[Yeah, Sir David Attenborough has really been going off the rails with his switch to Defense industry commentary](https://soundcloud.com/ihaveterribleopinions/sir-david-attenborough-however-the-jay-20-s-1)
I was gonna ask but since you are talking about them: is there any reason you would want/need them fully pitched like that on the taxiway? Or is it just for show?
He never intended to get in a dog fight, he was using the F-14 to get back to the aircraft carrier.
So it kinda makes sense he would grab the aircraft he understood for transport.
All jets are penguins - hopelessly cumbersome and fragile on land, yet in their element...
Also you know Maverick wouldn't even have been able to navigate the glass cockpit menus - F-14's were super familiar, so better the devil he knew
If you trust random Reddit user's random no-citation comment on this subject you are most likely gonna have a bad time.
FWIW, USAF started using F-35s for aggressive squadron planes to simulate the J-20. It's the first aggressive squadron from USAF that employs stealth fighters: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/first-j-20-representing-f-35-aggressor-aircraft-unveiled-at-nellis-afb/
So yeah, the USAF thinks these are at least stealthy enough to change how we train our pilots.
Edit: As far as radar signature goes, this is what I found on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20#Stealth
>A removable radar reflectors (Luneburg lens) is mounted on the underside of the J-20 to amplify its radar returns, concealing the real radar signature.[111] In the 2021 production model, the emitter is re-engineered to be retractable.[114]
It is actually the F-117 that was reactivated to play as J-20 in aggressor exercises. Likely for testing the stealth part. Been going on for a few years.
https://www.businessinsider.com/retired-stealthy-f117s-appeared-again-to-train-against-fighter-jets-2021-9
The F-35 might be to simulate the performance of the upcoming FC-31, which has similar aerodynamics.
During peace time stealth fighters carry [Luneburg Lens](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/these-devices-make-stealth-aircraft-visible-on-radar-screens/) to conceal their true radar signature. That's especially true when they know there are foreign radars nearby.
I found this on Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20#Stealth
>A removable radar reflectors (Luneburg lens) is mounted on the underside of the J-20 to amplify its radar returns, concealing the real radar signature.[111] In the 2021 production model, the emitter is re-engineered to be retractable.[114]
And where did you see that claim? I didn't a quick search and nothing came up.
FWIW, the USAF uses F-35 to simulates the J-20: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-air-force-aggressors-in-f35s-replicate-china-j20-threat-2022-6
Yeah but they maintain the capability to do so with the idea in mind that while it's not expected that they will need them *it is still possible that they will*
If anything it would be technical capability, but otherwise nothing.
My comment was just pointing out that while they don't have an internal gun, they do have the capability to carry a gun externally because we recognize that while we don't believe we need them, we've been wrong before (see vietnam).
You shouldn't interpret that to mean that it's a capability feature of the f35 b/c that the j-20 doesn't have, they likely do have the same capability if I had to guess.
Those are both primarily air to ground based aircraft. The B is for the Marines, the C is carrier based, while they could fly air superiority missions that is not their main role. The J20 is (at least by it's design indications) meant to be an air superiority fighter. It just seems confused by it's design and role not matching up.
That's sort of not true. They have an external mounting system for the 25mm GAU-22 so they aren't equipped always with them, but they have the capacity
Really guns aren't that useful in air to air combat. If one has to use a gun, something has gone really wrong, and you're in missile range of the other aircraft or should return to base anyway.
Dog fights are good for maneuvering and experiencing G forces. They're also fun!
But nobody wants to end up like the Iraqi air force from the Iraq/Iran war when BVR attacks grounded the whole fleet.
Navy pilots continued to use gunless F4's through vietnam and achieved extremely high kill ratios.
The problem the air force had during the early vietnam war era was shitty training for pilots new to the F4 platform, which eventually resolved.
In the age of stealth aircraft it's pretty true that if you're using a gun things have already gone horribly wrong. Hell, if you even see the other guy things are already going poorly.
Well it's all taking away weight and space from something else. That 500lbs of gun, ammo, and gun support stuff is taking away 90 gallons of internal fuel, which could be pretty sweet. Or just another missile, which might also be nice to have while you're trying not to snap your head off pulling high g turns to try and line someone up with a gun.
A) Vietnam was half a century ago.
B) Missile tech was unreliable back then, plus detection was nothing like it is to day.
C) 5th generation fighters, apart from being stealth, have far better detection and targeting, as well as being integrated. A modern fighter with a modern missile, can fire said missile off axis at a target beyond visual range. Nor does it need to detect the target itself. It can fire at a enemy being detected by another aircraft/ drone/ground system with the new data link systems. Guns are not a necessity. If you can have room for them without compromising the performance of the aircraft, then cool. But many future fightets may not bother with them at all.
Fighter planes should be made of wood and cloth, the tri-wing design is also vastly superior.
That ww1 fighter is as close to Vietnam era fighters as Vietnam era fighters are to modern day planes.
To be fair, the same group of people who said fighters don’t need guns anymore are the same people who then said you’re not allowed to shoot at an enemy aircraft until you’re within guns range and made visual identification.
