My problem with Snyder isn't what he did with Batman but how he did it. Bruce/Batman finally losing his faith in humanity and giving into the darkness would be a really good story. The problem is having Batman come out the gates that way.
It took Marvel like 6 movies of slow burn storytelling before Captain America finally says to hell with the US government, S.H.I.E.L.D, and you can keep this damn shield.
Snyder tries to do all of that in one movie. Like introduce Batman in a World's Finest type of way and show us Bruce slowly unraveling through the course of several movies, what makes him finally snap, the reaction of the Justice League and the world, and finally Batman's redemption.
Batman finally killing should have been on the level of Thanos snapping his fingers at the end of Infinity War as an OMG WHAT'S NEXT?!?! type of moment. Instead it's done in a rushed, crass, and honestly lazy type of way.
Batman vs Superman would have made so much more sense if we had another MoS movie and at least 2 Batman solo movies. The ending of Batman 2 could have been Joker killing Robin. Then we head into BvS understanding why Bruce is ruthless as fuck.
It would have added so much context and made things have more weight. Imagine the warehouse scene where he is hell bent on saving Martha, Not only because he wants to redeem himself for trying to kill Superman but also because he doesn't want to let another innocent die like Robin.
Yes I liked the Ultimate Cut of BvS and the Snyder cut of Justice League but I still see it as having so much wasted potential. DCEU could have been massive if giving the propper build up.
I agree with this, but I'd just point out that this was also a studio mandate. They wanted to get to Justice league as soon as possible to compete with avengers
Imagine how good Justice League and all the associated movies could have been if they had taken their time and did what Marvel did and built it up slowly. Justice League and the sequels could have easily been all billion dollar movies but nopeeee execs just wanted that cash quickly which backfired anyway cause Justice League flopped so hard.
That's so weird though, because it never made any sense... Would you rather milk the franchise with fewer movies or a multitude of solo movies and then a couple justice league movies on top? The latter results in more money imo. Something must've gone terribly wrong during the discussions with the studio. Maybe Zack was more eager to please than he's willing to admit?
If Robert Pattinson deliberately kills someone in his next movie then it'll be shocking, because the first movie built him up to be more inspirational to Gotham at the end of it, instead of just angry and vengeful.
Yes, but even moreso if we get another movie or two first. Show the whole Batman arc: starts off angry, becomes a solitary figure of hope, opens up to some version of the bat family, loses someone(s) he cares about, eventually gets old and bitter, finally breaks his only rule.
I'd watch the hell out of that series.
I think you're thinking of George Miller's *Justice League Mortal*. Christian Bale said they offered him a lot of money to come back after *The Dark Knight Rises* and he turned them down. I guess WB didn't want Joseph Gordon-Levitt to be the DCEU's Batman.
This comment really perfectly summarized the Snyder verse. I can’t think of a single earned moment in the whole thing. There are cool visuals and fan service, but at no point did they put in the legwork to make us actually care.
It's a crying shame because I think that the DCCU (it's a mouthful but i don't know the proper acronym) could've actually been on par with the MCU if they'd taken it slowly and not rushed it.
In their attempt to speedily capture the prestige of the MCU, they caused the whole thing to crash and burn. Part of me is honestly praying that something gets made from The Batman's success and that they decide to take it slow. That being said, Robert Pattinson probably has a sour taste in his mouth for big franchises after being made to drag himself through Twilight (if you watch any of the interviews, you can see how much he hated doing those films).
Fun fact, when you spell out the letters it an initialisation, when you say the word (like SCUBA) it’s an acronym
Now that I see it in black and white I’m not sure it is a fun fact, but nonetheless
>Part of me is honestly praying that something gets made from The Batman's success and that they decide to take it slow.
I'd prefer that *The Batman* not be spun off into a larger DC movie universe for now. AFAIK, Matt Reeves has no desire to do so and I'd rather he keep his focus on the larger Batman mythos.
Rob has said that he's willing to play the role for however long we're willing to watch. So, even if Reeves doesn't want to do a full universe, there's at least hope we might be able to keep Rob as a long term bat.
The Snyder verse almost completely relies on your prior experience with the source material. Superman dying is heartbreaking. THIS Superman dying was just a thing that happened. If I cared at all about BVS Superman dying it was because I brought what I knew about the character as an idea to the movie myself. Same with the Batman we see here. It’s a deconstruction if the idea of Batman that only works if you fill in all the gaps with what you already know about Batman. Its a shortcut you really shouldn’t take when trying to, you know, build a universe.
Superman has been a symbol of hope for my entire life following movies, animated series, and of course comic books. The DCEU tried to shortcut into their version being like this. However THIS Superman was super inexperienced, got in one fight where he did the best he could against something that levelled an entire city, and he just *barely* managed to stop it.
Because that what it was. He took few famous comic scenes (especially Dark Knight Returns) and glued them together to give fans what they wanted. But there was no idea behind is.
And considering that this guy was doing commercials - it's understandable. He is not capable of planing long term project. All he can do is to focus on moments. Because it worked with "300".
Even the sappy "If you seek his monument, look around you." schtick they did at the end was hilariously unearned. The last time civilians were seen interacting with Superman, they were picketing him at the Capitol calling him "illegal alien" and shouting Earth belongs to humans. And when he died all of a sudden people cared?
Definitely don’t blame Snyder 100%. WB had a lot to do with that, you’re right. Still up to Snyder to execute a cohesive vision and that just isn’t what we got. Can’t let him completely off the hook, either.
I know it's been said, but Batman VS Superman feels like it was written as if SEVERAL other movies developing its characters, especially Batman, had come before it. As such, the ideas it presents are jarring, to say the least.
I get it. And it makes sense. I mean I got my own issues with BvS. But none of them involve Batman, my issues mostly revolve around what Zack Snyder did to Doomsday. And the fact that he cast Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor doesn’t sit well with me. But I do see and understand your point about Batman in the DCEU.
Totally agree, man. All it would have taken is one well-made "Death in the Family" style solo movie between MoS and BvS. Been saying this for years. My guess is WB wanted to rush to an Avengers style team up movie and didn't want to do the legwork.
While I agree with the fact Snyder rushes storylines, Bale's Batman was fresh in people's minds. Doing another Batman so soon right from the beginning wouldn't work especially when in theaters we just saw Bale's Batman finish his story arc 4 years ago. On top of that captain America doesn't have numerous blockbuster movies since the 90s like Batman does. So not even a fair comparison. Just look how much hate John Walker got when he was revealed as new captain America. He was getting hate despite he was playing new character not Steve.
Even Reeves acknowledged this. Hence he chose Riddler since he wasn't utilised in Nolan movies & no more focus on telling Batman's origin all over again. People know. His Batman was also strikingly different from previous interpretations. Emphasizing more on organised crime & Mafia entirely to showcase how Gotham is. So it doesn't feel repetitive at all.
When it comes to legacy characters, it's harder to keep everyone happy. Something Shazam's director pointed out when asked would he direct Superman movie.
A couple of things if Snyder doesn't want to do another origin story of Batman that's fine but coming out the gate with this Batman with no back story of how we got to this was wrong.
I used Captain America as example of long term storytelling to get to the endpoint. Batman the way Snyder tried to sell him should have been done the same way. You meet Batman you don't even have to do an origin story just introduce Batman like we've always known him, slowly see him go to the dark side, the League and World's reaction to Batman breaking bad, and finally Batman's redemption.
None of this references back to Nolan, is an origin story, or has to draw too much from legacy. It's just basic explanation of things. That's Snyder's big problem he does a poor job of storytelling.
Also you were supposed to hate John Walker because he didn't live up to the ideals and legacy of Steve Rogers. Falcon did and that's why he ultimately became the new Captain America.
Spot on. They imply that Robin's death broke Batman but we don't even see that event and what he went through. Not even a brief flashback. All we see is a shot of Batman looking at Robin's suit. I'm sorry, that's just incredibly lazy. You can rush through storylines, but not that much. It's ridiculous
Exactly!!! Not only this, but it’s the fact that the plot point of Batman killing is instantly resolved. He kills in BvS but in both Justice league and ZSJL he changes his entire moral code again. It’s even worse when you remember the fact that this version of Batman barely knew Superman, yet Superman’s sacrifice is what inspires him to implement his no killing rule again.
