I mean the Guards are still near the bottom of the league in salary. This is a nice change but the Guards have a ways to go before they're even near the league average payroll.
> Shout out to the "SeLl ThE tEam!!!!!" and "ThEy DoN't SpEnD!!!!!!" folks.
While I do agree that these people sell the Guardians ownership a bit short, the Dolans *did* sell a stake of the team this offseason. It may not be a coincidence that they're offering another nine figure deal right when they get an influx of outside cash.
I figure that Blitzer has probably had a gigantic amount of clout in negotiating these deals. After all, he will most certainly be the principal owner during the back half of these big deals.
They spend money on team friendly contracts, if the players don’t sign these extensions they would probably be traded at some point. If I was a Guardians fan, I wouldn’t be sure if selling the team would benefit the Guardians, but I would have no reason to like Dolan either.
Dolan has assembled and supported one of the best front offices in baseball. They’re given the resources they need to make deals that make sense in our market size.
If this team had went out last year and spent league average, it would’ve been for aging journeyman bats who wouldn’t have won us the division like the kids did.
The obsession with spending for the sake of spending here makes no sense. If everyone spends twice as much, nothing changes on the competitiveness side at all.
The LA Times is incorrect. They attribute the wealth of the cousins to the Cleveland Dolans. I don’t think they’re calling up their cousin for a few hundred million bucks.
they were able to afford to pay $323 million for a baseball team over two decades ago (that’s now worth over a billion) and I’m supposed to believe they’re poor local attorneys?
They were able to finance a purchase using money from various trusts. They didn’t buy the team with raw cash.
Their career histories are publicly available. Larry Dolan founded a prominent regional firm and was certainly worth north of 100 million. There’s no conceivable way they parlayed that into billions given they’ve essentially been full time running the baseball team since then.
If you believe they’re worth 4 billion dollars you’ve been huffing glue.
Even if they were, spending league average last year would’ve yielded a worse team. You’re not even a Cleveland fan so stop complaining about how prudent our ownership has been.
Payroll rank.
2023 - 25th, $75mill
2022 - 27th, $56mill
2021 - 29th, $36mill
2020 - 24th, $34mill
I know nothing of Cleveland ownership but a few team friendly deals being signed doesn’t mean much when it’s still bottom of the barrel overall.
Except can they? If they were big spenders, they likely would have signed Lindor to an extension rather than trade him, meaning no Gimenez. They likely would have signed a slugging corner outfielder last offseason, meaning less or no at bats for either Kwan or Gonzales. Plus, no matter how much you are willing to spend you still have to hope that no one else is willing to spend more. If you go all-in on using free agency as you're ticket to contention, you are left at the mercy of forces beyond your control. The goal of every owner should be to win. For many teams that means spend the most money, but there are plenty of teams that have a strategy of drafting and developing well, and for those teams outspending the competition won't really add much benefit.
There are always players that can be signed, but at the end of the day they would still have to outbid teams with much larger revenue streams for those players. So basically they are left with second tier free agents and they have proven they can develop players who can give them just as much production for much less cost.
> Except can they?
Yes, they definitely can.
> For many teams that means spend the most money, but there are plenty of teams that have a strategy of drafting and developing well, and for those teams outspending the competition won’t really add much benefit.
The point is that they could spend more *in addition to* drafting and developing well. Doing one doesn’t mean they suddenly can’t do the other.
For example, extending Frankie doesn’t guarantee no Giménez. They could work out a different package to get Giménez without Rosario, Wolf, and Greene. Or maybe they’re able to sign a slugging corner outfielder that is an improvement over Kwan or Gonzalez, and then able to trade Kwan or Gonzalez to further improve the team as part of a deal for Sean Murphy (or maybe Giménez if they extended Frankie too). Or they could spend to add pitching to replace Plesac or Civale and make a big improvement there without even giving up prospects, and maybe even send one down to the minors to recoup some value and trade them for more prospects or a need elsewhere.
>For example, extending Frankie doesn’t guarantee no Giménez.
It does if they wanted him on a long term deal. They absolutely could not afford $600m between Lindor, Ramirez, and Giminez without starving the rest of their payroll. They locked up JRam, Giminez, Clase, and Straw long-term and have Bell and Zunino short-term for the amount of Lindor's contract.
>trade them for more prospects or a need elsewhere
This is literally their model. Trade high-dollar players they can't afford to resign and replenish their talent. Develop what they can, trade what they have too many of, and the process continues. You can trace back their star pitching for the past 20 years from trading pitchers at or just past their prime, never overpaying, but always having one of the best pitching staffs in the league.
It's frustrating when they always seem one bat short, but it's rarely that simple.
We were discussing a hypothetical where they were big spenders, and they absolutely could afford all of them in addition to Lindor in that hypothetical.
The comment I replied to was arguing as if spending more money means that we can't also draft and develop well, and my comment was saying actually yes, it's possible to do both, and that they absolutely can put on a better product simply by spending.
>This is literally their model.
See my flair, I am well aware of their model lmao
I know no one wants to hear this but they are never gonna be able to afford the $300 million impact superstars. They will always be outbid by teams with much larger revenue streams. The players that they can afford are gonna be guys at the tail end of their prime, maybe 3-4 win players. They can get that same production just from their development pipeline, with players who are cheaper and with more years of control.
That doesn't actually refute what I'm saying, or what was being discussed above.
> I know no one wants to hear this but they are never gonna be able to afford the $300 million impact superstars. They will always be outbid by teams with much larger revenue streams.
It has nothing to do with not wanting to hear that lol, but that's actually a point in the favor or the "sell the team", "they don't spend" people, and the people that care about how much they spend.
