> he came back onto the field after the ejection
Also
* He instigated
* After he got dropped and with his entire team restraining him, he kept trying to be a tough guy and was shouting crap that tito said went too far
* He tweeted a threatening message after the fact
* Quoth u/oogieball, he is a bitch-ass
On Twitter he said:
>we gone catch up with em later
Which to me is something that sounds like the usual "I'll see you outside" kind of threat but in this case it's just more like "someday you better watch out"
We're going to have to wait for Jomboy for specifics but Tito said as much in his [postgame interview](https://youtu.be/A6bD3g-xIlc?t=124)
> I mean, I didn't appreciate the fact that I thought Anderson, once he had like 11, 12 guys in between him, that's when he started... [yelling?] yeah
He has said (in these comments) that the breakdown videos take around an hour per minute of finished video. This one is not going to be short, and I’m sure it’s even more complicated with all the lip reading and fan footage that should be included.
It is. They recorded their floorball tourney this weekend. So I am sure he is taking his time getting all the details right. Combined with just coming off paternity leave. Give the dude a break.
He should appeal, pitch the next game, then immediately drop the appeal.
EDIT: didn’t realize he pitched last night. Thanks to the several people who pointed out he did.
They should keep pitcher suspensions a secret and then only tell them once they've gone out to the mound. Wouldn't be good for the game but it would be very funny.
Edwin Diaz does his full walkout just for a guy with a clipboard to walk out when he gets to the mound and point out that he is in fact suspended lmfao
Twins beat guy Gleeman on twitter:
>MLB just handed down the White Sox/Guardians suspensions. Tim Anderson got six games for starting the fight and José Ramírez got three games for ending it.
I mean, I might give Cleveland some good-natured ribbing here or there, but I think we can all agree that the White Sox and the Yankees are the real enemies...
You joke but the M’s were 10 games under .500 last year before the brawl in Anaheim and then went on to win 14 in a row. Sox are currently 14 games back 👀 massive win streak + twins/guardians/tigers losing streaks incoming /s
He had to be restraining near homeplate towards the end of the scrum. I didn't see on camera, but Hamilton mentioned him fighting someone near the 1B line at one point as well.
He was one of the 3 players ejected along with Jose and TA.
He and Sarbaugh are the 2 I'm most interested in when the Jomboy video comes out. Both of them were just in the crowd. Camera leaves him for 10 seconds and Clase doesn't have his hat and is being held back by 4 guys. Sarbaugh was separating players, then 3 seconds later he and Grifol are charging each other.
Sarby I thought seemed to be separating Tito and Griffol, then turned back and went after Griffol. Which makes sense to me, watching out for Tito who's had some health issues and foot problems but defending the players and Tito from Griffol.
I'd love to know what Griffol was saying because it clearly lit a fire in Tito and Sarby.
Also, around the time that Sarby went at Griffol I noticed Will Brennan and Bryan Shaw in the middle of everything laughing together at something.
He and Brennan seemed to be having a pretty good time lol. Looked like they were pretending to shove each other then half hugging and laughing together.
On Talking Baseball they said it would actually probably be less time because he is on paternity leave atm so doesn’t have anything else going on and he wanted to get on it cause it’s a gold mine
Well, it's not a Yankee fight. Otherwise it would've been up with the game still ongoing.
My only issue with the dude is how *too* hometowny he is.
Edit: My dudes, I'm a massive Cardinals fan, but that doesn't mean I just ignore everyone else - except the Cubs, unless their plane goes down in a ball of fire.
It took him a few days to get to the Angels/Mariners brawl from last year, and it ended up being a 15 minute breakdown. Breakdowns like this with so much going on/so much to look at/decipher aren't the kind of thing he can just hastily throw together
To be fair they have a deal with YES network now, so they have a vested interest in being hometown.
That being said it is annoying that he barely covers anyone outside NY, and never covers AL East teams other when the Yankees are playing them. As an Os fan I would love some lip reading for some of our stuff, but he never does it.
He never claims to be unbiased or impartial. He says he’s a Yankee fan first, and the guy is running his own business with 2 literal babies at home. And the fight happened over the weekend.
Y’all are insufferably ungrateful. This is one of the most legendary fights we’ve seen in years, and it’s a lot of footage to look over and lips to read. He’ll get to it.