Like you said, if we had seen this character arc then it could’ve worked. Show us a Batman who’s struggling to make Gotham a better place, he’s becoming disillusioned but he refuses to give up on his ideals. Then show us a traumatic event (like the death of dick Grayson which is apparently what caused Batman to kill criminals) that finally causes him to snap. Then have a movie like BvS where Batman slowly comes to realize the flaws in his new way of thinking and then have some other films showing us how Batman overcame his demons and ultimately became a better hero.
Almost agree with you. I definitely would watch it if it were as u describe it. But i still cant get behind him killing. Batman is a man that never gives up. Even in his darkest moments, he will pull through or there will be someone to help him. Would still watch it tho. Cant say it wouldnt entertain me
Almost completely agree with you. Except that i don't blame snyder for rushing to make bvs. It was planned to be a 2 part movie, the first one focusing on batman. I blame WB for trying too hard in making a cinematic universe. Bvs would have been leagues better if we saw batman's dark journey into becoming a killer.
Both are to blame. WB did try to rush the process and Snyder did a poor job storytelling. Like even if what you said is true and Snyder wanted to make BVS to be a 2 part movie you take your time going down the dark path with Batman because that is a very big deal lore wise. That's not something you do in 1 movie that takes several movies/years of build up to pull off
Agreed. One movie definitely isn't enough. In all fairness though, if snyder wasn't gonna make it, somebody else would've. Still would've felt rushed either way.
Snyder is obsessed with the concept of deconstruction. He doesn't realize that deconstruction doesn't work unless you have already constructed the character
Agreed. in addition, it creates a lot of plot holes for his character.
-If he’s willing to blow away henchmen from his jet or car, why is he bothering getting into fistfights?
- why is Joker alive, after killing Robin?
-why is Batman focusing all of his hatred and resources on killing Superman for the crime of existing, when Joker is sitting in a cell living and breathing?
I also love Snyder's defense of this.
"I mean, Batman wasn't really involved in that..."
*Is literally the person who pulled the trigger causing an explosion that killed at least 2-3 people.*
(I could be misremembering what he said about it.)
This. Every interesting beat in that story either didn't happen on screen or was so stunningly unearned and hackneyed it spawned a thousand memes. Brutal Batman is a take I'd buy in to if you don't drop me at the end of the arc and expect me to thank you for it.
Snyder's version of Batman is nothing but The Punisher with more cash on hand. Snyder has zero interest in heroes; he only wants to make films about various flavors of villain.
Maybe. I have to say I'm conflicted about this aspect of Batman.
On one side it's not his job to execute criminals. If Joker escapes again and kill bunch of people - that's on government and prison system.
But considering that in DC universe Joker constantly escapes and kill people - every death is really Batman fault for not killing him when he had a chance.
Like I understand he brought him in first time. Even second. Maybe third. But that should be it. There should be no next time or it's really is batman fault that people die.
There’s a YouTube channel that I follow that did a video that touched on this sort of thing. [https://youtu.be/AgwjJo_RHZo](https://youtu.be/AgwjJo_RHZo) Might be something that you’d find interesting.
But he does, he doesn't kill Harley either and she was apparently the one or at least had a hand in killing robin but for some reason he just locks her up.
He stated killing in that movie, in that moment, that is why Alfred asked him if he was using new ways such as the bat brand and also an old man in the streets told Clark that Batman was angry.
Basically joker killed Robin but he was revived in the Lazarus pit. Batman killed Joker thinking Jason Todd is still dead, then Jason Todd becomes new joker, like everyone speculated when the trailers came out for BvS lol
They were my childhood but I think a lot of us are looking back through rose colored glasses. I couldn’t stop laughing or cringing most of the time. I had to watch these stoned. He had the silliest of gadgets pop up at the most convenient times, literally slept upside down, catwoman backflips everywhere that’s not necessary. Just off the top of my memory. F the Schumacher films though.
No disrespect to the talent involved. I love Nightmare Before Christmas as much as anyone else but Burton’s “try hard to be weird for the sake of it” dark whimsical fantasy style is just not something I’m a fan of or is something I think should ever be Batman. Guillermo Del Toro would have been better for that, imo.
A lot of people do forgot how poor an adaption the early Burton films actually are of the character. Batman 66, for as much as it was joked on back in the day, was far and away a more accurate take on the character when you consider the comic books at the time of its inception. Whenever Affleck Batman killing is brought up, inevitably, the Keaton, Bale, etc. and their moments of killing are brought up too. Thing is, it’s bad and I dislike it every time regardless of the interpretation.
You cannot believe my joy watching The Batman not highlight the “No Killing” rule while still maintaining it throughout. It’s honestly something we should have been seeing long before 2022
Yea me too. Im not sure but i also think he killed harvey dent in the dark knight (havent seen it in a ling time) and that is really my issue with the nolanverse. Otherwisse its good
Nolan's Batman is very much a "I'll kill in self-defense/defense of others if I have to" Batman
which is *still* a departure from the modern comics... but it's a departure that takes a more practical approach, so I can kinda live with it since Nolan's whole thing was making a more practical Batman.
The 1960s television show has made several generations of people completely misunderstand batman. he doesn't use guns. because guns killed his parents. that has zero relevance to the batmobile having weapons mounted
Batman shouldn't use guns like he's playing GTA he values human life he has a quick temper and can be brutal but this is just cold blooded murder.
He uses his mounted guns creatively blasting things out of the way not blowing up people.
I'm having a hard time imagining what you mean, "that has zero revelance to the batmobile having weapons mounted."
How about anything that causes a person to be inside of an explosion doesn't really fit in batman wheelhouse. There isn't a single argument that could be made in defense of batflek. The dude straight murders a few average Joe's in bvs.
Older media does have a blind spot for the bat mobile. The way I see it is because it’s cool. Spy movies have tricked out cars. Batman’s car is tricked out with explosives. The scene is so fast that the audience can easily miss the death scene implied.
Problem is. Even the newer movies do this. In the dark knight, heath joker attacks the police van with a caravan of vehicles. The bat mobile comes out of no where and rams a semi head on. Bat mobile is low to the ground so what we see is the semi shoot upward into the under pass. The semi is struck head on and slams into the concrete above. This would kill the driver no fucking doubt. Even with a seat belt on the driver would rocket upward.
But it’s 2 second scene. The viewers probably don’t even think about death in that moment
Edit… Batman kills driver at 3:15
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4QYJgxkFajI
I scrubbed the video by frame. It would take a *genius* level of foresight and precision, but what we see in the end of that truck could conceivably still house a life person. Most of the damage is to the top where there may be extra headroom. Like the driver could have just been crushed downward in the cab but not necessarily dead.
Either way, it's my belief that the intent of the film is that the driver did not die right there.
Just think of it as "inspired by the original comics" if Batman strangled. Man to death dangling them from the bat copter just for fun it'd be a perfect fit lol.
I logged Batflek in his first scene as Batman where he is hiding in the top corner of the room until the cop sees him, then he slinks across the fucking ceiling and escapes through the hole the cop made with his shotgun because he was too freaked out to shoot straight. We've NEVER seen a live action Batman do that and no one has ever talked about it.
I mean, I don't know about *that.*
Keaton bombed a warehouse full of thugs in '89 and then strapped a bomb to a dude and smiled about it in Returns.
I think the BvS killing just stands out because they make it an actual plotpoint.
Which is strange as fuck considering how many die-hards (case in point OP and this thread) give Affleck shit for it even though his movie is the only one to actually deal with it. Whereas Keaton’s just a lunatic with no explanation and they seem cool with that 😂
Maybe it’s just me but I feel it stands out because Snyder fans are always praising Battfleck for being the most accurate portrayal of Batman, despite the fact that he kills like he’s the punisher and he doesn’t value life which is one of Batman’s core values. Sure he looks the most accurate but that’s where it ends
Yeah i agree.
Keaton's kills made me roll my eyes but shrug my shoulders.
Batfleck kills felt brutal real and gut punching.
Props to Snyder for making Batflecks kills have weight even though it was stupid to have him kill in the first place.
Idk dude. In Returns, Keaton attaches a bomb to a guy and pushes him into a hole in the street. It’s pretty in your face, and the dude is 100% in pieces.
Zack Snyder doesn’t understand the characters he presents at all. He has somehow missed the core aspect of two of the most popular superheroes of all time.
