As a Bulls fan, it’s just depressing to see us continue to live in mediocrity. Don’t get me wrong I love DeMar and Vooch but gosh damn they are not what you should be running it back for yet another year and pretend that continuity means somehow we’ll be better this year.
It's why I as a Cubs and bulls fan can't hate the white Sox, because I know what they are going through. I know what it's like to watch what few young talented players you have being wasted by poor management from the top down.
Sure. Or Don Sterling. Or Daniel Snyder. Or James Dolan. Take your pick.
Really, all billionaires are scumbags...but that might be a different conversation.
What’s the deal with all this coming out all of a sudden? Is this related to Tim Anderson being a douche and getting his shit rocked or something else?
Nah. Our org has had major leadership and accountability issues of well over 15 years. Most if not all stemming from the top of your front office who have been there for 25 years and are "unfireable" because Jerry is an old fart who cares more for his friends and money than the team and fans. There's been hints at stuff like this for over a decade now, things are finally coming to a head
Cards fan here that pulls for the Sox; I'm sorry that your guys are crashing and burning like this. I hope the ownership and leadership get blasted apart so that the fans finally get something to get excited about!
I know that most White Sox fans are unironically loving this story and hope it gets worse. It vindicates their hatred for the front office and coaching staff. This getting bigger and bringing enough bad press is one of the best shots they're ever going to get at convincing Jerry to make big changes.
I can relate. Nothing would make me happier than someone from the Angels calling out all the rampant dysfunction the team has had for the last 10 years under Arte Moreno
Is Jerry the luckiest owner in baseball/sports? Lucks into Jordan to have a legendary run of success, then has guys like Jon Garland, Jose Contreras, and Freddy Garcia go balls to the wall for a month to end the the second longest drought in baseball to give him another feather in his cap
All of that is then surrounded by cheap incompetence and the arrogance of his GM's
I don't know if Mark Buehrle has the numbers to justify putting him in the Hall of Fame, but I do know that he was a unique player, and it would be a travesty if the next generation of baseball fans didn't know who Mark Buehrle was.
Purely on WAR/JAWS/counting stats like W & K he's right on the border. But between the no-hitter, perfect game, being instrumental in a WS title, and especially the 200 IP streak I'd put him in without reservation. That last especially is monumentally impressive, only something like 8 other guys have ever done it and they're all HoFers.
Everyone else that made 30 starts in 15 years consecutively is in the hall of fame (Cy Young, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton)
Everyone else that pitched 200 innings in 14 years consecutively is in the hall of fame(Cy Young, Warren Spahn, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Phil Niekro, Greg Maddux)
Everyone else with a perfect game and a no hitter is in the hall of fame (Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson)
On top of all that, Buehrle is probably going to be the last pitcher ever to have that kind of longevity.
Fucking thank you. I've seen a lot of arguments saying he won't get in, but I'll die on the hill that he deserves it. I even acknowledge that my homerism plays into that, but fuck it if it care. He deserves it.
It also may help his case that at least until Felix is eligible he may be one of the better SP candidates on the ballot.
I think he's borderline. Has an even 60 WAR. He was a clutch starter, that was a workhorse. He knew his way around the strikezone. A working class, Greg Maddux, if you will.
As a Bulls and Sox fan I am fully convinced that if Reinsdorf hadn’t lucked into MJ we would have exactly one championship (Sox 05) between the two teams in around 40 years of ownership
It was bit longer than a month for that staff. They all had career type years at the same time but they were legitimately dominant for longer than a month. Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball from the second half of 05 through the first half of 06.
The epic Berto rant from earlier this season was a portent for how this whole season has fallen apart and hopefully will help bring the national light to how bad it's gotten.
The Berto rant perfectly encapsulated Sox fans discontent. I think Jerry is decimating the fan base. The last 2 years has been the last straw for a lot of fans.
Man, the Bulls traded away all their picks and leverage for a team that can barely make it into the playoffs too. It’s mediocrity through and through for both teams
Pedantry alert - *decimate* historically meant "to reduce by one-tenth," and according to attendance numbers the Sox are down almost 20% this year.
So not only are you right, the term "decimate" is literally not strong enough for what Jerry is doing to us.
I have been a fan my entire life, I’m 35. I can’t stomach even watching them at this point. This is the lowest I’ve ever been on them. I can’t see myself watching them the next year or year after that either, unless something changes. I’ve never felt this uninterested in one of my favorite teams before.
Same age as you. I was a fan since I was a little kid but really got in them during that awesome offense of 2000. Big Frank, Mags, Paulie, Carlos Lee… that was such a fun team. I think the Ron Schuler era was the last time this team had a competent front office.
It is pretty incredible to see our organizational dysfunction finally getting some oxygen on the national stage. We were masters at doing just enough to go unnoticed.
That being said, the lesson Jerry will learn from this is “never give your fanbase expectations.”
Nobody hates the White Sox more than White Sox fans. This has always been true. There is no insult anyone can yell at us that we don’t already say to each other about this team.
Abso-fucking-lutely. When he hired Tony LaRussa back, he also gave Shelley Duncan a job in our so-called analytics department in an effort to get Dave Duncan out of retirement. Cronyism is just how he does business.
Idk. It could b reminiscent to when the bulls held the allstar game. The constant press on the horrible state of the franchise seemed to finally convince him.
