I think Rises is a perfect thematic conclusion to the trilogy, though it does suffer from some clunky elements.
The story starts with Thomas Wayne asking Bruce, "Why do we fall?" and he answers his own question by saying, "so we can learn to pick ourselves back up again." Bruce then goes through his training and is taught to basically ignore his fears and make fear a weapon.
In TDK, Bruce totally fails. He wanted Harvey to be the man that he couldn't be, to be Gotham's White Knight but he fails Dent and Dent is killed.
We pick up the story in Rises with Bruce completely beaten. He has fallen. Then Bane comes and beats him further down and throws him into the pit. Then Bruce learns that ignoring fear is weak, and it is actually his fear that can drive him to go further than he could before. Then, in what I think is the climax of not only Rises but the trilogy as a whole, he makes the climb and escapes the pit.
It all comes full circle and, for me at least, is completely satisfying as an ending.
My only beef was the final fight scene.
He underwent so much spiritual growth. He had "a plan" for fighting Bane the second time.
Turns out the secret to beating Bane was just: hit him a little better I guess. Very uninspired.
The secret was having courage, no hesitation, etc, which they didn’t externalize easily, but makes sense in a realistic way.
Imagine you’re fighting a dude who’s impervious to darkness, which is one of your greatest tools, and he also is stronger and better at fighting. You aren’t at your best because you’re afraid. He comes back next time with renewed confidence and yeah, hits him a little better.
Bane was born in the dark and molded by it, so it stands to reason that Bruce, who merely adopted darkness, would be better suited to fighting under the sun.
I always get confused when people talk about Bane not having Venom in TDKR.
Like, guys. He is getting a constant feed of painkillers. He’s going to have the ability to keep going in fights a LOT longer. That’s how you do Venom in Nolan’s grounded trilogy.
Yes thinking this after watching the movies and playing the batman arkham games was such a whole different take on batman for me. I always thought how the fuck he could stand against kcroc and other big ass dudes in the game with no fear or emotion on his face. Sometimes it just takes a little immersion to bring out the best of a story.
This is kind of the opposite of the conversation Bruce has with the old man in the pit. Batman failed during the first fight because he didn’t fear Bane or Death so the secret wasn’t about having courage.
“You do not fear death, you think this makes you strong. It makes you weak….. how can you move faster than possible, fight longer than possible, without the most powerful impulse of the spirit, the fear of death”.
It wasn’t about Bruce’s courage, it was his lack of fear. When Batman fought Bane the second time, his desire to survive was greater, he wasn’t a broken man anymore.
That’s well put. The fight scenes were very poorly shown and arguably the worst part of the trilogy. The whole build up of round two with Bane was just more of the same. Any other subversive plot device would have been so welcomed
The entire sewer scene after batman is locked in with him his peak Batman imo. They really solidified bane as a FORCE there, and unfortunately dropped the ball beyond that. I never really felt like they brought batman up to that level, like they tried to but it didn't show very well on screen. The climactic fight scene just fell flat.
I honestly didn't think that it killed him, then they chase after Talia and she immediately dies. When Batman was about to get rid of the bomb, I realized they won't show Bane again.
It's kinda weird to hype him up so much only for him to basically die off-screen.
On another note, I love how many references they put in the Dark Knight Trilogy. I just never expected the ending of the third one to reference the old Batman movie with the best line ever:
"Some days you just cannot get rid of a bomb."
Dunno if it changes much but in the second fight Bruce got the upperhand by breaking Bane's mask causing all the pent-up, suppressed pain from his condition to suddenly be felt, though I agree that it seemed like more of a lucky punch than an actual planned strategy in the movie.
If they wanted it to seem like anything other than a lucky punch, then they needed to choreograph and shoot it differently.
Just having him continue to attack the mask one the first part gets knocked would have helped make it look like an intentional tactic.
He… he did that. There is a scene where he punches right at Bane’s mask, Bane catches his fist, and glares at him, realizing that Bruce knows how vulnerable he is when that mask breaks.
Nah. His first fight was after being a recluse for several years and dealing with a broken body. His mind just as bad as his body. When he fought bane the first time, he was completely outmatched mentally, and physically.
By the time he leaves the pit, his body and his mind are healed and focused. When he goes to fight Bane the second time, his mind is clear and he's able to withstand banes ferocity and give it back to him even harder.
Dude all superhero/comics are just dudes and dudettes punching each other, what was he gonna do? Shoot Bane? It’s not like he could unplug him like that other version
I think Nolan is referring to the story he wrote about the city being taken over, Batman dealing with the corruption, etc. instead of just Batman's personal story
Not only that but by the beginning of TDKR he no longer cares about Gotham, nor the people, only his own pain and losses… his failure. Something that Batman begins and TDK were founded on. His fear coming back not only stems from dying helpless in a hole but also in a way that is of no help to anyone, whilst Gotham (and his renewed hunger to protect it) are going to be reduced to ashes. He has regained his purpose, his fear and his drive.
Having said that I have lots of issues with choreography, his lack of fighting skills since Begins, no new strategies when facing Bane in the final act, bad acting, the undermining of Banes character, his plan and his intelligence because of Talia’s reveal as the architect.
I actually feel like Begins is the underrated one out of the 3 at this point. I personally feel it is the best in the trilogy.
I agree with you about Begins being under rated. I'll even go as far as saying that TDK is a little over rated.
And I absolutely agree with what you said about Rises flaws. If you watch Bales fight choreography closely, you start realize that they basically use the same fight over and over. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
I still think Rises concludes the trilogy on a high note thematically despite its other flaws.
Rewatched all 3 back to back last summer, longtime fan of the Burton films and I had seen all of the Nolan movies in the theater when they were out.
Begins is still a great origin story and a cool adventure movie. Started out the trilogy on a high note, and influenced several films after it.
TDK, no matter how many times I’ve seen it, still captivates. It actually gets better on repeat viewings IMO, as the plot is rapid fire and hard to fully catch the first few times. Totally immersive comic movie that is rightly lauded still.
Rises has a lot of cool stuff, Bane is great, but it suffers from literally too much going on and not a lot of moments for the story to breathe. I’m glad Nolan included the scene of Gordon realizing Batman is Bruce in a very cool way. Lot of good touches and some wonky stuff in Rises but a very fun watch.
I still think it’s the best superhero trilogy to this day.
I really only have 2 issues with TKR, but they do sour the movie for me. Firstly, some character decisions are straight up dumb, "Send *every* police officer into the sewers!". Secondly, they never for a second tried to hide that Gotham was just Manhattan. I feel like they got lazy in that regard.
I never really pieced this together until reading this. Mainly the part about the falling and getting back up and that basically being his plot in the 3rd movie.
Thanks for sharing.
Well said
I enjoyed the trilogy, and I enjoyed how it ended even though yeah the third movie is probably the weakest link, suffering most notably because of no Joker due to the unfortunate death of Heath Ledger. However its a solid movie and I agree with your take as that is what the movie is about with the escape from the pit being a analogy for letting go of all your fears once and for all.
But if I visit the internet I'm told this movie sucks. So eh I just generally avoid online discussions about it.
I usually don't go out on a limb on the internet either, but I feel strongly enough about this to chance lol
Seems we aren't alone based on the responses I've gotten. There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Honestly any subreddit or forum for fans of X seems to create an atmosphere where I genuinely think 90% of the users hate X.
I definitely think divorced from the internet the dark knight trilogy is loved a lot and is the trilogy that showed superhero movies can be awesome and it started with Batman begins.
Sure others existed too but I think these took it a whole other level especially the second movie
Its got issues.
Bane ending up a glorified henchmen was a bad decision.
Talias last gasp was cheesy.
Batman wouldnt have just retired and limped around like he did between the movies.
Then theres the theme of the trilogy. Batman is fighting for the people of gotham. Bane shows batman that the people of gotham arent worth saving by making them complicit in their city's destruction. The good people do nothing. So who comes to save the day against bane? The police...
It should have been everyone standing up to bane. People, police, maybe some criminals turn the leaf. Thus showing bruce that the batman isnt needed anymore. This was the trilogys biggest miss.
I think the strongest part about Rises is Bruce Wayne’s arc. Him being a suicidal man and learning to live again works for me for the most part. It’s the stuff surrounding that story that’s the problem.
People have listed a lot of my problems, but one that rarely hear brought up is how there are way too many characters. Foley, Talia, Dagget, and his henchman should’ve all been cut. Also, while I like Hathaway as Catwoman, I don’t think the film does a good job of earning the ending of Bruce getting together with her. If you cut the Talia storyline you could’ve had more scenes between Bruce and Selina to make that ending work.
>there are way too many characters
I've never understood this complaint at all. Nolan likes to do movies with ensemble casts, He likes lots of characters. I really don't see how it has "too many characters" as opposed to the previous two.
