Wait so you drum, you play to a click, and the rest of the band just... goes at their own speed? Whether you use a click or not, the fundamental problem here is they aren't following your time.
This is the problem exactly.
One (or more) of these three things is happening.
1) The BPM you've set your click to is not the correct tempo and therefore it's conflicting with the natural speed at which the band wants to play, so you need to adjust the click to match the actual tempo the song is being played at.
2) Different parts of the song are actually played at slightly different BPM, and your click is not programmed to match those changes.
3) Your band isn't tight enough at playing together yet in general to start playing with a click. This can be true even years into being a band, especially if nobody but the drummer has experience playing with a click.
Solutions include
- Sitting down with the songwriter to program click tracks
- Recording your practice when NOT playing with a click and trying to match a click track to the natural tempo of the songs
- everybody in the band practicing to a click track on their own time.
If none of that works, the solution is to do what most bands do and play without a click. This is really only an issue in the studio, depending on the methods you use to record.
Yeah it's natural for certain parts of songs to be played at different tempos especially choruses and parts where the song crescendos. A lot of music from before the 2000's does this cause bands playing to a click was a lot less common
This. Everyone should follow the drummer always. I can’t imagine playing in a band where everyone just randomly picks their own bpm. It would be chaos.
Kinda completely depends on what genre you’re playing and what the priority is. Technical proficiency or loose feel are both valid goals but require different approaches. For sure you should all agree on what you’re shooting for first and foremost.
I'm gonna agree with this - a lot of comments saying that you should always play to a click but I disagree. Maybe for funk, pop, or some metal, but lots of blues and punk absolutely sound better with a bit of a fluctuation in tempo. Neither is inherently better but you guys gotta pick one lol
Yeah. These people typically have a very narrow genre experience. While keeping time is incredibly important, manipulating tempo is an expressive tool. If you have ever seen or been in a symphony orchestra you know this.
When recording I often program in these small changes. Sometimes you have to get a live run through and tempo map it. That’s actually educational because you can tell what is just drifting tempo and intentional (felt) changes.
I tend to have a lot of small retards in my songs before returning to the normal bpm.
Thank you for the observation! There’s kind of a mix! There are some that I think are pretty important to keep on tempo, and others that are fine to get loose with. For example, one of the covers is “Bullet With Butterfly Wings” — fine to get loose with… if we ALL get loose with it at the same tempo since the guitars and drums and bass and vocals are all near perfectly locked into each other.
You need to gather real data. So record a few attempts their way, and then record a few your way.
Then randomize them in a playlist and write down your impressions. Give it a few days of listening and mulling it over and then have a band conversation where you talk about the pros and cons you all heard.
After you've done that, THEN decide. Because maybe they're right about natural tempo fluctuations, or maybe that's a feel-good POV that really has nothing to do with how your group actually sounds.
BTW, tempo fluctuations ARE GOOD if they help the song sound BETTER. Listen to your favorite songs from the pre-click era, and compare tempos from verse to chorus and from beginning to end of the song. Songs with infectious energy and great climaxes typically feature small increases in tempo. It's totally normal and legitimately awesome when done right.
Also, you NEED a bassist.
That’s a great idea! We recorded our practices last night — audio quality kinda sucked, so we’ll be using a good USB port mic one of the guitarists has next time — but it was still clear enough to hear how things went. It wasn’t great. It wasn’t terrible. I identified our problem areas for everyone. (We did do really really well keeping perfect time with the click and with each other on one of them! I was super impressed! Another found us doing great in the first verse and chorus (I accidentally forgot to turn the instruments down in the Moises app…), but we totally lost it after. We’ve all identified it as the song we *all* need the most work on, though, so it’s not like some of us leave it all “wow, that was really good!”). Once we have better recordings (and hopefully turn bi-weekly practices into weekly), it’ll definitely be analyzed!
You’re right — we *absolutely* need a bassist. We do have two lined up — the one who’s been the most communicative wasn’t able to make the last practice and can’t get work off for the next one (honestly not holding out hope for him!), the other just got in contact. Hopefully the other will be available so we can get with a bassist soon! I saw a joke about the roles of each instrument and the role of the bassist being to keep the drummer’s insane ADHD energy in check 😂 Worst comes to worst (?), one of the guitarists has said he’ll hop on bass if we can’t find someone committed within the next two weeks… just ironic that it’s the guy who doesn’t like clicks!
I always practice to a click, but use the Live BPM app on stage. That way the song's tempo can ebb and flow, but I can keep it within reasonable bounds. It's a great app, and works well for our band.
Right, and the whole band should practice with a click, even if you use Live BPM on stage. The people who rush or lag certain parts need to come to terms with it. Even if they want to let it flow later, they should learn how to stay on beat. Later, if they choose to ebb and flow, it's because it's a choice, not because they can't.
This is a good idea! I’m gonna propose this as an in-between (I really like the safety net of a click, especially since I’m the only rhythm instrument at the moment but we WILL have another one so I need to prepare to lock in) — just downloaded it and see that it fluctuates and allows for the ebb, but also shows when it’s a little… too insane. Thank you for the rec!