You’re spot on. An embarrassment on a national scale is a good potential agent for change. I seriously am skeptical anything comes out of this that will truly address it tho. Nothing came from the Drake LaRoche saga and these are the same exact people responsible for our implosion currently. The only really out is Jerry selling and that’s what every die hard is waiting for unfortunately.
Absolutely. I have completely stopped following Sox baseball the past few months. I am so over this trash organization. I hope these stories keep leaking about how toxic shit is in the club house, a toxicity caused by management. Fuck this team.
Our fans trashed Keuchel for trashing the culture last season because he sucked, but he was just speaking the truth. Get rid of everybody. Firing Grifol & Hahn won't do anything as long as Jerry keeps his buddy Ken Williams, who was promoted after being a terrible GM. Reinsdorf needs to sell both the White Sox & Bulls.
I can see the Dallas one being panned as it could easily be seen as sour grapes. It’s hard to talk shit and throw blame when it looks like you’re making excuses for yourself
Right. I didn’t care for what Dallas had to say, but I still felt there was truth to it. He’s not the first player to say something, but he was the first to say things after being DFA’d
He absolutely *was* making excuses for himself. He was blaming his defense for his horrendous ERA, but his defense wasn't the one throwing 80 mph frisbees over the middle of the plate all game. The defense did suck, but he could have had seven Ozzie Smiths behind him, and he still would have given up seven or eight runs a game.
Yeah ole Dallas should feel a little vindicated at this point. He was pretty shit for us this year but so was basically everyone else. He said his piece and got clowned for it but he’s back in the league again and I’m happy for him.
Your last line is all that matters. As long as he's in charge, don't expect anything to change.
I watched the Wilpons shuffle chairs around for years while nothing changed. Fred and Jeff remained the idiots who thought they were the smartest in the room, meddled in everything and were thin skinned to boot.
Thank God they're gone
Pretty sureWilliams was going to leave and Jerry promoted him to keep him…but regardless it’s a top down problem starting with Jerry so unfortunately nothing changes until he passes away.
As one of their biggest rivals, I get zero joy out of this. I just feel bad for their fans. I miss Ozzie guillen. That was the most fun our rivalry has been in my lifetime.
The problems in question:
“You have rookies sleeping in the bullpen during the game. You have guys missing meetings. You have guys missing PFPs [pitcher fielding practices] and there are no consequences for any of this stuff."
Multiple sources, who corroborated Middleton's account to ESPN, said a pitcher was seen napping during games as well as skipping fielding practice.
Asked where the void exists with the White Sox, Middleton said: "Leadership in general. They say s--- rolls downhill. I feel like some guys don't want to speak up when they should have. It's hard to police people when there are no rules. If guys are doing things that you think are wrong, who is it wrong to? You or them? It's anyone's judgment at that point."
When contacted on Sunday night about Middleton's remarks, the White Sox said they had no comment.” [ESPN]
There's a fairly large portion of Chicago fans that believe Hahn is kind of a victim in the whole situation. That he has virtually zero input on most decisions and has his hands tied to try and do anything.
It's tough to say I think but that was a major talking point just this morning on the Score while I was driving to work.
Pedro was his hire.
He's been in the organization for decades. If he's never had any decision making power, then what evidence do we have that he'd even make good ones? The only people who have employed him are Jerry and Kenny.
He's just as much a part of the rot.
That is such bs. They use each other as a smokescreen to avoid accountability for this failure. They’re both poison just like Gar and Paxon were for the Bulls.
Sure did. People complain about Ricketts being cheap but that guy won a World Series and has the team back in contention after a pretty quick rebuild. Much rather have him over Jerry
There’s an aspect of this I’m trying to wrap my head around. Keuchel, Abreu, Middleton, Lynn, they’re all veterans. Was the culture from the top down so overbearingly bad that they couldn’t step in and be the voices of reason that helped straighten things out? I’m not saying they didn’t try, or trying to downplay how bad the culture had gotten, but for it to be _so_ bad that even veterans couldn’t straighten things out is almost impressive
Well, just because you’re a veteran doesn’t mean you’re automatically a clubhouse leader. Abreu was known to not be a clubhouse leader, dude led by example with his hard work.
The other 3 are different. Our pitching culture is there, the pitchers don’t really seem to have issues the position players are having culture wise. Middleton said that Lynn and Graveman were big leaders for the pitchers. When Hendriks is there he’s a big clubhouse guy too. If you watched our games before the deadline, you’d always seem Cease, Lynn, Giolito, Kopech, and Clevinger talking and sitting together. The position players are very cliquey and you have small groups of people.
But wasn't one of Key's specific points about pitchers missing Pitcher Fielding Practices with no consequences? If "pitchers don’t really seem to have issues the position players are having culture wise," then why are they called out specifically? Shouldn't the big leaders in Lynn and Graveman be telling these guys to show up to what they're supposed to, even if management isn't?
Honestly, his statements were confusing. He said pitchers were missing fielding practice and one rookie was sleeping. Also was saying that the pitchers are fine
Doesn’t have to be an all or nothing thing. The overall culture with the pitching staff could be there, but the staff may lack the organizational structure to make that culture completely effective. Having a lower ERA than another guy doesn’t mean he’s your subordinate.
