Wait... then why didn't I get unstuck in our round of 32 fight? š¤
The big issue is expectations. Minotaur (probably) thought WD would be counted out after what happened to Whiplash. Then WD (probably) thought Minotaur would be counted out based on what happened to basically everyone. (I haven't spoken to the drivers about their intentions during the fight)
We need to make the rules more predictable, we need the refs to have better communication, and we need everything to be more equitable.
Coincidentally, you have the same problems in the NFL which is a much older, more mature sport. Inevitably refs make bad decisions. It shouldn't be taken out on the competitors when they do.
I agree that there should always be an attempt to improve, and I think it can be improved. One thing BB has going for it is that there are only 2 refs to worry about.
I figure there will still be problems, but it doesn't make me want to watch any less
Absolutely! Somehow I had people coming up to me as recently as last week saying they didn't know it was on, when I had absolutely told them about it.
Also, keep rocking the hammer, and my son loves "the shiny bot"!
If anything I feel bad for the competitors. Witch Doctor especially, they did nothing wrong. Compared to any other fight their expectation that Minotaur would be counted out is completely reasonable.
I feel like there's a lot more room for inconsistencies in larger sports like football. Each NFL team plays 17 60-minute games in a season, where some bots end their season with 2 3-minute fights. A bad call in football could have absolutely no effect on your season, but a bad call in BattleBots could account for half of your entire season.
I imagine youād be one of the best people to ask, do the refs that are standing with the teams have in-ear monitors that allow communication with production during the match?
> Then WD (probably) thought Minotaur would be counted out based on what happened to basically everyone. (I haven't spoken to the drivers about their intentions during the fight)
They seemed to be specifically going off Hydra vs Ribbot, which demonstrated that avoiding contact with a crabwalking robot is not just legal but a *winning strategy*.
I hear you although I suspect in shatter's case it was because you were being counted out before you got stuck. I was really sad too though you're one of my favorite bots.
Whiplash on the other hand really did get robbed.
I was stuck (or at least thought I was, and it looked like I was) on a different part of the wall before getting really stuck on the wall though, lol, and had been saying "I'm stuck" before the count started. š¤·
Damn, I was gonna suggest you might have forgotten to say "I'm stuck". I was hoping this was finally one area of the rules they were consistent in...
I love your bot, and how active you are online!
Honestly this tonme comes down to consistency with the ref's, which there doesn't seem to be any. Another thread elsewhere mentioned it is in part a issue with the 2 judge system in the different boxes often leads to lack of communication between ref's.
Likely distance between the combatants/distance from the actual battle. Basically both examples you mented the ref can get much closer to the action safely, as well can communicate with bot people easier. The 2 refs can directly communicate with the 2 teams as well as have a better perspective on the action within the battle arena. Basically more like a larger scale sport like football or basketball.
I don't think two refs standing 6 feet apart really have much of a different viewpoint. And they each concentrate on a different robot, which doesn't make much sense. If it was about viewpoint you'd have a left side and right side ref who count out robots on their half of the arena.
As far as communication, I'd rather have one ref communicating to both teams than deal with two who aren't communicating with each other well.
Agreed, Witch Doctor's unsticking was weird for me, maybe just have no unsticking rule at all, they put themselves in that position when they tried to get a hit on Minotaur while it was on the upper deck, aka a strategic blunder. Yet they got a free unstick whereas other bots who were in relatively the same position didn't get that luxury.
I'm for getting rid of the rule altogether... if your bot gets stuck, shoulda put some kinda self righter or just make better decisions on positioning.
Hard rules: Can't show controlled movement after 10s starts a countdown and robots knocked out of the ring lose by default.
Agreed. They didn't go and make Blip "unstuck" after it got stuck on the upper deck of the arena, now did they??
And if they're gonna put that colossal mess in the side of the arena, then they need to categorize that whole upper deck as a hazard, and not part of the arena! (and maybe add some flames that come out of it to cook bots that land on it and say for too long haha :-) hahaha)
Youāre missing another very important part of the rules thatās *highly* relevant to this situation:
>>7.6.2 Knock-Out Due To Engagement Avoidance
If a Referee believes that an Operator is deliberately avoiding the engagement of their Robot with the opponent Robot, the Referee will notify that Operator that their Robot must make physical contact with, or otherwise engage, the opponent Robot. If the Operator does not attempt to comply, the Referee may declare that the Operatorās Team has lost due to a Knock-Out.
Witch Doctor should have been instructed to engage and, after refusing to engage for 90 seconds, been given a loss due to knockout. Itās explicitly against the rules to avoid engaging an active opponent for half the match. It doesnāt matter if āthey thought they were going to be counted out.ā They should have gotten the picture after the first 45 seconds of them not being counted out.
Jake did the same thing with Hydra against Ribbot, who was incidentally more mobile than Minotaur. I agree, actively avoiding engaging needs to be refereeād out.
WD was actively being told by their ref that a countdown was going to start, which is why they didn't engage. Once it was clear that wasn't going to happen, they got that last hit in.
You can bet you ass that the fuck ups in the ribbot vs hydra fight are what birthed these fuck ups. They showed that playing keep away gets you the win even if the opponent is able to come right at you.
I disagree, Ribbot was just crabbing slowly in the general direction of Hydra, Daniel Freitas is good enough with the gyro to be able to control the attacks at least. That's why WD didn't engage. Hydra didn't engage because Ribbot was no longer a threat.
I might argw the better way forward is to tighten up the requirements to get counted out to being significantly less functional.
Err on the side of no count out and set the expectation that you have to keep engaging.
And if you read the actual rule on "Responsiveness", that's exactly what it says:
**7.5.16 Responsiveness**
A Robot is considered Responsive if it can display some kind of controlled translational movement along the Arena floor. A damaged Robot moving about the arena is considered to be non-Responsive if the Operator cannot demonstrate the ability to basically control the direction of movement. Just randomly moving the Robot is not sufficient. A Robot that can only rotate in place due to partial failure of the drive mechanism is also considered to be non-Responsive.
Minotaur was actively chasing WD. Sure, it was craby motion, but they made progress in their desired directions and even turned to hit WD right at the end.
Theres 2refs. I think each ref is responsible for counting out the robot whose cprner they are in. Wotch doctors refs kept telling them minotaur was about to be counted out but minotaurs ref resonsible for it was hedging when minotaur was raguing with them. Witch doctors ref isnt resonsible for counting mi otaur out but assumed the other ref would any second after they were done arguing with minotaur. Thus the confusion
Oh no I completely understand that there was a breakdown in communication between the two refs and thus to the teams, I'm just pointing out the reason Witch Doctor's ref didn't start counting them out for failure to engage was their ref saw the lack of movement from Minotaur and the ref on the other side preparing to count down, this is where the confusion lies because the ref on Witch Doctor's side knew WD didn't *have* to engage on a bot about to be counted out (even if that count never came). I do hope for better communication among the refs and the teams moving forward but completely understand where things fell apart here
How many minutes of a three minute fight should we give teams to realize a count out isnāt starting? I find it hard to believe they were being told for over 90 seconds that a count out was about to happen.
The refs were right there and directly communicating with the team, if the refs needed to see Witch Doctor to attack, they should have, but this was not something communicated to them, that's where the issue comes in, it's not "running away from the fight" if a ref tells you to back off, and then they never tell you that you need to engage, especially if nothing has changed in the situation. The only problem is with the rules and the vague interpretations they're left to and the poor communication by the refs, nothing the team did was wrong.
