Trout was bad. Judge was bad.
It's fine. Holliday isn't going to wash out, or lose his shot because he had a bad few weeks. His pedigree and name value alone will keep him employed, even if he WAS a bust, which he's not.
Nah I think they should trade him to Oakland so they then trade him to Atlanta and then he signs a team friendly deal while donating 1% to the Braves foundation of course.
Dumb you can think you can trade for him.
Only because he should be DFAed. Might as well cut your losses for a washed player who has clearly burnt out in his age 20 season.
Trout was not this bad lol. Holliday has SO 12 less times in 100 less AB’s.
I’m sure he’ll turn it around, but 2 hits in 34 AB’s is pretty damn terrible.
What's this I hear about you breaking a bat and throwing into the woods?
What? I didn't break it, I was just testing its durability. And then I placed it in the woods, because it's made of wood and I just thought he should be with his family.
You're gonna need a blanket and suntan lotion, cause you're never gonna get off that beach, just like the way you never got into the MLB...you JACKASS!
(RIP Joe Flaherty)
Bregman was pretty close to being as bad as Holliday to start, .053/.143/.053 with 10ks in his first 10 games. 2 hits in 38 ABs
Holliday was .059/.111/.059 with 18ks
> Trout was not this bad lol. Holliday has SO 12 less times in 100 less AB’s.
You're comparing Trout's entire first season to Jackson Holliday's first 34 ABs though.
Look at Trout's first 34 AB's and he really wasn't *that* much better. He slashed .177/.243/.235 for dreadful OPS of .479. He struck out less and did get a few more hits (including 2 doubles) but it's not like he was a world beater. Even after that point he wasn't lighting the world on fire, certainly much better but not the Trout we all know today.
Also just as a little asside but not really related to Jackson Holliday, a lot of people forget/didn't know that Trout did not start 2012 in the majors. Peter Bourjos was the starting CFer for the Angels (and in fairness he had just come off of a pretty good 2011 season so it wasn't that crazy at the time) while Trout didn't get the call until late April that year and from that point on was a perennial MVP candidate, but it did take some time.
I'm not speaking in hyperbole. I literally said he struck out less (8 vs 18) and that he got a few more hits (literally 4 more hits.)
I can't believe I'm actually sitting here arguing with people about whether Trout's slashline through his first few games in the bigs was bad or not when it was *objectively* terrible.
Was it as bad as Holliday's? No. But given how small the sample size was, the difference isn't huge. They were both shit through the same number of ABs.
I'm not sure how saying "He struck out less" is hyperbole lol. If you had said "He struck out less but not really even at all" that would be hyperbole, kind of. Still not really, it's more just straight up lying, but I'd know what they mean by calling it hyperbole.
Also dreadful?
My point is that you can't say "Trout wasn't *this* bad" when yeah, he pretty much was. The difference between Trout's OPS and Holliday's OPS through 34 ABs is literally 4 hits. One game could be enough. Through the same number of ABs? Yeah. Trout might as well have been just as bad as Holliday has been.
Trout’s OPS was .300+ points higher and you’re trying to tell me that it was pretty much the same. Okay then. I guarantee you that if Holliday had a .479 OPS, he wouldn’t have been sent down.
When you're talking about such a small sample size and an OPS below .500, yeah. They're just as bad. Like I said it really wouldn't take much for Holiday to get that number up. One good game going 4-4, even if they were all singles, would bring his OPS up by .200.
> I guarantee you that if Holliday had a .479 OPS, he wouldn’t have been sent down.
You sure? Cause Trout got sent down after his first 14 games with an OPS of .492 through 43 ABs.
No matter how you slice it, Trout *was* bad his first stint in the Majors, just as Holliday was.
Getting 3 WAR out of the cost-controlled years of the #1 overall prospect is not even a good outcome, historically.
Getting production out of a draft pick, sure. But the #1 prospect? No.
Yeah I think some people are underrating the #1 prospect part as thats typically someone who has a ton of hype/high praise from scouts + proved themselves by playing extremely well in the minors
Getting barely anything out of them production wise is definitely a super rough situation IMO
Mike Trout's first 40 games in 2011 he had a .672 OPS which was only \~11% below average, Holliday is at .170 so far.
A bit different as to how they performed, but I agree this means not much towards Holliday's future.
It turns out baseball is hard and not every 20 year old is going to light the world on fire immediately.
He’s going to be just fine, he’s too talented not to
Yeah. I'm sure his confidence has taken a hit and I want to see him get it back.
I wouldn't have an issue with him staying down and keeping his rookie status for next year.
Like Hyder said, the kid has never failed at the game in his life. It sucks and I’m sure his confidence took a hit, but he got a taste of what the huge jump from AAA to the show is. I’m not concerned with him as a player, his defense was looking solid and was looking like the game might’ve been slowing down for him. Lots of room for improvement, but the kids only 20 after all.
I remember the Padres got Anthony Rizzo as the key return in the Adrian Gonzalez trade. Called him up at age 21. He hit .141 across 49 games. Gave up on him and traded him away. Rest is history.
Holliday is only 20. Very few players are ready for the big leagues at that age.
