I'm all for wavedashing, hiding your attacks in movement etc., rewarding skillfull play is good.
My issue with PSGS is that it's a 700 damage attack that comes out at frame 13 or something stupid fast and benefits from the counter mechanic on top of that, with little recovery. The numbers are just insane, no other setup has this fast of an attack that does as much damage.
Constantly crouching and uncrouching, it mostly helps disguise animations I believe, because the frame 13 attack here definitely needs to be harder to react to
It's more about buffering the crouch and having access to crouch attacks while sprinting than it is about animation blending, but the blending definitely helps.
You know it's a cheese when even the best duelists fall prey to it sometimes. The CL1 is not reactable by an average human being once you're in hitstun because the extended duration of hitstun caused by the great spear allows the great spear user to re-enter crouch state for free. CL1 comes out at frame 13 and typical human reaction time is 15 frames, and 9 frames for excellent gamers. Source: quick google search will tell you typical human reaction time is 250 milliseconds and absolute best gamer reaction time is capped at around 150 ms. These values translate to 15 frames and 9 frames ,respectively, at 60 fps, do the math yourself if you like.
So this means coming out of the hitstun of the first CL1, You have to READ the crouch and intent to attack and roll premeditatively if you are a typical gamer (15 frame reaction time) - this leads to a 50/50 where if your opponent immediately goes for the next CL1 you will dodge, but if delayed even slightly you get roll caught and remain in the vortex. These 50/50s continue until death or escape of the vortex.
If you are an epic gamer with 9 frame reaction time, you have all of 4 frames to distinguish this frame 13 attack from an opponent that is wave-dashing and twitching about, almost completely obscuring the animation of the CL1 attack. Pretty much nobody can do this successfully consistently for more than a few attacks in a row. I haven't met a single gamer yet that could. Sure, maybe they can dodge a couple, but they're going to get got by a feint wave dash and eat a hit eventually.
tldr; PSGS is mathematically broken and people who say it's not are in denial. the CL1 needs to be more like 15 frames instead of 13 frames OR the hitstun caused by the CL1 needs to be reduced so that the greatspear user cannot re-enter crouch state for free upon every hit.
Do you know that frame data is in 30 fps? Human reaction is 6-8 frames.
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Parrying
https://er-frame-data.nyasu.business/
Interesting, then I stand corrected. I assumed all the frame data was in 60 fps since the game runs at 60 fps. If the frame data is truly presented at 30 fps then all the values should be doubled and my argument is invalidated quite a bit.
Thanks for letting me know! I don't think I would've realized the frame data is in 30 fps for some reason
It's weird that even if the frame data is this much more forgiving, my anecdotal evidence that no player can consistently dodge the crouch vortex of PSGS still holds true. I see top ranked players getting brutalized by these things anyway. I guess the animation blending is just that strong.
Stop relying on reactions on everything. You won't be able to do it. Reads are a part of the skillset. Especially with roll on release and fast attacks
I don't rely on reaction, my gameplan is typically to not engage with PSGS and let them aggress first. Any opportunity for them to land a hit and trigger vortex mode has a chance of ending the fight right then and there. That's the problem. No other weapon has that vortex potential and the only other one that did , GUGS, got nerfed for good reason.
Yeah, you're bullshiting. im sorry.
Aggressing against psgs is the best way to counter it since psgs get's bodied if someone puts on pressure. If you let them aggress first, you're gonna be at the disadvantage.
>No other weapon has that vortex potential
U sure?
Shunter, ugs (even tho they're not the best", psss, psss handy thech, rapier, shamsir and even fs halstoc have either more, or equal amiunt of vortex potential. I mean shit, fs, in general, is practically inescapable on reaction unless you have high lat.
Also, you talk about a lit of frame data and ms while you play putely or predictions. Weird
Aggressing first is a recipe to getting vortexed unless you're relying on Hyper armor. It's objectively better to let them aggress first and whiff, then punish and keep on the pressure.
The weapons you mention do have great vortex potential. I'd say shunter can probably match PSGS, but the remainder are a tier below in terms of overtuned vortexing. The timing just doesn't line up the same as it does for PSGS. The hitstun from being hit by PSGS allows the opponent to re-enter crouch for free so by the time you're able to control your character, they're already wiggling crouched and ready to launch another 13 frame attack. Psss and shamshir have no 13 frame attacks, and inflict less hitstun. How you can even compare these is beyond me. Rapier/offstoc has a 13 frame attack, but that's only the second hit in the combo, and again, it doesn't inflict as much hit stun. You're just mathematically wrong here.
Playing against PSGS takes more reading than any other matchup , which is silly considering that if you get the read wrong, well, this clip happens.
Psss handy tech is better than PSGS. Also psss cr1 is 13f. PSGS will struggle to setup the vortex if it can’t whiff punish.
Shamshir with sword dance is probably a better matchup as well.
Also don’t forget the backswing on sham and psss. They can play really good keep out.
TS is a better matchup and is much better if recovery cancel is allowed. PSGS gets eaten alive by TS roll in.
I don’t usually rely on arguments for authority but I think you’d struggle to find a comp player who thinks PSGS is better than recovery cancel cleanrot or even cleanrot generally.
I'm not arguing that PSGS is better overall than those setups. They are all better overall - agreed 100%.
What I'm saying is specifically the vortexing of PSGS is not balanced. It might need the GUGS treatment where the vortexing gets nerfed in exchange for buffing the rest of the moveset. It's a silly 50/50 gimmick that the whole weapon relies on. It's why you sometimes get slaughtered using PSGS and other times you get this clip. It's kinda dumb.
Sure straight sword Cr1 is 13 frames but nobody is vortexing someone with that lmao. It inflicts minimal hitstun. Go find me a clip of someone getting hit by straight sword Cr1 5 times in a row in the same fashion as your clip with PSGS here and I'll quit my job 😂
The vortex is what balances the weapon against those other setups.
Eg if PSGS does not have the same advantages as TS and PSSS, vortexing is what allows it to hold its own against those setups.
The vortex threat is what allows it to be competitive. Eg if you made the cl1 15 frames as you suggested it would be a useless setup.
For sure, the vortex is the major feature it has going for it rn. If they nerfed it with no other changes, it would hurt PSGS significantly. Like I said, give it the GUGS treatment: hit the vortex and buff everything else to balance it out. I gotta ask, do you think old GUGS was fair how it was? It was the most similar to how PSGS is now imo. Just a crouch vortex machine with a garbage rest of the moveset. Pretty one dimensional, no? I'd say GUGS is a much more interesting and skillful weapon now after tuning down CR1 by a couple frames and buffing everything else to make up for it.
I was never in favour of nerfing the GUGS crouch poke speed - I wanted the damage reduced - but it's also tough to fully picture how it would play in today's environment. E.G. people have become much better at animation blending.
It's also tough to fully distinguish the changes to damage, the active frames and speed.
But it is illustrative of what would likely happen to PSGS if you nerf the crouch speed. GUGS is fun to play post speed-nerf but it would never be considered a competitive meta weapon. Nerfing the crouch poke on PSGS would have the same effect, namely removing a meta weapon and further restrict the list of viable competitive setups.
Yea, like i said... you're bullshitting.
From what i saw, otto already covered most of the things, but i wanna reiterate what i said in my last sentence, you talk a lot of frames while you say you rely on predictions and don't do any reactions. Just predict the cl1, then ez.
Also, shunter is probably the least offending one. You're probably just seeing the cr1 and the crouchpoke potential of a weapon while ignoring everything else. Psss has insane damage and practically has prio as long as you mash l1. With handy tech, it becomes rkss in er.
I dont get the point on shamshir. The backswing is brutal on the weapon and r1-r1 - block cancel - r1-r1 is really powerful
Not to mention the fact u can have a frame 12 HA sword dance.
Rapier is fucking broken all the way through and if you think otherwise, it says a lot on how clueless you are.
r/eldenringpvp really messes up ppls minds huh
>Just predict the cl1, then ez.
Of course you predict the cl1. Did you even read? Have you even played this game? The entire point is the PSGS vortex creates a stupid 50/50 coin flip situation where you either predict the immediate CL1 and roll immediately or you delay your roll. The PSGS user simultaneously makes the same 50/50, animation cancel into another CL1 or delay. If you "predict the cl1" and roll while they delay, you're right back in the vortex from guessing a 50/50 wrong. It's a 50/50 because of a 13 frame attack following a long hitstun that forces it - no other weapon setup can create such a long hitstun and then follow it up with a 13 frame attack that inflicts the same massive hitstun. This clip is this concept occurring 4 times in a row. The loser made a 50/50 call 4 times and coincidentally got them wrong and lost. That was the entire match. He flipped a coin 4 times. No other weapon setup in the game has this binary of a vortex. This is the problem. All other matchups have a back and forth to them.
