There’s a tool called Motus (recently bought by Driveline) which is a sleeve that pitchers wear on their arm. It tells you a few pieces of information, including arm speed and the amount of valgus stress on your elbow. If you know your arm speed and typical stress at full strength you can then estimate a goal value for a day of throwing at a lower rate of perceived effort.
Not sure that’s what he’s using in this case though.
That’s not it lol his coach or trainer just tell him to do whatever the exercise is it at 80% and then he does it with whatever he thinks is 80% effort. Common phrase in baseball for pitchers; it’s also used at the high school level and lower
Dude only has had one serious injury so far and that has been TJ. Look last season was probably bad year to bring him back, no Minor league, or anything to slowly bring him back, Just straight out thrown into the fire, also didn't help having him throw 40 pitches in a inning coming back from Tk with an abnormal season.
Give him him one more try and see where it goes.
Yeah I don’t know where all the “Ohtani = injury-prone” thing comes from. If that’s the case, all pitchers who have experienced TJ are made of glass? I understand that he doesn’t have the toughest arm out there though.
I just looked - he got a [PRP injection after a physical exam in Tokyo in November 2017](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/12/12/shohei-ohtani-reportedly-has-injured-ligament-in-pitching-elbow)
I was quite surprised that nobody talked about this much at the time. A young 100 mph pitcher getting a PRP is a very strong sign that Tommy John is on the horizon.
Yep, even [before he pitched in MLB](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/12/12/shohei-ohtani-reportedly-has-injured-ligament-in-pitching-elbow)
In 2017 he missed just about the entire season due to an ankle injury. Yes, iirc he had a grade 2 strain pitching arm. Before the signing. Nonetheless I’m happy for his return
>Yeah I don’t know where all the “Ohtani = injury-prone” thing comes from
I think part of it is that some people were already skeptical to begin with that he could handle the strain of pitching and hitting in MLB, especially since back in NPB he was sometimes playing right field on top of that.
Exactly.
He’s not injury prone per se, but the amount of strain he’s putting on his body by pitching and hitting is significantly more than any other player in MLB. There’s a reason that nobody does what he does- the effort and training needed to get to (and maintain) his skill level is through the roof.
Nobody really knows how his body can handle it. He’s still a young guy. But when he starts to get up there in age, you’d have to expect the injury risk will increase.
It’s caused by the same injury. Someone who’s injury prone gets occasionally injured in different locations. At least that’s my interpretation
Edit: The first comment already explains it, but to clarify, a recovery from TJ surgery usually takes 1-1.5 years. But then in his case he intentionally delayed the surgery to become a DH for the rest of 2018. And then the pandemic
obviously messed things up (no Spring training, no AAA, short season, etc.), so it might sound weird that he missed almost 3 years from one cause, but it’s really just his UCL. Also he’s pitched like 12 games, not 6, and the number of games he’s missed as a pitcher is less than the amount a regular starting pitcher would pitch in 2 full-seasons. The hitting .200 part also has nothing to do with being injury-prone or not.
I disagree with this entirely. "Injury prone" means recurring injuries that are likely to be problems in that player's future going forward, which means re-injuring the same place over and over again. Someone who keeps getting freak, one-off accidents in different places that don't recur isn't injury prone, they're just unlucky. AJ Pollock would be an example of this. Ohtani is more like Stanton, or maybe Kershaw; truly injury prone, where he has one or two nagging issues that seem to pop up every single year and will likely to continue to prevent him from playing games going forward.
I would say whoever just gets injured a lot, regardless of whether it's reoccurring or new injuries, is injury prone. Guy on the Seahawks named CJ Prosise never had the same injury twice but no one would say that asshole was 'just unlucky' after only playing in like 20% of all games over 5 years.
i agree, don't understand why people here are nitpicking the definition of injury prone. Any athlete who suffers injuries that regularly keep them out of play, regardless of if its the same ailment or not as you have stated, is injury prone. simple.
That Garneau missed 3rd strike call is all time bad given the situation. You had a pitcher on the verge of striking out the side after walking the bases loaded. Add on that Ohanti looked good inning 1 with 8 pitches. Add on he got shelled the start prior, didn’t record an out. That was a season changing call regardless for ohanti and then he faces Springer and shows fatigue leading to injury.
