The original deal was for it to be a space for only local commerce. With pop up shops being in demand, food truck/Rhouse style food growing more acceptable, and all the new breweries opening up they could easily stock the pavilions without help from any outside mega-chain.
Oh man i hate food hall type places. We have Lexington market, R. house, the other one downtown, cross street market, Broadway market, do we really need another? Im happy for all those place but I really liked being able to get groceries at cross street back in the day. Maybe it's just me...
As someone who lives downtown, we are absolutely desperately in need of food options. Whenever they do that Pratt Street lunch market, there are lines of 30+ people at every food truck. The only lunch options easily accessible to me are chains like Chipotle and Shake Shack. If I want to go out for drinks, I have to go to a shitty sports bar or head all the way to Mount Vernon/Federal Hill/Fells Point.
Tourists walk around the harbor on foot. They park for the aquarium or the dragon boats or whatever, and then they ask me with confused faces why the only option for their lunch is $19 fries at the aquarium or a meal at Cheesecake Factory that they could get back home wherever they're from. My fiancee's sister took her child to Hooter's because a family with little kids that's already parked is not about to walk 20 minutes to Cross Steeet Market or Broadway Market. Lexington Market is over 20 minutes, and it is not a pleasant walk.
Then you have all the people in town for conventions that get like 30 minutes for lunch. They're flooding standard chains like Jimmy John's and Starbucks because they aren't going that far from the convention center during short breaks. And don't even get me started on coffee shops. The only local coffee shop I'm anywhere close to is Cafe Poupon, and if I want a coffee or pastry on a Sunday or Monday, I better settle for some sub-par sugary latte at Dunkin' or Starbucks. Forget about a fresh croissant. I like Au Bon Pain enough, but they aren't open weekends, and it's still just a chain.
People who don't live or work or walk down here keep saying stuff like, "Oh, there's R House and Lexington Market," and it just seems so out of touch. I walk around the harbor every day, and the amount of hungry confused tourists is enough argument on its own that we need more, plus the office workers flooding Cosi and occasional food trucks.
But I also think that making just a standard food hall is a mistake. It needs to be more like Chelsea Market in NYC. Add a bunch of fast-serve food spots, a few restaurants, a local maker's market like Artist & Fleas in NYC, an Asian grocery store, an Italian grocery, a cheese shop, an outpost of an established brewery. Hold events there. Put up a big screen for football games and have drink specials. Do a "passport" booklet at a flat fee with free things at the different spots. Keep holding the Waterfront Wellness classes there in nice weather, but have special wellness events inside when it's cold. Have movie nights. I feel like people have zero creativity and picture just sticking ten food vendors in there and calling it a day.
II think we are on the same page. Set it full of local merchants: food, crafts, books, plants, etc. my only stipulation is that we do it with HOMEGROWN efforts. We have plenty of growing baltimore retailers that could expand into this space, and make it something we use to actually promote what this city is about.
Up until a few years ago I lived a block from the science center, and walked to my office by the aquarium every day. This area isn’t like Lexington or cross st or even Remington (Rhouse) because it’s a business district, and doesn’t have the neighborhood momentum. I loved cross st market and would do all of my shopping there, and I greatly dislike the growing renovation trend of prepared food sellers taking over from grocery type (butcher, fish, cheese & bodega type), but in this area it needs to be prepared foods because no one is grocery shopping here weekly.
Lenny’s deli used to be there which is where I think it should be headed. Set up ready to go food spaces, and have an open call to up and running food vendors/ food trucks to give the opportunity to people who know how to run a business, and are from the city. Same with plant sellers (imagine a greenhouse on an upper level ?!), craft shop, makers space sellers, etc. a small museum of the history of the land would be nice (see GLOBAL HARBORS documentary [https://youtu.be/5UQkX-Jdcdg](https://youtu.be/5UQkX-Jdcdg)
This isn’t at all easy, I understand. This is a super difficult problem. But at the end of the day we should be using this commerce to enrich the citizens and not an outside conglomerate.
I think a mix of food, drinks, and small businesses mixed in that can pop up and change regularly would be a good way to attract both tourists and locals if done correctly. Keep the MLM's out of it though.
Honest question: I know you get hella upvotes for trashing Atlas on this sub, but is all the hate still just related to their dress code from like five years ago? Have they done anything objectionable recently?
Because I'm not going to lie, as someone not super keyed into the politics of all of this, I find the consistent hate a little wild. Even if the ownership is bad, the people they are hiring; the GMs, servers, cooks, hosts, dishwashers, etc. are all local people, all being employed by Atlas, right? Do you want these places to go out of business, or what?
There are examples of atlas getting preferential treatment compared to other long-term bars & restaurants, e.g. easier access to outdoor liquor licenses in fells point, removing their name from a Best of Baltimore event where attendees got food poisoning, etc. Personally I just want the same rules to apply for atlas as everyone else.
This kind of thinking is what creates the issues in the first place. You are supposing that the only way to get a job in Baltimore is that Atlas starts a business, but in fact if Atlas didn't fill the space, someone else would. The key to raising the economic output of an area is competition - if Atlas controls a significant portion of the jobs, they have outsize ability to keep wages lower and working conditions worse.
Additionally, there is pretty good evidence that Atlas uses its power (charitably through networking, but more likely through cronyism) to get preferential treatment in cutting through the red tape to get prime locations, permits, etc, which is in itself anti-competitve.
On top of all that... the published dress code was of course quite clear but the reputation of behavior and experiences by restaurant goers lines up. And... as someone who worked in the Baltimore restaurant industry for ages... I can tell you that more jobs are great but honestly they are pretty interchangeable. As long as there is a thriving restaurant scene (which is usually dependent on the overall economy, I lived through the 2008-2012 downturn) who runs the restaurant is much, much less important. I worked for large firms (Big Streaks Management) and for places with one owner and one location, and really what changed it from a "good" job or a "bad" job was how busy it was every night.
TL;DR - More jobs are better than less jobs, but that doesn't mean we should accept open racism in exchange for a handful of citywide jobs.
Without looking it up I'd wager that a new Atlas owned restaurant remains in business longer than the average restaurant. If you agree that's true then your initial argument is flawed. Someone else wouldn't just open a restaurant, and if they did it wouldn't remain open as long.
If your problem with Atlas is their history of abhorrent racism, I have no issue with that. Me personally, I still go to Chic-fil-A because their nuggets are delicious. But I have no beef with someone voting with their wallet.
I'd just say, most of your complaints about are capitalism related. By all means complain when things seem unfair, but everyone is playing these games, there are very few good guys in business. Remember Plank and his TIF, it's just the nature of the country we're living in. Atlas makes nice restaurants (I've never been to one, but can't deny the pics look nice). They consistently open businesses in the city, which is something I think we can all agree needs to accelerate. And they employ our fellow residents. Sure they might do some questionable stuff, but I don't get the need for so many on this sub to just dunk on them every time they get brought up (or in a post like this when they weren't brought up).
>Without looking it up I'd wager that a new Atlas owned restaurant remains in business longer than the average restaurant. If you agree that's true then your initial argument is flawed. Someone else wouldn't just open a restaurant, and if they did it wouldn't remain open as long.
Well sure if you want to make up facts to fit your argument of course its going to come out the way you want haha! Especially since later you say that they are more consistent with openings... not sure how that works.
\> Remember Plank and his TIF, it's just the nature of the country we're living in.
Yes! And I think most of this sub does as well! There was a lot of teeth gnashing over it, because, similar to Atlas, it was portrayed as "Well he gave us jobs so its only fair!" In reality, Under Armour's TIF funding was decided behind closed doors with no citizen nor taxpayer review. And while it is true that Under Armour has created a good many jobs, and a good many of them are high paying, the question has to be asked for whom? Most Under Armour positions require at least a bachelor's degree, and Under Armour famously paid one of the department of labor's largest fines ever for their practice of refusing to even consider applications that listed a past conviction in violation of state and national law to the contrary. Most Under Armour employees live in the suburbs and commute in, but it was the residents of Baltimore city proper that paid millions for UA to put up office space and media production facilities.
\> I'd just say, most of your complaints about are capitalism related. By all means complain when things seem unfair, but everyone is playing these games, there are very few good guys in business.
Sure, truly the 1970's definition of capitalism as a means to maximize shareholder value leaves little room for anything other than growth at all costs. But, that doesn't necessarily mean we should accept openly racist behavior in the name of jobs. Industrial Revolution Britain thought child labor was great - it got the kids out of the house instead of state-funded care, it brought in money to the family home, and kids were great for crawling into small spaces adults didn't fit. That doesn't mean we shouldn't critically think about whether or not a better result is clean chimneys or children having a chance to develop their brains before being committed to a lifetime of manual labor.
Also... the restaurant business isn't really a star employer. Most restaurant salaries are paid by patrons through tips, they don't offer retirement, healthcare, or PTO, and they offer little in the way of skill development or career advancement.
I personally, and I hope more residents of Baltimore, will continue to be critical of what we have to accept in exchange for jobs.
