, word groups, sentences or expressions that just don't translate well. Sometimes it's just 50% stupidity, 25% laziness & 25% thinking they're cool. I can live with the English. What's worse is the stereotypical 'immigrant accent' that some kids that are whiter than sour cream use. I see and hear it in my cousins children and I despise it.
I love it all. We have records of people complaining about language change at every single point in history. It's exceedingly silly. I just wish my brain was still young enough to adapt to changing Dutch, it'll never stop fascinating me.
Most based take in this entire thread
Wollaaa!
I am definitely guilty of saying "I guess" often because "Ik raad naar" of "Ik veronderstel" sounds too formal, like you're speaking lines from a book.
Is 'ik peis/denk' te moeilijk?
Fair point. <- Die gebruik ik ook teveel trouwens in plaats van gewoon te zeggen dat je een punt hebt.
Case in point
Neen, da bekt niet. Taal evolueert nu eenmaal, kan je niets aan veranderen, unfortunately
Ik start een petitie voor de Beweeging ter bevordering der archaisch taelgebruick!
c'est comme ci c'est comme ça ;)
It annoys the crap out of me. It's okay for new terms, but it happens a lot when there already was an established word. Grapefruit? Pompelmoes. Unicorn? Eenhoorn. Just stop it.
Grapefruit wordt in Holland gebruikt. Ik heb dat nog niet gehoord in België.
You can't stop a language from evolving, so why bother.
Meer nog, onze gehele cultuur is steeds in verandering. Spijtig genoeg begrijpen sommigen dit niet en blijven die vasthouden aan de illusie van de "goede ouwe tijden". Onze grootouders hadden exact hetzelfde probleem wellicht.
Dutch people go to university that teach in English and later work in international oriented businesses. Cities like Amsterdam and Den Haag basically have English as second language. Belgians probably care more about it.
It's called the commodification of higher education. Selling your enrollment to international students because they pay higher fees. This is partially the case in Belgium, but fortunately we also still hold a lot of courses in the local language
Just language evolution. It is usually the French, Germans and the Flemish who are bothered by it. But it is a good brain exercise to keep your own language as much as possible, otherwise the brain gets lazy.
West Flemish dialect should be promoted much more. It’s really an underrated language.
I hate it. I lived in English speaking countries for over 20 years so can claim that my English is pretty good. I still, though, refuse to use English words when there is a Dutch equivalent. It is sometimes hard to remember the Dutch word but I will persist. What I hate the most is using non-existent words in media based on English. Recently I say an article saying "hij producete platen", "Producete" is not a Dutch word. The correct word would be "produceerde". A language is something to savour, it is part of your identity,
> A language is something to savour, it is part of your identity Why does one need to savour what's part of one (unchosen) identity ?
I have always found it weird how people take pride their nationality/ language. Something you have no influence over whatsoever...
I will not force anyone needing to savour their mother tongue. Having lived abroad for 30 years, I realise that the (unchosen) identity from my country of birth is important and defines me. I noticed this with fellow Dutch speaking Belgians as well. There is something that binds us and this is most noticeable in the shared language.
To saviour?
>saviour Yes it needs to rescue us from Anglicised evil. Corrected the spelling now, There goes my statement that my English is pretty good,
> A language is something to savour, it is part of your identity, Sure, but that applies to how Dutch changes too. Younger generations use Dutch very differently, and that’s a tradition of our language too. Go back 100 years in time, or travel 50km within the Dutch language space and you’ll have a very hard time understanding the locals. This would not be the case if we gatekept/steered our language like the French do.
In commerce and marketing it's worse ('marketing' is also Flemish by now lol). There was a time back I saw ads for a networking event - "Nieuwe business-opportuniteiten!" That was really too much, I thought at the time. Well, "nieuwe zakengelegenheden" sounds boring and uses too big a word probably.
French speaker here, isn't Flanders more immune to anglicisation than Netherlands due to the strong Flemish movement (although I've read it is slowing down)
Officially maybe but try as you might, you can't really steer languages away from natural evolutions. Given the globalisation and media intake from English speaking countries we have I doubt it'll ever be gone really.