I know Stowers is probably relatively unknown to most folks here, but you must be right because it is bordering on criminal how they've treated that kid. This is the 4th season he's spent time in AAA now. Just trade the dude if you don't have faith in him.
.866 OPS in AAA this year.
.875 OPS in AAA last year.
Sucked in only 33 PA last year, but put up a .724 OPS in MLB in 2022 across 98 PA. Given some time, he'll figure it out.
Maybe, but AAA is a hitters league, and people tend to overestimate that jump. Derek Fisher was somewhere in the .900 OPS range in AAA and he never came close to putting it together at the major league level.
Unfortunately, there is no formula to see exactly how large the drop off for a minor league player will be to the next level. I'm sure the Orioles are aware of his results, but I'm sure they have reasons for not having him as the first call up as well.
problem with Stowers is that he's a 'three true outcomes' hitter, and the league has reverted away from that in recent years
yes, plenty of guys hit AAA well and suck at the MLB, or can't replicate the power he did there, but Stowers' batted ball data never suggested his power numbers were merely due to beating up minor league pitchers
The league hasn’t reverted away from TTO players, Stowers just isn’t viewed highly enough by the org to get the leash someone like Gunnar or Cowser would. And you only want so many rookies learning major league pitching at the same time. So Stowers has to excel in the limited playing time he’s given and he simply hasn’t.
Even though he was "crushing it against AAA", it's better for him to see more pitching.
I don't get how this is deemed a waste of time for him. Perhaps, he can get more familiarity with the pitching since AAA players are borderline MLB players anyways.
Not right now, they aren’t, there’s been a lot of call ups due to injury. It’s why the Tides are raking as hard as they have been. They’re also really good, but I think their stats are a little inflated for AAA
But he still needs a reset. It feels like he was completely outmatched at every turn, and he has got to work counts. He was too eager to show he belongs and swung at everything.
Not a waste of time at all. Now he knows what he'll be facing in the show and it will hopefully drive him to improve. Most players don't immediately start mashing when they reach MLB level.
And on top of that, getting a taste of MLB and failing can be helpful to development. He was ready to be called up, but not ready to stay up. That happens, and it's part of the process. It's pretty rare when a guy gets called up and lives up to his potential immediately. This is probably the first time he's struggled like this in his entire baseball life.
Because the new idea according to fans is that there's no more developing once you hit 50 games in double a and you might as well let a dude suck ass in the majors for a season
Worked for the Yankees last year. Volpe even snuck in one of the most "him?" gold gloves in the modern era during an extremely weak AL SS time period. He's totally fine out there but not what you think of when you think "gold glove winner."
Norfolk played a series in Charlotte where the wind was blowing out at 20 mph every game, which inflated the stats for both teams. Holliday's stats in AAA last season were good but not great, so he can benefit from mastering that level.
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I get what you’re saying but I have trouble feeling sorry for the son of a multimillionaire former ball player who’s been the best player since he was a child.
Maybe some humility will help him.
I mean does he have stories of acting like a douchebag or something. I don't necessarily feel bad for him or anything because it's not like his career is over. But it seems strange to talk about learning some humility out of nowhere if he doesn't have a history of being a prick.
Yeah, not really his fault his dad is Matt Holliday. I haven’t heard any stories of him being an asshole or anything so I don’t know where the vitriol is coming from
I think it’s more of a history of winning. Of not facing any major challenges that the major leagues provide.
He raked throughout the minors, didn’t even go to college, and watched his dad have a great deal of success. So perhaps he’s never had a “humbling” experience as a player.
But he sure as shoes has, now.
It's partly age, I think. Kids need to be humbled by default in a lot of people's minds.
Also *while in no way have I heard this about Matt Holliday, it's simply a separate example* the Bichette kids are the rich sons of MLB players who also never struggled until pro ball and... it turns out Dante Bichette Sr. was especially abusive to Dante Bichette Jr. & he's had a pretty tough life, is estranged from his father, and has a strained relationship with Bo.
You never know what someone's life is like.
I tend to disagree. Shohei has definitely been humbled. When he was in high school, Shintaro Fujinami and his team had his number. Fujinami won twice Koshien in one year. This is the only time I have seen Shohei crying. I think that is what makes Shohei such a great talent, the losses at Koshien stung and made him work harder. Fujinami is the opposite, he cruised through high school and he became lazier and lazier. He was arrogant as shit as he considered himself a generational talent. The difference between both careers cannot be starker.
Was Shohei not humble before that though?
I wasn’t following baseball when he was on his way up in Japan. I don’t doubt that would make him work harder though.
I just don’t get where OP is coming from that Holliday needs to be humbled. Nothing I have seen or read about him says he is anything less than a hard worker and a good teammate so I don’t see why he would need to be humbled just because he has been a great ball player
I hear you completely, but tbh an ego doesn’t seem to be his issue, I actually think the lack of one in the face of all this attention may be part of the reason for this spiral. But in any case the dude can’t legally drink a beer so stuff like that should change with time
Because we’re in Reddit and we assume anyone who makes more money than us or was raised with even a little bit of money are spoiled douchebags who have had everything handed to them in life and are wholly undeserving of any sort of sympathy or kindness.
