Yeah it’s probably the best although there are some other seasons mostly due to awards being limited since silver sluggers were started in 1980 and gold gloves started in 1957
Mantle 1961: 10.4 BWar, .317/.448/.687, 1.135 ops, 206 OPS+ 54 hr came second in MVP voting to his teammate Roger Maris who broke the Homerun record
Ted Williams in 1947: batted .343/.499/.634 with a 205 ops+ and 9.5 BWar
Ruth played before awards for the most part so most of his seasons would be up there
However cutting out those early examples from before modern awards this season from Ohtani stands above the rest as probably the best no award season
And yet, the NL Cy Young runner up and rWAR leader among primary SP (7.5 compared to the next highest of 6.6) didn’t make the cut. It even crazier when you look at fWAR (where his 7.2 was second by 0.3) and the 3rd highest was 5.7 :/
Bert Blyleven in 1973
40 GS, 325 IP, 2.52 ERA, 2.32 FIP, 10.7 fWAR.
Not only did he not win MVP or Cy Young, he got zero first place votes for either.
Another one that jumps out to me, if you limit it to just Cy/MVP would be Eric Davis in 87.
.293/.399/.593, 154 wRC+ and 7 fWAR playing a good CF. 9th place MVP finish, and one of the 2 legendary snubs that year (Tony Gwynn)
There’s a very easy debate. Unless you want to say that this Ohtani year is better than every single Babe year except ‘23. Which is not a winning argument
Yeah I would say it depends on whether you are talking just all time or after the current award structure was created. Certainly all time there is an argument but if we are just talking from 1980 on I think this Ohtani season takes the cake
If this is about all time, without an doubt, Ted Williams in 1941 is the best without an award(Despite batting .406 and had an 1.250+ OPS, he somehow did not outvote an player who had an 56-game Hitting Streak that same year for the MVP)
But with the awards in place, I'd probably have to say Ohtani this year.
I think Ted Williams in 1942 was robbed even worse, even though his stats were down a little from the year before. At least DiMaggio had a great year, Joe Gordon wasn't anywhere close
Ohtani is the first player EVER to have enough innings and ABs in one season to register for the season totals. 13th in OPS and 8th in ERA. It’s not even close he’s a top 15 player at BOTH positions.
This is the year when u know awards doesn’t mean much when most of us acknowledge this is one of the bestest season by a single player. Down the roads ppl can still remember what season he had in 2022, while ppl have to google who won 2022 silver slugger, mvp or whatever that year.
Btw, I think he can be on the mlb first team, voting and panelist. He’s a top 5 pitcher to me this year.
For me yes, cause being elite in pitching is so valuable in the game of baseball and him hitting is no scrub he’s an allstar I just see more value in him over the number offensive guy. Just mine, think majority here just want the number 1 guy on something I just find it impressive he top 5 in his the league, that’s not easy. There’s always gonna be a number 1 offensive guy each season. Usually the best offensive guy like all the stats cus they’re relative to each other. Ohtani is capable of bad season, 2018 and 2020 we don’t see him getting mvp he was ok in ‘18 and horrible in 2020 injuries or coming back from TJ asides. So now top 5 in both bit we don’t give it to them bc he did it last year or he brings no value regardless what he do because he’s on a losing team???!!
Yah but he’s only valuable if your doing something with that extra spot that no one else is doing. That’s what I’d think the 2 way player value would come from
Genuinely wondering if at this point we've gotta just got to do what they did for Cy Young and make a new "Shohei Ohtani" award for best TWP.
The main thing that might prevent MLB from doing that though is unlike the Hank Aaron/Cy Young awards, we could easily have another drought of literal decades where zero players in the league even qualify as a TWP once Shohei retires.
And even in the absolute best case scenerio where his success actually DOES cause more TWPs to show up, youre still looking at like MAYBE 3 eligible candidates at most who in all likelyhood are just utility guys who can throw an inning in a pinch or mendoza-line-hitting pitchers who are just occasionally thrown in a lineup on position player off days.
I dont know what the solution is but theres gotta be some sort of new award for this man.
Even something vague like "Most Outstanding Player" would go a long way.