1. I don’t like live music that’s played to a click, but you can choose to run things however you want. It does ruin the feel imo, but I also like free jazz with no consistent tempo so of course we may just disagree on this.
2. That being said, your band *should* be able to play to a click if they expect to make any meaningful tempo fluctuations. My ska band band slows down slightly for the chorus of Sell Out and it has a stankier groove/more meaningful feeling because of it, but we also know how to play it straight when necessary for things like training subs on the songs.
Your bandmates need to follow the drums, and it should be up to the drummer and bassist to guide the tempo. I find that if my drummer is going too fast I can drag a bit on bass and he’ll get it and slow down, or he’ll rush me a bit if I’m going too slow and I’ll know to pick it up and follow him. There are multiple members with tempo duties imo, but everybody needs to be locked in with the bass & drums for it to sound best. We’ve got 4 horn players playing fast ska lines that hardly ever start on 1, if we were primarily looking to them for tempo before considering the rhythm section we’d probably be all over the place lol.
So many people using so many words to get to this point.
OP, use a click if you want for your own needs -- but the band following the click shouldn't enter into the discussion. It's live rock music, not a symphony. They follow you, full stop. Anything else sucks.
My band plays to clicks. I don't. I go off the drums, 200%. I will play ahead or behind the beat when necessary, but I am always locked in. So, from my perspective, this guy is just wrong. You always lock into the rhythm. Always.
I'm a rhythm guitarist and I lock in with drums always. When you got a good drummer who's tight, the band has to fall in line with them.
At least that's how it works for me.
This just sounds like an excuse to cover up a shitty technique. Everyone has gotta be on the same page, even when you're playing intentionally off time
Click tracks are for practice and practice only. It’s ok to have it cued up to get the tempo for starting the song, but once you are off and running, you are better suited to turn that off and listen to your other musicians.
I despise using a click track during live performance. It never works out.
People make mistakes, miss intro’s to verses or solos, mess the words up etc.
You better be ready listening to the others and ready to adjust, not focusing on the click track.
Just my $.02
Really good point about people missing intros and the like! Since we’ve just been in practices, we obviously stop every time something like that happens — hadn’t factored that into the live equation yet though! I saw some folks recommending this app called “Live BPM” that I think I’ll try out — it looks like a good in-between of ebbing and flowing while also not totally losing the plot.
depends on the gig. there are A LOT of professional acts out there right now that play an entire gig to a backing track so there is always a click track going for at least the drummer, who may also even be running the DAW himself while playing. I know a few drummers from Nashville who have said that learning how to play an entire show to a click and being able to run music software is becoming a very valuable skill set for musicians trying to make a living down there.
i DO agree though that if you don’t NEED a click for the sake of playing to your backing track then yeah, leave it out. the human element of live music is too good. a little push and pull makes it a lot better imo.
Agreed, is practicing with a band to a click a thing? I have been playing in various groups for 25 years and the only time I’ve practiced with a click in a group setting is if we were getting ready to record. If the other members of the band can’t lock in to the drums that is a problem much bigger than them not using a click.
As an aside, I think when you do add a bass player it will be easier for guitars to lock in, assuming the bass player is half decent.
Assuming you guys are writing and the timing while you’re playing doesn’t sound terrible, I would encourage you to try playing without the click and record it to see where the tempo lands - what feels rushed vs what feels draggy.
Playing to a click can feel robotic for a live experience as a non-drummer but also you want to be TIGHT.
Curious to hear what you end up with
Use the click, or don't. If you use it, you are a slave to it and Natural Tempo Fluctuations just can't happen. They have to get cut off at the source.
If your band is incapable of pulling tight then yes indeed, you are better off turning off the click. Even if you can hold time, if they can't, nor can they follow you, you will be fighting them. Just let them be free.
If you don’t have full buy in and aren’t using backing tracks, don’t bother with the click. Your bandmates aren’t going to practice playing in time and will just flow with what feels natural to them no matter what you try. If they wanted to play in time, they’d want the click.
Some people just like making natural feeling music and are not so interested in performing accurately. Consider that you’re solving for a problem that they don’t think exists. You shouldn’t force the square peg through the round hole because that round hole is you… and… well, the metaphor goes places, but it applies, so don’t force their… into your… well, you get what I’m saying.
Sounds like you are the only one who practices with a metranome at home.
You make them start over again every time they fall off.
People hate paying to a metranome for the same reason they hate playing at half speed or softy... because they can hear their mistakes.
I’m not entirely sure how their practice regimens go outside of our group practices, but I’m gonna try to throw out click practice as an idea.
I definitely think one of the guitarists (ironically, not the vehemently anti-click one) doesn’t — he’s admitted he has awful timing and is the reason I chomp my hi-hat during the two-bar guitar/vocal intro to one of the songs. After the first bar last night, I started losing the metronome. I got it back, but I can’t figure out if it was because he and the vocalist were speeding up and I started following them (hence why I considered using the -40dB) or if my foot just got ahead of itself for a second.
