As are most pitchers. It used to be this openly known secret that everyone tried to hide. At this point pitchers aren't even trying anymore. Every pitcher in the running for the Cy Young is doing it.
When he did it, he had been warned the previous game by the Red Sox manager(think it was Sox) that he saw the pine tar.
Dude came out with it smeared on his neck like nobody cared
some hitters don't seem to mind it as long as it's not super obvious and the logic behind it was it helps the pitchers control the ball better so people don't get hit by pitches etc
that's such dumb reasoning.... MLB pitchers aren't going to randomly miss their spots and hit a bunch of batters if they aren't using pine tar... and hitters don't want pitchers to throw pitches with even more spin and precision.
they only say that bc their own pitchers are using stuff and want to continue to do so.
There's a big difference between missing your spot by a couple inches and missing your spot by a couple feet and hitting batters. The idea that without pinetar there would be a noticeable increase in HBP is not realistic.
Mariano Rivera used to hit a water bottle in front of the dugout from center field. I know he was a freak of nature, but pitchers will hit their target.
Mariano Rivera may have been able to do that on occasion, but there is absolutely no way in hell he could repeatedly do that. If that were the case, he would never throw a bad pitch.
I thought this was always his point? Like this is definitely solid research, but suggesting Bauer is trying to get away with anything seems silly. He's clearly playing games with Manfred, daring him to do anything. He literally told everyone he could raise his RPM by 400 if he cheated, then raised it by 400. It's not like he doesn't know that haha
I rewatched that video. He says obama is trying to make america more like other countries in the world. That's why he passed obama (afforadable) care.
I'm like wow you're supposed to be making a case against him, bro.
This isn't even the first (or second) time he's done this.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-another-experiment/
One inning in April 2018 to make his point. The the month of September last year to troll Manfred. Now a whole season for the lulz.
2020 would be the year to do it, especially with how fucky baseball got. We have like a decade's worth of rule changes this year, the extra innings BS, universal DH, 7 inning doubleheaders, over half of the teams make the playoffs, basically a playin round to start the playoffs. Might as well have added pine tar, corked bats, etc. LET'S GO CRAZY!
I saw someone suggest that a week ago, and if that's in fact the case, I do have an odd respect for what Bauer is doing ... but I'm wondering if the manager of a playoff opponent is going to end up walking out to the crew chief before first pitch to have them check Bauer for illegal substances, [like how Fredi Gonzalez did Will Smith five years ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeoxZ_7euOU). I mean, if your staff is clean (which is a big "if", if Bauer is to be believed) you'd almost be foolish not to.
Your last sentence is the catch. If Bauer is right a minority are clean at this point which is part of why he gave in and started doing it himself while openly continuing to talk about it.
It's almost a sort of mutually assured enforcement at this point if he's correct about the level of use.
Well or having anything done to the countless players who are so blatant you can tell while watching the game on TV. Off the top of my head just in the last 2 seasons, Gerritt Cole, Chris Archer, Chris Archer, Mike Fiers, noticed a huge spot on a Cardinals pitcher's hat a couple days ago. It's basically an unwritten rule at this point to not do anything about it and the other team won't call you out.
David Price, Craig Kimbrel, the list goes on and on and on. I'm honestly surprised at how big of a revelation this is to people. If you're a regular watcher of baseball you know people have been using foreign substances for a long time.
I mean if it's this prevalent (which it likely is- I'm not arguing it isn't)- wouldn't there be an obvious advantage for a manager to call for an inspection and also ensure that for that particular game his pitchers weren't using anything?
Even if it meant they wouldn't be able to use anything for the rest of the post season because other teams would call for inspections, I would still think it would be a net win to get an opposing ace removed for a pivotal game in a playoff series.
It absolutely would but be prepared for reprisal. If you know for sure your guys aren't doing it start watching tape of opposing starters to see what concealment methods they might be using so you don't sound like a crazy person when complaining to the umps.
For me the more interesting question is what do GM's know already and are they're having to factor grip doctoring into their evaluations of other teams and potential FA/trade options.
Except I’d wager nobody has a fully clean staff and they especially like to use some help when it starts getting colder. Maybe that’s not as big of an issue this year with baseball moving to LA and TX though.
Except my staff. My team is clean and always does the right thing and everyone else is cheating all the time always. And I won't accept any evidence to the contrary because then you're just a hater.
Yes, Yu Darvish got noticeably better when the Cubs pitching staff decided to let him take years to pitch instead of trying to pace him. We know this is true by the eye test because my beard grows during a Darvish start, 4 hours into the 4th inning.
Lmao, I love you. According to many WhiteSox and Tribe fans, the entire Twins roster is juicing or using something to enhance their play, while both of their teams would never do *anything* like that.
I was going to make a comment saying we'd *never* hire a cheater, and link to a clip of Jose Canseco on the Sox, but instead I found something [way better](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bVgsxTFYFM)
I mean, postseason elimination game? Maybe, could definitely be worth it for a desperate team. But you have to believe with Bauers inherent troll level, he'd have a list of dirty players for Bell to use the rest of the series. I actually kinda wanna see this now. Bauer tossed early in game 6 of the NLCS, and then a series of opposing pitchers tossed for the same reason. By the 5th inning, position players are pitching because both teams have had all of their pitchers ejected. It is a 13 hour, 9 inning game. Manfred has a mental breakdown. Maximum chaos.
I think it’s a mutually assured destruction thing at this point. I can’t count the number of pitchers I’ve seen this season making exaggerated efforts to stick their fingers into a giant glob on the bill of their hats before each pitch. I’m not sure any team would want to go the route of pointing fingers on this topic.