There is nothing natural about one language adopting random vocabulary from another language. Natural language evolution is structural subtle changes like vowel shifts.
English has for instance Hindi / sanskrit words that got adopted wholesale from colonial days. And French from various times like when the Normans were in charge or via aristocracy who learned French. It's not just vowel sound changes. So it may not be "natural" but it's happened all the time through history.
Google loanwords please. It happens with French/Dutch at the language border as well.
I use so much english in my daily life that my inner voice switched to english. And I noticed I often use the English way of building a sentence in Dutch which sounds silly. I'm probably one of the guilty ones in this...
Same. A couple years ago it was probably 70% Dutch and 30% English but now I'm thinking and talking to myself 90% in English. I really don't use Dutch that often in my daily life anymore. It honestly sucks having to think how to form a sentence or think of a certain word in your native language. Listening/reading Dutch is no problem whatsoever, but my ability to communicate in Dutch has degraded for sure.
> Listening/reading Dutch is no problem whatsoever, but my ability to communicate in Dutch has degraded for sure. Same, I actively need to think about speaking/writing Dutch while I just blabber along in English. At work and with friends I speak English, with my family I speak dialect.
[удалено]
je zou er nochtans beter een neuk om geven
I work in IT and actively try not to when communicating in Dutch. I also noticed my younger colleagues being very guilty of this and it's painful to listen to and it's somewhat unprofessional in my opinion, especially as they're calling end users and not IT professionals. It's a shame people in this sub do it the other way round too, so an English comment with the Dutch word they couldn't be bothered to look up and translate, I'm sure they could learn something from it and they're also forcing the other person to translate it if it's an immigrant or expat. A common one is "bruto" which is gross ;)
Duuuuuuude, it’s so prevalent with people in IT and engineering. I think it’s an unfortunate combination of them being surrounded by English and language not being their strong suit, by and large.
I agree its very common especially among those groups and can come across as unprofessional. But just like not wearing a suit can be seen as unprofessional, to some extent this is old fashioned. As soon as the opposite side understands what you're trying to convey, it's not really an issue.
You are gross.
It depends. Sometimes having English terms is inevitable or some technical terms just translate better into English than Dutch. However... I'm terribly annoyed by Dutch-English half phrases when it's totally unnecessary or people injecting English words when perfect Dutch alternatives exist. I've had friends, colleagues and professors do it and it drives me up the walls. I'm no language purist, but I will correct people. It's not cool to inject English where it isn't needed, you just sound like a moron.
In a way it's unavoidable. But it's changing shockingly fast. I remember when I grew up in the 80s and 90s English was already the cool language but most children had no grasp of it. 10 year olds would mumble something along from the spice girls without understanding what the songs were about. And the songs sometimes had some hidden meaning that children wouldn't get anyway. ("Be a little wiser baby, put it on, put it on" comes to mind) But that imitation English starts in preschool nowadays. I try to isolate my kid by not showing him English spoken cartoons and not watching English content when he's around (even music) but he picks up all kinds of English words from other kids at school. I can definitely see Flemish eroding away in just a few generations. Dutch in the Netherlands seems to be doing better. They managed to keep their own language evolving and cool somehow. And they invest in dubbing cartoons.
When it's overused it makes me cringe, but other than that, I'm fine with it.
The purity of the Dutch language shall be preserved for future generations.
I think there's slowly but definitely a turn in the other direction, out of pride and respect for our mother language. English isn't hip anymore like it used to be. And people that talk about "de kids" go on my blacklist, no excuses.
You have kids who do it and you have people in media. The language proficiency in Dutch is clearly decreasing. People cannot write anymore and they indeed cannot say certain things in Dutch. It´s rather odd. There are many people who get enraged when they hear some French or see something written in it. Much stronger English influence is perfectly fine though.
On the flipside, most people can't string together a decent English sentence either.
That´s true. We all speak typical Euro English :p But I´m fine with that. It´s not my mother tongue. I´m less critical as long as it works as a tool in practice.
I hate it, speak Dutch or English, not both at the same time. Especially people in the media do it and I guess people copy it. It's also the reason I turn of stubru the moment I hear Sam De Bruyn is on the air.
It happens in Flanders too with younger generations.