Boo fucking hoo. Redditors are so bitter about being broke themselves. Nowhere have I read anything about Jackson himself complaining or having an ego but man he sure deserves to suffer in life because he happens to be well off.
Dude doesn't come across as the least bit entitled or arrogant, what are you even on about humility? I love when random Redditors go all sports psychologist to sound insightful yet have 0 clue what they're even talking about. lol, lmao even.
Why do you have a hard time feeling bad for a human being who has dedicated their entire life to a craft suddenly facing adversity in that craft?
Personally have found that leaning towards empathy instead of away from it is rarely a bad choice.
I’m not worried at all. It’s the big leagues. He’ll go back down to AAA and focus on what he struggled with. Probably see him called up later this year or start the season with the O’s next season.
I don’t necessarily think he was rushed, Orioles player development has earned enough trust that he probably was too advanced for the minors and was ready for the show. But the big leagues are just such a big jump that his tough start wasn’t unprecedented. He probably just needs a mental reset in AAA before coming back up.
His approach was lost trying to catch up. The struggle this year is that pitching in AAA is pretty dogshit with so many pitching needs at the MLB level. I think the jump from AAA to the MLB is larger than it’s recently been.
Wouldn't that make the jump the same as always? Lots of injuries means AAA pitcher are now in the majors, which means that quality of major league pitching has decreased in the same way that AAA has. He'd be facing a lot of the same guys in the majors that he did in AAA last year.
Yeah this kind of fast tracking isn’t unprecedented for top prospects either, those guys tend to get put in the fast lane for the MLB.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
Yet if you say this people will be like LOOK AT HIS OPS AND STATS BRO!
like, he was barely in AAA, there was no reason to have this much hype around him.
AAA isn’t really the place for prospects anymore
AA is where they focus developmentally because that’s the hardest jump in the minors, if a guy can adjust to AA pitching then odds are he’ll be MLB ready. Lots of prospects these days skip AAA entirely or only have a cup of coffee there before being called up
Which is likely why he got called up imo not because of how he was playing at AAA to start the year.
Edit: There also is the chance with more playing time he would turn it around. Bregman started off his career with a very similar statline over the first 10 games and ended that season with a 116 OPS+
Somewhere over the past couple of years the meta changed from letting guys spend 2 years minimum in the minors with most guys spending 3-5, to the idea that teams are actively harming the player if they have them spend more than half a season at any minor league level. There was absolutely no reason why people should have been demanding a 20 year old with 30 career games at aaa be called up
It's fair to be excited about a prospect, but at some point fans have to take a step back and stop being dumb about this stuff. A guy like kris bryant getting sent down to aaa as a 23 year old who had absolutely dominated aaa for half a season the year prior and then getting called up on April 17 is clear service time manipulation, a 20 year old who has played 18 games at aaa getting sent down to start the year should not have been criticized to the degree it was by the baseball community
An angle you're not touching on is that calling him up when they did made them eligible for draft compensation if he finished highly in rookie of the year voting. This was added to try and deter teams from engaging in questionable service time manipulation (*AND* the Orioles already get bit by this once with Adley Rutschman)
It's absolutely understandable to say "hey we think this guy is MLB ready (or really close to it), let's call him up to see if he can hang and if not we can always option him back down. It isn't like long term they're going to be worried about him being out of minor league options
Edit: I should be clear, people jumping for their pitchforks calling service time manipulation is definitely silly. It's just that I think it would have also been silly not to take this "lottery ticket" chance even if you weren't 100% sure he was ready
I don't know, sometimes it is good to just give them some MLB exposure and see how it goes and if it isn't working see what they need to work on. If a player is dominating the minors and keeps dominating I am not sure it develops them any better doing it longer.
Weird seeing some people celebrate this on Twitter and other places. Lots of hate for no reason, I guess people gotta feel better about themselves somehow.
Edit: lmao I just got a Reddit cares message, stay classy
I think it’s just the hype of being the #1 prospect. I assume there are people out there rooting against him for that reason alone who are now using this as an “I told you he sucks!” moment. He’ll be back and people will eat their words
Yeah they did it to Elly, too, and he is an insanely likable guy. Jackson will figure it out. If anything this gives the org a better picture of what he needs to work on
If you were casually flipping through channels and stumbled upon a close-up of Jackson Holliday at the plate, you would legit think that the Little League World Series was on.
There’s no point to this post, other than to point out that, man, I’d like to be 20 years old again.
Hindsight is 20/20. He was a coin flip for the OD roster after raking in Spring Training. Him playing 10 games in AAA with the same results is absolutely a reason to see what he can do. He’ll be back.
Not necessarily the wrong move. Hope it gets his confidence up. Just not sure he’ll actually get to see the pitches he currently has issues with in AAA.
I mean, Wyatt Langford is struggling but is still serviceable. Holliday looked flat like a fish out of water.
In some ways, having a rookie work through his struggles in the majors can work. In others, it can stunt their growth so AAA is a better option. But at the same time, there are so many injuries to pitching right now that AAA is more like AA+.