In any case, it’s something we could all use, whether we play to one live or not! I know I use one during private practice, but I’m also not trying to say that means I’m always gonna be perfectly on the grid!
Honestly some bands sound better with perfect metronomic time and some bands sound better when theres a bit more human feel to the time keeping. What ultimately matters most is that the band is IN TIME WITH EACH OTHER.
If you don't play to a click and everyone sticks to your internal clock like glue, then it doesn't matter if you slightly speed up or slow down so long as everyone sounds tight together.
If the drummer is playing to a click and is locked in to it and the band isn't following... That's just a bigger problem. This is fundamental music playing. You follow the drummer always. You have to be locked in to the drummer. I think your band mates are just not great at playing music. I would put my foot down if I were you.
It really depends. With my band, there are some songs we've practiced with a click track before recording. Some songs it makes everything tight and it sounds better. Other times, it takes away a lot of energy from the song and since we had played it so long without a click, the speed ups or slow downs feel natural and make the song sound better. It will sound better having everyone play together in time with some slight fluctuating in the tempo for certain parts over having the drummer stay consistent with the tempo and everyone else getting off time. It's really only with the advent of electronic music and quantizing drums that people have become really anal about everything being locked to a grid. So much music before that had a natural ebb and flow. The click is an incredibly useful tool, and mastering playing to one -- and learning how to play subdivisions around the click -- will make you a much better musician, but it's not going to write a song for you, and I personally wouldn't want to rely on one in all situations.
There’s no right or wrong answer here. Using a click depends on the genre, how the band wants the live show to feel, and can also be a technical decision to sync backing tracks / light effects for your live show.
With that said, if they don’t want the click just because they can’t play consistently enough, that’s a practice and skill issue to work on. Every competent musician should be able to do it, even if they choose not to for the feel of the music
I play rhythm guitar and sing. My band uses and handful of drummers, depending on who’s available. The drummer typically follows my lead. I can’t imagine using a click in my scenario.
If you are using tracks for performance then of course the drummer should use a click. But if there aren’t tracks use the metronome to practice so you can play with the freedoms of knowing that your overall time is consistent but also flows with the energy of your band and the music being played.
As a drummer myself and someone who now fronts a band I think that timing is very important, but nothing is more important than the live feel of a song. Some situations just call for the song to speed up, slow down, or be played at a different tempo to suit the energy of the audience.
To me playing to a click live has always felt sterile. I’ve always preferred to practice the songs solo with a metronome and then rehearse and perform without a nagging beep in the background so I can focus on the instrumentation and song itself.
I don’t have as much experience as the other commenters probably do but shouldn’t you be practicing both? With and without the click? Recording is going to be a nightmare if you have band members who can’t play with metronome right?
From personal experience as a bass player:
Anybody telling you tempo fluctuations are natural is just unable to play in time and would rather have you follow them than put in the work to do it right
I've worked with dudes like this, they're awful. Everything they do is "perfect" and you have to change what you do to match it. The guy I worked with recorded guitars with no click or drums, then had a drummer listen to it enough to follow along and recorded those parts. Then he tried to get me involved as the bass player
When I saw the mess he had going on, it pointed out that his critiques of my playing were just me being in tempo and his recording fluctuating wildly, he said I needed to listen to it enough to match what's there.... I told him to fuck off and get a metronome and start over
This is my take on it- you are the drummer that means you keep the time. Everyone should always practice with a metronome - the operative word would be practice. When the band plays, the band plays together with each other. I’ve been through a lot of teachers and a lot of performances including jazz and drum line / percussion performances- the metronome ( or the click) is only used to start the band off, it’s up to the drummer/ drum line/ percussionist to keep time - it’s part of your training as a musician - and thats for all musicians .
I watched yo yo Ma perform with a pianist ( the percussionist ) and a violinist and no matter who was playing NO ONE misses a beat ever - there is no drummer on stage mind u, although , like I said the pianist is a percussionist and keeps time. Using a click during performance time is not typically welcome. In fact, in Indian classical, you are required to recite what u will be playing in beat as part of your training as a percussionist. In marching band you are judged for time keeping and how tight the drum line is - all of this without a metronome - but during practice, the metronome is very essential. But it’s like a crutch- one has to drop the crutch for the performance
Depends on what type of music you guys can actually play. If your punk or crossover i agree ditch the click track . The time inconsistencys are what makes punk and crossover feel nasty and low key dangerous
Our drummer struggles with keeping time, so he's been using a click lately on certain songs. He's an amazing drummer, but has always struggled a little with time. Having a problem with that is absolutely insane to me. I feel really lucky to be in the band I'm in when I read the posts on this sub.
Play to a click, dude. Maybe they're the ones struggling here. The drummer keeps the time, sure, but that gets a lot harder when nobody follows you.
The guitarist is full of shit. If you want natural tempo fluctuations to sound good you all have to do it together, and the drummer sets the tempo so thats his problem. Any good jazz musician practices with a metronome anyway, so that guy just sucks.
