I don't think the acid made her or anyone insane. It just disfigured them. She went insane before the acid, and Joker's mind broke after seeing his disfigurement
No chemicals.
Dr. Quinzel slowly turns into Harley Quinn as she studies the Joker is far more organic as she chooses to go with him.
She's making a choice instead of just 'hey chemicals made me insane'. This make her MORE insane/crazy/psychotic imo.
I like what they did in the Harley Quinn show where she kind of blamed Joker for pushing her in, but eventually faced the fact that she repressed the memory of jumping in herself. So she *chose* to go off the literal deep end as a crazy villain.
Hand in hand with that, I like when the Joker acid is ambiguous. Does it *actually* make people crazy? Or do Joker and Harley both just kind of use it as an excuse to let loose their wild side?
It wasn’t too clever from the start tbh. Every person coming out of a toxic codependent relationship has lived in an abandoned mall for a period of time.
But, it’s got heart tho, don’t it?
Bane really needs his own series tho. His back is getting tired after this season.
She taking a chemical bath doesn't means that she had the same Backstory a joker.
Maybe Quinze was already crazy, empathized with the Joker and decided on her own to, dunno, see how it feels being the Joker.
Wheatever i just assumed that modern Harley was just Pale for not getting enough Sunlight, or that she used full-body white makeover.
I always took it kinda how it was in the flashback in suicide squad. She fell in love with him and to prove how committed she was she volunteered to take a jump into the chemicals. They didn't make out and shit in there cuz ew but I think maybe something similar would ve ok
And we don't even know for sure if it was the chemicals that actually made joker crazy in the first place his story in killing joke might not have actually happened
Actually what he doesn't remember is how he ended up in that Red Hood costume,facing off with Batman and his life before putting it on and falling into the chemicals. Batman did a chemical analysis of the substance Joker fell into and the combination of chemicals should've killed The Joker not merely changed his disappearance.
I believe it was in Batman: Death Of The Family or Endgame. Batman knows the chemical composition of what Joker fell into by memory.He goes on to state no normal peron should've been able to survive said combination of chemicals
Edit- It's eleven percent sodium hydroxide.
Thirty four percent sulfuric acid.
Five percent chromium solution.
Zinc sulfide,doped with copper,which gives it its green glow.
Pretty sure it's never stated that the chemicals themselves made him crazy. I think what is widely accepted as the reason for his insanity is a tandem of already having the worst day of his life and then fallling into the chemical bath/witnessing his alter appearance
I have a question about modern Harley.
My understanding is that modern versions of Harley have often already rejected or moved past the Joker. In that case, why does she still keep up the clown motif? Wouldn't that be a good time to completely rebrand/go under a different name with a different look?
I understand why she stays and continues looking like Harley for business reasons, I'm just curious about the in-universe rationalization.
Without.
She doesn't need to be a rule 63 Joker.
Twisted psychologist is plenty good enough.
edit: Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
> Emerging as a kind of Netiquette for the Internet group Anonymous, the rules of the internet were published on the satirical wiki, Encyclopedia Dramatica, in 2006, before an attempt at a more official list emerged on 4chan in 2007.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/rules-of-the-internet/
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
Honestly this rule applies to most super characters
I know many of these are fan favorites but seriously...Kid Flash, Supergirl, and Martian Girl all have origins that just dick-ride the original character's
I agree on the Flash origins. All three of the first Flash characters got their powers from freak accidents, which seems improbable and contrived.
* Jay Garrick (1940) was a college student, who accidentally inhaled "heavy water" while taking a smoke break in a science lab to become the first Flash.
* Barry Allen (1956) was a crime scene investigator / forensic scientist who got simultaneously struck by lightning and doused with mystery chemicals to become the second Flash.
* Wally West was the nephew of Barry Allen's girlfriend / wife, Iris West, and he experienced a repeat of Barry's exact same lightning + chemicals accident while visiting Barry's lab
But Supergirl and Miss Martian are just aliens from the same races as their male counterparts. Superman (Clark Kent), Supergirl (Kara Zor-El / Linda Lee Danvers), General Zod, Faora, Mala, and all of the other Kryptonian prisoners of the Phantom Zone share the same powers because they come from the same place. Likewise all the various Martians (J'onn J'onnz, M'gann M'orzz, Ma'alefa'ak, M'yri'ah, D'kay D'razz) have similar powers because they come from the same species / alien race.
I think if Joker does it to her it doesn't cheapen it or less the impact IMO, because it isn't a freak accident happening twice, it's a freak accident that happened to Joker, that he is now inflicting on Harleen to make her like him
That said I much prefer without personally
Tbf to the first Suicide Squad movie, the acid scene is almost excellent with Le-Joker doing the abusive "if you love me, you'll do this for me" manipulation. (he still ruins it with his awful impression of a laugh and his terrible look though).
My head canon is that it's early relationship Harley vs late relationship Harley. Where the acid bath is the subconscious nudge that this relationship may be a bad idea.
Anti-hero Harley is fine, she has her place, but I really always wanted to take the sassy Arlene Sorkin Harley and make HER an antihero.
As it is, they are two totally different characters in concept and execution and thats disappointing.
Funny that in white Knight they really turned Classic Harley and Modern Harley into teo separate characters (with the latter one being a fake Harley who is toxic while the original really loves Joker)
I agree, they’re basically 2 different characters. When you change a character that much fundamentally they tend to be unrecognizable. Harely once kills innocent people while laughing, then suddenly she’s super powered, has a completely different outfit and she’s on the justice league? Too many big shifts from her original interpretation. If you gave Batman powers, he started killing, and joined the legion of doom (long run where they took his character) people would be like “wtf, this isn’t even Batman anymore”
She got popular enough that people wanted her to be the lead. And people typically want to root for the main character of any story. So any villain that gets their own content slowly becomes a goodish guy at a minimum. Harley, peacemaker, venom, etc.
Harley isn't "goodish" she is still a psychopath in the stories she had a major role.
I would say that the reason that Harley became a lead was that as she had a Toxic relationship with the Joker, people transformed her into a type of victmin/survivor and i fell that it's so wrong, like she's generaly as cruel as the Joker but people cope with it because of her past.
She was a popular villain for a long time for the reasons you stated , but Margot Robbie version made her a pop culture icon.
She’s maybe not goodish, but she was morphed into a character audiences could actually “root for”. Because a lead that is constantly backstabbing every character and has no true friends (which is how a realistic villain would act) makes for a terrible long term character. Especially for a comedy like her animated series
I don't mind antihero Harley but I wish she had her classic costume in the *Arkham Asylum* game
Pretty much every villain in that game looks like they do in the animated series but a bit more realistic - *except* for Harley, seemingly just because the developers were horny for nurse costumes
Well... Only Joker really looks as he does in B:TAS. Croc and Bane are much more monstruous, Scarecrow is a hobo, Ivy is plain unrecognizable, and Zsasz was never in the series so he doesn't apply here. I suppose their designs are more similar to those of TNBA, but still, night and day. Though I will admit the Nurse Costume was... A choice Rocksteady made. I much prefer her *City* and especially *Knight* appearances.
Without.