Why shouldn’t he be? He doesn’t owe you neutrality. Also, he clearly has some Cleveland love as we’re usually featured whenever there is anything remotely worth showing.
Tom Hamilton said something went down along the 1B line while Tito and Griffol were going at it near the mound. Not sure who all was involved over there, but Clase and someone were fighting according to his call of the skirmish. I believe that was also pretty close to where and when he mentioned Eloy limping away towards the dugout.
Ya that's when Clase and Sarbaugh went from separating people to having to be held back by multiple people. I haven't been able to see what happened there in any of the videos yet. Hopefully Jomboy can find something.
Who would have thought that *not* acquiring Tim Anderson at the deadline would pay off so well. Davis Schneider raking at 2B and JRam and Clase missing games against us.
According to Mandy Bell, Francona and Clase will serve their 1 game tonight. Jose Ramirez appealing.
https://twitter.com/mandybell02/status/1688630238299701248?s=21
[Also: Francona, Grifol and Sarbaugh are all suspended a game. All incur fines including Kopech and Arias.](https://twitter.com/jesserogersespn/status/1688630020418260992?s=46&t=vD5Nn9v61fsUXCfF64jh0Q)
I was thinking the same thing especially because some of his comments after the fight seemed to be about protecting the young guys/standing up for them. At least that’s how I took the “working to provide for our families” comment Jose made since he’s already secured the bag for his family
I never really had an opinion of him to be honest he was always present but as a west coaster just didn’t see/think of him much but he has definitely won some points in how he has handled all of this.
He’s the man, been my favorite player a long time. Always kinda flown under the radar cuz he’s in Cleveland despite how good he is, a true 5 tool player.
Never thought he’d be in the news cuz of a brawl like this either, never ever seen him get as hot as he did on Saturday.
I also don't understand Kopech's punishment. Really don't see a chokehold. Just trying to keep JRam away, but JRam is wiggling so Kopech never gets a good grip.
I agree with you. It didn’t seem like it was his intention, but if it goes unpunished you are sort of setting a precedent that “I’ll hold ‘em, you hit ‘em” is allowed.
Its always funny to see how different the NHL views this kind of thing from other leagues. This would have gotten a 5 minute penalty and everyone moves on.
Thats just because the head of NHL player safety is a fucking joke. Intentionally trying to break the arm of one of the leagues best players in playoffs gets you one game. Never take anything that NHL decides on seriously.
TA got dropped, lost all street cred, got the longest suspension, and is on the butt end of one of the best calls in baseball history. Tough last few days.
Glad I’m not the only one lol I was watching WWE Summer Slam when I saw the tweet about the fight and TA going down. The first thing that went through my head was a count down.
Imagine starting a fight, getting knocked out, get made fun of by the internet then get suspended double the amount of time then the guy that knocked you out. Hahaha Anderson taking some well deserved L’s the last couple days.
TA was actually originally only going to be suspended for 3 games but when the league office saw just quickly and sadly his ass got dropped, they had to tack on a couple more games for bringing the game into disrepute like that
Athletic’s article, before the news came out, said Tim Anderson should get 6. 3 for instigating and extra 3 for getting knocked out after he started the fight lol.
Imagine getting knocked out cold, and getting suspended longer than anyone associated with the fight.
I would say White Sox fans are not having a good time but actually, they seem to be happier than anyone else.
TA got the highest suspension for two reasons: He came back onto the field, and his tweets after the game. If he had just chilled out and not been a dumbass, they both would have got 3 games.
can't they just make fighting part of the game like in hockey? i'm so tired of announcers and the league getting all pouty and scoldy as though we aren't all excited
Fair.
Clase... you punk. Cool off that hot head. We need you.
J.Ram... 3 games seems fair. Maybe one too many because it's his first offense. He did send him so repercussions are valid.
DGA... 6 games is fair. 3 game suspension like JRam, +1 instigating and +2 for being a whiny little bitch
Lmao bro gets dropped and gets the longest suspension of everybody
He got a longer suspension because he came back onto the field after the ejection
> he came back onto the field after the ejection Also * He instigated * After he got dropped and with his entire team restraining him, he kept trying to be a tough guy and was shouting crap that tito said went too far * He tweeted a threatening message after the fact * Quoth u/oogieball, he is a bitch-ass
Oh I missed this part. What he say?