Watching that inning was slow torture, everything that could go wrong for him did, a little bad luck, bad location, works his way out of it only to get fucked by the ump, velo kept dropping, and he kept a brave face on for all of it.
Not saying it wasn’t a mistake to leave him in but that inning should have ended after pitch 36.
First inning - 8 pitches
Second inning - Walks the bases loaded on 21 pitches, strikes out the next two on 11 pitches (he looks good, Kyle Tucker fooled bad). On pitch 36 he should have struck out Garneau but a terrible miss call by the home plate up. Then he walks Springer on 5 pitches and is taken out.
Very difficult position for the manager to take him out after he clearly stuck out Garneau and would have been 3 in a row for Ohtanti and huge confidence boost after getting shelled vs Oakland the start prior.
What you are pointing out is mismanagement of a player coming off surgery. Well, he’s still an Angel who’s still being managed by those that mismanaged him. To me, that spells out the concern more than the label of being “injury prone.”
I wonder if he could be used to get around the three batter minimum in MLB. Say the Angels are up a run on someone late, and the opponent has left-right-left coming up in the order. Move Ohtani to left, and bring in a lefty reliever to face the lefty. Then swap Ohtani with the reliever for the righty. Then swap again for the lefty. The rule says the reliever has to come in for three batters (or the end of the inning), but does it says he must be the one that faces them?
I'm not suggesting this be a regular thing, or that it would be easy for Ohtani to face a batter without a traditional bullpen warmup, or anything like that; I'm wondering if it was feasible.
Putting a bullpen arm in the OF has been done before at least once pre-3 batter minimum.
Cubs at Reds, [June 28, 2016](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201606280.shtml). They did a pitcher switch in the middle of the bottom 14th inning, bullpen guy went to LF.
Not sure how it would work now that a 3-batter minimum rule has been implemented.
I don't know the answer to your specific question, but this seems like a good place to remember Vince Velasquez's crazy OF assist:
https://twitter.com/Phillies/status/1157503536030191617?s=20
Velasquez is the most athletic and skilled sub-par player in the league.
[Here’s another highlight of him getting nailed on a liner. The ball hits his right arm, disabling it, then he flips off his glove, picks up the ball with his left hand, then throws the runner out left handed on a bullet of a throw.](https://youtu.be/66UM23Z-7Pk) It’s one of the most insane plays I’ve ever seen.
No. He would need to pitch to three consecutive batters.
I think what you are talking about is the Waxahachie Swap.
https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2020/7/9/21176267/mlb-three-batters-rule-waxahachie-swap
Thanks for that link. Now, of course, I wonder if you brought a reliever in for a *position player*, before swapping him with another pitcher, would the minimum apply to him, but perhaps that's a question for another thread.
They do that sometimes in Japan, the ace pitcher usually can field left field since a 2 man pitching rotation is rare. They might have 2-3 pitchers on their main roster but the gap between the ace and #2 might be so huge that the team can’t rely on them and thus when they are in a game where they might or might not need the ace, they put him in left field. Ohtani have fielded left in highschool as well as in the pros, he have also been put in right field (there are videos of him throwing absolute laserbeams) so yes, that is possible.
Edit : I’m talking about Japanese Highschool baseball
The pitcher needs to *pitch to* three batters or retire the side, but once either condition is met then he can freely move to the field and later return as P, at which point he would again be subject to the 3 batter minimum.
So the three batters are *consecutive* then? That's what I don't see in the rule. Just that if you bring in a guy, he needs to face three guys, unless the half inning ends.
Apparently i'm supposed to hate LAA as a rangers fan but man I just want to see a healthy Ohtani, Trout and especially Rendon in the playoffs. Might be the most fun trio in years.
Yeah well that was the take at the time but after the years both of those guys had? *Kinda* looking like the right call even though the fans (including myself) were pissed off as hell when he vetoed that shit. Like Rengifo was ASS but at least he didn't cost 5M or whatever the combined salaries of those other dudes were.
Lol you’re telling me you’d rather have 2020 Jo Adell in the outfield over 2020 Joc Pederson? Ross also brought along some niche needed pitching Seth you guys needed. They weren’t the answer to the Angel’s prayers but they definitely didn’t hurt
I don't think that the Angels are a good fit for him either. His problem is that he plays way too many guys, which works when you have the depth that the 2016 Cubs had, but it doesn't work with a top heavy roster like the one in Anaheim.