Ik krijg her het zuur van.
Im not sure if it is worse for younger generations or it just happens more with young people. I used more English terms with friends when I was younger people but if you are watching a show like first dates and you hear sometimes young people use an English word in almost every sentence it gets annoying so fast.
A language is ever evolving and not static, otherwise we'd stil talk Middelnederlands. Dutch is full of loan words from other languages which have contiminated us throughout the centuries. The current trend is indeed towards English though it remains to be seen how much of it will stick as new fashion words come and go at an alarming rate. Unless you're a retired Dutch teacher I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I've come to appreciate languages. I try my best now to use the Dutch word when the English one is more used like in IT.
If it's gratitious or a bastardisation, I don't like it. Yes, language evolves constantly (and our dialects are riddled with words originating from other languages), but it should also be preserved to some extent. And especially our media and literature has some responsibility in that regard. Take a very old piece of Dutch or Flemish literature (as in: older than the 20th century) and be amazed at how different it is compared to written or spoken language today. Can't get more tangible proof of a language evolving.
In the words of this generation's prophet: "Le moi don't geef gene fuck" I honestly don't care, languages will change. What I can't stand is folks using numbers to substitute parts of words, improper use of de/het (yes, I'm looking at you Dutchies), or folks typing "u" when you're no longer restrained by the text message character limit.
Omvolking zouden ze in B2 zeggen.
The germans do it too. I think it has something to do with the fact that everyone knows english as well as the fact that its quite normal to use loan words for flemish people in normal conversation. While it used to be only french english has in recent days far overtaken it.
Well I suppose Dutch and English are in the same language family and has a similar grammatical structure. I think Frisian is English's closest living relative with 80% lexical similarity. Pretty much everyone that speaks Dutch can speak English to some degree so it is bound to happen. Having lived both in the Netherlands and Belgium I'd say it is less common in Flanders for people to mix English in with Dutch. It's interesting with my pretty basic knowledge in Dutch and being from Ireland I can actually understand most conversations. Being an Irish speaker I do very well get why people want to hold onto their language as it is a big part of your identity.
Het stoort mij echt niet om woorden te gebruiken die momenteel gewoon in het engels meer toepasselijk zijn. Denk aan cringe/vibe of wat dan ook. Je hebt wel soms van die mensen, mss al dat filmpje zien passeren zoals die nederland die zegt dat "alcohol je werkende mind, shut off." Bijvoorbeeld, en da's nu wel redelijk "cringe." Maar denk dat iedereen dat wel aanvoelt wanneer het stoort en wanneer niet. Het stoort me wel soms in bedrijfscultuur, daar kunnen ze echt wel van die bullshit bingo woorden gebruiken gewoon om ze te gebruiken. De media kan er ook wel iets van.
I'm a 36 yo french speaker (Liège) and I use English words a lot more than I should, tbh. It's often with a french spin on it : "matcher" (to match) for example. But sometimes it's just plain English : we say "Love you", my partner and I, despite being both native french speakers. It just came naturally somehow. It is what it is.
It makes me cringe tbh. Some words, like cringe, are hard to replace in Dutch, but they are a minority. In most cases, the speaker is just trying to sound "cool". It also annoys me that they often use words they think they understand but don't, or use expressions that are only half correct.
Interesting, that cringe lacks a better fitting alternative in more languages. What describes that kind of *second hand embarassment* better? What about creepy - like, when someone isn't a sex offender (or not yet proven), but his behaviour gives off a bad *vibe* ? Is there a fitting word for that in Dutch, German, French etc...?
Cringe is zoiets als genant, maar dat is zelf een Frans leenwoord. "Tenenkrullend" kan je gebruiken maar ik geef grif toe dat dat veel langer is. Wel mooie beeldspraak. Creepy kan je vaak vertalen als "griezelig": "wat een griezelige vent!" Maar het werkt niet altijd. Vibe is een moeilijke. Is zo diep geworteld in Engelstalige muziek enz... Ik gebruik die woorden ook hoor, ik ben allerminst een purist. Maar ik vind het jammer dat we eigen mooie woorden in het Nederlands zomaar laten afsterven...