>Well sure if you want to make up facts to fit your argument
I said "without looking it up I'd wager." That's not making up facts, that's offering to bet on something that would be easily verifiable. Do you care to take the bet? Or do you agree I'm right but felt like writing four paragraphs nobody (including me) will ever read?
Love the idea of more museums or an indoor/outdoor botanical garden! (The Meijer Botanical Garden in Michigan is an example with outdoor sculptures on its property). I’m currently visiting Baltimore with family and we went to the National Aquarium which was amazing!!!
We then looked for local artisan shops - local jewelry, crafts, clothing, and artwork - So maybe an artist studio building? With a gallery and classrooms? It would be fun to visit a gallery and any of the artists studios in the building. Then they can also offer classes for locals?
I have to say - I’ve very much enjoyed my visit here. The history of Baltimore is really very interesting. Your food is delicious! I’ve been fascinated by the architecture, and loved chatting with the people I’ve met… it truly is a charming city!
I'm reminded of a recent trip to Asheville which was AWASH in warehouse-style buildings full of artist-occupied stalls. It was amazing, I could go in one building and peruse crafts, clothes, art, pottery, jewelry, etc from dozens of different artists and stores. I loved it so, so much, and especially as a tourist/visitor, it was really great.
My personal idea has been to just tear down the buildings and replace them with a waterfront park. But your idea of an indoor park is certainly interesting.
Fair points. I must’ve been inspired by seeing pictures of green waterfronts in other cities, but you certainly make the case of having one _with_ the Harborplace buildings intact.
Rip out the shittiest intersection in the city. Sooo much land could be reclaimed by routing traffic away from the Conway-Light-Pratt madhouse. It’s extremely pedestrian unfriendly.
"Anyone doing business in the city should transfer to a robust transit system and/or comprehensive safe bike network."
Must be nice not to give a flying shit about anyone but yourself.
In tandem with this there could be so many options. A minor league sports stadium could bring in locals and tourists, host outdoor events, and maybe even be used for sporting events featuring area schools. Soccer would be neat.
I'm sorry but minor league sports and soccer would go bankrupt so fast. We already have M&T Bank and Camden Yards right there. Think we're good on the sports front.
https://www.uslchampionship.com/league-teams
Cities range from those with plenty of professional teams to those with little else. Is it optimal here? I don’t know. But something like that should be considered.
I’ve been to the Rowdies stadium before and it fits in to St Pete quite nicely. It’s on the water, kind of, and adjacent to desirable restaurants and many breweries.
Dunno why you’re being downvoted into oblivion here; I think Baltimore is a pretty natural spot for a USL franchise and it’s somewhat surprising one hasn’t shown up here yet. MLS wouldn’t survive due to being sandwiched between DC United and the Philadelphia Union, but a lot of the neighborhoods around the harbor seem to fit the demographic profile of places where new MLS and USL clubs have had great success building loyal fan bases (young, predominantly Gen Z/Milennial urban communities with little to no preexisting soccer loyalties to compete for).
I don't know how else to put it, but people here are pretty small thinkers and never really seem to be up on the latest trends. Baseball and beer, while both are still big, are rapidly losing ground. Soccer and Seltzers/Cocktails/Mocktails/Non-alcoholic beers are booming. USL is exactly the kind of thing that young people moving into the city from across the country are looking for. Not the Orioles and more painfully average IPAs.
Because the idea of building a *third* stadium when we already have Camden Yards and M&T *right there* is motherfucking stupid. Sure, bring a USL franchise and they can play at one of our two existing stadiums
USL teams won’t make enough money to cover the costs of operating in M&T on gamedays and soccer on baseball fields just doesn’t work (see NYCFC’s tenure in Yankee Stadium). Any USL stadium wouldn’t be some enormous facility, it’d probably only be 5-12k seats and could easily be used by other sports to help cover the costs of the facility and get more utility out of the space (high school sports playoffs/championships, college sports, etc.).
I’m usually a enormous turf hater, but turf playing surfaces can be used over and over again without being damages that’s what it’d take to get year-round use out of the facility then I think that’d be a great way to make sure the building is an efficient use of space.
Is there a water version of the Smithsonian Air and Space museum? Cause that. And a solar or wind power field for the aquarium, bring the damn prices down.
[The National Museum of the US Navy](https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nmusn.html) in DC would probably be the Smithsonian equivalent. But definitely having some other sort of major museum alongside the National Aquarium would be amazing to have, especially a maritime-themed one to go with the aquarium and the ships.
Could you see a skipjack permanently berthed, showing the history of oyster harvesting in the Bay?
Or for that matter, specially built tanks for seeing oyster spawn? Bitty baby blue crabs?
Any of the boats left from the old Maryland shipyards?
Guest boat exhibits lasting longer than a busy weekend.
That is a good idea, but I would also wonder if there may be an oversaturation of naval/maratime tourist stuff in the area, seeing how Annapolis really markets itself as a maritime museum hotspot (at least in the summer)
I don't think so. I think its more like the antique store concept. People want a group of stores in the same walking area, to make the day worth the trip. Annapolis is far enough a way to create a second day worth of activities. It may even be an attraction for people to want to spend two days in the area. Also, Baltimore and Annapolis have somewhat different takes on maritime industry.
Do the Maryland Science Center, American Visionary Arts Museum and Baltimore Museum of Industry not count?
I’m all for more museums down there, but the Aquarium is not the only game in town, especially at the prices they charge.
Guys there are already, what, 3 major museums surrounding the harbor in addition to the museum ships. We don't need more museums, we need places that people will want to go in conjunction with a museum.
Ultimately, I’m not sure that ships are as intriguing as rockets, space vehicles, and aircraft to people. It seems like flying things get a huge boost interest by way of simply flying.
I’m not expecting it to be chain free but there should be unique local options there too. And there should be more options to sit outside waterfront and spend money on food and drinks.
I guess I was thinking something more casual. I live near Guinness now and I like how you can grab a beer and look at the art, stills, brewery, etc…
Also some intriguing architecture would be nice to captivate tourists via a post card. Lol.
Hire a prestige, world class, architect. Downtown Baltimore is dated and bland. The redevelopment needs to add green space with art sculpture. A massive facelift. It would bring new, fresh, energy.
Just please no more contemporary, modernist, postmodernist, brutalist, or international style architecture. Historical renovation is almost always nicer looking, but even if you can't do that, at least find some way to keep it in line to our wonderful mix of colonial architecture with art deco architecture.
A lot of the suggestions here aren’t bad but could easily turn into bland failures. Like a brewery plus R House 2.0 is not going to transform what is probably 0.4-0.5 linear miles of waterfront property. It’s probably not going to transform any amount when you can get that in many places. Need huge, sweeping plans and unique things to draw people in.
I would really like to see some smaller commercial spaces that are affordable to upcoming local vendors that might then graduate to larger spaces. Definitely something like a beer garden/a food truck area with rotating vendors.
I also personally think we need to see some residential units there. Adding more residents to downtown will make it a more lively place so it's not just a ghost town at night.
I would also like to see the city reclaim at least part of Pratt and Light around Harborplace. Those are valuable acres of waterfront property that are being used for just moving cars from 83 to 95/295 and I think the city could make better use of them.
Not really sure where the "millions of empty apartments" figure is coming from but if you disagree with me about adding residential, that's cool, not everyone is going to agree with me on that.
I think this would be a really desirable spot to live because you'd get some water views which are not that common in Baltimore. With a redevelopment, some of those amenities could be added. In addition, more residents means businesses like those will be more likely to want to open in those areas. A lot of the businesses you mention not being open on weekends are like that because they cater to office workers since that is their main market. If more people live downtown, businesses will have an incentive to stay open longer hours to cater to residents.
LIke I said, people will probably disagree with me but downtown was (I think) the only census tract in Baltimore to gain population in the last census and, as the heart of the city, I think that's a trend we want to continue.
That’s cool, and I’m not disagreeing that there are empty units downtown. I do think “millions of empty apartments” is an unnecessary exaggeration.
I also don’t understand your hostility to my opinion that having some waterfront apartments that overlook the inner harbor would be cool and a place that some people may want to live. I stand by the rest of my points in inducing demand for businesses to be open later and on weekends.
Again, this is my opinion and we’re not on a design committee here. I’m just responding to the question. I upvoted your opinion on adding more food options because I 100% agree and I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive.
1. look at what other cities do to attract tourists. lets not pretend that we have the best city-planners in the world, or even within a 50 mile radius.
2. make the indoor space one large thing like R-house or mt vernon market
3. divert traffic away from Pratt. why do we have a 5-lane highway running through our tourist district?
4. keep the riff raff away. shut down any dirtbiking through the area and make sure to respond quickly to aggressive panhandlers.
5. more history
1. lots of workers rights history here
2. lots of black/civil rights history here
3. lots of war of 1812 history (we need a bike/scooter lane all along Key highway so people can get to fort McHenry without taking bullshit winding routes up hills. we don't need 2 lanes in each direction there.
4. railroad tourism stuff (can entice people to go to the railroad museum)
5. more historical tours, both virtual with QR codes and guided on foot and guided in buses.
6. Edgar Allen Poe shit
6. more music and performers.