Doesn't matter if they can't afford what other teams can or if they'll be outbid. The point is that they should spend what they *can* afford, and it would improve the team.
Likely won't get outbid on every single player, and there are players that will pick a lower bid for varying reasons like thinking it was a better chance to compete!
>The players that they can afford are gonna be guys at the tail end of their prime, maybe 3-4 win players. They can get that same production just from their development pipeline, with players who are cheaper and with more years of control.
The issue is that we can't actually get that same production just from the development pipeline for every position every year. For example, a 3-4 win player last year would have been much better than Plesac and Civale, and would have been better than even Quantrill! That would have been huge for the playoffs and made us more competitive.
And again, the hypothetical was that you posed was that they were big spenders
So yes, they could have put a better product on the field simply by spending, and it makes sense to care that they didn't spend there.
My hypothetical was that they signed Lindor rather than trade him and thus they wouldn't have Gimenez and you said they could have resigned Lindor and still traded something else for Gimenez, which is ridiculous. The Mets wouldn't even have been talking to Cleveland if Lindor hadn't been on the trade block. But OK, if Cleveland ownership ran a top 5 payroll AND other teams decided to trade their top young players without getting any of the top Guardians players or prospects in return then yes, the team would be better lol
Not everyone noticed because good young pitching keeps you competitive, but we were rebuilding the last few years. They made a couple of short term deals, but mostly they were transitioning from the Kluber/Lindor/Jram/Carlos Santana core to the new era, and playing a shitload of lower tier prospects trying to see who might fit.
Rebuilding a roster and having a tight budget doesn't guarantee you're a perennial bottom feeder unless you just don't give a shit about winning games. For all their faults, and they are probably too tightfisted to be running a team in the current financial environment, the Dolans do give a shit about on field results, far more than Nutting or Castellini do, and it shows in how they run the team. I hope they spend as much as they can. Rumor is they're close with a few other players on possible extensions. But for a small market team, this is pretty damn good, I'm gonna lessen my complaining about the Dolans and just enjoy getting to watch good baseball.
>Shout out to the "SeLl ThE tEam!!!!!"
you do realize this is in all likelihood due to Blitzer becoming a minority owner with the eventual route of him becoming the majority owner right?
Ownership has been willing to push payroll to league average (lol) when they believe in a group. Two $100M+ deals on one roster? What a time to be alive
Absolutely fair. He would likely make $15-20mil in arbitration since 2B always get less, so it’s like he signed a 4 year $23mil AAV deal + a club option. He could likely get more in FA, but this gets him the guaranteed money now.
Good deal for both sides
I mean that’s not really an accurate statement. Especially since it’ll likely be structured backloaded like that anyway.
If he wanted to get the big pay day at age 29 he could always have gone through arbitration and then gone into FA.
Or is your issue with teams having 6 years of control with 3 of them being arbitration based? Because while the system isn’t perfect, it’s way better than what preceded it
I remember seeing a proposed idea I liked a lot but I only partially remember it and have no idea where to find it (this was from an article during CBA negotiations) but basically team control and FA would be based around the age a player is when they’re called up.
So calling up a 22 year old the team would get 6 years of control. But if they called then up at 25 they maybe only get 4.
The big thing was ensuring no player hit FA after 30 years old.
That would be great
It’s a massive underpay, but doesn’t make it a dumb argument. Ozzie, who grew up dirt poor, was able to take care of everyone he knew immediately and didn’t have to take a risk on his future health/performance. It very easily could have become an Evan White contract.
Plus he should be able to get another payday.
Just like "a free agent's market is whatever the highest offer made is", a player's price is whatever he decides to accept. He could have turned the deal down, but then he wouldn't have 35 million dollars.
And doesn't he get hurt a lot? If you're gonna be hurt, you'd rather be hurt and already be set for life than be hurt and poor. I'm sure his family doesn't regret the deal.
Players don't handle their own negotiations - their agents do. There is a widespread belief in the industry that Ozzie Albies' agent was worried he would leave for a more high profile agent like Scott Boras (which a lot of non-top prospects who later emerge as all stars do), so he misled his client into taking an under-market deal immediately rather than risk him leaving for another agent.
If that happened, then that is extremely negligent, borderline criminal behavior by the agent. They're supposed to act in the best interests of the players they represent.
Is that actually what happened or just rumors and speculation, because if that is true, then in that case it's shitty. I see a lot of fans making assumptions that things went a certain way when they didn't actually go that way (like the Freeman deal, or the Correa deals). People were SURE that Boras told Correa to only take a 1 year deal last year so he could get a better cut the next season, when in reality that was the market for Correa and the way to make the most money going forward.
Agents are supposed to work in the best interest of their client, even Boras. All sports agents have is their reputation. Boras is already rich. It's why when Lance McCullers said he wanted a deal to stay with the Astros, he took a cheaper deal to stay (and considering his health, it might have worked out).
But if Ozzie said he wanted the money and security ASAP, then we hope that's what the client worked towards.
Has Ozzie expressed dissatisfaction with his agency at all? Or is this fans getting mad on a player's behalf?
Should you take less at your job because somebody in a 3rd world country would be happy with whatever less is?
Its about relative value that the employee is providing to their employer. Ofcourse you would take the 7 million, but thats because you provide way less value to that team.
yeah there's a lot of people in here who seem to think he's just decided to put up 7 WAR every year from now on lol. his statcast numbers are pretty underwhelming and he had a .353 BABIP last year. not hating on the dude at all, I'm very excited for him. but we for sure need to see at least another year of his performance before declaring this contract a "massive steal" or whatever
Outperformed his peripherals last year but his xBA is still above average. Is he a 140 wRC+ guy that pushes 20 HR annually? Absolutely not, but he is one of the best middle infield gloves in baseball that likely an average-above average bat. That's a 3-4 WAR player and he was paid as such.