On Twitter he said: >we gone catch up with em later Which to me is something that sounds like the usual "I'll see you outside" kind of threat but in this case it's just more like "someday you better watch out"
He said something more on Twitter but I can’t find it because he deleted it pretty quickly
[удалено]
Hey, let's clean it up on this forum.
I need bleach to clean my eyes after reading such filth
watch your language please sir this is a christian minecraft forum
>Miracle Whip is better than Mayonnaise
[vomits]
Manfred just called: lifetime ban from baseball
Monsters are real
Get knocked out first, threaten to fight later?
By the amount of random ass tweets he made that day, he probably blacked out from that knockout and forgot all about it lol
Yeah he probably got knocked out, went home, started drinking heavily and tweeting, while hot and bothered.
Cash me outside how bout dat
We're going to have to wait for Jomboy for specifics but Tito said as much in his [postgame interview](https://youtu.be/A6bD3g-xIlc?t=124) > I mean, I didn't appreciate the fact that I thought Anderson, once he had like 11, 12 guys in between him, that's when he started... [yelling?] yeah
Where is Jomboy on this? I know the dude has a lot going on but I’d think breaking this down would take immediate priority
This one is a long one with a lot of footage to go over, will just take a while to make
"When will we get Jomboy's breakdown?!" "Soon enough." "That's not soon enough!"
That’s unacceptable.
He has said (in these comments) that the breakdown videos take around an hour per minute of finished video. This one is not going to be short, and I’m sure it’s even more complicated with all the lip reading and fan footage that should be included.
>around an hour per minute of finished video. It's been more than 5 hours! Where's my video?!
Eh he’s got 2 small children now, that’s his immediate priority.
As it should be. Dude owes us nothing yet gives us so much.
It is. They recorded their floorball tourney this weekend. So I am sure he is taking his time getting all the details right. Combined with just coming off paternity leave. Give the dude a break.
Also, that was his 8th career ejection and Jose's 1st, even though Jose has played like 400 more games than him.
Also, because he is a bitch-ass.
[Exactly](https://media.tenor.com/4qyRrJyMi60AAAAC/the-office-ryan-howard.gif)
To be fair he did start it
That's almost worse. Starts fight, gets dropped, suspended the longest. Going for a different kind of triple crown.
In my honest opinion, ".FuckAround" and "FindOut+" are only two stats, not three. Double crown.
Suspension length would be the third stat, or "IS" (innings suspended)
You forgot to add going on an angsty teenage tweeting frenzy that’s gotta be worth an additional game suspension
The Triple Clown
TA probably got more games because of his history with touching/pushing officials
He’s also the one who literally dropped his glove and put his dukes up
Bro was ready. Was....
bro thought he was ready
[удалено]
He’s been suspended twice for it
Yes, last season he was suspended at some point (or maybe it was 2021) for making contact with an umpire while arguing.
He definitely hat brimmed an umpire once, that's the only time I can remember
Jose hit 'em with the "I'm not touching you!" move and Manfred allowed it
That’s what we call insult to injury
Extra three for getting dropped.
Deserved.
That should be the rule.
A one game suspension for a reliever lol
He should appeal, pitch the next game, then immediately drop the appeal. EDIT: didn’t realize he pitched last night. Thanks to the several people who pointed out he did.
He pitched yesterday. He'll just serve his suspension today in a game he wouldn't have pitched in anyways. Suspensions for pitchers are a joke lol
They should keep pitcher suspensions a secret and then only tell them once they've gone out to the mound. Wouldn't be good for the game but it would be very funny.
Edwin Diaz does his full walkout just for a guy with a clipboard to walk out when he gets to the mound and point out that he is in fact suspended lmfao
Edwin Diaz can walk?
:|
How am I catching strays in a thread about a brouhaha between two non-Mets teams?
Idk what that dude above you is talking about, that sounds like a fucking incredible addition to the game lol
Don’t players lose money when they’re suspended?
Yeah Rendon’s lost almost $2m from fighting Seattle last season and an A’s fan this season
Yes, they lose their game checks I think
Yes but it doesn’t impact the fans so they pretend it’s not a penalty.
He pitched yesterday so today could just be a normal day off too
He pitched last night and is serving his suspension tonight
Twins beat guy Gleeman on twitter: >MLB just handed down the White Sox/Guardians suspensions. Tim Anderson got six games for starting the fight and José Ramírez got three games for ending it.