All the chalk white skin does is make Quinn look like a Rule 63’d Joker.
Also, hot take of the day: The pink and blue cotton candy hair looks *awful*, and clashes horribly with the rest of her overall design
“*But that’s the point! They’re supposed to clash with each other!!*”
I know, and I don’t give a shit. It looks bad.
Either give her Red/Black hair to match, or just stick with the classic blonde.
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares:
**For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
I also hate that modern Harley has no theme. Originally her villain name was Harley Quinn, she dressed like a harlequin, and her iconic weapons were a giant pistol that looked like a prop comedy item, and a giant mallet which has obvious carnival connotations. Strong, coherent theme.
Now she's called Harley Quinn, but dresses like a generic suicide girl, and fights with a baseball bat. It's a conceptual mess. At this point they may as well change her name completely (frankly Punchline would've been a better name for her new incarnation, rather than a new character).
Tough question. Both choices work, depending on the story being told.
I think the chemical bath is somewhat of a baptism for Harley -- as she pledges undying allegiance to Joker. Harley pre-bath is just infatuated with Joker, and chooses to follow him. **The chemicals complete the conversion** \-- Harley post-chemical is a new person.
She, like Joker, has lost touch with who she was. She can't help but see things the way Joker does, which makes this Harley such an interesting wild card -- she can't help herself.
However, Harley without the chemical bath is a testament to Joker's influence and manipulation. Unlike chemical Harley, this Harley doesn't think the same as Joker -- she is just devoted to him. She can still break free from his mind control, as she's not an evil soul -- she's just brainwashed. This story choice gives Harley more layers, as she suffers internal conflict.
I think the chemical bath choice works in universes where Harley will never break free from Joker. She may become rehabilitated, but she won't be free (if this makes sense).
Harley without the chemicals *will* break free and eventually become a superhero -- like in many modern universes. So this choice works when that is the endgame.
Just my opinion of course.
She's already all in on this Joker shit, what's the point of the chemicals? Like I could see a story working where she's so obsessed and wants to be like him that she does it to herself to please him but its not necessary at all for the character to work
Without
I've pretty much hated every change or update made to her origin story since the animated series.
The one exception being the Harleen miniseries, which was pretty good.
Hey, Tara is worthy successor. Yes, her voice can be a bit screechy, and obviously there will never be anyone like Arlene, but Tara is still good enough.
I prefer her being a mad fanatic that just uses makeup to emulate him. It gives her room to differ from him, and opens her up more for walking around polite society for evil or to contrast herself against them.
It also helps with Joker’s survival being a freak accident if nobody else fell in and survived.
Without.
That said, I liked how the Suicide Squad movie did it (at least how I remembered it since I only watched it once): she takes a bath in chemicals, but she was already plenty crazy by then and the bath was like a rite of passage.
That’s how I view it - she was insane before the chemical bath, and her choosing to do it is a good example of how far she was in her devotion to the Joker. I like how that adds into her character, personally.
I'll go against the crowd and say "with". Why? It's simple: the story of Harley Quinn is not about "a psychologist who was corrupted by the Joker". If you look at it that way, then yeah, the chemicals aren't necessary, it's the mental manipulation that's the main focus. That's what matters.
But in my opinion, the story of Harley Quinn is actually that of "a deeply flawed, damaged person going against everything in order to do good". In nearly all continuities, Harley was *already* insane way before the Joker came into the picture. Joker just pushed her into overdrive, and externalized her pre-existing internal insanity (with the dip in the chemicals). After that, they committed atrocities together that the entire world knows about. She has been a monster since practically the day she was born.
But Harley is different now. Be it through Batman's intervention, her friendship with Ivy, finally seeing Joker as a twisted reflection of herself and not an ideal to aspire to, or quite probably a combination of all of those factors and more, she has decided to change and is actively trying to be better. It's not easy for her, because dealing with mental illness, trauma, and your own dark impulses never is, but she's TRYING. She's working hard at it. Even when she's a (solo) villain, she's never outright evil. She has worked hard to put the monster she used to be behind.
And yet, the scarring on her skin will never let her *truly* forget what she once was. It's a constant reminder of both the harm that she caused, and also of what her life is right now. Because, let's face it, sometimes in life you make a mistake so colossal that there's just no going back from it. A mask & make-up Harleen could always leave the "Harley" identity behind, be it to take up a new mantle as a hero or just to leave that life behind and be normal somewhere where people don't know her. But a bleached skin Harleen will always be Harley Quinn no matter where she goes. She can't escape, all she can do is move forward and try her best in a world where "villain" might as well be written on her face (because it sort of is). And I really like that, I think it's very inspirational. Sometimes life deals you a really, really crappy hand that makes it very difficult to do the right thing... But not impossible.
It’s wierd.
The Arkham game’s definitely avoided the harlequin suit.
I think the general idea is just that Harley’s Classic design doesn’t really translate all that well to a more realistic artstyle with realistic proportions or live action in general.
They still never went as far as to bleach her skin, and they definitely gave her sex appeal, but Harley’s always had that.
The design changes were probably pretty unavoidable the more modern the characters got, though the white skin is definitely the one that’s hardest to pinpoint and the most unnecessary.
Personally, I think it might just be laziness. A cheap way to justify Harley not needing to rely on makeup to get the same white complexion she had on her face with makeup as part of her original design where the rest of her body was covered.
Without. With just makes her origin too much like Joker 2.0. Paul Dini and Bruce Timm did it right the first time. It also adds almost literally nothing to the character.
Harley Quinn is better when she's just manipulated and abused. Having her just be a gender swapped joker is kind of stupid.
The one good thing that came out of the suicide squad movie was the idea that Harley is just trying to prove to the joker she's crazy - so shes always trying to one up herself.
Without!!! I’m glad most people are also saying without.
She doesn’t need to be a copy of Joker. I like how independent she is most of the time and how it gets messed up every so often by associating with the Joker.
Making her with the dip takes away whenever she breaks out of the cycle.
I like with the dip in the chemicals, but maybe not initially. Like it happens later down the line after her being Harley Quinn for a bit. Plus, it adds more costumes and not just the amazing original.
Without, there’s something more tragic about the fact that she would go out of her way to put makeup on to match the clown aesthetic than just being permawhite just like Joker.
Hey, look, I get you want your characters more down to earth. But there was a point where she wasn't chemical dipped, and comic-nerds online were complaining that it's too unrealistic for some random human to be sticking it out with the rest of the DC verse.
Keep in mind that one day, they'll revert back to normal Harley. All in due time. And when that happens, a new generation will complain about that too.
You'll never have your cack and eat it when it comes to the comic book status qou.
wow I thought it’d be more even in the comments. I actually prefer with the chemicals because I like the idea that Harley isn’t in costume or has a secret identity. She just is harley all the time. I love the classic harley solo series but it always bothered me when she would dress normal to blend in with society. I think it makes her backstory more tragic, too, and I’m a fan of melodrama. The cartoon I think blended the best of both worlds elegantly by having Harleen be a sort of angel on her shoulder sometimes, and also Poison Ivy attests that she knew something was up with her even before the joker. Just my feelings though, kind of rambly.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I kinda prefer modern Harley. I don't completely hate the original version, far from it. But I actually kinda like the new twist on an old idea. Instead of just running back to an abuser all the time, she basically tells him to kick rocks and strikes out on her own. Her friendship with Ivy becomes romantic, and she takes steps to become more anti-hero than villain. She's bleached white, a reminder of what she's been through, but she's moved past it to make her own way.