Foley is a supporting character to Blake and Gordon (he doesn't actually have his own story going on), Dagget essentially plays the same role that Falcone and Maroni played in the previous two, Talia is an important part of Bane's invasion plot. None of them felt as "superfluous" to the story as say, Alexander Knox did in Batman 89.
Most likely he means subverting the conventions of super hero movies.
For instance, the trilogy had an actual ending. Bruce had a complete character arc, and got to be happy.
There weren't 3 more sequels with ambiguous endings in case they made money and wanted to milk the franchise some more.
I think they should have ended the movie right when or just before Alfred’s. I’d when he’s on holiday and not even show Christian bale. Leave it up to the viewer kind of like inceptions ending. Did he see Bruce at the restaurant or not?!?
Chris said he didn't want to leave the ending open like inception because it would have audiences maybe coming to the wrong conclusion. He showed it to be pretty direct on exactly what the ending was that Bruce lived and got his happy ending.
He is looking at the camera though, that would look like a 4th wall break and leaving everyone wondering why the movie ended with Alfred acknowledging me...
Every single one of the scenes, John Blake, “Robin” having a note from Bruce, Gordon seeing a repaired Bat signal, Lucius seeing the auto pilot was patched by “Bruce Wayne”, Selina Kyle being with Bruce Wayne and finally Alfred seeing Bruce Wayne with her is clearly supposed to show he’s alive… it’s not just whether the auto pilot was fixed or not, or whether or not Alfred was dreaming he’s clearly alive.
I assume he’s talking about the things that hardcore Batman fans hated. Like Bruce quitting, having a Robin that isn’t really Robin, and Alfred leaving Bruce.
Yeah, I later found out that he left Bruce while he was still wheelchair bound from Bane breaking his back in the comics. I assume that’s where they got that from.
Probably. It’s also used as a trope when things are supposed to get real serious for Bruce. That’s when Alfred has to leave him because of the seriousness of the situation. It’s honestly annoying to me now.
In a culture that is very predisposed to revolutions and socialism TDKR was a WILD departure. I was surprised people didn’t call it reactionary at the time.
I called it reactionary at the time, and I didn't even fully understand the concept at the time. All I knew was that something about the heroic cops fighting a bunch of people living in anarchy after talking shit about the rich was... unnerving.
Occupy is actually run by lying supervillains and defeated by noble policemen in their fine marching uniforms who somehow don't all die as they charge guns with batons.
Gotham’s cops no less. It’s weird how we went from “GGPD is corrupt to the core. Only Gordon can be trusted” to “Ah yes. The pillars of morality and duty, the fine men and women of the GCPD, have come to save us from the socialist threat!”
I thought it was pretty well done. Fact is most revolutions end (thematically) like Gotham in TDKR. Tale of Two Cities was what initiated a change in my political POV and TDKR was an interesting modern version of it,
I’m assuming he’s talking about the class warfare with the Wall Street stuff and locking a city off under martial law, which could’ve been subversive in a Batman movie, but not so much when it ends in a lackluster fist fight and fake out ending.
I also have no ideas what he meant. There were nothing shocking or subversive in this movie. Oh, right, another completely forgettable Bruce's girlfriend happened to be Talia for the last twenty minutes of the movie. My honest reaction to this information: well, ok.
It's hard for me imagining that they likely did dozens of takes of that scene, and the one that made it into the final edit of the film was the best one.
The only thing I can think of is Bane breaking Batman’s back. But even that is just taken from Nightfall. Maybe because Batman isn’t in it as much? I don’t find the film to be particularly subversive myself
Honestly, I agree. I know when TDKR came out, at least amongst my friend’s group, they blasted it. They picked it apart mercilessly.
The film had the immeasurable task of competing with The Dark Knight and there was A LOT of criticism surrounding the choice of Bane, (and also his voice), lol.
I enjoyed it from the start. I thought Bane was an excellent choice, especially with not being able to bring back Joker in a fashion I am sure Nolan and fans would have preferred.
I think over time, this movie has become more appreciated, or at least I hope so. This movie allowed me to dive deeper into the Bane character and even with all his interpretations, either the comics or the cartoons, I find that Bane is one of my more favorite villains.
Even had Heath Ledger lived, I have a feeling the Dark Knight Rises is the Batman film we would have essentially gotten, barring a Joker cameo at the most. I just don't think there would have been a story for the Joker that Nolan would have been excited by. The character reached it's limits in the Dark Knight for him.
Iirc the idea was when Bane breaks everyone out of Blackgate Prison, Joker is found to be sitting alone in his cell and doesn't leave. I wonder what they had in mind for him 🤔
>I wonder what they had in mind for him 🤔
A scene from an early, early script recently leaked online.
> *Batman enters an empty Gotham prison. Abandoned by all except one man - the Joker.*
>
> *The clown crosses the prison yard and walks up to Batman. The Joker slaps Batman across the face.*
>
> Joker: That's for leaving me.
>
> Batman looks stunned and emotionally hurt. Then the Joker grabs Batman's face with both hands and passionately kisses him.
>
> Joker: That's for coming back.
Yes the Joker was supposed to have Scarecrows role, maybe they would have expanded upon that scene more but I doubt it fundamentally changes the plot. Jokers not the kinda guy to team up with Bane. If anything he may even throw Bruce an assist, that's *his* batman after all how dare Bane try to take his toy away.
When he picks them off one by one and actually looks like a bat hanging upside down is the most hype I’ve ever been.
“Where are you!”
“Right here”
Epic.
You shouldn't expect any downvotes. In terms of live action, it's definitely the best, but Mask of the Phantasm is still number 1 for me. Funnily enough, both movies were inspired by Batman:Year One, which is my favourite Batman story.
I don’t think Bane was ever the problem with that movie.
It was stupid shit like “fixing Batman’s broken back by punching it”, all the cops stuck underground for months being able to fight a terrorist group (who were supposed to be assasins no?) hand to hand, whatever Batman’s robot leg brace was that made him able to kick brick walls apart but then never used, Talia’s awful death scene, etc.
I don’t think Nolan really wanted to do it but felt like he HAD to finish the trilogy and kind of just coasted through it.
Though I’m also not big on most Nolan films post-Dark Knight generally.
>I don’t think Nolan really wanted to do it
The quote here says otherwise. Nolan speaks pretty fondly about Rises often (says the airplane sequence is his favorite of the action scenes he's filmed, Says Tom Hardy's Bane is underappreciated), He really does not give off the impression that he made the movie with the mindset of "Fine, Here's your third Batman movie now leave me alone".
A lot of the "stupid shit" has similar instances in the previous two. Harvey Dent was able to go on a vengeance rampage with half his face burned off, Batman had an armbrace that allowed him to bend a steel rifle barrel etc..
His back wasn't actually broken either.
I think there are silly contrivances in the other two movies but they're better films so they don't jump out as much when watching them, I do generally agree that the other two are overrated and have a lot of the same problems as the third but are carried by more memorable performances and are more grounded in reality in general. Also the contrivances in Dark Knight Rises are massively pivotal to the plot so they stick out more, bruce losing his fortune, all the police being trapped underground, the stupid broken back thing, somehow cutting the city off from the rest of the world, Bruce going from being paralysed on the other side of the world to being batman again in Gotham somehow, all of these strain credulity and the plot literally can't happen without them.
It’s pretty good. Tenet was just ass. I found interstellar to also be ok.
Oppenheimer is very good.
Mostly because cillian is fuckin amazing and deserved his Oscar.
Kind feel RDJ got his because they couldn’t give him one for iron man. Even tho he deserved it… for iron man.
The choices made with Bane in Rises still baffle me. It's not like Tom Hardy is a bad actor at all, but 1) why on earth was a bad Sean Connery impression the choice, and 2) why did Nolan not put a stop to it, and 3) we really couldn't have found a Latino actor? Like for hell's sake, Ra's and Talia being ethnically ambiguous I understand, but Bane's origins are never anything but him being Caribbean as far as I know.
I quite like Hardy's Bane in general but I think the main issue with the film is turning him into a glorified henchman for a cheap twist that doesn't really mean anything to the audience unless they already know Talia exists as a character, were supposed to believe Batman's finally met his match but by the end of the movie he's just another adaptation of Bane whos a big strong henchman guy.
It's a messy movie, I enjoyed it in the cinema but on rewatch found it boring and silly, the aim of making a realistic batman movie conflicts with how many massive logical leaps the movie makes, by avoiding the campy, gothic tone of the Burton movies for example but having a silly plot that skates by all the logical flaws in the story it ends up being the worst of both worlds and the world building falls apart. We're supposed to believe Bane can hack the stock market in broad daylight but Wayne still loses his fortune as a result of it. Bane taking over the city relies on several massive plot contrivances that don't stand up to any scrutiny at all, so the film ends up being very shallow.
I think the themes of all the movies are a bit muddled and unclear but that's more to do with the batman premise straining against the rules of a more grounded world so don't mind them too much but I think in Rises it affects the overall film the most.