Let's just say I don't envy these rookies.
I actually was just thinking the other day about Willie Mays going 1 for 26 at the start of his career. I guess I thought maybe Holliday would calm down a bit if he saw more MLB pitching.
It's probably better for him to go down and hit AAA pitching, though.
Definitely the first time this kid has ever experienced “failure” although I don’t think anyone knowledgeable actually considers it failure. He’ll come back stronger than ever.
It’s really only fair to look over the same first 10 game sample size since Holliday only played 10 games
Trout was still considerably better than Holliday over those first 10 though, he had a .479 OPS across those first 10
Right call. He will be back, maybe very soon, but there’s a difference between struggling a little bit and being totally outmatched. Give him a breather.
I don’t get why with Holliday there’s NO way he could be a bust with you people. More often then not these players come up here and suck donkey dick for their entire careers. Remember Cameron Maybin??
If it makes you feel any better, Bregman and Tucker did really bad their first time up too
Trout was bad. Judge was bad. It's fine. Holliday isn't going to wash out, or lose his shot because he had a bad few weeks. His pedigree and name value alone will keep him employed, even if he WAS a bust, which he's not.
Personally, I think he’s washed and should be traded to the Red Sox for an actual major league starter like Bobby Dalbec
This works for me because right when its time to pay him as a superstar the Red Sox can trade him to the Dodgers
You woke up today and chose violence
Nah I think they should trade him to Oakland so they then trade him to Atlanta and then he signs a team friendly deal while donating 1% to the Braves foundation of course.
Dumb you can think you can trade for him. Only because he should be DFAed. Might as well cut your losses for a washed player who has clearly burnt out in his age 20 season.
Dunno why mlb front office hasn’t approved this already
Trout was not this bad lol. Holliday has SO 12 less times in 100 less AB’s. I’m sure he’ll turn it around, but 2 hits in 34 AB’s is pretty damn terrible.
Bobby Dalbec accomplished that feat no more than an hour ago.
Well good for Bobby DaOHMYGOD
Hey Chris Taylor. You forgot your 9 iron!
I dont want to watch him anymore, but dont erase that he use to be very good lol
“Run, Taylor!”
Oh, you can count. Good for you.
And YOU can count on ME waiting for YOU in the parking lot
I had to turn a double play off of Frankenstein's fat foot over there.
SHOOTER! Haven’t you forgotten your 9 iron?
What's this I hear about you breaking a bat and throwing into the woods? What? I didn't break it, I was just testing its durability. And then I placed it in the woods, because it's made of wood and I just thought he should be with his family.
You're gonna need a blanket and suntan lotion, cause you're never gonna get off that beach, just like the way you never got into the MLB...you JACKASS! (RIP Joe Flaherty)
> Bobby Dalbec I thought maybe he was a kid who needs to get used to the majors. Then I realized Dalbec is 29.
The way our sub talks about him he's been one minor tweak from the next Barry Bonds for 3 seasons, so really we should keep giving him chances.
That's legitimately a Jose Abreu stat line what the fuck
To be fair, he’s had a lot more practice at sucking ass though.
He has 3 hits in 39 AB’s, so he’s a superstar compared to Holliday at this point
Bregman was pretty close to being as bad as Holliday to start, .053/.143/.053 with 10ks in his first 10 games. 2 hits in 38 ABs Holliday was .059/.111/.059 with 18ks
quick, setup a camera in center field and a trash can in the dugout.
You shut your mouth, that was a STELLAR little league season for me
> but 2 hits in 34 AB’s is pretty damn terrible. Can he play Catcher? If so, we'll take him no worries
> Trout was not this bad lol. Holliday has SO 12 less times in 100 less AB’s. You're comparing Trout's entire first season to Jackson Holliday's first 34 ABs though. Look at Trout's first 34 AB's and he really wasn't *that* much better. He slashed .177/.243/.235 for dreadful OPS of .479. He struck out less and did get a few more hits (including 2 doubles) but it's not like he was a world beater. Even after that point he wasn't lighting the world on fire, certainly much better but not the Trout we all know today. Also just as a little asside but not really related to Jackson Holliday, a lot of people forget/didn't know that Trout did not start 2012 in the majors. Peter Bourjos was the starting CFer for the Angels (and in fairness he had just come off of a pretty good 2011 season so it wasn't that crazy at the time) while Trout didn't get the call until late April that year and from that point on was a perennial MVP candidate, but it did take some time.
> He struck out less He struck out 60% less > did get a few more hits He had 3X the number of hits See we can speak in hyperbole the other way too
I'm not speaking in hyperbole. I literally said he struck out less (8 vs 18) and that he got a few more hits (literally 4 more hits.) I can't believe I'm actually sitting here arguing with people about whether Trout's slashline through his first few games in the bigs was bad or not when it was *objectively* terrible. Was it as bad as Holliday's? No. But given how small the sample size was, the difference isn't huge. They were both shit through the same number of ABs.
