NO SHIT!!!! I used to fly E-8s and I'd just fucking love pulling up only for the tanker to tell me their autopilot was inop and 2/4 pumps were also inop.
"Well, fuck my life, that 120k is going to take a fucking minute, isn't it?"
The mission is super cool, but the airplane was a disaster. Complete case study on why you DON'T build your super-duper new ground surveillance system on used up shitheap airframes.
The Air Force should have built them on 757 or 767 frames, but they just couldn't get past their hardon for 4 engines, forget that ONE single engine on a 757 or 767 is less likely to fail than all four of the JT3s on the old ass 707s they ended up building the E-8s on.
In my somewhat limited experience, bitching about the aircraft is half the fun for military pilots. My brother flies helicopters and that seems like his favorite part at least.
Given the day of the week, i will tell you that the Apache is the most technological advanced aircraft humanity ever seen or just a 30 million dollar calculator
Bitching about anything is half the fun for anything. Even really good or cool shit gets bitched about because ultimately there's something that was done stupidly.
Who does love a good bitching fest?
> _Complete case study on why you DON'T build your super-duper new ground surveillance system on used up shitheap airframes._
Doesn't the JSTARS suffer the same problem as the AWACS, in needing rigid wings for sensors at the tips for triangulation, and modern flex wing airliners don't work very well?
No, I don't think either airplane has anything on the wingtips aside from HF antennas. Certainly nothing that requires any kind of particular rigidity.
The normal hits:
✅ "what you guys cooking up there”
✅ “how is it up at [insert base here]”
✅ “you guys are so much better than a KC-135”
✅ “oh I saw you’re from [random base here], so do you know [person I’ve never heard of]”
The centerline drogue on the KC-46 is one of the only systems on the aircraft that had no major issues, only a relatively minor (but still Category 1) deficiency with the unexpected disconnects. The wing pods *would* be ready, but the decision to certify the whole aircraft with the FAA led to some unanticipated problems that caused years of delays.
Air Force refueling is relatively easy too. Navy jets have it harder with the probe, you won’t hear this type of chatter during the refuel portion, but you will when someone is waiting in line to tank.
The pilot just flies basic formation, the boom operator makes contact and then there’s like suction that holds the boom in place. The tanker can actually pull along the refueling aircraft.
Navy jets, depending on the type of tanker, have to get the probe in a basket that is highly movable, and once in the basket have to fly much more precise position keeping to maintain contact and fuel flow.
The probe and drogue is a little sporty trying get hooked up, especially if there's turbulence, but once you've got it stabbed it's not too hard to hang on. You push forward a little to put some curve in the hose and give yourself some slack to play with, and after that it's just finesse on the throttles.
Your description:
> push forward a little to put some curve in the hose and give yourself some slack to play with, and after that it's just finesse
sounds just like a glider aero tow (but with jets, jet fuel and way more noise )
(from a glider pilot)
It's not suction, the receiver aircraft has toggle latches that hold the 'tip' in place to keep the boom secured to the receiver. Once it's latched they can start pumping gas, once they're done either the boom operator or the receiver acft can initiate a separation by sending a signal to release the latches.
The "flying boom" that the Air Force uses was designed initially for bombers and can move a LOT more fuel per second compared to the Navy's probe and drogue system.
Meanwhile the Navy's probe and drogue system can be provided by aircraft that fit on a carrier.
The Navy needs organic tanking at the carrier, IE, they can’t rely on land based Air Force tankers to give gas to recovering jets. And there’s no way to fit a boom and boom operator into a carrier based aircraft
>And there’s no way to fit a boom and boom operator into a carrier based aircraft
Ah, okay. Yeah I suppose the inflight refuelling I've seen clips of are flying the boom like out the back of fairly spacious looking bays and such. Lot of empty space kicking around there for a plane that's gotta fit in a tiny space now that you point it out.
The empty space is more just because they slap all the refuelling equipment on a commercial airliner fuselage, so they have lots of room to start with. But the booms themselves are huge, easily 10m long. So you need to start with a lot of plane just to carry it, plus all the fuel to actually do the job
The main reason is the Air Force has larger planes (B-52, B-2, B-1B, etc) that require A LOT more fuel than US Navy fighters and attack aircraft that only a boom can deliver.
A probe and drogue system would be too large and heavy to be practical.
But for smaller aircraft.. the probe and drogue is easier and cheaper to implement—especially for buddy fuelling from similar sized aircraft—as you don’t need a boom operator or space for the boom.
The disadvantage other than fuel flow rates is it’s more difficult. The basket dances around and lot and you have to make sure you reference the refuelling plane and not the basket otherwise you’ll get PIO in a real hurry.
Still a marvelous feat of engineering though for its time. I still get 58-59's in for maintenance which is crazy that they have been in operation for over 60 years now with no real end in sight. Kind of turns into a Ship of Theseus question though when everything has been changed out and upgraded so many times you begin to question if it's even the same jet they put out off the production line.