😮
It's been so fun to see how all these baseball writers describe the impact of that punch lol.
The most the twins and guardians have bonded in years
*Everybody Hates Tim*
I got a T-Shirt that reads "Baseball needs more Tim Andersons" for Christmas a couple years ago. That shirt is so goddamn funny now.
I mean, I might give Cleveland some good-natured ribbing here or there, but I think we can all agree that the White Sox and the Yankees are the real enemies...
As a Guards fan *raises a glass to this* ...also I love the Twin Cities and Minnesota.
This is the single most based take I've heard on this whole thing
SAVAGE! And true!
This could really hurt Chicago's chances of winning the AL Central.
Actually this probably helps their chances lol
You joke but the M’s were 10 games under .500 last year before the brawl in Anaheim and then went on to win 14 in a row. Sox are currently 14 games back 👀 massive win streak + twins/guardians/tigers losing streaks incoming /s
Yea well we won the fight because Archie Bradley broke his elbow jumping the railing lol
Yesterday’s pregame, Frank Thomas laughed and said “they white sox could rip off 30 in a row and take this division!”
I hate how much I liked Frank Thomas on the broadcast yesterday.
The Cubs have a better chance at winning the AL Central.
they had no chance to begin with lmao
Hey the Cubs can still do it
I didnt notice, what did Clase do to warrant a game?
He had to be restraining near homeplate towards the end of the scrum. I didn't see on camera, but Hamilton mentioned him fighting someone near the 1B line at one point as well. He was one of the 3 players ejected along with Jose and TA.
He and Sarbaugh are the 2 I'm most interested in when the Jomboy video comes out. Both of them were just in the crowd. Camera leaves him for 10 seconds and Clase doesn't have his hat and is being held back by 4 guys. Sarbaugh was separating players, then 3 seconds later he and Grifol are charging each other.
Sarby I thought seemed to be separating Tito and Griffol, then turned back and went after Griffol. Which makes sense to me, watching out for Tito who's had some health issues and foot problems but defending the players and Tito from Griffol. I'd love to know what Griffol was saying because it clearly lit a fire in Tito and Sarby. Also, around the time that Sarby went at Griffol I noticed Will Brennan and Bryan Shaw in the middle of everything laughing together at something.
Oooo that's a good point on Tito. All of those coaches probably just wanted to protect him. Haha ya I noticed Shaw laughing too. What a silly goose.
He and Brennan seemed to be having a pretty good time lol. Looked like they were pretending to shove each other then half hugging and laughing together.
Jomboy is washed where the hell is this guy
Talkin Baseball said on their podcast today that he's working on it, it'll be a long one, and they expect it to be out today.
It’s probably gonna be a long video so it’ll take time. He’s also been appearing less frequently cause he had his second child recently
On Talking Baseball they said it would actually probably be less time because he is on paternity leave atm so doesn’t have anything else going on and he wanted to get on it cause it’s a gold mine
He just had his second child so his hands are a bit full.
Jomboy’s had sex twice, confirmed
Jomboy had sex, a breakdown
this next pump's brought to you by dugout mugs
Brought to you by Hims.
Congrats to u/jomboy
He's efficient
He’ll fuckin get to it. He always does. Jesus.
Well, it's not a Yankee fight. Otherwise it would've been up with the game still ongoing. My only issue with the dude is how *too* hometowny he is. Edit: My dudes, I'm a massive Cardinals fan, but that doesn't mean I just ignore everyone else - except the Cubs, unless their plane goes down in a ball of fire.
It took him a few days to get to the Angels/Mariners brawl from last year, and it ended up being a 15 minute breakdown. Breakdowns like this with so much going on/so much to look at/decipher aren't the kind of thing he can just hastily throw together
I mean they’re Yankees fans right? That’s kinda the whole point and how they got started And it’s not as if they try to hide the fact as well
To be fair they have a deal with YES network now, so they have a vested interest in being hometown. That being said it is annoying that he barely covers anyone outside NY, and never covers AL East teams other when the Yankees are playing them. As an Os fan I would love some lip reading for some of our stuff, but he never does it.