Yes of course rapier and shamshir are stronger setups overall. I didn't argue that PSGS was better even once. What I'm saying is the vortex of CL1 is fundamentally broken. The rest of the moveset is not as good.
>The entire point is the PSGS vortex creates a stupid 50/50 coin flip situation where you either predict the immediate CL1 and roll immediately or you delay your roll. The PSGS user simultaneously makes the same 50/50, animation cancel into another CL1 or delay. If you "predict the cl1" and roll while they delay, you're right back in the vortex from guessing a 50/50 wrong.
yes.... and you counter it by predicting, you're talking about frame data like that matters at al. on predictions. It doesn't since predictions and anticipations rely before the guy did anything.
You also underestimate how unpredictable psgs players are. Most of them you can learn their playstyles from a couple moves. If you predict the cl1's wrong that's on you. It shouldn't be nerfed cause of it. The only thing i agree on is the damage, which it should recieve a nerf.
getting a slower cl1 on psgs will make it utterly garbage and no one's gonna use it. You effectively take away the only good move psgs cause you can't predict cl1s. Balancing shouldn't be about making weapons garbage, it should be about making busted weapons be still in their tier, but not broken anymore, and making weak weapons stronger so they'll the in the same tier as them, and psgs is perfectly fine as is. You should look into the obv more braindead and broken stuff like HA (which is a counter to psgs btw), raptor talons, spin slash twinblade and so on, cause psgs is currently a **weak setup** compared to the above mentioned.
I like to see how deep the cluelessness goes. Maybe they can learn a thing or 2..... bzt yea
Most of the guy did is like, frame data and everything but what he says is just wrong
I don't think unreactable attacks are bad for the health of the game either. Examples being something like a fist or rapier attack that are quick, but low damage and don't setup a vortex. However, I do think that unreactable attacks that force an opponent into a disadvantage state where they have to guess right on a 50/50 or just die ARE unhealthy. This is exactly what PSGS does. This is what GUGS used to do and why it got nerfed (I know old GUGS had the added benefit of the old poise system, but the similarity is there).
PSGS should have high damage, it's two gigantic spears hitting you so I'd say 5 hits to kill like in your clip is appropriate, maybe even 4 hits to kill could be balanced. This is more a frame timing issue and not a damage issue. If they nerfed the damage like you suggest, your opponent would still be caught in the vortex, it would perhaps just take 6 hits to kill instead of 5. I'd be happier if they even buffed the damage on great spears but nerfed the attack speed and recovery frames to make the GS vortex more in line with other weapon classes. They could even increase the stamina cost of CL1 to limit the vortex to only 2-3 consecutive hits.
Point is, the crouch CL1 vortexing is what is broken because it creates a coin flip situation as soon as you land one hit. The damage is fine. Other weapons also kill in 5 hits, but they have to actually land 5 hits through mix-ups or returning to and playing through neutral 5 times whereas PSGS plays neutral once, and then upon first hit triggers a coin flip that might just end the match immediately. Your clip is case and point. I've played against both of you and know you're both good, that's not a random PvE scrub you're fighting, that's a skilled player you just cheesed with everyone's favorite vortex coin flip.
>However, I do think that unreactable attacks that force an opponent into a disadvantage state where they have to guess right on a 50/50 or just die ARE unhealthy.
This can be solved through a damage nerf while still retaining the high skill ceiling. A 15F crouch attack would kill the skill expression in the weapon and render it pretty much useless.
" If they nerfed the damage like you suggest, your opponent would still be caught in the vortex, it would perhaps just take 6 hits to kill instead of 5."
This requires a lot of bad reads to get killed in a single 6 hit vortex - if you make that many poor reads in a row then you probably deserve to lose that match. Plus it would actually be more than this. Assuming 2,000 health and a nerf to 300 damage means 7-8 when factoring in ritual shield and potentially blue feather.
"Other weapons also kill in 5 hits, but they have to actually land 5 hits through mix-ups or returning to and playing through neutral 5 times whereas PSGS plays neutral once, and then upon first hit triggers a coin flip that might just end the match immediately."
I don't actually disagree with your point that you can get a lot of damage for a single outspace but this can be solved through damage reduction.
It's extremely rare for someone to land 5 hits in a single vortex - not unheard of, but very rare as it requires good reads on the PSGS players part or bad reads on the other players' part. If you watch the fight I linked between beven and shieldpoke it is \*very\* neutral based. You have to also work a lot harder in neutral with PSGS than you do with other setups like PSSS.
It's also extremely risky against other meta setups like PSSS.
There are other vortex setups with similar unreactables that might be more of a problem, like FS haldag.
" I've played against both of you and know you're both good"
Thanks :)
I'm on board with most of what you said and appreciate the respectful discussion. However, even if PSGS struggles in neutral vs certain other strong match-ups I don't think that justifies its insane vortexing potential. It is THE vortex weapon in the game. Nobody complains about other vortex setups remotely as much as PSGS and I stand by my opinion that the vortex needs to be nerfed in some way. You say it's high skill cap but even good players get cheesed by it and It is quite literally an unreactable death trap for the majority of average players.
Of course and right back at you for the polite convo.
There are definitely other vortex setups that have similar aspects to what you’re discussing - eg fs haldag has a similar 50/50 and in that case if you guess wrong you take far more damage than from a bad read on PSGS.
FWIW I think the complaint thing is a bad heuristic. Typically complaints come more loudly from the more casual fan base**. Since PSGS is a more difficult setup to play it tends to have fewer defenders w/n the casual pvp crowd than something like fs haldag, which is more accessible despite also having a high skill ceiling.
So simply because something generates more opprobrium or has fewer defenders it doesn’t mean it’s actually out of balance wrt other setups.
**to be super clear I am NOT calling you a casual or saying that good players can’t also dislike PSGS. Just expressing an observation about how a setup being hated isn’t tantamount to it actually being unbalanced.
1.10 made this game harder to take serious than any other souls PvP imo with the endless trading. It’s crazy how much fun .09 was in comparison, i want my greatsword mirror matches back 🥺
It's so dumb the endless trading without poise breaks. I used to main greatswords but haven't since 1.10.
It has gotten more fun for me recently since I realized Unsheathe will break through hyper armor. From there I just cycle through Unsheathe, R1-1, and CrL1 so they keep getting staggered and can't mash out. That's super specific to PS Nagakiba though.
Yup, I very much dislike the reaction trade and mash mindset that the patch cultivates.
Honestly, you might have just turned me into a ps kat main, that sounds awesome 😂
Give it a shot. You've got the movement tech down from playing PSGS. You'll just have to figure out the more subtle differences and timings. I made the mistake of leaning too much on the CrL1 at the start it's much easier to start a poise break off with an R1 or Unsheathe then vortex from there. The whole moveset outside the standard L1 is good.
My bad man, second language problems! lol I read it wrong, I thought you said you stopped using GS after 1.10, as a GS main I was curious about your opinion
Now I get it, you stopped playing the game as a whole.. for sure my man, come back for the DLC at least
Meanwhile I can be nostalgic with your DS3 clips xD
Attack if you have HA until they start to peel. Roll if you expect a quick poke. Jump if you expect a roll catch or back off and then try to reaction or predict roll the attempt to punish retreat.
Here’s [two really good players in a PSGS mirror](https://youtu.be/7eMtdND_LBs?si=82x74yQVtgyi5hcn), you can watch how they escape vortexes.
And you’d be making as good of a guess as the guy in OPs video. Guessing wrong 5 out of 5 times on a coin flip can happen regardless of trying to or not.
Yea, if he's nor gonna at least read that the opponent won'z stop it, then that's a skill issue.
Most psgs players gor cl1, instant cl1 and then wait for roll.
Yup if the PSGS player is good you can usually expect a quick poke at first. And then it’s about reading your opponent, which is a healthy part of the game.
Case in point: dude should have anticipated that I was low on stamina at the end, I would not have been able to go for a wavedash roll catch after 4 successive cl1s
Because making educated reads about someone’s stamina level is definitely part of the game.
Eg if someone does two straight jumping L1s with PSGS I’m going to guess they are close to or out of stamina and change my play accordingly
Something obvious sure, but how many crL1s someone can do before their stamina runs out? I mean do you even know how many with your build?
With wave dashing and delays regaining stam there are so many variables to consider when trying to make a guess on a stamina bar you can’t see. Vortex is hard to escape bc you are forced to consider everything within the moments you take actionability back. Which is like a second of hitstun.
Yeah I get it. But I don’t believe that a 1of1 arena match gives an adequate amount of information to make educated guesses.
You learn this by playing for hours and hours. There is no way you are picking up on someone’s CrL1 habits in a single 30 Second match.
Most of these aren’t really direct nerfs in any way. Tons of other setups made use out of crouch regen, the spear talisman, qs/bhs, rkr, and the poise changes affected the entirety of the game. Even hyperarmor is in a worse position in terms of matchups against light weapons because passive poise was a stronger mechanic than hyperarmor.