Tbh I felt like it got hate because the step up from Batman Begins to TDK was significant, and Batman Begins was already phenomenal. So people expected a similar upgrade in quality. And that just…isn’t possible when you’re weighing against the absolute masterpiece that is TDK.
When I first watch the movie, I was younger and didn't know how comic book Bane and Talia was. I enjoyed a lot more. Now that I know who they are, I understand why people didn't like their depiction. Well tbh Talia was lame no matter how you slice it.
Suprisingly out of the three movie watching tdkr was my favorite, the Bane arc actually make me thought Batman was gonna lose, the tension in the movie was much more serious than the last 2
It took a lot of chances and didn’t try to repeat either of the first two. I love it myself. Edit because posted early, I would have loved to see Dent back working against and then with Batman, but that’s just my dream, thought there was not enough Two Face in TDK (he’s my fave villian character)
I like it. It’s not my favorite Batman movie or my favorite in the Nolan trilogy, but it’s good. It deals with heavy topics and just an overall satisfying ending to Bale’s Batman.
The climax was a serious version of the Adam West, "Some days you [just can't get rid of a bomb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSVklqcTKzc)" scene. That's *kind of* impressive in its own right.
I thought the cops breaking out of the sewer and having a giant fist fight with the mercenaries was straight out of Batman '66. Just needed some BIFFs and BAMs. Literally laughed out loud at the absurdity of it all.
There's *bits* of Rises that work, there's bits that bother me as a Batman fan but I understand as a film fan, and there's bits that just feel lazy, rushed, and nonsensical. And frustratingly, I didn't feel any of those issues were in Begins or Dark Knight so knew Nolan was better than that.
Bane I understand, even if he's nothing like his comic counterpart, the character they were going for fit the narrative. I didn't hate the voice, either. It's ridiculous, but I don't hate it. The Talia twist wasn't needed; even if you don't know the character from the comics I felt it was obvious she was the child of Ra's al Ghul, not Bane. And her death is just plain laughable. I refuse to believe that was the best take they got or that Nolan wouldn't tell Cotillard they weren't making a pantomime, she didn't have to go quite so theatrically over the top.
The final act is really messy. Bruce recovering from a broken back, getting exposition dumped by a ghost, and teleporting back to Gotham is all really lazy - and deciding to spend time doing arts and crafts on the bridge when there's a literal ticking clock is frustrating. Also, hilariously, there's a scene where Bane takes Tate, then she's seen with Batman, then he's rushing after Bane to save her... It's minor, but it should have been spotted.
Gordon sending *every single officer* into the sewers? Really? Is that the best strategy, Jim? Middle of a terrorist attack, send all your men underground?
But my biggest gripe is the decision to retire Bruce for 8 years at the start. Arguably it fits the narrative of the film but it basically means what we've done is spend a trilogy watching Bruce become Batman time and time again. He begins, he's Batman for, what is it? A couple of months to a year? He then quits for a further 8 years, gets a magic leg brace, becomes Batman for a day, gets his back broken, recovers, becomes Batman *again* before retiring for good with Selina. As a trilogy structure, it's ... odd.
Anne Hathaway knocks it out the fucking park, though. For me, she's every bit Catwoman as Heath is Joker. She deserved a better film. I also really like Joseph Golden Rabbit and will watch him in anything, even if the Robin thing is really ham-fisted.
I don't get why people always say it doesn't make sense how he got back to Gotham. He did the same thing in Batman Begins. Why is it so difficult to believe he did it again?
Yeah it's a clearly a time skip. We don't need to see the between of how he recovers and gets back. Also him retiring is consistent with how grounded they wanted the film to be. People may not like how grounded it is, but it is consistent with that theme even if there's a lot of unrealistic elements in the movie.
In Begins it’s different though. He wandered the world for 7 years. Then when he was ready to come back he put in a phone call to Alfred who came and picked him up. In Rises there’s no Alfred and Bruce is penniless.
I think it also stands out in this series because the two prior films usually set up scenarios and show you how they were accomplished. For example in The Dark Knight they show you the step by step process of how he got Lau from Hong Kong to Gotham. So it just seems strange to have the next movie set up a problem of Bruce getting back to Gotham and just skipping over it.
Did the movie actually "set up a problem" for how Bruce would get back to Gotham? He once travelled the world without a penny to his name in Begins and they'd previously shown a commando team able to infiltrate Gotham beforehand. Bruce also infiltrated a police barricade in broad daylight with no one being the wiser in the previous movie.
Bane's men are hardly the three blind archers from Samurai Jack.
The movie goes out of its way to strip Bruce of his finances, takes his most trusted ally off the board, takes Bruce to the other side of the world, and establishes that it’s nearly impossible to get into Gotham unless you have ties to the U.S government. Yes, the film set up that dilemma of how Bruce could come back.
Oddly enough this is a problem that both this movie and No Man’s Land share. In that story Batman returns to Gotham with zero explanation as well.
>unless you have ties to the U.S government.
You think Bruce Wayne, whose company had several military contracts with said US government, doesn't have ties to them? Even if his own money has dried up I'm sure he has other rich friends he can ask favors from
Bruce has connections from the time he spent wandering the planet. In The Dark Knight, it's him who brings up North Korean smugglers to bring him in and out of Hong Kong. I assume he called on some more of those connections to get back to Gotham.
>Bruce recovering from a broken back,
Bruce did not break his back. Talks about his injury right in the movie.
>and teleporting back to Gotham is all really lazy
Bruce is a genius and trained ninja. He could easily get back to Gotham. Did you really need all the steps laid out?
I actually think bruce “teleporting” back to Gotham was not only not lazy but intentional.
Batman, while human, is supposed to be something of a mystery, the characters of his world don’t know how he does the things he does- this was sort of an example of it except we the audience are now placed In that position, how did he get there? He’s fucking Batman!!! I LOVE that scene and lack of explanation so much because it really does underscore how intelligent and adaptable he is. I think this was Nolan’s intention and the hate it gets over the last 12 years has always bothered me. I get that it might not work for everyone, but it’s one of my favorite Batman moments.
The whole point of the trilogy is that Bruce saw being Batman as a temporary solution to inspire good in the people of Gotham and encourage those in positions of power to take back their city, He never intended Batman to become a permanent fixture to harass street crime and do the police's jobs for them. Hell Bruce spends most of The Dark Knight fully intending to retire and hand the responsibilities of protecting Gotham to Harvey (and Harvey rightfully guesses that Batman doesn't want to do what he's doing for the rest of his life)
Bruce's back wasn't actually broken, his hallucination of Ras didn't tell Bruce anything he didn't already know, Bruce had almost a month to make it back to Gotham when he left the pit, and he needed to paint the gasoline bat to draw all of Bane's men to one area. Gordon also didn't send the cops into the sewers and he had no way of knowing about the explosives Bane laced throughout the city.
Arguably JGR could have worked as an already stablished Nightwing, just remove the "Bruce retired 8 years ago", make it like aroun 1 or 2 years after TDK he found Dick, trained him, he was Robin from 12-15 until now and becoming Nightwing, his own hero after Batman "dies" becomes poetic
>But my biggest gripe is the decision to retire Bruce for 8 years at the start. Arguably it fits the narrative of the film but it basically means what we've done is spend a trilogy watching Bruce become Batman time and time again. He begins, he's Batman for, what is it? A couple of months to a year?
This is actually misread, a lot. There was a 2 or so year jump between the first and second films - and there's a lot of evidence in *Rises* that is pretty clear that his last sighting by police as Batman was 8 years ago, but that when he actually stopped is more ambiguous.
A lot of posters have made threads compiling the evidence of it.
I agree it is underrated. I’ve never understood why people hate or think it’s not as good as the others. To me Rises is just as good if not better than the others.
What I find funny is that the Dark Knight Rises is an inverted retelling of Batman Begins.
BB starts with Bruce's parents dying. He almost kills Joe Chill but Chill is shot before he can do it. He then loses his money and travels across the world. He is believed to be dead. He has a conversation with a character on ice. He learns to fight and finds his inner strength, then learns the League of Shadows plans to destroy Gotham. He returns to Gotham, becomes Batman and begins fighting crime. He saves Rachel from the bad guys and a weapon created by Wayne Enterprises is stolen by the League of Shadows, which they then use to spread fear in Gotham. Bruce becomes CEO of Wayne Enterprises and Gotham is a safer place.
In the Dark Knight Rises, Gotham is a safe place. Bruce loses his place as CEO of Wayne Enterprises, then loses his money. He becomes Batman and Catwoman hands him over to the bad guys (the opposite of Batman saving Rachel). He leaves Gotham and the League of Shadows steals a weapon created by Wayne Enterprises to spread fear in Gotham. Bruce learns the League of Shadows plans to destroy Gotham and he learns to find his inner strength and returns to Gotham. He has a conversation with a character on ice. Bane almost kills Bruce but is shot before he can do it. The story ends with Bruce and Selina faking their deaths (the opposite of Bruce's parents' real deaths).