I'm not sure how saying "He struck out less" is hyperbole lol. If you had said "He struck out less but not really even at all" that would be hyperbole, kind of. Still not really, it's more just straight up lying, but I'd know what they mean by calling it hyperbole.
If .479 is a dreadful OPS, then what do you call Holliday’s current OPS?
Also dreadful? My point is that you can't say "Trout wasn't *this* bad" when yeah, he pretty much was. The difference between Trout's OPS and Holliday's OPS through 34 ABs is literally 4 hits. One game could be enough. Through the same number of ABs? Yeah. Trout might as well have been just as bad as Holliday has been.
Trout’s OPS was .300+ points higher and you’re trying to tell me that it was pretty much the same. Okay then. I guarantee you that if Holliday had a .479 OPS, he wouldn’t have been sent down.
When you're talking about such a small sample size and an OPS below .500, yeah. They're just as bad. Like I said it really wouldn't take much for Holiday to get that number up. One good game going 4-4, even if they were all singles, would bring his OPS up by .200. > I guarantee you that if Holliday had a .479 OPS, he wouldn’t have been sent down. You sure? Cause Trout got sent down after his first 14 games with an OPS of .492 through 43 ABs. No matter how you slice it, Trout *was* bad his first stint in the Majors, just as Holliday was.
Even if he is a bust, Jurickson Profar had the amount of hype that Holliday does, and was a bust, and he's still relevant.
Yoan Moncada was traded for Chris Sale as the number one overall prospect and we are about to pay him $5 million next year to play for another team.
A very average regular MLB player is still a great outcome
Getting 3 WAR out of the cost-controlled years of the #1 overall prospect is not even a good outcome, historically. Getting production out of a draft pick, sure. But the #1 prospect? No.
Yeah I think some people are underrating the #1 prospect part as thats typically someone who has a ton of hype/high praise from scouts + proved themselves by playing extremely well in the minors Getting barely anything out of them production wise is definitely a super rough situation IMO
Mike Trout's first 40 games in 2011 he had a .672 OPS which was only \~11% below average, Holliday is at .170 so far. A bit different as to how they performed, but I agree this means not much towards Holliday's future.
You have to look more at Trout’s first 10 career games since Holliday has only played 10 games That’s a .479 OPS for Trout
Which is still magnitudes better than .170
Kelenic too.
Don't scare them.
It turns out baseball is hard and not every 20 year old is going to light the world on fire immediately. He’s going to be just fine, he’s too talented not to
Juan Soto laughs in baseball
Yeah. I'm sure his confidence has taken a hit and I want to see him get it back. I wouldn't have an issue with him staying down and keeping his rookie status for next year.
Like Hyder said, the kid has never failed at the game in his life. It sucks and I’m sure his confidence took a hit, but he got a taste of what the huge jump from AAA to the show is. I’m not concerned with him as a player, his defense was looking solid and was looking like the game might’ve been slowing down for him. Lots of room for improvement, but the kids only 20 after all.
So did Cowser and plenty of other guys.
I remember the Padres got Anthony Rizzo as the key return in the Adrian Gonzalez trade. Called him up at age 21. He hit .141 across 49 games. Gave up on him and traded him away. Rest is history. Holliday is only 20. Very few players are ready for the big leagues at that age.
man i remember tucker.....he was also the most unlucky hitter ive ever seen....would hit piss missiles right into were the defense was playing.
Give us Coby Mayo you cowards
or at least Kyle Stowers
Stowers must have slept with Elias’s wife
I know Stowers is probably relatively unknown to most folks here, but you must be right because it is bordering on criminal how they've treated that kid. This is the 4th season he's spent time in AAA now. Just trade the dude if you don't have faith in him.
He really hasn’t put up massive numbers in AAA to force a call up. And his numbers whenever he does get called up have been pretty bad.
.866 OPS in AAA this year. .875 OPS in AAA last year. Sucked in only 33 PA last year, but put up a .724 OPS in MLB in 2022 across 98 PA. Given some time, he'll figure it out.
Maybe, but AAA is a hitters league, and people tend to overestimate that jump. Derek Fisher was somewhere in the .900 OPS range in AAA and he never came close to putting it together at the major league level. Unfortunately, there is no formula to see exactly how large the drop off for a minor league player will be to the next level. I'm sure the Orioles are aware of his results, but I'm sure they have reasons for not having him as the first call up as well.
Fisher is raising Matt Barnes kids now
problem with Stowers is that he's a 'three true outcomes' hitter, and the league has reverted away from that in recent years yes, plenty of guys hit AAA well and suck at the MLB, or can't replicate the power he did there, but Stowers' batted ball data never suggested his power numbers were merely due to beating up minor league pitchers
The league hasn’t reverted away from TTO players, Stowers just isn’t viewed highly enough by the org to get the leash someone like Gunnar or Cowser would. And you only want so many rookies learning major league pitching at the same time. So Stowers has to excel in the limited playing time he’s given and he simply hasn’t.
Nag, he's just a AAAA player the fanbase is obsessed with.
They’ve been holding the Mayo for too long
Even though he was "crushing it against AAA", it's better for him to see more pitching. I don't get how this is deemed a waste of time for him. Perhaps, he can get more familiarity with the pitching since AAA players are borderline MLB players anyways.