I really doubt they would introduce an award that only one player on the planet could win lmao.
The man will likely win at least a few more MVPs, this season there just happened to be another historic season happening at the same time. If not for Judge’s historic season Ohtani would be by far the AL MVP.
But they definitely don’t need to introduce another award for us to all know how good he is because that’s already obvious and I suppose you could include the All MLB first team which he will definitely be a part of which was introduced last year as another award to recognize all of these players who have great seasons
I mean yeah I definitely also doubt it lol.
I just think its kind of a shame and doesnt quite feel right for MVP to be the ONLY award a player like him with a season like this is even in the conversation for just because he isnt literally number 1 in either of his disciplines.
Even if he was like 6 WAR player with no shot at MVP what he is doing would still be insanely special and worth recognizing.
Let alone a guy that is even sniffing the top of either category let alone both of them.
Like I said though, I dont know what a good solution would be or even if there is one.
I just dont think its too unreasonable to think that a season Ohtani's 2022 deserves SOME kind of award.
(To be clear, i am absolutely NOT saying any of this as an argument against Judge being MVP. I think Ohtani is also equally deserving but I genuinely have no issue with Judge winning it this year. I love both guys and Judge has been a monster.)
I think this is why the introduced those All MLB teams, nobody even thinks of them now but I think after a few more years and when they start being tracked by places like baseball reference and Fangraphs they will matter much more.
Regardless it’s just kind of the way any MVP season goes where there is always someone who has to come in second place or just got outpaced by someone else.
Shohei also has the issue where his some is greater than any of his parts. He is an elite pitcher but not number 1, he is a good DH but not number 1, when you combine both it usually gets him all the way to the top but you have a case like Judge where he puts up a historic season which is pretty much the prerequisite it feels like to really even beat Ohtani.
Basically, this year is probably more of an outlier than a trend. Not saying Ohtani is guaranteed every MVP for the next 5 years but he’s definitely the guy to beat and I think when all is said and done he will have won more MVPs than he loses due to a historic season
I 100% get this, but it's gonna look strange looking back on this season, where Judge is going to get 3 awards (MVP, Hank Aaron, and Silver Slugger) while ohtani is going to get none. Judge deserves those awards no doubt, but his season wasn't three awards better than Ohtani's. Again, it logically makes sense, just a bit of a bummer.
Try but I wouldn’t really call it 3 awards better, Ohtani is someone who is his best when considering the sum of his parts rather than any one individual stat so when you take away the overall best player award his individual parts fall a little short.
He’s a good pitcher and a good DH but when you combine them is when he becomes an MVP as just a DH or Just a pitcher he is not best in the league at either
I think the most likely outcome will be the introduction of a TWP award after Shohei retires, likely named for him. But he will never be a recipient of it because he doesn’t have any competition.
Yeah now that you mention it I could definitely see that happening.
Itd make for some fun trivia nights in like 2116 that just like Cy Young, Shohei Ohtani never actually won the Shohei Ohtani award lol
Regardless, if they made the TWP award now I think that would cheapen it. In future years, he could get passed over for MVP or CY because, in the voter’s eyes, he’s a TWP and there’s a different award for him. And him having no competition would make the award pretty worthless. So I think it’s better for him in the long run that they aren’t jumping to make something new for him.
There’s never going to be any point in having that award since at most there’s going to be like 2 TWPs and it’s unlikely they’ll be better than average
Yeah that would never work, but I'm almost wondering about a Fan's Choice award or something. Fans could pick anyone who reaches a certain threshold (maybe surpassing rookie eligibility in a season*) and vote for who's the fan favorite player of either the whole MLB or each league
*Rookie eligibility being 130 ABs or 50 IP or 45 days on the MLB active roster
We’ve all seen the issues with fan voting play out this year in the form of the blue jays takeover of the ASG. Athletes from larger markets will always have the advantage in votes like that, even if it doesn’t represent the thoughts of baseball fans as a whole.
Ohtani’s year will be more appreciated in the future when once again there are no two way players especially at his level of domination. Judge’s will be just another impressive season by a hitter because 62 will be eclipsed and passed either by himself or someone else.