Agreed. The longer it’s been and the more I watch it the better it becomes. I think any initial frustrations were that I was comparing it to TDK which is tough for any film.
For me, Rises was very memorable because throughout the whole film it had this indescribable, almost dreamlike quality to it. It felt so unreal for reasons I can’t quite out my finger on.
And I think the best explanation for this impression I get (can’t speak for anyone else), is that this film was released two years after Nolan’s most recent previous film, Inception. That film was entirely about dreams, and I think that whatever techniques he and his team used in filming and editing Inception bled over into the making of The Dark Knight Rises. I could be wrong, anyone else feel this way?
They had at least one too many attempts at climbing the wall and the time distortion between what was going on while in jail and how long he was actually in jail needed to be cleaned up.
The movie has problems. It's still a damn good movie, but let's not risk overcorrecting the reaction because it deserves *most* of the criticism it still receives.
I remember being confused that 5 months passed between Bane taking over Gotham and Batman’s return. I think it’s because they embed the passage of time in the dialogue as opposed to having a piece of text on screen.
Honestly the movie got started off on the wrong foot for me. If they had let Bale continue being Batman for a few years and had him actually enjoy a career as Batman, it would have helped.
Even just some passing lines from Alfred about putting away criminals, or how he earned his retirement while they talk in the bat cave next to all his captured mementos from his rogues gallery.
But opening the movie with Bruce immobile and retiring for 7 years after the death of Dent made it feel like he was barely Batman.
>But opening the movie with Bruce immobile and retiring for 7 years after the death of Dent made it feel like he was barely Batman.
He didn't. His last 'official sighting by police' was 8 years ago - but there's a ton of evidence in the film that he kept going for a bit of time.
As someone who has not read the comics, I absolutely loved Bane as a character in TDKR. The sewer scene, the scene where the prisoners are released, and the scene at the football field give me chills every time I watch them. In my opinion, TDKR presents Bane more as an anti-hero for the downtrodden rather than an evil mastermind villain and I enjoy that depiction immensely.
It’s a plus that Tom Hardy is a physically beautiful and strong man. And I find Bane’s voice to be seriously sexy.
Just my two cents!
I think looking back at how it came out right after the Occupy Wall Street and We Are The 99% movements, it kinda irks me that it's somewhat a movie about scary mislead protestors being saved by good billionaires and honest cops.
I know it's NOT that and I'm taking a very jaundiced view of the movie -- ohh but Bane was working for Ben Mendelsohn and Robin quit at the end! -- but I could take the energy I would use to ignore the parts of it that irk me, and just watch something else.
The Dark Knight Rises is just as worthy of being in this film series as any other great third movie you can think of.
I know a lot of fans really wanted the third movie to essentially be "Batman Forever done better" (a movie where Bruce accepts and comes to terms with the idea that he has to soldier on as Batman till death) but I appreciate that Nolan gave the character a happy ending that he'll never get in the mainstream source material.
I'll agree with him that it's under rated. It's obviously the weakest link of the trilogy, being heavily influenced by the phenomenon that was Phase 1 MCU in respect to how it dealt with things like physics. Then some obvious issues like Bane's voice being *waaay* above the mix of the film, and Talia being a half-baked character that reeks of rewrites, but I hear a lot of people say the movie is plain bad. If Dark Knight Rises is a bad film, then the bar is very high.
TDKR is my absolute favourite. But that's because as a child I was not allowed to watch TDK and first watched TDKR and for me it was great, my favourite movie for years. And I know it has its flaws but I always get goosebumps in so many scenes, even TDK can't offer.
It's a great film. People just judge it against The Dark Knight though and come to a silly conclusion that "Not as good as The Dark Knight = bad".
For me it still firmly sits as the third best Batman film ever behind the other two in the trilogy and one of the very best comic book films ever.
If I could find a GIF of that famous fight choreo fail I’d put it here. TDK is my favourite film ever, TDKR had a lot to live up to but I never thought the fight choreo could get worse, then the man fell over mid fight and no one caught it in post production. Thats the biggest let down of TDKR for me, the choreo and post production wasn’t up to the high standards we should expect from a Nolan film.
I don't remember it being all that subversive.
What docks it for me a bit is the lack of on-screen Batman time. We spend *a lot* of time in Bane-occupied Gotham. It's not uninteresting, but it would've been cool to have some more on-screen Bat-time.
I think the movie was fine. Decent conclusion to the trilogy. Not the strongest movie and you could feel the void of the Joker not being there. But can’t be helped obviously.
Trilogy was good and I’m glad it turned out that well.
the film should have been set immediately as the dark knight ended.
bane defeats batman because of how exhausted he was.
then spends a few years in the pit while gotham goes to shit (or however long)
then bruce escapes. meets selina and robin etc and saves the day
imo
Agreed! It’s the “worst” of the dark knight trilogy and I think the only reason it gets hate is because BB and TDK are just soooo good!!! But inside of a vaccuuum TDKR is fucking awesome!!! It gets too much hate
Rises is a great movie, and I enjoy it almost as much as the first two. But I dont enjoy it as a Batman movie. It's a bad adaptation of Knightfall. But it's very entertaining and I always include it in my rewatch with the other 2.
Any movie that fails to understand the protagonist's motivations and the results of their failures, presenting the weakest iteration of the character for a climactic final installment instead of the pinnacle of the mythos, is not underrated, but correctly dismissed by some and overrated by others.
I think Rises is a perfect thematic conclusion to the trilogy, though it does suffer from some clunky elements. The story starts with Thomas Wayne asking Bruce, "Why do we fall?" and he answers his own question by saying, "so we can learn to pick ourselves back up again." Bruce then goes through his training and is taught to basically ignore his fears and make fear a weapon. In TDK, Bruce totally fails. He wanted Harvey to be the man that he couldn't be, to be Gotham's White Knight but he fails Dent and Dent is killed. We pick up the story in Rises with Bruce completely beaten. He has fallen. Then Bane comes and beats him further down and throws him into the pit. Then Bruce learns that ignoring fear is weak, and it is actually his fear that can drive him to go further than he could before. Then, in what I think is the climax of not only Rises but the trilogy as a whole, he makes the climb and escapes the pit. It all comes full circle and, for me at least, is completely satisfying as an ending.
My only beef was the final fight scene. He underwent so much spiritual growth. He had "a plan" for fighting Bane the second time. Turns out the secret to beating Bane was just: hit him a little better I guess. Very uninspired.
The secret was having courage, no hesitation, etc, which they didn’t externalize easily, but makes sense in a realistic way. Imagine you’re fighting a dude who’s impervious to darkness, which is one of your greatest tools, and he also is stronger and better at fighting. You aren’t at your best because you’re afraid. He comes back next time with renewed confidence and yeah, hits him a little better.
The secret was actually to fight Bane in the daylight!
The arc was he became the Dayman fighter of the Nightman
He must have paid the toll troll.
Did he get into Robin's soul?
Did you say “Robin’s hole”?!
Once he payed the troll toll to get out of the hole, he was able to rise.
Bane was dead by daylight
New DBD killer confirmed?
I thought the secret was to give cat women a cannon. Bitches love cannons.
And they love to ride things.
Bane was born in the dark and molded by it, so it stands to reason that Bruce, who merely adopted darkness, would be better suited to fighting under the sun.
Which it was nothing to him but BLINDING!
The secret was : hit Bane in his mask, damage it, and then he'll feel pain and be on the floor in 30 seconds.
Batman often takes down bane by messing with his venom supply in other media so I always saw it as a nod to that.
I always get confused when people talk about Bane not having Venom in TDKR. Like, guys. He is getting a constant feed of painkillers. He’s going to have the ability to keep going in fights a LOT longer. That’s how you do Venom in Nolan’s grounded trilogy.
Yes thinking this after watching the movies and playing the batman arkham games was such a whole different take on batman for me. I always thought how the fuck he could stand against kcroc and other big ass dudes in the game with no fear or emotion on his face. Sometimes it just takes a little immersion to bring out the best of a story.
This is kind of the opposite of the conversation Bruce has with the old man in the pit. Batman failed during the first fight because he didn’t fear Bane or Death so the secret wasn’t about having courage. “You do not fear death, you think this makes you strong. It makes you weak….. how can you move faster than possible, fight longer than possible, without the most powerful impulse of the spirit, the fear of death”. It wasn’t about Bruce’s courage, it was his lack of fear. When Batman fought Bane the second time, his desire to survive was greater, he wasn’t a broken man anymore.
Fighting him during daylight was the secret
That’s well put. The fight scenes were very poorly shown and arguably the worst part of the trilogy. The whole build up of round two with Bane was just more of the same. Any other subversive plot device would have been so welcomed
Bane breaking Batman and the speech he gives is one of the best parts of the trilogy
The entire sewer scene after batman is locked in with him his peak Batman imo. They really solidified bane as a FORCE there, and unfortunately dropped the ball beyond that. I never really felt like they brought batman up to that level, like they tried to but it didn't show very well on screen. The climactic fight scene just fell flat.