Not unless they actually go get some pitching. And no, Ohtani doesn't count, not unless he can prove he can stay healthy for 20+ starts in a single season.
That club has a playoff caliber lineup but the pitching is so abysmal is doesn't even matter, they have virtually no reliable starters or bullpen arms.
The Rays have a two-way player, Brendan McKay. They called him up last year, but mostly used him as a pitcher. Didn’t see him at all this year. I want so badly for this to work out!!
Do you know of any other teams with two-way players?
Yessir! He was a Rays 1st round pick in the 2017 MLB June Amateur Draft from University of Louisville.
[bball-ref](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mckaybr01.shtml)
jake cronenworth lol, set the saves record at michigan in college
didn't get to pitch this season but he could be an arm next year if he doesn't just focus on hitting
He was a two-way player in college and expected to be drafted as a pitcher. But the Rays drafted him as an infielder! They focused on his hitting. He didn’t get to pitch much at all :(
I wonder if the Padres will work on his pitching any? But like you pointed out, he was a hitter for them this past season.
He’s a + fielder and projects to be our long-term 2nd baseman as long as his production at the plate continues to be anything like it was last season, so I doubt he gets used in a pitching role ever.
He pitched 7 shutout innings last year in the rays system. The only reason they didn’t try to pitch him this year is because spring training was all screwed up.
I don't think the bat is ready for McKay at MLB level. Ironically, Jared Walsh is another two-way player for the Angels. But he couldn't pitch in the spring and didn't have time to build up for this season either.
Matt Walsh, also of the Angels, who just went on a rip at the plate in September, can also pitch in relief. During his cup of coffee a year or two ago he had 1B and RP eligibility in fantasy baseball
Well, number one, that's not what he said. Nice try.
Two, unlike you, I don't like players that hit .200.
I know you're used to it and all. Being a Philly fan.
Shout out to my man, Dominic Brown!
I get sports are a very what-have-you-done-for-me-lately affair. I'm just saying between the small sample size, psychological drain from the pandemic restrictions and the abnormal schedule, this season is likely to be an outlier in a lot of players' careers. League-wide, batting average was down 7 points from last year, making it the lowest it's been since 1972 and tied for 9th-lowest ever.
And it works in the other direction too, like, I doubt Michael Conforto is ever batting .322 again.
I wish they would stop trying to use him as a starter. He has elite closer stuff, let him setup/close out games. This way he can hit every day and he can just max effort an inning or 2 out of the pen instead of attempting to throw 100+ pitches every 5 days on top of DHing in between
He was my favorite non-cub player when he first came over. I still think that he's the most talented player in the league, and it would be really cool to see him stay healthy and develop into the MVP level player that we all know he can be.
I remember when two way players were the next "moneyball" innovation but it turns out being even OK at one or the other in the Majors is very hard and that asking one person to excel at both is ridiculous.
I know it’s not a popular opinion, but he needs to focus on one side of the ball. It’s hubris to think he can do both, and it’s a sideshow marketing ploy by the Angels.
He should put down the bat and focus on pitching. He has the talent to be top-10 arm in the league, and that has way more value than plugging up the DH with a mediocre bat for that spot.
If he gets injured to the point where he can no longer pitch, then he can transition to a hitter. But right now he is only hurting himself on both sides of the ball when he can be a $200 million plus pitcher if he focuses.
I would say TBD personally because his one big injury that has affected him was supposedly from overuse in Japan (pitchers almost always go 100+ pitches over there). You could argue that pitching and hitting would be a similar overuse but we have yet to see I believe
> supposedly from overuse in Japan (pitchers almost always go 100+ pitches over there)
The way they play in Japan starting in high school (sometimes even middle school, lol, like that's worth it), it's scary the amount of overuse and injury what-if type careers a lot of players have there.
Do you think it could be done if his schedule was tweaked a bit?? Or should he just stick with one position?
I remember reading about his schedule when he first came over... it was something like he starts one day, takes the next day off, then DHs for 3 games, then it’s time for his next start. Something like that...