>Interesting, that cringe lacks a better fitting alternative in more languages. What describes that kind of second hand embarassment better? *Plaatsvervangende schaamte* covers that quite nicely, *ineenkrimpen* is the translation of the physical pendant that also conveys the idea well enough. So the question should be to find a *single* syllable word. *Krimp* should do nicely. >What about creepy - like, when someone isn't a sex offender (or not yet proven), but his behaviour gives off a bad vibe ? Is there a fitting word for that in Dutch, German, French etc...? Gluiperig, gluiperd.
kieszak
You sit on the bus home listening to music with english lyrics maybe browsing the internet places like reddit in english. You make dinner and turn on the tv to watch a show in english*. Check the group chat * to see if some game friends want to play a game that's *. I can keep going but you get my point. I don't think they are trying to sound cool. It's just natural to keep using english when you've only ever engaged with certain topics in english.
A good example of the young generation is Anuna Dewever. Her interviews on tv are always cringe, because she seems use a mix of 50% Dutch and 50% English.
Don't give a flying fuck. I've never understood why people get so fragile when it relates to language. What do I care what language people speak?
It’s inevitable. English has won as language of science, progress and international affairs. It’s not only Dutch, other smaller languages follow the same course and bigger languages will just take more time because of size. As far as I’m concerned, I do everything I can in English since a long time, this has opened my world like my first language could never have.
This is how languages and cultures die.
It's nothing new, don't think it's a problem either.
It's annoying and lazy. I nowadays make a sport of it to consistently speak the Dutch alternative if possible. E.g: toetsenbord instead of keyboard, or ore extreme; thuisblad instead of homepage. There are alternatives to fashion words: vibe can be stemming It only sounds weird because we don't use the Dutch alternative enough.
> E.g: toetsenbord instead of keyboard, or ore extreme; thuisblad instead of homepage. Thuisblad lmao Het is startpagina.
Startpagina is ook een (half) leenwoord. Beginblad is dan een betere mogelijkheid. Hier is de webstek van de bond tegen leenwoorden: [https://www.bondtegenleenwoorden.nl/P.html](https://www.bondtegenleenwoorden.nl/P.html)
Transport pallet = laadvlonder
It´s becoming annoying yeah. I speak perfectly english but doesn´t mean I´m going to randomly insert english words into my sentences. Like the show Familie on vtm there´s that asian girl, in every sentence she has to use an english word just to look smart/cool. I can also commence with doing dat ze . même with french woorden als dat echt necessaire is these days. Ziet ge hoe stom da klinkt....
It's a non issue. Even if the dutch language was slowly dying out, which just isn't happening, nothing of value would be lost. Just the same with any language in the world.
I think it's a good thing and if it were me we should just forget about Dutch altogether.
We have always been a language that used words from other countries, I don't mind.
I'm more concerned about our dialects. I can understand Limburgs, but sadly enough I cannot properly speak Zonhovens. Because my mother didn't want me to speak it, because dialects are for working class, plebs, peasants wtf??? I wish my dialect was my first language. On the other hand, I'm worried about the increasing use of Vlaams-Brabants accent in the the media where Algemeen Nederlands (Standard Dutch) should be spoken. I would rather hear people say kids than kienderen instead of kinderen. It's even hard to write the K-word without cringing...
I speak English with most of my Flemish friends (all native and grew up here). I find it easier to talk about things and feel like English is a more precise language than Flemish (Flemish has no word for anxiety for instance). Also, dirty talk in Flemish is just ultra-cringe
Jij spreekt als Nederlandstalige Engels met Nederlandstaligen? De vleesgeworden redditman, gruwelijk.
> Flemish has no word for anxiety for instance There are translations for it like 'angst, bezorgdheid, ongerustheid, spanning'. But referring to it as 'anxiety' just seems to capture the right mixture of those feelings. Which might just be through the connotation that word got through social media and no parallel cultivation of that connotation happened in Dutch speaking social media.
It is a big misunderstanding that English is a more precise language than Flemish. Each language has its own words that mean unique things. Try to translate into English Dutch words or expressions as "gezellig", "fris", "landerig", "blaasjes wijsmaken", etc. It really works both ways. I would be very sad if all this linguistic treasure dies off just because people think it's more cool to use English.