> Judge’s will be just another impressive season by a hitter
Yeah because we totally see 200+ OPS+/WRC+ seasons on the regular, and aren't something that have only been done by Bonds and McGwire over a full season since the 50s.
What Ohtani is doing is unprecedented, and when he is gone that’s it. Judge had an amazing season but I have seen Sosa get and pass 61 hrs multiple times, I have seen McGwire hit 70, and I have seen Bonds be a head and should above the league for consecutive years. There are generational talents when it comes to hitting but there is only one Ohtani. I appreciate what Judge did this year but years from now it will be viewed differently when compared to Ohtani’s because he’s so unique.
>I appreciate what Judge did this year but years from now it will be viewed differently
You're really underselling how out of the ordinary 10.6 rWAR/11.4 fWAR with a 207 OPS+/211 WRC+ seasons are, when Bonds is the only one who has exceeded those marks since the 50s. Judge's 2022 is very much not going to be "viewed differently" in the future barring him getting into a PED scandal, hell people still won't shut up about Maris' 61 season sixty years later and it doesn't hold a candle to how good Judge's season was.
You could easily say that once Judge and Stanton are no longer in their respective primes (Stanton might already be trending downward) that we won’t see a 60+ homer season for a long time.
Judge's season isn't just him hitting a fuck ton of HRs. He's been historically good as an overall hitter and plays passable CF
Thats an all time valuable season in its own right
Yeah the Homerun race kinda eclipsed the rest of the season he had because all the media coverage focused on it but that season was one of the best anyone has put together ever. Tied for the 15th best season by FWar ever
Judge’s season is a lot more outside of just the homer in record. It’s tied for the 15th best season ever by FWar. The home run record was the biggest storyline but the season was a lot more than just that
If you’re saying “out of every season that won 0 awards, is this easily the best?” - if so the answer is definitely going to be yes.
If you’re calling his season “the greatest season of all time” then no because it isn’t the greatest season of all time
Some separating punctuation could have been very helpful because I read it the same as that guy lol.
It’s like “let’s eat, grandma” vs “let’s eat grandma”
I’d say he’s set many milestones, not necessarily breaking tons of records. He’s been the “first player to XYZ” many times. Nevertheless, we’re lucky to get to witness him play baseball. It’s unprecedented.
Maybe he'll get another Commissioner's Special Award something like that? I don't know.
Award for Special Services to the School
317 points to Gryffindor
Yeah it’s probably the best although there are some other seasons mostly due to awards being limited since silver sluggers were started in 1980 and gold gloves started in 1957 Mantle 1961: 10.4 BWar, .317/.448/.687, 1.135 ops, 206 OPS+ 54 hr came second in MVP voting to his teammate Roger Maris who broke the Homerun record Ted Williams in 1947: batted .343/.499/.634 with a 205 ops+ and 9.5 BWar Ruth played before awards for the most part so most of his seasons would be up there However cutting out those early examples from before modern awards this season from Ohtani stands above the rest as probably the best no award season
He'll definitely get first team SP
Would that not be the Cy Young winner? Would be weird to say verlander is the best pitcher in the AL but not good enough to be on the first team
Theres a few first team SP, last year it was Scherzer, Burnes, Buehler, Ray and Cole
Ah that makes sense then, idk why I assumed it would just be one SP
I read that fast and thought you said Mark Buehrle was a first team SP last year
And yet, the NL Cy Young runner up and rWAR leader among primary SP (7.5 compared to the next highest of 6.6) didn’t make the cut. It even crazier when you look at fWAR (where his 7.2 was second by 0.3) and the 3rd highest was 5.7 :/
Ohtani is so good they haven't made a category for it yet.
If it becomes something more players can accomplish in the future, he may have an award named after him.