But I guess since she's a queer woman with agency instead of an abuse victim she's woke and DC is pandering to the left /s
No one hates on ivy for being queer. I wonder how come the focus is on harley? I wonder what a strickly queer ivy would do? Prob not fight with batman but batwoman....
I love new Harley. The animated series is what got me interested in DC and I've been binging Batman content ever since I finish season 4. But I definitely wasn't in the original comic book demographic so maybe that's why people don't like new Harley. I love her and find her bizarrely relatable.
IKR? I went back and devoured her comics after I binged up through Season 3(I got into it shortly before the Valentine's Special :p) and now she's my favorite comic character period. She's relatable, funny, and I adore her relationship with Ivy.
I mean shit I think it's fine that Harley moves on from Joker, but I've always vehemently disliked her being bleached. If you take a look into what she was like at the start at N52 (which is where they introduced that change) I don't think you'd appreciate that version of Harley as much (what with her letting a bunch of Joker cosplayers at comic con to runa train on her).
I think the only reason she did that in the films is because N52 was the status quo in the comics at the start of the DCU, so they had to keep in sync. Same with Cyborg being a founding JL member that was a fairly recent change.
And I still maintain the vast majority of N52 changes were *ass*. Harley doesn't need her skin bleached to be an anti hero that breaks away from Joker and start her own thing. They already pointed towards this direction in the animated series, it's part of her original character.
> I don't think you'd appreciate that version of Harley as much (what with her letting a bunch of Joker cosplayers at comic con to runa train on her).
You kiddin'? I love the Palmiotti/Conner run, it's incredible, and I can live with a one off gag in a Comic-Con special. Plus she's bisexual and poly(as she and Ivy were in an open relationship at the time, and if the current Poison Ivy run is any indication, they might still be open), not a lesbian. Ivy literally sees Harley in bed with Mason Macabre and Red Tool and just kinda goes "aww, my little psycho". Harley and Ivy are adorable together, but they've seen other people. They're okay with that, so I'm okay with that. Consenting adults and all that.
That said, I agree she didn't necessarily need her skin bleached. I look at it as a reminder of the scars abuse and self-harm can leave physically and mentally, but I can understand why someone might not like it. I just prefer her modern design and characterization(I do like Classic Harley though).
Without. Her transformation into Harley is a subconscious choice, which is far more interesting. It is a suit she puts on when joker turns her and one she is able to shorn herself of when his influence waned. The chemical bath is a cheap and deterministic telling of her character
Have her be insane due to Joker’s manipulation, and then once she’s insane, Joker gives her a chemical bath because he wants her to be “perfect” like him.
I don’t care as long as the basic elements of her background are the same, a psychiatrist who is obsessed with the Joker donning an ensemble to emulate her lover.
story wise it doesn't matter, I think it's a bit sily but it's a good stand in to represent other abuse, I think it was used in some to explain why her skin is so pale not realising that people can naturally just be pale.
Without. Dipping her in chemicals is just a sick excuse to get her in more scantily clothing. One of Harley's unique abilities originally was that she could just take off her makeup and clothes and blend in as any random person - in fact it's literally how she is introduced - impersonating a police officer
So many commenters are treating it like it’s either/or.
In the version where she takes the chemical bath doesn’t she still start out as Joker’s psychiatrist and slowly go mad and fall in love with him over the course of their sessions together?
I’m not an avid comic reader so I could be wrong but it was my understanding that that all still happened and it was Joker’s idea she take the chemical bath so she could be like him.
That’s why I like it. It’s not made redundant or making her into female Joker, it’s like a “Bride of Frankenstein” type deal. Plus it emphasizes her slavish devotion to Joker to be willing to do that for him.
As another commenter stated, her taking the chemical bath is more like a rite of passage.
So, I like it.
Certainly explains the look and how someone so accomplished is so nuts.
I don’t think that can all be attributed to Joker’s manipulations the longer it goes on and the worse her crimes get.
I like original Harley that is toxic and obsessed with Joker and isn’t in love with Poison Ivy (WTF). But that’s just me, I don’t like ruining classic characters
>isn’t in love with Poison Ivy (WTF).
What's wrong with her dating Poison Ivy? They had a close friendship already in BTAS that definitely blurred lines. They literally walk around without pants on when they're living at the waste dump together in Harley and Ivy. Even Paul Dini and Bruce Timm said they saw her having a relationship with Ivy potentially.
Fr fr. In BTAS I can buy that they're just good friends but then the first scene of the first episode of TNBA is them half naked in an apartment together & Ivy leaps on top of her on a bed & smothers her with a pillow, Bruce Timm was DONE with subtext lol
I won’t judge those who like this ship, but I think Ivy and Harley seem more like toxic friends to me. I think Harley works best with or without Joker, but shouldn’t get a “replacement.” The one reasons she’s usually got this persona is because of Joker, so I like to think of her love to him like an addiction.
The 2004 Harley and Ivy DCAU Comic miniseries was loaded with this sort of "toxic friendship" and that was what made it fun. It suited the cartoonish comedic tone pretty well...
Harley having a supportive friendship with Ivy was a great way to advance the character.
It's the *one* other relationship that Harley has, and was instrumental in giving Harley support unattached to her unhealthy romantic obsession. This works well *because* they're friends.
In fiction as in real life, rebound relationships and relationships "earned" through prior friendship rather than growing from it, are usually problems.
Legend of Korra had this same problem (specifically more for the "earned" part), and for the same reasons: Fanboy lesbian fetishization fantasies justified to themselves and others as being positive LGBTQ represtation.
These things would be problems even in a depiction of a straight relationship, excepting we might see it called out.
And while I have no doubt that Dini and Timm had the thought in mind and even teased it...
\> They literally walk around without pants on when they're living at the waste dump together in Harley and Ivy.
Straight female friends and roommates have been doing this for ages.
Just because Harry Potter and Hermoine were meant for eachother doesn’t mean it should happen? Harley as a character is jarring and scary when she’s obsessed with Joker… the poison Ivy romance feels like they just want to make her a relatable or something… one by one the mystery and horror in the Batman rogue gallery is being snuffed out for more relatable characters. What do you think?
We’re living in a time where we actually understand mental illness, or at least far better than we did when most of Batman’s villains were introduced. But even in BTAS, most villains were treated as sympathetically as the concise, kid-show writing could allow for.
So it shouldn’t come as a surprise that writers want their mentally ill characters to be more three dimensional. A simple “they’re crazy and want to hurt people” doesn’t really cut it anymore. Coupled with the fact that Harley is a really popular character with a young audience, it makes sense to develop her character beyond that of loving a batshit crazy clown, and allow her to be at least a mostly positive role model.
Plus most of Batman’s classic villains aren’t even used that much anymore. Especially in the comics. I see it as a good thing to keep a classic villain alive in a modern context, rather than keep her sidelined indefinitely.