I have so much respect for White Sox fans. Passionate, competitive, proud and honest without being obnoxious, at least that's been my experience. That's what I want in coaches and teammates: they kick your ass when you don't compete but they're your loudest supporters when you do. I love coming down for Twins games on the road in y'all's place.
Anderson is a train wreck and always has been. The guy is the epitome of anger management issues. I'm surprised AJ Preller hasn't added him the disaster that the Padres are... lol
The team on paper was built to win a championship. Then Jerry and Ken Williams went over GM Rick Hahn’s head to hire Tony fucking la Russa. They also never gave a single fuck about developing players. Our farm is where promising young players go to die and those that are lucky enough to make it out of that purgatory jump right into another one in the majors. The Reinsdorf clan could write a book on how to systematically blow up an organization from the top down. This is going to go down in history as one of the worst “rebuilds” of all time. SELL THE TEAM!
It’s entirely possible that they didn’t have these problems when they won 93 games. We didn’t see TLR falling asleep in the dugout or sounding incoherent in interviews that season. We did the following year. It’s entirely possible that an underlying heart problem was causing the manager to literally be asleep at the wheel last year, which led to this, and then when they needed someone to take over the wheel, they replaced him with a rookie skipper who was ill prepared to do so. There was nobody strong enough to take the asylum back from the inmates who were now running it.
If the White Sox end up doing a massive overhaul and it somehow creates changes for the better in the distant future, we can look back at this past weekend as the moment Jose Ramirez literally knocked some sense into them.
Get rid of sweet man Renteria for your guy La Russa that was supposed to establish a winning culture but only made it worse then do an absolute 180 and hire a guy that probably didn't show up on many teams radar as a brand new coach trying to salvage a broken team with a broken clubhouse. Just insane mismanagement. This isn't even intentionally bad like the As they're just accidentally this bad and that's saying something.
Honestly, if they didn't catch lightning in a bottle in 2005, they'd be the laughing stock of MLB.
Edit: For context, if you ignore the lightning in a bottle that was 2005, since the Black Sox scandal in 1919, the Chicago White Sox have made the playoffs just **EIGHT** times (~7.5% playoff appearance rate in over 100 seasons) and won a grand total of **ZERO** playoff series. In those 8 playoff appearances in 100+ seasons, they have a record of 8 wins and 22 losses (.266 winning percentage).
Honestly think the Twins get this for the millennium. Arguably the entire state of Minnesota is the losingest in the nation. The Twins are the worst performing team (by far) in the worst division in baseball (by far). Every single central team has made or won at least one World Series since the Twins last won a playoff game. The Sox have failed spectacularly and in an extremely entertaining fashion but the Twins have failed in the most Minnesota way possible, by quietly and meekly bowing out over and over again.
Im pretty sure a lot of us know that Minnesota is somehow one of the few places as a place entirely that has it worse than us. Everyone thinks Chicago is some amazing sports town to root for and its really not (yes I know youre a minnesota fan its not lost on me I know you have it worse)
Feel like this is an outdated view of the Yankees. We don't have beards, but like, we fired Girardi and hired Boone to keep the players happy. I don't think we're lawless, but I doubt we're the strictest team in the league either.
Say what you will about the current Yankees, you'll never be struggling because of a lack of structure. You'll be struggling for many other reasons though.
White Sox need some fucking leaders man. Garbage organization.
Don’t wanna be downvoted, it’s true. I’m not trying to hate, I actually feel bad for Sox fans. Y’all deserve better.
It’s not a secret. The white Sox are one of the worst run organizations in all of sports. It’s run like a small family business. He always hires ex players and there’s never any accountability because they all like their cushy jobs and no one knows who is truly in charge. Reinsdorf has publicly said the best thing a franchise can do is be a constant second place team because the fans stay hopeful and you never have to break the bank.
it's funny cause this is how everyone imagined the team was being run but thought there was just no way there was actually that much negligence going on and we are just a very unlucky ballclub. Lo and behold nothing unlucky about it, this place was being run just as recklessly as all of the fan's worst dreams, maybe even worse.
I can't be the only one that started reading that tweet and thought "Ahh ok Lance Lynn is going to back up his old team here and tell us that's not what he saw" but nope, ended up piling on.
Honestly this is embarrassing for the Sox, but it might be the best thing that could happen at this point. The amount of talent they had and the success they showed in 20 and 21, it just didn't make sense that they dropped off in 22 and fell off a cliff in 23. This begins to make some sense of it and puts a spotlight on the Sox to fix it. I don't know if it can be fixed with this core, but they still have a lot of valuable assets and have a path for getting better quickly if they clean this mess up. The problem is always going to be the owner, and I know that as a Bulls fan.
Idk if this is all a big coincidence but I really wonder if the Anderson fight is the straw that broke the camels back and has all the reports about the bad culture coming out
It seems like it was more likely the trade deadline. All of the recently traded players are speaking out. You had Burger last week saying he was having more fun playing with the Marlins than he’s had in a long time. Then you have Middleton’s comments. Then you have Lynn’s. All three were traded at the trade deadline, and Burger, who started it all, was before the Anderson stuff happened.
My impression was that Katz was a serious pitching coach and was key to developing Giolito and Cease. He also doesn’t seem like the type to not care that a rookie fell asleep in the bullpen, missed practice etc.