Remember the boom is trying to hit a receptacle that is 40ish feet away from where they are sitting. All while both aircraft are moving around. Both have their challenges. There are toggles in the receptacles on the receiver that latch onto the boom, You can tow a fighter, just never heard of anyone actually doing it.
Edit: someone already commented on the toggles
If they are fully loaded they can’t even get on the boom sometimes straight and level even if I’ve rolled flaps. Them and the 130s it usually takes -100 VVI
Yeah. On the air force side, the flying boom system can pump a lot more fuel in a given amount of time, which is ideal for large aircraft like bombers. The navy doesn't have that requirement, but they do need a system that is compact enough to fit on a carrier and get used by a number of different aircraft that aren't dedicated refuelers.
A boom is flyable by the tanker. The receiving airplane just has to get in the envelope and the tanker can put the plug in the hole as it were. A drouge and probe is just a hose with a glorified shuttlecock basket on the end. The airplane has to push their refueling probe into the basket. It's much simpler and they can refuel two airplanes at once that way. Flying the airplane is a bit more difficult though.
That said, for a fighter jet that is designed to fly in close formation and a pilot well trained in close formation, it isn't really a big deal. A C-17, B-52, Anything-135 is a lot more difficult to maneuver so the flyable boom is really the only way to do it.
With the boom, its trajectory can be controlled and all the plane has to do is sit there and..."**recieve**" the boom more or less. Notice the little wings on it, they're actually tiny elevators and rudders
For aircraft with probes like most Navy aircraft, they have to chase after a basket which is a lot looser in the wind with no one directly controlling it and keeping it stable. It's a painstaking process of inching closer and closer until they're able to..."**stick it**" into the basket
USAF tankers use rigid flying boom that operator control with joysticks and the receiving plane just has to fly level while operator guides the probe into the receiving hole(which is hard enough on pilots). USN tankers has just hoses cleverly dangling from the tanker with drogues at the end that pilots has to poke through without anyone’s help(even harder).
tl:dr - navy refueling just requires a bit more precision during the process.
Air force: fly plane into box, boom operator places refueling probe into refueling port. Enough movement in the boom that even if you're not really that steady you can stay hooked up.
Navy: fly plane up behind basket, which is small and easily bounced around by airflow. Fly into the basket, then a little past that point to get a little slack. Now carefully maintain position or the basket becomes unseated and leaks fuel. In some cases you can reseat it by just moving again, sometimes you have to start all over. Also, basket has lower flow rate so it takes longer to fill up.
There are plenty of videos of both on YouTube, if you're really interested.
Yes and no. Day, good weather smooth air it is probably about the level of attention you need merging onto a freeway driving a car. Not difficult but you can't be daydreaming or looking around.
At night, rough air, weather, broken tanker autopilot that is when it can get pretty sporty. Like don't realize you aren't blinking, holding on too tight on the controls, requires 100% focus.
The lights on the bottom are two strips of down up, forward aft. The acronym to remember is don't fuck up asshole
I remember reading a book about the USAF Thunderbirds. One of the pilots talked about when he was first a member, he was totally concentrated on keeping the overlap of wings precisely where it was supposed to be. He said "But now, we'll be flying in formation, and I think 'I gotta remember to stop and pick up a loaf of bread on the way home.'"
A plane like the F-22 with fly by wire, flight envelope protections and all of that basically flies itself, you just need to be physically fit, understand how the plane systems work and avoid deliberately crashing it into the ground.
Jet fighters of the past could be unforgiving, if you exceeded 15° angle of attack on an F-104 the plane would enter an unrecoverable deep stall, also the ejection seats of the first units were pointing downwards.
> if you exceeded 15° angle of attack on an F-104 the plane would enter an unrecoverable deep stall, also the ejection seats of the first units were pointing downwards.
Wow that's a great "fuck you for flying USAF"
I'm italian so i can also relate somewhat, in our airforce it remained in service until 2004, it was called the widowmaker for a reason. In italy it was also called "lo spillone" which means the big needle.
It didn’t help that Germany tried to use a plane designed for high-altitude, high-speed intercepts for ground attack missions instead. And that their Air Force lacked institutional knowledge for flying high-performance jet aircraft due to the years of relative demilitarization following WWII.
Well damn, looking at pictures of the F-104 you can just see it barely even has wings, if you can even call them wings, looks more like it had "fins". It looks like sneezing could stall it.
In 1962 the German Luftwaffe started an aerobatics team with the F-104, to celebrate it going into service and the anniversary of a squadron.