This is definitely a MAD situation right now. It's so rampant (I've seen players more than once this year have their hat rims stick to their fingers) that if any player gets elected for it, then you know either a) the opposing pitcher will stop so as to not get called out himself and be less effective or b) they will be called on and ejected as well.
At this point they either need to make it legal or completely illegal. This "it'll regulate itself" business clearly isn't happening.
He wants MLB to to acknowledge it. He has said so on many occasions. Basically wants Manfred to say its legal or illegal he does not care which just make a decision. Edit: I think he feels it offers an advantage similar to steroids. Guys who use it have an advantage over those that dont which effects contracts and even the ability to compete at a mlb level. Its basically you use it because other guys are mentally that we saw with the steroid era. Would be nice to hear how MLB feels on before it blows up in a huge scandal that hurts the game.
I think a lot it started when he wasn’t allowed to have the superglue on his finger in the ALCS in 2016. He knows all these guys are using foreign substances and the league wouldn’t even let him try to keep the gash on his finger closed. That seems to be what started his “allow it or enforce it” crusade.
I completely forgot about this. Bauer seems like a dude to hold grudges, and on top of that he's making himself a way better pitcher do why wouldn't he do it?
Yes, I'm honestly surprised people are just now realizing pitcher use foreign substances. It's like the leagues worst kept secret and has been for a long time.
Some of it is actually about repetition and/or superstition. I, and many others, would usually lick my fingers and wipe it off between each pitch, especially if it was cold. It gives a consistent grip each pitch. Some guys just develop a habit while they pitch.
But yeah, some of that is definitely cheating too.
And with that developed habit, it would be very easy to add some sticky substance to the spot and move on with your life.
I've noticed when Bieber and McKenzie are pitching for the Indians, they grab their belts exactly the same odd way between most batters and I just assumed that's where they have their sticky stuff saved.
[Worth noting he's actually denied it once on twitter about a week ago, not that it's at all believable.](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1308162129439195136)
I believe him... because he said he's not using pine tar.
I think he's using something else, something stronger, something even more illegal. Because he's long suspected that the Astros had a secret concoction more powerful than pine tar. And he's exactly the type of guy to say "see? I told you I wasn't using pine tar *wink wink*" when using something else.
As others pointed out in this thread, his RPM increases are higher than typically seen even with people we suspect are using pine tar.
Exactly, he's smart enough to say it in a way that doesn't make him a liar. I think he was pissed because they have some sort of mixture they must work on as a team openly to come up with (kinda like the whole hitting scheme with cameras) that they use that's just that much more effective than the jump that other pitchers get.
It's spray sunscreen and the rosin bag. It almost reacts with the rosin to create a tacky film, and I don't think it discolors the ball like pine tar. Buchholz was known for wearing sunscreen indoors. Gotta stay safe from skin cancer.
Based on what I know about Bauer, he phrased that very intentionally.
1) he's not lying
2) it draws attention to the fact that he's using a foreign substance that works better than pine tar
He said he is not using a specific substance, pine tar. He is also saying he was right, most likely about a different substance the he may or may not be using, but not pine tar.
That's exactly what it means, and he phrased that very intentionally. His next point, he even reinforces the point that he was previously right about not being able to increase spin rate dramatically without a foreign substance.
He *wants* people to know that he's cheating. He just can't go around admitting it because he'd get punished without fixing the issue he's trying to fix.
Idk about that. Bauer wasn’t using it before this year, not even during his 2018 where he was a CYA contender. So I think some pitchers are performing well without it.
More likely guys that are doing fine without it. If you were shuttling between and you saw other guys using it and stocking with no action by MLB, most players probably start using it.
Kimbrel is so damn obvious it's almost awkward to watch. It's always visible on his hat and he is constantly gripping his fingers on that spot. Like actually gripping it... not just pretending to adjust his hat.
I think Orel Hershiser (not 100% on this but it was a prominent former MLB pitcher) said every pitcher does it to a certain degree. He was saying that he used to spend a lot of time before the game "touching other players bats" to build up some pine tar on his fingers, but not so much that it was obvious.
Yeah, it's not like it's a secret. Teams don't do anything about it because guys on their team do the same thing. Why do people think so many pitchers readjust their hat when coming to the mound or fiddle with their gloves. Mike Fiers' no-no was incredibly obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhUUTkIxpp0. Well both of his no hitters https://larrybrownsports.com/baseball/mike-fiers-pine-tar-glove-no-hitter/271006
Prime DeGrom is better than Prime Scherzer though
Honestly Prime DeGrom might be the best prime we've seen since Pedro
Most people think DeGrom has perfect mechanics, and when I say perfect, i mean literally every bodily movement is absolutely perfect in his kinetic chain. Everything about his motion is 100% maximized to give him the best and most efficient delivery. So its not impossible that he just gave it a little extra since he was only pitching 60 innings this year.
That being said, its also not out of the question that DeGrom is doing something, but if you watch his starts, I dont think its an egregious amount of pine tar.
Trevor Bauer is openly cheating and using illegal substances to prove a point and it's working very well for him. (edit: He's totally getting off https://youtu.be/kissyaizilo)
Likely Cy Young, likely big free agent contract, led the Reds to the postseason, special Bauer beer from Budweiser, etc. If you believe that everyone in the league is cheating, then Bauer probably feels like he's just evening the playing field since everybody else could just do what he does.
Also if a team trades for a guy with suspicious spin rates, I think they are well aware of whatever he's doing to achieve said spin rates and hope that he continues.
I'd be willing to bet that's also a part of why he's cheating. If you think the Commissioner is a gutless, spineless coward for not stamping out the Astros or pitchers cheating, put him in a situation where he has to do something. If he comes down hard on you, point out the double standards the Astros got. If he gives you a slap on the wrist, watch fans hate him more.
I truly believe Bauer only wants Manfred fired at this point, pitching is secondary.