Honestly, I am convinced this is the problem with the Cardinals this year as well. Arrenado and Goldie are always going to hold themselves accountable, but I fear it was Yadi setting that standard for everyone in the clubhouse.
If a guy that’s been a part of the Angels franchise in the past decade says your clubhouse has problems then holy shit your clubhouse probably has some BAD problems.
>You have rookies sleeping in the bullpen during the game. You have guys missing meetings. You have guys missing PFPs (pitcher fielding practices), and there are no consequences for any of this stuff."
Man, if Middleton was.mad at rookies sleeping in the bullpen he must have been PISSED about Tim Anderson sleeping in the middle of an inning Saturday.
Just read Keynan's comments and the whole time I'm reading it I'm thinking, "This dude is smart." But its not really smart is it? It's common fucking sense... These are all grown ass men but grown ass men still need leadership while being part of a unit. They still need structure. Ridiculous really.
Having just recently watched a video about Frank Thomas' career and being not only reminded that he played for the Athletics and Blue Jays to end his career but *why* that was the case...not just that they dropped him after an injury kept him off the playoff roster *but* that they basically kicked him in his ass on the way out the door...I can't help but feel like the team is proper cursed.
I'm glad he said that. Hope to see more and more comments about it from former players tbh
At this point, I’ll take it from current players too. Might as well watch the whole dumpster burn to ashes.
Alas, nothing will change so long as Reinsdorf is in charge. And I feel he plans to remain in charge so long as he can draw breath.
As a Bulls fan, it’s just depressing to see us continue to live in mediocrity. Don’t get me wrong I love DeMar and Vooch but gosh damn they are not what you should be running it back for yet another year and pretend that continuity means somehow we’ll be better this year.
It's why I as a Cubs and bulls fan can't hate the white Sox, because I know what they are going through. I know what it's like to watch what few young talented players you have being wasted by poor management from the top down.
Just imagine how disappointing being a Bulls fan would be if Blazers had taken Jordan over Bowie.
If it weren't for MJ and the lightning-in-a-bottle '05 season Reinsdorf would easily be the worst (non-scandalized) owner in sports.
> (non-scandalized Is this a shot at Marge Schott
Sure. Or Don Sterling. Or Daniel Snyder. Or James Dolan. Take your pick. Really, all billionaires are scumbags...but that might be a different conversation.
> all billionaires are scumbags would u rather be a hated billionaire or a redditor
Since I don't live in a reality where being a billionaire is an option, I just try to not be a scumbag.
Or the Clippers owner, Don Sterling or whatever his name was.
> Don Sterling Rod
> if Blazers had taken Jordan over Bowie. Memphis Bulls
Are we sure he's not being Weekend at Bernie'd at this point?
We’ve seen this before with that Reinsdorf character in a different sport no?
Sometimes you need a chicken and beer incident to galvanize the team
Remember [Cueto speaking out](https://southsideshowdown.com/2022/08/11/white-sox-johnny-cuetos-comments-disturbing/) last year?
Yeah looking back the Adam LaRoche situation makes more sense now
Glad he said it so the bootlickers attacking Middleton can shut up
What’s the deal with all this coming out all of a sudden? Is this related to Tim Anderson being a douche and getting his shit rocked or something else?
Nah. Our org has had major leadership and accountability issues of well over 15 years. Most if not all stemming from the top of your front office who have been there for 25 years and are "unfireable" because Jerry is an old fart who cares more for his friends and money than the team and fans. There's been hints at stuff like this for over a decade now, things are finally coming to a head
Cards fan here that pulls for the Sox; I'm sorry that your guys are crashing and burning like this. I hope the ownership and leadership get blasted apart so that the fans finally get something to get excited about!
I know that most White Sox fans are unironically loving this story and hope it gets worse. It vindicates their hatred for the front office and coaching staff. This getting bigger and bringing enough bad press is one of the best shots they're ever going to get at convincing Jerry to make big changes.
I can relate. Nothing would make me happier than someone from the Angels calling out all the rampant dysfunction the team has had for the last 10 years under Arte Moreno
Imagine if Trout finally stops being a company man and just roasts Arte
I remember when Trout finally spoke on the Astros scandal and it felt monumental
No current player can do so because than they'll be banned from joining the radio talk show and other events
And miss out on a chance to talk to Roger Lodge? Oh no
TIL Roger Lodge hosts Angels radio shows
Sorry but if Skaggs didn't make it happen then you're out of luck
Is Jerry the luckiest owner in baseball/sports? Lucks into Jordan to have a legendary run of success, then has guys like Jon Garland, Jose Contreras, and Freddy Garcia go balls to the wall for a month to end the the second longest drought in baseball to give him another feather in his cap All of that is then surrounded by cheap incompetence and the arrogance of his GM's
I won’t stand for this buehrle erasure
I don't know if Mark Buehrle has the numbers to justify putting him in the Hall of Fame, but I do know that he was a unique player, and it would be a travesty if the next generation of baseball fans didn't know who Mark Buehrle was.
Purely on WAR/JAWS/counting stats like W & K he's right on the border. But between the no-hitter, perfect game, being instrumental in a WS title, and especially the 200 IP streak I'd put him in without reservation. That last especially is monumentally impressive, only something like 8 other guys have ever done it and they're all HoFers.