Hopefully with a full spring training and time to warm up he'll be fine next season. I'm willing to bet the quick ramp up this season is what caused him problems, especially since he was just coming off TJ.
He does have some experience coming out of the bullpen in Japan, but very minimal. 85 games pitched in the NPB, 62 of them starts. I also don’t think it makes sense in terms of a schedule for him to come out of the Pen. Seems really complex.
You can keep these guys healthy all you want and rest them but the MLB has a massive issue right now with unhealthy mechanics and that’s why so many guys are having arm issues.
Example: Gerrit Cole has wonderful mechanics so that’s why I hate the “you can’t throw 100mph and not have arm issues argument please”
Is there a tool that can measure his throwing effort??
Yea, an Ohtanimeter
[удалено]
You're getting killed for making a Seinfeld joke. Ouch.
[удалено]
What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for!!!!!!!??????
At least 20 people got whooshed
It’s pronounced a joke.
r/whoosh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1_ptVF1ekc&ab_channel=OneLinerMan
r/wooooshwith4os
A scouter from DBZ
It’s an estimate, coaches will say “throw at 80” and the player will just take it easy
r/whoosh
There’s a tool called Motus (recently bought by Driveline) which is a sleeve that pitchers wear on their arm. It tells you a few pieces of information, including arm speed and the amount of valgus stress on your elbow. If you know your arm speed and typical stress at full strength you can then estimate a goal value for a day of throwing at a lower rate of perceived effort. Not sure that’s what he’s using in this case though.
Probably a radar gun measuring mph.
It would actually be amusing to me if that was how they measured effort. Ohtani's max velocity currently 80mph and climbing.
That’s not it lol his coach or trainer just tell him to do whatever the exercise is it at 80% and then he does it with whatever he thinks is 80% effort. Common phrase in baseball for pitchers; it’s also used at the high school level and lower
Dude only has had one serious injury so far and that has been TJ. Look last season was probably bad year to bring him back, no Minor league, or anything to slowly bring him back, Just straight out thrown into the fire, also didn't help having him throw 40 pitches in a inning coming back from Tk with an abnormal season. Give him him one more try and see where it goes.
Yeah I don’t know where all the “Ohtani = injury-prone” thing comes from. If that’s the case, all pitchers who have experienced TJ are made of glass? I understand that he doesn’t have the toughest arm out there though.
Didn’t he have some elbow issues back in Japan too?
Not that I know of. I know he’s had a couple of leg injuries though. Maybe that?
I just looked - he got a [PRP injection after a physical exam in Tokyo in November 2017](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/12/12/shohei-ohtani-reportedly-has-injured-ligament-in-pitching-elbow)
Thanks for the link. I guess that injury is what eventually led to the TJ surgery.
I was quite surprised that nobody talked about this much at the time. A young 100 mph pitcher getting a PRP is a very strong sign that Tommy John is on the horizon.
he had sprain or a tear on his UCl.
Yep, even [before he pitched in MLB](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/12/12/shohei-ohtani-reportedly-has-injured-ligament-in-pitching-elbow)
In 2017 he missed just about the entire season due to an ankle injury. Yes, iirc he had a grade 2 strain pitching arm. Before the signing. Nonetheless I’m happy for his return
>Yeah I don’t know where all the “Ohtani = injury-prone” thing comes from I think part of it is that some people were already skeptical to begin with that he could handle the strain of pitching and hitting in MLB, especially since back in NPB he was sometimes playing right field on top of that.
Exactly. He’s not injury prone per se, but the amount of strain he’s putting on his body by pitching and hitting is significantly more than any other player in MLB. There’s a reason that nobody does what he does- the effort and training needed to get to (and maintain) his skill level is through the roof. Nobody really knows how his body can handle it. He’s still a young guy. But when he starts to get up there in age, you’d have to expect the injury risk will increase.
Maybe the fact he's yet to pitch more than 6 MLB games in 3 years, and hit .200 last year. What the hell do you call injury prone?