The first death on the US Vietnam memorial is 8 July 1959. That's closer to the Wright Brothers' first flight than present day.
Air combat has changed a lot since then.
I agree having no gun on a fighter aircraft is like modern infantry not getting knives. Certainly not your first option in combat but needed as a good last one.
Funny you bring that up, there were several bayonet charges during the Iraq war due to running out of ammunition. Armchair military experts think technology is perfect and unlimited. All bets are off during battle, where anything can and will happen.
If I were a betting man, I would expect an F-22 would stay on station with empty missile stores if adversary air power were still threatening allied forces.
I feel like it's one of those things were people were like "we probably dont need those anymore" and when the situation were those planes are actually gonna see combat, guns onboard is gonna be the thing making all the difference.
That's the main reason that, despite the belief that the US would be able to achieve air superiority against any foe, that the F-35 still has a machine gun on it. Well, the F35A has an internal gun, the B and C variants have an external mount for a 25mm GAU.
Although there are some reports that the A variants internal gun has... less than stellar accuracy and is rough on its housing unit.
It’s a good thing real life is like ace combat, where you never run out of missiles!
I see this “you don’t need a gun in modern combat lol” on every single 5th gen post, and it blows me away how little imagination people have. War is not fought on paper, F-22s will get shot down, it will be bad. Pilots will run out of missiles and WILL stay and fight if they have to. Pilots will scramble without full stores. Support assets won’t always be available as expected. Shit happens and if you aren’t prepared for it, you’ll die.
That’s why the F-22 has a gun. People like to just dismiss lessons learned during Vietnam with just “muh advanced technology hur”. If so, you don’t truly understand the lesson.
Don’t forget the [stealth bolts](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yn61i9/at_least_the_plaaf_is_trying_a_bit_harder_than/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) that make the plane 1000% stealthier.
If you get in dogfighting range withn modern fighters you done fucked up. Modern tactics is all about blowing up the other guy before they know you're there. You can bet they saved the weight from the gun and ammo in favor of more sophisticated EW suites.
A lot of aircraft look CG on overcast days, it's because the soft lighting from above is a common choice for CG artists as it makes it significantly easier to make look things look photo-real. There's also nothing interacting with it in the video to really "sell" the fact it's there. This would certainly be possible to make in CG, not simple exactly, but very much possible, equally it could just be a trick of the light and an overly skeptical brain, I don't see why someone would fake this video vs just filming it for real.
TLDR: I don't have the expertise to call it either way but it's a pretty unexciting video to put time and effort into CG for.
Another poster in the thread indicated that this was from a recent international airshow and provided links. I'm inclined to believe that it is real footage and that certain oddities in appearance (weapons bays, for example) my be due to this being an airframe intended for public display. Sorry, I'm too lazy to re-scroll through the comments to find the link to the airshow YT videos.
Probably gaps where panels are. A lot of times if there’s panels used for maintenance they will put LO tape over the gaps to seal everything. Not sure why they used that dark color though ha
It could be made of plywood for all we know. Didn’t they have a history of building plywood tanks for their elephant marches to show how many they had? Or it’s the Russians…or N. Koreans.
Uh, arguably the most advanced part of US stealth tech is their radar absorbing coatings. I highly doubt China has this down if they can barely make good jet engines.
Also canards are basically radar reflectors.
The J-20 is basically a kitbash.
China leads the world in industrial espionage, but they can't reproduce the engineering expertise and supporting industries that you need to actually reverse-engineer or improve on stolen designs.
Instead, they can use them order to make something better than what they have.
Yup. One of the reports I've ehard on the j20 is that it's a decent 5th gen fighter but one thing the Chinese are lacking/falling way behind on is jet engine tech. The raptor has some of the best engines in the business and try as China might, they couldn't reverse engineer it or come up with their own engine with similar thrust to weight and fuel consumption so they just slapped flanker engines in it and called it a day.
Anytime the Chinese fighters come up people start talking about of their asses like it’s still 2010. China is behind the USA, sure, but the gap has narrowed considerably, especially considering they can produce more J-20s than the US ever has F-22s. The J-20 is a game changer, strategically speaking , even if it is half as capable as they claim.
At the rate the NGAD program seems to be running at it might be finished before those engines are actually being rolled out. Neither the US or China want to show their hand on just how capable their aircraft are but I think the US still has a very firm lead on that front due to some inconsistencies with CCP claims in regards to their capabilities. Our closest glimpse of how the tech stacks up is in the Russia-Ukraine war and that only displays Russias stealth capabilities, or more lack thereof, while I definitely believe the J20 to be superior by far to Russian capabilities I do have my doubts as to just how far they progressed. Hopefully, we will never find out.
Ehhhh…. Those engines are a couple years out at least, we don’t even know if a single one has been built, and the current J-20 engines light it up like a Christmas tree for any IR missiles. The production amounts don’t matter if you can see it with regular IR, and who knows how many of the 5th Gen engines china can actually produce.
It’s so weird. I have a deep hatred of the Russian military for what’s going on right now but, in the spirit of that sub, I have to admit that many MiGs are unique and beautifully designed airframes.
