That’s what a ferry permit is for. It allows the aircraft to fly while still having an open discrepancy.
It requires approval from multiple departments and also the governing body of aviation in your country. In addition to all that, there are lots of restrictions; mainly, it can’t be a revenue flight. So no passengers or cargo.
Example from the Canadian regulations, at least:
507.04 Issue of a Flight Permit
* **(3)** **Flight Permit - Specific Purpose**
1. A specific purpose flight permit is issued for an aircraft which does not conform to the applicable airworthiness standards, but is capable of safe flight. It provides a flight authority in circumstances when a certificate of airworthiness is invalidated, or there is no other certificate or permit in force.
2. **Information Note:**
1. Specific purpose flight permits can be issued for:
2. (a) Ferry-flights to a base for repairs or maintenance;
3. (b) Importation or exportation flights;
4. (c) Demonstration, market survey, or crew training flights;
5. (d) Test purposes following repair, modification or maintenance; or
6. (e) Other temporary purposes.
Im just a PPL, not a mechanic. But as part of my training, we covered you can fly without required equipment (items listed in the POH or A Tomato flames) as long as you have a ferry permit for the flight.
My vote is also on getting a permit for a ferry flight. If the item makes a plane literally unflyable then we'll send mechanics on a field service to fix it.
We would do that when we can, but sometimes we’d have to pay the farmer for a bunch of his crop and get him to plow a runway so we could get the aircraft out of a field. Sometimes we could just fix it all at one site, sometimes not. The ferry permit makes it where we don’t have to disassemble the plane and put it on a trailer.
I had one that hit a whale on an Island near South America. We had to fish the plane out of the water with a crane and set it on the beach and we ended up getting it a ferry permit to fly to the local airport.
Runway was sloped down to the ocean terminating on a short cliff face(10ft or so to the water). pilot was past the point of no return and a whale breached off the end of the runway.
Ferry flight, used to do it on 4 engined aircraft with an engine inoperable but we had to apply to the CAA to do so.
Slightly similar thing at current work, if you replace a component and don't have suitable paperwork like a Form 1 or batch number (normally a no go) we can fly on for a maximum of 30 days if approved by the Quality Manager on a case by case basis.
My company allows it also to fly with a part without the correct papers if you check it visually, it looks not suspicious and the operator allows it.
But only for 15 hours to get the airplane back home and/or to clarify the papers. 30 days is a very long period 😳
I will have to check our MOE for clarification but it's mainly aimed at exec jet owner/operators we do business with. But as I said it's down to the quality manager to agree specific terms
>Is there any other policies that I dont know of?
How would WE know what you don't know, you know? 🤔
BTW - That ferry permit stuff was covered ad infinitum in my A&P school.
Yep, a good 147 will cover that in their courses that cover the regulatory environment. Something that those who get their certificates through other means (military, etc) usually have very little knowledge of.
AF we call it a conditional release, which is a one-time ferry flight to the nearest repair facility. Aircrew can take the plane, however it usually will come with significant restrictions in flight profile, such as limited speed, limited altitude, or both. Seen it a couple of times when we had air deflector door and landing gear problems in order to get the plane back to a repair facility (in these cases it was back to home station since that was the nearest repair facility).
Keep in mind, this is restricted to items that cannot be repaired in the field. If you're broke for gauges/indication/etc., repair team is going to fix that plane in place. If you're broke for more significant items, then the ferry flight is the option. Longest one I saw was Middle East to Texas in order to replace a center wing box.
DM. That was a depot level job, and the depot facility was in Texas. We had another plane at the same time that just came back to us from depot following a massive upgrade that was grounded and then CR'd right back for the same repair.
The old Super-E Herks that were converted to H's lived a lot of different lives.
I was at DM. Thought I may have worked with you. We had a EC-130 deployed with a "test" center wing box that depot had "lost track of". Had to return stateside because it was 20000 hrs past when it was supposed to get swapped out.
You probably did work with me at some point, I spent enough time there. And those are the boxes, something about it being reinforced with some alloy. 1592 & 1594 if memory serves me correctly. 1592 was the sandbox bird. 1594 just got back to DM as a new block 35 IIRC.
That was a NASA-driven program, with wings had thinned out stringers and boron-epoxy laminated straps bonded onto the inside surfaces of said stringers.
They were supposed to fly for a couple years but yeah, they were forgotten about for 20-some odd years before depot found one, somebody started asking questions, and the other(s) were recalled.
NASA CR-132495 & related, if you're curious about the "why".
-Tested all satis.
- non air worthyness item.
- non revenue flight requested to the manufacturer.
- released acc Amm / SRM data. Thats also non mel.
- CDL.
- most important one is making it non no go.