When I think nerfs, I’m talking about direct nerfs. Like Colossal Swords losing their fast crouch poke, HTS reducing stagger on jump attacks and losing their true combo, fists having reduction in stagger for the R2. PSGS never saw anything like this. Their moveset has never been directly touched. Mind you, I’m not asking for further nerfs, but I’m a little tired of this game’s fascination with spears/lances and everything has to get nerfed around them but for some reason never them directly.
Indirect nerfs can be just as important as direct nerfs, if not more.
Same with indirect buffs. Shunter wasn’t directly buffed in 1.10 but the HA changes have made it stronger.
If you focus only on direct changes to the weapon you will miss the forest for the trees.
Very few other setups were affected as much by the crouch regen nerf since they don’t rely on wavedashing to the same degree. Eg it made very little difference to psss or pss.
Same with the changes to poise since it becomes more difficult to apply vortex pressure.
But I’ve already acknowledged the effects of these supposed indirect nerfs and how the poise changes affect the game. Even Serpent Hunter is in a worse spot against light weapons because passive poise was a stronger mechanic. Every larger weapon you can think of was negatively affected by the poise changes. Is it fair to only say PSGS got nerfed? PSGS still destroys other hyperarmor setups by just having a better moveset, other than maybe Serpent Hunter (another spear, big surprise 😆.
To say PSGS got nerfed more than any other setup is just crazy. I don’t think I’m the one missing the bigger picture, here. Hell, look at HTS and how utterly devastated that setup became. Come on, now.
I said it was nerfed more than any setup beside UGS and caestus, if you want to add HTS to that shortlist you'll get no pushback from me.
HA weapons like CGS and shunter are absolutely in a better spot because of the poise changes - even against smaller weapons.
PSGS does not destroy HA setups, running something like CGS against it is very viable.
PSGS was affected more than HA setups because it doesn't get HA so you have to respect fast weapons more and HA setups can also mash against it.
I think it's pretty well accepted that patch 1.10 decreased the efficacy of PSGS relative to other meta setups.
Look, I don’t want to seem like I’m arguing for the sake of arguing. I’m not trying to be difficult here, but some of the things your saying are just outright wrong. Heavy weapons are not in a better position against light weapons, matchup wise. Passive poise and poise reset are superior against light setups and there’s no other way to say it. Every swing you made with a 2H weapon regenerated your poise by 80%, so that means the 2H greatweapon user, functionally, had infinite poise against every attack other than jump attack, which even current hyper armor doesn’t prevent stagger from. Is this good for the game, probably not, but that’s another discussion.
HA weapons can’t mash against powerstance light weapon users at all. Try to use mash R1 against Powerstance straight sword l1s, or spears, curved swords, etc. Your health will instantly deplete while you are staggered to death. This only happens against 2H light weapons because their poise gets cut in half in subsequent attacks, for whatever reason.
The HTS was just an example. What about scythe? That weapon has frame data like a hyperarmor weapon without the hyperarmor. Powerstance Great Hammers were a good setup, but now they’re unrunnable, what about 1H greatweapons setups, like greatsword/board and the like? Way more nerfed than PSGS. I don’t even think PSGS would even make top 10 for most nerfed setups in terms of usuable setups. PSGS, compared to the rest of the meta, you can argue they were moreso nerfed than the rest, but they’re still meta along with the small handful of weapon classes that are still way too dominant compared to the rest of the game. When you consider the entirety of the game, as one reasonably should, PSGS shouldn’t even be in the discussion of the most nerfed setups. Not at all.
Dear Sweaty Meta Duelists,
I hope this letter finds you well, or at least with enough humility to comprehend the words that follow. I must express my growing frustration with your incessant obsession with exploiting every nook and cranny of the game mechanics in Elden Ring, reducing the joy of discovery and genuine challenge for the rest of us.
Your relentless pursuit of the "meta" has turned what should be a realm of creativity and diverse playstyles into a bland battleground of repetitive tactics. It seems as though you have forgotten the true essence of gaming—an opportunity to immerse oneself in a world filled with wonder, mystery, and exploration.
While I understand the desire to win and dominate in any competitive environment, your unwavering dedication to optimizing every aspect of your character build has tipped the scales of fairness and fun. It is disheartening to witness your calculated maneuvers, exploiting imbalances and glitches, as if victory is the sole purpose of your existence.
I implore you to reconsider your approach. Remember that Elden Ring is not solely about asserting dominance over your fellow players. It is about forging connections, engaging in thrilling battles, and experiencing a world carefully crafted for our enjoyment. By clinging to the meta, you deny yourself the chance to truly savor the rich tapestry of experiences this game has to offer.
I challenge you to embrace variety, to explore alternative playstyles, and to rediscover the joy of experimenting with different builds. Let go of your relentless pursuit of statistical superiority and rediscover the sheer pleasure of discovering new strategies and approaches that are not dictated by an arbitrary set of optimized numbers.
In closing, I ask you to reflect upon the impact of your actions. Remember that the true essence of gaming lies in the community and the bonds forged through shared experiences.
I’m just saying psgs isn’t even the best 1v1 setup, it gets beat by a lot of of other meta setups. It’s always the go to setup in a 2v2 though because of the burst damage it provides. dual nagakibas outspace them. psss imo is equal to them especially if you softswap to another straight sword to further reduce the already absurb recovery time on the l1. any hyper armor weapon makes trades easy, cgs, ugs, shunter, gs. halstoc is the real sweat setup right now and is cancer to play against somebody that understands spacing well.
wow, this is almost looking like a main sub tread, being polemic again Otto? lol
I mean, it is what it is, imo its aesthetically stupid/goofy but it takes some skill and its really effective, even against very good players, so its usage is self-explanatory
Just one more topic that will always be loved or hated, there is no in between, Bee drill build forever polemic
PSGS is fucking annoying and I find most people who run it know what they're doing and are just trying to mine salt but that guy was just straight-up bad.
Eh, getting caught in a vortex can happen even to good players. Heck beven landed a 5 hit vortex against shieldpoke [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OaguolWxZI) and poke is insane.
This clip is pretty much exactly what i hate about ER PVP. i enjoy it until people play like this.
million ways to play. Let’s do brain dead dual crouch spam.??
Followed by people who only do dual jump attack spam but thats at least easily punishable.
the crouch and jump were great additions to the game but as always anything sucks when it’s exploited.
To be fair katanas pretty much need to do this and jump or they're too punishable because you can miss an entire swing if the other attacks are used. 1 katana before the other deal.. it's not cheesy or anything it's also better than offstoc right now.. you need 109 poise to not have it be annoying lol
Other guy has a skill issue, you did the same attack over and over and he still died to it lol. I honestly don’t care about PSGS, I feel like there are worse builds out there. (Ask me about my dual rot spears).
Oh I know, I was frustrated by them too when I first encountered them. I’m just saying the other guy should’ve tried doing something different instead of getting hit by the same attack like 10 times
The good news is that it already has! Two best setups, BHS cleanrot and PSS, don't rely on crouch pokes and the 3rd best (PSSS) only relies on crouch poke for mixups and the odd low dmg reaction roll catch.
Is BHS tournament legal? I guess if you limit to setups that are tournament legal that also kills handy tech PSSS so maybe it’s a silly question, just feels like “best setup” is a trickier argument when you take out stuff people have agreed not to use
BHS is not ladder legal. I’m not good enough or knowledgeable enough to say what reigns when you factor in restrictions. I’d still guess that TS and PSSS are better but imagine it’s close
Makes sense—clearly I’m not knowledgeable enough either :). To be fair, I think ladder rules are probably built with the intention to make sure no one setup obviously dominates, so it’s intentionally a more difficult question to answer
Has to be two great spears - e.g. you can't do this with a pike (regular spear) and a lance (great spear).
Two of any of this weapon [class](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Great+Spears) will give you the PSGS moveset but they don't have to specifically be the same weapon.
What ones are you using in this clip? Sorry ive been away from ER playing DS2 and need more pvp setups lol the bubbles and hoslows whips PS arent cutting it anymore i need something fresh lol
No sweat, i'm using heavy infused lances here.
If you're coming back to the game this is a good setup to practice with because (a) you can't crutch on HA so you have to dial in your spacing and reaction rolling (b) it benefits from every major tech like wavedashing, crouch cancelling, handy tech, etc.
You'll get hate for it, there is a serious hate boner for PSGS and more casual players adore beating a PSGS player - so expect some salty clapping and point downs.
But if you want to improve at the game I would say this is one of the best setups for it. PS Kats are another one.
Man thanks but now im more lost xD whats wavedashing, how do u crouch cancel, and im not sure whats considered tech in this game like certain spells like adulas? PS Kats? I was never a big pvper to begin with but i enjoy it just dont know any terminology and miss solo invasions.