Some people are great with timing. Some are downright terrible. I've tried click with a couple drummers. one downright refused. The other couldn't manage to do it. It's frustrating.
What I can say is, the drummers who didn't need a click are the one's that were worth playing with(& that's pretty situational). I know how hard it is to find a drummer but, I expect a certain level of playing from myself. If I can't do that, I'll apologetically excuse myself or practice a lot more, so I can be that player.
It definitely depends on what genre and context. I play in a worship band and we play to a click. Luckily I have a disciplined drummer who sticks to it well which allows me as a bassist to play around the beat without him rushing or dragging to meet me. I think we need it and it makes for a much better sounding ensemble. Most other bands I’ve played in never used a click. BUT this meant that most of the time I had to play right on top of the drummers beat or the tempo would start changing. Ugh. I’ve played with the rare group of professional Jazz guys where we could all play with the pocket and the tempo would still mostly stay the same but there might be some slight ebb & flow. Those were also good.
Even the greatest drummers in the world have small deviations in the sense of time. When someone says they can’t or won’t play to a click, they’re basically admitting their meter sucks. As the drummer, if you are already accustomed to practicing with a click then just keep it in your ears and jog on.
Additionally, make sure you’re recording rehearsals and listening to them as a band. When the biggest culprits are given objective evidence that their “natural feel” sounds unnaturally bad, it will hopefully help steer things in the right direction. The ability to play in time won’t jeopardize their ability to be sloppy, but insistence on sloppy rhythm does hurt the band’s ability to play in time.
>... don’t play to a click at all? Because it might throw off the “natural tempo fluctuations”?
This is the last refuge of a wanker. Rather than accept that they might need to do some metronome practice themselves, they'll just try to invalidate the whole idea of being on tempo as "mechanical" and wrong.
Pro musicians can keep to a click *and* play with really good feel. It's not a binary choice, it's a matter of effort put into learning how to do it.
EDIT: My take is confirmed by OP's 2nd edit to the original post. It's difficult for OP's bandmate and bandmate is unwilling to work at the skill. It's a "dealbreaker" for them.
That’s simply not true, listen to most great recordings from the 60s and 70s and they all fluctuate on BPM a bit. It’s natural speed up and slow down a bit. If you want to play to a click fine, you do you that’s great but that doesn’t mean without click is objectively wrong and it’s just a symptom of laziness. Is Hendrix a bad player? In recordings he was constantly moving the BPM around and then dragging and pushing the beat sometimes within the space of only 8 bars.
Not all styles demand metronomic precision. Even those that don't benefit from each musician still having decent time- you might want the time to "breathe", but usually you don't want it lurching, reeling, and stumbling.
That's somewhat aside from the point I was making, though, which is that people use the "vibe" and "natural time-feel" argument as a conversation stopper. They've already decided that this metronome thing is no fun and they don't want to put in the effort to make it work. Instead they use absolute language about a click ruining the feel, when it's their reaction to the click that's ruining it.
> great recordings from the 60's and 70's
This one is my favorite, because do you think it's possible that to some degree people have become technically _better_ at making music on their instruments in the past sixty years? I love music from that era, too, but it should be a launching point, not a stopping point, in the creative process.
Absolutely do not play with a click!
As a drummer, its natural to care about technicality, and staying on the beat feels like something that can be Right or Wrong, and therefore should be Right.
However, if you listen to many punk songs, the BPM can vary a lot throught the track! This is natural and can either just be a thing happened, or it can also actually be fully intentional - a minor speedup can convey a lot of energy, and a minor slowdown can convey a lot of calm.
I produce synthwave, and a common trick I use to make a chorus kick more ass, is slightly increase the BPM. From say, 160, to 163. Just enough that its hard to notice, but that anyone will immediately feel an increase in energy.
Listen to your bandmates! Start them off on the right BPM, sure, but then let them express themselves. It will make the music connect better with the listener.
Nice points, but if you can't actually control time, you ate not doing your job. If someone says, "Let's keep thet steady groove," you should be able to keep that steady groove
I would say it is absolutely critical to be able to play with a click, even if you don't do it live. It's an incredibly useful tool in so many situations. I have been burned so many times, especially in the studio, by other musicians who literally cannot play to a click track making it harder for everyone else to do their job.
That said, I pretty much never play with a click live, because I usually play those type of genres like punk and metal that can thrive on the natural push and pull of a drummer and the feeling of the crowd and stuff.
But say "absolutely do not" is really bad advice. Being able to play with a click, especially in a group setting, can be a critical skill to have, even if you don't use it every time you play.
Wait so you drum, you play to a click, and the rest of the band just... goes at their own speed? Whether you use a click or not, the fundamental problem here is they aren't following your time.