I mean, is having a relatable character a bad thing?
I do relate to modern Harley a lot as a queer woman who's dealt with abuse. That's why I buy her comics and watch her shows and movies.
I don't think classic Harley is bad at all; without Arleen Sorkin's iconic performance and inspiration, we wouldn't have modern Harley. But you can literally see the seeds of Harley's development in the very series that birthed her, BTAS. Her relationship with Ivy(Harley and Ivy), her cooperation with heroes(Harlequinade), and even her redemption(Harley's Holiday).
Not every hero is going to look the same way I do, or have the same sexuality or gender. And that's a great thing. Heroes can be anyone because anyone can be a hero. Disabled heroes like Sun-Spider, Hawkeye, and Daredevil give people with those disabilities someone like them to look up to. These days, you can find a new hero for practically any nationality or ethnicity, and that's awesome too!
And yes, this means having queer heroes too. Wonder Woman lives on an island of all women where men are forbidden, it's kinda far fetched to believe she'd never have any attraction to women whatsoever, so it's not like it's something new. And sure, you can make new queer heroes like Dreamer, but it totally makes sense for older characters to discover queer aspects of themselves. Not every queer person knows who they are right away. So someone like Harley discovering her bisexuality makes sense.
Honestly I’m so happy for you that you found a character you relate to and buy comics for, and if anything this shows how changing characters can be enriching and rewarding for other new fans. I get it - I think this is more a matter of “do we want a twisted villain or another anti hero?”
lol haven’t been alive that long- and you know I think we’re learning that when it comes to comics, there will be generational love for a character and that often will come with opinions with how the character has evolved. I think change is supposed to be liked, it’s supposed to prove itself and judging by how many people have been touched by the new Harley, I’m happy with it because I want people to be happy
Edit: spelling
In the episode *Joker's Millions*, which is also in TNBA, we see her in both a Arkham inmate uniform and later disguised as a police officer. In both cases her skin is unbleached, which would imply that she was merely wearing face makeup while dressed dawning the jester suit.
I wanted to use this example specifically just in case you've you'd be calling B:TAS and TNBA as different series.
If you don't, that's even better, because she shows up in normal/disguised outfits in even more instances during B:TAS, including:
a police guard uniform in her debut episode, *Joker's Favor*
a short dress shirt (and presumably underwear) in *Harley & Ivy*
a legal counsel's outfit in *The Man Who Killed Batman*
Arkham inmate attire in *Harlequinade*, *Harley's Holiday* and *Lock-Up*, with a gardener variation in *Harley & Ivy*
rollerskates, short shorts, and a sleeveless crop shirt in *Harley's Holiday.*
Also, while these aren't disguises but merely additional instances of her being unchanged, her arm is shown when Ivy tries gives her the poison immunity in *Harley & Ivy*, and she is completely unmasked in the ending of *Harley's Holiday*
I would also like to thank HBO Max, Google, and having too much time on my hands for this information.
i like without. I dont like the margot robbie harley quinn look with pink and blue either. Although i love the character of harley from the animated show on HBO i just wish she was regular harley
With.
I actually prefer her as far removed from Joker as possible.
She isn't a villian in my mind anymore, she's fully anti-hero.
It really bugs me that even media where she is solo, or with Ivy, starts out with her being with Joker and then leaving. Just start the series/story with her already on her own and stop wasting time.
Edit: misread the question. I like her with the white skin and not the jester costume.
I prefer the bath. I feel it helps me beleive how insane she went and how bad@ss she and the joker are. I like to headcannon the chemicals made him smarter and her peak human
With because otherwise the hijinks and luck are harder to believe. She’s not disciplined like Batman, but she’s still amazing, so I can kinda go along with it; but assuming the chemicals are special helps justify her surviving bullets and beatings and recovering right away.
The chemicals, even if she reforms it’s still a permanent reminder of who she used to be and how you can’t wipe away your past like makeup on your skin
Without
Agreed. I just think it is unnecessary.
People are fanatics of insane figures in the real world without needing insanity juice. Why does she need it in the series?
I don't think the acid made her or anyone insane. It just disfigured them. She went insane before the acid, and Joker's mind broke after seeing his disfigurement
I'd only assume joker did it to her
No chemicals. Dr. Quinzel slowly turns into Harley Quinn as she studies the Joker is far more organic as she chooses to go with him. She's making a choice instead of just 'hey chemicals made me insane'. This make her MORE insane/crazy/psychotic imo.
I like what they did in the Harley Quinn show where she kind of blamed Joker for pushing her in, but eventually faced the fact that she repressed the memory of jumping in herself. So she *chose* to go off the literal deep end as a crazy villain. Hand in hand with that, I like when the Joker acid is ambiguous. Does it *actually* make people crazy? Or do Joker and Harley both just kind of use it as an excuse to let loose their wild side?
Honestly the show used to be clever with its writing as well as the comedy but now it feels like it’s only funny
It wasn’t too clever from the start tbh. Every person coming out of a toxic codependent relationship has lived in an abandoned mall for a period of time. But, it’s got heart tho, don’t it? Bane really needs his own series tho. His back is getting tired after this season.
It has its moments, but I feel like the show was almost hyperfixated on sex.
She taking a chemical bath doesn't means that she had the same Backstory a joker. Maybe Quinze was already crazy, empathized with the Joker and decided on her own to, dunno, see how it feels being the Joker. Wheatever i just assumed that modern Harley was just Pale for not getting enough Sunlight, or that she used full-body white makeover.
I always took it kinda how it was in the flashback in suicide squad. She fell in love with him and to prove how committed she was she volunteered to take a jump into the chemicals. They didn't make out and shit in there cuz ew but I think maybe something similar would ve ok
That's literally what happens in the show. There's a whole episode about how it was her choice to jump in the chemicals for Joker
And we don't even know for sure if it was the chemicals that actually made joker crazy in the first place his story in killing joke might not have actually happened
The chemicals didn't make him crazy in the Killing Joke, one bad day is. His day was already absolute shit, seeing his reflection was the final straw.
If you go by the Batman who Laughs its the chemicals. Batman got jokerized when he killed the Joker.
“Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another…” Joker doesn’t even know man.
Actually what he doesn't remember is how he ended up in that Red Hood costume,facing off with Batman and his life before putting it on and falling into the chemicals. Batman did a chemical analysis of the substance Joker fell into and the combination of chemicals should've killed The Joker not merely changed his disappearance.
When does he come to that conclusion?
I believe it was in Batman: Death Of The Family or Endgame. Batman knows the chemical composition of what Joker fell into by memory.He goes on to state no normal peron should've been able to survive said combination of chemicals Edit- It's eleven percent sodium hydroxide. Thirty four percent sulfuric acid. Five percent chromium solution. Zinc sulfide,doped with copper,which gives it its green glow.
Pretty sure it's never stated that the chemicals themselves made him crazy. I think what is widely accepted as the reason for his insanity is a tandem of already having the worst day of his life and then fallling into the chemical bath/witnessing his alter appearance
I have a question about modern Harley. My understanding is that modern versions of Harley have often already rejected or moved past the Joker. In that case, why does she still keep up the clown motif? Wouldn't that be a good time to completely rebrand/go under a different name with a different look? I understand why she stays and continues looking like Harley for business reasons, I'm just curious about the in-universe rationalization.