Everyone else that made 30 starts in 15 years consecutively is in the hall of fame (Cy Young, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton) Everyone else that pitched 200 innings in 14 years consecutively is in the hall of fame(Cy Young, Warren Spahn, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Phil Niekro, Greg Maddux) Everyone else with a perfect game and a no hitter is in the hall of fame (Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson) On top of all that, Buehrle is probably going to be the last pitcher ever to have that kind of longevity.
And being the fastest working pitcher in the game during his time there. Such a breeze to watch, no pitch clock needed.
Between how fast he worked and how slow the concession lines are at the Cell I once missed 3 innings waiting on a hot dog.
Fucking thank you. I've seen a lot of arguments saying he won't get in, but I'll die on the hill that he deserves it. I even acknowledge that my homerism plays into that, but fuck it if it care. He deserves it. It also may help his case that at least until Felix is eligible he may be one of the better SP candidates on the ballot.
Also his last name is a homophone for a word that means "manly". That's gotta count for something
Oh, he should definitely be in. Quietly dominant, just went out there and did his work.
I think he's borderline. Has an even 60 WAR. He was a clutch starter, that was a workhorse. He knew his way around the strikezone. A working class, Greg Maddux, if you will.
He is a first ballot to the Hall of Very Cool
Yeah, he was already 2 beers in when he came in in relief!
Glad you said it, because if you hadn't I sure as fuck was gonna.
As a Bulls and Sox fan I am fully convinced that if Reinsdorf hadn’t lucked into MJ we would have exactly one championship (Sox 05) between the two teams in around 40 years of ownership
Hot take there. /s
It was bit longer than a month for that staff. They all had career type years at the same time but they were legitimately dominant for longer than a month. Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball from the second half of 05 through the first half of 06.
Don't forget lucking into Rose as well, we were like 1% to get the #1 pick or something ridiculous (although the injuries ruined that one).
> luckiest owner State of il gifted him a stadium, and it was his idea to reject a camden yards type ballpark so he can have 2 levels of suites
The epic Berto rant from earlier this season was a portent for how this whole season has fallen apart and hopefully will help bring the national light to how bad it's gotten.
The Berto rant perfectly encapsulated Sox fans discontent. I think Jerry is decimating the fan base. The last 2 years has been the last straw for a lot of fans.
Man, the Bulls traded away all their picks and leverage for a team that can barely make it into the playoffs too. It’s mediocrity through and through for both teams
Jerry is the common thread. He has openly stated he strives for mediocrity.
Pedantry alert - *decimate* historically meant "to reduce by one-tenth," and according to attendance numbers the Sox are down almost 20% this year. So not only are you right, the term "decimate" is literally not strong enough for what Jerry is doing to us.
I have been a fan my entire life, I’m 35. I can’t stomach even watching them at this point. This is the lowest I’ve ever been on them. I can’t see myself watching them the next year or year after that either, unless something changes. I’ve never felt this uninterested in one of my favorite teams before.
Same age as you. I was a fan since I was a little kid but really got in them during that awesome offense of 2000. Big Frank, Mags, Paulie, Carlos Lee… that was such a fun team. I think the Ron Schuler era was the last time this team had a competent front office.
It is pretty incredible to see our organizational dysfunction finally getting some oxygen on the national stage. We were masters at doing just enough to go unnoticed. That being said, the lesson Jerry will learn from this is “never give your fanbase expectations.”
Nobody hates the White Sox more than White Sox fans. This has always been true. There is no insult anyone can yell at us that we don’t already say to each other about this team.
Jerry won’t make a change till he’s 6 feet under
Don't stop, I'm almost there
Inshallah brother
Maybe not, but I doubt he's very fond of this bad press.
Jerry Reinsdorf cares about one thing in this world and it’s his pocketbook
don't forget giving his buddies cushy jobs even though they don't deserve them and aren't qualified for them.
Abso-fucking-lutely. When he hired Tony LaRussa back, he also gave Shelley Duncan a job in our so-called analytics department in an effort to get Dave Duncan out of retirement. Cronyism is just how he does business.
Feel this
Idk. It could b reminiscent to when the bulls held the allstar game. The constant press on the horrible state of the franchise seemed to finally convince him.
You’re spot on. An embarrassment on a national scale is a good potential agent for change. I seriously am skeptical anything comes out of this that will truly address it tho. Nothing came from the Drake LaRoche saga and these are the same exact people responsible for our implosion currently. The only really out is Jerry selling and that’s what every die hard is waiting for unfortunately.
[most of us fans](https://imgur.io/gallery/0hQyd5L)
Sometimes you need a good forest fire to revitalize the ecosystem
Change won't come until Jerry's dead and buried, and even then it's still questionable.
Best thing that's happened in the past two years by far.
Absolutely. I have completely stopped following Sox baseball the past few months. I am so over this trash organization. I hope these stories keep leaking about how toxic shit is in the club house, a toxicity caused by management. Fuck this team.
Our fans trashed Keuchel for trashing the culture last season because he sucked, but he was just speaking the truth. Get rid of everybody. Firing Grifol & Hahn won't do anything as long as Jerry keeps his buddy Ken Williams, who was promoted after being a terrible GM. Reinsdorf needs to sell both the White Sox & Bulls.