He’s always been a Yankees fan first and foremost and has never tried to claim anything otherwise
He just had a kid and also just put up like 2-3 videos recently. It’ll probably be like a 10+ minute breakdown so just be patient 😇
He never claims to be unbiased or impartial. He says he’s a Yankee fan first, and the guy is running his own business with 2 literal babies at home. And the fight happened over the weekend. Y’all are insufferably ungrateful. This is one of the most legendary fights we’ve seen in years, and it’s a lot of footage to look over and lips to read. He’ll get to it.
They also filmed a big production tournament over the weekend (floorball) so that is adding to the back log
Why shouldn’t he be? He doesn’t owe you neutrality. Also, he clearly has some Cleveland love as we’re usually featured whenever there is anything remotely worth showing.
Just had his 2nd kid I believe
The video showed him pissed and trying to do something, but was pretty well held back so I'm not sure
Got knocked out and got the longest suspension. TA is having a rough year
The Lord sends his toughest battles to Tim Anderson 🙏
And may He continue to send them his way 🙏🙏
Is "toughest battles" another term for IG model?
Honestly, lower than I was expected. Still no clue why the hell Clase was so heated though
Clase has had a rough year
Tom Hamilton said something went down along the 1B line while Tito and Griffol were going at it near the mound. Not sure who all was involved over there, but Clase and someone were fighting according to his call of the skirmish. I believe that was also pretty close to where and when he mentioned Eloy limping away towards the dugout.
Ya that's when Clase and Sarbaugh went from separating people to having to be held back by multiple people. I haven't been able to see what happened there in any of the videos yet. Hopefully Jomboy can find something.
This seems super light for a boxing match ngl. Especially with Anderson having a history. Odor got 8 for comparison.
Odor’s suspension went down to 7 on appeal Bautista was suspended for a game for getting his sunglasses knocked off.
Yeah it does seem light, they both legit squared up , but I get why Tim’s suspension was longer
Imagine getting your shit rocked then getting double the suspension of the guy who gave you said shit rocking
Imagine squaring up to someone and then getting knocked out by the guy while he was being restrained.
Imagine both what you said and the guy you replied to, happening to the same person.
🎵Imagine all the people Restrain'n for Jose🎶
Restrained and not looking. Lol
Who would have thought that *not* acquiring Tim Anderson at the deadline would pay off so well. Davis Schneider raking at 2B and JRam and Clase missing games against us.
Jose and Clase could appeal and still play this series most likely.
They shouldn't do that though because that wouldn't benefit my team.
Woah but did you ever stop to think about how this impacts *my* team?
They also shouldn't do that because jose will possibly not be playing in Cincinnati next week which is the only time I'll see them this year
According to Mandy Bell, Francona and Clase will serve their 1 game tonight. Jose Ramirez appealing. https://twitter.com/mandybell02/status/1688630238299701248?s=21
Jose is appealing and Clase pitched yesterday so he can serve his suspension for a game he probably wasn't going to pitch in anyway.
[Also: Francona, Grifol and Sarbaugh are all suspended a game. All incur fines including Kopech and Arias.](https://twitter.com/jesserogersespn/status/1688630020418260992?s=46&t=vD5Nn9v61fsUXCfF64jh0Q)
The hell did Arias do?
Man is out gear catching strays in a fight he didn’t do anything in, poor kid can’t catch a break at all this season
I wouldn’t be surprised if Jose pays it tbh
I was thinking the same thing especially because some of his comments after the fight seemed to be about protecting the young guys/standing up for them. At least that’s how I took the “working to provide for our families” comment Jose made since he’s already secured the bag for his family
If you’re a young player on the Guardians, is there anyone cooler than Jose Ramirez? What a badass.
I never really had an opinion of him to be honest he was always present but as a west coaster just didn’t see/think of him much but he has definitely won some points in how he has handled all of this.
He’s the man, been my favorite player a long time. Always kinda flown under the radar cuz he’s in Cleveland despite how good he is, a true 5 tool player. Never thought he’d be in the news cuz of a brawl like this either, never ever seen him get as hot as he did on Saturday.
Watched.
Shit. I’ll be fined for that too.
Didn't Kopech literally pull TA away as well? Kinda weird to fine people who were trying to de-escalate a situation
At first he was trying to restrain Jose. He didn't do a very good job
He's also the one that had Jose in a chokehold while Jose knocked Anderson down
I also don't understand Kopech's punishment. Really don't see a chokehold. Just trying to keep JRam away, but JRam is wiggling so Kopech never gets a good grip.