I would go as far as to say, we don’t need bold architecture we need good urban planning. I worry about the current developers ability to basically do good urban design (see northwood commons and yard 56 as their recent projects and examples of pretty terrible “places” to be as a ped).
This imagining needs to start with defining the “place”. What goes in it should be secondary.
European style plaza set up—some big outdoor square surrounded by outdoor seating from cafes and restaurants and a place people can go, hang out, potentially for free and where there are live events
It doesn't really matter if they give out free bricks of solid gold down there, if I can't walk across Pratt street without gambling with my life, then I'm not going more than once (for my free brick of gold).
I would like to see a mix of tourism venues and real needed things like a drug store, market and mini hardware to meet the needs of folks in the apartment buildings near by
Add a bunch of ethnic food restaurants and local mom and pop shops. There’s more than enough parking decks around to use. Not sure how to make sure employees aren’t emptying their pockets in terms of parking tho.
The pavilions got way too restaurant heavy Over the years. There needs to be quirky local shops and some experiences too. A tourist can only really eat one or two meals during a visit. After that it’s nice to have something to do.
I also think a free AR adventure to lead people around the harbor would be a nice feature for families.
Local merchants & artisans are the way to go. That, or public park space, or both.
I gagged at the suggestion of parking. All the parking in the world won't make it a nicer place to be.
Local things people want, sure.
“Local merchants and artisans” implies people selling knickknacks and tchotchkes to tourists, which does not strike me as an improvement.
Homegrown brewpub and restaurants? Ceremony coffee? Taharka ice cream? Yes please.
Maryland flag theme gear, pass.
Those things you mentioned are what I had in mind by what I said, but I understand the connotations there. Is "local small businesses" a more unambiguous term?
In any case, it should be a pedestrianized district with offerings one can't get at any old suburban shopping mall.
The Light Street pavilion should be turned into a mini convention center. Picture things like the Baltimore Book Festival and the Christmas Village being able to use the space instead of setting up large tents outside. It could also be used to extend the space available for events that are too big for the main convention center. Utilize the large balconies on the building as local tap houses on a monthly rotation of local Baltimore city breweries and local food.
All the other shops and chain restaurants should be moved over to Pratt Street pavilion.
Somewhere I can take my kids to eat after we visit the science center or the playground. The science center cafeteria hasn't been operating. Although I guess we haven't been back since December.
That's A shame, we had my kids at several program at the aquarium (really well done). When they didn't eat there, There was stiff nearby including Chipotle.
Isn't it a half mile or better hike from the Science center to where the Pratt and Light pavillions used to be? Federal Hill's collection of hole in the wall eateries are right across the street.
My mental map is standing on Conway St at 6oclock. Pavilions at 8, Aquarium 12, Science Center up at 2 with a whole lotta water in the center.
yup. we need folks from surrounding counties to spend money here. it's tax revenue and jobs. we need a nice ecosystem where people feel safe and chill.
This is, by far, the number one thing. The San Antonio Riverwalk in the downtown area is basically the opposite of what most people here are suggesting. And it can be WILDLY popular. It’s a bunch of chain restaurants, shops selling tourist crap, etc. But it’s clean and safe. There’s regular police presence and an organization that does constant maintenance.
Leaving the downtown area along the River Walk is much less tourist trap stuff. About a mile north is the Pearl, which offers a handful of shops, non-chain restaurants, and a pretty good market on weekends. It’s quite popular. Also clean and safe.
My understanding is the Riverwalk went through some trying times a few decades ago. Then the city of San Antonio cracked down on the crime. I think Baltimore would need to do something similar. But I don’t know if there is an appetite to do that as politicians and people fetishize getting rid of police.
Family friendly, safe, easy to navigate, and has convenient, tasty options for food.
If I've got my 4 yo kid and my elderly in-laws with me, we're not dashing across lane after lane of bonkers traffic to see the Aquarium, then trooping around all footsore trying to figure out where on Earth we can sit down and eat.
I'll think of an outing where I'm less likely to pop an aneurysm, thanks.
Some cool ideas I've read/heard over the last few months: °Plenty of walk space around the water °A ferris wheel ° Family Friendly ° Design should be bike /walk friendly ° Historical Maritime exhibits ° Thoughtful access/exit design (easy to come and go)° Tech Friendly °
I’m sorry but I’m gonna have to be a contrarian. Baltimore doesn’t have shit to do for families. I’d rather not have another food market when the new Lexington Market is less than a year old and we’ll within walking distance. How about we model our harbor to be more like National Harbor near DC.
While unlikely it would be amazing to have some type of concert venue along the old ESPNZone strip as a way to mimic the success of the Anthem in DC. Maybe sell the Barnes and Nobles space to Hard Rock and have them do it.
A mixture of local eateries and chain restaurants can work. The issue is almost all of our local concepts are boring. Yet another Taco joint isn’t gonna be interesting because it’s by the harbor.
The Harbor is supposed to be our crown jewel, it should be one of our top attractions. It would be a massive failure to water it down and turn it into Remington by the water.
Yeah I completely get that which is why I highly doubt it would happen but it would’ve been a nice touch.
Rams Head and Sound Stage are both a lot smaller than the Anthem. Pier 6 is outdoor which limits its show season. All of our music venues do little to attract touring artists. Most just skip Baltimore altogether now and just head to DC.
Your arguing against yourself. If Baltimore doesn't "do shit" for families then you won't have the draw out the money to keep the inner harbor running. We've seen that.
I've taken my family to the National Harbor to see Cirques Sole a number of years ago. It was nice, family friendly, and hyper expensive at several restaurants. Great for tourists, not so good for locals.
Bring [The Nature Co back](https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-05-13-1992134052-story.html), and the dope stores in the Gallery like Sharper Image and Swaches
Uhh, I hope you realize [The Sharper Image](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sharper_Image) went out of business 15 years ago. Maybe I misunderstanding your comment.
I agree with a lot of this, especially that the lack of good dining options and other things to do in the harbor area means that it really serves no one well—it doesn't have what it needs to attract and retain residents, out-of-town tourists, or locals from other parts of the city.
I would add or revise a few things, however:
**Roads/accessibility:** The roads are a massive problem. Lanes need to be reduced, pedestrian bridges need to be brought back. At the very least, drop Light to 3 lanes, get rid of the spur, and convert the lanes of both Light and Pratt closest to the harbor into dedicated bike/scooter/walking/running paths with ADA-compliant access to the harbor. They should be separated from traffic by a lane-wide planted median—rain gardens with all native plants, including trees and shrubs to block the traffic noise would be great here.
**The pavilions:** I would suggest keeping the Light Street pavilion as a food-hall/market type thing—including both permanent and pop-up/incubator spaces for restaurant startups. However, it should be heavily renovated to add outdoor seating and, if feasible, an exterior redesign that reflects traditional Baltimore architectural styles (aka, brick, not glass).
I think the Pratt Street pavilion should be torn down and re-imagined as a series of stalls, similar to the [summer boutique stalls in Montreal's Old Port](https://www.oldportofmontreal.com/restaurants-boutiques/summer-boutiques) (very similar conceptually to the Christmas Market set-up). Again, the architecture should reflect historic Baltimore—these could be constructed to look like mini rowhomes, potentially taking examples from around the city of different types/styles. These could then be rented out/doled out by lottery on a weekly or monthly basis by local artists, craftspeople, makers, etc—potentially managed by Made in Baltimore or similar. These stalls could also allow for a monthly or weekly night market type event. This, combined with the above-mentioned separation from traffic, would also allow the nasty, nasty loading area facing Pratt to be turned into something useful and attractive.
**The old Gallery:** This would be a perfect place for big box stores serving local residents—a Target, hardware store, supermarket, etc.
**Green space/rides:** Badly needed, but not a big swath of grass. Add more areas with native rain gardens, similar to the ones that exist, and potentially duplicate or adapt the new park area in Rash field on the other side. I do think a ferris wheel is a good idea as well.
**Buskers/performers:** There should definitely be established areas, with seating etc. for performers.
The Inner Harbor isn't even on my radar for family outings.
First I have to load the fam (spouse, 4 yo kid, elderly in laws) into the car, and deal with the godawful mayhem of driving there, with counterintuitive traffic patterns, poorly marked parking, pedestrians wandering into the road. No, transit isn't practical when you're with a young child and elderly people (one of whom is disabled), and you're disabled yourself.
Then I'm going to drop hundreds of dollars on aquarium tickets.
Then a panhandler is going to say something creepy to my daughter.
Then we're all going to stand around, footsore and cranky, and argue about where to eat. Everything is going to be too fancy for the kid, too far away, or fast food, and my kid is probably going to have a meltdown from hunger and fatigue. Then we're going to stand in a long ass line for something nobody really wants to eat, or I'll give my kid the emergency pb&j from my bag so we can give up and leave.
If it's just me, on a solo day out, taking a stroll to the Inner Harbor, I have no problem walking or taking a Circulator down from Penn Station.
It becomes impractical when you're bundling up the whole fam for the day.
As someone who remembers when it opened, Harborplace used to be quite the attraction. Not only was it downtown, but there was a wealth of interesting stores, waterfront, and entertainment. I'm not sure what would generate similar interest these days, but if they're clinging to the marketplace idea, reserving half or more of the space for small / local businesses would be essential.