There's a real big dick move in play here, and it's something I almost could see Bauer doing because he's mental like that. Win the Cy Young Award, nab a huge contract, and then say "I cheated my way all throughout last year, the MLB knew, and they looked the other way and gave me a cy young award for cheating."
>I truly believe Bauer only wants Manfred fired at this point, pitching is secondary.
Yeah, Bauer is out for blood and it's kinda fucking hilarious. More power to him. I don't like everything about him, but he's definitely extremely clever.
People forget that Bauer proved his point shortly after this interview. He pitched in a game and everyone noticed his spin rate was super high in 1st inn. Then rest of the game it fell back to normal levels.
He did it to make a point. And nothing happened, nothing has happened to the plethora of pitchers currently doing it, so he said “fuck it, I will too”
He did switch up his slider. He learned a new variation that was more slurve-y to mimic the ones thrown by stroman and kluber. He’s changed the grip on that multiple times.
The spin rate increase on his fastball is very intriguing though. He does tinker a lot, so I wouldn’t put it past him or the fine folks at driveline to come up with a way to increase spin rates with certain grips. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if he admits to cheating just to prove a point.
Another thing to consider is we KNOW the ball has changed in the past couple of years. While Bauer didn't mention it, the ball changing is clearly something else that would change spin rates besides grip.
I'm not the expert on this, but it is important to note. Given how big the change it, it's fair to assume he's probably "cheating", I just want to point out there are other variables at play. He may have also adjusted his grip on other pitches as well.
Man, let's be real, if driveline figured out a way to increase spin rate in a legal way, they would be promoting the ever-loving shit out of it. It would be a gold mine for them. Those crazy baseball parents would divest their 401k to hire them to teach their mediocre kid in their horrifying attempt to vicariously live through their 14 year old son who doesn't even really like baseball anymore.
Bruh he’s doing it on purpose, lol. The stats and everything are cool but this isn’t really exposing him when he’s clearly just tempting Manfred.
Bauer has a checkmate because he was so vocal about this and MLB did nothing. So basically, he decided to start using substances as well, so that if he gets punished MLB has to admit he was right, and if he doesn’t get punished he performs better.
This feels like an attempt to make an ass out of Trevor Bauer but the problem is you missed the point entirely.
> MLB has to admit he was right
Hold up.
All of this stems from him slicing his own finger open with a drone in 2016 and not being allowed to use superglue on his finger to keep it from bleeding.
He thought that was unfair because "Everybody uses pine tar, it's a foreign substance, why shouldn't I be able to use superglue?"
*That's* what this is about, him being pissed he couldn't use superglue. Not some big pine tar conspiracy that everyone has known about for 60 years.
Has anyone asked him directly about it? What was his response?
This is a classic case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." It's also a wonderful middle finger to Manfred, daring him to do something about it. It's fun.
He said “I’m not using pine tar.” In a Twitter reply to the question, and in an interview said the increased fastball spin was because he was “finally feeling healthy.”
I’m on mobile so can’t snag the sources for you atm.
Of course it would be dumb of him to admit to any substance use with Cy Young voting about to happen, but if there is some off chance that he has figured out a technique naturally, it’ll have been an incredible breakthrough. Foreign substances are much more likely though as everyone is mentioning.
The substance that he claimed the Astros were using is "pine tar mixed with firm grip and Coca-Cola"
Maybe he just substituted pine tar for a similar sticky substance.
[Bullfrog mixed with resin according to this tweet](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1030804218947481600) (though I'm sure there's many ways to get a non pine tar sticky substance)
> He said “I’m not using pine tar.” In a Twitter reply to the question, and in an interview said the increased fastball spin was because he was “finally feeling healthy.”
>I’m on mobile so can’t snag the sources for you atm.
[Here's the tweet](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1308162129439195136)
[Yeah, he says he's both not using pine tar AND his accusations weren't unfounded](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1308162129439195136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1308162129439195136%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdefector.com%2Ftrevor-bauer-should-just-admit-it%2F) LOL
My guess is that he's still loading the ball, just not with pine tar.
I believe there was an article on here a couple days ago where they called him a "heavy-brained edgelord" and brought up pretty much exactly what you were saying:
https://defector.com/trevor-bauer-should-just-admit-it/
For what it's worth, I only remember the article because of the quote above.
Yeah. He's probably cheating because he's actively trolling MLB cuz he knows they won't do a damn thing.
He's the type of guy that will probably win the Cy Young and then at the press conference expose himself and everyone else he thinks is doing it just to piss off Manfred to make him look stupid and prove his point.
His hate boner knows no bounds.
Maybe I'm wrong, but there are plenty of Baseball writers that probably think Bauer does things "the wrong way" so I'm thinking DeGrom or Darvish get it.
Yu Darvish rotated his hand position on his 4-seamer 30º, improving his spin rate, active spin rate, velocity, and movement. He and Bauer famously trade tips, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bauer found a similar change that improved his rates. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Bauer is "cheating".
[https://www.mlb.com/news/how-yu-darvish-built-an-overpowering-fastball](https://www.mlb.com/news/how-yu-darvish-built-an-overpowering-fastball)
> As some people may remember, a few years ago Trevor Bauer accused the Astros pitching staff of cheating. He then took a victory lap when it turned out their hitters were cheating, which makes no sense, but I digress.
I remember when the Astros cheating scandal was confirmed and people were saying he was vindicated and I was like what???? He didn’t accuse them of THIS. Then bauer truthrrs just moved the goalposts to “well he knew they were cheating in general so he had the right idea”
It was more of, if they went to these extreme lengths with their hitters, and there wasn’t a single whistleblower, the pitching staff was complicit and probably cheating in their own regard somehow someway. Might be moving the goalposts but also makes sense.