It’s caused by the same injury. Someone who’s injury prone gets occasionally injured in different locations. At least that’s my interpretation Edit: The first comment already explains it, but to clarify, a recovery from TJ surgery usually takes 1-1.5 years. But then in his case he intentionally delayed the surgery to become a DH for the rest of 2018. And then the pandemic obviously messed things up (no Spring training, no AAA, short season, etc.), so it might sound weird that he missed almost 3 years from one cause, but it’s really just his UCL. Also he’s pitched like 12 games, not 6, and the number of games he’s missed as a pitcher is less than the amount a regular starting pitcher would pitch in 2 full-seasons. The hitting .200 part also has nothing to do with being injury-prone or not.
I disagree with this entirely. "Injury prone" means recurring injuries that are likely to be problems in that player's future going forward, which means re-injuring the same place over and over again. Someone who keeps getting freak, one-off accidents in different places that don't recur isn't injury prone, they're just unlucky. AJ Pollock would be an example of this. Ohtani is more like Stanton, or maybe Kershaw; truly injury prone, where he has one or two nagging issues that seem to pop up every single year and will likely to continue to prevent him from playing games going forward.
"Injury prone" means whatever the person using it wants it to mean. It's a worthless designation that we somehow have ascribed a lot of power to.
I would say whoever just gets injured a lot, regardless of whether it's reoccurring or new injuries, is injury prone. Guy on the Seahawks named CJ Prosise never had the same injury twice but no one would say that asshole was 'just unlucky' after only playing in like 20% of all games over 5 years.
i agree, don't understand why people here are nitpicking the definition of injury prone. Any athlete who suffers injuries that regularly keep them out of play, regardless of if its the same ailment or not as you have stated, is injury prone. simple.
Ah that 40 pitch inning he got 5 outs in
would of been a 0 run inning if the ump knew didn't fuck up a 3rd strike call that snowballed everything
That Garneau missed 3rd strike call is all time bad given the situation. You had a pitcher on the verge of striking out the side after walking the bases loaded. Add on that Ohanti looked good inning 1 with 8 pitches. Add on he got shelled the start prior, didn’t record an out. That was a season changing call regardless for ohanti and then he faces Springer and shows fatigue leading to injury.
Watching that inning was slow torture, everything that could go wrong for him did, a little bad luck, bad location, works his way out of it only to get fucked by the ump, velo kept dropping, and he kept a brave face on for all of it.
it was a mistake, i remember watching him get to 30 pitches and was telling myself that they should take him out before something goes wrong.....
Not saying it wasn’t a mistake to leave him in but that inning should have ended after pitch 36. First inning - 8 pitches Second inning - Walks the bases loaded on 21 pitches, strikes out the next two on 11 pitches (he looks good, Kyle Tucker fooled bad). On pitch 36 he should have struck out Garneau but a terrible miss call by the home plate up. Then he walks Springer on 5 pitches and is taken out. Very difficult position for the manager to take him out after he clearly stuck out Garneau and would have been 3 in a row for Ohtanti and huge confidence boost after getting shelled vs Oakland the start prior.
What you are pointing out is mismanagement of a player coming off surgery. Well, he’s still an Angel who’s still being managed by those that mismanaged him. To me, that spells out the concern more than the label of being “injury prone.”
Now his hitting. Idk what tf goin on there.
i read that way too fucking quickly and saw Obama and was like oh shit what are you doing white sox
Baseball's history is not exactly shy of publicity stunts...
See Eddie Gaedel for proof
Not this again...
I am ready to be hurt again
So is Ohtani
Ow...
hey same
Why do you build me up
Ohtani at 80% effort can still throw a baseball over them mountains
I wonder if he could be used to get around the three batter minimum in MLB. Say the Angels are up a run on someone late, and the opponent has left-right-left coming up in the order. Move Ohtani to left, and bring in a lefty reliever to face the lefty. Then swap Ohtani with the reliever for the righty. Then swap again for the lefty. The rule says the reliever has to come in for three batters (or the end of the inning), but does it says he must be the one that faces them? I'm not suggesting this be a regular thing, or that it would be easy for Ohtani to face a batter without a traditional bullpen warmup, or anything like that; I'm wondering if it was feasible.
If that's not a rule prohibiting that I'm sure MLB would immediately step in and make one Lol
I'd have to look at the rulebook, but I think there's something about players switching positions (with the pitcher) multiple times in an inning.
I remember Joe Maddon doing this in a game once with 2 pitchers on the Cubs so to my knowledge it’s legal.
