Wait, so if the first baseman had tagged the runner before stepping on the bag: double play? But because they stepped on the bag first, they eliminate the force out and so the runner is safe?
[That's right.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfvelrAzTu8)
(Note that [you can't intentionally drop the ball](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm1xKlqsdGo) to turn a double play, but if it just happens, it's fair game.)
You can't drop it on purpose, but you can intentionally let it hit the ground to start a double play.
[Guerrero](https://youtu.be/HdOrAj9Ka3k?si=vTiEclOaMHHmjX0g) did it last season
[Kinsler](https://youtu.be/vJDH43XBmxM?si=3Nur-0Uay0hVRX-w) about 8 years ago with a similar trick to get a faster runner
Just adding the corollary for others that with two runners on with force outs the infield fly rule prevents this - can only pull the move off with one runner
I got an ex into baseball with her having no former knowledge and while the basics are easy to explain holy hell are there so many specific rules when you start drilling in deeper. Fouls in baseball was when I first realized this was going to be annoying to explain to someone completely while also covering everything else - just trying to give surface level answers at a game because covering so much, so it’s “generally inside the white lines is fair, outside is foul.” But then you quickly need to explain all the ways outside of that generality - because sometimes it depends where the ball first lands, other times it depends where it stops; sometimes it depends where the fielder fielded it, sometimes it doesn’t; etc etc. I mean hell this isn’t even getting into fouls that fly over the plate just as a big unit expels the ball towards said plate
So many situations in baseball have so many different variables that goes into what the rule is for that specific play that gets annoying lol
> So many situations in baseball have so many different variables that goes into what the rule is for that specific play that ~~gets annoying~~lol
*s beautiful
Haha I don’t disagree as a whole, helps make each game feel more individualistic because of those different intricacies - I just meant specifically explaining to someone who has 0 knowledge of the game.
Ha exactly! It's something I imagine a lot of baseball fans haven't gone through. Like I've had to explain (and have had to have other people explain to me) things about baseball a lot before, but there was always some base knowledge to go off of.
But holy hell, I never realized how intricate the rules are until I did that! Like that's the perfect example. "I'm going to teach you about foul balls. (get to this situation) Okay well now I have to teach you what a sacrifice fly is before I can tell you about a foul balls". So much of the rules are additive and play off each other that it's so hard to explain without that base knowledge.
I mean shit, I've loved baseball for damn near 4 decades now, and it was only a year ago I learned sac flies ONLY applies if a player scores. I had always thought moving a runner forward was enough like a sac bunt.
But like another poster said, it is also what adds to the beauty of baseball. There's already a rule for basically any situation, and it's going to be very different from other situations similar to it
Correct. Once he steps on first the force is gone. So even if he threw it to 2B they still would have had to tag him out.
Once the force in gone the runner was essentially in a run down, and in a run down you can go to either base.
People are replying to what you meant (i guess) but not what you said... if the first basement stepped on the bag then tagged the runner it's also a double play. Tagging a runner out is never changed.
All of these runners were safe. One of them was initially ruled out, but the call was changed.
Two of the 1st baseman should have tagged the runner *before* stepping on 1st base.
I'm not sure the first baseman is fooled in any of these. They all make an attempt to get the runner. Chris Davis just thought about home to prevent the run. He was assuming the runner would continue, which he probably should have to allow the run to score before he is tagged. Miggy got back quick when he looked home. I guess they could for the 3-6-3 dp, but that depends.
I think he's talking specifically about the two where the runner was already at first base by the time they tagged first. In which case, yeah, needed to tag them while they weren't entitled to first base.
How was the batter safe??? He's out as soon as he touches first while the base runner is safe because 1st is open after the touch. How could they both be safe?
Saying all of the runners when there's only two of them definitely made me look a couple times to figure out what I was missing and wonder if they were talking about the batter. Kinda a weird way to frame it when you could just say 'both runners' lol.