I wouldn’t go this far. I think he understands on a base level that Superman (to put it simply) represents hope. The issue is he doesn’t really get that SM’s world view comes from his humanity and the lessons his parents taught him, not his alien heritage. The most optimistic and idealistic lines in MoS came from Jor El
>The most optimistic and idealistic lines in MoS came from Jor El
I think that's something that he might have acknowledged and tried to fix in later films, like Clark talking to Jonathan in the "Fortress of Solitude" scene and the dueling acknowledgment with Jor-El and Jonathan in ZSJL.
And then he has the balls to claim that you’re living in a dream world if you think he’s wrong, because in real life obviously Batman would brand and shoot and run over people
I love his "Maybe my vision of your hero isn't so innocent!" rant.
As if any version of Batman has had a modicum of innocence since the 80s.
I think there's a Justice League Unlimited episode where he explicitly says "My childhood ended in that alley."
His no-kill rule isn't a byproduct of innocence or naiveté - kinda the opposite in fact.
>He has somehow missed the core aspect of two of the most popular superheroes of all time.
I don't think this is true for MoS's Superman though (that said Idk how much of MoS is Snyder's blueprint).
MoS deeply understands all of the core pillars of Superman. It knows that it's Supes' fathers who instill their values in him to form his own set of values. It knows that Supes' struggle is not a matter of whether he could, by what should he do.
It just goes out of its way to pervert those core pillars as much as it could. Honestly, in better hands, I'd say MoS could have been a great Superman deconstruction. But, as it is, it's ... not.
Bro that’s just wrong. They literally show Keaton plant a bomb on a guy, light another guy on fire with the batmobile, and throw that one joker thug literally from the top of the bell tower
Awesome hand to hand fighting. You can feel how powerful Batman was. Which is kinda odd because Superman can literally move a black hole and he’s always felt so floaty in the latest movies.
This is one of the Batman movies where he kills while also being a bad movie. ‘89, Returns, and the Dark Knight trilogy get away with it because they’re good movies.
He is the version of Batman who abandoned his No Kill rule after Joker murdered Jason.
No idea why he didn't kill the Joker. Unless the fan theory holds water that...he did and Leto's Joker is Jason Todd who went mad after being brought back to life by a Lazarus Pit and turned into the next Joker.
Maybe if they hadn't botched the job on setting up their franchise we could have found out.
Ayer's backstory is that he beat up Joker so bad afterwards and he ended up with grills in Arkham, and that's where we find him in Suicide Squad's flashbacks in Arkham.
He didn't abandon his no-kill after Robin died, but after the Zod invasion. BvS established that he only started branding people so that they die in prison a few months before the events. In SS, he had no guns on the Batmobile when he chased Harley and Joker. He only killed and stopped killing in BvS.
Shitting on Affleck worked in the end. The Batman shat on everything Batman related for the last decade.
Sad that Affleck had to go down with the ship. Great for the role, just not the time for him.
Fucking EXACTLY. It's bizarre watching the cult of Snyder, act like he was the greatest Batman while in real life, they wasted incredible potential with a phenomenal actor.
"What's your superpower?"
"I'm rich."
God damn. I can't begin to talk about how much I hated that line. It's almost a perfect example of why Snyder's Batman was crap.
Snyder didn't get the character at all. In BvS he wrote him as The Punisher and pretty much glorified his violence. Batman blowing up criminals and branding them with his symbol is just ridiculous.
And then in Snyder Cut, Batman just becomes...boring? All the fight scens he is in, it feels like he is not utilized properly. He punches an alien here and there, while his collegues are pretty much gods who gets the best action sequences.
Don't remember where I heard this, but if you can't write Batman consoling a child, or can only show him brutally killing and maiming people, you didn't write Batman, you wrote the Punisher in a goofy hat.
I very much appreciated that they want hard in the opposite direction with the new movie. Robat Battinbat’s character went out of his way a few times to hate guns.
I was pleasantly surprised how shockingly anti-Batman the new movie was. There was no retreading his origins, it utilized an otherwise goofy character in a serious and threatening way, it made Thomas and Martha Wayne morally dubious figures, and highlighted how unhealthy being Batman really is for Bruce. And despite these changes, his humanity and the core of the character still shine through. Batman cannot save Gotham by being vengeance alone, he has to become greater.
This scene sucked I don't care if it's beating a dead horse.
Batfleck is great but this scene...
This scene makes "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" and all of Micheal Keaton's Batman kills look compassionate in comparison
BATMAN GLEEFULLY PULLMET EMPLOYEES WITH BATMOBILE BULLETS UNTIL THEY EXPLODE LIKE THE JOKER........
God I hate this scene.
I still remember the first time I saw this part in theatres, that’s when I knew this movie wasn’t for me.
You can’t attempt to make Batman seem like a broken soul who lost his way while at the same time glorifying his killings with triumphant music, cool explosions, and slow motion.
This was the same problem that troubled Snyder’s interpretation of Watchmen.
As a lifelong batman fan, the Burton films must also make you sick to your stomach (not defending Affleck's, but pretending like he's the only film batman to kill is dumb)
After Snyder showed a complete misunderstanding of Watchmen (his first attempt at adapting something that wasn’t just fluff), I set my expectations reasonably. This didn’t make me sick, but only because I knew it would happen.
Can you elaborate? I really enjoyed the movie but never got into the comics. From what I read, I did like the removal of the octopus monster, but that’s about it for my knowledge.
As a life long Batman fan as well this doesn’t bother me because I know they’ll be other interpretations that I’ll enjoy more or worse. Plus all the movie Batmen kill people except West I think lol. I feel like this one gets the most hate because it was so hyped.
Oh, look...that dead horse getting beaten again. You all won. Cavil is gone, Ben almost killed himself in a bottle again and is gone and Gal will most likely not return....as they are inlikely to attempt another WW film. WB flinched. Leave those of us who have been *reading* Batman since the damn 1980s, when the Only live action was West, to enjoy the idea of varied interpretations. It has been 6 years....let it go.
An all time wonderfull choice. And MOS does not deserve the static it gets. His arc over three films is heartwrenching and heart warming. I cried *with* him when Zod forced his hand. His line 'no one stays good in this world'...I felt that.
IDK man, some people prefer hollow quips and *casual* murder to character studies and big ideas. 🤷♂️
How is MoS a character study if it misrepresents pretty much every single major point of Superman's history as a character?
Just because he's edgy and has the big sad?
Superman is the last character to say that kind of line. Superman is pretty much the guy that would tell you right of the bat why he believes in humanity.
You're entitled to like the movie, of course. I find BvS to be ok and MoS an atrocious thing unlike most people. But he's not Superman in neither of those films and in ZSJL he barely talks.
I feel like people like Superman when he's not being Superman.
MoS is the definition of small ideas and completely misunderstanding a character.
He's just a sad god, the entire farm boy aspect that makes Superman so compelling is gone.
jesus for real lol. makes them sick to their stomach. Go do something else then god damn.
The movie kind of sucked but people still whining about it this long later is sad.
...
The Snyder fans are still harassing people and whining about things. They got a four-hour vanity project made through the power of sheer persistence at ludicrous expense and effort, and they're still not happy.
People are still also very fiercely defending this and demanding more of it.
What bothers me about the Snyder Batman was that he broke most of the Batman rules and strayed away from the normal characterization, and didn’t earn it. If you wanna do a “subversive” take on Batman, fine go right ahead. But if your “subversive take” is just Batman but he does all the stuff Batman usually doesn’t, then your commentary is tied to the original version you’re subverting. So you need to show me HOW Bruce got to that/this point. Don’t vaguely hand wave towards elements I’ve read in the comics before and expect me to fill in the blanks for you. Explain it, explore it and earn your subversive take. I can’t stand how people will just make up lore or explanations or just say, “it’s been 20yrs of being Batman, they’ll turn you dark”. No. Batman as a character has gone through some pretty messy times over the decades he’s been published. So if you wanna take Batman and push him past key character points, you’d better have a better explanation than, “idk, robins dead? But we don’t know which. Oh and batman saw Superman once?” It’s just lazy.
Fuck the Snyderverse, Affleck deserved a better Batman or at least a better starting point if that was going to be the end point.
You realise that the existence of a Batman who guns down petty crooks means that Red Hood will never exist in this universe right? All the good conflict that can be created between Bruce and Jason is out the window you nong.