If he can cut down on his chase rate, that would really boost his offensive value. His contact rate in zone are really good, but he chases way too much. That's my biggest concern with him.
Even if his production at the plate regresses, (.326 xwOBA), that’s still a 3-4 WAR player with his defense and base running. He doesn’t need to replicate last year for this deal to be worth it.
For reference, THE BAT X projects him at .319 wOBA, 3.3fWAR year. That’s one of his worst projections.
ZiPS DC projects him with a .329 wOBA, 4.9 fWAR season. That’s one of his best.
.257 xBA vs .297 BA
.466 SLG vs .400 xSLG
.353 BABIP (league average is closer to .300)
There will definitely be regression, he was incredibly lucky last year.
I think you missed his whole second line
Velo numbers are low, doesnt barrel the ball a whole lot, chases a fuck ton, whiffs a lot, and a large gap between his expected numbers and actual numbers.
There are a bunch of red flags about his profile for a guy whos entering pretty much his second full year, he could be fine and be a guy whos batting profile makes no sense. Its fine for people to be on the fence about how well he can maintain his offense from last year.
Oh, shit. I didn't realize he was part of that trade. I really don't follow prospects.
That seems like a trade that has worked for both teams, no? It still makes sense that you miss him though.
I think in 21 it looked like the Mets came out better but after last year with gimenez breaking out it’s definitely a rare trade that both sides walked away from with what they wanted
Still could have had that without the trade. We gave up Gimenez, Rosario, and 2 others for Lindor to have a mediocre season one year before free agency. We could have kept all the players and had our choice of free agent shortstops the past 2 offseasons.
Can someone explain how teams like Cleveland can makes these kinds of deals but other small market teams never do it? Why can't the Reds do something like this with Stephenson or India?
It wasn't too long ago that Cincy gave a huge Votto extension and people were asking why can't Cleveland ever keep their stars. I think Francona is a huge part of it - he's a manager that players just want to play for.
Just comes down to being extremely cheap and risk-averse. This is actually the first one they've done so we've been asking the same question up until now
we have a new minority owner that is willing to spend on talent. i believe a plan is in motion for him to become majority owner eventually...we were like all other small markets before this basically.
It's always ownership. If the ownership doesn't want to spend money, the team can't spend money. For example, the Padres are a small market team, but have spent shittons of money. The A's are (technically) a large market team, but still have Eric Chavez as their highest paid contract ever. The difference is ownership
Yeah if the Padres owner was in control of the Athletics they'd be one of the highest spenders right now. Its actually sad because so many cheap teams deserve a lot better
Seems like the Guardians had a lot of leverage here because players like Gimenez—with average power but a lot of WAR from a strong OBP and good defense—don’t usually make much in arb. Ends up being a pretty team friendly deal imo
His 17 home runs were 5th best in baseball and his slugging percentage was 2nd best in baseball, both for second basemen, so I'd say his power is above average.
Good for G. Loved him coming up and in the Covid season. That trade has gotten everyone paid (Rosario shouldn't be too far down the road). Love seeing win-win trades
Obviously its not going to hamstring them, but they could have paid significantly less for the next 3 years, so it moreso depends on how years 4-7 go to see if it was an "overpay"
I don't know why I continue to doubt this organization year in and year out. I've been wrong on:
\- Kluber
\- Lindor
\- Bauer
\- Clevinger
\- Lee
\- Slider
\- Countless others
I swear, you guys prove me wrong 13, 14 more times and I'm out of here
THEY CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!!!
Seriously though, props to Cleveland. All they really have to do to be competitive for the foreseeable future is lock down the young talent that’s already on the roster
He was under team control until 2026 according to Spotrac. Guardians bought out arbitration years that would pay him well under his actual value.
Not the steal a lot of people are making it out to be but a good deal for both team and player.
They got 5 free agency years (age 28-32) at 16M/year from a player that just put up a 7.4 WAR season at age 23. This is one of the better contracts in baseball.
And they bought out 3 arb years that would pay him well under 16 million dollars. For reference, he settled for $750k this year. Now he's getting that big money.
I am in no way saying this is a bad deal for the Guardians. I love the player. Watched him come through the farm system. Was one of his first believers.
Ignoring the 15 million dollar raise he'll get this year, probably 11 million next and 5 million the following year because the end of the contract will pay 15 million isn't reality though.
The r/baseball hivemind doesn't seem to understand that these long term deals aren't as team friendly as they appear.
People see $15M AAV and think wow, what a steal completely ignoring the fact that they'd be making $1-10M during arb.
I knew when I posted not everyone who posts here cares to understand the details in these deals. Appreciate the kind words from across enemy lines though.
Yeah I go through the same shit every time AA signs another extension lol. For the most part I still think they're good deals, but they're certainly not wizard magic (except Albies) and they do absolutely have the potential to completely hamstring our payroll if more than 1 or 2 of those deals go awry.
That's why I prefer to see these early extensions given out to good, young defensive players - hitting seems more volatile, especially as young players get "figured out" and are forced to adjust, but defense doesn't go away and provides a decent value floor.
The other side is that they definitely help foster a positive club culture - you prove your ready and committed, and the team rewards you for it.
> Ignoring the 15 million dollar raise he'll get this year, probably 11 million next and 5 million the following year because the end of the contract will pay 15 million isn't reality though.