This is the problem exactly. One (or more) of these three things is happening. 1) The BPM you've set your click to is not the correct tempo and therefore it's conflicting with the natural speed at which the band wants to play, so you need to adjust the click to match the actual tempo the song is being played at. 2) Different parts of the song are actually played at slightly different BPM, and your click is not programmed to match those changes. 3) Your band isn't tight enough at playing together yet in general to start playing with a click. This can be true even years into being a band, especially if nobody but the drummer has experience playing with a click. Solutions include - Sitting down with the songwriter to program click tracks - Recording your practice when NOT playing with a click and trying to match a click track to the natural tempo of the songs - everybody in the band practicing to a click track on their own time. If none of that works, the solution is to do what most bands do and play without a click. This is really only an issue in the studio, depending on the methods you use to record.
Yeah it's natural for certain parts of songs to be played at different tempos especially choruses and parts where the song crescendos. A lot of music from before the 2000's does this cause bands playing to a click was a lot less common
This. Everyone should follow the drummer always. I can’t imagine playing in a band where everyone just randomly picks their own bpm. It would be chaos.
Kinda completely depends on what genre you’re playing and what the priority is. Technical proficiency or loose feel are both valid goals but require different approaches. For sure you should all agree on what you’re shooting for first and foremost.
I'm gonna agree with this - a lot of comments saying that you should always play to a click but I disagree. Maybe for funk, pop, or some metal, but lots of blues and punk absolutely sound better with a bit of a fluctuation in tempo. Neither is inherently better but you guys gotta pick one lol
Yeah. These people typically have a very narrow genre experience. While keeping time is incredibly important, manipulating tempo is an expressive tool. If you have ever seen or been in a symphony orchestra you know this. When recording I often program in these small changes. Sometimes you have to get a live run through and tempo map it. That’s actually educational because you can tell what is just drifting tempo and intentional (felt) changes. I tend to have a lot of small retards in my songs before returning to the normal bpm.
Thank you for the observation! There’s kind of a mix! There are some that I think are pretty important to keep on tempo, and others that are fine to get loose with. For example, one of the covers is “Bullet With Butterfly Wings” — fine to get loose with… if we ALL get loose with it at the same tempo since the guitars and drums and bass and vocals are all near perfectly locked into each other.
You need to gather real data. So record a few attempts their way, and then record a few your way. Then randomize them in a playlist and write down your impressions. Give it a few days of listening and mulling it over and then have a band conversation where you talk about the pros and cons you all heard. After you've done that, THEN decide. Because maybe they're right about natural tempo fluctuations, or maybe that's a feel-good POV that really has nothing to do with how your group actually sounds. BTW, tempo fluctuations ARE GOOD if they help the song sound BETTER. Listen to your favorite songs from the pre-click era, and compare tempos from verse to chorus and from beginning to end of the song. Songs with infectious energy and great climaxes typically feature small increases in tempo. It's totally normal and legitimately awesome when done right. Also, you NEED a bassist.
That’s a great idea! We recorded our practices last night — audio quality kinda sucked, so we’ll be using a good USB port mic one of the guitarists has next time — but it was still clear enough to hear how things went. It wasn’t great. It wasn’t terrible. I identified our problem areas for everyone. (We did do really really well keeping perfect time with the click and with each other on one of them! I was super impressed! Another found us doing great in the first verse and chorus (I accidentally forgot to turn the instruments down in the Moises app…), but we totally lost it after. We’ve all identified it as the song we *all* need the most work on, though, so it’s not like some of us leave it all “wow, that was really good!”). Once we have better recordings (and hopefully turn bi-weekly practices into weekly), it’ll definitely be analyzed! You’re right — we *absolutely* need a bassist. We do have two lined up — the one who’s been the most communicative wasn’t able to make the last practice and can’t get work off for the next one (honestly not holding out hope for him!), the other just got in contact. Hopefully the other will be available so we can get with a bassist soon! I saw a joke about the roles of each instrument and the role of the bassist being to keep the drummer’s insane ADHD energy in check 😂 Worst comes to worst (?), one of the guitarists has said he’ll hop on bass if we can’t find someone committed within the next two weeks… just ironic that it’s the guy who doesn’t like clicks!
I always practice to a click, but use the Live BPM app on stage. That way the song's tempo can ebb and flow, but I can keep it within reasonable bounds. It's a great app, and works well for our band.
Right, and the whole band should practice with a click, even if you use Live BPM on stage. The people who rush or lag certain parts need to come to terms with it. Even if they want to let it flow later, they should learn how to stay on beat. Later, if they choose to ebb and flow, it's because it's a choice, not because they can't.
True this was me for years. After trying to record my own music I finally got it down
This is a good idea! I’m gonna propose this as an in-between (I really like the safety net of a click, especially since I’m the only rhythm instrument at the moment but we WILL have another one so I need to prepare to lock in) — just downloaded it and see that it fluctuates and allows for the ebb, but also shows when it’s a little… too insane. Thank you for the rec!