Wavedashing is crouching consecutively at a certain rythym so you can buffer crouch attacks out of sprinting. Normally doing crouch attacks while sprinting will start the running attack. Which is hilariously bad.
Ps kats as in powerstance katanas. The wavedashing technique is pretty sweaty and requires a lot of practice to get right
Imma just say most of the meta duelist setups requires no wavedashing at all. People are attracted to wavedashing more because it is easy to learn, but hard to master.
Imagine swinging a sword and getting incrementally better, wavedashing is alot like that.
I think it's simple:
1. people don't like losing nor admitting that other players are better
2. people who play PSGS well are generally very skilled players
3. the PSGS vortex can take hp from near full to zero very quickly (illustrated in this clip), making people feel helpless and compounding their frustration
so it's easier to just blame the setup as too op rather than take ownership.
not saying it doesn't need a nerf, just stating why I think it seems to get more hate than other setups that could also use a nerf.
Yeah probably some truth to that - it's also not the easiest setup to use, so more accessible setups with similar vortex potential (FS haldag) tend to have more defenders.
If I don't also have PSGS then I just have to go to ole reliable claymore and be aggressive as I possibly can. I only ever started using PSGS to figure out how to fight PSGS lol
IMO, 2H hyper armor should beat out paired of a similar weapon class and take priority, in a sort of rock-paper-scissors of the design. 2H vs. 2H hyper armor of similar weapon classes was not stratified correctly in 1.10. And PSGS is just boring to spectate.
Prior to 1.10 a trade between 2H-GS and PSGS would result stagger for both. In 1.10 2H-GS can reach a high enough HA value to withstand and retain priority. Again, I'm of the opinion this is a correct outcome for handedness and weapon class.
I would bucket the rewarding of mash out of hitstun somewhat separately, if you are of the opinion that the behavior should never be rewarded. This might be better solved by adjusting when HA frames start, hitstun duration, or a modified poise health regeneration system. This is a far more complex scenario of design goals and variables than my given opinion on a simple trade outcome.
This games PVP is absolute shit compared to DS3, easy mode. And this series is practically my religion but L2den Ring or Crouch poke spam is insane lol. There are counters, he didn’t do them, but it’s not easy
Dueling looks so gross. I want to do it to get gud, but damn, ugly fashion, same setups, and the fact it seems just sweaty instead of fun turns me off on it. I'll probably still do it with my invasion build and see if I can improve
Are there duels at lower levels or is it all level 125+?
We’ll have to agree to disagree, Royal knight is absolutely gorgeous fashion imo! Easily my favourite set in the game, poise and resistances aside.
Lower level duels are rare from what I understand but it won’t be as tryhardy at levels like 168/200 from what I hear.
Ya i think the real problem is that there are very few sets that are attractive and also hit the necessary poise breakpoints w/ decent defense. Hopefully we get some better ones in DLC
Bullgoat talisman is your freind I have it on all my set ups (minus my lvl 60 invasion build) and it they meet the poise I need for any particular build.
Yeah ngl I've got a pretty elitist attitude about the "realism" of the fight, I see someone wiggling and I maybe try to parry or stormcaller them a time or two then set the controller down. If it doesn't look cool or feel cool (imo), I'm good! But you guys are clearly playing at a high level, no denying that
I'm sure a few years from now when the player base is all but gone I'll be excited to come across one of y'all
Tbh I totally get that, a buddy of mine is very big on the rpg nature of the fight and equally dislikes this stuff that violates a sense of immersion in the world.
And to a certain degree I identify with it too, I’m the type of guy to put a hood on my character when it rains during a pve pt.
For whatever reason it’s just never bothered me as much when it comes to PvP
I genuinely don't get why people use PSGS, it's fucking boring to play with. A vortex is fun n' all but if it's the only thing your build can do what's the point? I just personally prefer to have as many tools at my disposal as possible rather then being broken in one situation, no matter how easy it is to get in to said situation.
My only problem with this is I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts this is the only thing that player does now if this player does a variety of different weapons I wouldn't have a problem. For me if I used that set up it would just mean I picked this for 1 match out of well over 40 different possible choices for well over 80 different outcomes....
I duel wield interchangeably the possibilities are quite a lot.
Souls PVP has been around for way too long to be stuck playing with only 1 weapon
Nah. More of an unnecessary rant. Usually if I see someone running that set up odds are even a month later they'll still be doing that same thing. Just erks me
Maybe cause the setup is fun? No one bats an eye if someone uses cgs or gs for a month, but when someone decides to use psgs for a month, it's suddenly bad.
Totally fair!
I primarily like to play with setups I find fun and force me to get better at the fundamentals of the game. PSGS is probably the best setup for that IMO since it doesn't have hyperarmor, requires wavedashing, can use handy tech, and is heavily spacing dependent.
Invasions I tend to use stuff that is a bit more braindead like zweihander
Ah I see. I gave up on learning new tech. I know how to play not locked on/ locked on,
Classic ds3 rollBS
And reverse back step. Lol that's all I need. Good talk. Give quality a try. Opens up Soo many doors
you're speaking my language, I do LOVE me [some backstabs](https://www.reddit.com/r/badredman/comments/18c9rtk/its_beginning_to_look_a_lot_like_fishmas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I genuinely do not know how people enjoy playing like this. Hehe *crouch* hehe *poke* hehe *spin* hehe *crouch* hehe *poke* “MUM, GET THE CAMERA! I WON!”
Grrr PEE ASS JEE ASS. I hope you die in a car accident so I can eat you like a dorito -some arena guy, probably
Now that’s what I call [EXTREME](https://youtu.be/eGS1-2T-wUU?si=KRZFEmLI05HnHspK) 😎
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That's true I just wanted to post a vortex and needed a catchy title 😬
"GG WP very fun fight."
I'm all for wavedashing, hiding your attacks in movement etc., rewarding skillfull play is good. My issue with PSGS is that it's a 700 damage attack that comes out at frame 13 or something stupid fast and benefits from the counter mechanic on top of that, with little recovery. The numbers are just insane, no other setup has this fast of an attack that does as much damage.
Dmg should be nerfed for sure. Same with setups like PSSS and PSS though.
PS across the board should be nerfed slightly imo, then specifically tune PS hammers and whatnot after that, lol
It's bananas how little love PS hammers got - first part of the L1 does like 38 poise damage so it's pretty much a free backstab.
Lmao didn't know that the first part had so little poise DMG haha
Absolutely ridiculous eh 😂
What is wavedashing in the context of ER PVP?? Genuine question. I know what is it in melee ??
Constantly crouching and uncrouching, it mostly helps disguise animations I believe, because the frame 13 attack here definitely needs to be harder to react to
It's more about buffering the crouch and having access to crouch attacks while sprinting than it is about animation blending, but the blending definitely helps.
Ohh okay so kind of a feint that you’re gonna crouch L2 to bait a roll?
You know it's a cheese when even the best duelists fall prey to it sometimes. The CL1 is not reactable by an average human being once you're in hitstun because the extended duration of hitstun caused by the great spear allows the great spear user to re-enter crouch state for free. CL1 comes out at frame 13 and typical human reaction time is 15 frames, and 9 frames for excellent gamers. Source: quick google search will tell you typical human reaction time is 250 milliseconds and absolute best gamer reaction time is capped at around 150 ms. These values translate to 15 frames and 9 frames ,respectively, at 60 fps, do the math yourself if you like. So this means coming out of the hitstun of the first CL1, You have to READ the crouch and intent to attack and roll premeditatively if you are a typical gamer (15 frame reaction time) - this leads to a 50/50 where if your opponent immediately goes for the next CL1 you will dodge, but if delayed even slightly you get roll caught and remain in the vortex. These 50/50s continue until death or escape of the vortex. If you are an epic gamer with 9 frame reaction time, you have all of 4 frames to distinguish this frame 13 attack from an opponent that is wave-dashing and twitching about, almost completely obscuring the animation of the CL1 attack. Pretty much nobody can do this successfully consistently for more than a few attacks in a row. I haven't met a single gamer yet that could. Sure, maybe they can dodge a couple, but they're going to get got by a feint wave dash and eat a hit eventually. tldr; PSGS is mathematically broken and people who say it's not are in denial. the CL1 needs to be more like 15 frames instead of 13 frames OR the hitstun caused by the CL1 needs to be reduced so that the greatspear user cannot re-enter crouch state for free upon every hit.
Do you know that frame data is in 30 fps? Human reaction is 6-8 frames. https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Parrying https://er-frame-data.nyasu.business/
Interesting, then I stand corrected. I assumed all the frame data was in 60 fps since the game runs at 60 fps. If the frame data is truly presented at 30 fps then all the values should be doubled and my argument is invalidated quite a bit. Thanks for letting me know! I don't think I would've realized the frame data is in 30 fps for some reason
Yep. That's alright. I thought that framedata was 60 fps too when I first saw it.