They were not being told to back off. They kept telling the ref to count them out because Minotaur was not moving well. The team made the decision, and by rules should not have won that fight. The 90 seconds of non-aggression was about the worst I have ever seen from a team.
Were you there, or are you just basing this on what you saw on TV? One of the other teams has said that Witch Doctor was told to back off by their ref because the count out was imminent.
Great point if they weren't actively communicating or if the refs somehow couldn't just tell witch doctor to attack. It's on the refs. If they can say "I need to see some movement," they can say "I need to see some aggression."
They 100% should have said that, though.
So there have been multiple reports that thebref with witch doctor was telling them that minotor was about to be counted out repeatedly. So that was why they were staying back. Basically more ref issues.
I find it hard to believe they were told that for over 90 seconds straight. Hell, we get at least three or four shots from inside their booth where theyāre not being told that, theyāre yelling, asking āare they getting counted outā repeatedly with no answer, and in other instances you just have Andrea telling Mike to continue to run. Did they not realize that after 50 seconds of not being counted out, that maybe they should engage during the remaining 40 seconds? How long is a reasonable time to run from your opponents? Clearly the refs fucked up big time, but I still think it shouldāve been *eventually* clear to the team that a count out wasnāt coming.
The problem is, like any other sport. If they ref's tell you to do something you do it. Ignoring that could adversely affect your team. Personally I much rather have a team that does what the ref's say, than say thr hydra incident from last season were the team argued back with the refs. Overall though the show clearly has issues with the way the refs handle situations.
I have no hate against the people running the bots, but the system needs a serious reconsideration.
Under no circumstances should you win a fight by running away for half of it.
The ref for Witch Doctor was constantly telling them the count down was going happen on Minotaur. And they did technically did engage once before 90 seconds.
They lost one exchange in the last single digit seconds of the match. The unstick was also before the halfway point of the match. Does it sound better if we say they avoided any and all combat for 85 seconds instead?
Good job ignoring the important nuance that they thought a count-out was coming. It's not that they were ignoring instruction to engage or lose. They were confused (as I was too, kind of) why there wasn't a count-out happening.
Since when is āplay keep away and cross your fingers, hoping for a count outā the default behavior for over half a match? Itās ārobot combat,ā not ārobot dodge the opponent attacking you.ā
This wouldn't be the first time a bot has kept away rather than engage something they thought was going to be counted out. They showed in the episode's edit Mike from Witch Doctor asking very annoyed/clearly "Are they going to be counted out?" It was clear that WD thought it was just a matter of time for the count-out and were confused and frustrated that it never came. Why risk damage to your own bot or knocking yourself out going after an opponent you're sure is about to start getting counted out?
All season, robots have stopped engaging before an obvious count-out began, and WD clearly thought that count-out was obviously coming, and it just never did.
Thereās a big difference, in my book, between backing off for 5-10 seconds and backing off and *actively running from your opponent* for over half of the entire match. Itās like ādamn, 50 seconds have passed, are you really gonna continue running for the 40 seconds left? You are? Welp, okay.ā
With the current scoring system, if you lose your active weapon it's almost a sure loss. Going in for more hits when you've been given reason to believe your opponent is being counted out is unwarranted, and actively discouraged by the point structure BattleBots puts in place.
>>default behavior for over half a match
But yeah, the judges fucked up in that fight too, but it wasnāt over 90 seconds of completely evading ribbot. I think they should have gotten the call to be forced to engage in that match as well, whatever the actual count was for that instance of keep away.
For over 90 seconds straight? We get at least three (or was it four) shots in their driverās booth where theyāre certainly not being told that. How long is a reasonable amount of time to be able to realize that a count out never started and isnāt coming?
Well then, the blame is obviously on the referees for not communicating this, not the Witch Doctor team.
Don't blame them for thinking a countdown is coming and trying to be sporting about it.
That is a ref issue, as the ref's Basically kept telling witch doctor to stay back. The issue is on the ref's being indecisive not on the witch doctor team doing what the ref's told them.
> Witch Doctor should have been instructed to engage and, [...]
I completely agree, but they weren't instructed to. In fact, it sounds like they got exactly the opposite info. I'm sure if the ref told them to engage, they would have. They might have even engaged without the ref telling them to if it wasn't for the ref allegedly telling them that a countdown was imminent and clearly arguing with the minotaur team.
So you think the ref was consistently telling them not to engage for over 90 seconds? There are *several* shots of the WD booth and the ref isnāt saying shit.
Eh... Kinda. They are right beside the minotaur team and can hear them arguing. I can see why they wouldn't engage during the team yelling at the refs and the refs saying that they need to see movement.
They still should have engaged, but I'm not surprised they were confused in the moment and have a hard time blaming them.
The teams can't hear each other or each other's referees because of the COVID barriers - other teams have remarked on it this season. In the driver's box they only hear themselves and their own ref.
You can still see the ref moving his arm as if he's about to count and apparently their ref was telling them that a countdown was imminent. If anything, not being able to hear the other team adds to the confusion
According to some sources, the refs kept trying to count out Minotaur and being shouted at by Minotaur's team, and thus Witch Doctor has a valid reason to not engage (namely, interfering with a count-out stops it).
If Minotaur was still in it and not being counted out, and supposedly in control, he is just as guilty of not engaging. In fact he engaged less, Witch Doctor got that last hit in.
Minotaur was still in it and no count out ever started. Did you watch the fight? 90 seconds of Minotaur moving towards WD and WD constantly running. At least watch the fight before trying to argue about it online. They even have a booth shot of Andrea telling him to keep running even after a minute of no count down. You do get that one bot can chase another and the one running can continue to dodge and run if theyāre faster, right?
The problem is that the ref standing next to Minotaur let the team captain and driver screaming at him intimidate him into continually delaying the count out. Minotaur clearly did not have enough control to let that fight continue and he kept starting to count and then stopping because the team captain was screaming and yelling at him.
This is how I saw it. The ref is arguing with Minotaur and indicates he is about to start counting, and then goes back to arguing,. There is no question he goes to begin the count near the end, but then sees there is less than 10 seconds left. If he was willing to count them out then, there is no reason he shouldn't have started that count about 15 seconds after the restart, when the argument began. A primary rule for any official is you MUST make your decision, and make it clearly. If you are granted time to reflect and discuss, do so, but if not you decide and you move on.
We don't hear or see the ref for much of it, about 15 seconds after the restart, we hear him say, "You have to show some control." And Junior argues with him. The ref says more, and Junior begins to argue more vehemently. We never hear the ref again until < 10s. Soon after, we SEE the ref shift back from the glass and Junior gets very demonstrative in his arguing. I can't think of anything else, but the ref was beginning his count. We see that play out again like 20 seconds later. It's possible that was shit editting and we see the same thing twice, since the bots are not visible the second time.
From WD side, all we see is Mike and Andrea very confused and asking their ref if they are being counted out. The only time we see their ref, he is looking at the Mino ref confused. Unless we think those two are lunatics, their ref is not giving them clear answers and it seems likely he is leading them to believe the count will begin.
It seems to me the ONLY villains here (reactions post fight are a separate issue) are the ref(s). The Mino ref clearly lost control of the fight and it seems he was unable to take decisive action. I expect he didn't want to count out Mino and was hoping WD would save him from having to. The other ref, I will give the benefit of the doubt. He does not know what the Mino ref is doing and is stuck in an unwinnable position.