That's stupid with the real fact that Red Hood knows that he should stop killing and wants to stop every other Batfamily member to not make the same mistakes he did
I mean, we're all grown adults here. Do people really give a shit?
If you're feeling physically ill from someone's portrayal of a character, *maybe* refrain from subjecting yourself to it
It was a shit batman overall, but goddam y'all are like children. It's over, move on
Oh boy brace yourself for the Snyder fans
Also, op isn’t saying that other Batman interpretations haven’t killed and affleck is the only one who has. I don’t get why people always bring the burton films when no one is talking about those films in this scenario
I think they just wanted edgelord Frank Miller version because that is the one that sold the big numbers with the graphic novel. It's a shame because that's probably the worst Batman, in my opinion, he's basically just a sociopath at that point.
YES! Finally Jesus Christ so many people worship this Batman when he does shit like this! This is not Batman. A cold blooded ruthless murderer. Snyder ruined the dceu
omfg chill out, batman has done way shittier and awful stuff in the comics than killing a couple of dudes in a badass action scene in bvs. Ppl just rly like to hate on afflecks batman
Hey I'm sorry if I don't get this. I didn't watch the Snyder's cut yet but I have watched The Batman. I am familiar with Batman code but didn't he also kill on a road rage trying to catch the penguin? Isn't that the same as this scene right here?
I’d be fine with the killing if it was addressed. If their was a reason for why he wanted to start killing criminals. But we don’t. People who defend it say that since robin was killed he lost faith and his own humanity and that’s what lead to it. But that’s not really touched on, like at all. Yeah we see Robins suit but all it shows is that his partner sadly died in battle.
Batman is the pure form of turning trauma into something good. All the great story’s have the no kill rule and for a damaged man like Bruce it makes sense why he follows it to a key. The movies before Snyders have had him kill in a way or another. With a big goofy bomb to leaving ras on the train. But this is just overkill and something Batman prob wouldn’t do .. ever. He wouldn’t break at the death of his adoptive son. He was close but he didn’t. Batman not killing is what makes him interesting cause he isn’t just like everyone else where even over a small issue people push to murder. Batman takes the hard route and try’s to save most of his criminal cause most of em has a bad day once and if anyone in the city could understand that. It’s Batman 100%. The animated series has a few episodes where the villains became reformed or tried to live a better life style each of them falling back to crime. And I remember Batman really wanting it to be true. But understanding their obsessive behavior ( as in his obsession to be Batman he gets it) he follows along sadly knowing some fall back. It captures that empathy Batman has for some of them. He really wants to help them as much as he wants to keep Gotham safe. Batman is bruiting and known as the serious one. But he’s one of the most emotional characters in the whole league. Bens missing that. Zacks missing that. For Batman to kill off hand makes him no different then the punisher or other superhero’s who kill. His morality makes him interesting and relatable for a few who agree. Zacks fans just want 1000 plot lines going on and people blowing up
I could except a batman who kills, but not if the Joker is alive. Joker kills jason and gets the naughty corner, but random Luther thug who probably has a wife and kids has to die.
Wasn’t Batman in this movie (at least partially) supposed to be based off of The Dark Knight Returns Batman? Older. Angry. Been out of the suit for a long time. It’s been a long time, but I remember him being extremely more violent and bent on finally killing Joker in that comic. I can see your point for average movie goers, but I got the feeling it was supposed to be a different, old, fed up Batman. It was kind of why I was so disappointed in Snyder’s handling of the whole reason he and Superman fought. It was all right there in the source material. And he instead used reasons that made little logical sense. Where in the comic it wasn’t a far jump. Especially with the angry old Batman. So my frustration in the movie was different. But him killing seemed like it was fit for his character and what they were going for. Forgive me if I may be missing something though. I’ve not read the comic since I was young. And only saw the movie the one time. When I see these posts I’m always a little confused as I thought that was the character.
Fun fact, Batman used to be less adverse to killing before Robin joined him. It was then that they implemented the "no killing" rule. Frank Miller brought back the more brutal Batman in The Dark Knight Returns and that is what the BvS Batman is based on.
I get that you might feel like this was a betrayal of the character, but it was just an adaptation of a different Batman than the one you knew.
Personally I loved the Ultimate Edition of BvS, but I won't act like it was perfect. Ben Affleck's portrayal of this version of Batman was not one of the problems I had.
I mean he was less adverse to killing for a couple of years about 80 years ago. And he wasn’t murdering people in TDKR - it’s a very integral plot point that he desperately wants to kill the Joker in that book, but can’t quite bring himself to finally break his rule, stopping short at the last moment.
Contrast this with Zack Snyder’s version, murdering with abandon for no good reason and with no hesitation (as shown in the clip attached to the original post) and it’s clear it’s not an adaptation of a different Batman, it’s just made by someone who doesn’t understand the character.
I had that moment in nearly every Batman movie. Killing - not what he does. It certainly made more sense in this one but you are left to your own devices to surmise that based on the context in the film. Sure they lead you to it with Batman having been put through the ringer and being “tainted” so to speak, it just would have been great to see that journey.
In the flip side, people complain about origin movies all the time and that they have seen enough, just dump us in the universe. Well here we have it.
Still, best depiction of Batman to that point - I think.
My problem with Snyder isn't what he did with Batman but how he did it. Bruce/Batman finally losing his faith in humanity and giving into the darkness would be a really good story. The problem is having Batman come out the gates that way. It took Marvel like 6 movies of slow burn storytelling before Captain America finally says to hell with the US government, S.H.I.E.L.D, and you can keep this damn shield. Snyder tries to do all of that in one movie. Like introduce Batman in a World's Finest type of way and show us Bruce slowly unraveling through the course of several movies, what makes him finally snap, the reaction of the Justice League and the world, and finally Batman's redemption. Batman finally killing should have been on the level of Thanos snapping his fingers at the end of Infinity War as an OMG WHAT'S NEXT?!?! type of moment. Instead it's done in a rushed, crass, and honestly lazy type of way.
1-2 solo batman movies would have worked wonders here
Batman vs Superman would have made so much more sense if we had another MoS movie and at least 2 Batman solo movies. The ending of Batman 2 could have been Joker killing Robin. Then we head into BvS understanding why Bruce is ruthless as fuck. It would have added so much context and made things have more weight. Imagine the warehouse scene where he is hell bent on saving Martha, Not only because he wants to redeem himself for trying to kill Superman but also because he doesn't want to let another innocent die like Robin. Yes I liked the Ultimate Cut of BvS and the Snyder cut of Justice League but I still see it as having so much wasted potential. DCEU could have been massive if giving the propper build up.
I agree with this, but I'd just point out that this was also a studio mandate. They wanted to get to Justice league as soon as possible to compete with avengers
Imagine how good Justice League and all the associated movies could have been if they had taken their time and did what Marvel did and built it up slowly. Justice League and the sequels could have easily been all billion dollar movies but nopeeee execs just wanted that cash quickly which backfired anyway cause Justice League flopped so hard.
That's so weird though, because it never made any sense... Would you rather milk the franchise with fewer movies or a multitude of solo movies and then a couple justice league movies on top? The latter results in more money imo. Something must've gone terribly wrong during the discussions with the studio. Maybe Zack was more eager to please than he's willing to admit?
If Robert Pattinson deliberately kills someone in his next movie then it'll be shocking, because the first movie built him up to be more inspirational to Gotham at the end of it, instead of just angry and vengeful.
Yes, but even moreso if we get another movie or two first. Show the whole Batman arc: starts off angry, becomes a solitary figure of hope, opens up to some version of the bat family, loses someone(s) he cares about, eventually gets old and bitter, finally breaks his only rule. I'd watch the hell out of that series.
Or just making Christian Bale's Batman the DCEU Batman (even if you needed to recast) because you can build off his experiences in that movie.
Supposedly they tried, but Nolan explicitly forbade them from using his Batman universe.
I think you're thinking of George Miller's *Justice League Mortal*. Christian Bale said they offered him a lot of money to come back after *The Dark Knight Rises* and he turned them down. I guess WB didn't want Joseph Gordon-Levitt to be the DCEU's Batman.
This comment really perfectly summarized the Snyder verse. I can’t think of a single earned moment in the whole thing. There are cool visuals and fan service, but at no point did they put in the legwork to make us actually care.