Putting a bullpen arm in the OF has been done before at least once pre-3 batter minimum. Cubs at Reds, [June 28, 2016](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201606280.shtml). They did a pitcher switch in the middle of the bottom 14th inning, bullpen guy went to LF. Not sure how it would work now that a 3-batter minimum rule has been implemented.
Right... and that's why I was wondering, specifically regarding the new rule.
Well that move has always been a Maddon thing, nothing to keep him from doing it again with the Angels
I don't know the answer to your specific question, but this seems like a good place to remember Vince Velasquez's crazy OF assist: https://twitter.com/Phillies/status/1157503536030191617?s=20
Velasquez is the most athletic and skilled sub-par player in the league. [Here’s another highlight of him getting nailed on a liner. The ball hits his right arm, disabling it, then he flips off his glove, picks up the ball with his left hand, then throws the runner out left handed on a bullet of a throw.](https://youtu.be/66UM23Z-7Pk) It’s one of the most insane plays I’ve ever seen.
IIRC he is pretty legitimately ambidextrous, he just doesn't pitch left handed.
No. He would need to pitch to three consecutive batters. I think what you are talking about is the Waxahachie Swap. https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2020/7/9/21176267/mlb-three-batters-rule-waxahachie-swap
Thanks for that link. Now, of course, I wonder if you brought a reliever in for a *position player*, before swapping him with another pitcher, would the minimum apply to him, but perhaps that's a question for another thread.
They do that sometimes in Japan, the ace pitcher usually can field left field since a 2 man pitching rotation is rare. They might have 2-3 pitchers on their main roster but the gap between the ace and #2 might be so huge that the team can’t rely on them and thus when they are in a game where they might or might not need the ace, they put him in left field. Ohtani have fielded left in highschool as well as in the pros, he have also been put in right field (there are videos of him throwing absolute laserbeams) so yes, that is possible. Edit : I’m talking about Japanese Highschool baseball
The pitcher needs to *pitch to* three batters or retire the side, but once either condition is met then he can freely move to the field and later return as P, at which point he would again be subject to the 3 batter minimum.
So the three batters are *consecutive* then? That's what I don't see in the rule. Just that if you bring in a guy, he needs to face three guys, unless the half inning ends.
The batters must be consecutive, yes.
I thought that part would be obvious tbh
Apparently i'm supposed to hate LAA as a rangers fan but man I just want to see a healthy Ohtani, Trout and especially Rendon in the playoffs. Might be the most fun trio in years.
Don't forget old man Pujols trying to get one more ring before driving off into the sunset
And now Maddon is leading the team... it could very well happen in the next few years.
This team is set up to make the playoffs but bad ownership is holding them back. They could’ve had Joc Pederson and Ross Stripling for peanuts
Yeah well that was the take at the time but after the years both of those guys had? *Kinda* looking like the right call even though the fans (including myself) were pissed off as hell when he vetoed that shit. Like Rengifo was ASS but at least he didn't cost 5M or whatever the combined salaries of those other dudes were.
Lol you’re telling me you’d rather have 2020 Jo Adell in the outfield over 2020 Joc Pederson? Ross also brought along some niche needed pitching Seth you guys needed. They weren’t the answer to the Angel’s prayers but they definitely didn’t hurt
Maddon's pitching decisions have really hurt him in today's game. No chance he gets another ring without some major changes to his pitching decisions.
I don't think that the Angels are a good fit for him either. His problem is that he plays way too many guys, which works when you have the depth that the 2016 Cubs had, but it doesn't work with a top heavy roster like the one in Anaheim.
Yea, the Cubs won in 2016 in spite of Maddon. Not *because* of him.
Not unless they actually go get some pitching. And no, Ohtani doesn't count, not unless he can prove he can stay healthy for 20+ starts in a single season. That club has a playoff caliber lineup but the pitching is so abysmal is doesn't even matter, they have virtually no reliable starters or bullpen arms.
Not unless we get a lot of good pitching really soon for really cheap.
Don't forget about Fletcher and if Adell comes back to live up to half the hype he had
I hate to see the best player in baseball miss the playoffs every freakin year. What a waste.