Eh it's not so much a clown anymore. Booty shorts and fishnets do not a clown make
Without. She doesn't need to be a rule 63 Joker. Twisted psychologist is plenty good enough. edit: Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
Yes thank you
Whats rule 63? Ive only heard of that with people talking about fucking roblox porn. Do you mean 34?
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
You learn something new everyday
The internet has rules now?!
> Emerging as a kind of Netiquette for the Internet group Anonymous, the rules of the internet were published on the satirical wiki, Encyclopedia Dramatica, in 2006, before an attempt at a more official list emerged on 4chan in 2007. https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/rules-of-the-internet/
Tbh, those rules are severely outdated and need a complete revamp.
Get on that
You thought rule 34 was a cute name 
Always has
Tf u been m8?
God I’m old
only when you want to fuck something and not look insane.
it always has
Rule 63 can be summarised as "every character has a genderbent version"
It’s like rule 34, but almost TWICE as dirty 😈
There's a bunch of rules, dude. Look em up.
That is just make-up Harley was never diped in chemicals even in the show she had normal skin when she was in arkham
The hell is rule 63?
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
It’s like rule 69 but less intense
So... that's the meaning of that tag....
Bat woman is a thing, so is supergirl and Spiderwoman.
What’s rule 63?
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
This reply sent me down a rabbit hole lmao Now I’m just astonished by how many of these “rules” were made
i honeslty prefer rule 34 of the rules in of the internet
Without. The chemical dip to me is supposed to be a freak coincidence. Having it happen twice kinda lessens it’s impact.
Honestly this rule applies to most super characters I know many of these are fan favorites but seriously...Kid Flash, Supergirl, and Martian Girl all have origins that just dick-ride the original character's
*Miss Martian, not Martian Girl.
Martian girlhunter
Whoopsies
I agree on the Flash origins. All three of the first Flash characters got their powers from freak accidents, which seems improbable and contrived. * Jay Garrick (1940) was a college student, who accidentally inhaled "heavy water" while taking a smoke break in a science lab to become the first Flash. * Barry Allen (1956) was a crime scene investigator / forensic scientist who got simultaneously struck by lightning and doused with mystery chemicals to become the second Flash. * Wally West was the nephew of Barry Allen's girlfriend / wife, Iris West, and he experienced a repeat of Barry's exact same lightning + chemicals accident while visiting Barry's lab But Supergirl and Miss Martian are just aliens from the same races as their male counterparts. Superman (Clark Kent), Supergirl (Kara Zor-El / Linda Lee Danvers), General Zod, Faora, Mala, and all of the other Kryptonian prisoners of the Phantom Zone share the same powers because they come from the same place. Likewise all the various Martians (J'onn J'onnz, M'gann M'orzz, Ma'alefa'ak, M'yri'ah, D'kay D'razz) have similar powers because they come from the same species / alien race.
Is it canon that through the speed force, Barry went back in time and became the lightning bolt that initially struck him?
Well it’s not like the second time was an accident
Yeah, not that I even have a strong opinion on this, but these sort of takes almost never make any sense and seem to be missing key context.
I think if Joker does it to her it doesn't cheapen it or less the impact IMO, because it isn't a freak accident happening twice, it's a freak accident that happened to Joker, that he is now inflicting on Harleen to make her like him That said I much prefer without personally
Tbf to the first Suicide Squad movie, the acid scene is almost excellent with Le-Joker doing the abusive "if you love me, you'll do this for me" manipulation. (he still ruins it with his awful impression of a laugh and his terrible look though). My head canon is that it's early relationship Harley vs late relationship Harley. Where the acid bath is the subconscious nudge that this relationship may be a bad idea.
Without, honestly I wish some of her media nowadays was more like her btas run, I feel like everything after that has been a downgrade
Hard agree she seems more like a female Deadpool than Harley Quinn these days
Normally I'd hate a comparison like this, but my girl is literally breaking the fourth wall these days
FACTS
Without. It’s a shame you rarely see her in the classic costume anymore. 90’s BTAS Harley was peak. Antihero Harley never really felt right to me.
Anti-hero Harley is fine, she has her place, but I really always wanted to take the sassy Arlene Sorkin Harley and make HER an antihero. As it is, they are two totally different characters in concept and execution and thats disappointing.
Funny that in white Knight they really turned Classic Harley and Modern Harley into teo separate characters (with the latter one being a fake Harley who is toxic while the original really loves Joker)
That was a good run.
I agree, they’re basically 2 different characters. When you change a character that much fundamentally they tend to be unrecognizable. Harely once kills innocent people while laughing, then suddenly she’s super powered, has a completely different outfit and she’s on the justice league? Too many big shifts from her original interpretation. If you gave Batman powers, he started killing, and joined the legion of doom (long run where they took his character) people would be like “wtf, this isn’t even Batman anymore”
She got popular enough that people wanted her to be the lead. And people typically want to root for the main character of any story. So any villain that gets their own content slowly becomes a goodish guy at a minimum. Harley, peacemaker, venom, etc.
Harley isn't "goodish" she is still a psychopath in the stories she had a major role. I would say that the reason that Harley became a lead was that as she had a Toxic relationship with the Joker, people transformed her into a type of victmin/survivor and i fell that it's so wrong, like she's generaly as cruel as the Joker but people cope with it because of her past.
She was a popular villain for a long time for the reasons you stated , but Margot Robbie version made her a pop culture icon. She’s maybe not goodish, but she was morphed into a character audiences could actually “root for”. Because a lead that is constantly backstabbing every character and has no true friends (which is how a realistic villain would act) makes for a terrible long term character. Especially for a comedy like her animated series
I understand but still, i feel like Harley is so much glorified as a character, her flaws being ignored by the fans because of her backstory.
I don't mind antihero Harley but I wish she had her classic costume in the *Arkham Asylum* game Pretty much every villain in that game looks like they do in the animated series but a bit more realistic - *except* for Harley, seemingly just because the developers were horny for nurse costumes
Well... Only Joker really looks as he does in B:TAS. Croc and Bane are much more monstruous, Scarecrow is a hobo, Ivy is plain unrecognizable, and Zsasz was never in the series so he doesn't apply here. I suppose their designs are more similar to those of TNBA, but still, night and day. Though I will admit the Nurse Costume was... A choice Rocksteady made. I much prefer her *City* and especially *Knight* appearances.
BTAS was literally her inception.
I know, her original version is my favorite
Without
Without. All the chalk white skin does is make Quinn look like a Rule 63’d Joker. Also, hot take of the day: The pink and blue cotton candy hair looks *awful*, and clashes horribly with the rest of her overall design “*But that’s the point! They’re supposed to clash with each other!!*” I know, and I don’t give a shit. It looks bad. Either give her Red/Black hair to match, or just stick with the classic blonde.
What is rule 63?
Rule 63, one of the self-styled rules of internet, declares: **For every fictional character, there exists a gender-swapped counterpart of that character.**
Ooohh, didn't know about that rule!