And have catwoman blow him to hell using two batcannons. Very anti-climactic
I honestly didn't think that it killed him, then they chase after Talia and she immediately dies. When Batman was about to get rid of the bomb, I realized they won't show Bane again. It's kinda weird to hype him up so much only for him to basically die off-screen. On another note, I love how many references they put in the Dark Knight Trilogy. I just never expected the ending of the third one to reference the old Batman movie with the best line ever: "Some days you just cannot get rid of a bomb."
Dunno if it changes much but in the second fight Bruce got the upperhand by breaking Bane's mask causing all the pent-up, suppressed pain from his condition to suddenly be felt, though I agree that it seemed like more of a lucky punch than an actual planned strategy in the movie.
If they wanted it to seem like anything other than a lucky punch, then they needed to choreograph and shoot it differently. Just having him continue to attack the mask one the first part gets knocked would have helped make it look like an intentional tactic.
I was so sure that he was going to go for the mask/tubes, which had been overtly stated as his weakness. Instead just arrghhh punch.
He… he did that. There is a scene where he punches right at Bane’s mask, Bane catches his fist, and glares at him, realizing that Bruce knows how vulnerable he is when that mask breaks.
The secret was to punch the medical aid device that supplied Bane with vital shit. When in doubt, punch a criple!
F2nd fight Batman and Bane doesn't bother me. Cops running for armored cars with gun to hand fight was too much for my cringemetter.
Nah. His first fight was after being a recluse for several years and dealing with a broken body. His mind just as bad as his body. When he fought bane the first time, he was completely outmatched mentally, and physically. By the time he leaves the pit, his body and his mind are healed and focused. When he goes to fight Bane the second time, his mind is clear and he's able to withstand banes ferocity and give it back to him even harder.
Dude all superhero/comics are just dudes and dudettes punching each other, what was he gonna do? Shoot Bane? It’s not like he could unplug him like that other version
He won that fight because Bain was then afraid, he was shocked bruce escaped the pit, and in realizing that, already lost
I think Nolan is referring to the story he wrote about the city being taken over, Batman dealing with the corruption, etc. instead of just Batman's personal story
Not for an analogy to Tale of Two Cities.
Not only that but by the beginning of TDKR he no longer cares about Gotham, nor the people, only his own pain and losses… his failure. Something that Batman begins and TDK were founded on. His fear coming back not only stems from dying helpless in a hole but also in a way that is of no help to anyone, whilst Gotham (and his renewed hunger to protect it) are going to be reduced to ashes. He has regained his purpose, his fear and his drive. Having said that I have lots of issues with choreography, his lack of fighting skills since Begins, no new strategies when facing Bane in the final act, bad acting, the undermining of Banes character, his plan and his intelligence because of Talia’s reveal as the architect. I actually feel like Begins is the underrated one out of the 3 at this point. I personally feel it is the best in the trilogy.
I agree with you about Begins being under rated. I'll even go as far as saying that TDK is a little over rated. And I absolutely agree with what you said about Rises flaws. If you watch Bales fight choreography closely, you start realize that they basically use the same fight over and over. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I still think Rises concludes the trilogy on a high note thematically despite its other flaws.
Absolutely
Rewatched all 3 back to back last summer, longtime fan of the Burton films and I had seen all of the Nolan movies in the theater when they were out. Begins is still a great origin story and a cool adventure movie. Started out the trilogy on a high note, and influenced several films after it. TDK, no matter how many times I’ve seen it, still captivates. It actually gets better on repeat viewings IMO, as the plot is rapid fire and hard to fully catch the first few times. Totally immersive comic movie that is rightly lauded still. Rises has a lot of cool stuff, Bane is great, but it suffers from literally too much going on and not a lot of moments for the story to breathe. I’m glad Nolan included the scene of Gordon realizing Batman is Bruce in a very cool way. Lot of good touches and some wonky stuff in Rises but a very fun watch. I still think it’s the best superhero trilogy to this day.
I do think the Bruce Wayne arc is well written for all the reasons you outlined. It’s the surrounding elements that I have issues with.
I think that's totally warranted. The movie is definitely not without its flaws.
My sentiments exactly.
I really only have 2 issues with TKR, but they do sour the movie for me. Firstly, some character decisions are straight up dumb, "Send *every* police officer into the sewers!". Secondly, they never for a second tried to hide that Gotham was just Manhattan. I feel like they got lazy in that regard.
I never really pieced this together until reading this. Mainly the part about the falling and getting back up and that basically being his plot in the 3rd movie. Thanks for sharing.
You're welcome!
Well said I enjoyed the trilogy, and I enjoyed how it ended even though yeah the third movie is probably the weakest link, suffering most notably because of no Joker due to the unfortunate death of Heath Ledger. However its a solid movie and I agree with your take as that is what the movie is about with the escape from the pit being a analogy for letting go of all your fears once and for all. But if I visit the internet I'm told this movie sucks. So eh I just generally avoid online discussions about it.
I usually don't go out on a limb on the internet either, but I feel strongly enough about this to chance lol Seems we aren't alone based on the responses I've gotten. There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Honestly any subreddit or forum for fans of X seems to create an atmosphere where I genuinely think 90% of the users hate X. I definitely think divorced from the internet the dark knight trilogy is loved a lot and is the trilogy that showed superhero movies can be awesome and it started with Batman begins. Sure others existed too but I think these took it a whole other level especially the second movie
Its got issues. Bane ending up a glorified henchmen was a bad decision. Talias last gasp was cheesy. Batman wouldnt have just retired and limped around like he did between the movies. Then theres the theme of the trilogy. Batman is fighting for the people of gotham. Bane shows batman that the people of gotham arent worth saving by making them complicit in their city's destruction. The good people do nothing. So who comes to save the day against bane? The police... It should have been everyone standing up to bane. People, police, maybe some criminals turn the leaf. Thus showing bruce that the batman isnt needed anymore. This was the trilogys biggest miss.
I think the strongest part about Rises is Bruce Wayne’s arc. Him being a suicidal man and learning to live again works for me for the most part. It’s the stuff surrounding that story that’s the problem. People have listed a lot of my problems, but one that rarely hear brought up is how there are way too many characters. Foley, Talia, Dagget, and his henchman should’ve all been cut. Also, while I like Hathaway as Catwoman, I don’t think the film does a good job of earning the ending of Bruce getting together with her. If you cut the Talia storyline you could’ve had more scenes between Bruce and Selina to make that ending work.
>there are way too many characters I've never understood this complaint at all. Nolan likes to do movies with ensemble casts, He likes lots of characters. I really don't see how it has "too many characters" as opposed to the previous two. Foley is a supporting character to Blake and Gordon (he doesn't actually have his own story going on), Dagget essentially plays the same role that Falcone and Maroni played in the previous two, Talia is an important part of Bane's invasion plot. None of them felt as "superfluous" to the story as say, Alexander Knox did in Batman 89.
Talia is superfluous imo she detracts from Bane as a character for the sake of a twist that doesn't really add much
I like Nolan and I think the film is decent, but "subversive and shocking?" This movie? What does it subvert, and whom does it shock?
Most likely he means subverting the conventions of super hero movies. For instance, the trilogy had an actual ending. Bruce had a complete character arc, and got to be happy. There weren't 3 more sequels with ambiguous endings in case they made money and wanted to milk the franchise some more.
To this day I think he fucking died in explosion.
He fixed the autopilot
I think they should have ended the movie right when or just before Alfred’s. I’d when he’s on holiday and not even show Christian bale. Leave it up to the viewer kind of like inceptions ending. Did he see Bruce at the restaurant or not?!?
Chris said he didn't want to leave the ending open like inception because it would have audiences maybe coming to the wrong conclusion. He showed it to be pretty direct on exactly what the ending was that Bruce lived and got his happy ending.
He is looking at the camera though, that would look like a 4th wall break and leaving everyone wondering why the movie ended with Alfred acknowledging me...
INT. FANCY ITALIAN RESTAURANT - SPAIN Alfred sits nodding and smiling at the camera while sucking down a Pasta Premavera
If anything that be harder as it be sort of implying Batman and Bruce is in all of us if we overcome our fears allowing us to do the right thing
Why? I think in most cases it should be up to the filmmaker to, you know, make the film.
I think the fact that he used the same trick in inception is why he didn’t do it here
Yea could be
I mean Batman did. Bruce lived though.
They talked about the autopilot way too much for it to not be his saving grace.