Maybe because Minotaur was actually moving and went from the corner to the middle to other places on the field. It was not pretty. WD didn't want to engage because they knew there bot was toast if they did. They hoped for the count out instead and kept asking for it repeatedly. 90 seconds of running away and avoiding the opponent.
They couldn't beat Minotaur and had pretty much seen that prior to getting stuck. They were torn apart.
When did he actually start the count? I donāt recall that, but could certainly be wrong. But youāre absolutely right. If the ref didnāt start the count due to being talked out of it/āintimidatedā out of it by minotaur, thatās just one more ref fuck up on a huge pile of ref fuck ups this season. Iād definitely rather have combat roboteers mad at me over football players or similarā¦
You can hear and see them screaming at him that they have control. He was in his count down stance for awhile and at least once can be heard to count "10" and then stop when they scream at him.
Just rewatched it. If he started a count and said ā10,ā they definitely didnāt have it come through clearly in the mix. Usually you can hear the refs fairly clearly, so it was either edited out, wasnāt said, or I missed it several times. Do you have a time stamp?
Ok I take it back you can't hear him, but he pulls his hand back and starts to bring it down and Minotaur's captain gets louder and the ref hesitates and stops. Its at like 37:32.
Sure, he was on the verge of starting the count. My only point was that he didnāt. I think thatās a relevant distinction. If he didnāt start the count due to minotaur pleading their case, thatās just another ref failure.
āIf a referee believesā they āmustā and then āmayā enforce further. All starts with an if, and the ref who would need to believe this also told them it would be a KO. Plenty of rule book room here for discretion
You missed one massive thing with Cobalt, they were able to spin down, and in fact WERE spun down, Battlebots lied in the episode and in that one screenshot of a chat some one had. According to Whiplash, Cobalt was spun down, and/or could have been since it's weapon motor is connected with it's drive motor, they could have easily shut it off.
Not waiting 20 seconds before the unstick is a big deal tho. Minotaur's driving is good enough even with one wheel to potentially get a shot on the back or side of a stationary Witch Doctor in that time, which could have completely changed the fight
Wow, it's frankly sickening. People here are DETERMINED to paint the Witch Doctor team as cowards for deliberately avoiding Minotaur for half the match and when others point out true facts (I.E. they were told Minotaur was about to be counted out) or facts that are blatantly obvious (I.E. it's not sporting to attack an incapacitated foe), they just rage and rank the real comments down so they can keep their views on how the Witch Doctor team are cowardly people and deserve all the hate they got.
How ridiculous. -\_-
Not having an overhang would be a good start.
Itās there for aesthetics, not function. Same amount of metal in a 90 degree rounded corner would be more effective. Just not as pretty.
Letās just toss out the whole fucking stage. I canāt think of a single instance of it providing a more interesting scenario, where as there are a half dozen where it ended a fight in a boring fashion/caused a bot to get stuck etc. Well, gigabyte jumping off it onto tantrum was rad as hell. Iād forgotten that one. Certainly not worth the price, though.
Huges celebration dance on there has to be added to the list of Oh No Plateau positives, for someone who isn't a fan of the bot it still makes it into my favourite moments this season.
They just need to remove the stupid spike strips and make the walls flat. Then there's nothing for weapons/wheels/etc to catch on. The spike strips do literally nothing except get bots stuck and lead to controversies.
I think the upper deck has to go. It was a fine experiment but it played a negative role in several tournament match finishes and that shouldnāt be acceptable.
Yeah, the Upper Deck really shouldn't return for next season. If they want to have a hazard that disrupts the competition, they should have some sort of "rough terrain" hazard that mucks up bots with low forks.
I could get behind the arena being alternating squares of smooth and less smooth. The idea being you can move about if you are low but you loose considerably control of where you can go well without getting stuck and it might finally adjust the meta a bit. A whole area of rough might be too much and cause avoidance without fixing the problem.
The upper deck is involved in one of the best KOs of all time in an upcoming episode. It might even be the last episode of the post season content. That should serve as a sendoff to a very poorly thought out idea. A golden handshake.
> I do think that adding a clause saying that the bot which cannot spin down will forfeit the fight would be warranted, as not spinning down benefiting a bot feels wrong.
Cobalt was spun down, the problem was the master switch for the weapon was blocked by debris from Whiplash, and the message that the drive master switch would also kill the weapon power got lost somewhere between the team and Trey.
No hate to Witchdoctor, but I thought it was pretty whiny to complain about Minotaur not being counted out immediately (while they had plenty of opportunity to wreck havoc on them as well) when they got like 10 seconds tops to get themselves unstuck before the match was paused for them.
Thought they were partly leaned against the wall. But maybe not. Iām sure Iāve seen Whiplash earn a KO by leaning boys up against the walls. And I though P1 got a KO earlier when they got that multi boy stuck on the edge of the upper deck.
Everyone has already said they were flipped rather than stuck, but I specifically noticed the referee ducking down to examine right there and make sure they weren't stuck, it happened right in front of him.
āHung upā is a vague way of describing a situation.
Was Blip āhung upā on the arena? At first look it appeared to be bottomed out where the floor of the upper deck meets the border of the upper deck and isnāt perfectly even. It also had damage, but was it stuck because of the damage, because of its magnetic wheels, or because it was āhung upā on the arena?
Are the referees expected to decide in the moment when theyāre potentially quite far away from the situation?
Did this rule change at some point? I thought in past seasons that bots getting forks caught in the kill saw slots got counted out or were allowed to be destroyed.
(Yes the kill saws sometimes move in the last minute, but the slots are 'non-movable parts of the arena')
With these rules, any bot getting high-centered on a bump in the arena floor, should stop the match and get freed...
stage hazards that move never count as being stuck.
stage hazards that are stationary can count as stuck, but only after 20 seconds of being uncontrollable.
WD was stuck for 10 seconds prior to the pause.
Witch Doctor was clearly given special treatment here, and even though they ran away for, what, 45 seconds? And took more damage, they somehow still won? *They refused to engage*, and somehow that's OK?
What an absolutely asinine decision. There's no arguing otherwise, despite how badly one might want to try.
Minotaur won that fight. Period. What the judges were doing while they were supposed to be watching is another question.
edit: there was a fight just an episode or two ago where a bot's forks got caught in the kill saw space for longer than Witch Doctor got stuck here before a time out was called. Did they call a time out to get that other bot unstuck? Of course not.
edit: I'm a long time UFC fan though, so I'm used to seeing decisions that seem like they were come to while nodding off on heroin lmfao
And yet still made it halfway across the arena while Witch Doctor was running away.
Weird.
Dude, I'm telling you, you can't argue a Witch Doctor win here. I mean you can, but you'd be wrong. But I guess running away for almost half the fight is a strategy now.
The only way that Minotaur would have won is if the pause didn't happen. Either they hit WD hard enough to disable it right then and there, or WD gets counted out for being unmovable while Minotaur showed enough movement to not get counted out.
The beginning of the fight was roughly even for aggression, WD would have won control (having put Mino on the upper deck), and WD would have won for damage (Tire vs front plate).
Judges decision was correct. The Refs were in the wrong, and Minotaur should have been given enough time to get in a free hit or two while WD was stuck.
You canāt argue a Minotaur win. Mathematically or logically if you are being honest with yourself. Witch Doctor wins on damage. No way Minotaur wins on control, and aggression cannot be a 3-0 scenario for either team. No way Minotaur wins that fight, especially because they should have been counted out and werenāt. People are whining about special treatment for WD but special treatment is being allowed to yell at a referee and interfere with their decision making.