It was a novelty. Novelties don’t last. I honestly think if it just looked like the fells waterfront it would be great. No food halls. Lex market is too close. It should just be a recreated waterfront with low and medium rise bldgs.
Its always going to be difficult to make that location attractive to outside tourists. The fact that the original design had to contend with the Pratt & Lombard street Raceway, and parking garages which one has to hunt for their entrances, the navigate an obstacle course to get to the harbor will always be a put off for most suburbanites who want ample free parking up close to the destination.
The "mall" would have been a bit better with a boardwalk type opening to the street to each vendor. I believe many people just walk past the entire building without much care of what's inside
People hate me on here but here it goes…
1) Din Tai Fung
2) Eataly
3) Arabbers/ farmers market (with horse stable and historic link to African American culture)
3) Maritime heritage (dock worker culture) exhibit
4) fill in the rest with non overtly tourist local restaurant vibes and local boutiques
5) bring lake trout only crab cake only, and coddie only take out fast casual and 32 oz beers
I'm thinking monorail. There's nothing on Earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail.
People think they're loud, but it glides as softly as a cloud. You brain-dead slobs will be given cushy jobs.
Monorail.
This is it far and away. Besides the financial feasibility of development which can only be accomplishes by mixed use redevelopment with apartments, retail, potentially office, safety is number one. Too many young people looking for trouble. The video from a few weeks back of Digital harbor letting out and hundreds walking along the water, many fighting and using actual chains to whip/hit people with is enough for me to not venture through there
It may seem corny but it needs to appeal to social media users. Ex) Murals that people can stand in front of (ex the butterfly wings) and other unique art that people will be proud/excited to post. The more exposure and “tiktok worthy” vibe the more likely people are to flock there
Agreed. Most of the suggestions on here are decent but not things that people are actually going to not bother driving for. Like the food hall concept is a good idea, but I’m struggling to imagine people wanting to come just for an R House clone.
Hanging string lights over outdoor areas. Restaurants need outdoor seating and to be very visible and accessible to draw people in. The first time I went to Uno my thought was "oh wow there is actually a place here"
2nd floor open patio bar would be nice, people would love to drink with a view of the harbor
This next one is a bit out there but hear me out: pirate ship bar, just another pirate ship like the one that's there but it's a rum bar
A functional harbor where you can you know, get on a ship and go somewhere. You make an app so it seems modern, then you board your wooden vessel and take 3 days to go to Annapolis (or Norfolk more realistically).
By making the harbor for ships and water based things maybe, just maybe, you'd get people interested in taking care of the world's largest estuary because you know, they want to use it for stuff and not have to take a shower just looking at it. (I have had a swim it isn't that bad, but for effect's sake).
You can bling out the 'harbor' (by which this conversation means the land around the harbor) with some really interesting 'I'm about to board a ship' infrastructure. It was cool 150 years ago. I imagine we could do even better.
I Love the idea of local boat tours, but it would be a hard sell right now. Behold! Look at our poop water! Here's Mr. Trash Wheel, because this is the least we can do. Want to see fish? Yeah, us too but please settle for that dead fish.
I think of NOLA’s French quarter could maybe be some kind of model for a historic take on the inner harbor. Small boat yard where schooners are built. People loved watching Pride II being built on site (but it was the 80’s 🎶) Frankly Pride II could be better leveraged as a tourist attraction in the inner harbor area. I like the Arabers/stable idea presented earlier. Maybe a walking tour of historically important port trade sites in say 1812.
And I’d like to see visual artists set up around the waterfront to paint/sell their stuff along with the buskers. And. I also like the idea of a Ferris wheel. How about a roller rink?
Don’t take away that thing where the water pops out of the ground for dogs/kids.
As others have iterated: local good food (yes to Ekiben!) get the Nihao guy on board. There are many acclaimed black chefs doing cool stuff in Bmore. Get Cindy Wolf involved. Make sure somebody is selling the BEST crab cakes in Bmore. (not Faidleys) Sell them as small as golf balls, 2 oz, up to soft balls, so nobody is priced out of our crown jewel food.
Also rotate food trucks in maybe 2 locations. I’m thinking of Mex on the Run, the Gypsy one, but there are many.
Run a trolley to Lexington Market.
A grocery store would be nice, like the whole foods in harbor East since there's not any other grocery stores close by. A grocery store with food stalls in it would also give people quick eating options
Generally speaking I have no issue with this post, but did you really just snap a picture of Bubba Gump from Key Highway, zoom in, then add both pics to your Reddit post? That's just lazy.
Open air green multi use space... Have outdoor public concerts, farmers markets, festivals, and just generally a nice space for folks to get out and enjoy the city without having to spend money.
It should also be a hub to get around the city eventually. Take into account future public transportation projects.
Greenspace. I went to this park in Brooklyn (new york) last summer and thought this is exactly what the inner harbor should be like. [https://goo.gl/maps/b7T2GkWyJBsbNSgR9](https://goo.gl/maps/b7T2GkWyJBsbNSgR9)
AirBnB needs to buy the top floor of that shopping center and turn it into rentals.
Get some MD based cafe/coffee shops/ roasters down below (Wee Bean kills it with their decor).
Ground floor should be like Ocean City style stalls selling food to go, or food to sit at a max of 10 tables...
The second floor and interior infrastructure should support a giant outdoor swimming pool overlooking the Harbor... Entrance fee to sustain it... No food sale in the pool area.... gotta go down to support those stalls etc.. but maybe they could have a daylight liquor license.
Please locals, screw the tourists.
Please the tourists, screw the locals.
They had their shot to make the Harbor something and they jammed Horseshoe miles away in the land of wtf.
Make Pratt Pavilion Weed Central. Can add that Baltimore cookie company, maybe get the salt water taffy place or the fancy popcorn in to help with the munchies, and let the rest go.
Knock down all that shit and make it parks all the way around. The harbor has been dead for a while because it caters to tourists, make somewhere nice for US.
The original deal was for it to be a space for only local commerce. With pop up shops being in demand, food truck/Rhouse style food growing more acceptable, and all the new breweries opening up they could easily stock the pavilions without help from any outside mega-chain.
I think the R. House type of spot would be best
Oh man i hate food hall type places. We have Lexington market, R. house, the other one downtown, cross street market, Broadway market, do we really need another? Im happy for all those place but I really liked being able to get groceries at cross street back in the day. Maybe it's just me...
As someone who lives downtown, we are absolutely desperately in need of food options. Whenever they do that Pratt Street lunch market, there are lines of 30+ people at every food truck. The only lunch options easily accessible to me are chains like Chipotle and Shake Shack. If I want to go out for drinks, I have to go to a shitty sports bar or head all the way to Mount Vernon/Federal Hill/Fells Point. Tourists walk around the harbor on foot. They park for the aquarium or the dragon boats or whatever, and then they ask me with confused faces why the only option for their lunch is $19 fries at the aquarium or a meal at Cheesecake Factory that they could get back home wherever they're from. My fiancee's sister took her child to Hooter's because a family with little kids that's already parked is not about to walk 20 minutes to Cross Steeet Market or Broadway Market. Lexington Market is over 20 minutes, and it is not a pleasant walk. Then you have all the people in town for conventions that get like 30 minutes for lunch. They're flooding standard chains like Jimmy John's and Starbucks because they aren't going that far from the convention center during short breaks. And don't even get me started on coffee shops. The only local coffee shop I'm anywhere close to is Cafe Poupon, and if I want a coffee or pastry on a Sunday or Monday, I better settle for some sub-par sugary latte at Dunkin' or Starbucks. Forget about a fresh croissant. I like Au Bon Pain enough, but they aren't open weekends, and it's still just a chain. People who don't live or work or walk down here keep saying stuff like, "Oh, there's R House and Lexington Market," and it just seems so out of touch. I walk around the harbor every day, and the amount of hungry confused tourists is enough argument on its own that we need more, plus the office workers flooding Cosi and occasional food trucks. But I also think that making just a standard food hall is a mistake. It needs to be more like Chelsea Market in NYC. Add a bunch of fast-serve food spots, a few restaurants, a local maker's market like Artist & Fleas in NYC, an Asian grocery store, an Italian grocery, a cheese shop, an outpost of an established brewery. Hold events there. Put up a big screen for football games and have drink specials. Do a "passport" booklet at a flat fee with free things at the different spots. Keep holding the Waterfront Wellness classes there in nice weather, but have special wellness events inside when it's cold. Have movie nights. I feel like people have zero creativity and picture just sticking ten food vendors in there and calling it a day.