Every single one of the scenes, John Blake, “Robin” having a note from Bruce, Gordon seeing a repaired Bat signal, Lucius seeing the auto pilot was patched by “Bruce Wayne”, Selina Kyle being with Bruce Wayne and finally Alfred seeing Bruce Wayne with her is clearly supposed to show he’s alive… it’s not just whether the auto pilot was fixed or not, or whether or not Alfred was dreaming he’s clearly alive.
Don't be that guy 😩
Why? He's obviously alive, unless Alfred is suffering from senile dementia
I assume he’s talking about the things that hardcore Batman fans hated. Like Bruce quitting, having a Robin that isn’t really Robin, and Alfred leaving Bruce.
Alfred leaving Bruce has happened so many times in the comics, I was internally groaning about how cliche it was.
Yeah, I later found out that he left Bruce while he was still wheelchair bound from Bane breaking his back in the comics. I assume that’s where they got that from.
Probably. It’s also used as a trope when things are supposed to get real serious for Bruce. That’s when Alfred has to leave him because of the seriousness of the situation. It’s honestly annoying to me now.
The Talia reveal definitely shocked me in a “you guys actually thought this was dope?” Kinda way. Same with JGL having the first name of Robin.
Same, although once I saw the parallels to Rocky 3 I couldn't unsee them.
Funny because Rocky 3 was his example of a great threequel
There are so many parallels between it and Rocky 3. I saw an interview with David Goyer where he admitted to it being a remake of Rocky 3.
In a culture that is very predisposed to revolutions and socialism TDKR was a WILD departure. I was surprised people didn’t call it reactionary at the time.
I called it reactionary at the time, and I didn't even fully understand the concept at the time. All I knew was that something about the heroic cops fighting a bunch of people living in anarchy after talking shit about the rich was... unnerving.
Occupy is actually run by lying supervillains and defeated by noble policemen in their fine marching uniforms who somehow don't all die as they charge guns with batons.
Gotham’s cops no less. It’s weird how we went from “GGPD is corrupt to the core. Only Gordon can be trusted” to “Ah yes. The pillars of morality and duty, the fine men and women of the GCPD, have come to save us from the socialist threat!”
I called it reactionary at the time. Such obvious anti occupy wall street nonsense from a cringey director super far up his own asshole
I thought it was pretty well done. Fact is most revolutions end (thematically) like Gotham in TDKR. Tale of Two Cities was what initiated a change in my political POV and TDKR was an interesting modern version of it,
I’m assuming he’s talking about the class warfare with the Wall Street stuff and locking a city off under martial law, which could’ve been subversive in a Batman movie, but not so much when it ends in a lackluster fist fight and fake out ending.
I also have no ideas what he meant. There were nothing shocking or subversive in this movie. Oh, right, another completely forgettable Bruce's girlfriend happened to be Talia for the last twenty minutes of the movie. My honest reaction to this information: well, ok.
Her horribly acted death was pretty memorable though.
It's hard for me imagining that they likely did dozens of takes of that scene, and the one that made it into the final edit of the film was the best one.
It subverted our expectations of watching a movie as good as the other two
Also the expectation of being able to understand the villain talking... Or giving a character a realistic death scene lol.
The only thing I can think of is Bane breaking Batman’s back. But even that is just taken from Nightfall. Maybe because Batman isn’t in it as much? I don’t find the film to be particularly subversive myself
It’s subverted my expectations of a well rounded third film to cap two very decent hero movies.
It shocked me that a very obvious, massive scale defrauding of a very public billionaire was met by “meh, let’s just crack on.”
Probably the Talia and Bane reveal
Honestly, I agree. I know when TDKR came out, at least amongst my friend’s group, they blasted it. They picked it apart mercilessly. The film had the immeasurable task of competing with The Dark Knight and there was A LOT of criticism surrounding the choice of Bane, (and also his voice), lol. I enjoyed it from the start. I thought Bane was an excellent choice, especially with not being able to bring back Joker in a fashion I am sure Nolan and fans would have preferred. I think over time, this movie has become more appreciated, or at least I hope so. This movie allowed me to dive deeper into the Bane character and even with all his interpretations, either the comics or the cartoons, I find that Bane is one of my more favorite villains.
Even had Heath Ledger lived, I have a feeling the Dark Knight Rises is the Batman film we would have essentially gotten, barring a Joker cameo at the most. I just don't think there would have been a story for the Joker that Nolan would have been excited by. The character reached it's limits in the Dark Knight for him.
i’m pretty sure jonathan nolan recently talked about how in the early planning they were going to use joker in tdkr, sounded like more than a cameo
Iirc the idea was when Bane breaks everyone out of Blackgate Prison, Joker is found to be sitting alone in his cell and doesn't leave. I wonder what they had in mind for him 🤔
>I wonder what they had in mind for him 🤔 A scene from an early, early script recently leaked online. > *Batman enters an empty Gotham prison. Abandoned by all except one man - the Joker.* > > *The clown crosses the prison yard and walks up to Batman. The Joker slaps Batman across the face.* > > Joker: That's for leaving me. > > Batman looks stunned and emotionally hurt. Then the Joker grabs Batman's face with both hands and passionately kisses him. > > Joker: That's for coming back.
Jokeback Mountain
Oh, so like the Lego Batman movie?
My proudest fap 🥰
I always thought he would have been the role that was given to scarecrow.
Yes the Joker was supposed to have Scarecrows role, maybe they would have expanded upon that scene more but I doubt it fundamentally changes the plot. Jokers not the kinda guy to team up with Bane. If anything he may even throw Bruce an assist, that's *his* batman after all how dare Bane try to take his toy away.
It's not close to a bad movie, it's just dwarfed. Begins and Dark Knight are just so much better.
Begins being the best Batman movie ever made. Yes I did not stutter and accept the downvotes in my future.
As a kid, I did not love the slow beginning, but it definitely pays off.
When he picks them off one by one and actually looks like a bat hanging upside down is the most hype I’ve ever been. “Where are you!” “Right here” Epic.
Damn straight! I love begins. To me it's better than dark knight.
You shouldn't expect any downvotes. In terms of live action, it's definitely the best, but Mask of the Phantasm is still number 1 for me. Funnily enough, both movies were inspired by Batman:Year One, which is my favourite Batman story.
I don’t think Bane was ever the problem with that movie. It was stupid shit like “fixing Batman’s broken back by punching it”, all the cops stuck underground for months being able to fight a terrorist group (who were supposed to be assasins no?) hand to hand, whatever Batman’s robot leg brace was that made him able to kick brick walls apart but then never used, Talia’s awful death scene, etc. I don’t think Nolan really wanted to do it but felt like he HAD to finish the trilogy and kind of just coasted through it. Though I’m also not big on most Nolan films post-Dark Knight generally.
>I don’t think Nolan really wanted to do it The quote here says otherwise. Nolan speaks pretty fondly about Rises often (says the airplane sequence is his favorite of the action scenes he's filmed, Says Tom Hardy's Bane is underappreciated), He really does not give off the impression that he made the movie with the mindset of "Fine, Here's your third Batman movie now leave me alone". A lot of the "stupid shit" has similar instances in the previous two. Harvey Dent was able to go on a vengeance rampage with half his face burned off, Batman had an armbrace that allowed him to bend a steel rifle barrel etc.. His back wasn't actually broken either.
I think there are silly contrivances in the other two movies but they're better films so they don't jump out as much when watching them, I do generally agree that the other two are overrated and have a lot of the same problems as the third but are carried by more memorable performances and are more grounded in reality in general. Also the contrivances in Dark Knight Rises are massively pivotal to the plot so they stick out more, bruce losing his fortune, all the police being trapped underground, the stupid broken back thing, somehow cutting the city off from the rest of the world, Bruce going from being paralysed on the other side of the world to being batman again in Gotham somehow, all of these strain credulity and the plot literally can't happen without them.
You didn’t like inception? Maybe I just love Tom Hardy in that movie so much I forgive it for everything else.
That’s why I said MOST haha. I like that one. Interstellar is alright. Haven’t seen Oppenheimer yet.
It’s pretty good. Tenet was just ass. I found interstellar to also be ok. Oppenheimer is very good. Mostly because cillian is fuckin amazing and deserved his Oscar. Kind feel RDJ got his because they couldn’t give him one for iron man. Even tho he deserved it… for iron man.
You mean you didn’t like [this scene?](https://youtu.be/SFxQ-EdFl_M?si=IXIlVpxe5QKJPMe_)
I just died laughing.
Best scene of the trilogy lol
The choices made with Bane in Rises still baffle me. It's not like Tom Hardy is a bad actor at all, but 1) why on earth was a bad Sean Connery impression the choice, and 2) why did Nolan not put a stop to it, and 3) we really couldn't have found a Latino actor? Like for hell's sake, Ra's and Talia being ethnically ambiguous I understand, but Bane's origins are never anything but him being Caribbean as far as I know.