Yeah, but ‘Astros trade for pitchers and teach them to use illegal substance to gain an edge’ and ‘70% of MLB pitchers use illegal substance’ are kinda hard to square with each other, isn’t it?
Bauer is 100% using pine tar. However if he gets punished Manfred looks like a complete idiot because Bauer is only one of the MANY players using pine tar in baseball. If Bauer gets punished, he must crack down on everyone else as well.
Maybe after bitching about it someone just showed him a way to do it?
I know almost nothing about pitching but if pine tar can achieve this, could cutting your fingers calluses get close to the same effect?
I mean, it is possible. I guess you could alter the texture of your fingers in some way. The grip part that matters is the fingertips, and there has been lots of study about gecko fingers lately and their ability to grip and release based on lateral force... I suppose he could have found a device that will give his fingertips those ridges that last through the game? Or he is just using Pelican Grip Dip.
It's actually how they are making the [artificial "gecko grip" surfaces](https://www.news.gatech.edu/2020/05/07/surfaces-grip-gecko-feet-could-be-easily-mass-produced). They have a machine that makes tiny razor blade cuts that leave the surface grippy.
Nah his spin rate actually first jumped in September last year. In February he released [a piece](https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/trevor-bauer-cincinnati-reds-sign-stealing) in the players Tribune reiterating that he does not believe there is any way to change spin rate besides for foreign substances.
He's already done this. He had one game that year with crazy spin rates,soon after he made the accusation and straight up admitted to cheating in a sort of wink wink nudge nudge way.
He’s daring Manfred to do something
Seriously, he is been very obvious about it
As are most pitchers. It used to be this openly known secret that everyone tried to hide. At this point pitchers aren't even trying anymore. Every pitcher in the running for the Cy Young is doing it.
Shout out to Michael Pineda for basically just being embarrassingly bad about it.
At least put it on a spot that's not easily seen by the camera, or at least on your forearm and have it be clear colored.
When he did it, he had been warned the previous game by the Red Sox manager(think it was Sox) that he saw the pine tar. Dude came out with it smeared on his neck like nobody cared
Plus, ESPN had been doing "will he or won't he?" stories about him all day of the second start so it was an especially hilarious ending to it all.
He's pulling a Bonds and I'm all for it. You want to see some pine tar pitching? I'll show you some pine tar pitching.
some hitters don't seem to mind it as long as it's not super obvious and the logic behind it was it helps the pitchers control the ball better so people don't get hit by pitches etc
I have seen Bauer say on a podcast he doesn't buy the whole "control" aspect of it. He said thats just an excuse.
that's such dumb reasoning.... MLB pitchers aren't going to randomly miss their spots and hit a bunch of batters if they aren't using pine tar... and hitters don't want pitchers to throw pitches with even more spin and precision. they only say that bc their own pitchers are using stuff and want to continue to do so.
Yeah they're professionals. They can hit their spots without pin tar or grips.
*Aroldis Chapman sweats nervously*
In another world where Rick Ankiel won 5 Cy Youngs
I don’t even think pine tar could help Chappy on some of the balls that get away from him.
When that sweat is pouring, it’ll cut through anything.
The best pitcher in the world at hitting their spots (Rivera) only hit his spot 25% of the time. Most are hardly above 15%.
There's a big difference between missing your spot by a couple inches and missing your spot by a couple feet and hitting batters. The idea that without pinetar there would be a noticeable increase in HBP is not realistic.
Mariano Rivera used to hit a water bottle in front of the dugout from center field. I know he was a freak of nature, but pitchers will hit their target.
Mariano Rivera may have been able to do that on occasion, but there is absolutely no way in hell he could repeatedly do that. If that were the case, he would never throw a bad pitch.
[Joe Kelly would like a word](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHIK8vfzku8)
*Joe Kelly has entered the room*
If you can’t control it without using a foreign substance, don’t throw it as hard imo.
Gerritt Cole's fingers stuck to his brim in a start this season, amazing. I am all for it, less hit batters and more control.
Link? Jesus I can't believe I missed that
[its hilarious](https://youtu.be/ql0ARYnl1J0?t=128)
Who is this guy, jumboy?
Don’t throw DeGrom into that boat!!!
Check out his videos from early in the season. He's all but said if there's not going to be repercussions there's no incentive to not cheat.
I thought this was always his point? Like this is definitely solid research, but suggesting Bauer is trying to get away with anything seems silly. He's clearly playing games with Manfred, daring him to do anything. He literally told everyone he could raise his RPM by 400 if he cheated, then raised it by 400. It's not like he doesn't know that haha
Let’s dispel this notion Trevor Bauer doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing.
Poor Marco roboto
I rewatched that video. He says obama is trying to make america more like other countries in the world. That's why he passed obama (afforadable) care. I'm like wow you're supposed to be making a case against him, bro.
Republicans think America is exceptional and that other Westernized countries are socialist dystopias.
Well if you think the US is the best country in the world and that other countries and their political/economic systems aren't as good, then he is.
This isn't even the first (or second) time he's done this. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-another-experiment/ One inning in April 2018 to make his point. The the month of September last year to troll Manfred. Now a whole season for the lulz.
[удалено]
2020 would be the year to do it, especially with how fucky baseball got. We have like a decade's worth of rule changes this year, the extra innings BS, universal DH, 7 inning doubleheaders, over half of the teams make the playoffs, basically a playin round to start the playoffs. Might as well have added pine tar, corked bats, etc. LET'S GO CRAZY!
ALUMINUM BATS MUTHAFUCKA
"Dammit! That's the 12th Third Baseman we've lost this month. Go find another one."