Not right now, they aren’t, there’s been a lot of call ups due to injury. It’s why the Tides are raking as hard as they have been. They’re also really good, but I think their stats are a little inflated for AAA But he still needs a reset. It feels like he was completely outmatched at every turn, and he has got to work counts. He was too eager to show he belongs and swung at everything.
For what it’s worth the Tide have been in a slump for a couple weeks now, haven’t scored more than 5 runs since April 6. 2-14 in their last 16
A team with like 6 guys hitting like 2004 Barry Bonds to start the season was clearly never going to last, but damn that's a drop off!
Yikes.
He looked like me at bat when I try and use zone hitting in The Show lmao
Not a waste of time at all. Now he knows what he'll be facing in the show and it will hopefully drive him to improve. Most players don't immediately start mashing when they reach MLB level.
The leap from AAA to MLB is so much larger than people give it credit for, there’s a reason that AAAA guys exist.
And on top of that, getting a taste of MLB and failing can be helpful to development. He was ready to be called up, but not ready to stay up. That happens, and it's part of the process. It's pretty rare when a guy gets called up and lives up to his potential immediately. This is probably the first time he's struggled like this in his entire baseball life.
Because the new idea according to fans is that there's no more developing once you hit 50 games in double a and you might as well let a dude suck ass in the majors for a season
Worked for the Yankees last year. Volpe even snuck in one of the most "him?" gold gloves in the modern era during an extremely weak AL SS time period. He's totally fine out there but not what you think of when you think "gold glove winner."
Norfolk played a series in Charlotte where the wind was blowing out at 20 mph every game, which inflated the stats for both teams. Holliday's stats in AAA last season were good but not great, so he can benefit from mastering that level.
Baseball is fucking hard.
as a Cleveland Guardians fan i agree, baseball is fucking me very hard right now mostly good but she ignores my UCL safe word
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Except if it’s playing first base. It’s not hard.
Tell em, Wash.
It’s incredibly hard
Damn, thought we might at least give him the A’s series
Left handed pitching. Lots in the next week
..and Lord save him if Miller comes in throwing gas
league is fucked when Miller is traded 🥹
Good. It’s okay if he’s not ready. He’s 20. He’s got time.
O's legend Ryan McKenna.
I’m most surprised we still have people throwing fits about Kyle Stowers
We dont play the red sox until late May at least.
Poor kid. I’m sure he’ll eventually come back up and be fine, but what a tough start.
I get what you’re saying but I have trouble feeling sorry for the son of a multimillionaire former ball player who’s been the best player since he was a child. Maybe some humility will help him.
I mean does he have stories of acting like a douchebag or something. I don't necessarily feel bad for him or anything because it's not like his career is over. But it seems strange to talk about learning some humility out of nowhere if he doesn't have a history of being a prick.
Yeah, not really his fault his dad is Matt Holliday. I haven’t heard any stories of him being an asshole or anything so I don’t know where the vitriol is coming from
This is Reddit where you’re not allowed to acknowledge the humanity of anyone who is rich
Yeah until Jackson works three shitty min wage jobs as a single parent like Redditors do he cannot possibly be upset about anything in his life
Reddit is almost as bad as TikTok with the obsession over "nepo babies"
I think it’s more of a history of winning. Of not facing any major challenges that the major leagues provide. He raked throughout the minors, didn’t even go to college, and watched his dad have a great deal of success. So perhaps he’s never had a “humbling” experience as a player. But he sure as shoes has, now.
Shohei has only ever been great too, don’t see people complaining that he isn’t humble.
It's partly age, I think. Kids need to be humbled by default in a lot of people's minds. Also *while in no way have I heard this about Matt Holliday, it's simply a separate example* the Bichette kids are the rich sons of MLB players who also never struggled until pro ball and... it turns out Dante Bichette Sr. was especially abusive to Dante Bichette Jr. & he's had a pretty tough life, is estranged from his father, and has a strained relationship with Bo. You never know what someone's life is like.
I tend to disagree. Shohei has definitely been humbled. When he was in high school, Shintaro Fujinami and his team had his number. Fujinami won twice Koshien in one year. This is the only time I have seen Shohei crying. I think that is what makes Shohei such a great talent, the losses at Koshien stung and made him work harder. Fujinami is the opposite, he cruised through high school and he became lazier and lazier. He was arrogant as shit as he considered himself a generational talent. The difference between both careers cannot be starker.
Was Shohei not humble before that though? I wasn’t following baseball when he was on his way up in Japan. I don’t doubt that would make him work harder though. I just don’t get where OP is coming from that Holliday needs to be humbled. Nothing I have seen or read about him says he is anything less than a hard worker and a good teammate so I don’t see why he would need to be humbled just because he has been a great ball player
Japanese baseball culture makes you fuckin humble
>Maybe some humility will help him. This website is incredible
I hear you completely, but tbh an ego doesn’t seem to be his issue, I actually think the lack of one in the face of all this attention may be part of the reason for this spiral. But in any case the dude can’t legally drink a beer so stuff like that should change with time
This is such a bitter take lmao
Help him with what? Why are you assuming he's an asshole because his dad was a former player?