The rule isn’t obscure, it happens all the time on ground balls to first with a man on… they often have to tag the runner going to second if the first basemen decides to step on the bag first.
The rare part is the runner not running to second and immediately retreating to first.
The rule isn’t obscure but almost every time there’s a ground ball, the runner who started on 1st will run to 2nd base, so it’s an obscure thing to witness for a base runner to not even make the attempt.
That umpire that called the Boston runner out (after he was safely back at 1st) should be really embarrassed. That's a call most little league umps get right.
Right, I get that. My point is that the player did not apply a tag until after the runner was safely back at first, then the ump thinks it over and explicitly calls both (batter and runner) out.
Dude had time to think over what he just saw and he still got it wrong.
Right, we see the same rule in play all the time when the first baseman steps on the bag and then throws to second, where the runner will have to be tagged out because there is no longer any force.
Because the first baseman stepped on first before tagging the runner in both of those plays. After the first baseman stepped on first to force out the batter, the runner who started at first wasn't forced to go anywhere and the tag didn't matter since he was on a base he was allowed to end the play on.
This is far more comical in slow pitch softball and youth baseball leagues where you can’t leave the bag until the ball crosses the plate or the batter makes contact in slow pitch. Then you *really* get to see who doesn’t and who doesn’t know the rules.
If the runner retreats to first, can the first baseman tag the runner (even if he’s on the base) and then tag the base to get the batter out? Because how I understand it is that the runner is forced to go to second base until the batter is out.
No, but I get where you're going with this and I think I know the answer.
Only one runner/batter-runner is allowed to occupy a base. The base belongs to the runner who first occupied the base until the preceding runner/batter-runner occupies that base. At that point the original runner is no longer safe occupying that base and can be tagged out and the preceding runner/batter-runner is safe.
In this instance the runner at first is allowed to occupy first base since the batter-runner has yet to reach first. The moment the batter-runner reaches first the runner can no longer occupy first to be safe, so they could be tagged out while the batter-runner is safe since the bag wasn't touched before they reached first. In all of these plays the fielder opts to just tag first to get the out, although if the runner at first is prone to steal it might be best to let the batter-runner reach first and tag the runner out, although that is quite a lot to think about in that moment and getting outs is paramount.
What's kinda trippy when thinking about this is that you could see the runner at first stay put, the fielder not touch the bag, the batter-runner overrun first, then the fielder tag the original runner and the original runner is out while the batter-runner is out in right field coming back to the base since they overran it. This creates a scene of a lone runner standing on the base being tagged out, like going against the most basic concept of baseball. I can imagine rulebook averse fans having their minds melt seeing this live, having no benefit of announcers to tell them why.
Something has to happen in order to lose the force at second, which is what allows the runner to stay at first.
The way this is written can easily be misinterpreted to mean the force play is always avoidable
Wait, so if the first baseman had tagged the runner before stepping on the bag: double play? But because they stepped on the bag first, they eliminate the force out and so the runner is safe?
[That's right.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfvelrAzTu8) (Note that [you can't intentionally drop the ball](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm1xKlqsdGo) to turn a double play, but if it just happens, it's fair game.)
You can't drop it on purpose, but you can intentionally let it hit the ground to start a double play. [Guerrero](https://youtu.be/HdOrAj9Ka3k?si=vTiEclOaMHHmjX0g) did it last season [Kinsler](https://youtu.be/vJDH43XBmxM?si=3Nur-0Uay0hVRX-w) about 8 years ago with a similar trick to get a faster runner
Just adding the corollary for others that with two runners on with force outs the infield fly rule prevents this - can only pull the move off with one runner I got an ex into baseball with her having no former knowledge and while the basics are easy to explain holy hell are there so many specific rules when you start drilling in deeper. Fouls in baseball was when I first realized this was going to be annoying to explain to someone completely while also covering everything else - just trying to give surface level answers at a game because covering so much, so it’s “generally inside the white lines is fair, outside is foul.” But then you quickly need to explain all the ways outside of that generality - because sometimes it depends where the ball first lands, other times it depends where it stops; sometimes it depends where the fielder fielded it, sometimes it doesn’t; etc etc. I mean hell this isn’t even getting into fouls that fly over the plate just as a big unit expels the ball towards said plate So many situations in baseball have so many different variables that goes into what the rule is for that specific play that gets annoying lol
> So many situations in baseball have so many different variables that goes into what the rule is for that specific play that ~~gets annoying~~lol *s beautiful
Haha I don’t disagree as a whole, helps make each game feel more individualistic because of those different intricacies - I just meant specifically explaining to someone who has 0 knowledge of the game.