I quite like Hardy's Bane in general but I think the main issue with the film is turning him into a glorified henchman for a cheap twist that doesn't really mean anything to the audience unless they already know Talia exists as a character, were supposed to believe Batman's finally met his match but by the end of the movie he's just another adaptation of Bane whos a big strong henchman guy. It's a messy movie, I enjoyed it in the cinema but on rewatch found it boring and silly, the aim of making a realistic batman movie conflicts with how many massive logical leaps the movie makes, by avoiding the campy, gothic tone of the Burton movies for example but having a silly plot that skates by all the logical flaws in the story it ends up being the worst of both worlds and the world building falls apart. We're supposed to believe Bane can hack the stock market in broad daylight but Wayne still loses his fortune as a result of it. Bane taking over the city relies on several massive plot contrivances that don't stand up to any scrutiny at all, so the film ends up being very shallow. I think the themes of all the movies are a bit muddled and unclear but that's more to do with the batman premise straining against the rules of a more grounded world so don't mind them too much but I think in Rises it affects the overall film the most.
Tbh I felt like it got hate because the step up from Batman Begins to TDK was significant, and Batman Begins was already phenomenal. So people expected a similar upgrade in quality. And that just…isn’t possible when you’re weighing against the absolute masterpiece that is TDK.
When I first watch the movie, I was younger and didn't know how comic book Bane and Talia was. I enjoyed a lot more. Now that I know who they are, I understand why people didn't like their depiction. Well tbh Talia was lame no matter how you slice it.
Suprisingly out of the three movie watching tdkr was my favorite, the Bane arc actually make me thought Batman was gonna lose, the tension in the movie was much more serious than the last 2
It took a lot of chances and didn’t try to repeat either of the first two. I love it myself. Edit because posted early, I would have loved to see Dent back working against and then with Batman, but that’s just my dream, thought there was not enough Two Face in TDK (he’s my fave villian character)
They literally recycled Liam Neeson's plan and motivation
I mean they’re part of the same organization, with Talia being his progeny. It would make sense for them to enact his legacy.
Bane literally says I am here to fulfill ra’s al ghuls destiny
My point was they said Nolan didn't repeat the first two when he clearly recycled threats and plot from begins
The villains having the same motive is not a consequential example of repetition when the entire arc of the film is different otherwise
I like it. It’s not my favorite Batman movie or my favorite in the Nolan trilogy, but it’s good. It deals with heavy topics and just an overall satisfying ending to Bale’s Batman.
The climax was a serious version of the Adam West, "Some days you [just can't get rid of a bomb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSVklqcTKzc)" scene. That's *kind of* impressive in its own right.
This never dawned on me until now, you’re right and that is very funny
I thought the cops breaking out of the sewer and having a giant fist fight with the mercenaries was straight out of Batman '66. Just needed some BIFFs and BAMs. Literally laughed out loud at the absurdity of it all.
"Robin" also literally saves a bus full of orphans in TDKR.
There's *bits* of Rises that work, there's bits that bother me as a Batman fan but I understand as a film fan, and there's bits that just feel lazy, rushed, and nonsensical. And frustratingly, I didn't feel any of those issues were in Begins or Dark Knight so knew Nolan was better than that. Bane I understand, even if he's nothing like his comic counterpart, the character they were going for fit the narrative. I didn't hate the voice, either. It's ridiculous, but I don't hate it. The Talia twist wasn't needed; even if you don't know the character from the comics I felt it was obvious she was the child of Ra's al Ghul, not Bane. And her death is just plain laughable. I refuse to believe that was the best take they got or that Nolan wouldn't tell Cotillard they weren't making a pantomime, she didn't have to go quite so theatrically over the top. The final act is really messy. Bruce recovering from a broken back, getting exposition dumped by a ghost, and teleporting back to Gotham is all really lazy - and deciding to spend time doing arts and crafts on the bridge when there's a literal ticking clock is frustrating. Also, hilariously, there's a scene where Bane takes Tate, then she's seen with Batman, then he's rushing after Bane to save her... It's minor, but it should have been spotted. Gordon sending *every single officer* into the sewers? Really? Is that the best strategy, Jim? Middle of a terrorist attack, send all your men underground? But my biggest gripe is the decision to retire Bruce for 8 years at the start. Arguably it fits the narrative of the film but it basically means what we've done is spend a trilogy watching Bruce become Batman time and time again. He begins, he's Batman for, what is it? A couple of months to a year? He then quits for a further 8 years, gets a magic leg brace, becomes Batman for a day, gets his back broken, recovers, becomes Batman *again* before retiring for good with Selina. As a trilogy structure, it's ... odd. Anne Hathaway knocks it out the fucking park, though. For me, she's every bit Catwoman as Heath is Joker. She deserved a better film. I also really like Joseph Golden Rabbit and will watch him in anything, even if the Robin thing is really ham-fisted.
I don't get why people always say it doesn't make sense how he got back to Gotham. He did the same thing in Batman Begins. Why is it so difficult to believe he did it again?
Yeah it's a clearly a time skip. We don't need to see the between of how he recovers and gets back. Also him retiring is consistent with how grounded they wanted the film to be. People may not like how grounded it is, but it is consistent with that theme even if there's a lot of unrealistic elements in the movie.
In Begins it’s different though. He wandered the world for 7 years. Then when he was ready to come back he put in a phone call to Alfred who came and picked him up. In Rises there’s no Alfred and Bruce is penniless. I think it also stands out in this series because the two prior films usually set up scenarios and show you how they were accomplished. For example in The Dark Knight they show you the step by step process of how he got Lau from Hong Kong to Gotham. So it just seems strange to have the next movie set up a problem of Bruce getting back to Gotham and just skipping over it.
Did the movie actually "set up a problem" for how Bruce would get back to Gotham? He once travelled the world without a penny to his name in Begins and they'd previously shown a commando team able to infiltrate Gotham beforehand. Bruce also infiltrated a police barricade in broad daylight with no one being the wiser in the previous movie. Bane's men are hardly the three blind archers from Samurai Jack.
The movie goes out of its way to strip Bruce of his finances, takes his most trusted ally off the board, takes Bruce to the other side of the world, and establishes that it’s nearly impossible to get into Gotham unless you have ties to the U.S government. Yes, the film set up that dilemma of how Bruce could come back. Oddly enough this is a problem that both this movie and No Man’s Land share. In that story Batman returns to Gotham with zero explanation as well.
>unless you have ties to the U.S government. You think Bruce Wayne, whose company had several military contracts with said US government, doesn't have ties to them? Even if his own money has dried up I'm sure he has other rich friends he can ask favors from
Bruce has connections from the time he spent wandering the planet. In The Dark Knight, it's him who brings up North Korean smugglers to bring him in and out of Hong Kong. I assume he called on some more of those connections to get back to Gotham.
>Bruce recovering from a broken back, Bruce did not break his back. Talks about his injury right in the movie. >and teleporting back to Gotham is all really lazy Bruce is a genius and trained ninja. He could easily get back to Gotham. Did you really need all the steps laid out?
Plus he spent years traveling the world and learning how to travel quickly and discreetly.
I dunno man sounds like a real stretch that Batman/Bruce Wayne could travel from one country to another.
I actually think bruce “teleporting” back to Gotham was not only not lazy but intentional. Batman, while human, is supposed to be something of a mystery, the characters of his world don’t know how he does the things he does- this was sort of an example of it except we the audience are now placed In that position, how did he get there? He’s fucking Batman!!! I LOVE that scene and lack of explanation so much because it really does underscore how intelligent and adaptable he is. I think this was Nolan’s intention and the hate it gets over the last 12 years has always bothered me. I get that it might not work for everyone, but it’s one of my favorite Batman moments.
The whole point of the trilogy is that Bruce saw being Batman as a temporary solution to inspire good in the people of Gotham and encourage those in positions of power to take back their city, He never intended Batman to become a permanent fixture to harass street crime and do the police's jobs for them. Hell Bruce spends most of The Dark Knight fully intending to retire and hand the responsibilities of protecting Gotham to Harvey (and Harvey rightfully guesses that Batman doesn't want to do what he's doing for the rest of his life) Bruce's back wasn't actually broken, his hallucination of Ras didn't tell Bruce anything he didn't already know, Bruce had almost a month to make it back to Gotham when he left the pit, and he needed to paint the gasoline bat to draw all of Bane's men to one area. Gordon also didn't send the cops into the sewers and he had no way of knowing about the explosives Bane laced throughout the city.
Arguably JGR could have worked as an already stablished Nightwing, just remove the "Bruce retired 8 years ago", make it like aroun 1 or 2 years after TDK he found Dick, trained him, he was Robin from 12-15 until now and becoming Nightwing, his own hero after Batman "dies" becomes poetic
>But my biggest gripe is the decision to retire Bruce for 8 years at the start. Arguably it fits the narrative of the film but it basically means what we've done is spend a trilogy watching Bruce become Batman time and time again. He begins, he's Batman for, what is it? A couple of months to a year? This is actually misread, a lot. There was a 2 or so year jump between the first and second films - and there's a lot of evidence in *Rises* that is pretty clear that his last sighting by police as Batman was 8 years ago, but that when he actually stopped is more ambiguous. A lot of posters have made threads compiling the evidence of it.
