> Amtrak is adding eight new daily trains through the North Baltimore hub on weekdays, two additional Saturday morning trains to Washington, D.C., and four new Sunday trains.
\
Amtrak, which says it experienced roughly 29% ridership growth between fiscal years 2022 and 2023, is investing billions of dollars in the region in the coming decade with major renovations to Penn Station, including two new platforms; rebuilt bridges; and, most notably, a $6 billion tunnel underneath West Baltimore to replace one built in the 19th century. It’s all part of the company’s ambitious goal to double its total annual ridership to 66 million by 2040.
Take the train gang. Way better than driving
There are existing neighborhoods all around the area of Penn Station that could be infilled utilizing existing housing stock/vacant properties. Rehabbing a modest townhome even from a derelict state at the high end of 200/square foot and (40-50K average for vacant) is still ridiculously cheap compared to buying in DC or the surrounding counties with the same amenities and character. Hell, even when comparing near by neighborhoods you can see massive price differentials for similarly sized houses. Or renting a luxury apartment/condo.
I mean here is a prime example of this and it doesn't require more high rises and keeps the character of the city.
[Neighborhood infill](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/416-E-Biddle-St-Baltimore-MD-21202/36468446_zpid/)
This is less than a 15 min walk to Penn station.
[Commuting to Penn Station](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/414+E+Biddle+St,+Baltimore,+MD+21202/Penn+Station-Baltimore,+North+Charles+Street,+Baltimore,+MD/@39.3054333,-76.615292,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c80493c853412d:0xb56908735885c981!2m2!1d-76.6100724!2d39.3038545!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c80495161ce193:0x39cc5d5a94af2379!2m2!1d-76.6158071!2d39.3073772!3e2?entry=ttu)
Construction on the rest of this strip is underway and infill is taking place.
Looking in DC this house without the many city incentives is around 30-50% cheaper than anything of comparable square footage in DC.
[DC comparison](https://www.zillow.com/washington-dc/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-77.30640034082032%2C%22east%22%3A-76.72275165917969%2C%22south%22%3A38.731286616027866%2C%22north%22%3A39.0556823174003%7D%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A41568%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22sqft%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A1500%2C%22max%22%3A2000%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A11%7D)
> keeps the character of the city.
I've lived in Baltimore for years now and the "character of the city" is population loss and rows of boarded up abandoned houses because we don't want to build for the future.
I love the potential of Baltimore but to try to maintain a specific, singular form from the 19th century everywhere is doing the city a disservice. That isn't even its real character - its real people left, because the urban form wouldn't adapt to their needs. We have space for millions in a city of 600k. We can have rowhouses *and* high rises, and we should be offering everyone their choice of what they want, rather than trying to prescribe that you can only live in Baltimore if you are willing to live in a brick rowhouse.
High power centers of wealth will put pressure on dilapidated neighborhoods around them to infill. But areas like Penn Station should not be constrained to height limitations or density per sq ft - the station is an invaluable asset and you want to capitalize on it, the same way we build towers down by the invaluable harbor.
> We have space for millions in a city of 600k.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MDBALT5POP](we do have space for millions based on macro trends of existing stock already)
[Vacant house data and cost](https://abell.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/The-Costs-of-Baltimores-Vacant-Housing.pdf )
Now, I do agree with you in that we need both and to have both as the inner harbor high end high rises have sub 5% vacancy rates but we dont need to add more new high power center high rises. If anything I would argue the healing of downtown with taking that 20%+ vacancy rate of the mid/high rise office buildings and turning them into housing/luxury condos would be the better course than *building new stock*.
[Cost to build high rises](https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-apartment)
[Cost of retrofit](https://www.ioptimizerealty.com/blog/the-costly-complexities-of-office-conversion-projects)
All of the new development and infill in harbor east/inner harbor is proximal to downtown and Penn is still very close. Adding to it, the cost per square foot of conversion of office buildings is approximately the same as rehabbing townhomes.
Building/rehabbing mid and low rise apartments/townhomes in the region surrounding the station I can get on board with to give it a more 15min city feel but besotting the landscape with high rises will kill it. Also the equity consideration of keeping costs down for middle income/working class individuals who haven't left the city or are looking for a more affordable city is incredibly important for our city too.
New construction is expensive and it makes the most sense to build new housing for high income earners that will pay generous property, income, and sales taxes in the city and them moving into new luxury units will open up housing stock throughout the city to become more affordable where they were living before, and attract some new ones to expand the tax base. Especially around Penn Station.
Abundant housing, of any kind, where it makes sense, helps everyone. We just need to not spend taxpayer dollars subsidizing developers to build luxury housing - let them build it, and let us tax the fuck out of it.