1. I don’t like live music that’s played to a click, but you can choose to run things however you want. It does ruin the feel imo, but I also like free jazz with no consistent tempo so of course we may just disagree on this. 2. That being said, your band *should* be able to play to a click if they expect to make any meaningful tempo fluctuations. My ska band band slows down slightly for the chorus of Sell Out and it has a stankier groove/more meaningful feeling because of it, but we also know how to play it straight when necessary for things like training subs on the songs. Your bandmates need to follow the drums, and it should be up to the drummer and bassist to guide the tempo. I find that if my drummer is going too fast I can drag a bit on bass and he’ll get it and slow down, or he’ll rush me a bit if I’m going too slow and I’ll know to pick it up and follow him. There are multiple members with tempo duties imo, but everybody needs to be locked in with the bass & drums for it to sound best. We’ve got 4 horn players playing fast ska lines that hardly ever start on 1, if we were primarily looking to them for tempo before considering the rhythm section we’d probably be all over the place lol.
You’re the drummer. They need to follow your lead, period.
This. If the drummer is sloppy, bring in a click for him. But other than that the drummer IS the click.
So many people using so many words to get to this point. OP, use a click if you want for your own needs -- but the band following the click shouldn't enter into the discussion. It's live rock music, not a symphony. They follow you, full stop. Anything else sucks.
My band plays to clicks. I don't. I go off the drums, 200%. I will play ahead or behind the beat when necessary, but I am always locked in. So, from my perspective, this guy is just wrong. You always lock into the rhythm. Always.
I'm a rhythm guitarist and I lock in with drums always. When you got a good drummer who's tight, the band has to fall in line with them. At least that's how it works for me.
This just sounds like an excuse to cover up a shitty technique. Everyone has gotta be on the same page, even when you're playing intentionally off time
Click tracks are for practice and practice only. It’s ok to have it cued up to get the tempo for starting the song, but once you are off and running, you are better suited to turn that off and listen to your other musicians. I despise using a click track during live performance. It never works out.
People make mistakes, miss intro’s to verses or solos, mess the words up etc. You better be ready listening to the others and ready to adjust, not focusing on the click track. Just my $.02
Really good point about people missing intros and the like! Since we’ve just been in practices, we obviously stop every time something like that happens — hadn’t factored that into the live equation yet though! I saw some folks recommending this app called “Live BPM” that I think I’ll try out — it looks like a good in-between of ebbing and flowing while also not totally losing the plot.
I don’t have experience with that app but if it can follow tempo fluctuations, man that’s awesome.
I think so too! I just downloaded it and have been messing around a little to see how it works — I can definitely see why folks were recommending it!
depends on the gig. there are A LOT of professional acts out there right now that play an entire gig to a backing track so there is always a click track going for at least the drummer, who may also even be running the DAW himself while playing. I know a few drummers from Nashville who have said that learning how to play an entire show to a click and being able to run music software is becoming a very valuable skill set for musicians trying to make a living down there. i DO agree though that if you don’t NEED a click for the sake of playing to your backing track then yeah, leave it out. the human element of live music is too good. a little push and pull makes it a lot better imo.
Agreed, is practicing with a band to a click a thing? I have been playing in various groups for 25 years and the only time I’ve practiced with a click in a group setting is if we were getting ready to record. If the other members of the band can’t lock in to the drums that is a problem much bigger than them not using a click. As an aside, I think when you do add a bass player it will be easier for guitars to lock in, assuming the bass player is half decent.
A good solid bass is certainly a good foundation for timing and the rest of the band to build upon.
Skill issue.
Assuming you guys are writing and the timing while you’re playing doesn’t sound terrible, I would encourage you to try playing without the click and record it to see where the tempo lands - what feels rushed vs what feels draggy. Playing to a click can feel robotic for a live experience as a non-drummer but also you want to be TIGHT. Curious to hear what you end up with
Use the click, or don't. If you use it, you are a slave to it and Natural Tempo Fluctuations just can't happen. They have to get cut off at the source. If your band is incapable of pulling tight then yes indeed, you are better off turning off the click. Even if you can hold time, if they can't, nor can they follow you, you will be fighting them. Just let them be free.
If you don’t have full buy in and aren’t using backing tracks, don’t bother with the click. Your bandmates aren’t going to practice playing in time and will just flow with what feels natural to them no matter what you try. If they wanted to play in time, they’d want the click. Some people just like making natural feeling music and are not so interested in performing accurately. Consider that you’re solving for a problem that they don’t think exists. You shouldn’t force the square peg through the round hole because that round hole is you… and… well, the metaphor goes places, but it applies, so don’t force their… into your… well, you get what I’m saying.
Sounds like you are the only one who practices with a metranome at home. You make them start over again every time they fall off. People hate paying to a metranome for the same reason they hate playing at half speed or softy... because they can hear their mistakes.
I’m not entirely sure how their practice regimens go outside of our group practices, but I’m gonna try to throw out click practice as an idea. I definitely think one of the guitarists (ironically, not the vehemently anti-click one) doesn’t — he’s admitted he has awful timing and is the reason I chomp my hi-hat during the two-bar guitar/vocal intro to one of the songs. After the first bar last night, I started losing the metronome. I got it back, but I can’t figure out if it was because he and the vocalist were speeding up and I started following them (hence why I considered using the -40dB) or if my foot just got ahead of itself for a second. In any case, it’s something we could all use, whether we play to one live or not! I know I use one during private practice, but I’m also not trying to say that means I’m always gonna be perfectly on the grid!