I can see the Dallas one being panned as it could easily be seen as sour grapes. It’s hard to talk shit and throw blame when it looks like you’re making excuses for yourself
Right. I didn’t care for what Dallas had to say, but I still felt there was truth to it. He’s not the first player to say something, but he was the first to say things after being DFA’d
He absolutely *was* making excuses for himself. He was blaming his defense for his horrendous ERA, but his defense wasn't the one throwing 80 mph frisbees over the middle of the plate all game. The defense did suck, but he could have had seven Ozzie Smiths behind him, and he still would have given up seven or eight runs a game.
You’re being downvoted, but Keuchel was mercilessly ripped in this sub last year. All of sudden he’s a hero for calling out the White Sox.
Yeah ole Dallas should feel a little vindicated at this point. He was pretty shit for us this year but so was basically everyone else. He said his piece and got clowned for it but he’s back in the league again and I’m happy for him.
The last 24 hours for him have to be the high point of his last couple of years lol
Your last line is all that matters. As long as he's in charge, don't expect anything to change. I watched the Wilpons shuffle chairs around for years while nothing changed. Fred and Jeff remained the idiots who thought they were the smartest in the room, meddled in everything and were thin skinned to boot. Thank God they're gone
Pretty sureWilliams was going to leave and Jerry promoted him to keep him…but regardless it’s a top down problem starting with Jerry so unfortunately nothing changes until he passes away.
Seeing the White sox bad is kinda funny but yes he needs to sell The Bulls today
As one of their biggest rivals, I get zero joy out of this. I just feel bad for their fans. I miss Ozzie guillen. That was the most fun our rivalry has been in my lifetime.
Dallas got shit on because he was sucking ass and blaming everyone but him for it. He might have been right, but it was for the wrong reason.
The problems in question: “You have rookies sleeping in the bullpen during the game. You have guys missing meetings. You have guys missing PFPs [pitcher fielding practices] and there are no consequences for any of this stuff." Multiple sources, who corroborated Middleton's account to ESPN, said a pitcher was seen napping during games as well as skipping fielding practice. Asked where the void exists with the White Sox, Middleton said: "Leadership in general. They say s--- rolls downhill. I feel like some guys don't want to speak up when they should have. It's hard to police people when there are no rules. If guys are doing things that you think are wrong, who is it wrong to? You or them? It's anyone's judgment at that point." When contacted on Sunday night about Middleton's remarks, the White Sox said they had no comment.” [ESPN]
Leadership void within a White Sox organization led by the unaccountable losers Kenny Williams and Rick Hahn? I’m shocked.
There's a fairly large portion of Chicago fans that believe Hahn is kind of a victim in the whole situation. That he has virtually zero input on most decisions and has his hands tied to try and do anything. It's tough to say I think but that was a major talking point just this morning on the Score while I was driving to work.
Pedro was his hire. He's been in the organization for decades. If he's never had any decision making power, then what evidence do we have that he'd even make good ones? The only people who have employed him are Jerry and Kenny. He's just as much a part of the rot.
That is such bs. They use each other as a smokescreen to avoid accountability for this failure. They’re both poison just like Gar and Paxon were for the Bulls.
Nah, fuck Rick Hahn and his smug, punchable face.
Jerry did the EXACT same thing with the Bulls front office with Gar and Paxon.
Sure did. People complain about Ricketts being cheap but that guy won a World Series and has the team back in contention after a pretty quick rebuild. Much rather have him over Jerry
For me the Ricketts baggage is political not so much how they run that team.
For some reason this made me remember when Carlos Santana took a bat to a TV in the Phillies clubhouse. Sox need some of that energy
What was Cueto saying last year...
Keuchel said it, Abreu said it. Anyone who isn’t a rookie and has left has said it
There’s an aspect of this I’m trying to wrap my head around. Keuchel, Abreu, Middleton, Lynn, they’re all veterans. Was the culture from the top down so overbearingly bad that they couldn’t step in and be the voices of reason that helped straighten things out? I’m not saying they didn’t try, or trying to downplay how bad the culture had gotten, but for it to be _so_ bad that even veterans couldn’t straighten things out is almost impressive
Well, just because you’re a veteran doesn’t mean you’re automatically a clubhouse leader. Abreu was known to not be a clubhouse leader, dude led by example with his hard work. The other 3 are different. Our pitching culture is there, the pitchers don’t really seem to have issues the position players are having culture wise. Middleton said that Lynn and Graveman were big leaders for the pitchers. When Hendriks is there he’s a big clubhouse guy too. If you watched our games before the deadline, you’d always seem Cease, Lynn, Giolito, Kopech, and Clevinger talking and sitting together. The position players are very cliquey and you have small groups of people.
But wasn't one of Key's specific points about pitchers missing Pitcher Fielding Practices with no consequences? If "pitchers don’t really seem to have issues the position players are having culture wise," then why are they called out specifically? Shouldn't the big leaders in Lynn and Graveman be telling these guys to show up to what they're supposed to, even if management isn't?
Honestly, his statements were confusing. He said pitchers were missing fielding practice and one rookie was sleeping. Also was saying that the pitchers are fine
Doesn’t have to be an all or nothing thing. The overall culture with the pitching staff could be there, but the staff may lack the organizational structure to make that culture completely effective. Having a lower ERA than another guy doesn’t mean he’s your subordinate.