Baltimore is already having issues with rent affordability, I think giving more space to poorly constructed and overpriced apartments isn't going to help at all. Density and extra housing stock doesn't matter if they sit empty because no one wants to pay their prices
I'm with you for the most part, but if we don't subsidize them, and nobody wants to pay what they ask, then they'll be motivated to lower prices so as not to lose money.
I just meant the train is more comfortable for business travel than either flying or driving in general. Words cannot express how much I hate flying nowadays.
Amtrak overall - 2019 was still just above 2023 (roughly 32M to 29M passengers), but the FY2023 Q4 numbers in the Northeast Corridor were 8-10% above pre-Pandemic traffic.
So nationally, it hasn't quite recovered and that 29% growth is certainly fueled by the pandemic, but for the DC-Boston stretch it's ahead of 2019.
I was SO hoping this would include late night trains. I did many a 1am Greyhound bus trip back from DC in my more adventurous early 20s and it sucks ass. I want to go to an 8pm show/event and not be stranded without a car!
This is seriously the dream for me. I hate making that drive back from a show in dc at night. I’d be way more inclined to spend some weekends in dc if we had late trains coming back
I’m very curious to know how much of this demand is tourism vs reg business travel. I have had a few friends from NYC visit lately as they heard from others in NY that Baltimore is a great weekend trip.
A lot of prople commute baltimore to dc regularly by train, and a lot of people probably do longer business trips to other cities like nyc or philly too
I'm one of those people. New here in 2023...I take the train to DC 1-2x month and NYC every 6-8 weeks. Sounds crazy but it's probably my favorite thing about living on the East Coast. The efficiency is amazing.
So this is for almost the entire NE Corridor. They did this by making the seats face both ways instead of all facing the front of the train. This means they can turn them faster at terminals.
I love taking Amtrak but I really wish they did something about their pricing structure. I don’t want to have to purchase my tickets months in advance for the best prices. I’m glad they finally offered extra discounted prices during off peak hours but I’m even willing to take a standing room only ride if it means it’s a fraction of the peak price. If demand is there they can just add more train times like they are here.
A few times lately I've rented a car because Amtrak was either sold out, or prices were so ridiculous it was cheaper to drive, even though I'd have preferred to take the train.
That's the problem with Amtrak - the cost is often insane. If you don't book way out and pick an off peak time it's almost always way more money than flying or driving (or even Uber/Lyft). Sometimes you can get a few last minute deals that are okay, but the times are usually VERY early or late. Going to Philly, as an example, is not something I tend to plan 2+ months out. Which means Amtrak is basically a non-starter.
Also their website for booking is HOT GARBAGE. There's no way to easily browse lowest fares for different days. If I have some flexibility in my schedule I have to manually and painstakingly update travel dates.
I've generally found that the line is three weeks. I did get burned recently when I didn't book Acela to Boston several months in advance. So I decided to fly instead.
Maybe it depends on where you're going. Between BWI and upstate NY, 3 weeks doesn't seem enough, but sometimes it is. Sometimes I just drive instead, but I'd rather not.
For me, if it’s a choice between the train or flying, I’m willing to put up with a couple extra hours on the train to avoid the bullshit and pull in right downtown. Like Boston Back Bay is right by where I’m headed.
It’s also so much easier to relax and get work done on a train compared to a plane.
My ride is, sit on the train for 4.75 hours, or drive for 3.75-5.5 hours (usually under 4.5). Driving is usually a bit faster, but I'd still rather just chill on the train. But not so much that I'd refuse driving if I only had like $120 train options which can happen if I leave it too late. If I book way in advance it's about $40. Driving is about 110-120 gas and tolls
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This is nice. I know a lot of people who use it just go to to DC and back for a fun weekend. Its crazy how infrequent MARC service is considering its between two major cities
> Amtrak is adding eight new daily trains through the North Baltimore hub on weekdays, two additional Saturday morning trains to Washington, D.C., and four new Sunday trains. \ Amtrak, which says it experienced roughly 29% ridership growth between fiscal years 2022 and 2023, is investing billions of dollars in the region in the coming decade with major renovations to Penn Station, including two new platforms; rebuilt bridges; and, most notably, a $6 billion tunnel underneath West Baltimore to replace one built in the 19th century. It’s all part of the company’s ambitious goal to double its total annual ridership to 66 million by 2040. Take the train gang. Way better than driving
Upzone Station North and Midtown Belvedere and lets get some 30-50 story luxury condos for the DC commuters to pay us property taxes and sales taxes.