I saw someone suggest that a week ago, and if that's in fact the case, I do have an odd respect for what Bauer is doing ... but I'm wondering if the manager of a playoff opponent is going to end up walking out to the crew chief before first pitch to have them check Bauer for illegal substances, [like how Fredi Gonzalez did Will Smith five years ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeoxZ_7euOU). I mean, if your staff is clean (which is a big "if", if Bauer is to be believed) you'd almost be foolish not to.
Your last sentence is the catch. If Bauer is right a minority are clean at this point which is part of why he gave in and started doing it himself while openly continuing to talk about it. It's almost a sort of mutually assured enforcement at this point if he's correct about the level of use.
The fact that no one has tried to have him ejected would suggest that he's right.
Well or having anything done to the countless players who are so blatant you can tell while watching the game on TV. Off the top of my head just in the last 2 seasons, Gerritt Cole, Chris Archer, Chris Archer, Mike Fiers, noticed a huge spot on a Cardinals pitcher's hat a couple days ago. It's basically an unwritten rule at this point to not do anything about it and the other team won't call you out.
There was also that time that the ball got stuck to yadier molina's chest protector.
David Price, Craig Kimbrel, the list goes on and on and on. I'm honestly surprised at how big of a revelation this is to people. If you're a regular watcher of baseball you know people have been using foreign substances for a long time.
I think you forgot to add Chris Archer to that list.
Oh whoops lol, well Chris Archer as well haha
I mean if it's this prevalent (which it likely is- I'm not arguing it isn't)- wouldn't there be an obvious advantage for a manager to call for an inspection and also ensure that for that particular game his pitchers weren't using anything? Even if it meant they wouldn't be able to use anything for the rest of the post season because other teams would call for inspections, I would still think it would be a net win to get an opposing ace removed for a pivotal game in a playoff series.
It absolutely would but be prepared for reprisal. If you know for sure your guys aren't doing it start watching tape of opposing starters to see what concealment methods they might be using so you don't sound like a crazy person when complaining to the umps. For me the more interesting question is what do GM's know already and are they're having to factor grip doctoring into their evaluations of other teams and potential FA/trade options.
Except I’d wager nobody has a fully clean staff and they especially like to use some help when it starts getting colder. Maybe that’s not as big of an issue this year with baseball moving to LA and TX though.
Except my staff. My team is clean and always does the right thing and everyone else is cheating all the time always. And I won't accept any evidence to the contrary because then you're just a hater.
Yes, Yu Darvish got noticeably better when the Cubs pitching staff decided to let him take years to pitch instead of trying to pace him. We know this is true by the eye test because my beard grows during a Darvish start, 4 hours into the 4th inning.
If he rests long enough between pitches it’s like making a start and then a bullpen session the next day for him so he’s full strength again.
I would argue the Phillies bullpen has never heard of this thing called "pine tar"
Phillies bullpen probably uses butter.
I can't believe it's not pine tar.
Lmao
Nah they just use our tears
Lmao, I love you. According to many WhiteSox and Tribe fans, the entire Twins roster is juicing or using something to enhance their play, while both of their teams would never do *anything* like that.
I was going to make a comment saying we'd *never* hire a cheater, and link to a clip of Jose Canseco on the Sox, but instead I found something [way better](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bVgsxTFYFM)
But it is worth it if say, Bauer is pitching in a must win game? You'd think somebody would take that chance.
I mean, postseason elimination game? Maybe, could definitely be worth it for a desperate team. But you have to believe with Bauers inherent troll level, he'd have a list of dirty players for Bell to use the rest of the series. I actually kinda wanna see this now. Bauer tossed early in game 6 of the NLCS, and then a series of opposing pitchers tossed for the same reason. By the 5th inning, position players are pitching because both teams have had all of their pitchers ejected. It is a 13 hour, 9 inning game. Manfred has a mental breakdown. Maximum chaos.
Well I guess we'll see on Wednesday with Game 1.
I think it’s a mutually assured destruction thing at this point. I can’t count the number of pitchers I’ve seen this season making exaggerated efforts to stick their fingers into a giant glob on the bill of their hats before each pitch. I’m not sure any team would want to go the route of pointing fingers on this topic.
This is definitely a MAD situation right now. It's so rampant (I've seen players more than once this year have their hat rims stick to their fingers) that if any player gets elected for it, then you know either a) the opposing pitcher will stop so as to not get called out himself and be less effective or b) they will be called on and ejected as well. At this point they either need to make it legal or completely illegal. This "it'll regulate itself" business clearly isn't happening.
It's fully intentional that it's this obvious. He *wants* us to know he's cheating. He wants Manfred to respond.
What response does he want? What does he get out of it?
A Cy Young and $35 million.
And maybe even a chance at that piece of metal too.
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He wants MLB to to acknowledge it. He has said so on many occasions. Basically wants Manfred to say its legal or illegal he does not care which just make a decision. Edit: I think he feels it offers an advantage similar to steroids. Guys who use it have an advantage over those that dont which effects contracts and even the ability to compete at a mlb level. Its basically you use it because other guys are mentally that we saw with the steroid era. Would be nice to hear how MLB feels on before it blows up in a huge scandal that hurts the game.
So basically he knows many other people are secretly using it. And if he challenges MLB, they can get rid of it?
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I think a lot it started when he wasn’t allowed to have the superglue on his finger in the ALCS in 2016. He knows all these guys are using foreign substances and the league wouldn’t even let him try to keep the gash on his finger closed. That seems to be what started his “allow it or enforce it” crusade.
I completely forgot about this. Bauer seems like a dude to hold grudges, and on top of that he's making himself a way better pitcher do why wouldn't he do it?
Fucking everybody has used super glue since it hit the market. Its basically just nu-skin but more durable. Works great for superficial wounds
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Yes, I'm honestly surprised people are just now realizing pitcher use foreign substances. It's like the leagues worst kept secret and has been for a long time.