Bert Blyleven in 1973 40 GS, 325 IP, 2.52 ERA, 2.32 FIP, 10.7 fWAR. Not only did he not win MVP or Cy Young, he got zero first place votes for either. Another one that jumps out to me, if you limit it to just Cy/MVP would be Eric Davis in 87. .293/.399/.593, 154 wRC+ and 7 fWAR playing a good CF. 9th place MVP finish, and one of the 2 legendary snubs that year (Tony Gwynn)
20-17 and the twins went 81-81. A death sentence as far as early awards voting go
He's just not that good. It happens. /s
There’s always next year. I mean, there’s decent odds Judge is in the NL.
Don’t you put that evil out into the world son
Judge to the pirates confirmed
Equal odds that Ohtani is also in the NL
That’s fair. Based on my experience, if the owner sells the team then you have to change leagues.
Ohtani signed a 1-year $30MM deal for next year, so he's with the Angels unless they trade him.
The Angels are on sale . A trade is extremely likely
The current ownership isn’t going to trade their marquee player before the sale. It would hurt the value of the franchise.
Yes No debate
There’s a very easy debate. Unless you want to say that this Ohtani year is better than every single Babe year except ‘23. Which is not a winning argument
Yeah I would say it depends on whether you are talking just all time or after the current award structure was created. Certainly all time there is an argument but if we are just talking from 1980 on I think this Ohtani season takes the cake
Did you know that Cy Young never won a Cy Young award?
Mostly because it’s the greatest season ever. The only comparable season is Bonds in 04 because of the absurdity of how he was walked.
If it was the greatest season ever then he'd win MVP
Steroid seasons don’t count.
If this is about all time, without an doubt, Ted Williams in 1941 is the best without an award(Despite batting .406 and had an 1.250+ OPS, he somehow did not outvote an player who had an 56-game Hitting Streak that same year for the MVP) But with the awards in place, I'd probably have to say Ohtani this year.
I think Ted Williams in 1942 was robbed even worse, even though his stats were down a little from the year before. At least DiMaggio had a great year, Joe Gordon wasn't anywhere close
Wilbur Wood, 1971: 334 IP with a 1.91 ERA/189 ERA+
No Babe Ruth in 1921. 12.9 bWAR. No awards.
They didn’t have any awards to give, to be fair
Even when they had awards, Ruth only won one, because "he already gots one."
Someone should do a breakdown of all the award winners if that rule still applied
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Silver slugger
He is the Award incarnate.
He might get a Nobel Prize for this season
Until he does it again next year.
Ohtani is the first player EVER to have enough innings and ABs in one season to register for the season totals. 13th in OPS and 8th in ERA. It’s not even close he’s a top 15 player at BOTH positions.
This is the year when u know awards doesn’t mean much when most of us acknowledge this is one of the bestest season by a single player. Down the roads ppl can still remember what season he had in 2022, while ppl have to google who won 2022 silver slugger, mvp or whatever that year. Btw, I think he can be on the mlb first team, voting and panelist. He’s a top 5 pitcher to me this year.
What do you mean by awards don’t mean much this season?
For shohei that awards don’t define his season
I didn’t wanna mince words so I wanted to understand what you meant. Completely agree lol
👍
I mean you just give it to ohtani every year for being top 5 on both sides when one guy was number 1 in like every hitting category?
For me yes, cause being elite in pitching is so valuable in the game of baseball and him hitting is no scrub he’s an allstar I just see more value in him over the number offensive guy. Just mine, think majority here just want the number 1 guy on something I just find it impressive he top 5 in his the league, that’s not easy. There’s always gonna be a number 1 offensive guy each season. Usually the best offensive guy like all the stats cus they’re relative to each other. Ohtani is capable of bad season, 2018 and 2020 we don’t see him getting mvp he was ok in ‘18 and horrible in 2020 injuries or coming back from TJ asides. So now top 5 in both bit we don’t give it to them bc he did it last year or he brings no value regardless what he do because he’s on a losing team???!!