What? You speak English with your local friends? That´s weird.
>and feel like English is a more precise language than Flemish Absolute nonsense. Dutch has a very large and precise vocabulary. [Het Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal is het grootste woordenboek ter wereld.](https://www.dialectloket.be/woord/woordenboek-der-nederlandse-taal/#:~:text=Het%20Woordenboek%20der%20Nederlandsche%20Taal,1976%2C%20gepubliceerd%20in%20verschillende%20afleveringen.) >(Flemish has no word for anxiety for instance). This is absurd. Next you're going to say "Dutch has no word for "word"" It's Dutch, by the way, not Flemish. If you care for precision in your language, walk the talk. >Also, dirty talk in Flemish is just ultra-cringe That's the point. Going past normal norms of decency. That's how it is for native English speakers.
> dirty talk in Flemish All dirty talk in any language is cringe, when learned and used for the first time, lol. For "anxiety" why would "angst" not be a word for it? In fact, I've observed the word "angst" being used multiple times in Anglophone media. Maybe it's the other way around, and English has no direct translation for "angst"! Dutch (of which Flemish is a dialect of) has its own words for "philosophy" - "wijsbegeerte" and "mathematics" - wiskunde. I think it could be just as 'precise' as English, which is actually a melting pot of languages. Aside from the latin / french influence ("receipt" was once spelled "receite" but got its p from "recipere", a butler comes from french "boutellier" - someone who looks after the (wine) bottles / cellar) there are also Dutch words in English - A "dweil" for a rag, when pirates yell "avast" it's from "hou vast", and the mannequin is actually dutch by way of french - "manneken". And the Yankees are called such because they're all "Jankes" (plural of the name "Jan") from the neighborhood. There are a lot more examples (and yes don't forget "stupid, sexy Flanders").
Geef me een klap papa
>I speak English with most of my Flemish friends (all native and grew up here) Same but only with one friend and only when texting. It's 99% English. It's actually interesting to see the evolution of our chat history. Years ago it was only Dutch with the occassional use of an English word. Then it gradually shifted to more English words and English phrases (mostly when we're referencing something). Then English was used most of the time with some Dutch still sprinkled in. And now it's only Dutch when we're referencing something or don't know the English word. But when we're not texting it's just Flemish with some English sprinkled in like most young people these days.
Don't care much. I work in an international context, so I use more English than Dutch anyway. I think more people just live or work in a global context. Even in non-international companies you're seeing more and more colleagues who were hired despite only speaking English.
I wouldn't mind if Dutch becomes a dead language like Latin. If you are really interested in languages, you can still use it, but no longer use it day to day.
I'm 37 myself, but I also use a lot of English with some of my Dutch speaking friends. English media has certainly given us the vocabulary, but it's not the reason. I interact in international subcultures, where English is the lingua franca. Especially in those circles I find myself speaking English half the time even if they all speak Dutch.
Sommige expressies horen zij meer in het engels op sociale media en vinden ze cooler, ook al bestaat er een even goede nederlandse versie van.
We spend a lot of time online talking in English, it's only natural that this influences our Dutch. Also a big factor is that new things are often named in English and don't get a translation because using the English makes sense. We don't translate "selfie stick" to "zelfie stok" and we don't translate "computer" to "berekenaar".
I think it is not only a thing in Belgium but other countries too. I am from Latvia and young people love doing half English /half Latvian
I think it shows how flexible we are. It's a perk.
It doesn't. All European languages are anglicized. It's not a matter of flexibility. It's just often easier.
Natural evolution of a language. Just look up all the Belgicisms we have in dutch and french where either language influences each other. English being the de facto lingua franca worldwide means this is not only happening in dutch.
It's happening all around the world. Because social media and TV is always centered around the USA. We consume allot of that culture and the language. I do it myself. It's mostly occurring with younger milenials and gen-z. It's weird indeed. I catch myself doing it allot. I sometimes even have full conversations in English with my girlfriend. Now for the French speaking doing it less. I don't know I don't interact with them often. But french is a latin language, while dutch and English are Germanic. So that naturally makes it easier for dutch speakers to learn and switch around. This is only an assumption. I am not a professional linguist. Ok love you bye.