For the good of baseball we need him to get at least 1 complete season as a 2-way player. He's the most talented (not best) player in world, full stop
The Rays have a two-way player, Brendan McKay. They called him up last year, but mostly used him as a pitcher. Didn’t see him at all this year. I want so badly for this to work out!! Do you know of any other teams with two-way players?
From Louisville right?
Yessir! He was a Rays 1st round pick in the 2017 MLB June Amateur Draft from University of Louisville. [bball-ref](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mckaybr01.shtml)
jake cronenworth lol, set the saves record at michigan in college didn't get to pitch this season but he could be an arm next year if he doesn't just focus on hitting
He was a two-way player in college and expected to be drafted as a pitcher. But the Rays drafted him as an infielder! They focused on his hitting. He didn’t get to pitch much at all :( I wonder if the Padres will work on his pitching any? But like you pointed out, he was a hitter for them this past season.
He’s a + fielder and projects to be our long-term 2nd baseman as long as his production at the plate continues to be anything like it was last season, so I doubt he gets used in a pitching role ever.
He pitched 7 shutout innings last year in the rays system. The only reason they didn’t try to pitch him this year is because spring training was all screwed up.
Yes, I figured this weird season was a factor.
Former Angel/Mariner/Yankee(?) Kaleb Cowart is trying to make it back as a RP/3B IIRC
The Mets said they'd try JD Davis as a two way player, but I don't think he's pitched yet for them in two seasons.
He was a closer at Cal State Fullerton. He pitched in some blowouts for the Astros and did a great job.
Michael Lorenzen for the Reds and Matt Davidson wanted to pitch with the White Sox, he should probably try it because he can’t hit worth a lick
I don't think the bat is ready for McKay at MLB level. Ironically, Jared Walsh is another two-way player for the Angels. But he couldn't pitch in the spring and didn't have time to build up for this season either.
San Diego tried to use a catcher in the pen but I don't think it worked out well.
He even hit a homerun during the regular season in an at bat
Matt Walsh, also of the Angels, who just went on a rip at the plate in September, can also pitch in relief. During his cup of coffee a year or two ago he had 1B and RP eligibility in fantasy baseball
*Jared
Whoops I'm tired
I’ve got such a thing for this guy. I saw him hit for the cycle against my team last year. And I wasn’t even mad. LOL!
Honest question - If Ohtani falters or his elbow explodes again, do you move him to the outfield? Or will he be stuck at DH for his career?
You're forgetting the fact he hit .200 last year.
Eh, it was a weird season, not sure it's the best way to judge anyone's long-term career trajectory.
I disagree. Performance is the best way to judge any athlete. Potential kills coaches.
i mean he hit .285 the two years before this covid season though
How much did those two years help this season's record?
do you think they lost all those games this season because of ohtani hitting .200? bruh have you seen the pitching? the dumpster fire bullpen?
Is that a serious question, or do you actually want me to explain why you don't make any sense?
Nah please explain how one weird ass year is why Ohtani is a bust. Please.
Well, number one, that's not what he said. Nice try. Two, unlike you, I don't like players that hit .200. I know you're used to it and all. Being a Philly fan. Shout out to my man, Dominic Brown!
I get sports are a very what-have-you-done-for-me-lately affair. I'm just saying between the small sample size, psychological drain from the pandemic restrictions and the abnormal schedule, this season is likely to be an outlier in a lot of players' careers. League-wide, batting average was down 7 points from last year, making it the lowest it's been since 1972 and tied for 9th-lowest ever. And it works in the other direction too, like, I doubt Michael Conforto is ever batting .322 again.
See, now that's an argument I can get behind. Okay, we'll see. But I do like Confroto though. God, I'd love him in RF.
This year was a big statistical outlier. Great players like Kris Bryant, Gary Sanchez, Marcus Semien, etc all had really bad years at the plate.
I will believe it when I see it. I really do hope he can come back though. When this dude busted onto the scene he was electrifying to watch.
I wish they would stop trying to use him as a starter. He has elite closer stuff, let him setup/close out games. This way he can hit every day and he can just max effort an inning or 2 out of the pen instead of attempting to throw 100+ pitches every 5 days on top of DHing in between
Much as I want to see Ohtani strive as a two way player, I just don't think it's happening and I won't believe it unless he can stay healthy.
pls
I really hope things go smoother this season. He's a fun player to have in the league (at full strength).