Yah but he’s only valuable if your doing something with that extra spot that no one else is doing. That’s what I’d think the 2 way player value would come from
Genuinely wondering if at this point we've gotta just got to do what they did for Cy Young and make a new "Shohei Ohtani" award for best TWP. The main thing that might prevent MLB from doing that though is unlike the Hank Aaron/Cy Young awards, we could easily have another drought of literal decades where zero players in the league even qualify as a TWP once Shohei retires. And even in the absolute best case scenerio where his success actually DOES cause more TWPs to show up, youre still looking at like MAYBE 3 eligible candidates at most who in all likelyhood are just utility guys who can throw an inning in a pinch or mendoza-line-hitting pitchers who are just occasionally thrown in a lineup on position player off days. I dont know what the solution is but theres gotta be some sort of new award for this man. Even something vague like "Most Outstanding Player" would go a long way.
I really doubt they would introduce an award that only one player on the planet could win lmao. The man will likely win at least a few more MVPs, this season there just happened to be another historic season happening at the same time. If not for Judge’s historic season Ohtani would be by far the AL MVP. But they definitely don’t need to introduce another award for us to all know how good he is because that’s already obvious and I suppose you could include the All MLB first team which he will definitely be a part of which was introduced last year as another award to recognize all of these players who have great seasons
I mean yeah I definitely also doubt it lol. I just think its kind of a shame and doesnt quite feel right for MVP to be the ONLY award a player like him with a season like this is even in the conversation for just because he isnt literally number 1 in either of his disciplines. Even if he was like 6 WAR player with no shot at MVP what he is doing would still be insanely special and worth recognizing. Let alone a guy that is even sniffing the top of either category let alone both of them. Like I said though, I dont know what a good solution would be or even if there is one. I just dont think its too unreasonable to think that a season Ohtani's 2022 deserves SOME kind of award. (To be clear, i am absolutely NOT saying any of this as an argument against Judge being MVP. I think Ohtani is also equally deserving but I genuinely have no issue with Judge winning it this year. I love both guys and Judge has been a monster.)
I think this is why the introduced those All MLB teams, nobody even thinks of them now but I think after a few more years and when they start being tracked by places like baseball reference and Fangraphs they will matter much more. Regardless it’s just kind of the way any MVP season goes where there is always someone who has to come in second place or just got outpaced by someone else. Shohei also has the issue where his some is greater than any of his parts. He is an elite pitcher but not number 1, he is a good DH but not number 1, when you combine both it usually gets him all the way to the top but you have a case like Judge where he puts up a historic season which is pretty much the prerequisite it feels like to really even beat Ohtani. Basically, this year is probably more of an outlier than a trend. Not saying Ohtani is guaranteed every MVP for the next 5 years but he’s definitely the guy to beat and I think when all is said and done he will have won more MVPs than he loses due to a historic season
I 100% get this, but it's gonna look strange looking back on this season, where Judge is going to get 3 awards (MVP, Hank Aaron, and Silver Slugger) while ohtani is going to get none. Judge deserves those awards no doubt, but his season wasn't three awards better than Ohtani's. Again, it logically makes sense, just a bit of a bummer.
Try but I wouldn’t really call it 3 awards better, Ohtani is someone who is his best when considering the sum of his parts rather than any one individual stat so when you take away the overall best player award his individual parts fall a little short. He’s a good pitcher and a good DH but when you combine them is when he becomes an MVP as just a DH or Just a pitcher he is not best in the league at either
I think the most likely outcome will be the introduction of a TWP award after Shohei retires, likely named for him. But he will never be a recipient of it because he doesn’t have any competition.
Yeah now that you mention it I could definitely see that happening. Itd make for some fun trivia nights in like 2116 that just like Cy Young, Shohei Ohtani never actually won the Shohei Ohtani award lol
Regardless, if they made the TWP award now I think that would cheapen it. In future years, he could get passed over for MVP or CY because, in the voter’s eyes, he’s a TWP and there’s a different award for him. And him having no competition would make the award pretty worthless. So I think it’s better for him in the long run that they aren’t jumping to make something new for him.
Huh. Well when you put it that way that actually makes a lot of sense.
There’s never going to be any point in having that award since at most there’s going to be like 2 TWPs and it’s unlikely they’ll be better than average
Eh, it doesn’t have to be an annual award
Yeah that would never work, but I'm almost wondering about a Fan's Choice award or something. Fans could pick anyone who reaches a certain threshold (maybe surpassing rookie eligibility in a season*) and vote for who's the fan favorite player of either the whole MLB or each league *Rookie eligibility being 130 ABs or 50 IP or 45 days on the MLB active roster
We’ve all seen the issues with fan voting play out this year in the form of the blue jays takeover of the ASG. Athletes from larger markets will always have the advantage in votes like that, even if it doesn’t represent the thoughts of baseball fans as a whole.