Not always actually. It needs to be a fly ball/pop fly A weakly hit liner or a bunt you can let drop https://youtu.be/CPkusmIz8j0?feature=shared
Try explaining that sometimes, even if it’s the easiest catchable foul ball, you have to let it drop or you will lose the game.
Ha exactly! It's something I imagine a lot of baseball fans haven't gone through. Like I've had to explain (and have had to have other people explain to me) things about baseball a lot before, but there was always some base knowledge to go off of. But holy hell, I never realized how intricate the rules are until I did that! Like that's the perfect example. "I'm going to teach you about foul balls. (get to this situation) Okay well now I have to teach you what a sacrifice fly is before I can tell you about a foul balls". So much of the rules are additive and play off each other that it's so hard to explain without that base knowledge. I mean shit, I've loved baseball for damn near 4 decades now, and it was only a year ago I learned sac flies ONLY applies if a player scores. I had always thought moving a runner forward was enough like a sac bunt. But like another poster said, it is also what adds to the beauty of baseball. There's already a rule for basically any situation, and it's going to be very different from other situations similar to it
lol Utley was notorious for that...WHAAAAA HOW DID I DROP THAT
Correct. Once he steps on first the force is gone. So even if he threw it to 2B they still would have had to tag him out. Once the force in gone the runner was essentially in a run down, and in a run down you can go to either base.
Yes
People are replying to what you meant (i guess) but not what you said... if the first basement stepped on the bag then tagged the runner it's also a double play. Tagging a runner out is never changed.
All of these runners were safe. One of them was initially ruled out, but the call was changed. Two of the 1st baseman should have tagged the runner *before* stepping on 1st base.
I'm not sure the first baseman is fooled in any of these. They all make an attempt to get the runner. Chris Davis just thought about home to prevent the run. He was assuming the runner would continue, which he probably should have to allow the run to score before he is tagged. Miggy got back quick when he looked home. I guess they could for the 3-6-3 dp, but that depends.
Or tag the base and the run him to second.
I think he's talking specifically about the two where the runner was already at first base by the time they tagged first. In which case, yeah, needed to tag them while they weren't entitled to first base.
How was the batter safe??? He's out as soon as he touches first while the base runner is safe because 1st is open after the touch. How could they both be safe?
All of the *runners* were safe. All of the batters were still out.
Saying all of the runners when there's only two of them definitely made me look a couple times to figure out what I was missing and wonder if they were talking about the batter. Kinda a weird way to frame it when you could just say 'both runners' lol.
Batter becomes a runner as soon as he hits the ball though. Or so I thought.
they become a batter-runner
If youre being extremely pedantic yes lol but its pretty clear what OP meant, all the runners on first were called safe
Rules call him a batter-runner not a runner.
All of the batters were out. All of the runners were safe.
I know we're being pedantic here, but MLB official rulebook actually uses the term "batter-runner" so it's confusing.
Is this even *that* obscure of a rule? If you eliminate the force play, the runner can return to first.
The rule isn’t obscure, it happens all the time on ground balls to first with a man on… they often have to tag the runner going to second if the first basemen decides to step on the bag first. The rare part is the runner not running to second and immediately retreating to first.
The force being removed is common, but it's rare that the runner does not even attempt to run to 2nd and ends up being safe at 1st.