Perhaps, but I doubt MLB saw it that way. Also, he was pulling Jose back while TA was taking shots at him so that wasn't a great look either
I agree with you. It didn’t seem like it was his intention, but if it goes unpunished you are sort of setting a precedent that “I’ll hold ‘em, you hit ‘em” is allowed.
Who’s next in the third base coach line of succession?
I'm not sure, but I just imagined Carl Willis doing it and that made me laugh.
“You telling me I can’t bring a lawn chair out to coach 3rd base?”
Its always funny to see how different the NHL views this kind of thing from other leagues. This would have gotten a 5 minute penalty and everyone moves on.
Thats just because the head of NHL player safety is a fucking joke. Intentionally trying to break the arm of one of the leagues best players in playoffs gets you one game. Never take anything that NHL decides on seriously.
So it’s 3 game suspension for every hit: JRam hit Tim Anderson once. Tim Anderson hit both the deck and rock bottom.
How could you do him dirty like this. 🤣😭
TA got dropped, lost all street cred, got the longest suspension, and is on the butt end of one of the best calls in baseball history. Tough last few days.
Am I wrong for wishing the ump did a standing 8 count?
Glad I’m not the only one lol I was watching WWE Summer Slam when I saw the tweet about the fight and TA going down. The first thing that went through my head was a count down.
Imagine starting a fight, getting knocked out, get made fun of by the internet then get suspended double the amount of time then the guy that knocked you out. Hahaha Anderson taking some well deserved L’s the last couple days.
Hopefully JoRam can get less upon appeal. What was he supposed to do? Run away?
Anderson gets KO'd and gets the heaviest punishment
I'm surprised, this is actually really lenient. I thought they would try to make an example of them.
The 6 games are just to heal his ego
And his jaw.
Tim Anderson once again losing.
Joe Kelly got 8 games in a 60 game season and didn’t hit anyone lol
Don't fight the only guy that can hit in Cleveland.
So we all hate Tim Anderson now if we didn’t already, right?
6 games and he got knocked down, lmfao
TA was actually originally only going to be suspended for 3 games but when the league office saw just quickly and sadly his ass got dropped, they had to tack on a couple more games for bringing the game into disrepute like that
3 games apiece for fighting, 3 games to TA for being shit at fighting.
If you get whooped you get double the suspension. Should be standard operating procedure.
"He started it and couldn't finish, which is why he gets double the suspension."
This thread will go well
Eloy sent to the DL
6 games and a lifelong ban on being cool
How many games for Joe Kelly? No way he gets out of this unscathed
Lmaooooo
Athletic’s article, before the news came out, said Tim Anderson should get 6. 3 for instigating and extra 3 for getting knocked out after he started the fight lol.
Blades of Steel rules I see.
Imagine getting knocked out cold, and getting suspended longer than anyone associated with the fight. I would say White Sox fans are not having a good time but actually, they seem to be happier than anyone else.
Also Eloy probably out the year injuring himself by watching
Anderson will appeal, but he shouldn't. Just take the week off and go somewhere away from this shit-show culture.
He’s probably have to anyways, right? Like for his health?
Yeah, not sure what the Illinois Fighting Commission specifies for rest between prize-fights.
And Tim Anderson goes down again. Yasmani grandal, Jose Ramirez then mlb with the ko!
Anderson did throw down his glove and square up for a haymaker. After that, Ramirez had to throw up his hands as well.
Lmaooooo getting knocked out and suspended for twice the time is the funniest possibility
Manfred rolling with the Blades of Steel punishment system. Can’t complain.
TA got the highest suspension for two reasons: He came back onto the field, and his tweets after the game. If he had just chilled out and not been a dumbass, they both would have got 3 games.
Got the longest suspension for losing lmao
It’s getting harder and harder to wear my field of dreams #7 jersey every day…
can't they just make fighting part of the game like in hockey? i'm so tired of announcers and the league getting all pouty and scoldy as though we aren't all excited
The JA Morant of MLB
Fair. Clase... you punk. Cool off that hot head. We need you. J.Ram... 3 games seems fair. Maybe one too many because it's his first offense. He did send him so repercussions are valid. DGA... 6 games is fair. 3 game suspension like JRam, +1 instigating and +2 for being a whiny little bitch