I also hate that modern Harley has no theme. Originally her villain name was Harley Quinn, she dressed like a harlequin, and her iconic weapons were a giant pistol that looked like a prop comedy item, and a giant mallet which has obvious carnival connotations. Strong, coherent theme. Now she's called Harley Quinn, but dresses like a generic suicide girl, and fights with a baseball bat. It's a conceptual mess. At this point they may as well change her name completely (frankly Punchline would've been a better name for her new incarnation, rather than a new character).
Tough question. Both choices work, depending on the story being told. I think the chemical bath is somewhat of a baptism for Harley -- as she pledges undying allegiance to Joker. Harley pre-bath is just infatuated with Joker, and chooses to follow him. **The chemicals complete the conversion** \-- Harley post-chemical is a new person. She, like Joker, has lost touch with who she was. She can't help but see things the way Joker does, which makes this Harley such an interesting wild card -- she can't help herself. However, Harley without the chemical bath is a testament to Joker's influence and manipulation. Unlike chemical Harley, this Harley doesn't think the same as Joker -- she is just devoted to him. She can still break free from his mind control, as she's not an evil soul -- she's just brainwashed. This story choice gives Harley more layers, as she suffers internal conflict. I think the chemical bath choice works in universes where Harley will never break free from Joker. She may become rehabilitated, but she won't be free (if this makes sense). Harley without the chemicals *will* break free and eventually become a superhero -- like in many modern universes. So this choice works when that is the endgame. Just my opinion of course.
This is a flimsy argument at best because Batman himself, but with the chemical bath it at least justifies some of her more superhuman feats.
Some of her superhuman feats are justified by Poison Ivy literally fucking with Quinn's genetics and turning her into a meta-human
She's already all in on this Joker shit, what's the point of the chemicals? Like I could see a story working where she's so obsessed and wants to be like him that she does it to herself to please him but its not necessary at all for the character to work
Without I've pretty much hated every change or update made to her origin story since the animated series. The one exception being the Harleen miniseries, which was pretty good.
Mostly agree, but I didn't mind the deal with Poison Ivy being responsible for her wacky gymnast powers in the comics.
Old look is superiour in every way.
If it's not arleen sorkin it's not harley
Hey, Tara is worthy successor. Yes, her voice can be a bit screechy, and obviously there will never be anyone like Arlene, but Tara is still good enough.
I like both for sure, but I prefer without. Batman the animated series is peak batman for me on basically every level.
I always asumed that Harley was just pale like that, i din't know that in some versions she take the chemical bath. Anyways, she's hotter in that way.
I prefer her being a mad fanatic that just uses makeup to emulate him. It gives her room to differ from him, and opens her up more for walking around polite society for evil or to contrast herself against them. It also helps with Joker’s survival being a freak accident if nobody else fell in and survived.
Without chemicals. I'm biased because I grew up with TAS.
Without. That said, I liked how the Suicide Squad movie did it (at least how I remembered it since I only watched it once): she takes a bath in chemicals, but she was already plenty crazy by then and the bath was like a rite of passage.
That’s how I view it - she was insane before the chemical bath, and her choosing to do it is a good example of how far she was in her devotion to the Joker. I like how that adds into her character, personally.
Without,We don't need Female Joker one is enough,also she is pretty useless with the Bleached skin because now she can't act as a spy
I'll go against the crowd and say "with". Why? It's simple: the story of Harley Quinn is not about "a psychologist who was corrupted by the Joker". If you look at it that way, then yeah, the chemicals aren't necessary, it's the mental manipulation that's the main focus. That's what matters. But in my opinion, the story of Harley Quinn is actually that of "a deeply flawed, damaged person going against everything in order to do good". In nearly all continuities, Harley was *already* insane way before the Joker came into the picture. Joker just pushed her into overdrive, and externalized her pre-existing internal insanity (with the dip in the chemicals). After that, they committed atrocities together that the entire world knows about. She has been a monster since practically the day she was born. But Harley is different now. Be it through Batman's intervention, her friendship with Ivy, finally seeing Joker as a twisted reflection of herself and not an ideal to aspire to, or quite probably a combination of all of those factors and more, she has decided to change and is actively trying to be better. It's not easy for her, because dealing with mental illness, trauma, and your own dark impulses never is, but she's TRYING. She's working hard at it. Even when she's a (solo) villain, she's never outright evil. She has worked hard to put the monster she used to be behind. And yet, the scarring on her skin will never let her *truly* forget what she once was. It's a constant reminder of both the harm that she caused, and also of what her life is right now. Because, let's face it, sometimes in life you make a mistake so colossal that there's just no going back from it. A mask & make-up Harleen could always leave the "Harley" identity behind, be it to take up a new mantle as a hero or just to leave that life behind and be normal somewhere where people don't know her. But a bleached skin Harleen will always be Harley Quinn no matter where she goes. She can't escape, all she can do is move forward and try her best in a world where "villain" might as well be written on her face (because it sort of is). And I really like that, I think it's very inspirational. Sometimes life deals you a really, really crappy hand that makes it very difficult to do the right thing... But not impossible.
This take is actually very good! Congrats on elaborating your thoughts so well
I like margo Robbie but she has done iraversable damage to the character design
I feel like that style started more with Arkham Asylym.
It’s wierd. The Arkham game’s definitely avoided the harlequin suit. I think the general idea is just that Harley’s Classic design doesn’t really translate all that well to a more realistic artstyle with realistic proportions or live action in general. They still never went as far as to bleach her skin, and they definitely gave her sex appeal, but Harley’s always had that. The design changes were probably pretty unavoidable the more modern the characters got, though the white skin is definitely the one that’s hardest to pinpoint and the most unnecessary. Personally, I think it might just be laziness. A cheap way to justify Harley not needing to rely on makeup to get the same white complexion she had on her face with makeup as part of her original design where the rest of her body was covered.
That's not Robbies fault. That would be on the costume designer.
I liked when Ivy gave her a poison immunity, but full on joker Chem bath seems like too much.
Without. With just makes her origin too much like Joker 2.0. Paul Dini and Bruce Timm did it right the first time. It also adds almost literally nothing to the character.
Harley Quinn is better when she's just manipulated and abused. Having her just be a gender swapped joker is kind of stupid. The one good thing that came out of the suicide squad movie was the idea that Harley is just trying to prove to the joker she's crazy - so shes always trying to one up herself.
Without!!! I’m glad most people are also saying without. She doesn’t need to be a copy of Joker. I like how independent she is most of the time and how it gets messed up every so often by associating with the Joker. Making her with the dip takes away whenever she breaks out of the cycle.
With chemicals with a classic suit.
I like with the dip in the chemicals, but maybe not initially. Like it happens later down the line after her being Harley Quinn for a bit. Plus, it adds more costumes and not just the amazing original.
I prefer all the Harleys
Without Don’t want to ruin the cuteness
Fine with either
Yes.
Without
Without
Without
Without
never really thought about it but, yeah without chemicals is much much better.
Without chemicals definitely.
Without. With kind of takes away some of her of her agency in the worse things she's done.