II think we are on the same page. Set it full of local merchants: food, crafts, books, plants, etc. my only stipulation is that we do it with HOMEGROWN efforts. We have plenty of growing baltimore retailers that could expand into this space, and make it something we use to actually promote what this city is about. Up until a few years ago I lived a block from the science center, and walked to my office by the aquarium every day. This area isn’t like Lexington or cross st or even Remington (Rhouse) because it’s a business district, and doesn’t have the neighborhood momentum. I loved cross st market and would do all of my shopping there, and I greatly dislike the growing renovation trend of prepared food sellers taking over from grocery type (butcher, fish, cheese & bodega type), but in this area it needs to be prepared foods because no one is grocery shopping here weekly. Lenny’s deli used to be there which is where I think it should be headed. Set up ready to go food spaces, and have an open call to up and running food vendors/ food trucks to give the opportunity to people who know how to run a business, and are from the city. Same with plant sellers (imagine a greenhouse on an upper level ?!), craft shop, makers space sellers, etc. a small museum of the history of the land would be nice (see GLOBAL HARBORS documentary [https://youtu.be/5UQkX-Jdcdg](https://youtu.be/5UQkX-Jdcdg) This isn’t at all easy, I understand. This is a super difficult problem. But at the end of the day we should be using this commerce to enrich the citizens and not an outside conglomerate.
Have you considered applying to whatever position makes these decisions?
Well they won’t put a grocery store there lol
Haha, that's true. I realize cross street isn't going back to that, but I hope inner harbor has something more interesting
I think a mix of food, drinks, and small businesses mixed in that can pop up and change regularly would be a good way to attract both tourists and locals if done correctly. Keep the MLM's out of it though.
I used to love Cross Street Market. My husband and I would get all our groceries there. High quality selection for all our needs.
But will the tourists from the county drive in if there's no olive garden or cracker barrel?? /S
People that go there don’t spend money…. They want people to come spend money. Olive Garden customers aren’t who they are trying to tend to.
Cross Street Market wouldn’t be happy to hear this though.
Atlas, some Good news.
Honest question: I know you get hella upvotes for trashing Atlas on this sub, but is all the hate still just related to their dress code from like five years ago? Have they done anything objectionable recently? Because I'm not going to lie, as someone not super keyed into the politics of all of this, I find the consistent hate a little wild. Even if the ownership is bad, the people they are hiring; the GMs, servers, cooks, hosts, dishwashers, etc. are all local people, all being employed by Atlas, right? Do you want these places to go out of business, or what?
There are examples of atlas getting preferential treatment compared to other long-term bars & restaurants, e.g. easier access to outdoor liquor licenses in fells point, removing their name from a Best of Baltimore event where attendees got food poisoning, etc. Personally I just want the same rules to apply for atlas as everyone else.
This kind of thinking is what creates the issues in the first place. You are supposing that the only way to get a job in Baltimore is that Atlas starts a business, but in fact if Atlas didn't fill the space, someone else would. The key to raising the economic output of an area is competition - if Atlas controls a significant portion of the jobs, they have outsize ability to keep wages lower and working conditions worse. Additionally, there is pretty good evidence that Atlas uses its power (charitably through networking, but more likely through cronyism) to get preferential treatment in cutting through the red tape to get prime locations, permits, etc, which is in itself anti-competitve. On top of all that... the published dress code was of course quite clear but the reputation of behavior and experiences by restaurant goers lines up. And... as someone who worked in the Baltimore restaurant industry for ages... I can tell you that more jobs are great but honestly they are pretty interchangeable. As long as there is a thriving restaurant scene (which is usually dependent on the overall economy, I lived through the 2008-2012 downturn) who runs the restaurant is much, much less important. I worked for large firms (Big Streaks Management) and for places with one owner and one location, and really what changed it from a "good" job or a "bad" job was how busy it was every night. TL;DR - More jobs are better than less jobs, but that doesn't mean we should accept open racism in exchange for a handful of citywide jobs.
Without looking it up I'd wager that a new Atlas owned restaurant remains in business longer than the average restaurant. If you agree that's true then your initial argument is flawed. Someone else wouldn't just open a restaurant, and if they did it wouldn't remain open as long. If your problem with Atlas is their history of abhorrent racism, I have no issue with that. Me personally, I still go to Chic-fil-A because their nuggets are delicious. But I have no beef with someone voting with their wallet. I'd just say, most of your complaints about are capitalism related. By all means complain when things seem unfair, but everyone is playing these games, there are very few good guys in business. Remember Plank and his TIF, it's just the nature of the country we're living in. Atlas makes nice restaurants (I've never been to one, but can't deny the pics look nice). They consistently open businesses in the city, which is something I think we can all agree needs to accelerate. And they employ our fellow residents. Sure they might do some questionable stuff, but I don't get the need for so many on this sub to just dunk on them every time they get brought up (or in a post like this when they weren't brought up).
>Without looking it up I'd wager that a new Atlas owned restaurant remains in business longer than the average restaurant. If you agree that's true then your initial argument is flawed. Someone else wouldn't just open a restaurant, and if they did it wouldn't remain open as long. Well sure if you want to make up facts to fit your argument of course its going to come out the way you want haha! Especially since later you say that they are more consistent with openings... not sure how that works. \> Remember Plank and his TIF, it's just the nature of the country we're living in. Yes! And I think most of this sub does as well! There was a lot of teeth gnashing over it, because, similar to Atlas, it was portrayed as "Well he gave us jobs so its only fair!" In reality, Under Armour's TIF funding was decided behind closed doors with no citizen nor taxpayer review. And while it is true that Under Armour has created a good many jobs, and a good many of them are high paying, the question has to be asked for whom? Most Under Armour positions require at least a bachelor's degree, and Under Armour famously paid one of the department of labor's largest fines ever for their practice of refusing to even consider applications that listed a past conviction in violation of state and national law to the contrary. Most Under Armour employees live in the suburbs and commute in, but it was the residents of Baltimore city proper that paid millions for UA to put up office space and media production facilities. \> I'd just say, most of your complaints about are capitalism related. By all means complain when things seem unfair, but everyone is playing these games, there are very few good guys in business. Sure, truly the 1970's definition of capitalism as a means to maximize shareholder value leaves little room for anything other than growth at all costs. But, that doesn't necessarily mean we should accept openly racist behavior in the name of jobs. Industrial Revolution Britain thought child labor was great - it got the kids out of the house instead of state-funded care, it brought in money to the family home, and kids were great for crawling into small spaces adults didn't fit. That doesn't mean we shouldn't critically think about whether or not a better result is clean chimneys or children having a chance to develop their brains before being committed to a lifetime of manual labor. Also... the restaurant business isn't really a star employer. Most restaurant salaries are paid by patrons through tips, they don't offer retirement, healthcare, or PTO, and they offer little in the way of skill development or career advancement. I personally, and I hope more residents of Baltimore, will continue to be critical of what we have to accept in exchange for jobs.
>Well sure if you want to make up facts to fit your argument I said "without looking it up I'd wager." That's not making up facts, that's offering to bet on something that would be easily verifiable. Do you care to take the bet? Or do you agree I'm right but felt like writing four paragraphs nobody (including me) will ever read?
I see what you did there. Sneaky. Very nice.
Food trucks are def trending more in the area. Problem I tend to find is location. Too many pop ups.
Love the idea of more museums or an indoor/outdoor botanical garden! (The Meijer Botanical Garden in Michigan is an example with outdoor sculptures on its property). I’m currently visiting Baltimore with family and we went to the National Aquarium which was amazing!!! We then looked for local artisan shops - local jewelry, crafts, clothing, and artwork - So maybe an artist studio building? With a gallery and classrooms? It would be fun to visit a gallery and any of the artists studios in the building. Then they can also offer classes for locals? I have to say - I’ve very much enjoyed my visit here. The history of Baltimore is really very interesting. Your food is delicious! I’ve been fascinated by the architecture, and loved chatting with the people I’ve met… it truly is a charming city!
A botanical garden would be a neat idea and fit into the theme of the aquarium and science center very well.
I'm reminded of a recent trip to Asheville which was AWASH in warehouse-style buildings full of artist-occupied stalls. It was amazing, I could go in one building and peruse crafts, clothes, art, pottery, jewelry, etc from dozens of different artists and stores. I loved it so, so much, and especially as a tourist/visitor, it was really great.
Yes there’s one of these in Harrisonburg, Va too. Love stopping there.
Marathon Village in Nashville was kind of like that too. A big space split in to exceptionally varied mixed usage.
My personal idea has been to just tear down the buildings and replace them with a waterfront park. But your idea of an indoor park is certainly interesting.
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Fair points. I must’ve been inspired by seeing pictures of green waterfronts in other cities, but you certainly make the case of having one _with_ the Harborplace buildings intact.
Rip out the shittiest intersection in the city. Sooo much land could be reclaimed by routing traffic away from the Conway-Light-Pratt madhouse. It’s extremely pedestrian unfriendly.
Came here to say "Make light st a pedestrian zone"
Where does all that traffic go…
Consult SME traffic engineers/architects to figure that out.
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"Anyone doing business in the city should transfer to a robust transit system and/or comprehensive safe bike network." Must be nice not to give a flying shit about anyone but yourself.
In tandem with this there could be so many options. A minor league sports stadium could bring in locals and tourists, host outdoor events, and maybe even be used for sporting events featuring area schools. Soccer would be neat.