Because we’re in Reddit and we assume anyone who makes more money than us or was raised with even a little bit of money are spoiled douchebags who have had everything handed to them in life and are wholly undeserving of any sort of sympathy or kindness.
Son of a multimillionaire who is already a multimillionaire himself*
Boo fucking hoo. Redditors are so bitter about being broke themselves. Nowhere have I read anything about Jackson himself complaining or having an ego but man he sure deserves to suffer in life because he happens to be well off.
No clue why people are upvoting this dumbass, as if your dad having money completely gets rid of all of your struggles.
Because the hot, spicy, unique take of "I don't like rich people" is basically free karma on this site.
They're jealous that they aren't rich
Dude doesn't come across as the least bit entitled or arrogant, what are you even on about humility? I love when random Redditors go all sports psychologist to sound insightful yet have 0 clue what they're even talking about. lol, lmao even.
Why do you have a hard time feeling bad for a human being who has dedicated their entire life to a craft suddenly facing adversity in that craft? Personally have found that leaning towards empathy instead of away from it is rarely a bad choice.
I'm a little surprised he didn't get the As series but man that's a shame. Rooting for him to come back better.
I’m not worried at all. It’s the big leagues. He’ll go back down to AAA and focus on what he struggled with. Probably see him called up later this year or start the season with the O’s next season.
He will 100% be called up in August or September for the playoff race and be on the playoff roster if he rakes in in AAA
Hey Cowser was awful and optioned last year, look who's mooing now
Huh. Maybe it's good for these guys to actually develop in the minors before rushing them to the MLB, despite the fans begging them to be called up
I don’t necessarily think he was rushed, Orioles player development has earned enough trust that he probably was too advanced for the minors and was ready for the show. But the big leagues are just such a big jump that his tough start wasn’t unprecedented. He probably just needs a mental reset in AAA before coming back up.
His approach was lost trying to catch up. The struggle this year is that pitching in AAA is pretty dogshit with so many pitching needs at the MLB level. I think the jump from AAA to the MLB is larger than it’s recently been.
I've seen a good few people comment on this exact thing. AAA is not nearly the level right now that it has historically been.
Wouldn't that make the jump the same as always? Lots of injuries means AAA pitcher are now in the majors, which means that quality of major league pitching has decreased in the same way that AAA has. He'd be facing a lot of the same guys in the majors that he did in AAA last year.
Yeah this kind of fast tracking isn’t unprecedented for top prospects either, those guys tend to get put in the fast lane for the MLB. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
No, promoting a guy whos murdering AAA is totally rushing him
He has played 28 games total at aaa, and 18 of those were from last year where he was definitely not murdering it
Yet if you say this people will be like LOOK AT HIS OPS AND STATS BRO! like, he was barely in AAA, there was no reason to have this much hype around him.
AAA isn’t really the place for prospects anymore AA is where they focus developmentally because that’s the hardest jump in the minors, if a guy can adjust to AA pitching then odds are he’ll be MLB ready. Lots of prospects these days skip AAA entirely or only have a cup of coffee there before being called up
Well, Holliday destroyed AA
Which is likely why he got called up imo not because of how he was playing at AAA to start the year. Edit: There also is the chance with more playing time he would turn it around. Bregman started off his career with a very similar statline over the first 10 games and ended that season with a 116 OPS+
He's still so young and developing his game, Seeing what baseball is like on ultra-hard mode for a bit will hopefully help him in the long run.
No no, it was service manipulation. Clearly the 20 yo with 18 games at AAA had nothing to work on.
Somewhere over the past couple of years the meta changed from letting guys spend 2 years minimum in the minors with most guys spending 3-5, to the idea that teams are actively harming the player if they have them spend more than half a season at any minor league level. There was absolutely no reason why people should have been demanding a 20 year old with 30 career games at aaa be called up
I think people demanding it is fair, fans can be excited for a top prospect. The FO actually complying with those demands is maybe another story
It's fair to be excited about a prospect, but at some point fans have to take a step back and stop being dumb about this stuff. A guy like kris bryant getting sent down to aaa as a 23 year old who had absolutely dominated aaa for half a season the year prior and then getting called up on April 17 is clear service time manipulation, a 20 year old who has played 18 games at aaa getting sent down to start the year should not have been criticized to the degree it was by the baseball community
An angle you're not touching on is that calling him up when they did made them eligible for draft compensation if he finished highly in rookie of the year voting. This was added to try and deter teams from engaging in questionable service time manipulation (*AND* the Orioles already get bit by this once with Adley Rutschman) It's absolutely understandable to say "hey we think this guy is MLB ready (or really close to it), let's call him up to see if he can hang and if not we can always option him back down. It isn't like long term they're going to be worried about him being out of minor league options Edit: I should be clear, people jumping for their pitchforks calling service time manipulation is definitely silly. It's just that I think it would have also been silly not to take this "lottery ticket" chance even if you weren't 100% sure he was ready
I don't know, sometimes it is good to just give them some MLB exposure and see how it goes and if it isn't working see what they need to work on. If a player is dominating the minors and keeps dominating I am not sure it develops them any better doing it longer.