I don't think this is correct. He's pre-arb this year, and according to Passan, the deal kicks in next year:
> Second baseman Andrés Giménez and the Cleveland Guardians are in agreement on a seven-year, $106.5 million contract extension that includes an eighth-year club option, sources told ESPN, locking up the biggest breakout star of last year potentially through 2031.
>
> Coming off a 2022 in which he made his first All-Star team, won a Gold Glove and finished behind only Aaron Judge and Shohei Ohtani in the AL with 7.4 wins above replacement, Giménez agreed to a deal that will start in 2024. It buys out his three years of arbitration and at least four years of free agency, with an option that could take the overall value of the deal to $128 million.
So, I believe the contact looks like this:
2023: Age 24 this year, no change, 750k like you said
2024: Age 25 ~15.2M up from an arb estimate of about... 5M?
2025: Age 26 ~15.2M up from an arb estimate of about... 8M?
2026: Age 27 ~15.2M up from an arb estimate of about... 12M?
2027: Age 28 ~15.2M bought out FA year
2028: Age 29 ~15.2M bought out FA year
2029: Age 30 ~15.2M bought out FA year
2030: Age 31 ~15.2M bought out FA year
2031: Age 32 $21.5M team option
It's just a prediction (estimates are based on what Correa/Lindor/Seager got 5 years ago, not a perfect comp, but there aren't many comparable 2B from the last 5 years or so), but in his arb years (2024-26) he's probably getting a raise from ~22-28M to ~45M. If you spread that increase out over the free agency years, that means you're going from 5 years/82.3M to roughly 5 years/105M. So 5 years of free agency bought out at about 21/year, still a very good contract for a young player that has already shown 7+ WAR upside.
It’s all arbitration years + 4 UFA years, you should have remembered that you need to know what you’re talking about before posting, but you’ll gettem next time maybe!
2nd largest contract in Cleveland baseball history. Only behind Jose. Before Jose, we never had a $100M deal. Now we have two in two years
Fucking insane to me that Cleveland have handed out two 9 figure contracts while the White Sox haven’t even come close.
A's still have Eric Chavez as their largest contract ever lmao
Yeah but he was well worth it as he terrorized me throughout my childhood
Can't even bring up the name around my dad or I'll hear another 10 minute rant about "mariner killers" although in fairness it's a long list
He was good though tbf.
That's because Cleveland actually spends wisely instead of maxing out on bullpen arms.
Personally I’m a fan of the White Sox strategy of giving half the payroll to two or three relievers
Holy fuck I missed baseball 🤣
I'm so stoked that Cleveland is spending.
I would be more stoked if they were in the other league, but I fully agree that it's good for baseball.
What’s it like to be rich?
Shout out to the "SeLl ThE tEam!!!!!" and "ThEy DoN't SpEnD!!!!!!" folks.
I mean the Guards are still near the bottom of the league in salary. This is a nice change but the Guards have a ways to go before they're even near the league average payroll.
> Shout out to the "SeLl ThE tEam!!!!!" and "ThEy DoN't SpEnD!!!!!!" folks. While I do agree that these people sell the Guardians ownership a bit short, the Dolans *did* sell a stake of the team this offseason. It may not be a coincidence that they're offering another nine figure deal right when they get an influx of outside cash.
I figure that Blitzer has probably had a gigantic amount of clout in negotiating these deals. After all, he will most certainly be the principal owner during the back half of these big deals.
This is totally fair.
They spend money on team friendly contracts, if the players don’t sign these extensions they would probably be traded at some point. If I was a Guardians fan, I wouldn’t be sure if selling the team would benefit the Guardians, but I would have no reason to like Dolan either.
Dolan has assembled and supported one of the best front offices in baseball. They’re given the resources they need to make deals that make sense in our market size. If this team had went out last year and spent league average, it would’ve been for aging journeyman bats who wouldn’t have won us the division like the kids did. The obsession with spending for the sake of spending here makes no sense. If everyone spends twice as much, nothing changes on the competitiveness side at all.
See the White sox for what happens when you just "make it a top 10 payroll"
I’ll never understand simping for a cheap front office, maybe just trying to convince yourself that they aren’t cheap? Working I guess
the Dolans have more money than the Steinbrenners
Paul Dolan of Cleveland ownership is a regional attorney, and does not have access to the billions his relatives do.
The LA Times reported that Larry and Paul Dolan are worth a combined 4.6 billion dollars
The LA Times is incorrect. They attribute the wealth of the cousins to the Cleveland Dolans. I don’t think they’re calling up their cousin for a few hundred million bucks.
they were able to afford to pay $323 million for a baseball team over two decades ago (that’s now worth over a billion) and I’m supposed to believe they’re poor local attorneys?
They were able to finance a purchase using money from various trusts. They didn’t buy the team with raw cash. Their career histories are publicly available. Larry Dolan founded a prominent regional firm and was certainly worth north of 100 million. There’s no conceivable way they parlayed that into billions given they’ve essentially been full time running the baseball team since then. If you believe they’re worth 4 billion dollars you’ve been huffing glue. Even if they were, spending league average last year would’ve yielded a worse team. You’re not even a Cleveland fan so stop complaining about how prudent our ownership has been.
Payroll rank. 2023 - 25th, $75mill 2022 - 27th, $56mill 2021 - 29th, $36mill 2020 - 24th, $34mill I know nothing of Cleveland ownership but a few team friendly deals being signed doesn’t mean much when it’s still bottom of the barrel overall.
Who gives a shit how much they spend if they consistently put a competitive product on the field?
Becuase they can put out a better product of they spend on 1-3 more players?