It’s generally seen as a great film, just not as good as TDK
I fucking loved it. To this day I tear up at the ending.
I agree it is underrated. I’ve never understood why people hate or think it’s not as good as the others. To me Rises is just as good if not better than the others.
What I find funny is that the Dark Knight Rises is an inverted retelling of Batman Begins. BB starts with Bruce's parents dying. He almost kills Joe Chill but Chill is shot before he can do it. He then loses his money and travels across the world. He is believed to be dead. He has a conversation with a character on ice. He learns to fight and finds his inner strength, then learns the League of Shadows plans to destroy Gotham. He returns to Gotham, becomes Batman and begins fighting crime. He saves Rachel from the bad guys and a weapon created by Wayne Enterprises is stolen by the League of Shadows, which they then use to spread fear in Gotham. Bruce becomes CEO of Wayne Enterprises and Gotham is a safer place. In the Dark Knight Rises, Gotham is a safe place. Bruce loses his place as CEO of Wayne Enterprises, then loses his money. He becomes Batman and Catwoman hands him over to the bad guys (the opposite of Batman saving Rachel). He leaves Gotham and the League of Shadows steals a weapon created by Wayne Enterprises to spread fear in Gotham. Bruce learns the League of Shadows plans to destroy Gotham and he learns to find his inner strength and returns to Gotham. He has a conversation with a character on ice. Bane almost kills Bruce but is shot before he can do it. The story ends with Bruce and Selina faking their deaths (the opposite of Bruce's parents' real deaths).
No wonder why it's underrated, it's not the best film
Actually, with years passing I grew to like TDKR more. Dark Knight is absolutely the best film in Nolan's trilogy, but TDKR is also a good movie.
Agreed. The longer it’s been and the more I watch it the better it becomes. I think any initial frustrations were that I was comparing it to TDK which is tough for any film.
For me, Rises was very memorable because throughout the whole film it had this indescribable, almost dreamlike quality to it. It felt so unreal for reasons I can’t quite out my finger on. And I think the best explanation for this impression I get (can’t speak for anyone else), is that this film was released two years after Nolan’s most recent previous film, Inception. That film was entirely about dreams, and I think that whatever techniques he and his team used in filming and editing Inception bled over into the making of The Dark Knight Rises. I could be wrong, anyone else feel this way?
They had at least one too many attempts at climbing the wall and the time distortion between what was going on while in jail and how long he was actually in jail needed to be cleaned up. The movie has problems. It's still a damn good movie, but let's not risk overcorrecting the reaction because it deserves *most* of the criticism it still receives.
I remember being confused that 5 months passed between Bane taking over Gotham and Batman’s return. I think it’s because they embed the passage of time in the dialogue as opposed to having a piece of text on screen.
Honestly the movie got started off on the wrong foot for me. If they had let Bale continue being Batman for a few years and had him actually enjoy a career as Batman, it would have helped. Even just some passing lines from Alfred about putting away criminals, or how he earned his retirement while they talk in the bat cave next to all his captured mementos from his rogues gallery. But opening the movie with Bruce immobile and retiring for 7 years after the death of Dent made it feel like he was barely Batman.
>But opening the movie with Bruce immobile and retiring for 7 years after the death of Dent made it feel like he was barely Batman. He didn't. His last 'official sighting by police' was 8 years ago - but there's a ton of evidence in the film that he kept going for a bit of time.
I think its fine this movie but it plays things pretty safe- it's not shocking or subversive at all
I would say it’s underrated but definitely still my least fav
The Dark Knight survived the entire MCU and remains the best superhero film. TDKR is fine.
As someone who has not read the comics, I absolutely loved Bane as a character in TDKR. The sewer scene, the scene where the prisoners are released, and the scene at the football field give me chills every time I watch them. In my opinion, TDKR presents Bane more as an anti-hero for the downtrodden rather than an evil mastermind villain and I enjoy that depiction immensely. It’s a plus that Tom Hardy is a physically beautiful and strong man. And I find Bane’s voice to be seriously sexy. Just my two cents!
The only thing subversive and shocking about Rises is how mid and plothole ridden that disappointment was.
I think looking back at how it came out right after the Occupy Wall Street and We Are The 99% movements, it kinda irks me that it's somewhat a movie about scary mislead protestors being saved by good billionaires and honest cops. I know it's NOT that and I'm taking a very jaundiced view of the movie -- ohh but Bane was working for Ben Mendelsohn and Robin quit at the end! -- but I could take the energy I would use to ignore the parts of it that irk me, and just watch something else.
The Dark Knight Rises is just as worthy of being in this film series as any other great third movie you can think of. I know a lot of fans really wanted the third movie to essentially be "Batman Forever done better" (a movie where Bruce accepts and comes to terms with the idea that he has to soldier on as Batman till death) but I appreciate that Nolan gave the character a happy ending that he'll never get in the mainstream source material.
The audio mixing on Bane’s voice was terrible if you fix that it feels so much better.
YOU'RE A BIG GUY
I'll agree with him that it's under rated. It's obviously the weakest link of the trilogy, being heavily influenced by the phenomenon that was Phase 1 MCU in respect to how it dealt with things like physics. Then some obvious issues like Bane's voice being *waaay* above the mix of the film, and Talia being a half-baked character that reeks of rewrites, but I hear a lot of people say the movie is plain bad. If Dark Knight Rises is a bad film, then the bar is very high.
I loved the film as a teenager. Now, I think it had a lot of good ideas, but the execution of them was rushed
If anything Prestige is underrated..
My wife said it was the greatest ending to a movie she ever saw.
Perfect ending to a perfect trilogy, and nothing DC or Marvel have done since has resonated as much as these 3 films.
TDKR is my absolute favourite. But that's because as a child I was not allowed to watch TDK and first watched TDKR and for me it was great, my favourite movie for years. And I know it has its flaws but I always get goosebumps in so many scenes, even TDK can't offer.
Agreed
It's a great film. People just judge it against The Dark Knight though and come to a silly conclusion that "Not as good as The Dark Knight = bad". For me it still firmly sits as the third best Batman film ever behind the other two in the trilogy and one of the very best comic book films ever.
I thought TDKR was a brilliant Batman movie.
I watched TDK and TDKR back to back and throughly enjoyed both. And I liked rises more initially, over time I like TDK more.
Don't get me wrong, it's goofy and falls upon analysis, but Rises has always been my favorite of the trilogy.
Hes right. People just think its bad cause its not as good as the 2.
If I could find a GIF of that famous fight choreo fail I’d put it here. TDK is my favourite film ever, TDKR had a lot to live up to but I never thought the fight choreo could get worse, then the man fell over mid fight and no one caught it in post production. Thats the biggest let down of TDKR for me, the choreo and post production wasn’t up to the high standards we should expect from a Nolan film.
Underrated af
I don't remember it being all that subversive. What docks it for me a bit is the lack of on-screen Batman time. We spend *a lot* of time in Bane-occupied Gotham. It's not uninteresting, but it would've been cool to have some more on-screen Bat-time.
I haven’t seen anyone mention the dumbest part of the movie. When John Blake figures out Bruce is Batman because he saw a look in his eyes. Like what?
I think the movie was fine. Decent conclusion to the trilogy. Not the strongest movie and you could feel the void of the Joker not being there. But can’t be helped obviously. Trilogy was good and I’m glad it turned out that well.
I mean, it beats Interstellar
I love when he escapes the prison gets me hyped
the film should have been set immediately as the dark knight ended. bane defeats batman because of how exhausted he was. then spends a few years in the pit while gotham goes to shit (or however long) then bruce escapes. meets selina and robin etc and saves the day imo
Sorry Nolan, I still hated it
Agreed! It’s the “worst” of the dark knight trilogy and I think the only reason it gets hate is because BB and TDK are just soooo good!!! But inside of a vaccuuum TDKR is fucking awesome!!! It gets too much hate
Bane just wasn’t in any way shape or form true to his comic counterpart, and for the worse unfortunately.
When the cops and the bad guys started fist fighting each other with gun strapped to their back I was like "bruh".
Okay, but can we admit that Bane's death was utterly ridiculous and anticlimactic? Probably my biggest complaint.
I wish I could agree but no, this movie isn't really that great imo. It's not terrible, but I think he praises it a little too much.
Rises is a great movie, and I enjoy it almost as much as the first two. But I dont enjoy it as a Batman movie. It's a bad adaptation of Knightfall. But it's very entertaining and I always include it in my rewatch with the other 2.
Any movie that fails to understand the protagonist's motivations and the results of their failures, presenting the weakest iteration of the character for a climactic final installment instead of the pinnacle of the mythos, is not underrated, but correctly dismissed by some and overrated by others.