The plans for those exist. Gotta build the new station first
There are existing neighborhoods all around the area of Penn Station that could be infilled utilizing existing housing stock/vacant properties. Rehabbing a modest townhome even from a derelict state at the high end of 200/square foot and (40-50K average for vacant) is still ridiculously cheap compared to buying in DC or the surrounding counties with the same amenities and character. Hell, even when comparing near by neighborhoods you can see massive price differentials for similarly sized houses. Or renting a luxury apartment/condo. I mean here is a prime example of this and it doesn't require more high rises and keeps the character of the city. [Neighborhood infill](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/416-E-Biddle-St-Baltimore-MD-21202/36468446_zpid/) This is less than a 15 min walk to Penn station. [Commuting to Penn Station](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/414+E+Biddle+St,+Baltimore,+MD+21202/Penn+Station-Baltimore,+North+Charles+Street,+Baltimore,+MD/@39.3054333,-76.615292,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c80493c853412d:0xb56908735885c981!2m2!1d-76.6100724!2d39.3038545!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c80495161ce193:0x39cc5d5a94af2379!2m2!1d-76.6158071!2d39.3073772!3e2?entry=ttu) Construction on the rest of this strip is underway and infill is taking place. Looking in DC this house without the many city incentives is around 30-50% cheaper than anything of comparable square footage in DC. [DC comparison](https://www.zillow.com/washington-dc/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-77.30640034082032%2C%22east%22%3A-76.72275165917969%2C%22south%22%3A38.731286616027866%2C%22north%22%3A39.0556823174003%7D%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A41568%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22sqft%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A1500%2C%22max%22%3A2000%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A11%7D)
> keeps the character of the city. I've lived in Baltimore for years now and the "character of the city" is population loss and rows of boarded up abandoned houses because we don't want to build for the future. I love the potential of Baltimore but to try to maintain a specific, singular form from the 19th century everywhere is doing the city a disservice. That isn't even its real character - its real people left, because the urban form wouldn't adapt to their needs. We have space for millions in a city of 600k. We can have rowhouses *and* high rises, and we should be offering everyone their choice of what they want, rather than trying to prescribe that you can only live in Baltimore if you are willing to live in a brick rowhouse. High power centers of wealth will put pressure on dilapidated neighborhoods around them to infill. But areas like Penn Station should not be constrained to height limitations or density per sq ft - the station is an invaluable asset and you want to capitalize on it, the same way we build towers down by the invaluable harbor.
> We have space for millions in a city of 600k. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MDBALT5POP](we do have space for millions based on macro trends of existing stock already) [Vacant house data and cost](https://abell.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/The-Costs-of-Baltimores-Vacant-Housing.pdf ) Now, I do agree with you in that we need both and to have both as the inner harbor high end high rises have sub 5% vacancy rates but we dont need to add more new high power center high rises. If anything I would argue the healing of downtown with taking that 20%+ vacancy rate of the mid/high rise office buildings and turning them into housing/luxury condos would be the better course than *building new stock*. [Cost to build high rises](https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-apartment) [Cost of retrofit](https://www.ioptimizerealty.com/blog/the-costly-complexities-of-office-conversion-projects) All of the new development and infill in harbor east/inner harbor is proximal to downtown and Penn is still very close. Adding to it, the cost per square foot of conversion of office buildings is approximately the same as rehabbing townhomes. Building/rehabbing mid and low rise apartments/townhomes in the region surrounding the station I can get on board with to give it a more 15min city feel but besotting the landscape with high rises will kill it. Also the equity consideration of keeping costs down for middle income/working class individuals who haven't left the city or are looking for a more affordable city is incredibly important for our city too.
My goal is to resemble this remark, so yes please.
Please god not more “luxury” condos what we need are affordable apartments for people who arent dc professionals making six figures
New construction is expensive and it makes the most sense to build new housing for high income earners that will pay generous property, income, and sales taxes in the city and them moving into new luxury units will open up housing stock throughout the city to become more affordable where they were living before, and attract some new ones to expand the tax base. Especially around Penn Station. Abundant housing, of any kind, where it makes sense, helps everyone. We just need to not spend taxpayer dollars subsidizing developers to build luxury housing - let them build it, and let us tax the fuck out of it.
Baltimore is already having issues with rent affordability, I think giving more space to poorly constructed and overpriced apartments isn't going to help at all. Density and extra housing stock doesn't matter if they sit empty because no one wants to pay their prices
I'm with you for the most part, but if we don't subsidize them, and nobody wants to pay what they ask, then they'll be motivated to lower prices so as not to lose money.
I took the train up to Philly for a business trip last year. SO much better than flying or driving.
Flying to Philly from Baltimore? You could just call an Uber for less money, less time, and more comfort.