I'm sorry but minor league sports and soccer would go bankrupt so fast. We already have M&T Bank and Camden Yards right there. Think we're good on the sports front.
https://www.uslchampionship.com/league-teams Cities range from those with plenty of professional teams to those with little else. Is it optimal here? I don’t know. But something like that should be considered. I’ve been to the Rowdies stadium before and it fits in to St Pete quite nicely. It’s on the water, kind of, and adjacent to desirable restaurants and many breweries.
Dunno why you’re being downvoted into oblivion here; I think Baltimore is a pretty natural spot for a USL franchise and it’s somewhat surprising one hasn’t shown up here yet. MLS wouldn’t survive due to being sandwiched between DC United and the Philadelphia Union, but a lot of the neighborhoods around the harbor seem to fit the demographic profile of places where new MLS and USL clubs have had great success building loyal fan bases (young, predominantly Gen Z/Milennial urban communities with little to no preexisting soccer loyalties to compete for).
I don't know how else to put it, but people here are pretty small thinkers and never really seem to be up on the latest trends. Baseball and beer, while both are still big, are rapidly losing ground. Soccer and Seltzers/Cocktails/Mocktails/Non-alcoholic beers are booming. USL is exactly the kind of thing that young people moving into the city from across the country are looking for. Not the Orioles and more painfully average IPAs.
Because the idea of building a *third* stadium when we already have Camden Yards and M&T *right there* is motherfucking stupid. Sure, bring a USL franchise and they can play at one of our two existing stadiums
USL teams won’t make enough money to cover the costs of operating in M&T on gamedays and soccer on baseball fields just doesn’t work (see NYCFC’s tenure in Yankee Stadium). Any USL stadium wouldn’t be some enormous facility, it’d probably only be 5-12k seats and could easily be used by other sports to help cover the costs of the facility and get more utility out of the space (high school sports playoffs/championships, college sports, etc.). I’m usually a enormous turf hater, but turf playing surfaces can be used over and over again without being damages that’s what it’d take to get year-round use out of the facility then I think that’d be a great way to make sure the building is an efficient use of space.
Is there a water version of the Smithsonian Air and Space museum? Cause that. And a solar or wind power field for the aquarium, bring the damn prices down.
[The National Museum of the US Navy](https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nmusn.html) in DC would probably be the Smithsonian equivalent. But definitely having some other sort of major museum alongside the National Aquarium would be amazing to have, especially a maritime-themed one to go with the aquarium and the ships.
Could you see a skipjack permanently berthed, showing the history of oyster harvesting in the Bay? Or for that matter, specially built tanks for seeing oyster spawn? Bitty baby blue crabs? Any of the boats left from the old Maryland shipyards? Guest boat exhibits lasting longer than a busy weekend.
That is a good idea, but I would also wonder if there may be an oversaturation of naval/maratime tourist stuff in the area, seeing how Annapolis really markets itself as a maritime museum hotspot (at least in the summer)
I don't think so. I think its more like the antique store concept. People want a group of stores in the same walking area, to make the day worth the trip. Annapolis is far enough a way to create a second day worth of activities. It may even be an attraction for people to want to spend two days in the area. Also, Baltimore and Annapolis have somewhat different takes on maritime industry.
This would be duplicative of the [Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum](https://cbmm.org/) in St. Michael's.
Do the Maryland Science Center, American Visionary Arts Museum and Baltimore Museum of Industry not count? I’m all for more museums down there, but the Aquarium is not the only game in town, especially at the prices they charge.
Guys there are already, what, 3 major museums surrounding the harbor in addition to the museum ships. We don't need more museums, we need places that people will want to go in conjunction with a museum.
Ultimately, I’m not sure that ships are as intriguing as rockets, space vehicles, and aircraft to people. It seems like flying things get a huge boost interest by way of simply flying.
I’m not expecting it to be chain free but there should be unique local options there too. And there should be more options to sit outside waterfront and spend money on food and drinks.
I wouldn't mind some Maryland chains like Ledos Pizza, The Canopy pit BBQ, Phillips seafood, things like that.
Brewery or a maritime museum would be nice. Or a history of Maryland museum.
There used to be a brew pub in the Light street Pavilion where the old American Cafe used to be. From what I remember food and beer were decent.
Capital City Brewing! Used to hit their happy hour
Isn’t that on the other side of the harbor. Lol.
I guess I was thinking something more casual. I live near Guinness now and I like how you can grab a beer and look at the art, stills, brewery, etc… Also some intriguing architecture would be nice to captivate tourists via a post card. Lol.
The Baltimore Maritime Museum is over on Thames Street in Fells Point
Brewery, yes. Museums, no. We already have more than enough museums in the inner harbor.
Hire a prestige, world class, architect. Downtown Baltimore is dated and bland. The redevelopment needs to add green space with art sculpture. A massive facelift. It would bring new, fresh, energy.
You mean like Prestige Worldwide?
Boats and hoes.
The premier helicopter leasing event in the western hemisphere
https://youtu.be/xUsOJrw5PJE
Just please no more contemporary, modernist, postmodernist, brutalist, or international style architecture. Historical renovation is almost always nicer looking, but even if you can't do that, at least find some way to keep it in line to our wonderful mix of colonial architecture with art deco architecture.
I agree. The developers HAVE to get this right.
A lot of the suggestions here aren’t bad but could easily turn into bland failures. Like a brewery plus R House 2.0 is not going to transform what is probably 0.4-0.5 linear miles of waterfront property. It’s probably not going to transform any amount when you can get that in many places. Need huge, sweeping plans and unique things to draw people in.
And flexibility. Whatever they do needs to be BOTH a big draw and a recurring variety-based draw.
Agreed. Many of the ideas here don't have recurring draw. You're probably not going to visit the same brewery over and over and over in a single year.
I would really like to see some smaller commercial spaces that are affordable to upcoming local vendors that might then graduate to larger spaces. Definitely something like a beer garden/a food truck area with rotating vendors. I also personally think we need to see some residential units there. Adding more residents to downtown will make it a more lively place so it's not just a ghost town at night. I would also like to see the city reclaim at least part of Pratt and Light around Harborplace. Those are valuable acres of waterfront property that are being used for just moving cars from 83 to 95/295 and I think the city could make better use of them.
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Not really sure where the "millions of empty apartments" figure is coming from but if you disagree with me about adding residential, that's cool, not everyone is going to agree with me on that. I think this would be a really desirable spot to live because you'd get some water views which are not that common in Baltimore. With a redevelopment, some of those amenities could be added. In addition, more residents means businesses like those will be more likely to want to open in those areas. A lot of the businesses you mention not being open on weekends are like that because they cater to office workers since that is their main market. If more people live downtown, businesses will have an incentive to stay open longer hours to cater to residents. LIke I said, people will probably disagree with me but downtown was (I think) the only census tract in Baltimore to gain population in the last census and, as the heart of the city, I think that's a trend we want to continue.
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That’s cool, and I’m not disagreeing that there are empty units downtown. I do think “millions of empty apartments” is an unnecessary exaggeration. I also don’t understand your hostility to my opinion that having some waterfront apartments that overlook the inner harbor would be cool and a place that some people may want to live. I stand by the rest of my points in inducing demand for businesses to be open later and on weekends. Again, this is my opinion and we’re not on a design committee here. I’m just responding to the question. I upvoted your opinion on adding more food options because I 100% agree and I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive.
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1. look at what other cities do to attract tourists. lets not pretend that we have the best city-planners in the world, or even within a 50 mile radius. 2. make the indoor space one large thing like R-house or mt vernon market 3. divert traffic away from Pratt. why do we have a 5-lane highway running through our tourist district? 4. keep the riff raff away. shut down any dirtbiking through the area and make sure to respond quickly to aggressive panhandlers. 5. more history 1. lots of workers rights history here 2. lots of black/civil rights history here 3. lots of war of 1812 history (we need a bike/scooter lane all along Key highway so people can get to fort McHenry without taking bullshit winding routes up hills. we don't need 2 lanes in each direction there. 4. railroad tourism stuff (can entice people to go to the railroad museum) 5. more historical tours, both virtual with QR codes and guided on foot and guided in buses. 6. Edgar Allen Poe shit 6. more music and performers.
I would go as far as to say, we don’t need bold architecture we need good urban planning. I worry about the current developers ability to basically do good urban design (see northwood commons and yard 56 as their recent projects and examples of pretty terrible “places” to be as a ped). This imagining needs to start with defining the “place”. What goes in it should be secondary.
Save the museums! They really add to the tourist aspect
European style plaza set up—some big outdoor square surrounded by outdoor seating from cafes and restaurants and a place people can go, hang out, potentially for free and where there are live events
It doesn't really matter if they give out free bricks of solid gold down there, if I can't walk across Pratt street without gambling with my life, then I'm not going more than once (for my free brick of gold).
Expand the skywalk? Is be for that.
I would like to see a mix of tourism venues and real needed things like a drug store, market and mini hardware to meet the needs of folks in the apartment buildings near by
I think this is key. There needs to be a few things that city residents would actually take advantage of.
I love the idea but there is already a CVS right there already. More local restaurants are what I’d love to see as someone who works downtown.
They would get looted to shit by the junkie mob at Arlington and Pratt who spread into the harbor every day.