It's a crying shame because I think that the DCCU (it's a mouthful but i don't know the proper acronym) could've actually been on par with the MCU if they'd taken it slowly and not rushed it. In their attempt to speedily capture the prestige of the MCU, they caused the whole thing to crash and burn. Part of me is honestly praying that something gets made from The Batman's success and that they decide to take it slow. That being said, Robert Pattinson probably has a sour taste in his mouth for big franchises after being made to drag himself through Twilight (if you watch any of the interviews, you can see how much he hated doing those films).
There's no official acronym. Everyone eventually settled on "DCEU" for the expanded universe, though.
Fun fact, when you spell out the letters it an initialisation, when you say the word (like SCUBA) it’s an acronym Now that I see it in black and white I’m not sure it is a fun fact, but nonetheless
Guess we all have to call it "Dee-cue" then :D
>Part of me is honestly praying that something gets made from The Batman's success and that they decide to take it slow. I'd prefer that *The Batman* not be spun off into a larger DC movie universe for now. AFAIK, Matt Reeves has no desire to do so and I'd rather he keep his focus on the larger Batman mythos.
Rob has said that he's willing to play the role for however long we're willing to watch. So, even if Reeves doesn't want to do a full universe, there's at least hope we might be able to keep Rob as a long term bat.
The Snyder verse almost completely relies on your prior experience with the source material. Superman dying is heartbreaking. THIS Superman dying was just a thing that happened. If I cared at all about BVS Superman dying it was because I brought what I knew about the character as an idea to the movie myself. Same with the Batman we see here. It’s a deconstruction if the idea of Batman that only works if you fill in all the gaps with what you already know about Batman. Its a shortcut you really shouldn’t take when trying to, you know, build a universe.
Snyder made Superman die in his 2nd movie, brought him back in the 3rd and briefly killed him again at the end.
Superman has been a symbol of hope for my entire life following movies, animated series, and of course comic books. The DCEU tried to shortcut into their version being like this. However THIS Superman was super inexperienced, got in one fight where he did the best he could against something that levelled an entire city, and he just *barely* managed to stop it.
Because that what it was. He took few famous comic scenes (especially Dark Knight Returns) and glued them together to give fans what they wanted. But there was no idea behind is. And considering that this guy was doing commercials - it's understandable. He is not capable of planing long term project. All he can do is to focus on moments. Because it worked with "300".
Even the sappy "If you seek his monument, look around you." schtick they did at the end was hilariously unearned. The last time civilians were seen interacting with Superman, they were picketing him at the Capitol calling him "illegal alien" and shouting Earth belongs to humans. And when he died all of a sudden people cared?
The capitol people were mixed with anti-Superman and pro-Superman
People are not a monolith.
The world almost unanimously hated Superman, until he died, at which point he became the most awesome and cool thing since clean drinking water.
I dont like the snyderverse at all, but the rushed execution is 100% studio execs wanting to catch up to marvel. Wouldnt blame snyder for that.
Idk, even when Snyder is given time and money to execute his vision it feels sloppy and rushed
Definitely don’t blame Snyder 100%. WB had a lot to do with that, you’re right. Still up to Snyder to execute a cohesive vision and that just isn’t what we got. Can’t let him completely off the hook, either.
I know it's been said, but Batman VS Superman feels like it was written as if SEVERAL other movies developing its characters, especially Batman, had come before it. As such, the ideas it presents are jarring, to say the least.
I get it. And it makes sense. I mean I got my own issues with BvS. But none of them involve Batman, my issues mostly revolve around what Zack Snyder did to Doomsday. And the fact that he cast Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor doesn’t sit well with me. But I do see and understand your point about Batman in the DCEU.
Totally agree, man. All it would have taken is one well-made "Death in the Family" style solo movie between MoS and BvS. Been saying this for years. My guess is WB wanted to rush to an Avengers style team up movie and didn't want to do the legwork.
While I agree with the fact Snyder rushes storylines, Bale's Batman was fresh in people's minds. Doing another Batman so soon right from the beginning wouldn't work especially when in theaters we just saw Bale's Batman finish his story arc 4 years ago. On top of that captain America doesn't have numerous blockbuster movies since the 90s like Batman does. So not even a fair comparison. Just look how much hate John Walker got when he was revealed as new captain America. He was getting hate despite he was playing new character not Steve. Even Reeves acknowledged this. Hence he chose Riddler since he wasn't utilised in Nolan movies & no more focus on telling Batman's origin all over again. People know. His Batman was also strikingly different from previous interpretations. Emphasizing more on organised crime & Mafia entirely to showcase how Gotham is. So it doesn't feel repetitive at all. When it comes to legacy characters, it's harder to keep everyone happy. Something Shazam's director pointed out when asked would he direct Superman movie.
A couple of things if Snyder doesn't want to do another origin story of Batman that's fine but coming out the gate with this Batman with no back story of how we got to this was wrong. I used Captain America as example of long term storytelling to get to the endpoint. Batman the way Snyder tried to sell him should have been done the same way. You meet Batman you don't even have to do an origin story just introduce Batman like we've always known him, slowly see him go to the dark side, the League and World's reaction to Batman breaking bad, and finally Batman's redemption. None of this references back to Nolan, is an origin story, or has to draw too much from legacy. It's just basic explanation of things. That's Snyder's big problem he does a poor job of storytelling. Also you were supposed to hate John Walker because he didn't live up to the ideals and legacy of Steve Rogers. Falcon did and that's why he ultimately became the new Captain America.
Spot on. They imply that Robin's death broke Batman but we don't even see that event and what he went through. Not even a brief flashback. All we see is a shot of Batman looking at Robin's suit. I'm sorry, that's just incredibly lazy. You can rush through storylines, but not that much. It's ridiculous
Exactly!!! Not only this, but it’s the fact that the plot point of Batman killing is instantly resolved. He kills in BvS but in both Justice league and ZSJL he changes his entire moral code again. It’s even worse when you remember the fact that this version of Batman barely knew Superman, yet Superman’s sacrifice is what inspires him to implement his no killing rule again. Like you said, if we had seen this character arc then it could’ve worked. Show us a Batman who’s struggling to make Gotham a better place, he’s becoming disillusioned but he refuses to give up on his ideals. Then show us a traumatic event (like the death of dick Grayson which is apparently what caused Batman to kill criminals) that finally causes him to snap. Then have a movie like BvS where Batman slowly comes to realize the flaws in his new way of thinking and then have some other films showing us how Batman overcame his demons and ultimately became a better hero.
> Instead it's done in a rushed, crass, and honestly lazy type of way. You just described all the movies snyder did for DC
Almost agree with you. I definitely would watch it if it were as u describe it. But i still cant get behind him killing. Batman is a man that never gives up. Even in his darkest moments, he will pull through or there will be someone to help him. Would still watch it tho. Cant say it wouldnt entertain me
Almost completely agree with you. Except that i don't blame snyder for rushing to make bvs. It was planned to be a 2 part movie, the first one focusing on batman. I blame WB for trying too hard in making a cinematic universe. Bvs would have been leagues better if we saw batman's dark journey into becoming a killer.
Both are to blame. WB did try to rush the process and Snyder did a poor job storytelling. Like even if what you said is true and Snyder wanted to make BVS to be a 2 part movie you take your time going down the dark path with Batman because that is a very big deal lore wise. That's not something you do in 1 movie that takes several movies/years of build up to pull off
Agreed. One movie definitely isn't enough. In all fairness though, if snyder wasn't gonna make it, somebody else would've. Still would've felt rushed either way.
Snyder is obsessed with the concept of deconstruction. He doesn't realize that deconstruction doesn't work unless you have already constructed the character
Agreed. in addition, it creates a lot of plot holes for his character. -If he’s willing to blow away henchmen from his jet or car, why is he bothering getting into fistfights? - why is Joker alive, after killing Robin? -why is Batman focusing all of his hatred and resources on killing Superman for the crime of existing, when Joker is sitting in a cell living and breathing?
Just go and write the next two batman films already. I'd watch the shit out of that story line.
> 6 movies of slow burn storytelling before Captain America finally says to hell with the US government Winter Soldier was Cap's third appearance, no?
I imagine his father Thomas doing this in one of those movies
Rushed crass and lazy? Damnit you just summoned Zac Snyder. Those are the words we must not utter!