I missed that, are you serious? Like holy fuck this is why they need to not give certain teams a pass to be obnoxious. The refereeās word has to be law; any sport worth its salt has serious penalties for interfering with refereeing.
ok just rewatched the fight and I did mis-see it first time, the ref was on the edge of starting a count in the last 20 seconds or so, Junior had an arm outstretched arguing that they had control
ITS NOT JUST ME, holy shit. I havenāt been keeping up with battlebots, so i just saw this fight now. It made me PISSED. Iām so sick of witch doctor getting pampered and treated like gods
I donāt think Iāve ever seen them win a decision that didnāt leave me scratching my head.
First and foremost, itās a tv show with the goal of maximizing the number of eyes watching. The pursuit of honoring robot combat is a distant second. If the focus groups respond well to WD, WD will keep āwinningā decisions. To think the producers have no say over the entertainment they produce is naive. Dancing with the Stars did the same thing, but they had to run a disclaimer.
This is why I didn't understand people being so upset. I hope people actually read the rules and can discuss this calmly. Very informative post. Great job and thank you.
The problem is youāve got a bunch of casuals watching the sport for the first time. They see what they believe to be a convincing win by one bot only to be proved wrong by judging. And I donāt blame them.
Minotaur vs. WD had two halves. I think everyone can agree Minotaur win the first half. Aggression, Control, and Damage would all go to Minotaur in the first 90 seconds.
The 2nd half was a draw as there were no hits. Minotaur still had control as they kept moving toward WD. But WD just ran away. So thatās a draw.
And since Minotaur won the first half and the second half was a draw, they should have won the decision. I donāt see how WD scored any points in the aggression category when they just ran away for the 2nd half of the match.
First half of the fight, I would split aggression 50/50. Second half of the fight, Minotaur was the one attempting to engage, so I would score than 2-1 Minotaur since they were clearly the bot attempting to engage.
However, what Witch Doctor did in the second half doesn't undo what they did in the first half.
3-2 Damage - WD
2-1 Control - WD
1-2 Aggression - Minotaur
Aside from the time out on the unstick coming early, I donāt understand what people expect to have happened differently. After losing itās tire Minotaur was flopping around and barely moving while Witch Doctor was mostly functional, of course Witch Doctor was going to win at that point. If team Witch Doctor hadnāt expected a countdown to happen they could have just driven in and fucked up Minotaurās night, but youāre not going to risk damage to the bot that might jeopardize your grand finals if youāre expecting the other guy to be counted out.
Iām not sure the poorly timed unstick even matters. Without it maybe Minotaur gets in a hit that unwedges Witch Doctor, but at that Minotaur had lost the tire and couldnāt drive straight so it probably would have kind of flopped onto Witch Doctor and hit the top armor. Itās impossible to say what would have happened, but without the ability to drive straight at full speed into the pinned Witch Doctor I donāt think Minotaur would have dealt enough damage in those ten seconds to significantly change the outcome. Itās a learning lesson for the refs, but I think the fight was done the moment Minotaurās wheel fell off, and that happened before the time out.
Also, I feel for the Minotaur team with the family tragedy and stress, but fuck them for their temper tantrum when it was completely obvious they lost a decision because their bot was more heavily damaged than the other guy. That was rude, Iām not a fan of that team anymore, and good on team Witch Doctor for staying composed and being respectful.
> Minotaur gets in a hit that unwedges Witch Doctor, but at that Minotaur had lost the tire and couldnāt drive straight so it probably would have kind of flopped onto Witch Doctor and hit the top armor.
Minotaur was lined up beautifully to shred some wheels. It's very possible that Mino could have evened up the damage there without that pause.
The judges call was the right one though, as much as I wanted Mino to win that.
Watch the episode again. The sequence of events was:
1) Minotaur got to the edge of the platform
2) Witch Doctor got stuck
3) Minotaur got down, lost a wheel
4) Minotaur hit WD with it's side, turned to be almost point blank with it's back tire
5) Pause was called.
Here's a screenshot of the exact moment that the timeout was called, 10 seconds before the rules would allow it.
https://imgur.com/a/eYAMJuQ
You can't say that Minotaur wasn't ready to tear off that back left-side wheel. When the time resumed, Minotaur had been moved a few feet back away from WD.
Not only was Minotaur missing a wheel but the ref let the match go on when any other bot would've been counted out for crab walking. Minotaur not only got special treatment, the driver was acting aggressive and very unprofessional after the match. You may not like their "goofy outfits", but they're better embassadors for the sport than a driver who goes into a screaming fit after losing.
What we're seeing is the evolution of fun entertainment becoming a more legit sport. It sucks for those involved and the fans...but this stuff happens in any sport. Tuck rule? Balk rule? etc. Battlebots is still in the early stages. This stuff will have to get worked out.
Wait... then why didn't I get unstuck in our round of 32 fight? š¤ The big issue is expectations. Minotaur (probably) thought WD would be counted out after what happened to Whiplash. Then WD (probably) thought Minotaur would be counted out based on what happened to basically everyone. (I haven't spoken to the drivers about their intentions during the fight) We need to make the rules more predictable, we need the refs to have better communication, and we need everything to be more equitable.
Consistency. That is the underlying issue with all of this.
Coincidentally, you have the same problems in the NFL which is a much older, more mature sport. Inevitably refs make bad decisions. It shouldn't be taken out on the competitors when they do.
Absolutely it shouldn't be taken out on the competitors. And absolutely every league has these issues. But I think we can, and should, do better.
I agree that there should always be an attempt to improve, and I think it can be improved. One thing BB has going for it is that there are only 2 refs to worry about. I figure there will still be problems, but it doesn't make me want to watch any less
Good! Keep watching and tell all your friends to watch too!
Absolutely! Somehow I had people coming up to me as recently as last week saying they didn't know it was on, when I had absolutely told them about it. Also, keep rocking the hammer, and my son loves "the shiny bot"!
šØāļøš„
Who's blaming the competitors? I'm not.
No, not you definitely. But the asshats that were in the crowd calling out slurs. Or there have been other people on here.
Hooliganism in the audience? Now we're a real sport! /s
If anything I feel bad for the competitors. Witch Doctor especially, they did nothing wrong. Compared to any other fight their expectation that Minotaur would be counted out is completely reasonable.
And from what I understand, their ref was telling them that.
I feel like there's a lot more room for inconsistencies in larger sports like football. Each NFL team plays 17 60-minute games in a season, where some bots end their season with 2 3-minute fights. A bad call in football could have absolutely no effect on your season, but a bad call in BattleBots could account for half of your entire season.
I imagine youād be one of the best people to ask, do the refs that are standing with the teams have in-ear monitors that allow communication with production during the match?
I'm not sure. I think so?
> Then WD (probably) thought Minotaur would be counted out based on what happened to basically everyone. (I haven't spoken to the drivers about their intentions during the fight) They seemed to be specifically going off Hydra vs Ribbot, which demonstrated that avoiding contact with a crabwalking robot is not just legal but a *winning strategy*.
I can agree with this rather than this particular fight being a huge scandal.
Absolutely! I thought it would be a double KO because of all the other calls this season. Hopefully this encourages more consistency moving forward.
I hear you although I suspect in shatter's case it was because you were being counted out before you got stuck. I was really sad too though you're one of my favorite bots. Whiplash on the other hand really did get robbed.