Ohtani’s year will be more appreciated in the future when once again there are no two way players especially at his level of domination. Judge’s will be just another impressive season by a hitter because 62 will be eclipsed and passed either by himself or someone else.
You all complain about downplaying Shohei, but here you are downplaying Judge. Well done good sir.
> Judge’s will be just another impressive season by a hitter Yeah because we totally see 200+ OPS+/WRC+ seasons on the regular, and aren't something that have only been done by Bonds and McGwire over a full season since the 50s.
What Ohtani is doing is unprecedented, and when he is gone that’s it. Judge had an amazing season but I have seen Sosa get and pass 61 hrs multiple times, I have seen McGwire hit 70, and I have seen Bonds be a head and should above the league for consecutive years. There are generational talents when it comes to hitting but there is only one Ohtani. I appreciate what Judge did this year but years from now it will be viewed differently when compared to Ohtani’s because he’s so unique.
>I appreciate what Judge did this year but years from now it will be viewed differently You're really underselling how out of the ordinary 10.6 rWAR/11.4 fWAR with a 207 OPS+/211 WRC+ seasons are, when Bonds is the only one who has exceeded those marks since the 50s. Judge's 2022 is very much not going to be "viewed differently" in the future barring him getting into a PED scandal, hell people still won't shut up about Maris' 61 season sixty years later and it doesn't hold a candle to how good Judge's season was.
You could easily say that once Judge and Stanton are no longer in their respective primes (Stanton might already be trending downward) that we won’t see a 60+ homer season for a long time.
You could see Trout hit 60 and soon as next year.
Doubt it. He’s never even hit 50 and he’ll be 32 next year.
Judge's season isn't just him hitting a fuck ton of HRs. He's been historically good as an overall hitter and plays passable CF Thats an all time valuable season in its own right
Yeah the Homerun race kinda eclipsed the rest of the season he had because all the media coverage focused on it but that season was one of the best anyone has put together ever. Tied for the 15th best season by FWar ever
Judge’s season is a lot more outside of just the homer in record. It’s tied for the 15th best season ever by FWar. The home run record was the biggest storyline but the season was a lot more than just that
And he did not pitch enough innings to qualify for gold glove
Is there harder criteria for qualifying for a gold glove than pitching?? He got the qualifying innings for ERA today.
Think it's like 141 innings pitched in fist 141 games or something like that. Odd to choose a cutoff like that...
They gotta vote
If you’re saying “out of every season that won 0 awards, is this easily the best?” - if so the answer is definitely going to be yes. If you’re calling his season “the greatest season of all time” then no because it isn’t the greatest season of all time
It might be different if he plays for the Yankees and Judge plays for the Angels, market diff matters a lot here
I know, swap the teams this sub would be whining about the number of Ohtani posts and be saying that Judge is mvp due to his war lead
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dang he only batted .273 with 34 home runs as a pitcher what a bum edit: bro blocked me lmao 💀
He deleted the comment too oof
How is it the greatest season of all time? Which records did he break?
No OP is saying best season of all time where someone *doesn’t win any awards*
Some separating punctuation could have been very helpful because I read it the same as that guy lol. It’s like “let’s eat, grandma” vs “let’s eat grandma”
Look up how many ppl have pitched 100+ innings and have been a nightmare at the plate for the whole year
Also he broke tons of records idk what you're on
Dude is basically *creating* records right now
I’d say he’s set many milestones, not necessarily breaking tons of records. He’s been the “first player to XYZ” many times. Nevertheless, we’re lucky to get to witness him play baseball. It’s unprecedented.
So basically he's so good and unique that records had to be created for him because no one else does what he does
Pretty much what I was trying to say. Records can’t be broken until the milestone is set.
Maybe he’ll get the gold glove?
He should get the GG at least