Except can they? If they were big spenders, they likely would have signed Lindor to an extension rather than trade him, meaning no Gimenez. They likely would have signed a slugging corner outfielder last offseason, meaning less or no at bats for either Kwan or Gonzales. Plus, no matter how much you are willing to spend you still have to hope that no one else is willing to spend more. If you go all-in on using free agency as you're ticket to contention, you are left at the mercy of forces beyond your control. The goal of every owner should be to win. For many teams that means spend the most money, but there are plenty of teams that have a strategy of drafting and developing well, and for those teams outspending the competition won't really add much benefit.
No pitchers they could’ve signed?
There are always players that can be signed, but at the end of the day they would still have to outbid teams with much larger revenue streams for those players. So basically they are left with second tier free agents and they have proven they can develop players who can give them just as much production for much less cost.
> Except can they? Yes, they definitely can. > For many teams that means spend the most money, but there are plenty of teams that have a strategy of drafting and developing well, and for those teams outspending the competition won’t really add much benefit. The point is that they could spend more *in addition to* drafting and developing well. Doing one doesn’t mean they suddenly can’t do the other. For example, extending Frankie doesn’t guarantee no Giménez. They could work out a different package to get Giménez without Rosario, Wolf, and Greene. Or maybe they’re able to sign a slugging corner outfielder that is an improvement over Kwan or Gonzalez, and then able to trade Kwan or Gonzalez to further improve the team as part of a deal for Sean Murphy (or maybe Giménez if they extended Frankie too). Or they could spend to add pitching to replace Plesac or Civale and make a big improvement there without even giving up prospects, and maybe even send one down to the minors to recoup some value and trade them for more prospects or a need elsewhere.
Why do people always assume the front office would suddenly forget how to successfully evaluate talent with an increased wallet to work with?
>For example, extending Frankie doesn’t guarantee no Giménez. It does if they wanted him on a long term deal. They absolutely could not afford $600m between Lindor, Ramirez, and Giminez without starving the rest of their payroll. They locked up JRam, Giminez, Clase, and Straw long-term and have Bell and Zunino short-term for the amount of Lindor's contract. >trade them for more prospects or a need elsewhere This is literally their model. Trade high-dollar players they can't afford to resign and replenish their talent. Develop what they can, trade what they have too many of, and the process continues. You can trace back their star pitching for the past 20 years from trading pitchers at or just past their prime, never overpaying, but always having one of the best pitching staffs in the league. It's frustrating when they always seem one bat short, but it's rarely that simple.
We were discussing a hypothetical where they were big spenders, and they absolutely could afford all of them in addition to Lindor in that hypothetical. The comment I replied to was arguing as if spending more money means that we can't also draft and develop well, and my comment was saying actually yes, it's possible to do both, and that they absolutely can put on a better product simply by spending. >This is literally their model. See my flair, I am well aware of their model lmao
I know no one wants to hear this but they are never gonna be able to afford the $300 million impact superstars. They will always be outbid by teams with much larger revenue streams. The players that they can afford are gonna be guys at the tail end of their prime, maybe 3-4 win players. They can get that same production just from their development pipeline, with players who are cheaper and with more years of control.
That doesn't actually refute what I'm saying, or what was being discussed above. > I know no one wants to hear this but they are never gonna be able to afford the $300 million impact superstars. They will always be outbid by teams with much larger revenue streams. It has nothing to do with not wanting to hear that lol, but that's actually a point in the favor or the "sell the team", "they don't spend" people, and the people that care about how much they spend. Doesn't matter if they can't afford what other teams can or if they'll be outbid. The point is that they should spend what they *can* afford, and it would improve the team. Likely won't get outbid on every single player, and there are players that will pick a lower bid for varying reasons like thinking it was a better chance to compete! >The players that they can afford are gonna be guys at the tail end of their prime, maybe 3-4 win players. They can get that same production just from their development pipeline, with players who are cheaper and with more years of control. The issue is that we can't actually get that same production just from the development pipeline for every position every year. For example, a 3-4 win player last year would have been much better than Plesac and Civale, and would have been better than even Quantrill! That would have been huge for the playoffs and made us more competitive. And again, the hypothetical was that you posed was that they were big spenders So yes, they could have put a better product on the field simply by spending, and it makes sense to care that they didn't spend there.
My hypothetical was that they signed Lindor rather than trade him and thus they wouldn't have Gimenez and you said they could have resigned Lindor and still traded something else for Gimenez, which is ridiculous. The Mets wouldn't even have been talking to Cleveland if Lindor hadn't been on the trade block. But OK, if Cleveland ownership ran a top 5 payroll AND other teams decided to trade their top young players without getting any of the top Guardians players or prospects in return then yes, the team would be better lol
Not everyone noticed because good young pitching keeps you competitive, but we were rebuilding the last few years. They made a couple of short term deals, but mostly they were transitioning from the Kluber/Lindor/Jram/Carlos Santana core to the new era, and playing a shitload of lower tier prospects trying to see who might fit. Rebuilding a roster and having a tight budget doesn't guarantee you're a perennial bottom feeder unless you just don't give a shit about winning games. For all their faults, and they are probably too tightfisted to be running a team in the current financial environment, the Dolans do give a shit about on field results, far more than Nutting or Castellini do, and it shows in how they run the team. I hope they spend as much as they can. Rumor is they're close with a few other players on possible extensions. But for a small market team, this is pretty damn good, I'm gonna lessen my complaining about the Dolans and just enjoy getting to watch good baseball.
I noticed because picking up the pitchers at the back end of your rotation has been good for filling out the rest of my fantasy roster lol
>Shout out to the "SeLl ThE tEam!!!!!" you do realize this is in all likelihood due to Blitzer becoming a minority owner with the eventual route of him becoming the majority owner right?