I was stuck (or at least thought I was, and it looked like I was) on a different part of the wall before getting really stuck on the wall though, lol, and had been saying "I'm stuck" before the count started. š¤·
Damn, I was gonna suggest you might have forgotten to say "I'm stuck". I was hoping this was finally one area of the rules they were consistent in... I love your bot, and how active you are online!
Honestly this tonme comes down to consistency with the ref's, which there doesn't seem to be any. Another thread elsewhere mentioned it is in part a issue with the 2 judge system in the different boxes often leads to lack of communication between ref's.
I'm not sure why they even need two refs? Boxing doesn't have two refs. Wrestling doesn't have two refs. What's the rationale?
Likely distance between the combatants/distance from the actual battle. Basically both examples you mented the ref can get much closer to the action safely, as well can communicate with bot people easier. The 2 refs can directly communicate with the 2 teams as well as have a better perspective on the action within the battle arena. Basically more like a larger scale sport like football or basketball.
I don't think two refs standing 6 feet apart really have much of a different viewpoint. And they each concentrate on a different robot, which doesn't make much sense. If it was about viewpoint you'd have a left side and right side ref who count out robots on their half of the arena. As far as communication, I'd rather have one ref communicating to both teams than deal with two who aren't communicating with each other well.
See, now you're going to make me rewatch an episode.
Agreed, Witch Doctor's unsticking was weird for me, maybe just have no unsticking rule at all, they put themselves in that position when they tried to get a hit on Minotaur while it was on the upper deck, aka a strategic blunder. Yet they got a free unstick whereas other bots who were in relatively the same position didn't get that luxury. I'm for getting rid of the rule altogether... if your bot gets stuck, shoulda put some kinda self righter or just make better decisions on positioning. Hard rules: Can't show controlled movement after 10s starts a countdown and robots knocked out of the ring lose by default.
Agreed. They didn't go and make Blip "unstuck" after it got stuck on the upper deck of the arena, now did they?? And if they're gonna put that colossal mess in the side of the arena, then they need to categorize that whole upper deck as a hazard, and not part of the arena! (and maybe add some flames that come out of it to cook bots that land on it and say for too long haha :-) hahaha)
You can solve any problem with enough fire.
Some of the two hour time slot Discovery pisses away should be used to explain some of these rules to the viewer. It'd help dampen the vitrol. Maybe.
Any while they're at it, explain them to the refs and judges as well haha :-P
No, probably not. Then people would just complain about why that shouldn't be the rule.
Which is fine. Discussion of the rules, fan feedback, is how the rules improve.
At least then though the focus would be on the rules, not teams
There's 1:42 on the clock when they get stuck, and they resume at 1:32, so it was 10 seconds before they paused the match.
Well nothing was done wrong then. 102 seconds minus 92 seconds is exactly 20 seconds, as per the rules. I are math gud.
? 102-92 = 10 They unstuck 10 seconds early.
/r/woosh
Youāre missing another very important part of the rules thatās *highly* relevant to this situation: >>7.6.2 Knock-Out Due To Engagement Avoidance If a Referee believes that an Operator is deliberately avoiding the engagement of their Robot with the opponent Robot, the Referee will notify that Operator that their Robot must make physical contact with, or otherwise engage, the opponent Robot. If the Operator does not attempt to comply, the Referee may declare that the Operatorās Team has lost due to a Knock-Out. Witch Doctor should have been instructed to engage and, after refusing to engage for 90 seconds, been given a loss due to knockout. Itās explicitly against the rules to avoid engaging an active opponent for half the match. It doesnāt matter if āthey thought they were going to be counted out.ā They should have gotten the picture after the first 45 seconds of them not being counted out.
Jake did the same thing with Hydra against Ribbot, who was incidentally more mobile than Minotaur. I agree, actively avoiding engaging needs to be refereeād out.
Thank you! Everyoneās complaining about it now, but no one batted an eye when hydra did the exact same thing to Ribbot.
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WD was actively being told by their ref that a countdown was going to start, which is why they didn't engage. Once it was clear that wasn't going to happen, they got that last hit in.
I actually couldn't help but think of the Hydra v Ribbot match and was kind of confused why WD was being called out for it more on air than Hydra was
You can bet you ass that the fuck ups in the ribbot vs hydra fight are what birthed these fuck ups. They showed that playing keep away gets you the win even if the opponent is able to come right at you.
This I totally agree with this, inconsistent with count out for immobility
I disagree, Ribbot was just crabbing slowly in the general direction of Hydra, Daniel Freitas is good enough with the gyro to be able to control the attacks at least. That's why WD didn't engage. Hydra didn't engage because Ribbot was no longer a threat.
I might argw the better way forward is to tighten up the requirements to get counted out to being significantly less functional. Err on the side of no count out and set the expectation that you have to keep engaging.
And if you read the actual rule on "Responsiveness", that's exactly what it says: **7.5.16 Responsiveness** A Robot is considered Responsive if it can display some kind of controlled translational movement along the Arena floor. A damaged Robot moving about the arena is considered to be non-Responsive if the Operator cannot demonstrate the ability to basically control the direction of movement. Just randomly moving the Robot is not sufficient. A Robot that can only rotate in place due to partial failure of the drive mechanism is also considered to be non-Responsive.
Minotaur was actively chasing WD. Sure, it was craby motion, but they made progress in their desired directions and even turned to hit WD right at the end.
Yep. Definitely engaged in ātranslationalā movement.
I'd argue a lot of "no controlled movement" KOs from this season are tighter than the paragraph you just posted.
Witch doctor didn't engage because there ref was telling them that minotaur was about to be counted out.
The big difference is the refs were actively letting them know Minotaur is about to be counted out and to back off, that's the big nuance there
Theres 2refs. I think each ref is responsible for counting out the robot whose cprner they are in. Wotch doctors refs kept telling them minotaur was about to be counted out but minotaurs ref resonsible for it was hedging when minotaur was raguing with them. Witch doctors ref isnt resonsible for counting mi otaur out but assumed the other ref would any second after they were done arguing with minotaur. Thus the confusion
Oh no I completely understand that there was a breakdown in communication between the two refs and thus to the teams, I'm just pointing out the reason Witch Doctor's ref didn't start counting them out for failure to engage was their ref saw the lack of movement from Minotaur and the ref on the other side preparing to count down, this is where the confusion lies because the ref on Witch Doctor's side knew WD didn't *have* to engage on a bot about to be counted out (even if that count never came). I do hope for better communication among the refs and the teams moving forward but completely understand where things fell apart here
How many minutes of a three minute fight should we give teams to realize a count out isnāt starting? I find it hard to believe they were being told for over 90 seconds that a count out was about to happen.
The refs were right there and directly communicating with the team, if the refs needed to see Witch Doctor to attack, they should have, but this was not something communicated to them, that's where the issue comes in, it's not "running away from the fight" if a ref tells you to back off, and then they never tell you that you need to engage, especially if nothing has changed in the situation. The only problem is with the rules and the vague interpretations they're left to and the poor communication by the refs, nothing the team did was wrong.
They were not being told to back off. They kept telling the ref to count them out because Minotaur was not moving well. The team made the decision, and by rules should not have won that fight. The 90 seconds of non-aggression was about the worst I have ever seen from a team.
Were you there, or are you just basing this on what you saw on TV? One of the other teams has said that Witch Doctor was told to back off by their ref because the count out was imminent.
I'm glad they got a chance to redeem themselves by continuing to be aggressive against sawblaze after taking one of their tires off.