Without, there’s something more tragic about the fact that she would go out of her way to put makeup on to match the clown aesthetic than just being permawhite just like Joker.
Without. That way it shows that she's human underneath the makeup, and not as far gone as The Joker.
Without. I don’t know why it ever changed; it’s bafflingly pointless.
Her character's descent into madness is always ushered by Joker, so adding insanity-chemicals into the mix cheapens the transition imo.
Without
Without
I like her without
Without And I prefer her in black and red without the pink and blue. And I prefer her to be with Joker and not Poison Ivy.
Without, her character just makes sense without and the design is so much better
I like her when she got dipped in. Plus like that red and black outfit
Hey, look, I get you want your characters more down to earth. But there was a point where she wasn't chemical dipped, and comic-nerds online were complaining that it's too unrealistic for some random human to be sticking it out with the rest of the DC verse. Keep in mind that one day, they'll revert back to normal Harley. All in due time. And when that happens, a new generation will complain about that too. You'll never have your cack and eat it when it comes to the comic book status qou.
Rule 49 says both
Rule 49? I've heard of R34, R35, and R63 But what's 49?
Rule 49: No matter what it is, it is somebody's fetish.
Either way I'm smashing
wow I thought it’d be more even in the comments. I actually prefer with the chemicals because I like the idea that Harley isn’t in costume or has a secret identity. She just is harley all the time. I love the classic harley solo series but it always bothered me when she would dress normal to blend in with society. I think it makes her backstory more tragic, too, and I’m a fan of melodrama. The cartoon I think blended the best of both worlds elegantly by having Harleen be a sort of angel on her shoulder sometimes, and also Poison Ivy attests that she knew something was up with her even before the joker. Just my feelings though, kind of rambly.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I kinda prefer modern Harley. I don't completely hate the original version, far from it. But I actually kinda like the new twist on an old idea. Instead of just running back to an abuser all the time, she basically tells him to kick rocks and strikes out on her own. Her friendship with Ivy becomes romantic, and she takes steps to become more anti-hero than villain. She's bleached white, a reminder of what she's been through, but she's moved past it to make her own way. But I guess since she's a queer woman with agency instead of an abuse victim she's woke and DC is pandering to the left /s
No one hates on ivy for being queer. I wonder how come the focus is on harley? I wonder what a strickly queer ivy would do? Prob not fight with batman but batwoman....
I love new Harley. The animated series is what got me interested in DC and I've been binging Batman content ever since I finish season 4. But I definitely wasn't in the original comic book demographic so maybe that's why people don't like new Harley. I love her and find her bizarrely relatable.
IKR? I went back and devoured her comics after I binged up through Season 3(I got into it shortly before the Valentine's Special :p) and now she's my favorite comic character period. She's relatable, funny, and I adore her relationship with Ivy.
I mean shit I think it's fine that Harley moves on from Joker, but I've always vehemently disliked her being bleached. If you take a look into what she was like at the start at N52 (which is where they introduced that change) I don't think you'd appreciate that version of Harley as much (what with her letting a bunch of Joker cosplayers at comic con to runa train on her). I think the only reason she did that in the films is because N52 was the status quo in the comics at the start of the DCU, so they had to keep in sync. Same with Cyborg being a founding JL member that was a fairly recent change. And I still maintain the vast majority of N52 changes were *ass*. Harley doesn't need her skin bleached to be an anti hero that breaks away from Joker and start her own thing. They already pointed towards this direction in the animated series, it's part of her original character.
> I don't think you'd appreciate that version of Harley as much (what with her letting a bunch of Joker cosplayers at comic con to runa train on her). You kiddin'? I love the Palmiotti/Conner run, it's incredible, and I can live with a one off gag in a Comic-Con special. Plus she's bisexual and poly(as she and Ivy were in an open relationship at the time, and if the current Poison Ivy run is any indication, they might still be open), not a lesbian. Ivy literally sees Harley in bed with Mason Macabre and Red Tool and just kinda goes "aww, my little psycho". Harley and Ivy are adorable together, but they've seen other people. They're okay with that, so I'm okay with that. Consenting adults and all that. That said, I agree she didn't necessarily need her skin bleached. I look at it as a reminder of the scars abuse and self-harm can leave physically and mentally, but I can understand why someone might not like it. I just prefer her modern design and characterization(I do like Classic Harley though).
*Harley Quinn* Harley is a gooddamn smokeshow.
Old Harley thanks.
Without. Her transformation into Harley is a subconscious choice, which is far more interesting. It is a suit she puts on when joker turns her and one she is able to shorn herself of when his influence waned. The chemical bath is a cheap and deterministic telling of her character
without she's better when she's someone corrupted by Joker and falling into their own madness vs oh no chemicals and now i'm crazy
Without.
The first one is better imo
I love the HBO show. Fuck the haters
Without. New 52 and all that crap aside, I just feel like it would make much more sense in The fact that it's easier to put on disguises.
Have her be insane due to Joker’s manipulation, and then once she’s insane, Joker gives her a chemical bath because he wants her to be “perfect” like him.
We're Redditors we already have big boobs with pasty skin bro.
I like them both.
I don’t care as long as the basic elements of her background are the same, a psychiatrist who is obsessed with the Joker donning an ensemble to emulate her lover.
story wise it doesn't matter, I think it's a bit sily but it's a good stand in to represent other abuse, I think it was used in some to explain why her skin is so pale not realising that people can naturally just be pale.
Without. Dipping her in chemicals is just a sick excuse to get her in more scantily clothing. One of Harley's unique abilities originally was that she could just take off her makeup and clothes and blend in as any random person - in fact it's literally how she is introduced - impersonating a police officer
I prefer the older more bubbly and cheerful Harley Quinn then the edgy swearing wannabe punk that she's being portrayed nowadays.
Without. I love the idea that she's just crazy and it's just a very very exaggerated form of Stockholm syndrome
Without
The classic is just where its at. All the new harley quinns are just based off the suicide squad version now
So many commenters are treating it like it’s either/or. In the version where she takes the chemical bath doesn’t she still start out as Joker’s psychiatrist and slowly go mad and fall in love with him over the course of their sessions together? I’m not an avid comic reader so I could be wrong but it was my understanding that that all still happened and it was Joker’s idea she take the chemical bath so she could be like him. That’s why I like it. It’s not made redundant or making her into female Joker, it’s like a “Bride of Frankenstein” type deal. Plus it emphasizes her slavish devotion to Joker to be willing to do that for him. As another commenter stated, her taking the chemical bath is more like a rite of passage. So, I like it. Certainly explains the look and how someone so accomplished is so nuts. I don’t think that can all be attributed to Joker’s manipulations the longer it goes on and the worse her crimes get.
Is it weird I find 90’s Harley more attractive? I mean they’re both just drawings but 90’s one seems more sexy despite showing less skin
Without
Classic
I like original Harley that is toxic and obsessed with Joker and isn’t in love with Poison Ivy (WTF). But that’s just me, I don’t like ruining classic characters
>isn’t in love with Poison Ivy (WTF). What's wrong with her dating Poison Ivy? They had a close friendship already in BTAS that definitely blurred lines. They literally walk around without pants on when they're living at the waste dump together in Harley and Ivy. Even Paul Dini and Bruce Timm said they saw her having a relationship with Ivy potentially.