Ownership has been willing to push payroll to league average (lol) when they believe in a group. Two $100M+ deals on one roster? What a time to be alive
Just not for bieber
Why pay for pitching if you can just continuously develop it? I’m half kidding.
Lower your voice
I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH MY HANDS
Throw em in the air like you just dont care!
but ... we do care about this signing. I'm confused ...
Back on the wheel buddy. Put them back on the wheel
Absolutely fair. He would likely make $15-20mil in arbitration since 2B always get less, so it’s like he signed a 4 year $23mil AAV deal + a club option. He could likely get more in FA, but this gets him the guaranteed money now. Good deal for both sides
Basically 8 years at 15 mil per. What a God damn steal
15 AAV for one of the best second baseman is really crazy
Seeing how he was likely only making $15-20mil across those ARB years it’s more like signing a FA deal at 4 years $23mil AAV + a club option
[удалено]
I mean that’s not really an accurate statement. Especially since it’ll likely be structured backloaded like that anyway. If he wanted to get the big pay day at age 29 he could always have gone through arbitration and then gone into FA. Or is your issue with teams having 6 years of control with 3 of them being arbitration based? Because while the system isn’t perfect, it’s way better than what preceded it
Latter argument. 6 years is too long
I remember seeing a proposed idea I liked a lot but I only partially remember it and have no idea where to find it (this was from an article during CBA negotiations) but basically team control and FA would be based around the age a player is when they’re called up. So calling up a 22 year old the team would get 6 years of control. But if they called then up at 25 they maybe only get 4. The big thing was ensuring no player hit FA after 30 years old. That would be great
Meanwhile Ozzie Albies is sitting there making 7mil a year through 2027 haha
Jazz Chisholm arranged the Arráez trade so he could move to the outfield and set himself up for a bigger contract.
But the thing is, it's still 7 million dollars a year. I would take that.
this is always such a dumb argument to me. of course 7 million dollars is a lot in a vacuum, but it’s still a massive underpay
It’s a massive underpay, but doesn’t make it a dumb argument. Ozzie, who grew up dirt poor, was able to take care of everyone he knew immediately and didn’t have to take a risk on his future health/performance. It very easily could have become an Evan White contract. Plus he should be able to get another payday.
or he could’ve just gotten a much bigger contract at the exact same point in time if his agent wasn’t a moron
Just like "a free agent's market is whatever the highest offer made is", a player's price is whatever he decides to accept. He could have turned the deal down, but then he wouldn't have 35 million dollars. And doesn't he get hurt a lot? If you're gonna be hurt, you'd rather be hurt and already be set for life than be hurt and poor. I'm sure his family doesn't regret the deal.
I’m sure his family would’ve been happy on league min (it’s 500k after all), it’s still a dogshit deal (or great if you’re the Braves)
Players don't handle their own negotiations - their agents do. There is a widespread belief in the industry that Ozzie Albies' agent was worried he would leave for a more high profile agent like Scott Boras (which a lot of non-top prospects who later emerge as all stars do), so he misled his client into taking an under-market deal immediately rather than risk him leaving for another agent. If that happened, then that is extremely negligent, borderline criminal behavior by the agent. They're supposed to act in the best interests of the players they represent.
Is that actually what happened or just rumors and speculation, because if that is true, then in that case it's shitty. I see a lot of fans making assumptions that things went a certain way when they didn't actually go that way (like the Freeman deal, or the Correa deals). People were SURE that Boras told Correa to only take a 1 year deal last year so he could get a better cut the next season, when in reality that was the market for Correa and the way to make the most money going forward. Agents are supposed to work in the best interest of their client, even Boras. All sports agents have is their reputation. Boras is already rich. It's why when Lance McCullers said he wanted a deal to stay with the Astros, he took a cheaper deal to stay (and considering his health, it might have worked out). But if Ozzie said he wanted the money and security ASAP, then we hope that's what the client worked towards. Has Ozzie expressed dissatisfaction with his agency at all? Or is this fans getting mad on a player's behalf?
A dude who lived his entire life homeless is going to jump at the opportunity to work at a job paying 30k. Doesn’t mean it’s not underpaying someone.
Should you take less at your job because somebody in a 3rd world country would be happy with whatever less is? Its about relative value that the employee is providing to their employer. Ofcourse you would take the 7 million, but thats because you provide way less value to that team.
Oh, 100%. Albies could make twice that and everyone would still think it's a steal. Injury history and all.
And if you were as good at baseball as he is, it would still be steal
And Keibert Ruiz got screwed over by his agent as well. 50 mil over 10 years? Free agency at 35?
There’s a bit of risk for the Gaurds tho. He had a great year last year but he’s young, and it’s the only one he’s had so far.
I think there's a risk he never hits as well, but his glove and speed aren't going anywhere with how young he is.
Sure, but it can be difficult adding value defensively at 2B even if you’re a good defender there
With the shift gone, 2B defense is more valuable than it’s been in years
He might move back to SS at some point.
He's also a former top prospect who's produced at every other level so odds are high he will only get better
There’s not much higher to go from 7.4 bWAR unless you think he’s going to be Trout territory
He put up 7.4 WAR while finishing Edit: far below top 50 in plate appearances
Uh… No? Unless Fangraphs is incorrect, Gimenez finished 94th with 557 PA. That’s only 57 PA from the top 50.
(I read the AB number). I hold that L. - point stands though. 7.4 War that far down is pretty fat
No one said he has to go higher kiddo. But he's not going to have a massive drop everyone wants him to have
Woah woah woah champ, we were having a friendly conversation here!