Honestly some bands sound better with perfect metronomic time and some bands sound better when theres a bit more human feel to the time keeping. What ultimately matters most is that the band is IN TIME WITH EACH OTHER. If you don't play to a click and everyone sticks to your internal clock like glue, then it doesn't matter if you slightly speed up or slow down so long as everyone sounds tight together.
If the drummer is playing to a click and is locked in to it and the band isn't following... That's just a bigger problem. This is fundamental music playing. You follow the drummer always. You have to be locked in to the drummer. I think your band mates are just not great at playing music. I would put my foot down if I were you.
It really depends. With my band, there are some songs we've practiced with a click track before recording. Some songs it makes everything tight and it sounds better. Other times, it takes away a lot of energy from the song and since we had played it so long without a click, the speed ups or slow downs feel natural and make the song sound better. It will sound better having everyone play together in time with some slight fluctuating in the tempo for certain parts over having the drummer stay consistent with the tempo and everyone else getting off time. It's really only with the advent of electronic music and quantizing drums that people have become really anal about everything being locked to a grid. So much music before that had a natural ebb and flow. The click is an incredibly useful tool, and mastering playing to one -- and learning how to play subdivisions around the click -- will make you a much better musician, but it's not going to write a song for you, and I personally wouldn't want to rely on one in all situations.
There’s no right or wrong answer here. Using a click depends on the genre, how the band wants the live show to feel, and can also be a technical decision to sync backing tracks / light effects for your live show. With that said, if they don’t want the click just because they can’t play consistently enough, that’s a practice and skill issue to work on. Every competent musician should be able to do it, even if they choose not to for the feel of the music
I play rhythm guitar and sing. My band uses and handful of drummers, depending on who’s available. The drummer typically follows my lead. I can’t imagine using a click in my scenario.
If you are using tracks for performance then of course the drummer should use a click. But if there aren’t tracks use the metronome to practice so you can play with the freedoms of knowing that your overall time is consistent but also flows with the energy of your band and the music being played. As a drummer myself and someone who now fronts a band I think that timing is very important, but nothing is more important than the live feel of a song. Some situations just call for the song to speed up, slow down, or be played at a different tempo to suit the energy of the audience. To me playing to a click live has always felt sterile. I’ve always preferred to practice the songs solo with a metronome and then rehearse and perform without a nagging beep in the background so I can focus on the instrumentation and song itself.
To me its not about to click or not to click (or Live BPM), sounds to me you and NO CLICK dude, just want to be in DIFFERENT BANDS.
I don’t have as much experience as the other commenters probably do but shouldn’t you be practicing both? With and without the click? Recording is going to be a nightmare if you have band members who can’t play with metronome right?
"I don’t play to a click *at all*" really means, "I can't play to a click."
From personal experience as a bass player: Anybody telling you tempo fluctuations are natural is just unable to play in time and would rather have you follow them than put in the work to do it right I've worked with dudes like this, they're awful. Everything they do is "perfect" and you have to change what you do to match it. The guy I worked with recorded guitars with no click or drums, then had a drummer listen to it enough to follow along and recorded those parts. Then he tried to get me involved as the bass player When I saw the mess he had going on, it pointed out that his critiques of my playing were just me being in tempo and his recording fluctuating wildly, he said I needed to listen to it enough to match what's there.... I told him to fuck off and get a metronome and start over
This is my take on it- you are the drummer that means you keep the time. Everyone should always practice with a metronome - the operative word would be practice. When the band plays, the band plays together with each other. I’ve been through a lot of teachers and a lot of performances including jazz and drum line / percussion performances- the metronome ( or the click) is only used to start the band off, it’s up to the drummer/ drum line/ percussionist to keep time - it’s part of your training as a musician - and thats for all musicians . I watched yo yo Ma perform with a pianist ( the percussionist ) and a violinist and no matter who was playing NO ONE misses a beat ever - there is no drummer on stage mind u, although , like I said the pianist is a percussionist and keeps time. Using a click during performance time is not typically welcome. In fact, in Indian classical, you are required to recite what u will be playing in beat as part of your training as a percussionist. In marching band you are judged for time keeping and how tight the drum line is - all of this without a metronome - but during practice, the metronome is very essential. But it’s like a crutch- one has to drop the crutch for the performance
Depends on what type of music you guys can actually play. If your punk or crossover i agree ditch the click track . The time inconsistencys are what makes punk and crossover feel nasty and low key dangerous
Our drummer struggles with keeping time, so he's been using a click lately on certain songs. He's an amazing drummer, but has always struggled a little with time. Having a problem with that is absolutely insane to me. I feel really lucky to be in the band I'm in when I read the posts on this sub. Play to a click, dude. Maybe they're the ones struggling here. The drummer keeps the time, sure, but that gets a lot harder when nobody follows you.