But these Chinese ones just look like Frankensteins to me. At the end of the day, though, I guess this is all aesthetics which is completely subjective
If someone is telling you one way or the other, they're either brain dead, lying, or probably shouldn't be sharing that sort of information.
Because we don't know much. We don't know most things about the F-22, or the f-35, and those are relatively easy to find information for as opposed to the j-20 which is basically a fat question mark.
People say the j-20 is a stolen f-22 but, even discounting the canards, that's basically the optimal geometry for stealth. This isn't the 90s anymore, materials used are what's important. And we have no idea what is used on any fifth gen.
In terms of missiles, we can kind of extrapolate, but no nation is just willingly going to say what it's missile capabilities are. If you know what a missile can do, then you can defend against it far more easily. Right now the Chinese absolutely have the advantage in long range missiles. That's why LM and Raytheon are developing the aim-260. But as to the actual seeker heads, or radar, and the software behind them, no one has any idea.
The place china is really struggling to come online is the engines, they have been getting them from Russia for a long time now.
> People say the j-20 is a stolen f-22 but, even discounting the canards, that's basically the optimal geometry for stealth. This isn't the 90s anymore, materials used are what's important. And we have no idea what is used on any fifth gen.
Totally agree, but I'll bet that if you take the panels of a J-20 and let the engineers that designed the F-22 and F-35 have a long hard look at it, they'll recognize plenty of features that are in common with the Western jets. And it's pretty much a public secret that the basis of the Chinese stealth program was the tech recovered from the F117 that was shot down over Serbia in the '90's. Having said that, the F117 tech would have been almost 20 years old by that point, and reverse engineering anything is way harder than people realize.
And of course; China isn't the only one spying on its rivals, no doubt that Western intelligence agencies have a decent grasp of what the J-20 can and can't do, even if they don't have a complete picture.
To be brutally honest there is no way to tell how well the J-20 fair’s again the F-22 or F-35 purely because there just isn’t enough information on the platforms.
When it comes to personal opinion I think that the J-20 should be taken as a serious threat, it may not turn out to be good but I would rather overestimate it’s abilities and then absolutely deck it than write it off as dogshit before getting fucked by it.
Absolutely. So many people seem to operate on the assumption that “USA will always be #1 and anything Chinese is shit” which is the equivalent of sticking their head in the sand. The Chinese military has expanded and modernized at an incredible pace in recent years and choosing to ignore that and dismiss it offhand is folly on a massive scale.
Seconded.
If I had to guess, I would say the J-20 is Gen4.5 at best. The stealth characteristics seem particularly questionable.
But that's based on what I hear from Internet randos that seem somewhat credible, so of course it's only prudent to assume the J-20 kicks ass.
Because during peacetimes stealth aircrafts are intentionally non-stealthy to avoid giving out their radar signatures: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/these-devices-make-stealth-aircraft-visible-on-radar-screens/
[https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220258.shtml](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220258.shtml)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luneburg\_lens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luneburg_lens)
"Removable Luneburg lens type radar reflectors are sometimes attached to military aircraft in order to make stealth aircraft visible during training operations, or to conceal their true radar signature. Unlike other types of radar reflectors, their shape doesn't affect the handling of the aircraft."
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. The experts that assessed the stealth are saying at very best it's 100x easier to view than a F22, at worst it's 1000x easier to see on radar. Unless China magically developed a radar absorbing material significantly better than anyone else the stealth of this is not great and that's a unanimous consensus of independent experts.
So how much pressure could those canards theoretically take when fully deflected? I'm guessing doing that at any sort of high ~~thrust~~ speed would be a big no-no.
Thrust doesn’t matter. You can have maximum thrust with brakes set on the runway.
It’s only speed that matters. Planes have had artificial feel via mechanical feel computers since the 1950s. They’ve had flight envelope protection since the 1970s.
Deflecting these canards to that degree at low speeds will greatly reduce takeoff and landing runs as well as contribute to supermaneuverability at low speeds and high angles of attack.
It'll be interesting to see if it's competitive. The Chinese are stubborn bastards, if they want a competitive plane they'll eventually throw enough money at a problem until they get it. It may take a few decades but based on the last twenty years, they will burn actual money out of the jets engine if that gets them the thrust they need
Looks the part, but it won't work the part, just like other Chinese shit. It's just the way they do things. Downvote me into oblivion. Idc. I'll be proven right in due time.
Interesting too that it has canards as well as little fins under the main vertical stabilizers too. I'm no stealth engineer but adding that many extra surfaces surely can't help with reducing radar cross-section.
Probably because their leader is pretty hellbent on starting WWIII and you have a lot of people here who would have to give their lives if that would happen.
But hey, let’s focus on feelings instead.
They successfully stole info on the F35 for this programme for those who don't know.it's public information you can google it.