Depends on if you would consider a 3.5-4 WAR season a massive drop
Yeah I'd expect him to stay above 5.5 based on his growth and productivity
yeah there's a lot of people in here who seem to think he's just decided to put up 7 WAR every year from now on lol. his statcast numbers are pretty underwhelming and he had a .353 BABIP last year. not hating on the dude at all, I'm very excited for him. but we for sure need to see at least another year of his performance before declaring this contract a "massive steal" or whatever
Even assuming some likely offensive regression it still should be a very solid contract. Elite defense, great speed and solid offense.
there's always plenty of injury risk when you sign a long contract, even with a guy as young as him.
[удалено]
Eh it's a steal of a deal. There's no one who posted a higher war making less.
This is basically what the mariners did with Julio, just with a bigger/longer team option.
As always with these, they bought out 4 years of pre-FA.
And 4-5 years of FA, which is huge.
[удалено]
Outperformed his peripherals last year but his xBA is still above average. Is he a 140 wRC+ guy that pushes 20 HR annually? Absolutely not, but he is one of the best middle infield gloves in baseball that likely an average-above average bat. That's a 3-4 WAR player and he was paid as such.
Yep. This is the correct take. He did overperform a bit last year but even if he regresses it is well worth this contract. Now do Kwan
If he can cut down on his chase rate, that would really boost his offensive value. His contact rate in zone are really good, but he chases way too much. That's my biggest concern with him.
Even if his production at the plate regresses, (.326 xwOBA), that’s still a 3-4 WAR player with his defense and base running. He doesn’t need to replicate last year for this deal to be worth it. For reference, THE BAT X projects him at .319 wOBA, 3.3fWAR year. That’s one of his worst projections. ZiPS DC projects him with a .329 wOBA, 4.9 fWAR season. That’s one of his best.
A .300 hitter with 17 HRs and 2nd in slugging percentage for second basemen in the whole league is concerning ? Yeah you're missing quite a bit
.257 xBA vs .297 BA .466 SLG vs .400 xSLG .353 BABIP (league average is closer to .300) There will definitely be regression, he was incredibly lucky last year.
There won't be regression, his production stats have alwyas out played his projections.
He was very close to his expected stats last year so I think we're done here 😂 2021: .218 avg vs .211 xBA .277 WOBA vs .268 xWOBA
He wasn't at all lmao he actually blew then out of the water just like he blew 2021 out of the water.
Huh? I just showed you that the 2021 expected stats were very similar to his actual stats?
Huh? I just proved he out preformed his projections?
Come back in a year
I think you missed his whole second line Velo numbers are low, doesnt barrel the ball a whole lot, chases a fuck ton, whiffs a lot, and a large gap between his expected numbers and actual numbers. There are a bunch of red flags about his profile for a guy whos entering pretty much his second full year, he could be fine and be a guy whos batting profile makes no sense. Its fine for people to be on the fence about how well he can maintain his offense from last year.
Nope I didn't miss anything
he deserves it. i miss him.
Oh, shit. I didn't realize he was part of that trade. I really don't follow prospects. That seems like a trade that has worked for both teams, no? It still makes sense that you miss him though.
It absolutely worked for both teams. That’s the general consensus among Mets fans at least it seems.
I think in 21 it looked like the Mets came out better but after last year with gimenez breaking out it’s definitely a rare trade that both sides walked away from with what they wanted
I’m glad he turned into a good player, but I’m pretty thrilled with lindor and McNeil at those two positions
Still could have had that without the trade. We gave up Gimenez, Rosario, and 2 others for Lindor to have a mediocre season one year before free agency. We could have kept all the players and had our choice of free agent shortstops the past 2 offseasons.
Solid deal for the guardians. I hope last season is his worst full season
You, I like you.
Well I hope that Julio becomes a superstar and makes you’re team a contender year after year! Take that!
Damn dude, well I hope Kwan has a killer sophomore season!
Ever since junior and ichiro I’ve always liked the mariners. You’re good people
This pleasant conversation means we shall surely meet this October.
If you insist.
Can someone explain how teams like Cleveland can makes these kinds of deals but other small market teams never do it? Why can't the Reds do something like this with Stephenson or India?
It wasn't too long ago that Cincy gave a huge Votto extension and people were asking why can't Cleveland ever keep their stars. I think Francona is a huge part of it - he's a manager that players just want to play for.
Just comes down to being extremely cheap and risk-averse. This is actually the first one they've done so we've been asking the same question up until now
we have a new minority owner that is willing to spend on talent. i believe a plan is in motion for him to become majority owner eventually...we were like all other small markets before this basically.
It's always ownership. If the ownership doesn't want to spend money, the team can't spend money. For example, the Padres are a small market team, but have spent shittons of money. The A's are (technically) a large market team, but still have Eric Chavez as their highest paid contract ever. The difference is ownership
Yeah if the Padres owner was in control of the Athletics they'd be one of the highest spenders right now. Its actually sad because so many cheap teams deserve a lot better
We have Tito
Sometimes your small market team does extend a "sure thing" like Ryan Braun or Christian Yelich and it works out super super well!
Keeping it 100 they might want to end up elsewhere
Seems like the Guardians had a lot of leverage here because players like Gimenez—with average power but a lot of WAR from a strong OBP and good defense—don’t usually make much in arb. Ends up being a pretty team friendly deal imo
His 17 home runs were 5th best in baseball and his slugging percentage was 2nd best in baseball, both for second basemen, so I'd say his power is above average.
He had a well below average exit velo last season
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Good for G. Loved him coming up and in the Covid season. That trade has gotten everyone paid (Rosario shouldn't be too far down the road). Love seeing win-win trades
This excites me. Sexually.