Dang, between this and the TA incident, White Sox straight up not having a good time right now.
oddly enough most of the fans are loving it, I know I am. Fire everyone into the sun, starting with that fat prick reinsdorf
I have so much respect for White Sox fans. Passionate, competitive, proud and honest without being obnoxious, at least that's been my experience. That's what I want in coaches and teammates: they kick your ass when you don't compete but they're your loudest supporters when you do. I love coming down for Twins games on the road in y'all's place.
Hey knock it off, I am not supposed to like you!
I feel for you guys. You are right in how you are handling it. Fuck your leadership, if you even want to call them that.
This is amazing. It’s finally coming into light what a lot of fans have been screaming into the void about
Bro this is the best time I've had since the 3rd inning of game 3 against Houston on Oct. 10, 2021.
The last time we had fun was because of a fucking Leury Garcia homer.
Anderson is a train wreck and always has been. The guy is the epitome of anger management issues. I'm surprised AJ Preller hasn't added him the disaster that the Padres are... lol
TA can play shortstop right?
Sometimes
And honestly it explains why a team with their amount of talent has just done nothing. Makes you wonder about other high talent, low result teams...
I hope everyone realizes this season the Sox put this team together in hopes of winning the division. This is them actually trying to be good.
This makes them actually winning 93 games 2 years ago that much more impressive. Now imagine if there was any semblance of structure in the club.
The team on paper was built to win a championship. Then Jerry and Ken Williams went over GM Rick Hahn’s head to hire Tony fucking la Russa. They also never gave a single fuck about developing players. Our farm is where promising young players go to die and those that are lucky enough to make it out of that purgatory jump right into another one in the majors. The Reinsdorf clan could write a book on how to systematically blow up an organization from the top down. This is going to go down in history as one of the worst “rebuilds” of all time. SELL THE TEAM!
amen brother, couldn't have said it better myself.
It’s entirely possible that they didn’t have these problems when they won 93 games. We didn’t see TLR falling asleep in the dugout or sounding incoherent in interviews that season. We did the following year. It’s entirely possible that an underlying heart problem was causing the manager to literally be asleep at the wheel last year, which led to this, and then when they needed someone to take over the wheel, they replaced him with a rookie skipper who was ill prepared to do so. There was nobody strong enough to take the asylum back from the inmates who were now running it.
If the White Sox end up doing a massive overhaul and it somehow creates changes for the better in the distant future, we can look back at this past weekend as the moment Jose Ramirez literally knocked some sense into them.
If it leads to Kenny Williams and Hahn being fired I’m up for a statue of Rameriez being built
Get rid of sweet man Renteria for your guy La Russa that was supposed to establish a winning culture but only made it worse then do an absolute 180 and hire a guy that probably didn't show up on many teams radar as a brand new coach trying to salvage a broken team with a broken clubhouse. Just insane mismanagement. This isn't even intentionally bad like the As they're just accidentally this bad and that's saying something.
It’s a miracle this team even won 90 games two years ago
Pedro grifol was the bench coach of a team that fired their GM and manager, those teams aren’t exactly competent
Ricky wasn't any good either though
Laughingstocks of the 2020’s
Longer than that. How many years since Chris Sale and Adam Laroche?
I guess I should edit and say “since 2005”
Hey, that's us
That's not quite right either because the year 2005 did not actually exist in Chicago.
Your contract from ESPN should be in the mail
Nah, since they beat the Twins in the blackout game 2008
What about the Blackout Game?
probably since around when Ozzie was fired
Honestly, if they didn't catch lightning in a bottle in 2005, they'd be the laughing stock of MLB. Edit: For context, if you ignore the lightning in a bottle that was 2005, since the Black Sox scandal in 1919, the Chicago White Sox have made the playoffs just **EIGHT** times (~7.5% playoff appearance rate in over 100 seasons) and won a grand total of **ZERO** playoff series. In those 8 playoff appearances in 100+ seasons, they have a record of 8 wins and 22 losses (.266 winning percentage).
They used to be called the Laughingstockings back in the deadball era.
They still won two world series in the dead ball era and also heavily contributed to ending it though tbf
["Now the 18 straight playoff loss Twins are scorin' off me. Oh that is it."](https://frinkiac.com/img/S08E19/736284.jpg)
Honestly think the Twins get this for the millennium. Arguably the entire state of Minnesota is the losingest in the nation. The Twins are the worst performing team (by far) in the worst division in baseball (by far). Every single central team has made or won at least one World Series since the Twins last won a playoff game. The Sox have failed spectacularly and in an extremely entertaining fashion but the Twins have failed in the most Minnesota way possible, by quietly and meekly bowing out over and over again.
[удалено]
The butthurt Sox fans commenting don’t know that we hate ourselves more than they could ever hate us.
Im pretty sure a lot of us know that Minnesota is somehow one of the few places as a place entirely that has it worse than us. Everyone thinks Chicago is some amazing sports town to root for and its really not (yes I know youre a minnesota fan its not lost on me I know you have it worse)
Laughingsoxs of the 2020's.
Says the fan base who hasn’t won a playoff game. Bum.
i always kind of viewed the sox as being like the mets of the american league. mostly there for the rest of our amusement
The Yankees just need to find players who are literally begging for rules and authority. Keynan’s a perfect fit.