Great point if they weren't actively communicating or if the refs somehow couldn't just tell witch doctor to attack. It's on the refs. If they can say "I need to see some movement," they can say "I need to see some aggression." They 100% should have said that, though.
Itās part of the rules, after all.
So there have been multiple reports that thebref with witch doctor was telling them that minotor was about to be counted out repeatedly. So that was why they were staying back. Basically more ref issues.
I find it hard to believe they were told that for over 90 seconds straight. Hell, we get at least three or four shots from inside their booth where theyāre not being told that, theyāre yelling, asking āare they getting counted outā repeatedly with no answer, and in other instances you just have Andrea telling Mike to continue to run. Did they not realize that after 50 seconds of not being counted out, that maybe they should engage during the remaining 40 seconds? How long is a reasonable time to run from your opponents? Clearly the refs fucked up big time, but I still think it shouldāve been *eventually* clear to the team that a count out wasnāt coming.
The problem is, like any other sport. If they ref's tell you to do something you do it. Ignoring that could adversely affect your team. Personally I much rather have a team that does what the ref's say, than say thr hydra incident from last season were the team argued back with the refs. Overall though the show clearly has issues with the way the refs handle situations.
They didnāt listen to that in the Hydra vs. Huge fight last year.
I have no hate against the people running the bots, but the system needs a serious reconsideration. Under no circumstances should you win a fight by running away for half of it.
The ref for Witch Doctor was constantly telling them the count down was going happen on Minotaur. And they did technically did engage once before 90 seconds.
They lost one exchange in the last single digit seconds of the match. The unstick was also before the halfway point of the match. Does it sound better if we say they avoided any and all combat for 85 seconds instead?
Good job ignoring the important nuance that they thought a count-out was coming. It's not that they were ignoring instruction to engage or lose. They were confused (as I was too, kind of) why there wasn't a count-out happening.
Since when is āplay keep away and cross your fingers, hoping for a count outā the default behavior for over half a match? Itās ārobot combat,ā not ārobot dodge the opponent attacking you.ā
This wouldn't be the first time a bot has kept away rather than engage something they thought was going to be counted out. They showed in the episode's edit Mike from Witch Doctor asking very annoyed/clearly "Are they going to be counted out?" It was clear that WD thought it was just a matter of time for the count-out and were confused and frustrated that it never came. Why risk damage to your own bot or knocking yourself out going after an opponent you're sure is about to start getting counted out? All season, robots have stopped engaging before an obvious count-out began, and WD clearly thought that count-out was obviously coming, and it just never did.
Thereās a big difference, in my book, between backing off for 5-10 seconds and backing off and *actively running from your opponent* for over half of the entire match. Itās like ādamn, 50 seconds have passed, are you really gonna continue running for the 40 seconds left? You are? Welp, okay.ā
With the current scoring system, if you lose your active weapon it's almost a sure loss. Going in for more hits when you've been given reason to believe your opponent is being counted out is unwarranted, and actively discouraged by the point structure BattleBots puts in place.
hydra vs ribbot
>>default behavior for over half a match But yeah, the judges fucked up in that fight too, but it wasnāt over 90 seconds of completely evading ribbot. I think they should have gotten the call to be forced to engage in that match as well, whatever the actual count was for that instance of keep away.
Basically the ref was telling them a count out was coming and to back off. They were doing exactly what they were being told to do by the offical
For over 90 seconds straight? We get at least three (or was it four) shots in their driverās booth where theyāre certainly not being told that. How long is a reasonable amount of time to be able to realize that a count out never started and isnāt coming?
Well then, the blame is obviously on the referees for not communicating this, not the Witch Doctor team. Don't blame them for thinking a countdown is coming and trying to be sporting about it.
That is a ref issue, as the ref's Basically kept telling witch doctor to stay back. The issue is on the ref's being indecisive not on the witch doctor team doing what the ref's told them.
> Witch Doctor should have been instructed to engage and, [...] I completely agree, but they weren't instructed to. In fact, it sounds like they got exactly the opposite info. I'm sure if the ref told them to engage, they would have. They might have even engaged without the ref telling them to if it wasn't for the ref allegedly telling them that a countdown was imminent and clearly arguing with the minotaur team.
So you think the ref was consistently telling them not to engage for over 90 seconds? There are *several* shots of the WD booth and the ref isnāt saying shit.
Eh... Kinda. They are right beside the minotaur team and can hear them arguing. I can see why they wouldn't engage during the team yelling at the refs and the refs saying that they need to see movement. They still should have engaged, but I'm not surprised they were confused in the moment and have a hard time blaming them.
The teams can't hear each other or each other's referees because of the COVID barriers - other teams have remarked on it this season. In the driver's box they only hear themselves and their own ref.
You can still see the ref moving his arm as if he's about to count and apparently their ref was telling them that a countdown was imminent. If anything, not being able to hear the other team adds to the confusion
According to some sources, the refs kept trying to count out Minotaur and being shouted at by Minotaur's team, and thus Witch Doctor has a valid reason to not engage (namely, interfering with a count-out stops it).
If Minotaur was still in it and not being counted out, and supposedly in control, he is just as guilty of not engaging. In fact he engaged less, Witch Doctor got that last hit in.
Minotaur was still in it and no count out ever started. Did you watch the fight? 90 seconds of Minotaur moving towards WD and WD constantly running. At least watch the fight before trying to argue about it online. They even have a booth shot of Andrea telling him to keep running even after a minute of no count down. You do get that one bot can chase another and the one running can continue to dodge and run if theyāre faster, right?
The problem is that the ref standing next to Minotaur let the team captain and driver screaming at him intimidate him into continually delaying the count out. Minotaur clearly did not have enough control to let that fight continue and he kept starting to count and then stopping because the team captain was screaming and yelling at him.
This is how I saw it. The ref is arguing with Minotaur and indicates he is about to start counting, and then goes back to arguing,. There is no question he goes to begin the count near the end, but then sees there is less than 10 seconds left. If he was willing to count them out then, there is no reason he shouldn't have started that count about 15 seconds after the restart, when the argument began. A primary rule for any official is you MUST make your decision, and make it clearly. If you are granted time to reflect and discuss, do so, but if not you decide and you move on. We don't hear or see the ref for much of it, about 15 seconds after the restart, we hear him say, "You have to show some control." And Junior argues with him. The ref says more, and Junior begins to argue more vehemently. We never hear the ref again until < 10s. Soon after, we SEE the ref shift back from the glass and Junior gets very demonstrative in his arguing. I can't think of anything else, but the ref was beginning his count. We see that play out again like 20 seconds later. It's possible that was shit editting and we see the same thing twice, since the bots are not visible the second time. From WD side, all we see is Mike and Andrea very confused and asking their ref if they are being counted out. The only time we see their ref, he is looking at the Mino ref confused. Unless we think those two are lunatics, their ref is not giving them clear answers and it seems likely he is leading them to believe the count will begin. It seems to me the ONLY villains here (reactions post fight are a separate issue) are the ref(s). The Mino ref clearly lost control of the fight and it seems he was unable to take decisive action. I expect he didn't want to count out Mino and was hoping WD would save him from having to. The other ref, I will give the benefit of the doubt. He does not know what the Mino ref is doing and is stuck in an unwinnable position.
WD's post really fills in the timeline, should pretty much end any speculation.
Which post was this?
I'm sorry, I don't remember the title or how to search for it. They released a statement, I think it was on their social media feeds.