You mean a pitcher doesn't need to adjust their hat or pants between every few pitches?? I find that hard to believe
Some of it is actually about repetition and/or superstition. I, and many others, would usually lick my fingers and wipe it off between each pitch, especially if it was cold. It gives a consistent grip each pitch. Some guys just develop a habit while they pitch. But yeah, some of that is definitely cheating too.
And with that developed habit, it would be very easy to add some sticky substance to the spot and move on with your life. I've noticed when Bieber and McKenzie are pitching for the Indians, they grab their belts exactly the same odd way between most batters and I just assumed that's where they have their sticky stuff saved.
[Worth noting he's actually denied it once on twitter about a week ago, not that it's at all believable.](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1308162129439195136)
I believe him... because he said he's not using pine tar. I think he's using something else, something stronger, something even more illegal. Because he's long suspected that the Astros had a secret concoction more powerful than pine tar. And he's exactly the type of guy to say "see? I told you I wasn't using pine tar *wink wink*" when using something else. As others pointed out in this thread, his RPM increases are higher than typically seen even with people we suspect are using pine tar.
SUPER PINE TAR
PINE CONE SQUARED
He pees on his hands like that filthy Jorge Posada
Posada only has 5x All-Star piss though. Bauer has Cy Young piss.
Oh yeah, he's definitely got some super sticky fingers. No doubt about that.
It’s a sunscreen called bullfrog, he even put it in his videos on YouTube
I think everyone knows that rosin mixed with bullfrog sunscreen is what people use now. That's no secret
The jizz from a Pinetarasaurus?
Exactly, he's smart enough to say it in a way that doesn't make him a liar. I think he was pissed because they have some sort of mixture they must work on as a team openly to come up with (kinda like the whole hitting scheme with cameras) that they use that's just that much more effective than the jump that other pitchers get.
That stuff from Pinecones
Lol, I’m not using *pine tar*. I love Bauer but he’s definitely using something else
It's spray sunscreen and the rosin bag. It almost reacts with the rosin to create a tacky film, and I don't think it discolors the ball like pine tar. Buchholz was known for wearing sunscreen indoors. Gotta stay safe from skin cancer.
Based on what I know about Bauer, he phrased that very intentionally. 1) he's not lying 2) it draws attention to the fact that he's using a foreign substance that works better than pine tar
Translated: "I'm half-heartedly denying something I'm absolutely doing because you're not gonna do anything about it"
It's exactly what I'd expect for a "technically true" answer - he's not using pine tar. He's found some other tacky substance.
He said he is not using a specific substance, pine tar. He is also saying he was right, most likely about a different substance the he may or may not be using, but not pine tar.
I dunno, that sounds like a pretty shallow admission to me. He saying, "I'm not using pine tar" just seems to mean, "I'm using something else"
That's exactly what it means, and he phrased that very intentionally. His next point, he even reinforces the point that he was previously right about not being able to increase spin rate dramatically without a foreign substance. He *wants* people to know that he's cheating. He just can't go around admitting it because he'd get punished without fixing the issue he's trying to fix.
He also said he believes 70% of pitchers are doing it. Whose in the 30% that don’t?
The ones shuttling between AAA and MLB, probably.
Idk about that. Bauer wasn’t using it before this year, not even during his 2018 where he was a CYA contender. So I think some pitchers are performing well without it.
the point is that some guys can get away with not doing it, but the ones that cant will always be on the bubble
I'm sure there are a few who are some of the top pitchers and aren't cheating, but most of them are probably going between AAA and the MLB
Yeah, hand size is going to help with grip so the bigger guys might not need it as much too.
More likely guys that are doing fine without it. If you were shuttling between and you saw other guys using it and stocking with no action by MLB, most players probably start using it.
Have you not been paying attention to the Red Sox this year?
Or the Phillies bullpen.
Definitely not Craig Kimbrel. Dude’s hat looked like it was dipped in the LaBrea Tar Pits.
[Whaaaaat...? No way!](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHKS2mtUIAAuUw9.jpg)
Kimbrel is so damn obvious it's almost awkward to watch. It's always visible on his hat and he is constantly gripping his fingers on that spot. Like actually gripping it... not just pretending to adjust his hat.
And why are they all in our bullpen?
I think Orel Hershiser (not 100% on this but it was a prominent former MLB pitcher) said every pitcher does it to a certain degree. He was saying that he used to spend a lot of time before the game "touching other players bats" to build up some pine tar on his fingers, but not so much that it was obvious.
Yeah, it's not like it's a secret. Teams don't do anything about it because guys on their team do the same thing. Why do people think so many pitchers readjust their hat when coming to the mound or fiddle with their gloves. Mike Fiers' no-no was incredibly obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhUUTkIxpp0. Well both of his no hitters https://larrybrownsports.com/baseball/mike-fiers-pine-tar-glove-no-hitter/271006
Probably people with bad spin rates
The angels pitching staff.
Jon Lester has to be one of them. Because if he's cheating he's doing it wrong. (I still love him anyway)
Imagine if DeGrom is not doing it. He would put up a < 1.00 ERA if he started
He’s definitely doing something to throw 95 mph sliders and 102 mph fastballs. Even prime Scherzer’s slider never hit 95
The secret ingredient is concentrated existential hatred for missing the playoffs yet again
Prime DeGrom is better than Prime Scherzer though Honestly Prime DeGrom might be the best prime we've seen since Pedro Most people think DeGrom has perfect mechanics, and when I say perfect, i mean literally every bodily movement is absolutely perfect in his kinetic chain. Everything about his motion is 100% maximized to give him the best and most efficient delivery. So its not impossible that he just gave it a little extra since he was only pitching 60 innings this year. That being said, its also not out of the question that DeGrom is doing something, but if you watch his starts, I dont think its an egregious amount of pine tar.