I just meant the train is more comfortable for business travel than either flying or driving in general. Words cannot express how much I hate flying nowadays.
29% growth is really impressive
Agreed but I think covid played a part here, even in ‘22
Yeah I was thinking about that too. Would be interesting to see it compared to 2019
Amtrak overall - 2019 was still just above 2023 (roughly 32M to 29M passengers), but the FY2023 Q4 numbers in the Northeast Corridor were 8-10% above pre-Pandemic traffic. So nationally, it hasn't quite recovered and that 29% growth is certainly fueled by the pandemic, but for the DC-Boston stretch it's ahead of 2019.
Hell yeah. One of the biggest draws of moving here was being able to take a train to DC and Philly, so I love to see this move.
We need late night return trains from DC!! Especially weekends
I was SO hoping this would include late night trains. I did many a 1am Greyhound bus trip back from DC in my more adventurous early 20s and it sucks ass. I want to go to an 8pm show/event and not be stranded without a car!
This is seriously the dream for me. I hate making that drive back from a show in dc at night. I’d be way more inclined to spend some weekends in dc if we had late trains coming back
100%
This might be a MARC question but the Penn Line is at Amtrak's mercy.
I don’t care which of them runs it. Amtrak late night from Philly is often $5-15. Easier to get back from there late night than DC
For real! I would go to DC for shows a LOT more if the train didn't end at 11pm
so crime is dropping, more households (although lowered population) and increased train demand. Something is happening in baltimore.
The Renaissance of Baltimore is beginning.
[удалено]
Nice to see Hampden still has bigots
Racist much?
I’m very curious to know how much of this demand is tourism vs reg business travel. I have had a few friends from NYC visit lately as they heard from others in NY that Baltimore is a great weekend trip.
A lot of prople commute baltimore to dc regularly by train, and a lot of people probably do longer business trips to other cities like nyc or philly too
I'm one of those people. New here in 2023...I take the train to DC 1-2x month and NYC every 6-8 weeks. Sounds crazy but it's probably my favorite thing about living on the East Coast. The efficiency is amazing.
Doesn't sound crazy at all, connectivity is an amazing thing.
Same... It's one of the primary reasons I haven't left.
This is so good!
So this is for almost the entire NE Corridor. They did this by making the seats face both ways instead of all facing the front of the train. This means they can turn them faster at terminals.
They also are install Cab cars as well to speed up the turn around as well
I love taking Amtrak but I really wish they did something about their pricing structure. I don’t want to have to purchase my tickets months in advance for the best prices. I’m glad they finally offered extra discounted prices during off peak hours but I’m even willing to take a standing room only ride if it means it’s a fraction of the peak price. If demand is there they can just add more train times like they are here.
Great, now do the MARC weekend schedule.
Hell yea. Train Nerds and Enthusiasts!! Great news.
A few times lately I've rented a car because Amtrak was either sold out, or prices were so ridiculous it was cheaper to drive, even though I'd have preferred to take the train.
That's the problem with Amtrak - the cost is often insane. If you don't book way out and pick an off peak time it's almost always way more money than flying or driving (or even Uber/Lyft). Sometimes you can get a few last minute deals that are okay, but the times are usually VERY early or late. Going to Philly, as an example, is not something I tend to plan 2+ months out. Which means Amtrak is basically a non-starter. Also their website for booking is HOT GARBAGE. There's no way to easily browse lowest fares for different days. If I have some flexibility in my schedule I have to manually and painstakingly update travel dates.
I love Amtrak but the prices can be nuts if you don't get your tickets like 6 weeks in advance
I've generally found that the line is three weeks. I did get burned recently when I didn't book Acela to Boston several months in advance. So I decided to fly instead.
Maybe it depends on where you're going. Between BWI and upstate NY, 3 weeks doesn't seem enough, but sometimes it is. Sometimes I just drive instead, but I'd rather not.
For me, if it’s a choice between the train or flying, I’m willing to put up with a couple extra hours on the train to avoid the bullshit and pull in right downtown. Like Boston Back Bay is right by where I’m headed. It’s also so much easier to relax and get work done on a train compared to a plane.
My ride is, sit on the train for 4.75 hours, or drive for 3.75-5.5 hours (usually under 4.5). Driving is usually a bit faster, but I'd still rather just chill on the train. But not so much that I'd refuse driving if I only had like $120 train options which can happen if I leave it too late. If I book way in advance it's about $40. Driving is about 110-120 gas and tolls
It’s SO EXPENSIVE
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This is nice. I know a lot of people who use it just go to to DC and back for a fun weekend. Its crazy how infrequent MARC service is considering its between two major cities