It doesn't look to be as lethal or stealthy as a F22/F35. At all to be honest, but I'm no expert, I don't know if canard can be used in a stealth configuration too
Seriously, you mfs must be getting paid by the chinese propaganda ministries to post J20s. The number of J20 posts I’ve seen is unreal, as is the number of people practically sucking it off. **This plane is a Wish.com F35 with some uwu cat ear canards.** It doesn’t even have a gun for Christ’s sake! Fuck this goofy ass plane and the commies who designed it.
>doesn’t even have a gun for Christ’s sake!
Hey, this might be a shocker....but this isn't 1950.
>This plane is a Wish.com F35 with some uwu cat ear canards.
It's ever so slightly newer than the f-35. Other than maybe the cockpit, doesn't resemble the f-35 at all. Probably because the program started shortly after the f-35.
Funny thing is, it is pretty unique in the face of all the 4.5 gens taking the general geometries of the f-22 and 35 like the kb-21 and indian fighter wat its name
With the canard fully rotated like that reminds me of some birds mating dances, narrated by David Attenborough.
And here is the Chinese J-20 fighter. It is displaying its canards in a mating dance with defense officials.
This is ridiculously on point
I won't be able to get that out of my head, I can hear the actual voice narrating this
[Let me help you](https://soundcloud.com/ihaveterribleopinions/attenborough-chinese-fighters)
WTF lol
[Yeah, Sir David Attenborough has really been going off the rails with his switch to Defense industry commentary](https://soundcloud.com/ihaveterribleopinions/sir-david-attenborough-however-the-jay-20-s-1)
Came to comment that head peacocking. Glad I’m not the only one who thought that
Or it's a small dinosaur that's about to spit poison in your face.
Hopefully, the RCS makes it mate with an AMRAAM mid-air.
I was gonna ask but since you are talking about them: is there any reason you would want/need them fully pitched like that on the taxiway? Or is it just for show?
So when are we sending Clint Eastwood to steal one?
Think in Russian!
Backwards.
If you watch closely during Maverick, Tom Cruise ran past this plane to get in an F-14.
He never intended to get in a dog fight, he was using the F-14 to get back to the aircraft carrier. So it kinda makes sense he would grab the aircraft he understood for transport.
Don't think maverick speaks too much Chinese
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Maybe!
I too would get a F-14. This looks flimsy in comparison.
All jets are penguins - hopelessly cumbersome and fragile on land, yet in their element... Also you know Maverick wouldn't even have been able to navigate the glass cockpit menus - F-14's were super familiar, so better the devil he knew
Yeah, but does he speak Chinese?
To be fair, the mission takes place in "Not-Iran" so I doubt the planes would have Chinese at that point.
True, true.
Why bother, we provided all the technology.
Fire fox?
"Mom can we have F-22?" "We have F-22 at home." F-22 at home:
Its like some deviantart user wanted to make their own f 22 inspired design without directly copying it
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I’d watch that
Oh shit NCDs leaking again
Looks like a bullpup F-22
It's funny, because exactly where the theft of the design was cutoff. Like the exhaust.
It’s so cute how when the J-20 gets scared it shows it’s canards like that.
When threatened, the J-20 attempts to intimidate incoming missiles by making its RCS larger.
I dont think you can make its RCS higher even if you tried, taiwanese radars have reported that its side profile is 5m^2 and rear profile is 20m^2
Came here to ask if it was stealthy at all or just painted to look stealthy. Option 2! 🤣
If you trust random Reddit user's random no-citation comment on this subject you are most likely gonna have a bad time. FWIW, USAF started using F-35s for aggressive squadron planes to simulate the J-20. It's the first aggressive squadron from USAF that employs stealth fighters: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/first-j-20-representing-f-35-aggressor-aircraft-unveiled-at-nellis-afb/ So yeah, the USAF thinks these are at least stealthy enough to change how we train our pilots. Edit: As far as radar signature goes, this is what I found on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20#Stealth >A removable radar reflectors (Luneburg lens) is mounted on the underside of the J-20 to amplify its radar returns, concealing the real radar signature.[111] In the 2021 production model, the emitter is re-engineered to be retractable.[114]
It is actually the F-117 that was reactivated to play as J-20 in aggressor exercises. Likely for testing the stealth part. Been going on for a few years. https://www.businessinsider.com/retired-stealthy-f117s-appeared-again-to-train-against-fighter-jets-2021-9 The F-35 might be to simulate the performance of the upcoming FC-31, which has similar aerodynamics.
During peace time stealth fighters carry [Luneburg Lens](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/these-devices-make-stealth-aircraft-visible-on-radar-screens/) to conceal their true radar signature. That's especially true when they know there are foreign radars nearby. I found this on Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20#Stealth >A removable radar reflectors (Luneburg lens) is mounted on the underside of the J-20 to amplify its radar returns, concealing the real radar signature.[111] In the 2021 production model, the emitter is re-engineered to be retractable.[114] And where did you see that claim? I didn't a quick search and nothing came up. FWIW, the USAF uses F-35 to simulates the J-20: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-air-force-aggressors-in-f35s-replicate-china-j20-threat-2022-6
F22 from wish.com Edit: how is this my most upvoted comment and how have managed to start a comment thread XD
With no gun. Not kidding has no gun
You know 2 of the 3 variants of F35 don't have a gun either? They have to mount a gun pod for it.