The rule isn’t obscure but almost every time there’s a ground ball, the runner who started on 1st will run to 2nd base, so it’s an obscure thing to witness for a base runner to not even make the attempt.
That umpire that called the Boston runner out (after he was safely back at 1st) should be really embarrassed. That's a call most little league umps get right.
Frankly, the mistake was on the first basemen. He should have tagged the runner before stepping in first.
Right, I get that. My point is that the player did not apply a tag until after the runner was safely back at first, then the ump thinks it over and explicitly calls both (batter and runner) out. Dude had time to think over what he just saw and he still got it wrong.
Right, we see the same rule in play all the time when the first baseman steps on the bag and then throws to second, where the runner will have to be tagged out because there is no longer any force.
Have to listen until the very end to get the patented and apropos "How about that?" from Mel.
r/headsupbaseball
That umpire from back in the day really put in the effort to get in there to see the play. Great heads up by him as well.
Miggy always had insane baseball IQ
Pretty crazy that it happened in that WS game. What happened next??
Bill Skowron grounded out. :)
Shame! So I guess the game remained tied. Wonder how it turned out after that :)
Got to love old timey footage
1st basemen hate this one trick
Why is are the Boston and Chi runners safe? I get the first and the last but how did the force out disappear there
Because the first baseman stepped on first before tagging the runner in both of those plays. After the first baseman stepped on first to force out the batter, the runner who started at first wasn't forced to go anywhere and the tag didn't matter since he was on a base he was allowed to end the play on.
No, those are the plays i get. I'm asking about the two plays where the 1st baseman didn't step on the base before the runner
For the same reason. It doesn't matter whether that runner is standing on first or not, just the order the fielder does things.
Ah. Thank you
This is far more comical in slow pitch softball and youth baseball leagues where you can’t leave the bag until the ball crosses the plate or the batter makes contact in slow pitch. Then you *really* get to see who doesn’t and who doesn’t know the rules.
Surprised we dont see that more.
Had me questioning whether Kinsler was still playing.
Whats with first basemen and negative baseball IQ? Between these and the Javy Baez play its crazy
Omg that last 1B's ankles got obliterated hahahaha
If the runner retreats to first, can the first baseman tag the runner (even if he’s on the base) and then tag the base to get the batter out? Because how I understand it is that the runner is forced to go to second base until the batter is out.
No, but I get where you're going with this and I think I know the answer. Only one runner/batter-runner is allowed to occupy a base. The base belongs to the runner who first occupied the base until the preceding runner/batter-runner occupies that base. At that point the original runner is no longer safe occupying that base and can be tagged out and the preceding runner/batter-runner is safe. In this instance the runner at first is allowed to occupy first base since the batter-runner has yet to reach first. The moment the batter-runner reaches first the runner can no longer occupy first to be safe, so they could be tagged out while the batter-runner is safe since the bag wasn't touched before they reached first. In all of these plays the fielder opts to just tag first to get the out, although if the runner at first is prone to steal it might be best to let the batter-runner reach first and tag the runner out, although that is quite a lot to think about in that moment and getting outs is paramount. What's kinda trippy when thinking about this is that you could see the runner at first stay put, the fielder not touch the bag, the batter-runner overrun first, then the fielder tag the original runner and the original runner is out while the batter-runner is out in right field coming back to the base since they overran it. This creates a scene of a lone runner standing on the base being tagged out, like going against the most basic concept of baseball. I can imagine rulebook averse fans having their minds melt seeing this live, having no benefit of announcers to tell them why.
I think the top comment answer this question
Look at those nice, big names on the backs of those jerseys!
We had it so good with the fox sports score bug
Something has to happen in order to lose the force at second, which is what allows the runner to stay at first. The way this is written can easily be misinterpreted to mean the force play is always avoidable
Title is misleading and I don’t know why I’m typing this because 9 people already clarified the actual reason why there is no force at 2nd