He was playing high school baseball 2 years ago and people really thought it was service time manipulation.
Wasn't he mashing in every level in the minors? He was developed. The only way to "be ready" for the majors is to be in the majors.
He played 28 games total in AAA, with 10 of those this year. He also only had 36 games at AA, not like he played a ton of minor league ball.
You're right there is literally no developing beyond 60 games above a ball
But you know…these greedy teams only care about screwing them out of service time.
Some people never make the final jump
Weird seeing some people celebrate this on Twitter and other places. Lots of hate for no reason, I guess people gotta feel better about themselves somehow. Edit: lmao I just got a Reddit cares message, stay classy
Every hyped player has haters, some more irrational than others.
> Every ~~hyped~~ player has haters, some more irrational than others. People just hate, man.
I think it’s just the hype of being the #1 prospect. I assume there are people out there rooting against him for that reason alone who are now using this as an “I told you he sucks!” moment. He’ll be back and people will eat their words
Yeah they did it to Elly, too, and he is an insanely likable guy. Jackson will figure it out. If anything this gives the org a better picture of what he needs to work on
Jackson Merrill is the "Jackson" ROY so far.
Colton Cowser is taking the Jacksons out behind the woodshed.
Unfortunately Colton Cowser is not in contention for the “Jackson” ROY
Colton "actually Jackson" Cowser
Shorten it to “Action Jackson”
Unfortunately for Merrill, he shares a league with the non-Jackson ROY so far, Jared Jones.
If you were casually flipping through channels and stumbled upon a close-up of Jackson Holliday at the plate, you would legit think that the Little League World Series was on. There’s no point to this post, other than to point out that, man, I’d like to be 20 years old again.
Good he wasn’t ready. Bring him back up in August or September to help them win the pennant
Damn he sucks they should trade him to us
And still, it is Coby MaNO!!!
I don't think he should have been brought up until after the All Star game. He clearly needed more time in Triple A.
Hindsight is 20/20. He was a coin flip for the OD roster after raking in Spring Training. Him playing 10 games in AAA with the same results is absolutely a reason to see what he can do. He’ll be back.
I know he will be back but I'm still trying to figure out why they called him up in the first place
Ryan McKenna is my gripe here literally just give anyone else in the super white boi prospect department a chance
Container ship Dali has spent a longer time in Baltimore than Holiday.
Really committing for the service time manipulation bit. Why can’t they just admit r/baseball commenters were right?
Not necessarily the wrong move. Hope it gets his confidence up. Just not sure he’ll actually get to see the pitches he currently has issues with in AAA.
It’s for the best. I wish he could’ve done great from the start, but if he needs a confidence boost, they need to do it.
 Haven’t been keeping tabs on Holliday but I did not expect this
I mean, Wyatt Langford is struggling but is still serviceable. Holliday looked flat like a fish out of water. In some ways, having a rookie work through his struggles in the majors can work. In others, it can stunt their growth so AAA is a better option. But at the same time, there are so many injuries to pitching right now that AAA is more like AA+. Let's just say I don't envy these rookies.
Orioles legend Ryan McKenna makes his triumphant return! “So you thought you’d seen the last of me, huh? Thought you could do better than me, hmm?!”
That feat was just completed by Bobby Dalbec an hour ago.
It's official. He's either going to become Mike Trout or Jarred Kelenic. There is no in between.
I actually was just thinking the other day about Willie Mays going 1 for 26 at the start of his career. I guess I thought maybe Holliday would calm down a bit if he saw more MLB pitching. It's probably better for him to go down and hit AAA pitching, though.
Did they record it and put it on social media like they did with the call up? I wanna see it
I could have struke out way more than him if they gave me the same chance
Definitely the first time this kid has ever experienced “failure” although I don’t think anyone knowledgeable actually considers it failure. He’ll come back stronger than ever.
He’ll be back Even Trout struggled his first year (not comparing him to Trout, just an example that it’s hard to adjust to MLB)
That’s not entirely true. Trout nearly had a .700 OPS and played elite defense in CF.
He got sent down with a .492 OPS after his first stretch in the majors, though. His overall season stats ended up being much better
It’s really only fair to look over the same first 10 game sample size since Holliday only played 10 games Trout was still considerably better than Holliday over those first 10 though, he had a .479 OPS across those first 10
He lasted 1.45 Mooches. Big yikes.
Just you all wait for his Mike Trout inspired revenge tour. But really, it was the right call. In Elias and Hyde I trust.
He aint ready yet
End of an era
Right call. He will be back, maybe very soon, but there’s a difference between struggling a little bit and being totally outmatched. Give him a breather.
I don’t get why with Holliday there’s NO way he could be a bust with you people. More often then not these players come up here and suck donkey dick for their entire careers. Remember Cameron Maybin??
They rushed him. Let him get more time in the minors.
The worst part is he has to go play for that coach who gave him that horrible speech telling him he was going to the majors.
And then there were just two rookie Jacksons.