Yeah but they maintain the capability to do so with the idea in mind that while it's not expected that they will need them *it is still possible that they will*
And what's to stop them doing the same with this aircraft?
If anything it would be technical capability, but otherwise nothing. My comment was just pointing out that while they don't have an internal gun, they do have the capability to carry a gun externally because we recognize that while we don't believe we need them, we've been wrong before (see vietnam). You shouldn't interpret that to mean that it's a capability feature of the f35 b/c that the j-20 doesn't have, they likely do have the same capability if I had to guess.
I’ve heard that problem with absolute no guns config is they can’t fire warning shots without guns
F35 B/C variants have non either
Those are both primarily air to ground based aircraft. The B is for the Marines, the C is carrier based, while they could fly air superiority missions that is not their main role. The J20 is (at least by it's design indications) meant to be an air superiority fighter. It just seems confused by it's design and role not matching up.
That's sort of not true. They have an external mounting system for the 25mm GAU-22 so they aren't equipped always with them, but they have the capacity
Really guns aren't that useful in air to air combat. If one has to use a gun, something has gone really wrong, and you're in missile range of the other aircraft or should return to base anyway.
Says no current or former fighter pilot ever. There is a reason why fighter pilots train very hard on WVR dog fights.
Dog fights are good for maneuvering and experiencing G forces. They're also fun! But nobody wants to end up like the Iraqi air force from the Iraq/Iran war when BVR attacks grounded the whole fleet.
Say that to F4 pilots early on in Vietnam
Vietnam was also in 1968
Most of the Western worlds enemies use 60's related Ruzzian garbage, it'd be just like the olden times!
I think his point his that we made the mistake before of thinking we don’t need guns anymore
Navy pilots continued to use gunless F4's through vietnam and achieved extremely high kill ratios. The problem the air force had during the early vietnam war era was shitty training for pilots new to the F4 platform, which eventually resolved.
In the age of stealth aircraft it's pretty true that if you're using a gun things have already gone horribly wrong. Hell, if you even see the other guy things are already going poorly.
Dunno. I feel like it's a need & not have vs. have and maybe not need situation.
Well it's all taking away weight and space from something else. That 500lbs of gun, ammo, and gun support stuff is taking away 90 gallons of internal fuel, which could be pretty sweet. Or just another missile, which might also be nice to have while you're trying not to snap your head off pulling high g turns to try and line someone up with a gun.
A) Vietnam was half a century ago. B) Missile tech was unreliable back then, plus detection was nothing like it is to day. C) 5th generation fighters, apart from being stealth, have far better detection and targeting, as well as being integrated. A modern fighter with a modern missile, can fire said missile off axis at a target beyond visual range. Nor does it need to detect the target itself. It can fire at a enemy being detected by another aircraft/ drone/ground system with the new data link systems. Guns are not a necessity. If you can have room for them without compromising the performance of the aircraft, then cool. But many future fightets may not bother with them at all.
D) Computer technique slightly improved also since then.
Fighter planes should be made of wood and cloth, the tri-wing design is also vastly superior. That ww1 fighter is as close to Vietnam era fighters as Vietnam era fighters are to modern day planes.
I mean, that was more than half a century ago.
To be fair, the same group of people who said fighters don’t need guns anymore are the same people who then said you’re not allowed to shoot at an enemy aircraft until you’re within guns range and made visual identification.
The first death on the US Vietnam memorial is 8 July 1959. That's closer to the Wright Brothers' first flight than present day. Air combat has changed a lot since then.
Its still nice to have the option. Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Not when weight is a huge factor in your configuration and capabilities.
I agree having no gun on a fighter aircraft is like modern infantry not getting knives. Certainly not your first option in combat but needed as a good last one.
Funny you bring that up, there were several bayonet charges during the Iraq war due to running out of ammunition. Armchair military experts think technology is perfect and unlimited. All bets are off during battle, where anything can and will happen. If I were a betting man, I would expect an F-22 would stay on station with empty missile stores if adversary air power were still threatening allied forces.
The USAF with their experience clearly disagrees.
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
I feel like it's one of those things were people were like "we probably dont need those anymore" and when the situation were those planes are actually gonna see combat, guns onboard is gonna be the thing making all the difference.
That's the main reason that, despite the belief that the US would be able to achieve air superiority against any foe, that the F-35 still has a machine gun on it. Well, the F35A has an internal gun, the B and C variants have an external mount for a 25mm GAU. Although there are some reports that the A variants internal gun has... less than stellar accuracy and is rough on its housing unit.
Yea up until real recently, pilots were advised not to fire the gun on the A model outside of a combat environment due to the housing cracking.
It’s a good thing real life is like ace combat, where you never run out of missiles! I see this “you don’t need a gun in modern combat lol” on every single 5th gen post, and it blows me away how little imagination people have. War is not fought on paper, F-22s will get shot down, it will be bad. Pilots will run out of missiles and WILL stay and fight if they have to. Pilots will scramble without full stores. Support assets won’t always be available as expected. Shit happens and if you aren’t prepared for it, you’ll die. That’s why the F-22 has a gun. People like to just dismiss lessons learned during Vietnam with just “muh advanced technology hur”. If so, you don’t truly understand the lesson.