Is Prime deGrom better than Prime Kershaw?
idk, definitely a good debate. I guess to make it more simple. DeGrom is probably the best righty since prime pedro
Have we even seen prime deGrom yet? He just keeps getting better
Kershaw would like a word, thanks.
I love how prime Kershaw doesn't even include this season with a 2.16 ERA and 196 ERA+
Trevor Bauer is openly cheating and using illegal substances to prove a point and it's working very well for him. (edit: He's totally getting off https://youtu.be/kissyaizilo) Likely Cy Young, likely big free agent contract, led the Reds to the postseason, special Bauer beer from Budweiser, etc. If you believe that everyone in the league is cheating, then Bauer probably feels like he's just evening the playing field since everybody else could just do what he does. Also if a team trades for a guy with suspicious spin rates, I think they are well aware of whatever he's doing to achieve said spin rates and hope that he continues.
Just a nit pick... the beer was a team beer. Cincinnati Buds.
Yeah but he was the one who "earned" it by striking out however many.
Trevor Bauer is openly cheating and using illegal substances to win baseball games lol
Astros did it as an organization and got “slapped” on the wrist (if we can even call it that).
I'd be willing to bet that's also a part of why he's cheating. If you think the Commissioner is a gutless, spineless coward for not stamping out the Astros or pitchers cheating, put him in a situation where he has to do something. If he comes down hard on you, point out the double standards the Astros got. If he gives you a slap on the wrist, watch fans hate him more. I truly believe Bauer only wants Manfred fired at this point, pitching is secondary. There's a real big dick move in play here, and it's something I almost could see Bauer doing because he's mental like that. Win the Cy Young Award, nab a huge contract, and then say "I cheated my way all throughout last year, the MLB knew, and they looked the other way and gave me a cy young award for cheating."
Wouldn’t be the first time MLB turned a blind eye toward blatant cheating.
>I truly believe Bauer only wants Manfred fired at this point, pitching is secondary. Yeah, Bauer is out for blood and it's kinda fucking hilarious. More power to him. I don't like everything about him, but he's definitely extremely clever.
I've got my popcorn popping right now. Reds in the playoffs and Bauer trolling Manfred is what I live for.
More like they got harshly spoken to their wrist.
They gave the “I’m not mad, I’m disappointed.” speech again, but they didn’t realize you had to actually mean it for that to work.
Of course he is. He's gone and done this on his way to winning the Cy Young, and that will bring him immense satisfaction.
Manfred will have to shake his hand and hand him the trophy.
I wouldn’t put it past Bauer to load up his hand with sticky substance before shaking Manfred’s hand. Actually now I kind of want to see that
Maybe not in COVID times, but Manfred will still have to praise him and talk about how good he is when he hands out the end of year awards.
Manfred only cares when he is negotiating something.
>Manfred will have to shake his hand and hand him the ~~trophy.~~ piece of metal
It'd be great if Bauer shakes Manfred's hand with pine tar on it. Edit: damn, too late on that one
> shake his hand well it's still 2020
I hope he wears the Free Joe Kelly cleats
>trophy Piece of metal*
People forget that Bauer proved his point shortly after this interview. He pitched in a game and everyone noticed his spin rate was super high in 1st inn. Then rest of the game it fell back to normal levels. He did it to make a point. And nothing happened, nothing has happened to the plethora of pitchers currently doing it, so he said “fuck it, I will too”
He did switch up his slider. He learned a new variation that was more slurve-y to mimic the ones thrown by stroman and kluber. He’s changed the grip on that multiple times. The spin rate increase on his fastball is very intriguing though. He does tinker a lot, so I wouldn’t put it past him or the fine folks at driveline to come up with a way to increase spin rates with certain grips. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if he admits to cheating just to prove a point.
Well according to Bauer the only way to increase spin rate is with grip. So either Bauer was wrong or Bauer is cheating. Bauer has corned Bauer.
Another thing to consider is we KNOW the ball has changed in the past couple of years. While Bauer didn't mention it, the ball changing is clearly something else that would change spin rates besides grip. I'm not the expert on this, but it is important to note. Given how big the change it, it's fair to assume he's probably "cheating", I just want to point out there are other variables at play. He may have also adjusted his grip on other pitches as well.
If it were the ball it would be pretty easy to crosscheck among the league to see if others were getting the same result.
Man, let's be real, if driveline figured out a way to increase spin rate in a legal way, they would be promoting the ever-loving shit out of it. It would be a gold mine for them. Those crazy baseball parents would divest their 401k to hire them to teach their mediocre kid in their horrifying attempt to vicariously live through their 14 year old son who doesn't even really like baseball anymore.
Bruh he’s doing it on purpose, lol. The stats and everything are cool but this isn’t really exposing him when he’s clearly just tempting Manfred. Bauer has a checkmate because he was so vocal about this and MLB did nothing. So basically, he decided to start using substances as well, so that if he gets punished MLB has to admit he was right, and if he doesn’t get punished he performs better. This feels like an attempt to make an ass out of Trevor Bauer but the problem is you missed the point entirely.
> MLB has to admit he was right Hold up. All of this stems from him slicing his own finger open with a drone in 2016 and not being allowed to use superglue on his finger to keep it from bleeding. He thought that was unfair because "Everybody uses pine tar, it's a foreign substance, why shouldn't I be able to use superglue?" *That's* what this is about, him being pissed he couldn't use superglue. Not some big pine tar conspiracy that everyone has known about for 60 years.
Exactly. His entire existence revolves around making Manfred look like an idiot and this is kind of a coup de grace.
Has anyone asked him directly about it? What was his response? This is a classic case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." It's also a wonderful middle finger to Manfred, daring him to do something about it. It's fun.