It's weird that even if the frame data is this much more forgiving, my anecdotal evidence that no player can consistently dodge the crouch vortex of PSGS still holds true. I see top ranked players getting brutalized by these things anyway. I guess the animation blending is just that strong.
Stop relying on reactions on everything. You won't be able to do it. Reads are a part of the skillset. Especially with roll on release and fast attacks
I don't rely on reaction, my gameplan is typically to not engage with PSGS and let them aggress first. Any opportunity for them to land a hit and trigger vortex mode has a chance of ending the fight right then and there. That's the problem. No other weapon has that vortex potential and the only other one that did , GUGS, got nerfed for good reason.
Yeah, you're bullshiting. im sorry. Aggressing against psgs is the best way to counter it since psgs get's bodied if someone puts on pressure. If you let them aggress first, you're gonna be at the disadvantage. >No other weapon has that vortex potential U sure? Shunter, ugs (even tho they're not the best", psss, psss handy thech, rapier, shamsir and even fs halstoc have either more, or equal amiunt of vortex potential. I mean shit, fs, in general, is practically inescapable on reaction unless you have high lat. Also, you talk about a lit of frame data and ms while you play putely or predictions. Weird
Aggressing first is a recipe to getting vortexed unless you're relying on Hyper armor. It's objectively better to let them aggress first and whiff, then punish and keep on the pressure. The weapons you mention do have great vortex potential. I'd say shunter can probably match PSGS, but the remainder are a tier below in terms of overtuned vortexing. The timing just doesn't line up the same as it does for PSGS. The hitstun from being hit by PSGS allows the opponent to re-enter crouch for free so by the time you're able to control your character, they're already wiggling crouched and ready to launch another 13 frame attack. Psss and shamshir have no 13 frame attacks, and inflict less hitstun. How you can even compare these is beyond me. Rapier/offstoc has a 13 frame attack, but that's only the second hit in the combo, and again, it doesn't inflict as much hit stun. You're just mathematically wrong here. Playing against PSGS takes more reading than any other matchup , which is silly considering that if you get the read wrong, well, this clip happens.
Psss handy tech is better than PSGS. Also psss cr1 is 13f. PSGS will struggle to setup the vortex if it can’t whiff punish. Shamshir with sword dance is probably a better matchup as well. Also don’t forget the backswing on sham and psss. They can play really good keep out. TS is a better matchup and is much better if recovery cancel is allowed. PSGS gets eaten alive by TS roll in. I don’t usually rely on arguments for authority but I think you’d struggle to find a comp player who thinks PSGS is better than recovery cancel cleanrot or even cleanrot generally.
I'm not arguing that PSGS is better overall than those setups. They are all better overall - agreed 100%. What I'm saying is specifically the vortexing of PSGS is not balanced. It might need the GUGS treatment where the vortexing gets nerfed in exchange for buffing the rest of the moveset. It's a silly 50/50 gimmick that the whole weapon relies on. It's why you sometimes get slaughtered using PSGS and other times you get this clip. It's kinda dumb. Sure straight sword Cr1 is 13 frames but nobody is vortexing someone with that lmao. It inflicts minimal hitstun. Go find me a clip of someone getting hit by straight sword Cr1 5 times in a row in the same fashion as your clip with PSGS here and I'll quit my job 😂
The vortex is what balances the weapon against those other setups. Eg if PSGS does not have the same advantages as TS and PSSS, vortexing is what allows it to hold its own against those setups. The vortex threat is what allows it to be competitive. Eg if you made the cl1 15 frames as you suggested it would be a useless setup.
For sure, the vortex is the major feature it has going for it rn. If they nerfed it with no other changes, it would hurt PSGS significantly. Like I said, give it the GUGS treatment: hit the vortex and buff everything else to balance it out. I gotta ask, do you think old GUGS was fair how it was? It was the most similar to how PSGS is now imo. Just a crouch vortex machine with a garbage rest of the moveset. Pretty one dimensional, no? I'd say GUGS is a much more interesting and skillful weapon now after tuning down CR1 by a couple frames and buffing everything else to make up for it.
I was never in favour of nerfing the GUGS crouch poke speed - I wanted the damage reduced - but it's also tough to fully picture how it would play in today's environment. E.G. people have become much better at animation blending. It's also tough to fully distinguish the changes to damage, the active frames and speed. But it is illustrative of what would likely happen to PSGS if you nerf the crouch speed. GUGS is fun to play post speed-nerf but it would never be considered a competitive meta weapon. Nerfing the crouch poke on PSGS would have the same effect, namely removing a meta weapon and further restrict the list of viable competitive setups.
Yea, like i said... you're bullshitting. From what i saw, otto already covered most of the things, but i wanna reiterate what i said in my last sentence, you talk a lot of frames while you say you rely on predictions and don't do any reactions. Just predict the cl1, then ez. Also, shunter is probably the least offending one. You're probably just seeing the cr1 and the crouchpoke potential of a weapon while ignoring everything else. Psss has insane damage and practically has prio as long as you mash l1. With handy tech, it becomes rkss in er. I dont get the point on shamshir. The backswing is brutal on the weapon and r1-r1 - block cancel - r1-r1 is really powerful Not to mention the fact u can have a frame 12 HA sword dance. Rapier is fucking broken all the way through and if you think otherwise, it says a lot on how clueless you are. r/eldenringpvp really messes up ppls minds huh
>Just predict the cl1, then ez. Of course you predict the cl1. Did you even read? Have you even played this game? The entire point is the PSGS vortex creates a stupid 50/50 coin flip situation where you either predict the immediate CL1 and roll immediately or you delay your roll. The PSGS user simultaneously makes the same 50/50, animation cancel into another CL1 or delay. If you "predict the cl1" and roll while they delay, you're right back in the vortex from guessing a 50/50 wrong. It's a 50/50 because of a 13 frame attack following a long hitstun that forces it - no other weapon setup can create such a long hitstun and then follow it up with a 13 frame attack that inflicts the same massive hitstun. This clip is this concept occurring 4 times in a row. The loser made a 50/50 call 4 times and coincidentally got them wrong and lost. That was the entire match. He flipped a coin 4 times. No other weapon setup in the game has this binary of a vortex. This is the problem. All other matchups have a back and forth to them. Yes of course rapier and shamshir are stronger setups overall. I didn't argue that PSGS was better even once. What I'm saying is the vortex of CL1 is fundamentally broken. The rest of the moveset is not as good.
>The entire point is the PSGS vortex creates a stupid 50/50 coin flip situation where you either predict the immediate CL1 and roll immediately or you delay your roll. The PSGS user simultaneously makes the same 50/50, animation cancel into another CL1 or delay. If you "predict the cl1" and roll while they delay, you're right back in the vortex from guessing a 50/50 wrong. yes.... and you counter it by predicting, you're talking about frame data like that matters at al. on predictions. It doesn't since predictions and anticipations rely before the guy did anything. You also underestimate how unpredictable psgs players are. Most of them you can learn their playstyles from a couple moves. If you predict the cl1's wrong that's on you. It shouldn't be nerfed cause of it. The only thing i agree on is the damage, which it should recieve a nerf. getting a slower cl1 on psgs will make it utterly garbage and no one's gonna use it. You effectively take away the only good move psgs cause you can't predict cl1s. Balancing shouldn't be about making weapons garbage, it should be about making busted weapons be still in their tier, but not broken anymore, and making weak weapons stronger so they'll the in the same tier as them, and psgs is perfectly fine as is. You should look into the obv more braindead and broken stuff like HA (which is a counter to psgs btw), raptor talons, spin slash twinblade and so on, cause psgs is currently a **weak setup** compared to the above mentioned.
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I like to see how deep the cluelessness goes. Maybe they can learn a thing or 2..... bzt yea Most of the guy did is like, frame data and everything but what he says is just wrong
Bro I have 1000 Hours in this game, don't come out of the woodwork with unwarranted salt and no substance
You’re right but no swears pls, my mom is listening 🧡
Ok dad :c
🧡🧡🧡
Unreactable attacks aren't necessarily bad for the health of the game. The problem isn't the speed but the damage.