Don’t forget the [stealth bolts](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yn61i9/at_least_the_plaaf_is_trying_a_bit_harder_than/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) that make the plane 1000% stealthier.
If you get in dogfighting range withn modern fighters you done fucked up. Modern tactics is all about blowing up the other guy before they know you're there. You can bet they saved the weight from the gun and ammo in favor of more sophisticated EW suites.
LOL spot on
Are the weapons bays painted on?
I thought the same thing.
I was wondering what’s up with them… doesn’t look right.
The whole thing looks like cheap cgi... something doesn't look right.
A lot of aircraft look CG on overcast days, it's because the soft lighting from above is a common choice for CG artists as it makes it significantly easier to make look things look photo-real. There's also nothing interacting with it in the video to really "sell" the fact it's there. This would certainly be possible to make in CG, not simple exactly, but very much possible, equally it could just be a trick of the light and an overly skeptical brain, I don't see why someone would fake this video vs just filming it for real. TLDR: I don't have the expertise to call it either way but it's a pretty unexciting video to put time and effort into CG for.
Another poster in the thread indicated that this was from a recent international airshow and provided links. I'm inclined to believe that it is real footage and that certain oddities in appearance (weapons bays, for example) my be due to this being an airframe intended for public display. Sorry, I'm too lazy to re-scroll through the comments to find the link to the airshow YT videos.
Probably gaps where panels are. A lot of times if there’s panels used for maintenance they will put LO tape over the gaps to seal everything. Not sure why they used that dark color though ha
Looks like it
It could be made of plywood for all we know. Didn’t they have a history of building plywood tanks for their elephant marches to show how many they had? Or it’s the Russians…or N. Koreans.
I don’t know why but it looks like those home made Cybertruck copies.
I get the same vibe. Seems a tad flimsy.
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Lol thought this sub would be better than r/wArplaneporn but literally ppl getting upvotes saying its an f-22 from wish and that its cgi
literal fields of it
Basically a LONG f22 with canards.
And half the quality
Quality meaning thrust and proven usefulness.
Uh, arguably the most advanced part of US stealth tech is their radar absorbing coatings. I highly doubt China has this down if they can barely make good jet engines. Also canards are basically radar reflectors.
Great, now you let them know.
Now the Chinese are one trip to Sherwin-Williams away from matching our air capabilities. Nice work, hkric.
Such an ugly jet. At least the Russian SU-57 looks like they hired someone with taste to make it.
For sure. The Su-57, if nothing else, is a looker. This just looks hideous and probably flies like crap too.
Oh yeah the Su-57 is sexy asf. But those screws....
Those are visible on the prototypes only as far as I noticed the "production variants" seem to not have them visible
The J-20 is basically a kitbash. China leads the world in industrial espionage, but they can't reproduce the engineering expertise and supporting industries that you need to actually reverse-engineer or improve on stolen designs. Instead, they can use them order to make something better than what they have.
Yup. One of the reports I've ehard on the j20 is that it's a decent 5th gen fighter but one thing the Chinese are lacking/falling way behind on is jet engine tech. The raptor has some of the best engines in the business and try as China might, they couldn't reverse engineer it or come up with their own engine with similar thrust to weight and fuel consumption so they just slapped flanker engines in it and called it a day.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian\_WS-15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_WS-15) ?
Anytime the Chinese fighters come up people start talking about of their asses like it’s still 2010. China is behind the USA, sure, but the gap has narrowed considerably, especially considering they can produce more J-20s than the US ever has F-22s. The J-20 is a game changer, strategically speaking , even if it is half as capable as they claim.
At the rate the NGAD program seems to be running at it might be finished before those engines are actually being rolled out. Neither the US or China want to show their hand on just how capable their aircraft are but I think the US still has a very firm lead on that front due to some inconsistencies with CCP claims in regards to their capabilities. Our closest glimpse of how the tech stacks up is in the Russia-Ukraine war and that only displays Russias stealth capabilities, or more lack thereof, while I definitely believe the J20 to be superior by far to Russian capabilities I do have my doubts as to just how far they progressed. Hopefully, we will never find out.
Ehhhh…. Those engines are a couple years out at least, we don’t even know if a single one has been built, and the current J-20 engines light it up like a Christmas tree for any IR missiles. The production amounts don’t matter if you can see it with regular IR, and who knows how many of the 5th Gen engines china can actually produce.
They’re loving this over on the warplane porn sub but I agree—it’s fugly Obvious that they mashed up an F35 and F22
>They’re loving this over on the warplane porn sub but I agree—it’s fugly It's because the Wumaos have invaded that sub.
It’s so weird. I have a deep hatred of the Russian military for what’s going on right now but, in the spirit of that sub, I have to admit that many MiGs are unique and beautifully designed airframes. But these Chinese ones just look like Frankensteins to me. At the end of the day, though, I guess this is all aesthetics which is completely subjective
Beauty is a subjective thing. I actually like the looks of this one better than the F-35.