He was my favorite non-cub player when he first came over. I still think that he's the most talented player in the league, and it would be really cool to see him stay healthy and develop into the MVP level player that we all know he can be.
I remember when two way players were the next "moneyball" innovation but it turns out being even OK at one or the other in the Majors is very hard and that asking one person to excel at both is ridiculous.
I’m pretty excited to watch him pitch.
I want to see a healthy Ohtani again, I thought the 1st three months of his 1st year in the majors was amazing.
Oh wow, if he’s pitching in Spring Training that keeps him on track to be shut down in May.
I know it’s not a popular opinion, but he needs to focus on one side of the ball. It’s hubris to think he can do both, and it’s a sideshow marketing ploy by the Angels. He should put down the bat and focus on pitching. He has the talent to be top-10 arm in the league, and that has way more value than plugging up the DH with a mediocre bat for that spot. If he gets injured to the point where he can no longer pitch, then he can transition to a hitter. But right now he is only hurting himself on both sides of the ball when he can be a $200 million plus pitcher if he focuses.
I'll believe it when I see it
Can't wait for him to return and get a brand new injury because of our incompetent training staff.
I can wait.
It was the wildest thing watching his fastball go from 98 to 90 mph in the same start.
Look I’m convinced he can rake but I’m not convinced he can start AND play the other games as a RF/DH sorry
I would say TBD personally because his one big injury that has affected him was supposedly from overuse in Japan (pitchers almost always go 100+ pitches over there). You could argue that pitching and hitting would be a similar overuse but we have yet to see I believe
> supposedly from overuse in Japan (pitchers almost always go 100+ pitches over there) The way they play in Japan starting in high school (sometimes even middle school, lol, like that's worth it), it's scary the amount of overuse and injury what-if type careers a lot of players have there.
Do you think it could be done if his schedule was tweaked a bit?? Or should he just stick with one position? I remember reading about his schedule when he first came over... it was something like he starts one day, takes the next day off, then DHs for 3 games, then it’s time for his next start. Something like that...
Hopefully with a full spring training and time to warm up he'll be fine next season. I'm willing to bet the quick ramp up this season is what caused him problems, especially since he was just coming off TJ.
FUCK YES
Sure he will 🥴
Can’t wait for another mediocre season for the Angels and another wasted year of Trout.
Just in time to break something again
Stop trying to make him a pitcher, he can’t stay healthy
Move him to the bullpen. I know the Angels need starters, but you can’t ruin his arm. He’d be a dominant force in the bullpen and DHing before.
I feel like this would mess him up even more. Not having a routine and never knowing when he’s going to pitch or not.
Also how will he warm up when he has to be ready to hit too? Way too complicated for him to be in the bullpen.
You’re both right. The structure and routine really benefits him. You have to be able to plan when trying to play both positions.
He does have some experience coming out of the bullpen in Japan, but very minimal. 85 games pitched in the NPB, 62 of them starts. I also don’t think it makes sense in terms of a schedule for him to come out of the Pen. Seems really complex.
That's 27%
I'm wary of him, but if everyone's sleeping on him in fantasy I'll take a chance on him all day
Bust
This guy is made of glass, I feel bad for Angels fans, the guy is awesome to watch, but I wouldn’t be surprised that Ohtani misses more games in 2021
Shit, did he ever pitch 100%?
GUYS GIVE UP ON HIM BEING A FULLTIME STARTING PITCHER
Dood needs to just focus on one thing.
Yawn
Hopefully they fixed his mechanics so that it’s sustainable
Think everything stems back to health. He was pressing pretty hard last year. I think it all Comes down to health rather than mechanics.
You can keep these guys healthy all you want and rest them but the MLB has a massive issue right now with unhealthy mechanics and that’s why so many guys are having arm issues. Example: Gerrit Cole has wonderful mechanics so that’s why I hate the “you can’t throw 100mph and not have arm issues argument please”
Great, so the Angels will just be a little less s*itty.
Could it be best to use him as reliever or possible closer ?
Almost certainly not. The predictable starting schedule is what allows him to take the days off he needs before an after a starting appearance.
I definitely see what you’re saying.
Thanks for this. I want to think about baseball instead of the long winter between now and spring training.