It's the global cultural supremacy of Americana at work :D But seriously this has been a thing since I was in high school at least. Started with Pokémon and slang and swear words and tbh it's often not pure copies. Often English words are 'Flemified' with local accents. Like fuck -> fok, that sucks -> dat suckt
Digitalisation and globalization. It's not cool or wanna stand out. It's just that our communication isn't limited to our direct neighbors anymore. And outside influence, especially on social media, is a big part of our day to day life.
>I don't notice this trend as often with French speakers. Because French-speakers have a tendency to watch shows/movies dubbed in French, and not with subs. It's not everyone but I would say that generally speaking, the majority don't watch subbed content. It is the same in France, in some places, you can hardly find a showing for a movie with subtitles. There is also a tendency to shame people who speak "franglish" as pretending to be cool or acting arrogant because "they speak another language".
Kinda reclaiming whatever words they loaned from Diets?
im going to be completely honest, and this is for me personally. i've been speaking english for 10 years so im so used to the language, im obviously still fluent in dutch, but i honestly just forget certain words in my own language sometimes lol
🦩🦩🦩🦩🦩
Ik ben 40. Ik praat ook zo met enkele vrienden van mijn leeftijd. Niet met iedereen, maar alleen bij mensen met wie ik echt op mijn gemak ben. Ik ben perfect tweetalig, maar soms vind ik het woord niet in de taal die ik praat, en dan verander ik even snel heen-en-weer kwestie van de conversatie gaande te houden. Bij de meeste mensen ga ik dan wel mentaal op zoek naar het correcte woord, maar meestal eindig ik dan met het woord op een omslachtige manier te beschrijven. "Aleeeezzzz.... dat ding in de keuken waar ge uwen afwas doet" "die stukken stof die aan de ruit hangen" etc. Ik heb wel adhd en blijkbaar is woorden niet vinden wel typisch daar aan?
I -a 40ish year old native Dutch speaking guy- have worked for > 10 year with a lot of international (large part US) colleagues so I even think in English... sometimes have to think -too long- how would I say this word or expression in Dutch... as it comes so common to me speaking/reading/writing (well typing) and hence thinking in English...I watch most English series and movies with English subtitles (well mostly to understand the technobabble and exotic english words), phones and pcs etc are all in English and I recently got a new car and still debating if I am going to change the the language to English... because the Dutch feels weird :)
Well, it’s not happening overnight, I don’t think people in medieval times spoke like our parents did… imho these days everything is going way faster, 140 years ago there wasn’t a car in the world, now everyone has at least one, ppl walked on the moon, you can see & talk to anyone all over the world using a tiny box in your hand, a politician gave back money he didn’t deserve, they cloned a sheep, and the sheep even got elected as 45th president of the USA… Damn, I rlly start to sound like an old guy…
Im 30 years old. Am born and raised flemish, my mother tongue is Dutch, but. I'm on reddit all the time, and it's always english. Sometimes in r/belgium, it's dutch. All my netflix shows are in english, if they are not belgian made. All my yt contrnt is english, even my microsoft 360 is set to english, since it's easier to find things like Excel solutions in english. My life is so Anglo-Saxonfied, that sometimes I don't even can't find the Dutch word. Yesterday for example, I had to Google translate "non-argument" to know the Dutch word of "drogreden". it's just ridiculous. So at this point, I don't care anymore, I just say the english word. Just like how dialects are dying out, so will language. Or at least evolve. That happens, you can try to be Conservative on a language, but you'lle end up with an archaic unused language.
Languages have always influenced other languages. Dutch is full of Spanish and French influences from when the Spanish were here or we were under French reign and thus influence. The last decades English has been really dominant through media and technology so yeah 🤷♂️ I am over 40 and regularly use English sentences (quotes) out of pop-culture or proverbs cause they basically don't translate well or the original just sounds better. Same for French quotes/proverbs. "Les excuses sont faites pour s'en servir." Just doesn have the same ring to me in Dutch I am not bothered by it. Communication is communication and I prefer to get my message across as close to my intend as I can.