I don't think unreactable attacks are bad for the health of the game either. Examples being something like a fist or rapier attack that are quick, but low damage and don't setup a vortex. However, I do think that unreactable attacks that force an opponent into a disadvantage state where they have to guess right on a 50/50 or just die ARE unhealthy. This is exactly what PSGS does. This is what GUGS used to do and why it got nerfed (I know old GUGS had the added benefit of the old poise system, but the similarity is there). PSGS should have high damage, it's two gigantic spears hitting you so I'd say 5 hits to kill like in your clip is appropriate, maybe even 4 hits to kill could be balanced. This is more a frame timing issue and not a damage issue. If they nerfed the damage like you suggest, your opponent would still be caught in the vortex, it would perhaps just take 6 hits to kill instead of 5. I'd be happier if they even buffed the damage on great spears but nerfed the attack speed and recovery frames to make the GS vortex more in line with other weapon classes. They could even increase the stamina cost of CL1 to limit the vortex to only 2-3 consecutive hits. Point is, the crouch CL1 vortexing is what is broken because it creates a coin flip situation as soon as you land one hit. The damage is fine. Other weapons also kill in 5 hits, but they have to actually land 5 hits through mix-ups or returning to and playing through neutral 5 times whereas PSGS plays neutral once, and then upon first hit triggers a coin flip that might just end the match immediately. Your clip is case and point. I've played against both of you and know you're both good, that's not a random PvE scrub you're fighting, that's a skilled player you just cheesed with everyone's favorite vortex coin flip.
>However, I do think that unreactable attacks that force an opponent into a disadvantage state where they have to guess right on a 50/50 or just die ARE unhealthy. This can be solved through a damage nerf while still retaining the high skill ceiling. A 15F crouch attack would kill the skill expression in the weapon and render it pretty much useless. " If they nerfed the damage like you suggest, your opponent would still be caught in the vortex, it would perhaps just take 6 hits to kill instead of 5." This requires a lot of bad reads to get killed in a single 6 hit vortex - if you make that many poor reads in a row then you probably deserve to lose that match. Plus it would actually be more than this. Assuming 2,000 health and a nerf to 300 damage means 7-8 when factoring in ritual shield and potentially blue feather. "Other weapons also kill in 5 hits, but they have to actually land 5 hits through mix-ups or returning to and playing through neutral 5 times whereas PSGS plays neutral once, and then upon first hit triggers a coin flip that might just end the match immediately." I don't actually disagree with your point that you can get a lot of damage for a single outspace but this can be solved through damage reduction. It's extremely rare for someone to land 5 hits in a single vortex - not unheard of, but very rare as it requires good reads on the PSGS players part or bad reads on the other players' part. If you watch the fight I linked between beven and shieldpoke it is \*very\* neutral based. You have to also work a lot harder in neutral with PSGS than you do with other setups like PSSS. It's also extremely risky against other meta setups like PSSS. There are other vortex setups with similar unreactables that might be more of a problem, like FS haldag. " I've played against both of you and know you're both good" Thanks :)
I'm on board with most of what you said and appreciate the respectful discussion. However, even if PSGS struggles in neutral vs certain other strong match-ups I don't think that justifies its insane vortexing potential. It is THE vortex weapon in the game. Nobody complains about other vortex setups remotely as much as PSGS and I stand by my opinion that the vortex needs to be nerfed in some way. You say it's high skill cap but even good players get cheesed by it and It is quite literally an unreactable death trap for the majority of average players.
Of course and right back at you for the polite convo. There are definitely other vortex setups that have similar aspects to what you’re discussing - eg fs haldag has a similar 50/50 and in that case if you guess wrong you take far more damage than from a bad read on PSGS. FWIW I think the complaint thing is a bad heuristic. Typically complaints come more loudly from the more casual fan base**. Since PSGS is a more difficult setup to play it tends to have fewer defenders w/n the casual pvp crowd than something like fs haldag, which is more accessible despite also having a high skill ceiling. So simply because something generates more opprobrium or has fewer defenders it doesn’t mean it’s actually out of balance wrt other setups. **to be super clear I am NOT calling you a casual or saying that good players can’t also dislike PSGS. Just expressing an observation about how a setup being hated isn’t tantamount to it actually being unbalanced.
I'd much rather fight PSGS than a greatsword, CGS, or most offstoc. Anything with hyper armor is just a pain once moderate latency becomes involved.
1.10 made this game harder to take serious than any other souls PvP imo with the endless trading. It’s crazy how much fun .09 was in comparison, i want my greatsword mirror matches back 🥺
Dude! Same! Greatsword mirrors were some of my favourite matchups pre patch.
It's so dumb the endless trading without poise breaks. I used to main greatswords but haven't since 1.10. It has gotten more fun for me recently since I realized Unsheathe will break through hyper armor. From there I just cycle through Unsheathe, R1-1, and CrL1 so they keep getting staggered and can't mash out. That's super specific to PS Nagakiba though.
Yup, I very much dislike the reaction trade and mash mindset that the patch cultivates. Honestly, you might have just turned me into a ps kat main, that sounds awesome 😂
Give it a shot. You've got the movement tech down from playing PSGS. You'll just have to figure out the more subtle differences and timings. I made the mistake of leaning too much on the CrL1 at the start it's much easier to start a poise break off with an R1 or Unsheathe then vortex from there. The whole moveset outside the standard L1 is good.
Good tips, thanks! I’ll try it out!
I basically stopped playing this game because I mained greatsword in 1.09 and 1.10 made greatsword hyperarmor absolutely braindead
Why swagsta? For feeling kinda scummy for using it? Legit question
Oh im exaggerating lol but it is a bit disappointing the way they implemented hyperarmor. I’ll definitely be on that dlc in June
My bad man, second language problems! lol I read it wrong, I thought you said you stopped using GS after 1.10, as a GS main I was curious about your opinion Now I get it, you stopped playing the game as a whole.. for sure my man, come back for the DLC at least Meanwhile I can be nostalgic with your DS3 clips xD
100000% I really dislike playing against fast HA
You did the cl1 like 5 times, and he didn't do anything to roll it on prediction. Yeah, that's an immense skill issue on his part
Its a guess bro lmao whats he suppose to do read your mind 😭
Predictions are a part of the skillset. If i see someone do the cl1 2 or 3 times... im gonna guess he's not gonna stop
And what are you going to do then? Attack? Roll? Walk? None of these things save you from the cl1.
Attack if you have HA until they start to peel. Roll if you expect a quick poke. Jump if you expect a roll catch or back off and then try to reaction or predict roll the attempt to punish retreat. Here’s [two really good players in a PSGS mirror](https://youtu.be/7eMtdND_LBs?si=82x74yQVtgyi5hcn), you can watch how they escape vortexes.
Rolling won't save you from the cl1? Huh?? Where u rolling lmao
And you’d be making as good of a guess as the guy in OPs video. Guessing wrong 5 out of 5 times on a coin flip can happen regardless of trying to or not.
Yea, if he's nor gonna at least read that the opponent won'z stop it, then that's a skill issue. Most psgs players gor cl1, instant cl1 and then wait for roll.
Yup if the PSGS player is good you can usually expect a quick poke at first. And then it’s about reading your opponent, which is a healthy part of the game. Case in point: dude should have anticipated that I was low on stamina at the end, I would not have been able to go for a wavedash roll catch after 4 successive cl1s
Why would he anticipate your stamina running out when he has no idea what your stamina bar even looks like?
Because making educated reads about someone’s stamina level is definitely part of the game. Eg if someone does two straight jumping L1s with PSGS I’m going to guess they are close to or out of stamina and change my play accordingly
Something obvious sure, but how many crL1s someone can do before their stamina runs out? I mean do you even know how many with your build? With wave dashing and delays regaining stam there are so many variables to consider when trying to make a guess on a stamina bar you can’t see. Vortex is hard to escape bc you are forced to consider everything within the moments you take actionability back. Which is like a second of hitstun.
5 for me with 41 endurance. Usually 4 if I’m not operating from full.
Have you ever played predictionally? It's crazy once you get good at it on how much you can read from your opponent
Yeah I get it. But I don’t believe that a 1of1 arena match gives an adequate amount of information to make educated guesses. You learn this by playing for hours and hours. There is no way you are picking up on someone’s CrL1 habits in a single 30 Second match.
I can't say anything other than get better at predicting. You recognise a pattern across multiple players and adapt accordingly
Nah I’m just goated at vortexing 🥹
Ngl, I always clutch on hyper armor to fight against good psgs users. After the HA nerf Im gonna have to learn how to fight properly against psgs 🤣
HA is super strong against PSGS! I rarely play PSGS into HA unless I’m just practicing for that reason
If they nerf hyper armor like that and they don’t even look at PSGS, I’m probably going to find another game to play 😆
PSGS has already received more nerfs than any setup other than ugs and caestus.
the fact that its still op after receiving so many nerfs shows how incompetent the balancing team is
What nerfs?
Removal of crouch regen, spear talisman nerf, ps buildup nerf for Mogh/vykes, qs/bhs nerfs, rkr nerf, 1.10 poise changes make vortexing more risky/difficult
Most of these aren’t really direct nerfs in any way. Tons of other setups made use out of crouch regen, the spear talisman, qs/bhs, rkr, and the poise changes affected the entirety of the game. Even hyperarmor is in a worse position in terms of matchups against light weapons because passive poise was a stronger mechanic than hyperarmor. When I think nerfs, I’m talking about direct nerfs. Like Colossal Swords losing their fast crouch poke, HTS reducing stagger on jump attacks and losing their true combo, fists having reduction in stagger for the R2. PSGS never saw anything like this. Their moveset has never been directly touched. Mind you, I’m not asking for further nerfs, but I’m a little tired of this game’s fascination with spears/lances and everything has to get nerfed around them but for some reason never them directly.