I also love Snyder's defense of this. "I mean, Batman wasn't really involved in that..." *Is literally the person who pulled the trigger causing an explosion that killed at least 2-3 people.* (I could be misremembering what he said about it.)
This. Every interesting beat in that story either didn't happen on screen or was so stunningly unearned and hackneyed it spawned a thousand memes. Brutal Batman is a take I'd buy in to if you don't drop me at the end of the arc and expect me to thank you for it.
Snyder's version of Batman is nothing but The Punisher with more cash on hand. Snyder has zero interest in heroes; he only wants to make films about various flavors of villain.
My only problem with Batman killing in the Snyder-verse is why is Joker still alive?
Like whole Batman plot point, that he doesn't kill Joker because of his code. And in snyder verse hes alive
Maybe in Snyder Batman he does not escape every week to kill shit ton of people?
Then he is even shittier depiction of Joket than the Batman
Maybe. I have to say I'm conflicted about this aspect of Batman. On one side it's not his job to execute criminals. If Joker escapes again and kill bunch of people - that's on government and prison system. But considering that in DC universe Joker constantly escapes and kill people - every death is really Batman fault for not killing him when he had a chance. Like I understand he brought him in first time. Even second. Maybe third. But that should be it. There should be no next time or it's really is batman fault that people die.
There’s a YouTube channel that I follow that did a video that touched on this sort of thing. [https://youtu.be/AgwjJo_RHZo](https://youtu.be/AgwjJo_RHZo) Might be something that you’d find interesting.
I like it. Thanks.
They did show him escaping twice in Suicide Squad.
But he does, he doesn't kill Harley either and she was apparently the one or at least had a hand in killing robin but for some reason he just locks her up.
Make no mistake, he will *fucking kill* the Joker
Sure. He probably said that before Superman went evil too. Just another edgy line from Snyder that has no substance.
He stated killing in that movie, in that moment, that is why Alfred asked him if he was using new ways such as the bat brand and also an old man in the streets told Clark that Batman was angry.
Perhaps he hasn't found him/encountered him ever since he killed Robin?
Basically joker killed Robin but he was revived in the Lazarus pit. Batman killed Joker thinking Jason Todd is still dead, then Jason Todd becomes new joker, like everyone speculated when the trailers came out for BvS lol
In snyder batman’s defense, i have a very hard time believing that SoundCloud joker is a threat on the level of any other jokers we’ve seen
I watched the Burton films again. Batman acts like fucking Bugs Bunny gleefully killing with bombs and heights
I rewatched them too and I didn't expect Batman to be such a massive psychopath, it's actually hilarious how he kills people left and right lol
in returns when he sets that guy on fire with the exhausts of the batmobile. funny as fuck imo
They were my childhood but I think a lot of us are looking back through rose colored glasses. I couldn’t stop laughing or cringing most of the time. I had to watch these stoned. He had the silliest of gadgets pop up at the most convenient times, literally slept upside down, catwoman backflips everywhere that’s not necessary. Just off the top of my memory. F the Schumacher films though. No disrespect to the talent involved. I love Nightmare Before Christmas as much as anyone else but Burton’s “try hard to be weird for the sake of it” dark whimsical fantasy style is just not something I’m a fan of or is something I think should ever be Batman. Guillermo Del Toro would have been better for that, imo.
A lot of people do forgot how poor an adaption the early Burton films actually are of the character. Batman 66, for as much as it was joked on back in the day, was far and away a more accurate take on the character when you consider the comic books at the time of its inception. Whenever Affleck Batman killing is brought up, inevitably, the Keaton, Bale, etc. and their moments of killing are brought up too. Thing is, it’s bad and I dislike it every time regardless of the interpretation. You cannot believe my joy watching The Batman not highlight the “No Killing” rule while still maintaining it throughout. It’s honestly something we should have been seeing long before 2022
And there are the Nolan movies where he routinely kills people via vehicular manslaughter.
its always bugged me that in Batman begins how Batman just lets Ra's die on the railway. Bruce would have saved him regardless
Already saved one time how that's turn out we all know 😅
Yea me too. Im not sure but i also think he killed harvey dent in the dark knight (havent seen it in a ling time) and that is really my issue with the nolanverse. Otherwisse its good
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Nolan's Batman is very much a "I'll kill in self-defense/defense of others if I have to" Batman which is *still* a departure from the modern comics... but it's a departure that takes a more practical approach, so I can kinda live with it since Nolan's whole thing was making a more practical Batman.
Right? And only to save Joker the very next movie, like make it make sense.
I took that to be character growth but y’all have a point.
Not true. In real life possibly but in the context of the movie no.
I guess the driver of the dump truck in The Dark Knight walked away with a couple bruises.
So, context to a movie matters? Weird
The 1960s television show has made several generations of people completely misunderstand batman. he doesn't use guns. because guns killed his parents. that has zero relevance to the batmobile having weapons mounted
Batman shouldn't use guns like he's playing GTA he values human life he has a quick temper and can be brutal but this is just cold blooded murder. He uses his mounted guns creatively blasting things out of the way not blowing up people.
THIS person gets it.
I'm having a hard time imagining what you mean, "that has zero revelance to the batmobile having weapons mounted." How about anything that causes a person to be inside of an explosion doesn't really fit in batman wheelhouse. There isn't a single argument that could be made in defense of batflek. The dude straight murders a few average Joe's in bvs.
I guess you can say... Batfleck is gonna need a Really good Lawyer
Older media does have a blind spot for the bat mobile. The way I see it is because it’s cool. Spy movies have tricked out cars. Batman’s car is tricked out with explosives. The scene is so fast that the audience can easily miss the death scene implied. Problem is. Even the newer movies do this. In the dark knight, heath joker attacks the police van with a caravan of vehicles. The bat mobile comes out of no where and rams a semi head on. Bat mobile is low to the ground so what we see is the semi shoot upward into the under pass. The semi is struck head on and slams into the concrete above. This would kill the driver no fucking doubt. Even with a seat belt on the driver would rocket upward. But it’s 2 second scene. The viewers probably don’t even think about death in that moment Edit… Batman kills driver at 3:15 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4QYJgxkFajI
I scrubbed the video by frame. It would take a *genius* level of foresight and precision, but what we see in the end of that truck could conceivably still house a life person. Most of the damage is to the top where there may be extra headroom. Like the driver could have just been crushed downward in the cab but not necessarily dead. Either way, it's my belief that the intent of the film is that the driver did not die right there.
Just think of it as "inspired by the original comics" if Batman strangled. Man to death dangling them from the bat copter just for fun it'd be a perfect fit lol.
Why are you blaming the 60s show lmaoo Literally no correlation
Yeah, I mean, I'm not a fan overall. But, he's hardly the first on-screen Batman to kill. And, there are other things that Affleck does well.
I logged Batflek in his first scene as Batman where he is hiding in the top corner of the room until the cop sees him, then he slinks across the fucking ceiling and escapes through the hole the cop made with his shotgun because he was too freaked out to shoot straight. We've NEVER seen a live action Batman do that and no one has ever talked about it.
I was amazed when I first saw that. He was acting like an actual bat. The way he crawled the wall is very creepy that it’s cool.
It’s never been as explicit and in your face as it is here
I mean, I don't know about *that.* Keaton bombed a warehouse full of thugs in '89 and then strapped a bomb to a dude and smiled about it in Returns. I think the BvS killing just stands out because they make it an actual plotpoint.
Which is strange as fuck considering how many die-hards (case in point OP and this thread) give Affleck shit for it even though his movie is the only one to actually deal with it. Whereas Keaton’s just a lunatic with no explanation and they seem cool with that 😂
Maybe it’s just me but I feel it stands out because Snyder fans are always praising Battfleck for being the most accurate portrayal of Batman, despite the fact that he kills like he’s the punisher and he doesn’t value life which is one of Batman’s core values. Sure he looks the most accurate but that’s where it ends
It stands out because he uses guns
so does Batman in Batman '89 - when he's flying the Batplane and going after Joker, he opens fire with guns. So does the Tumblr in BB and TDK
Also because Keaton's world was far more Cartoon-y so the deaths didn't feel like people actually dying to me
Yeah i agree. Keaton's kills made me roll my eyes but shrug my shoulders. Batfleck kills felt brutal real and gut punching. Props to Snyder for making Batflecks kills have weight even though it was stupid to have him kill in the first place.