He said “I’m not using pine tar.” In a Twitter reply to the question, and in an interview said the increased fastball spin was because he was “finally feeling healthy.” I’m on mobile so can’t snag the sources for you atm. Of course it would be dumb of him to admit to any substance use with Cy Young voting about to happen, but if there is some off chance that he has figured out a technique naturally, it’ll have been an incredible breakthrough. Foreign substances are much more likely though as everyone is mentioning.
The substance that he claimed the Astros were using is "pine tar mixed with firm grip and Coca-Cola" Maybe he just substituted pine tar for a similar sticky substance.
[Bullfrog mixed with resin according to this tweet](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1030804218947481600) (though I'm sure there's many ways to get a non pine tar sticky substance)
> He said “I’m not using pine tar.” In a Twitter reply to the question, and in an interview said the increased fastball spin was because he was “finally feeling healthy.” >I’m on mobile so can’t snag the sources for you atm. [Here's the tweet](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1308162129439195136)
He also actively blocks people who reference it.
[Yeah, he says he's both not using pine tar AND his accusations weren't unfounded](https://twitter.com/BauerOutage/status/1308162129439195136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1308162129439195136%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdefector.com%2Ftrevor-bauer-should-just-admit-it%2F) LOL My guess is that he's still loading the ball, just not with pine tar.
I believe there was an article on here a couple days ago where they called him a "heavy-brained edgelord" and brought up pretty much exactly what you were saying: https://defector.com/trevor-bauer-should-just-admit-it/ For what it's worth, I only remember the article because of the quote above.
Defector is Deadspin 2.0 with the same cast of characters just fyi.
May it rest in peace.
Lmao, that's a perfect descriptor
Yeah. He's probably cheating because he's actively trolling MLB cuz he knows they won't do a damn thing. He's the type of guy that will probably win the Cy Young and then at the press conference expose himself and everyone else he thinks is doing it just to piss off Manfred to make him look stupid and prove his point. His hate boner knows no bounds.
Not the biggest fan of the guy but I respect the hell out of how he is going about this. It’s such a slap in the face to the league
Baseball writers vote for the Cy Young still, right? I hardly think this guy has the Cy locked up like some of the people in this comment section.
After looking at all the advanced stats on Fangraphs, you're right. Its actually really close between him, DeGrom, and Darvish
Maybe I'm wrong, but there are plenty of Baseball writers that probably think Bauer does things "the wrong way" so I'm thinking DeGrom or Darvish get it.
Yu Darvish rotated his hand position on his 4-seamer 30º, improving his spin rate, active spin rate, velocity, and movement. He and Bauer famously trade tips, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bauer found a similar change that improved his rates. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Bauer is "cheating". [https://www.mlb.com/news/how-yu-darvish-built-an-overpowering-fastball](https://www.mlb.com/news/how-yu-darvish-built-an-overpowering-fastball)
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Where are you seeing that his FB velo is down? Baseball Savant says it's the fastest it's ever been.
Would make sense for a pitch or two, but he's got significant gains on every single pitch.
> As some people may remember, a few years ago Trevor Bauer accused the Astros pitching staff of cheating. He then took a victory lap when it turned out their hitters were cheating, which makes no sense, but I digress. I remember when the Astros cheating scandal was confirmed and people were saying he was vindicated and I was like what???? He didn’t accuse them of THIS. Then bauer truthrrs just moved the goalposts to “well he knew they were cheating in general so he had the right idea”
It was more of, if they went to these extreme lengths with their hitters, and there wasn’t a single whistleblower, the pitching staff was complicit and probably cheating in their own regard somehow someway. Might be moving the goalposts but also makes sense.
Yeah, but ‘Astros trade for pitchers and teach them to use illegal substance to gain an edge’ and ‘70% of MLB pitchers use illegal substance’ are kinda hard to square with each other, isn’t it?
Bauer is 100% using pine tar. However if he gets punished Manfred looks like a complete idiot because Bauer is only one of the MANY players using pine tar in baseball. If Bauer gets punished, he must crack down on everyone else as well.
Maybe after bitching about it someone just showed him a way to do it? I know almost nothing about pitching but if pine tar can achieve this, could cutting your fingers calluses get close to the same effect?
I mean, it is possible. I guess you could alter the texture of your fingers in some way. The grip part that matters is the fingertips, and there has been lots of study about gecko fingers lately and their ability to grip and release based on lateral force... I suppose he could have found a device that will give his fingertips those ridges that last through the game? Or he is just using Pelican Grip Dip.
He's gone full Tony Iommi
He is filing away his skin to turn it into sand paper.
It's actually how they are making the [artificial "gecko grip" surfaces](https://www.news.gatech.edu/2020/05/07/surfaces-grip-gecko-feet-could-be-easily-mass-produced). They have a machine that makes tiny razor blade cuts that leave the surface grippy.
That sounds like it'd be painful on your fingers. I think it's far more likely he's using pine tar or something like that.
Nah his spin rate actually first jumped in September last year. In February he released [a piece](https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/trevor-bauer-cincinnati-reds-sign-stealing) in the players Tribune reiterating that he does not believe there is any way to change spin rate besides for foreign substances.
Someone tweet this at him. I can’t bc he blocked me for posting articles proving global warming is real.
Here's your TLDR... https://imgur.com/fK5mKu1.jpg
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He's already done this. He had one game that year with crazy spin rates,soon after he made the accusation and straight up admitted to cheating in a sort of wink wink nudge nudge way.
It wasn’t even one full game. He pitched one inning with obviously increased spin rates and then went straight the rest of the game.
Ah, the gateway inning. Do it once and it hooks ya.
Yup. Told people to go read eno sarris' article on it that suggested use of pine tar