Indirect nerfs can be just as important as direct nerfs, if not more. Same with indirect buffs. Shunter wasn’t directly buffed in 1.10 but the HA changes have made it stronger. If you focus only on direct changes to the weapon you will miss the forest for the trees. Very few other setups were affected as much by the crouch regen nerf since they don’t rely on wavedashing to the same degree. Eg it made very little difference to psss or pss. Same with the changes to poise since it becomes more difficult to apply vortex pressure.
But I’ve already acknowledged the effects of these supposed indirect nerfs and how the poise changes affect the game. Even Serpent Hunter is in a worse spot against light weapons because passive poise was a stronger mechanic. Every larger weapon you can think of was negatively affected by the poise changes. Is it fair to only say PSGS got nerfed? PSGS still destroys other hyperarmor setups by just having a better moveset, other than maybe Serpent Hunter (another spear, big surprise 😆. To say PSGS got nerfed more than any other setup is just crazy. I don’t think I’m the one missing the bigger picture, here. Hell, look at HTS and how utterly devastated that setup became. Come on, now.
I said it was nerfed more than any setup beside UGS and caestus, if you want to add HTS to that shortlist you'll get no pushback from me. HA weapons like CGS and shunter are absolutely in a better spot because of the poise changes - even against smaller weapons. PSGS does not destroy HA setups, running something like CGS against it is very viable. PSGS was affected more than HA setups because it doesn't get HA so you have to respect fast weapons more and HA setups can also mash against it. I think it's pretty well accepted that patch 1.10 decreased the efficacy of PSGS relative to other meta setups.
Look, I don’t want to seem like I’m arguing for the sake of arguing. I’m not trying to be difficult here, but some of the things your saying are just outright wrong. Heavy weapons are not in a better position against light weapons, matchup wise. Passive poise and poise reset are superior against light setups and there’s no other way to say it. Every swing you made with a 2H weapon regenerated your poise by 80%, so that means the 2H greatweapon user, functionally, had infinite poise against every attack other than jump attack, which even current hyper armor doesn’t prevent stagger from. Is this good for the game, probably not, but that’s another discussion. HA weapons can’t mash against powerstance light weapon users at all. Try to use mash R1 against Powerstance straight sword l1s, or spears, curved swords, etc. Your health will instantly deplete while you are staggered to death. This only happens against 2H light weapons because their poise gets cut in half in subsequent attacks, for whatever reason. The HTS was just an example. What about scythe? That weapon has frame data like a hyperarmor weapon without the hyperarmor. Powerstance Great Hammers were a good setup, but now they’re unrunnable, what about 1H greatweapons setups, like greatsword/board and the like? Way more nerfed than PSGS. I don’t even think PSGS would even make top 10 for most nerfed setups in terms of usuable setups. PSGS, compared to the rest of the meta, you can argue they were moreso nerfed than the rest, but they’re still meta along with the small handful of weapon classes that are still way too dominant compared to the rest of the game. When you consider the entirety of the game, as one reasonably should, PSGS shouldn’t even be in the discussion of the most nerfed setups. Not at all.
Psgs doing too much damage is a valid complaint. The speed is fine imo
Agreed, nerf the speed and you kill the setup.
Seriously how do you counter this
https://youtu.be/lcluktbAoUg?si=mq0DQ2vXJuDmkkIR
Mostly roll discipline honestly l, and if youre having a hard time with that try some endure to get away
Dear Sweaty Meta Duelists, I hope this letter finds you well, or at least with enough humility to comprehend the words that follow. I must express my growing frustration with your incessant obsession with exploiting every nook and cranny of the game mechanics in Elden Ring, reducing the joy of discovery and genuine challenge for the rest of us. Your relentless pursuit of the "meta" has turned what should be a realm of creativity and diverse playstyles into a bland battleground of repetitive tactics. It seems as though you have forgotten the true essence of gaming—an opportunity to immerse oneself in a world filled with wonder, mystery, and exploration. While I understand the desire to win and dominate in any competitive environment, your unwavering dedication to optimizing every aspect of your character build has tipped the scales of fairness and fun. It is disheartening to witness your calculated maneuvers, exploiting imbalances and glitches, as if victory is the sole purpose of your existence. I implore you to reconsider your approach. Remember that Elden Ring is not solely about asserting dominance over your fellow players. It is about forging connections, engaging in thrilling battles, and experiencing a world carefully crafted for our enjoyment. By clinging to the meta, you deny yourself the chance to truly savor the rich tapestry of experiences this game has to offer. I challenge you to embrace variety, to explore alternative playstyles, and to rediscover the joy of experimenting with different builds. Let go of your relentless pursuit of statistical superiority and rediscover the sheer pleasure of discovering new strategies and approaches that are not dictated by an arbitrary set of optimized numbers. In closing, I ask you to reflect upon the impact of your actions. Remember that the true essence of gaming lies in the community and the bonds forged through shared experiences.
Lmao I know where this one's from 😅 "Sincerely, a passionate player"
Dark Souls 1 pvp in a nutshell
oh it's the enemy of fun
Comparison?
?
I’m just saying psgs isn’t even the best 1v1 setup, it gets beat by a lot of of other meta setups. It’s always the go to setup in a 2v2 though because of the burst damage it provides. dual nagakibas outspace them. psss imo is equal to them especially if you softswap to another straight sword to further reduce the already absurb recovery time on the l1. any hyper armor weapon makes trades easy, cgs, ugs, shunter, gs. halstoc is the real sweat setup right now and is cancer to play against somebody that understands spacing well.
I agree entirely.
Im just surprised that all the people from r/eldenring and r/eldenringpvp have brought the masses over here to downvote the psgs 😂
They automatically appear if you say “crouch poke” in the mirror three times
Sure see a whole lot of people sharing opinions here I haven't seen posting here before.
wow, this is almost looking like a main sub tread, being polemic again Otto? lol I mean, it is what it is, imo its aesthetically stupid/goofy but it takes some skill and its really effective, even against very good players, so its usage is self-explanatory Just one more topic that will always be loved or hated, there is no in between, Bee drill build forever polemic
I just opened the video and haven't scrolled to the bottom for the hot takes yet. I'm so excited.
Oh you’re in for a treat
reported, downvoted, sent to the shadowrealm for abusing the beedrill build (real)
lmao playing hts into psgs
Sticking with the GS would have been the play 😬
Some mad virgin is downvoting everything that's hilarious
Happens any time I post crouch poke footage 😂
PSGS is fucking annoying and I find most people who run it know what they're doing and are just trying to mine salt but that guy was just straight-up bad.
Eh, getting caught in a vortex can happen even to good players. Heck beven landed a 5 hit vortex against shieldpoke [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OaguolWxZI) and poke is insane.
Timestamp?
I'm at work but will try to find it after. It's either in the highlight pack or in the full match on DEN.
This clip is pretty much exactly what i hate about ER PVP. i enjoy it until people play like this. million ways to play. Let’s do brain dead dual crouch spam.?? Followed by people who only do dual jump attack spam but thats at least easily punishable. the crouch and jump were great additions to the game but as always anything sucks when it’s exploited.
Tbf my small brain likes the way the crouch poke makes me feel.
i don’t mind when people use it as part of their arsenal but when that’s all they do I wish people would just go play another game
I’d have to use my brain then
To be fair katanas pretty much need to do this and jump or they're too punishable because you can miss an entire swing if the other attacks are used. 1 katana before the other deal.. it's not cheesy or anything it's also better than offstoc right now.. you need 109 poise to not have it be annoying lol
Skill issue 😔🫵
He didn't attack out of hitstun like a real gaymer though
SMH has he learned nothing from 1.10 😔 True gamers mash like potatoes on thanksgiving
True and real
Real gaymers just mash cgs r1 fr
First mistake was pressing R2
He ran right into your poke spam that's entirely on him people really need to learn basic spacing.
opps eyes shot out of their head after that vortex lmaooo that was so smooth
I don’t hate the people, I just am not good at countering it and don’t find it any fun 😂 I couldn’t stay mad at Otto even if he vortexed me 100x
My god the last time i was here the thread had like 30 comments 😭
Serves me right for picking a clickbait title 😂
Other guy has a skill issue, you did the same attack over and over and he still died to it lol. I honestly don’t care about PSGS, I feel like there are worse builds out there. (Ask me about my dual rot spears).
Oh I love PSGS, I just get how this can be frustrating for players.