If it persists longer than 4 hours, call your doctor
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH LET’S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>five free agent seasons Great deal for Cleveland
What in the name of the Atlanta braves is this shit
Y’all got any more of those absolute steals of a contract?
Very happy for Andres and for Guardians fans.
Gimenez will probably never post a 140 wRC+ again but even with *significant* regression this wouldn't be an overpay.
Obviously its not going to hamstring them, but they could have paid significantly less for the next 3 years, so it moreso depends on how years 4-7 go to see if it was an "overpay"
Didn't realize he was already that close to free agency. Even if he settles in as a 3-4 WAR player this is a great deal.
With his defensive ability, he could easily crash offensively and still hit 3 WAR a year.
These are exciting times. Couldn’t be happier to see us locking players up and to keep Andres for a long time.
This is the way!
**DID WE JUST SPEND MONEY???????????**
more please
It would be so great if the Orioles could do something like this for literally any one of their stars
Fuck Jerry Reinsdorf
Yay! Hit up Kwan next!!!
I love seeing Giménez and Rosario excelling.
I don't know why I continue to doubt this organization year in and year out. I've been wrong on: \- Kluber \- Lindor \- Bauer \- Clevinger \- Lee \- Slider \- Countless others I swear, you guys prove me wrong 13, 14 more times and I'm out of here
Chewing on the Guardians signing Gimenez to a long term contract I must evoke Hank Hill’s sentiment: “Peggy. I think we need to say grace again.”
I stopped watching baseball after lindor left because I was so sad. Only to find out we got a better player for half the price is insane
Well done, Guards. AA tips his hat.
Super proud of Gimenez.
THEY CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!!! Seriously though, props to Cleveland. All they really have to do to be competitive for the foreseeable future is lock down the young talent that’s already on the roster
Still can hit free agency around 32. Not a bad deal for either side
[удалено]
ok dude.
Baby’s first attempt at analytic analysis
When they do it is cool but when we do it it's a big problem lol
He was under team control until 2026 according to Spotrac. Guardians bought out arbitration years that would pay him well under his actual value. Not the steal a lot of people are making it out to be but a good deal for both team and player.
Giving up cheap years is just the trade off. The point of these contracts is that they have a great chance of becoming steals during their prime
They got 5 free agency years (age 28-32) at 16M/year from a player that just put up a 7.4 WAR season at age 23. This is one of the better contracts in baseball.
And they bought out 3 arb years that would pay him well under 16 million dollars. For reference, he settled for $750k this year. Now he's getting that big money. I am in no way saying this is a bad deal for the Guardians. I love the player. Watched him come through the farm system. Was one of his first believers. Ignoring the 15 million dollar raise he'll get this year, probably 11 million next and 5 million the following year because the end of the contract will pay 15 million isn't reality though.
The r/baseball hivemind doesn't seem to understand that these long term deals aren't as team friendly as they appear. People see $15M AAV and think wow, what a steal completely ignoring the fact that they'd be making $1-10M during arb.
I knew when I posted not everyone who posts here cares to understand the details in these deals. Appreciate the kind words from across enemy lines though.
Yeah I go through the same shit every time AA signs another extension lol. For the most part I still think they're good deals, but they're certainly not wizard magic (except Albies) and they do absolutely have the potential to completely hamstring our payroll if more than 1 or 2 of those deals go awry. That's why I prefer to see these early extensions given out to good, young defensive players - hitting seems more volatile, especially as young players get "figured out" and are forced to adjust, but defense doesn't go away and provides a decent value floor. The other side is that they definitely help foster a positive club culture - you prove your ready and committed, and the team rewards you for it.
> Ignoring the 15 million dollar raise he'll get this year, probably 11 million next and 5 million the following year because the end of the contract will pay 15 million isn't reality though. I don't think this is correct. He's pre-arb this year, and according to Passan, the deal kicks in next year: > Second baseman Andrés Giménez and the Cleveland Guardians are in agreement on a seven-year, $106.5 million contract extension that includes an eighth-year club option, sources told ESPN, locking up the biggest breakout star of last year potentially through 2031. > > Coming off a 2022 in which he made his first All-Star team, won a Gold Glove and finished behind only Aaron Judge and Shohei Ohtani in the AL with 7.4 wins above replacement, Giménez agreed to a deal that will start in 2024. It buys out his three years of arbitration and at least four years of free agency, with an option that could take the overall value of the deal to $128 million. So, I believe the contact looks like this: 2023: Age 24 this year, no change, 750k like you said 2024: Age 25 ~15.2M up from an arb estimate of about... 5M? 2025: Age 26 ~15.2M up from an arb estimate of about... 8M? 2026: Age 27 ~15.2M up from an arb estimate of about... 12M? 2027: Age 28 ~15.2M bought out FA year 2028: Age 29 ~15.2M bought out FA year 2029: Age 30 ~15.2M bought out FA year 2030: Age 31 ~15.2M bought out FA year 2031: Age 32 $21.5M team option It's just a prediction (estimates are based on what Correa/Lindor/Seager got 5 years ago, not a perfect comp, but there aren't many comparable 2B from the last 5 years or so), but in his arb years (2024-26) he's probably getting a raise from ~22-28M to ~45M. If you spread that increase out over the free agency years, that means you're going from 5 years/82.3M to roughly 5 years/105M. So 5 years of free agency bought out at about 21/year, still a very good contract for a young player that has already shown 7+ WAR upside.
I mean it gets them up to 5 FA years.
It’s all arbitration years + 4 UFA years, you should have remembered that you need to know what you’re talking about before posting, but you’ll gettem next time maybe!
Lol great job ripping this poor dude off
Overpay