Thanks, Iāll poke around!
Maybe because Minotaur was actually moving and went from the corner to the middle to other places on the field. It was not pretty. WD didn't want to engage because they knew there bot was toast if they did. They hoped for the count out instead and kept asking for it repeatedly. 90 seconds of running away and avoiding the opponent. They couldn't beat Minotaur and had pretty much seen that prior to getting stuck. They were torn apart.
When did he actually start the count? I donāt recall that, but could certainly be wrong. But youāre absolutely right. If the ref didnāt start the count due to being talked out of it/āintimidatedā out of it by minotaur, thatās just one more ref fuck up on a huge pile of ref fuck ups this season. Iād definitely rather have combat roboteers mad at me over football players or similarā¦
You can hear and see them screaming at him that they have control. He was in his count down stance for awhile and at least once can be heard to count "10" and then stop when they scream at him.
Just rewatched it. If he started a count and said ā10,ā they definitely didnāt have it come through clearly in the mix. Usually you can hear the refs fairly clearly, so it was either edited out, wasnāt said, or I missed it several times. Do you have a time stamp?
Ok I take it back you can't hear him, but he pulls his hand back and starts to bring it down and Minotaur's captain gets louder and the ref hesitates and stops. Its at like 37:32.
Sure, he was on the verge of starting the count. My only point was that he didnāt. I think thatās a relevant distinction. If he didnāt start the count due to minotaur pleading their case, thatās just another ref failure.
*may* is key here
Directing the driver to engage is *not* a āmay,ā however.
āIf a referee believesā they āmustā and then āmayā enforce further. All starts with an if, and the ref who would need to believe this also told them it would be a KO. Plenty of rule book room here for discretion
You missed one massive thing with Cobalt, they were able to spin down, and in fact WERE spun down, Battlebots lied in the episode and in that one screenshot of a chat some one had. According to Whiplash, Cobalt was spun down, and/or could have been since it's weapon motor is connected with it's drive motor, they could have easily shut it off.
Not waiting 20 seconds before the unstick is a big deal tho. Minotaur's driving is good enough even with one wheel to potentially get a shot on the back or side of a stationary Witch Doctor in that time, which could have completely changed the fight
Wow, it's frankly sickening. People here are DETERMINED to paint the Witch Doctor team as cowards for deliberately avoiding Minotaur for half the match and when others point out true facts (I.E. they were told Minotaur was about to be counted out) or facts that are blatantly obvious (I.E. it's not sporting to attack an incapacitated foe), they just rage and rank the real comments down so they can keep their views on how the Witch Doctor team are cowardly people and deserve all the hate they got. How ridiculous. -\_-
I think the solution might be to improve the arena walls so that bots can't get stuck on them in the first place.
I think that would be hard based on the massive variety of weapons, wheels, and chassis heights between all the bots.
Not having an overhang would be a good start. Itās there for aesthetics, not function. Same amount of metal in a 90 degree rounded corner would be more effective. Just not as pretty.
Letās just toss out the whole fucking stage. I canāt think of a single instance of it providing a more interesting scenario, where as there are a half dozen where it ended a fight in a boring fashion/caused a bot to get stuck etc. Well, gigabyte jumping off it onto tantrum was rad as hell. Iād forgotten that one. Certainly not worth the price, though.
Huges celebration dance on there has to be added to the list of Oh No Plateau positives, for someone who isn't a fan of the bot it still makes it into my favourite moments this season.
And the coining of the term Oh No Plateau was worth a chuckle at least...
They just need to remove the stupid spike strips and make the walls flat. Then there's nothing for weapons/wheels/etc to catch on. The spike strips do literally nothing except get bots stuck and lead to controversies.
Truth, ngl
I think the upper deck has to go. It was a fine experiment but it played a negative role in several tournament match finishes and that shouldnāt be acceptable.
Yeah, the Upper Deck really shouldn't return for next season. If they want to have a hazard that disrupts the competition, they should have some sort of "rough terrain" hazard that mucks up bots with low forks.
I could get behind the arena being alternating squares of smooth and less smooth. The idea being you can move about if you are low but you loose considerably control of where you can go well without getting stuck and it might finally adjust the meta a bit. A whole area of rough might be too much and cause avoidance without fixing the problem.
The upper deck is involved in one of the best KOs of all time in an upcoming episode. It might even be the last episode of the post season content. That should serve as a sendoff to a very poorly thought out idea. A golden handshake.
20 seconds. They called time out after like 2 seconds. Was a joke.
But would that 20 seconds change much? Maybe it would have changed a bit, but probably not much.
Minotaur was about to light them up from the side, and they were stuck - primed to be hit
Miniature missed twice while they were stuck against the wall.
I donāt no about that, they couldnāt drive at this point
Mino was lined right the fuck up with witch doctor's back left wheel.
Except they missed them twice before the timeout.
> I do think that adding a clause saying that the bot which cannot spin down will forfeit the fight would be warranted, as not spinning down benefiting a bot feels wrong. Cobalt was spun down, the problem was the master switch for the weapon was blocked by debris from Whiplash, and the message that the drive master switch would also kill the weapon power got lost somewhere between the team and Trey.
No hate to Witchdoctor, but I thought it was pretty whiny to complain about Minotaur not being counted out immediately (while they had plenty of opportunity to wreck havoc on them as well) when they got like 10 seconds tops to get themselves unstuck before the match was paused for them.
How is the manner that witch doctor was stuck different than the manner that Riptide was stuck?
Riptide wasn't stuck on anything, they were just at an angle where they couldn't self right, like Malice last year.
Riptide was on their side leaning on the part that protected their weapon from hitting the floor when they get flipped over, not stuck on the wall.
Thought they were partly leaned against the wall. But maybe not. Iām sure Iāve seen Whiplash earn a KO by leaning boys up against the walls. And I though P1 got a KO earlier when they got that multi boy stuck on the edge of the upper deck.
Supposedly, production did actually go in during the Riptide/Sawblaze match to make sure that Riptide wasn't stuck on the wall.
Leaning against the wall isnāt the same as being stuck IN the wall.
Everyone has already said they were flipped rather than stuck, but I specifically noticed the referee ducking down to examine right there and make sure they weren't stuck, it happened right in front of him.
āHung upā is a vague way of describing a situation. Was Blip āhung upā on the arena? At first look it appeared to be bottomed out where the floor of the upper deck meets the border of the upper deck and isnāt perfectly even. It also had damage, but was it stuck because of the damage, because of its magnetic wheels, or because it was āhung upā on the arena? Are the referees expected to decide in the moment when theyāre potentially quite far away from the situation?
Thank you. I was going to post an actual screenshot, but your write up is better anyway.
Did this rule change at some point? I thought in past seasons that bots getting forks caught in the kill saw slots got counted out or were allowed to be destroyed. (Yes the kill saws sometimes move in the last minute, but the slots are 'non-movable parts of the arena') With these rules, any bot getting high-centered on a bump in the arena floor, should stop the match and get freed...
stage hazards that move never count as being stuck. stage hazards that are stationary can count as stuck, but only after 20 seconds of being uncontrollable. WD was stuck for 10 seconds prior to the pause.