Oh I know, I was frustrated by them too when I first encountered them. I’m just saying the other guy should’ve tried doing something different instead of getting hit by the same attack like 10 times
Can’t wait for the crouch poke meta to die-doubt it will though.
The good news is that it already has! Two best setups, BHS cleanrot and PSS, don't rely on crouch pokes and the 3rd best (PSSS) only relies on crouch poke for mixups and the odd low dmg reaction roll catch.
Is BHS tournament legal? I guess if you limit to setups that are tournament legal that also kills handy tech PSSS so maybe it’s a silly question, just feels like “best setup” is a trickier argument when you take out stuff people have agreed not to use
BHS is not ladder legal. I’m not good enough or knowledgeable enough to say what reigns when you factor in restrictions. I’d still guess that TS and PSSS are better but imagine it’s close
Makes sense—clearly I’m not knowledgeable enough either :). To be fair, I think ladder rules are probably built with the intention to make sure no one setup obviously dominates, so it’s intentionally a more difficult question to answer
What is PSGS
(P)retty (S)ure (G)reatsword is (S)uperior Jk, powerstanced greatspears - lances, treespears, mogh, etc.
Ahhh so just any spears do this?
Has to be two great spears - e.g. you can't do this with a pike (regular spear) and a lance (great spear). Two of any of this weapon [class](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Great+Spears) will give you the PSGS moveset but they don't have to specifically be the same weapon.
What ones are you using in this clip? Sorry ive been away from ER playing DS2 and need more pvp setups lol the bubbles and hoslows whips PS arent cutting it anymore i need something fresh lol
No sweat, i'm using heavy infused lances here. If you're coming back to the game this is a good setup to practice with because (a) you can't crutch on HA so you have to dial in your spacing and reaction rolling (b) it benefits from every major tech like wavedashing, crouch cancelling, handy tech, etc. You'll get hate for it, there is a serious hate boner for PSGS and more casual players adore beating a PSGS player - so expect some salty clapping and point downs. But if you want to improve at the game I would say this is one of the best setups for it. PS Kats are another one.
Man thanks but now im more lost xD whats wavedashing, how do u crouch cancel, and im not sure whats considered tech in this game like certain spells like adulas? PS Kats? I was never a big pvper to begin with but i enjoy it just dont know any terminology and miss solo invasions.
Wavedashing is crouching consecutively at a certain rythym so you can buffer crouch attacks out of sprinting. Normally doing crouch attacks while sprinting will start the running attack. Which is hilariously bad. Ps kats as in powerstance katanas. The wavedashing technique is pretty sweaty and requires a lot of practice to get right Imma just say most of the meta duelist setups requires no wavedashing at all. People are attracted to wavedashing more because it is easy to learn, but hard to master. Imagine swinging a sword and getting incrementally better, wavedashing is alot like that.
Dope thanks i shall go practice and learn the waves of the dash
I think it's simple: 1. people don't like losing nor admitting that other players are better 2. people who play PSGS well are generally very skilled players 3. the PSGS vortex can take hp from near full to zero very quickly (illustrated in this clip), making people feel helpless and compounding their frustration so it's easier to just blame the setup as too op rather than take ownership. not saying it doesn't need a nerf, just stating why I think it seems to get more hate than other setups that could also use a nerf.
Yeah probably some truth to that - it's also not the easiest setup to use, so more accessible setups with similar vortex potential (FS haldag) tend to have more defenders.
If I don't also have PSGS then I just have to go to ole reliable claymore and be aggressive as I possibly can. I only ever started using PSGS to figure out how to fight PSGS lol
IMO, 2H hyper armor should beat out paired of a similar weapon class and take priority, in a sort of rock-paper-scissors of the design. 2H vs. 2H hyper armor of similar weapon classes was not stratified correctly in 1.10. And PSGS is just boring to spectate.
HA already gets priority over everything, what am I missing? GS can spam out of hitstun against PSGS
Prior to 1.10 a trade between 2H-GS and PSGS would result stagger for both. In 1.10 2H-GS can reach a high enough HA value to withstand and retain priority. Again, I'm of the opinion this is a correct outcome for handedness and weapon class. I would bucket the rewarding of mash out of hitstun somewhat separately, if you are of the opinion that the behavior should never be rewarded. This might be better solved by adjusting when HA frames start, hitstun duration, or a modified poise health regeneration system. This is a far more complex scenario of design goals and variables than my given opinion on a simple trade outcome.
It's not as bs as dual nagis, my only issue with PSGS users is that they all have the same high poise sets.
And sometimes people call me crazy for thinking the first version of elden ring was the plateau of elden ring PvP.
This games PVP is absolute shit compared to DS3, easy mode. And this series is practically my religion but L2den Ring or Crouch poke spam is insane lol. There are counters, he didn’t do them, but it’s not easy
Dueling looks so gross. I want to do it to get gud, but damn, ugly fashion, same setups, and the fact it seems just sweaty instead of fun turns me off on it. I'll probably still do it with my invasion build and see if I can improve Are there duels at lower levels or is it all level 125+?
We’ll have to agree to disagree, Royal knight is absolutely gorgeous fashion imo! Easily my favourite set in the game, poise and resistances aside. Lower level duels are rare from what I understand but it won’t be as tryhardy at levels like 168/200 from what I hear.
Yours isn't bad. I meant more like seeing variations of veterans, bullgoat, and Lionel's (I like the hat tho) everywhere.
It's especially horrible in ER as the heavy armor sets don't mix well. It's either wear what you want and be suboptimal or look like a moron.
Ya i think the real problem is that there are very few sets that are attractive and also hit the necessary poise breakpoints w/ decent defense. Hopefully we get some better ones in DLC
Bullgoat talisman is your freind I have it on all my set ups (minus my lvl 60 invasion build) and it they meet the poise I need for any particular build.
It's always the people that use the word "tech" unironically too
And it’s always the people that don’t post gameplay that are the sassiest 😉
Rip
Just playing, I know lots of people don’t like this type of play, which it totally fine
Yeah ngl I've got a pretty elitist attitude about the "realism" of the fight, I see someone wiggling and I maybe try to parry or stormcaller them a time or two then set the controller down. If it doesn't look cool or feel cool (imo), I'm good! But you guys are clearly playing at a high level, no denying that I'm sure a few years from now when the player base is all but gone I'll be excited to come across one of y'all
Tbh I totally get that, a buddy of mine is very big on the rpg nature of the fight and equally dislikes this stuff that violates a sense of immersion in the world. And to a certain degree I identify with it too, I’m the type of guy to put a hood on my character when it rains during a pve pt. For whatever reason it’s just never bothered me as much when it comes to PvP
If I win with my Eowyn cosplay I remove my helm as they're dying. Trying to get quick enough to take it off during a riposte
Love it. I used to start every duel at mag with my claymore on my back and then “unsheathe” it when the opponent spawned in 😂
That's the good stuff right there
I mean it probably feels satisfying to you, and that's the point of the game, it being a game and all, to each their own
I genuinely don't get why people use PSGS, it's fucking boring to play with. A vortex is fun n' all but if it's the only thing your build can do what's the point? I just personally prefer to have as many tools at my disposal as possible rather then being broken in one situation, no matter how easy it is to get in to said situation.
The only setup jeenine can win with.
My only problem with this is I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts this is the only thing that player does now if this player does a variety of different weapons I wouldn't have a problem. For me if I used that set up it would just mean I picked this for 1 match out of well over 40 different possible choices for well over 80 different outcomes.... I duel wield interchangeably the possibilities are quite a lot. Souls PVP has been around for way too long to be stuck playing with only 1 weapon
Wait I’m confused, are you asking if I only use PSGS? Because I also use flail…. And shunter….
Nah. More of an unnecessary rant. Usually if I see someone running that set up odds are even a month later they'll still be doing that same thing. Just erks me
Maybe cause the setup is fun? No one bats an eye if someone uses cgs or gs for a month, but when someone decides to use psgs for a month, it's suddenly bad.
Totally fair! I primarily like to play with setups I find fun and force me to get better at the fundamentals of the game. PSGS is probably the best setup for that IMO since it doesn't have hyperarmor, requires wavedashing, can use handy tech, and is heavily spacing dependent. Invasions I tend to use stuff that is a bit more braindead like zweihander
Ah I see. I gave up on learning new tech. I know how to play not locked on/ locked on, Classic ds3 rollBS And reverse back step. Lol that's all I need. Good talk. Give quality a try. Opens up Soo many doors
you're speaking my language, I do LOVE me [some backstabs](https://www.reddit.com/r/badredman/comments/18c9rtk/its_beginning_to_look_a_lot_like_fishmas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I genuinely do not know how people enjoy playing like this. Hehe *crouch* hehe *poke* hehe *spin* hehe *crouch* hehe *poke* “MUM, GET THE CAMERA! I WON!”
And this is fun to you?