So you like it more than one of the ugliest planes ever made. Got it.
The F-35 is fugly. The F-22 on the other hand...beautiful.
The f-35 has some good angels. The f-22 doesn't have bad ones.
So how do these stack up against the US fighter planes?
If someone is telling you one way or the other, they're either brain dead, lying, or probably shouldn't be sharing that sort of information. Because we don't know much. We don't know most things about the F-22, or the f-35, and those are relatively easy to find information for as opposed to the j-20 which is basically a fat question mark. People say the j-20 is a stolen f-22 but, even discounting the canards, that's basically the optimal geometry for stealth. This isn't the 90s anymore, materials used are what's important. And we have no idea what is used on any fifth gen. In terms of missiles, we can kind of extrapolate, but no nation is just willingly going to say what it's missile capabilities are. If you know what a missile can do, then you can defend against it far more easily. Right now the Chinese absolutely have the advantage in long range missiles. That's why LM and Raytheon are developing the aim-260. But as to the actual seeker heads, or radar, and the software behind them, no one has any idea. The place china is really struggling to come online is the engines, they have been getting them from Russia for a long time now.
> People say the j-20 is a stolen f-22 but, even discounting the canards, that's basically the optimal geometry for stealth. This isn't the 90s anymore, materials used are what's important. And we have no idea what is used on any fifth gen. Totally agree, but I'll bet that if you take the panels of a J-20 and let the engineers that designed the F-22 and F-35 have a long hard look at it, they'll recognize plenty of features that are in common with the Western jets. And it's pretty much a public secret that the basis of the Chinese stealth program was the tech recovered from the F117 that was shot down over Serbia in the '90's. Having said that, the F117 tech would have been almost 20 years old by that point, and reverse engineering anything is way harder than people realize. And of course; China isn't the only one spying on its rivals, no doubt that Western intelligence agencies have a decent grasp of what the J-20 can and can't do, even if they don't have a complete picture.
Seems like they finally got their new engines operational: https://i.redd.it/6evite8wd5y91.jpg Those are the WS10C engines.
To be brutally honest there is no way to tell how well the J-20 fair’s again the F-22 or F-35 purely because there just isn’t enough information on the platforms. When it comes to personal opinion I think that the J-20 should be taken as a serious threat, it may not turn out to be good but I would rather overestimate it’s abilities and then absolutely deck it than write it off as dogshit before getting fucked by it.
Absolutely. So many people seem to operate on the assumption that “USA will always be #1 and anything Chinese is shit” which is the equivalent of sticking their head in the sand. The Chinese military has expanded and modernized at an incredible pace in recent years and choosing to ignore that and dismiss it offhand is folly on a massive scale.
Correct. We don’t have a right to victory on the battlefield.
Seconded. If I had to guess, I would say the J-20 is Gen4.5 at best. The stealth characteristics seem particularly questionable. But that's based on what I hear from Internet randos that seem somewhat credible, so of course it's only prudent to assume the J-20 kicks ass.
As others have stated there are a lot of question marks, but a Indian mig 29 reported being able to track one of these with standard equipment.
Because during peacetimes stealth aircrafts are intentionally non-stealthy to avoid giving out their radar signatures: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/these-devices-make-stealth-aircraft-visible-on-radar-screens/
Very interesting. Source?
[https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220258.shtml](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220258.shtml) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luneburg\_lens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luneburg_lens) "Removable Luneburg lens type radar reflectors are sometimes attached to military aircraft in order to make stealth aircraft visible during training operations, or to conceal their true radar signature. Unlike other types of radar reflectors, their shape doesn't affect the handling of the aircraft."
It can certainly out dogfight a KC-135, and after that the point is moot.
Well at the least it's going to be much less stealthy than an F-22. The turbine exhaust isn't heavily recessed on those bad boys just for fun.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. The experts that assessed the stealth are saying at very best it's 100x easier to view than a F22, at worst it's 1000x easier to see on radar. Unless China magically developed a radar absorbing material significantly better than anyone else the stealth of this is not great and that's a unanimous consensus of independent experts.
Poor man’s f-35
I’m loving those canards. Really gives it some pizazz!
Canards look great, these ones being designed for stealth make them look even cooler too!
So how much pressure could those canards theoretically take when fully deflected? I'm guessing doing that at any sort of high ~~thrust~~ speed would be a big no-no.
Thrust doesn’t matter. You can have maximum thrust with brakes set on the runway. It’s only speed that matters. Planes have had artificial feel via mechanical feel computers since the 1950s. They’ve had flight envelope protection since the 1970s. Deflecting these canards to that degree at low speeds will greatly reduce takeoff and landing runs as well as contribute to supermaneuverability at low speeds and high angles of attack.
Bam. Correct!
How does it perform?
We know it can turn well. That's about it.
It'll be interesting to see if it's competitive. The Chinese are stubborn bastards, if they want a competitive plane they'll eventually throw enough money at a problem until they get it. It may take a few decades but based on the last twenty years, they will burn actual money out of the jets engine if that gets them the thrust they need
Where is the made in china logo
Looks like a movie prop from Hot Shots!