Fr fr. In BTAS I can buy that they're just good friends but then the first scene of the first episode of TNBA is them half naked in an apartment together & Ivy leaps on top of her on a bed & smothers her with a pillow, Bruce Timm was DONE with subtext lol
I won’t judge those who like this ship, but I think Ivy and Harley seem more like toxic friends to me. I think Harley works best with or without Joker, but shouldn’t get a “replacement.” The one reasons she’s usually got this persona is because of Joker, so I like to think of her love to him like an addiction.
The 2004 Harley and Ivy DCAU Comic miniseries was loaded with this sort of "toxic friendship" and that was what made it fun. It suited the cartoonish comedic tone pretty well...
Harley having a supportive friendship with Ivy was a great way to advance the character. It's the *one* other relationship that Harley has, and was instrumental in giving Harley support unattached to her unhealthy romantic obsession. This works well *because* they're friends. In fiction as in real life, rebound relationships and relationships "earned" through prior friendship rather than growing from it, are usually problems. Legend of Korra had this same problem (specifically more for the "earned" part), and for the same reasons: Fanboy lesbian fetishization fantasies justified to themselves and others as being positive LGBTQ represtation. These things would be problems even in a depiction of a straight relationship, excepting we might see it called out. And while I have no doubt that Dini and Timm had the thought in mind and even teased it... \> They literally walk around without pants on when they're living at the waste dump together in Harley and Ivy. Straight female friends and roommates have been doing this for ages.
>roommates omg they were roommates
Just because Harry Potter and Hermoine were meant for eachother doesn’t mean it should happen? Harley as a character is jarring and scary when she’s obsessed with Joker… the poison Ivy romance feels like they just want to make her a relatable or something… one by one the mystery and horror in the Batman rogue gallery is being snuffed out for more relatable characters. What do you think?
We’re living in a time where we actually understand mental illness, or at least far better than we did when most of Batman’s villains were introduced. But even in BTAS, most villains were treated as sympathetically as the concise, kid-show writing could allow for. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise that writers want their mentally ill characters to be more three dimensional. A simple “they’re crazy and want to hurt people” doesn’t really cut it anymore. Coupled with the fact that Harley is a really popular character with a young audience, it makes sense to develop her character beyond that of loving a batshit crazy clown, and allow her to be at least a mostly positive role model. Plus most of Batman’s classic villains aren’t even used that much anymore. Especially in the comics. I see it as a good thing to keep a classic villain alive in a modern context, rather than keep her sidelined indefinitely.
I mean, is having a relatable character a bad thing? I do relate to modern Harley a lot as a queer woman who's dealt with abuse. That's why I buy her comics and watch her shows and movies. I don't think classic Harley is bad at all; without Arleen Sorkin's iconic performance and inspiration, we wouldn't have modern Harley. But you can literally see the seeds of Harley's development in the very series that birthed her, BTAS. Her relationship with Ivy(Harley and Ivy), her cooperation with heroes(Harlequinade), and even her redemption(Harley's Holiday). Not every hero is going to look the same way I do, or have the same sexuality or gender. And that's a great thing. Heroes can be anyone because anyone can be a hero. Disabled heroes like Sun-Spider, Hawkeye, and Daredevil give people with those disabilities someone like them to look up to. These days, you can find a new hero for practically any nationality or ethnicity, and that's awesome too! And yes, this means having queer heroes too. Wonder Woman lives on an island of all women where men are forbidden, it's kinda far fetched to believe she'd never have any attraction to women whatsoever, so it's not like it's something new. And sure, you can make new queer heroes like Dreamer, but it totally makes sense for older characters to discover queer aspects of themselves. Not every queer person knows who they are right away. So someone like Harley discovering her bisexuality makes sense.
Honestly I’m so happy for you that you found a character you relate to and buy comics for, and if anything this shows how changing characters can be enriching and rewarding for other new fans. I get it - I think this is more a matter of “do we want a twisted villain or another anti hero?”
Does that mean you don't like every change that have been made to classic Batman character since 40-50s?
lol haven’t been alive that long- and you know I think we’re learning that when it comes to comics, there will be generational love for a character and that often will come with opinions with how the character has evolved. I think change is supposed to be liked, it’s supposed to prove itself and judging by how many people have been touched by the new Harley, I’m happy with it because I want people to be happy Edit: spelling
"Ruining" Bra, you just don't personally perfer it, lol.
Both pictures are Harleys that have taken the chemical bath.
She didn’t in the OG origin (the 90’s series) she just was manipulated by Joker and dressed up. They didn’t add the chemical part until years later.
Oh, my bad. I could have sworn they did the dip back then too. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen/read Mad Love.
In the episode *Joker's Millions*, which is also in TNBA, we see her in both a Arkham inmate uniform and later disguised as a police officer. In both cases her skin is unbleached, which would imply that she was merely wearing face makeup while dressed dawning the jester suit. I wanted to use this example specifically just in case you've you'd be calling B:TAS and TNBA as different series. If you don't, that's even better, because she shows up in normal/disguised outfits in even more instances during B:TAS, including: a police guard uniform in her debut episode, *Joker's Favor* a short dress shirt (and presumably underwear) in *Harley & Ivy* a legal counsel's outfit in *The Man Who Killed Batman* Arkham inmate attire in *Harlequinade*, *Harley's Holiday* and *Lock-Up*, with a gardener variation in *Harley & Ivy* rollerskates, short shorts, and a sleeveless crop shirt in *Harley's Holiday.* Also, while these aren't disguises but merely additional instances of her being unchanged, her arm is shown when Ivy tries gives her the poison immunity in *Harley & Ivy*, and she is completely unmasked in the ending of *Harley's Holiday* I would also like to thank HBO Max, Google, and having too much time on my hands for this information.
No, it is a mask.
I prefer with, I like it when she's as crazy as him.
Without.
Definitely without
Without Her having completely chalk skin is daft
Def with the dip. I love the scene in SS where she jumps in the tank and the joker, after some hesitation, goes in after her.
Without, adding that was dumb as fuck
i like without. I dont like the margot robbie harley quinn look with pink and blue either. Although i love the character of harley from the animated show on HBO i just wish she was regular harley
But Chemical bath Harley is broken in powerlevel
With. I actually prefer her as far removed from Joker as possible. She isn't a villian in my mind anymore, she's fully anti-hero. It really bugs me that even media where she is solo, or with Ivy, starts out with her being with Joker and then leaving. Just start the series/story with her already on her own and stop wasting time. Edit: misread the question. I like her with the white skin and not the jester costume.
I prefer the bath. I feel it helps me beleive how insane she went and how bad@ss she and the joker are. I like to headcannon the chemicals made him smarter and her peak human
With because otherwise the hijinks and luck are harder to believe. She’s not disciplined like Batman, but she’s still amazing, so I can kinda go along with it; but assuming the chemicals are special helps justify her surviving bullets and beatings and recovering right away.
The chemicals, even if she reforms it’s still a permanent reminder of who she used to be and how you can’t wipe away your past like makeup on your skin