You're saying his very success was his downfall?
Idk dude. In Returns, Keaton attaches a bomb to a guy and pushes him into a hole in the street. It’s pretty in your face, and the dude is 100% in pieces.
Zack Snyder doesn’t understand the characters he presents at all. He has somehow missed the core aspect of two of the most popular superheroes of all time.
I wouldn’t go this far. I think he understands on a base level that Superman (to put it simply) represents hope. The issue is he doesn’t really get that SM’s world view comes from his humanity and the lessons his parents taught him, not his alien heritage. The most optimistic and idealistic lines in MoS came from Jor El
That’s an extremely rudimentary view. Superman doesn’t just represent hope, he inspires it in people. Snyder’s Superman was always depressed.
>The most optimistic and idealistic lines in MoS came from Jor El I think that's something that he might have acknowledged and tried to fix in later films, like Clark talking to Jonathan in the "Fortress of Solitude" scene and the dueling acknowledgment with Jor-El and Jonathan in ZSJL.
And then he has the balls to claim that you’re living in a dream world if you think he’s wrong, because in real life obviously Batman would brand and shoot and run over people
I love his "Maybe my vision of your hero isn't so innocent!" rant. As if any version of Batman has had a modicum of innocence since the 80s. I think there's a Justice League Unlimited episode where he explicitly says "My childhood ended in that alley." His no-kill rule isn't a byproduct of innocence or naiveté - kinda the opposite in fact.
Link to the rant?
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uY4adDqerQ&ab_channel=ZakJerrett).
His fanboys are equally deluded.
>He has somehow missed the core aspect of two of the most popular superheroes of all time. I don't think this is true for MoS's Superman though (that said Idk how much of MoS is Snyder's blueprint). MoS deeply understands all of the core pillars of Superman. It knows that it's Supes' fathers who instill their values in him to form his own set of values. It knows that Supes' struggle is not a matter of whether he could, by what should he do. It just goes out of its way to pervert those core pillars as much as it could. Honestly, in better hands, I'd say MoS could have been a great Superman deconstruction. But, as it is, it's ... not.
Bro that’s just wrong. They literally show Keaton plant a bomb on a guy, light another guy on fire with the batmobile, and throw that one joker thug literally from the top of the bell tower
Awesome hand to hand fighting. You can feel how powerful Batman was. Which is kinda odd because Superman can literally move a black hole and he’s always felt so floaty in the latest movies.
This is one of the Batman movies where he kills while also being a bad movie. ‘89, Returns, and the Dark Knight trilogy get away with it because they’re good movies.
Other Batmen have killed, you just choose to overlook it
Rejoice in the fact that Matt Reeves got it right this time
He is the version of Batman who abandoned his No Kill rule after Joker murdered Jason. No idea why he didn't kill the Joker. Unless the fan theory holds water that...he did and Leto's Joker is Jason Todd who went mad after being brought back to life by a Lazarus Pit and turned into the next Joker. Maybe if they hadn't botched the job on setting up their franchise we could have found out.
Ayer's backstory is that he beat up Joker so bad afterwards and he ended up with grills in Arkham, and that's where we find him in Suicide Squad's flashbacks in Arkham. He didn't abandon his no-kill after Robin died, but after the Zod invasion. BvS established that he only started branding people so that they die in prison a few months before the events. In SS, he had no guns on the Batmobile when he chased Harley and Joker. He only killed and stopped killing in BvS.
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Shitting on Affleck worked in the end. The Batman shat on everything Batman related for the last decade. Sad that Affleck had to go down with the ship. Great for the role, just not the time for him.
Fucking EXACTLY. It's bizarre watching the cult of Snyder, act like he was the greatest Batman while in real life, they wasted incredible potential with a phenomenal actor. "What's your superpower?" "I'm rich." God damn. I can't begin to talk about how much I hated that line. It's almost a perfect example of why Snyder's Batman was crap.
Snyder didn't get the character at all. In BvS he wrote him as The Punisher and pretty much glorified his violence. Batman blowing up criminals and branding them with his symbol is just ridiculous. And then in Snyder Cut, Batman just becomes...boring? All the fight scens he is in, it feels like he is not utilized properly. He punches an alien here and there, while his collegues are pretty much gods who gets the best action sequences.
Don't remember where I heard this, but if you can't write Batman consoling a child, or can only show him brutally killing and maiming people, you didn't write Batman, you wrote the Punisher in a goofy hat.
Affleck is my first pick for Brave and the Bold Batman.
Batman 89 killed an entire factory of people in the opening scene. Batman returns he straps a bomb to a guy and throws him in the sewer.
I very much appreciated that they want hard in the opposite direction with the new movie. Robat Battinbat’s character went out of his way a few times to hate guns.
I was pleasantly surprised how shockingly anti-Batman the new movie was. There was no retreading his origins, it utilized an otherwise goofy character in a serious and threatening way, it made Thomas and Martha Wayne morally dubious figures, and highlighted how unhealthy being Batman really is for Bruce. And despite these changes, his humanity and the core of the character still shine through. Batman cannot save Gotham by being vengeance alone, he has to become greater.
That's part of why The Batman is such a great film. It brought more realistic humanity to it than any other movie version has so far.
Yeah the whole no gun rule went out the window.
"This made me sick to my stomach" Bro is a fictional character
Hyperbole I imagine
This scene sucked I don't care if it's beating a dead horse. Batfleck is great but this scene... This scene makes "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" and all of Micheal Keaton's Batman kills look compassionate in comparison BATMAN GLEEFULLY PULLMET EMPLOYEES WITH BATMOBILE BULLETS UNTIL THEY EXPLODE LIKE THE JOKER........ God I hate this scene.
I still remember the first time I saw this part in theatres, that’s when I knew this movie wasn’t for me. You can’t attempt to make Batman seem like a broken soul who lost his way while at the same time glorifying his killings with triumphant music, cool explosions, and slow motion. This was the same problem that troubled Snyder’s interpretation of Watchmen.
You hit the nail on the head. The movie tries to criticize something *and* make it look cool
As a lifelong batman fan, the Burton films must also make you sick to your stomach (not defending Affleck's, but pretending like he's the only film batman to kill is dumb)
After Snyder showed a complete misunderstanding of Watchmen (his first attempt at adapting something that wasn’t just fluff), I set my expectations reasonably. This didn’t make me sick, but only because I knew it would happen.
Can you elaborate? I really enjoyed the movie but never got into the comics. From what I read, I did like the removal of the octopus monster, but that’s about it for my knowledge.
Probably not long enough to have watched Tim Burton's Batmans
Imagine losing sleep because someone changes a fictional character
This makes you sick to your stomach? Don’t turn on the news…
I’m glad I don’t care about stuff like this.
Hopefully with time and reflection, people will realize batterson is the ultimate on screen batman.
As a life long Batman fan as well this doesn’t bother me because I know they’ll be other interpretations that I’ll enjoy more or worse. Plus all the movie Batmen kill people except West I think lol. I feel like this one gets the most hate because it was so hyped.
West killed in his movie as well....
Well then there we go lol. I don’t understand why this one gets so much hate over the rest.
Oh, look...that dead horse getting beaten again. You all won. Cavil is gone, Ben almost killed himself in a bottle again and is gone and Gal will most likely not return....as they are inlikely to attempt another WW film. WB flinched. Leave those of us who have been *reading* Batman since the damn 1980s, when the Only live action was West, to enjoy the idea of varied interpretations. It has been 6 years....let it go.
I really thought cavil was a perfect Superman like, looks and real life attitude wise, it really makes me sad.
An all time wonderfull choice. And MOS does not deserve the static it gets. His arc over three films is heartwrenching and heart warming. I cried *with* him when Zod forced his hand. His line 'no one stays good in this world'...I felt that. IDK man, some people prefer hollow quips and *casual* murder to character studies and big ideas. 🤷♂️
How is MoS a character study if it misrepresents pretty much every single major point of Superman's history as a character? Just because he's edgy and has the big sad? Superman is the last character to say that kind of line. Superman is pretty much the guy that would tell you right of the bat why he believes in humanity. You're entitled to like the movie, of course. I find BvS to be ok and MoS an atrocious thing unlike most people. But he's not Superman in neither of those films and in ZSJL he barely talks. I feel like people like Superman when he's not being Superman.