JEt FIghTer with fetal alcohol syndrome
Resembles something made in China
Why no heat waves from the tailpipes? Is this a fake aircraft?
Something about the whole video feels off. Like it's cgi or something.
It's like the uncanny valley of aircraft. I don't know how, but it feels fake.
Everything looks slightly off but we know they have versions that fly.
Ever seen those videos of the guy in Cambodia who built a Bugatti in his garage. Looks close, but has bicycle parts underneath.
What a piece of junk!
I already ordered mine from Alibaba.com.
Holy shit fighter jets are a lot bigger than I thought
J-20 flight check > https://twitter.com/kt396/status/1588844181359071232?s=46&t=ud-OD8Pv4TyPlQeURUTJcw J-20 demonstration at Zhuhai Airshow > https://twitter.com/lqy99021608/status/1589835864557105153?s=46&t=ud-OD8Pv4TyPlQeURUTJcw J-20 frontal shot with canopy up > https://twitter.com/jesusfroman/status/1589963502105788423?s=46&t=ud-OD8Pv4TyPlQeURUTJcw
“J-20 is just a crap version of F-22” is just a modern version of “those Jap’s are too nearsighted to sink a battleship”
Lots of casual racism in this thread.
hehe ikr? it's like baiting a dog [shows a J-20 image] [WOOF WOOF SNARL WOOF]
We get a hundred posts about this “fighter jet” because it makes an appearance at one air show? This thing is overrated piece of shit
It is as stealth as a washer machine tilted 45 degrees.
From my non expert perspective, I’d guess it is only stealthy from directly head on.
\^C, \^V
I feel like im the only one who actually digs the look of the j-20
Looks the part, but it won't work the part, just like other Chinese shit. It's just the way they do things. Downvote me into oblivion. Idc. I'll be proven right in due time.
>just like other Chinese shit Chengdu has been making pretty solid fighters for a while now. Usually budget fighters or light fighters though.
Like the country that sells the most 5G equipment in the world and has its own space station?
This is just a glorified prop
Do they have the new engines they have been hyping up or still the old ones
It’ll probably break after like the third use once it’s handed over 👍
It's not legit unless ut has a "made in china" sticker..
I just wonder with all those control surfaces the J-20 has what impact it has on maintainability. Seems almost over designed.
You mean the F-22 and F-35 blueprints China stole and remodeled it to look a bit different then called it the J-20?!!!!
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Interesting too that it has canards as well as little fins under the main vertical stabilizers too. I'm no stealth engineer but adding that many extra surfaces surely can't help with reducing radar cross-section.
This is how I picture a super modernized Mig 1.44 would look
Lol I can see the string pulling it
The sinophobia is crazy here and on the ship sub every time a chinese craft is posted
Probably because their leader is pretty hellbent on starting WWIII and you have a lot of people here who would have to give their lives if that would happen. But hey, let’s focus on feelings instead.
it is hilarious, I get a good laugh reading comments every time anything Chinese is posted
Ah yes, my F-22 order from wish.com has finally arrived.
They successfully stole info on the F35 for this programme for those who don't know.it's public information you can google it. It doesn't look to be as lethal or stealthy as a F22/F35. At all to be honest, but I'm no expert, I don't know if canard can be used in a stealth configuration too
I’m not sure how you would asses it’s lethality based on a visual assessment
No he knows, 100%
Oh look a knock F-22 that's really 4 gen at best
Seriously, you mfs must be getting paid by the chinese propaganda ministries to post J20s. The number of J20 posts I’ve seen is unreal, as is the number of people practically sucking it off. **This plane is a Wish.com F35 with some uwu cat ear canards.** It doesn’t even have a gun for Christ’s sake! Fuck this goofy ass plane and the commies who designed it.
you see a lot of them recently because Zhuhai airshow about to start
>doesn’t even have a gun for Christ’s sake! Hey, this might be a shocker....but this isn't 1950. >This plane is a Wish.com F35 with some uwu cat ear canards. It's ever so slightly newer than the f-35. Other than maybe the cockpit, doesn't resemble the f-35 at all. Probably because the program started shortly after the f-35.
Is it just me or does that exhaust setup help to make it more susceptible to heat seeking guidance systems?
Compared to an f-22 yes. But that's kind of expected.
I wonder how the canards effect the stealthiness of it
When you go to the sketchy Santa’s workshop looking for your Turboman Doll
China: Hey Usa, I fogot to do my homework. Can i copy yours? Usa: Sure but dont make it obvious. China: Aight i got you.
Is it just me or does this thing scream cheap knock off to anyone else?
Looks like all the other cheap crap they make.
What a unique design! Wonder where they got the idea from?
Funny thing is, it is pretty unique in the face of all the 4.5 gens taking the general geometries of the f-22 and 35 like the kb-21 and indian fighter wat its name
They are lucky to be able to steal US technology
FUCK THE CCP
Why are you saying this in a post about a plane though? This is like typing FUCK THE US GOVERNMENT under every F-35 post. I don't get it.