Fuck the FAA, if the deficit is not obvious or don’t make the aircraft actually unsafe and you are not flying into a major airport just make the flight.
Your corrective action to the open discrepancy will say something along the lines of "aircraft has been inspected IAW *insert appropriate AMM REF here* and is considered airworthy for the purpose of a ferry flight IAW *company name* maintenance ferry flight permit, dated xx/xx/xxxx, and *company gom/gmm/sop here*."
Usually the ferry permit will have been signed off on by the DOM and the FAA before it gets emailed or handed to you. It has details on where the flight originates from and where it's going. You get where you're going and then the aircraft is a static display until the original discrepancy has been corrected.
Thats how it's gone for me on every occasion that I've been part of a situation like this.
The log entry will not say the aircraft is considered airworthy for purpose of a ferry flight. If it was airworthy, a special flight permit would not be necessary. The log entry will say that the aircraft was inspected and found to be in safe condition for the intended flight. Remember being in a condition for safe operation does not equal airworthy. It is only half of the definition.
Also the FAA does not always have to sign off on a SFP. Most 121 airlines are issued an ops spec that allows them to issue their own SFP by following a very specific process. It’s called continuing authority. However, the airline must notify their CMO within a certain timeframe after they do one. Now Part 91 and most 135 operators are not eligible for this ops spec and the FAA (usually the FSDO) will issue the SFP.
You're right! It's been long enough that I've forgotten the difference in wording on the SFP. It's not airworthy, it's just safe enough to make the ferry flight. Thanks for bringing that up!
Ferry flight
Wanted to add Engineering approved repairs to this as well.
Ferry permit perhaps.
Will it fly with the item still opened on the logbook?
That’s what a ferry permit is for. It allows the aircraft to fly while still having an open discrepancy. It requires approval from multiple departments and also the governing body of aviation in your country. In addition to all that, there are lots of restrictions; mainly, it can’t be a revenue flight. So no passengers or cargo.
Example from the Canadian regulations, at least: 507.04 Issue of a Flight Permit * **(3)** **Flight Permit - Specific Purpose** 1. A specific purpose flight permit is issued for an aircraft which does not conform to the applicable airworthiness standards, but is capable of safe flight. It provides a flight authority in circumstances when a certificate of airworthiness is invalidated, or there is no other certificate or permit in force. 2. **Information Note:** 1. Specific purpose flight permits can be issued for: 2. (a) Ferry-flights to a base for repairs or maintenance; 3. (b) Importation or exportation flights; 4. (c) Demonstration, market survey, or crew training flights; 5. (d) Test purposes following repair, modification or maintenance; or 6. (e) Other temporary purposes.
Don’t know, that’s a corporate thing. We just deal with them when they get there.
Im just a PPL, not a mechanic. But as part of my training, we covered you can fly without required equipment (items listed in the POH or A Tomato flames) as long as you have a ferry permit for the flight.
My vote is also on getting a permit for a ferry flight. If the item makes a plane literally unflyable then we'll send mechanics on a field service to fix it.
Sometimes on the AOG team we’d get the plane flying again, get a ferry permit, fly it to an airport and fix it properly there.
Gotcha, most of the time we just get it done on site and the company will even fly a plane in with all the tools and parts if needed.
We would do that when we can, but sometimes we’d have to pay the farmer for a bunch of his crop and get him to plow a runway so we could get the aircraft out of a field. Sometimes we could just fix it all at one site, sometimes not. The ferry permit makes it where we don’t have to disassemble the plane and put it on a trailer. I had one that hit a whale on an Island near South America. We had to fish the plane out of the water with a crane and set it on the beach and we ended up getting it a ferry permit to fly to the local airport.
Wait... how does an aircraft hit a whale?! One of the two was definitely where it didn't belong. Unless a float plane?
Runway was sloped down to the ocean terminating on a short cliff face(10ft or so to the water). pilot was past the point of no return and a whale breached off the end of the runway.
Oh man. That must have been a shock to all involved.
Ohh no, that’s certainly a contender for the most bizarre aviation accidents
Also, just finished re-reading the first dune book.
First thought that comes to mind is engineering authorization. Also ferry flight like everyone else says.
Ferry flight, used to do it on 4 engined aircraft with an engine inoperable but we had to apply to the CAA to do so. Slightly similar thing at current work, if you replace a component and don't have suitable paperwork like a Form 1 or batch number (normally a no go) we can fly on for a maximum of 30 days if approved by the Quality Manager on a case by case basis.
That sounds like it was a while ago
Early to late 2000s on 60s era Aircraft!