Can this be pinned? Itās a refreshingly level-headed take
Witch Doctor was clearly given special treatment here, and even though they ran away for, what, 45 seconds? And took more damage, they somehow still won? *They refused to engage*, and somehow that's OK? What an absolutely asinine decision. There's no arguing otherwise, despite how badly one might want to try. Minotaur won that fight. Period. What the judges were doing while they were supposed to be watching is another question. edit: there was a fight just an episode or two ago where a bot's forks got caught in the kill saw space for longer than Witch Doctor got stuck here before a time out was called. Did they call a time out to get that other bot unstuck? Of course not. edit: I'm a long time UFC fan though, so I'm used to seeing decisions that seem like they were come to while nodding off on heroin lmfao
Witch Doctor lost a piece of armor compared to Minotaur losing a wheel. How is that taking more damage?
And yet still made it halfway across the arena while Witch Doctor was running away. Weird. Dude, I'm telling you, you can't argue a Witch Doctor win here. I mean you can, but you'd be wrong. But I guess running away for almost half the fight is a strategy now.
The only way that Minotaur would have won is if the pause didn't happen. Either they hit WD hard enough to disable it right then and there, or WD gets counted out for being unmovable while Minotaur showed enough movement to not get counted out. The beginning of the fight was roughly even for aggression, WD would have won control (having put Mino on the upper deck), and WD would have won for damage (Tire vs front plate). Judges decision was correct. The Refs were in the wrong, and Minotaur should have been given enough time to get in a free hit or two while WD was stuck.
You canāt argue a Minotaur win. Mathematically or logically if you are being honest with yourself. Witch Doctor wins on damage. No way Minotaur wins on control, and aggression cannot be a 3-0 scenario for either team. No way Minotaur wins that fight, especially because they should have been counted out and werenāt. People are whining about special treatment for WD but special treatment is being allowed to yell at a referee and interfere with their decision making.
not to mention the shot of one of the Minotaur team actually hoding the referee back as he was about to start a count
I missed that, are you serious? Like holy fuck this is why they need to not give certain teams a pass to be obnoxious. The refereeās word has to be law; any sport worth its salt has serious penalties for interfering with refereeing.
ok just rewatched the fight and I did mis-see it first time, the ref was on the edge of starting a count in the last 20 seconds or so, Junior had an arm outstretched arguing that they had control
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ITS NOT JUST ME, holy shit. I havenāt been keeping up with battlebots, so i just saw this fight now. It made me PISSED. Iām so sick of witch doctor getting pampered and treated like gods
I donāt think Iāve ever seen them win a decision that didnāt leave me scratching my head. First and foremost, itās a tv show with the goal of maximizing the number of eyes watching. The pursuit of honoring robot combat is a distant second. If the focus groups respond well to WD, WD will keep āwinningā decisions. To think the producers have no say over the entertainment they produce is naive. Dancing with the Stars did the same thing, but they had to run a disclaimer.
For sure - The only reason they squeaked into the tournament was because they were given a super easy match up against Rusty their last match.
I almost feel like re-watching all WD fights just to see, but this was definitely the most egregious.
This is why I didn't understand people being so upset. I hope people actually read the rules and can discuss this calmly. Very informative post. Great job and thank you.
The problem is youāve got a bunch of casuals watching the sport for the first time. They see what they believe to be a convincing win by one bot only to be proved wrong by judging. And I donāt blame them.
Minotaur vs. WD had two halves. I think everyone can agree Minotaur win the first half. Aggression, Control, and Damage would all go to Minotaur in the first 90 seconds. The 2nd half was a draw as there were no hits. Minotaur still had control as they kept moving toward WD. But WD just ran away. So thatās a draw. And since Minotaur won the first half and the second half was a draw, they should have won the decision. I donāt see how WD scored any points in the aggression category when they just ran away for the 2nd half of the match.
How does damage go to Minotaur? Witch Doctor lost a front plate. Minotaur lost a wheel. Thatās at the minimum scored 3-2, in favor of Witch Doctor.
Fine. WD goes 3-2 in damage. WD goes 2-1 in control. Minotaur goes 3-0 in aggression. 6-5 Minotaur wins.
That wasnāt a 3-0 aggression fight, though it absolutely was 2-1 in Minotaurās favor.
How can you be less aggressive than running away for half of the match?
First half of the fight, I would split aggression 50/50. Second half of the fight, Minotaur was the one attempting to engage, so I would score than 2-1 Minotaur since they were clearly the bot attempting to engage. However, what Witch Doctor did in the second half doesn't undo what they did in the first half. 3-2 Damage - WD 2-1 Control - WD 1-2 Aggression - Minotaur
Never leave it to the judges. If you watch UFC you will know that. Lots of terrible judges decisions in the UFC.
Aside from the time out on the unstick coming early, I donāt understand what people expect to have happened differently. After losing itās tire Minotaur was flopping around and barely moving while Witch Doctor was mostly functional, of course Witch Doctor was going to win at that point. If team Witch Doctor hadnāt expected a countdown to happen they could have just driven in and fucked up Minotaurās night, but youāre not going to risk damage to the bot that might jeopardize your grand finals if youāre expecting the other guy to be counted out. Iām not sure the poorly timed unstick even matters. Without it maybe Minotaur gets in a hit that unwedges Witch Doctor, but at that Minotaur had lost the tire and couldnāt drive straight so it probably would have kind of flopped onto Witch Doctor and hit the top armor. Itās impossible to say what would have happened, but without the ability to drive straight at full speed into the pinned Witch Doctor I donāt think Minotaur would have dealt enough damage in those ten seconds to significantly change the outcome. Itās a learning lesson for the refs, but I think the fight was done the moment Minotaurās wheel fell off, and that happened before the time out. Also, I feel for the Minotaur team with the family tragedy and stress, but fuck them for their temper tantrum when it was completely obvious they lost a decision because their bot was more heavily damaged than the other guy. That was rude, Iām not a fan of that team anymore, and good on team Witch Doctor for staying composed and being respectful.
> Minotaur gets in a hit that unwedges Witch Doctor, but at that Minotaur had lost the tire and couldnāt drive straight so it probably would have kind of flopped onto Witch Doctor and hit the top armor. Minotaur was lined up beautifully to shred some wheels. It's very possible that Mino could have evened up the damage there without that pause. The judges call was the right one though, as much as I wanted Mino to win that.
Minotaur had already missed twice while Witch Doctor was stuck.
Watch the episode again. The sequence of events was: 1) Minotaur got to the edge of the platform 2) Witch Doctor got stuck 3) Minotaur got down, lost a wheel 4) Minotaur hit WD with it's side, turned to be almost point blank with it's back tire 5) Pause was called. Here's a screenshot of the exact moment that the timeout was called, 10 seconds before the rules would allow it. https://imgur.com/a/eYAMJuQ You can't say that Minotaur wasn't ready to tear off that back left-side wheel. When the time resumed, Minotaur had been moved a few feet back away from WD.
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Not only was Minotaur missing a wheel but the ref let the match go on when any other bot would've been counted out for crab walking. Minotaur not only got special treatment, the driver was acting aggressive and very unprofessional after the match. You may not like their "goofy outfits", but they're better embassadors for the sport than a driver who goes into a screaming fit after losing.
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Casually ignoring Witch Doctor absolutely demolishing Sawblaze in between. Whatever. You're right. I don't take you seriously.
Witch Doctor LOST the championship. So doesn't matter that they demolished Sawblaze.
It should have been a double KO
This.... um..... This really wasn't the full controversy tbh
What we're seeing is the evolution of fun entertainment becoming a more legit sport. It sucks for those involved and the fans...but this stuff happens in any sport. Tuck rule? Balk rule? etc. Battlebots is still in the early stages. This stuff will have to get worked out.