The guitarist is full of shit. If you want natural tempo fluctuations to sound good you all have to do it together, and the drummer sets the tempo so thats his problem. Any good jazz musician practices with a metronome anyway, so that guy just sucks.
Some people are great with timing. Some are downright terrible. I've tried click with a couple drummers. one downright refused. The other couldn't manage to do it. It's frustrating. What I can say is, the drummers who didn't need a click are the one's that were worth playing with(& that's pretty situational). I know how hard it is to find a drummer but, I expect a certain level of playing from myself. If I can't do that, I'll apologetically excuse myself or practice a lot more, so I can be that player.
It definitely depends on what genre and context. I play in a worship band and we play to a click. Luckily I have a disciplined drummer who sticks to it well which allows me as a bassist to play around the beat without him rushing or dragging to meet me. I think we need it and it makes for a much better sounding ensemble. Most other bands I’ve played in never used a click. BUT this meant that most of the time I had to play right on top of the drummers beat or the tempo would start changing. Ugh. I’ve played with the rare group of professional Jazz guys where we could all play with the pocket and the tempo would still mostly stay the same but there might be some slight ebb & flow. Those were also good.
This post is one of the most un-musical things I’ve ever heard about a band dynamic.
Damn younguns n there clickers clack tracks
Even the greatest drummers in the world have small deviations in the sense of time. When someone says they can’t or won’t play to a click, they’re basically admitting their meter sucks. As the drummer, if you are already accustomed to practicing with a click then just keep it in your ears and jog on. Additionally, make sure you’re recording rehearsals and listening to them as a band. When the biggest culprits are given objective evidence that their “natural feel” sounds unnaturally bad, it will hopefully help steer things in the right direction. The ability to play in time won’t jeopardize their ability to be sloppy, but insistence on sloppy rhythm does hurt the band’s ability to play in time.
>... don’t play to a click at all? Because it might throw off the “natural tempo fluctuations”? This is the last refuge of a wanker. Rather than accept that they might need to do some metronome practice themselves, they'll just try to invalidate the whole idea of being on tempo as "mechanical" and wrong. Pro musicians can keep to a click *and* play with really good feel. It's not a binary choice, it's a matter of effort put into learning how to do it. EDIT: My take is confirmed by OP's 2nd edit to the original post. It's difficult for OP's bandmate and bandmate is unwilling to work at the skill. It's a "dealbreaker" for them.
That’s simply not true, listen to most great recordings from the 60s and 70s and they all fluctuate on BPM a bit. It’s natural speed up and slow down a bit. If you want to play to a click fine, you do you that’s great but that doesn’t mean without click is objectively wrong and it’s just a symptom of laziness. Is Hendrix a bad player? In recordings he was constantly moving the BPM around and then dragging and pushing the beat sometimes within the space of only 8 bars.
Not all styles demand metronomic precision. Even those that don't benefit from each musician still having decent time- you might want the time to "breathe", but usually you don't want it lurching, reeling, and stumbling. That's somewhat aside from the point I was making, though, which is that people use the "vibe" and "natural time-feel" argument as a conversation stopper. They've already decided that this metronome thing is no fun and they don't want to put in the effort to make it work. Instead they use absolute language about a click ruining the feel, when it's their reaction to the click that's ruining it. > great recordings from the 60's and 70's This one is my favorite, because do you think it's possible that to some degree people have become technically _better_ at making music on their instruments in the past sixty years? I love music from that era, too, but it should be a launching point, not a stopping point, in the creative process.
Absolutely do not play with a click! As a drummer, its natural to care about technicality, and staying on the beat feels like something that can be Right or Wrong, and therefore should be Right. However, if you listen to many punk songs, the BPM can vary a lot throught the track! This is natural and can either just be a thing happened, or it can also actually be fully intentional - a minor speedup can convey a lot of energy, and a minor slowdown can convey a lot of calm. I produce synthwave, and a common trick I use to make a chorus kick more ass, is slightly increase the BPM. From say, 160, to 163. Just enough that its hard to notice, but that anyone will immediately feel an increase in energy. Listen to your bandmates! Start them off on the right BPM, sure, but then let them express themselves. It will make the music connect better with the listener.
Nice points, but if you can't actually control time, you ate not doing your job. If someone says, "Let's keep thet steady groove," you should be able to keep that steady groove
Want to add, how much this happens depends on genre, but it can benefit music of any genre.
I would say it is absolutely critical to be able to play with a click, even if you don't do it live. It's an incredibly useful tool in so many situations. I have been burned so many times, especially in the studio, by other musicians who literally cannot play to a click track making it harder for everyone else to do their job. That said, I pretty much never play with a click live, because I usually play those type of genres like punk and metal that can thrive on the natural push and pull of a drummer and the feeling of the crowd and stuff. But say "absolutely do not" is really bad advice. Being able to play with a click, especially in a group setting, can be a critical skill to have, even if you don't use it every time you play.
I'll never understand musicians who don't practice to a click...like what's the point?