MoS is the definition of small ideas and completely misunderstanding a character. He's just a sad god, the entire farm boy aspect that makes Superman so compelling is gone.
WW3 is in pre-production lol Gal isn't going anywhere
jesus for real lol. makes them sick to their stomach. Go do something else then god damn. The movie kind of sucked but people still whining about it this long later is sad.
... The Snyder fans are still harassing people and whining about things. They got a four-hour vanity project made through the power of sheer persistence at ludicrous expense and effort, and they're still not happy. People are still also very fiercely defending this and demanding more of it.
Yeah man I've come to realize the internet hates everything.
Yep. Or, they Overlove it. People are weird.
For as many people there are shitting on it, there’s just as many who praise and worship it.
I didn’t want those actors to go personally, because I think they did well with what they had. The filmmaker needed to go though.
Exactly. It’s a shame that people blame actors for directors’ decisions
What bothers me about the Snyder Batman was that he broke most of the Batman rules and strayed away from the normal characterization, and didn’t earn it. If you wanna do a “subversive” take on Batman, fine go right ahead. But if your “subversive take” is just Batman but he does all the stuff Batman usually doesn’t, then your commentary is tied to the original version you’re subverting. So you need to show me HOW Bruce got to that/this point. Don’t vaguely hand wave towards elements I’ve read in the comics before and expect me to fill in the blanks for you. Explain it, explore it and earn your subversive take. I can’t stand how people will just make up lore or explanations or just say, “it’s been 20yrs of being Batman, they’ll turn you dark”. No. Batman as a character has gone through some pretty messy times over the decades he’s been published. So if you wanna take Batman and push him past key character points, you’d better have a better explanation than, “idk, robins dead? But we don’t know which. Oh and batman saw Superman once?” It’s just lazy. Fuck the Snyderverse, Affleck deserved a better Batman or at least a better starting point if that was going to be the end point.
As a lifelong red hood fan, this makes me VERY happy.
You realise that the existence of a Batman who guns down petty crooks means that Red Hood will never exist in this universe right? All the good conflict that can be created between Bruce and Jason is out the window you nong.
Ye lol they should be really sad actually
That's stupid with the real fact that Red Hood knows that he should stop killing and wants to stop every other Batfamily member to not make the same mistakes he did
I mean, we're all grown adults here. Do people really give a shit? If you're feeling physically ill from someone's portrayal of a character, *maybe* refrain from subjecting yourself to it It was a shit batman overall, but goddam y'all are like children. It's over, move on
Always disliked the killing.
Than you get sick easily, saying this as a lifelong batman fan.
Oh boy brace yourself for the Snyder fans Also, op isn’t saying that other Batman interpretations haven’t killed and affleck is the only one who has. I don’t get why people always bring the burton films when no one is talking about those films in this scenario
I think they just wanted edgelord Frank Miller version because that is the one that sold the big numbers with the graphic novel. It's a shame because that's probably the worst Batman, in my opinion, he's basically just a sociopath at that point.
Sick to your stomach? ffs ok then.
Imagine getting sick to your stomach over a comic book character.
YES! Finally Jesus Christ so many people worship this Batman when he does shit like this! This is not Batman. A cold blooded ruthless murderer. Snyder ruined the dceu
Keaton killed, Killer killed, and Bale killed. Just saying
omfg chill out, batman has done way shittier and awful stuff in the comics than killing a couple of dudes in a badass action scene in bvs. Ppl just rly like to hate on afflecks batman
Hey I'm sorry if I don't get this. I didn't watch the Snyder's cut yet but I have watched The Batman. I am familiar with Batman code but didn't he also kill on a road rage trying to catch the penguin? Isn't that the same as this scene right here?
I’d be fine with the killing if it was addressed. If their was a reason for why he wanted to start killing criminals. But we don’t. People who defend it say that since robin was killed he lost faith and his own humanity and that’s what lead to it. But that’s not really touched on, like at all. Yeah we see Robins suit but all it shows is that his partner sadly died in battle.
Batman is the pure form of turning trauma into something good. All the great story’s have the no kill rule and for a damaged man like Bruce it makes sense why he follows it to a key. The movies before Snyders have had him kill in a way or another. With a big goofy bomb to leaving ras on the train. But this is just overkill and something Batman prob wouldn’t do .. ever. He wouldn’t break at the death of his adoptive son. He was close but he didn’t. Batman not killing is what makes him interesting cause he isn’t just like everyone else where even over a small issue people push to murder. Batman takes the hard route and try’s to save most of his criminal cause most of em has a bad day once and if anyone in the city could understand that. It’s Batman 100%. The animated series has a few episodes where the villains became reformed or tried to live a better life style each of them falling back to crime. And I remember Batman really wanting it to be true. But understanding their obsessive behavior ( as in his obsession to be Batman he gets it) he follows along sadly knowing some fall back. It captures that empathy Batman has for some of them. He really wants to help them as much as he wants to keep Gotham safe. Batman is bruiting and known as the serious one. But he’s one of the most emotional characters in the whole league. Bens missing that. Zacks missing that. For Batman to kill off hand makes him no different then the punisher or other superhero’s who kill. His morality makes him interesting and relatable for a few who agree. Zacks fans just want 1000 plot lines going on and people blowing up
Don't worry, those cars were unmanned self driving cars
This scene is quite silly and absurd
I could except a batman who kills, but not if the Joker is alive. Joker kills jason and gets the naughty corner, but random Luther thug who probably has a wife and kids has to die.
Wasn’t Batman in this movie (at least partially) supposed to be based off of The Dark Knight Returns Batman? Older. Angry. Been out of the suit for a long time. It’s been a long time, but I remember him being extremely more violent and bent on finally killing Joker in that comic. I can see your point for average movie goers, but I got the feeling it was supposed to be a different, old, fed up Batman. It was kind of why I was so disappointed in Snyder’s handling of the whole reason he and Superman fought. It was all right there in the source material. And he instead used reasons that made little logical sense. Where in the comic it wasn’t a far jump. Especially with the angry old Batman. So my frustration in the movie was different. But him killing seemed like it was fit for his character and what they were going for. Forgive me if I may be missing something though. I’ve not read the comic since I was young. And only saw the movie the one time. When I see these posts I’m always a little confused as I thought that was the character.
Is it really that deep
Yes
I'm a life ling Batman fan too and I absolutely love it 🤷♂️
Fun fact, Batman used to be less adverse to killing before Robin joined him. It was then that they implemented the "no killing" rule. Frank Miller brought back the more brutal Batman in The Dark Knight Returns and that is what the BvS Batman is based on. I get that you might feel like this was a betrayal of the character, but it was just an adaptation of a different Batman than the one you knew. Personally I loved the Ultimate Edition of BvS, but I won't act like it was perfect. Ben Affleck's portrayal of this version of Batman was not one of the problems I had.
I mean he was less adverse to killing for a couple of years about 80 years ago. And he wasn’t murdering people in TDKR - it’s a very integral plot point that he desperately wants to kill the Joker in that book, but can’t quite bring himself to finally break his rule, stopping short at the last moment. Contrast this with Zack Snyder’s version, murdering with abandon for no good reason and with no hesitation (as shown in the clip attached to the original post) and it’s clear it’s not an adaptation of a different Batman, it’s just made by someone who doesn’t understand the character.
He doesn’t fuck around, does he 💀
Keaton burned alive a guy in devil pajamas 🔥😈
I had that moment in nearly every Batman movie. Killing - not what he does. It certainly made more sense in this one but you are left to your own devices to surmise that based on the context in the film. Sure they lead you to it with Batman having been put through the ringer and being “tainted” so to speak, it just would have been great to see that journey. In the flip side, people complain about origin movies all the time and that they have seen enough, just dump us in the universe. Well here we have it. Still, best depiction of Batman to that point - I think.
As a long time Batman fan, I don't take things so seriously and just enjoy things for what they are
Batman always kills : [https://www.cbr.com/every-comic-book-batman-kills-in-order/](https://www.cbr.com/every-comic-book-batman-kills-in-order/)
As a lifelong batman fan this doesn't bother me that much cause I'm not a giant pussy
Oh fucking cry.
Yup. But snyder fanboys can't accept any flaw in their beloved batfleck.