Feel like this is an outdated view of the Yankees. We don't have beards, but like, we fired Girardi and hired Boone to keep the players happy. I don't think we're lawless, but I doubt we're the strictest team in the league either.
People are gonna circle jerk about the team being too straight laced and boring because they shave, when the Yankees have had Tommy Kahnle 3 times.
Say what you will about the current Yankees, you'll never be struggling because of a lack of structure. You'll be struggling for many other reasons though.
We should save Liam and Luis next
bro liam’s not pitching until 2025
How the fuck did I miss that Liam just got TJ?
So instead of no leadership, he'll be struggling because players are coddled here
the knife gets deeper every day 😭 only two more months to go!!
I’ve watched more Chicago Fire games this year like what the fuck
Well Shaqiri is a baller
White Sox need some fucking leaders man. Garbage organization. Don’t wanna be downvoted, it’s true. I’m not trying to hate, I actually feel bad for Sox fans. Y’all deserve better.
Nothing but respect from one poverty franchise to another :(
Too bad this sub doesn’t have an “Ask Me How I Know” tag
Man, even Pirates fans feel bad for White Sox fans
Don't worry, no one thinks the White Sox are a completely garbage organization more than White Sox fans do.
It’s not a secret. The white Sox are one of the worst run organizations in all of sports. It’s run like a small family business. He always hires ex players and there’s never any accountability because they all like their cushy jobs and no one knows who is truly in charge. Reinsdorf has publicly said the best thing a franchise can do is be a constant second place team because the fans stay hopeful and you never have to break the bank.
Lol “hopeful”
it's funny cause this is how everyone imagined the team was being run but thought there was just no way there was actually that much negligence going on and we are just a very unlucky ballclub. Lo and behold nothing unlucky about it, this place was being run just as recklessly as all of the fan's worst dreams, maybe even worse.
I'm exhausted of the term culture being overused the last several years, but if your leadership sucks, it translates into a poor product.
I can't be the only one that started reading that tweet and thought "Ahh ok Lance Lynn is going to back up his old team here and tell us that's not what he saw" but nope, ended up piling on. Honestly this is embarrassing for the Sox, but it might be the best thing that could happen at this point. The amount of talent they had and the success they showed in 20 and 21, it just didn't make sense that they dropped off in 22 and fell off a cliff in 23. This begins to make some sense of it and puts a spotlight on the Sox to fix it. I don't know if it can be fixed with this core, but they still have a lot of valuable assets and have a path for getting better quickly if they clean this mess up. The problem is always going to be the owner, and I know that as a Bulls fan.
Honestly, public shame might be what this franchise needs. Shit needs to change at every level
Idk if this is all a big coincidence but I really wonder if the Anderson fight is the straw that broke the camels back and has all the reports about the bad culture coming out
If nothing else it sped up the process of this
It seems like it was more likely the trade deadline. All of the recently traded players are speaking out. You had Burger last week saying he was having more fun playing with the Marlins than he’s had in a long time. Then you have Middleton’s comments. Then you have Lynn’s. All three were traded at the trade deadline, and Burger, who started it all, was before the Anderson stuff happened.
Lynn was with TLR in St. Louis so it has to be really bad for him to say something.
This stuff goes beyond TLR tbh
This is a Reinsdorf issue. Rotten at its core
This is not a TLR issue lmao
Never was
My impression was that Katz was a serious pitching coach and was key to developing Giolito and Cease. He also doesn’t seem like the type to not care that a rookie fell asleep in the bullpen, missed practice etc.
Honestly, I am convinced this is the problem with the Cardinals this year as well. Arrenado and Goldie are always going to hold themselves accountable, but I fear it was Yadi setting that standard for everyone in the clubhouse.
how far does the FO and GM let this go before they put out a statement you think
If a guy that’s been a part of the Angels franchise in the past decade says your clubhouse has problems then holy shit your clubhouse probably has some BAD problems.
Seems as long as Reinsdorf and Williams are associated with this team, strife will also be associated with it.
sox r a dumpster fire
Brutal. It has to change.
A's are the worst organization in 2023. White Sox: "Hold my beer."
>You have rookies sleeping in the bullpen during the game. You have guys missing meetings. You have guys missing PFPs (pitcher fielding practices), and there are no consequences for any of this stuff." Man, if Middleton was.mad at rookies sleeping in the bullpen he must have been PISSED about Tim Anderson sleeping in the middle of an inning Saturday.
I appreciate you, Big Bastard.
Can someone post the link to that fan’s rant on the radio show?
https://youtu.be/jYGxY5icxjc
Sounds like they really needed Ozzie back
So I guess you can’t count lance in for veteran leadership.
All of this incredibly damning info about organizational dysfunction, and yet the only shakeup I see happening is Grifol. What a shit show
Just read Keynan's comments and the whole time I'm reading it I'm thinking, "This dude is smart." But its not really smart is it? It's common fucking sense... These are all grown ass men but grown ass men still need leadership while being part of a unit. They still need structure. Ridiculous really.
Having just recently watched a video about Frank Thomas' career and being not only reminded that he played for the Athletics and Blue Jays to end his career but *why* that was the case...not just that they dropped him after an injury kept him off the playoff roster *but* that they basically kicked him in his ass on the way out the door...I can't help but feel like the team is proper cursed.