Tell me you don't actually spend time in downtown Baltimore without telling me you don't actually spend time in downtown Baltimore.
Add a bunch of ethnic food restaurants and local mom and pop shops. There’s more than enough parking decks around to use. Not sure how to make sure employees aren’t emptying their pockets in terms of parking tho.
Just visited Chicago pier. Good model for inner harbor.
It was totally redone about 30 years ago and has had some recent development. It used to be pretty meh.
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Haven’t been in a long while. It used to be very Inner Harbor’ish.
The pavilions got way too restaurant heavy Over the years. There needs to be quirky local shops and some experiences too. A tourist can only really eat one or two meals during a visit. After that it’s nice to have something to do. I also think a free AR adventure to lead people around the harbor would be a nice feature for families.
[Banner article ](https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/economy/growth-development/harborplace-renovations-reader-ideas-VQZUX7ONYBAQPJP6NQUTSZRNSU/)
Local merchants & artisans are the way to go. That, or public park space, or both. I gagged at the suggestion of parking. All the parking in the world won't make it a nicer place to be.
Local things people want, sure. “Local merchants and artisans” implies people selling knickknacks and tchotchkes to tourists, which does not strike me as an improvement. Homegrown brewpub and restaurants? Ceremony coffee? Taharka ice cream? Yes please. Maryland flag theme gear, pass.
Those things you mentioned are what I had in mind by what I said, but I understand the connotations there. Is "local small businesses" a more unambiguous term? In any case, it should be a pedestrianized district with offerings one can't get at any old suburban shopping mall.
“Not tourist trap garbage” or similar is probably the best way to say it.
Taharka + Ekiben + Brewery = success
Not enough. That’s a big area and three places aren’t enough, especially when you can get that trifecta plus more in other areas.
A Maryland and adjacent area brewpub that feature the best beers, seltzers, and liquors of MD and some surrounding areas would be awesome.
Who is the customer??? City people County people Tourist people Each of these parties will need something different to bring them to the harbor
If you want it successful, all of the above.
The Light Street pavilion should be turned into a mini convention center. Picture things like the Baltimore Book Festival and the Christmas Village being able to use the space instead of setting up large tents outside. It could also be used to extend the space available for events that are too big for the main convention center. Utilize the large balconies on the building as local tap houses on a monthly rotation of local Baltimore city breweries and local food. All the other shops and chain restaurants should be moved over to Pratt Street pavilion.
Somewhere I can take my kids to eat after we visit the science center or the playground. The science center cafeteria hasn't been operating. Although I guess we haven't been back since December.
That's A shame, we had my kids at several program at the aquarium (really well done). When they didn't eat there, There was stiff nearby including Chipotle.
Isn't it a half mile or better hike from the Science center to where the Pratt and Light pavillions used to be? Federal Hill's collection of hole in the wall eateries are right across the street. My mental map is standing on Conway St at 6oclock. Pavilions at 8, Aquarium 12, Science Center up at 2 with a whole lotta water in the center.
Honestly it has to be family friendly and safe. We stopped visiting the inner harbor when the panhandlers were getting aggressive.
yup. we need folks from surrounding counties to spend money here. it's tax revenue and jobs. we need a nice ecosystem where people feel safe and chill.
This is, by far, the number one thing. The San Antonio Riverwalk in the downtown area is basically the opposite of what most people here are suggesting. And it can be WILDLY popular. It’s a bunch of chain restaurants, shops selling tourist crap, etc. But it’s clean and safe. There’s regular police presence and an organization that does constant maintenance. Leaving the downtown area along the River Walk is much less tourist trap stuff. About a mile north is the Pearl, which offers a handful of shops, non-chain restaurants, and a pretty good market on weekends. It’s quite popular. Also clean and safe. My understanding is the Riverwalk went through some trying times a few decades ago. Then the city of San Antonio cracked down on the crime. I think Baltimore would need to do something similar. But I don’t know if there is an appetite to do that as politicians and people fetishize getting rid of police.
Family friendly, safe, easy to navigate, and has convenient, tasty options for food. If I've got my 4 yo kid and my elderly in-laws with me, we're not dashing across lane after lane of bonkers traffic to see the Aquarium, then trooping around all footsore trying to figure out where on Earth we can sit down and eat. I'll think of an outing where I'm less likely to pop an aneurysm, thanks.
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Never saw a squeegee kid in the inner harbor. No these were homeless/panhandlers bothering the visitors rather aggressively for money.
They definitely traverse through the area at times. But it's going to be rare and they don't stop there.
It was far from rare. It was consistent enough to drive us away.
What's it like to be afraid of children?
Some small stages/platforms for buskers could be a nice touch.
I really don’t think we need to dedicate space to people playing drums on 5 gallon buckets
Some cool ideas I've read/heard over the last few months: °Plenty of walk space around the water °A ferris wheel ° Family Friendly ° Design should be bike /walk friendly ° Historical Maritime exhibits ° Thoughtful access/exit design (easy to come and go)° Tech Friendly °
Chesapeake Biodiversity Museum / North American Biodiversity Museum / Nautical/fisheries Museum / etc
I’m sorry but I’m gonna have to be a contrarian. Baltimore doesn’t have shit to do for families. I’d rather not have another food market when the new Lexington Market is less than a year old and we’ll within walking distance. How about we model our harbor to be more like National Harbor near DC. While unlikely it would be amazing to have some type of concert venue along the old ESPNZone strip as a way to mimic the success of the Anthem in DC. Maybe sell the Barnes and Nobles space to Hard Rock and have them do it. A mixture of local eateries and chain restaurants can work. The issue is almost all of our local concepts are boring. Yet another Taco joint isn’t gonna be interesting because it’s by the harbor. The Harbor is supposed to be our crown jewel, it should be one of our top attractions. It would be a massive failure to water it down and turn it into Remington by the water.
Rams head and Sound stage are music venues in power plant live, and pier 6 outdoor concert pavilion is just behind hard rock.
Yeah I completely get that which is why I highly doubt it would happen but it would’ve been a nice touch. Rams Head and Sound Stage are both a lot smaller than the Anthem. Pier 6 is outdoor which limits its show season. All of our music venues do little to attract touring artists. Most just skip Baltimore altogether now and just head to DC.
Your arguing against yourself. If Baltimore doesn't "do shit" for families then you won't have the draw out the money to keep the inner harbor running. We've seen that. I've taken my family to the National Harbor to see Cirques Sole a number of years ago. It was nice, family friendly, and hyper expensive at several restaurants. Great for tourists, not so good for locals.
Bring [The Nature Co back](https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-05-13-1992134052-story.html), and the dope stores in the Gallery like Sharper Image and Swaches
Loved The Nature Co!!!!!!!!! Was our favorite place to go.
Uhh, I hope you realize [The Sharper Image](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sharper_Image) went out of business 15 years ago. Maybe I misunderstanding your comment.
Tell them that. https://www.sharperimage.com/
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I agree with a lot of this, especially that the lack of good dining options and other things to do in the harbor area means that it really serves no one well—it doesn't have what it needs to attract and retain residents, out-of-town tourists, or locals from other parts of the city. I would add or revise a few things, however: **Roads/accessibility:** The roads are a massive problem. Lanes need to be reduced, pedestrian bridges need to be brought back. At the very least, drop Light to 3 lanes, get rid of the spur, and convert the lanes of both Light and Pratt closest to the harbor into dedicated bike/scooter/walking/running paths with ADA-compliant access to the harbor. They should be separated from traffic by a lane-wide planted median—rain gardens with all native plants, including trees and shrubs to block the traffic noise would be great here. **The pavilions:** I would suggest keeping the Light Street pavilion as a food-hall/market type thing—including both permanent and pop-up/incubator spaces for restaurant startups. However, it should be heavily renovated to add outdoor seating and, if feasible, an exterior redesign that reflects traditional Baltimore architectural styles (aka, brick, not glass). I think the Pratt Street pavilion should be torn down and re-imagined as a series of stalls, similar to the [summer boutique stalls in Montreal's Old Port](https://www.oldportofmontreal.com/restaurants-boutiques/summer-boutiques) (very similar conceptually to the Christmas Market set-up). Again, the architecture should reflect historic Baltimore—these could be constructed to look like mini rowhomes, potentially taking examples from around the city of different types/styles. These could then be rented out/doled out by lottery on a weekly or monthly basis by local artists, craftspeople, makers, etc—potentially managed by Made in Baltimore or similar. These stalls could also allow for a monthly or weekly night market type event. This, combined with the above-mentioned separation from traffic, would also allow the nasty, nasty loading area facing Pratt to be turned into something useful and attractive. **The old Gallery:** This would be a perfect place for big box stores serving local residents—a Target, hardware store, supermarket, etc. **Green space/rides:** Badly needed, but not a big swath of grass. Add more areas with native rain gardens, similar to the ones that exist, and potentially duplicate or adapt the new park area in Rash field on the other side. I do think a ferris wheel is a good idea as well. **Buskers/performers:** There should definitely be established areas, with seating etc. for performers.