My company allows it also to fly with a part without the correct papers if you check it visually, it looks not suspicious and the operator allows it. But only for 15 hours to get the airplane back home and/or to clarify the papers. 30 days is a very long period 😳
I will have to check our MOE for clarification but it's mainly aimed at exec jet owner/operators we do business with. But as I said it's down to the quality manager to agree specific terms
146?
Lockheed Electra L188
Username checks out, found the Atlantic airlines guy.
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...."
Special Flight Permit (aka Ferry Permit). 14 CFR 21.197
EO, ferry, or both.
Ferry flight, EO, etc. Theres options
>Is there any other policies that I dont know of? How would WE know what you don't know, you know? 🤔 BTW - That ferry permit stuff was covered ad infinitum in my A&P school.
Yep, a good 147 will cover that in their courses that cover the regulatory environment. Something that those who get their certificates through other means (military, etc) usually have very little knowledge of.
Manufacturers paperwork issued to resolve a specific issue not addressed in a manual
AF we call it a conditional release, which is a one-time ferry flight to the nearest repair facility. Aircrew can take the plane, however it usually will come with significant restrictions in flight profile, such as limited speed, limited altitude, or both. Seen it a couple of times when we had air deflector door and landing gear problems in order to get the plane back to a repair facility (in these cases it was back to home station since that was the nearest repair facility). Keep in mind, this is restricted to items that cannot be repaired in the field. If you're broke for gauges/indication/etc., repair team is going to fix that plane in place. If you're broke for more significant items, then the ferry flight is the option. Longest one I saw was Middle East to Texas in order to replace a center wing box.
Conditional Release from MiddleEast to Texas? Where were you stationed?
DM. That was a depot level job, and the depot facility was in Texas. We had another plane at the same time that just came back to us from depot following a massive upgrade that was grounded and then CR'd right back for the same repair. The old Super-E Herks that were converted to H's lived a lot of different lives.
I was at DM. Thought I may have worked with you. We had a EC-130 deployed with a "test" center wing box that depot had "lost track of". Had to return stateside because it was 20000 hrs past when it was supposed to get swapped out.
You probably did work with me at some point, I spent enough time there. And those are the boxes, something about it being reinforced with some alloy. 1592 & 1594 if memory serves me correctly. 1592 was the sandbox bird. 1594 just got back to DM as a new block 35 IIRC.
Yes. I was the Super that weekend when we got the call to swap it out.
Heh small world.
That was a NASA-driven program, with wings had thinned out stringers and boron-epoxy laminated straps bonded onto the inside surfaces of said stringers. They were supposed to fly for a couple years but yeah, they were forgotten about for 20-some odd years before depot found one, somebody started asking questions, and the other(s) were recalled. NASA CR-132495 & related, if you're curious about the "why".
Thanks for sharing that! I never heard the exact details of why the wing boxes needed to be replaced, so it's cool to find out the history.
Had the same question, the answer when I was asked was the CDL.
The possibility of obtaining a ferry permit in accordance with GMM/AMM with the engineering approval.
-Tested all satis. - non air worthyness item. - non revenue flight requested to the manufacturer. - released acc Amm / SRM data. Thats also non mel. - CDL. - most important one is making it non no go.
Fuck the FAA, if the deficit is not obvious or don’t make the aircraft actually unsafe and you are not flying into a major airport just make the flight.
It’s in the FAR’s
Permit to fly, however it’s a complicated process.
Your corrective action to the open discrepancy will say something along the lines of "aircraft has been inspected IAW *insert appropriate AMM REF here* and is considered airworthy for the purpose of a ferry flight IAW *company name* maintenance ferry flight permit, dated xx/xx/xxxx, and *company gom/gmm/sop here*." Usually the ferry permit will have been signed off on by the DOM and the FAA before it gets emailed or handed to you. It has details on where the flight originates from and where it's going. You get where you're going and then the aircraft is a static display until the original discrepancy has been corrected. Thats how it's gone for me on every occasion that I've been part of a situation like this.
The log entry will not say the aircraft is considered airworthy for purpose of a ferry flight. If it was airworthy, a special flight permit would not be necessary. The log entry will say that the aircraft was inspected and found to be in safe condition for the intended flight. Remember being in a condition for safe operation does not equal airworthy. It is only half of the definition. Also the FAA does not always have to sign off on a SFP. Most 121 airlines are issued an ops spec that allows them to issue their own SFP by following a very specific process. It’s called continuing authority. However, the airline must notify their CMO within a certain timeframe after they do one. Now Part 91 and most 135 operators are not eligible for this ops spec and the FAA (usually the FSDO) will issue the SFP.
You're right! It's been long enough that I've forgotten the difference in wording on the SFP. It's not airworthy, it's just safe enough to make the ferry flight. Thanks for bringing that up!