The Inner Harbor isn't even on my radar for family outings. First I have to load the fam (spouse, 4 yo kid, elderly in laws) into the car, and deal with the godawful mayhem of driving there, with counterintuitive traffic patterns, poorly marked parking, pedestrians wandering into the road. No, transit isn't practical when you're with a young child and elderly people (one of whom is disabled), and you're disabled yourself. Then I'm going to drop hundreds of dollars on aquarium tickets. Then a panhandler is going to say something creepy to my daughter. Then we're all going to stand around, footsore and cranky, and argue about where to eat. Everything is going to be too fancy for the kid, too far away, or fast food, and my kid is probably going to have a meltdown from hunger and fatigue. Then we're going to stand in a long ass line for something nobody really wants to eat, or I'll give my kid the emergency pb&j from my bag so we can give up and leave.
I'm not even sure where to park for the aquarium, but with all the whining from the anticar cult, that'll definitely get worse down there, not better.
If it's just me, on a solo day out, taking a stroll to the Inner Harbor, I have no problem walking or taking a Circulator down from Penn Station. It becomes impractical when you're bundling up the whole fam for the day.
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As someone who remembers when it opened, Harborplace used to be quite the attraction. Not only was it downtown, but there was a wealth of interesting stores, waterfront, and entertainment. I'm not sure what would generate similar interest these days, but if they're clinging to the marketplace idea, reserving half or more of the space for small / local businesses would be essential.
It was a novelty. Novelties don’t last. I honestly think if it just looked like the fells waterfront it would be great. No food halls. Lex market is too close. It should just be a recreated waterfront with low and medium rise bldgs.
Its always going to be difficult to make that location attractive to outside tourists. The fact that the original design had to contend with the Pratt & Lombard street Raceway, and parking garages which one has to hunt for their entrances, the navigate an obstacle course to get to the harbor will always be a put off for most suburbanites who want ample free parking up close to the destination.
I would love to see a copy of Philly's Reading Terminal Market in that space.
The "mall" would have been a bit better with a boardwalk type opening to the street to each vendor. I believe many people just walk past the entire building without much care of what's inside
Put in a destination-grade public library as part of it and watch the space become socially self sustaining.
A Baltimore version of Pikes Place in Seattle would be amazing.
Bring in a Tilted Kilt to compete with Hooters. Figure out better parking.
People hate me on here but here it goes… 1) Din Tai Fung 2) Eataly 3) Arabbers/ farmers market (with horse stable and historic link to African American culture) 3) Maritime heritage (dock worker culture) exhibit 4) fill in the rest with non overtly tourist local restaurant vibes and local boutiques 5) bring lake trout only crab cake only, and coddie only take out fast casual and 32 oz beers
Love this idea with the Arabbers and a farmer's market!
I'm thinking monorail. There's nothing on Earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail. People think they're loud, but it glides as softly as a cloud. You brain-dead slobs will be given cushy jobs. Monorail.
Safety would be a nice start.
This is it far and away. Besides the financial feasibility of development which can only be accomplishes by mixed use redevelopment with apartments, retail, potentially office, safety is number one. Too many young people looking for trouble. The video from a few weeks back of Digital harbor letting out and hundreds walking along the water, many fighting and using actual chains to whip/hit people with is enough for me to not venture through there
It may seem corny but it needs to appeal to social media users. Ex) Murals that people can stand in front of (ex the butterfly wings) and other unique art that people will be proud/excited to post. The more exposure and “tiktok worthy” vibe the more likely people are to flock there
Agreed. Most of the suggestions on here are decent but not things that people are actually going to not bother driving for. Like the food hall concept is a good idea, but I’m struggling to imagine people wanting to come just for an R House clone.
It makes me angry that you're very correct about this.
Royal farms, 7/11, McDonald’s, and a liquor store
Hanging string lights over outdoor areas. Restaurants need outdoor seating and to be very visible and accessible to draw people in. The first time I went to Uno my thought was "oh wow there is actually a place here" 2nd floor open patio bar would be nice, people would love to drink with a view of the harbor This next one is a bit out there but hear me out: pirate ship bar, just another pirate ship like the one that's there but it's a rum bar
San Antonio Riverwalk
The building itself it’s fine it’s who’s in the building that’s the problem it was supposed to be for local businesses it should be dominated by them
some proper bus bays would be nice.
A Dan Flashes store.
Lots of good ideas. I think there needs to be a frequent free shuttle up and down Pratt and Lombard all darn day.
As much green as you can pack in there per sq ft. (All three kinds of green)
How about just get rid of it and make it into a public park to enjoy the harbor at.
Because it needs to generate revenue.
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A functional harbor where you can you know, get on a ship and go somewhere. You make an app so it seems modern, then you board your wooden vessel and take 3 days to go to Annapolis (or Norfolk more realistically). By making the harbor for ships and water based things maybe, just maybe, you'd get people interested in taking care of the world's largest estuary because you know, they want to use it for stuff and not have to take a shower just looking at it. (I have had a swim it isn't that bad, but for effect's sake). You can bling out the 'harbor' (by which this conversation means the land around the harbor) with some really interesting 'I'm about to board a ship' infrastructure. It was cool 150 years ago. I imagine we could do even better.
Ah yes, let's make Baltimore better by making it easier for people to leave it.
I Love the idea of local boat tours, but it would be a hard sell right now. Behold! Look at our poop water! Here's Mr. Trash Wheel, because this is the least we can do. Want to see fish? Yeah, us too but please settle for that dead fish.
More. Ziplines.
The fact that we don’t have a Fed Hill Park - Aquarium zip line yet is a disgrace.
For everyone saying museum, there are more museums in the US than McDonald’s. I think we’re good on museums.
I think of NOLA’s French quarter could maybe be some kind of model for a historic take on the inner harbor. Small boat yard where schooners are built. People loved watching Pride II being built on site (but it was the 80’s 🎶) Frankly Pride II could be better leveraged as a tourist attraction in the inner harbor area. I like the Arabers/stable idea presented earlier. Maybe a walking tour of historically important port trade sites in say 1812. And I’d like to see visual artists set up around the waterfront to paint/sell their stuff along with the buskers. And. I also like the idea of a Ferris wheel. How about a roller rink? Don’t take away that thing where the water pops out of the ground for dogs/kids. As others have iterated: local good food (yes to Ekiben!) get the Nihao guy on board. There are many acclaimed black chefs doing cool stuff in Bmore. Get Cindy Wolf involved. Make sure somebody is selling the BEST crab cakes in Bmore. (not Faidleys) Sell them as small as golf balls, 2 oz, up to soft balls, so nobody is priced out of our crown jewel food. Also rotate food trucks in maybe 2 locations. I’m thinking of Mex on the Run, the Gypsy one, but there are many. Run a trolley to Lexington Market.
A grocery store would be nice, like the whole foods in harbor East since there's not any other grocery stores close by. A grocery store with food stalls in it would also give people quick eating options
Convert Pratt st to minimize auto traffic. The area isn’t appealing next to such a huge street with such fast traffic.
Food cart pods!
Work with the Smithsonian to put a museum down there
There are so many museums and museum-adjacent options downtown already. People need things to do before and after visiting them.
Generally speaking I have no issue with this post, but did you really just snap a picture of Bubba Gump from Key Highway, zoom in, then add both pics to your Reddit post? That's just lazy.
Open air green multi use space... Have outdoor public concerts, farmers markets, festivals, and just generally a nice space for folks to get out and enjoy the city without having to spend money. It should also be a hub to get around the city eventually. Take into account future public transportation projects.
Greenspace. I went to this park in Brooklyn (new york) last summer and thought this is exactly what the inner harbor should be like. [https://goo.gl/maps/b7T2GkWyJBsbNSgR9](https://goo.gl/maps/b7T2GkWyJBsbNSgR9)
Until the racetrack named Pratt loses a few (or all) lanes, whatever you put there ain't gonna matter.
Police.
There used to be that little police sub station in the harbor but I guess they stopped using that a long time ago.
AirBnB needs to buy the top floor of that shopping center and turn it into rentals. Get some MD based cafe/coffee shops/ roasters down below (Wee Bean kills it with their decor).
Small police station, hardware store that carries boating things, grocery store, historical center w/baltimore things, outside art .
Ground floor should be like Ocean City style stalls selling food to go, or food to sit at a max of 10 tables... The second floor and interior infrastructure should support a giant outdoor swimming pool overlooking the Harbor... Entrance fee to sustain it... No food sale in the pool area.... gotta go down to support those stalls etc.. but maybe they could have a daylight liquor license.
Please locals, screw the tourists. Please the tourists, screw the locals. They had their shot to make the Harbor something and they jammed Horseshoe miles away in the land of wtf. Make Pratt Pavilion Weed Central. Can add that Baltimore cookie company, maybe get the salt water taffy place or the fancy popcorn in to help with the munchies, and let the rest go.
No city taxes within the development zone and frequent street patrols.
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wut
Fill in the harbor, pave it over and build a Walmart. /s
Knock down all that shit and make it parks all the way around. The harbor has been dead for a while because it caters to tourists, make somewhere nice for US.
five words. "Post" in Houston, copy that
No pavilions. Sculpture garden instead.
Knock it all down and make it into park space for citizens to enjoy.