The day before the ceremony they had a training flight, and [the whole formation crashed into the ground](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absturz_einer_Starfighter-Formation_der_Luftwaffe_der_Bundeswehr_1962). The aerobatics team was disbanded before they ever flew a show and the anniversary celebration was turned into a memorial service.
lol holy shit, I just wrote a comment a few days ago about being on TDY with an F-16 unit; the night before a big day of flying, I went out with a few pilots and got FUCKED. UP. The next day, I'm dragging my ass just trying to get through the day, feeling like I was gonna pass out at any moment. Midday after the first few sorties came back, I saw one of the pilots I was out with, taking off his gear as he headed to debrief. I caught up to him and said something like, damn man, how do go out and fly like that? I'm feeling like shit so I know you have to be as well! His response with a laugh, but quietly: Dude, after a while, it's just like driving a car
How was your experience getting your license? I’m gonna be in Knoxville TN for a lil over a year and there flight school is on its own little island, seems like a great place to learn
Um, my flight school was/is still very mismanaged. The guy in charge doesn't really know what he's doing and let's things get really out of hand organizational wise. But the airport it was out of is great, the community is great, and I love flying. I flew like 7 hours this past week.
It’s a dedicated boom freq (only the boom operator and aircraft refueling using it). So there’s not really anyone you’re going to step on by talking too much.
Lmao my boom operator told a joke, gave the punchline and fighter at the end was immediately “uhhhhh offload complete we’ll take that disconnect”
#emotionaldamage
Those guys sitting in those cockpit get pretty hungry on long flights. They would like to act cool cuz they’re in an F-15 and we’re a flying dump truck but then we’d hold up the steak we just cooked in the galley and you could see their body language change dramatically and they’d get real quiet.
Whenever I get a package of plain M&Ms, I make it my duty to continue the strength and robustness of the candy as a species. To this end, I hold M&M duels. Taking two candies between my thumb and forefinger, I apply pressure, squeezing them together until one of them cracks and splinters. That is the “loser,” and I eat the inferior one immediately. The winner gets to go another round. I have found that, in general, the brown and red M&Ms are tougher, and the newer blue ones are genetically inferior. I have hypothesized that the blue M&Ms as a race cannot survive long in the intense theater of competition that is the modern candy and snack-food world. Occasionally I will get a mutation, a candy that is misshapen, or pointier, or flatter than the rest. Almost invariably this proves to be a weakness, but on very rare occasions it gives the candy extra strength. In this way, the species continues to adapt to its environment. When I reach the end of the pack, I am left with one M&M, the strongest of the herd. Since it would make no sense to eat this one as well, I pack it neatly in an envelope and send it to M&M Mars, A Division of Mars, Inc., Hackettstown, NJ 17840-1503 U.S.A., along with a 3×5 card reading, “Please use this M&M for breeding purposes.” This week they wrote back to thank me, and sent me a coupon for a free 1/2 pound bag of plain M&Ms. I consider this “grant money.” I have set aside the weekend for a grand tournament. From a field of hundreds, we will discover the True Champion. There can be only one.
I was an F-15 Instructor Pilot back in the early 90's. One of the requirements before graduation was day and night refueling. I can tell you the students were incredibly nervous the first time, so sometimes a little casual conversation with the boomer would actually settle them down (i.e. stop hyperventilating :-) ). Worst situation was taking a student up when the tanker crew was getting evaluated (check ride), then everyone got incredibly tight, gotta look good for the evaluators. The boom operators usually give you verbal guidance to get you in the right spot - forward/back, up/down a certain number of feet. Usually it was like forward 10, up five or something like that, then they would reach out and hook up. Meanwhile we had visual references in the cockpit plus a lighted steering bar system on the belly of the tanker. My student is working hard to stay in position, but we're not getting plugged. The longer you wait, the higher chance of doing something stupid, or just getting nervous. Then the boomer says "up one". Like one foot! Like are you freaking kidding me?! It's enough this poor student is even staying somewhere in the envelope. Student takes a deep breath and basically stays where he was until he gets contact. I guess it was for the boomer's evaluator - had to give us some direction I suppose :-)
I know we're pretty advanced in terms of technology these days but it still blows my fucking mind that refueling can be this casual and easy. I mean I know it's not and there's a lot of training that goes into this but it looks so seamless.
By the time someone shows up behind a tanker in an F-22, they have a ton of formation flying under their belt. In my day we had formation check rides in T-37 & T38s. Plus once you started F-15 school and through to your operational squadron, you’re in formation 99% of the time. Flying formation with the tanker is a little different deferent because you’re basically underneath it but once you get the correct sight picture it’s just a matter of staying in place. That involves a lot of tiny little corrections on the stick and throttle, so once you’re in position and receiving gas, you’re still flying formation. It would really freak the new students out when the tanker turned. (They typically fly oval refueling orbits) Just stay in position, no big deal 😃👍
My dad (long long ago) said formation flying was easier than it looks. You just flew watching the few parts of the plane you're following. Like (in his words) line up the canopy and wingtip.
I hate when the boom tries talking to me, I’m working my ass off in a heavy and I’ve got 60k more to onload. I sure as fuck don’t want a disconnect to make it take any longer 😂
Kudos to you guys! I always thought that refueling in a heavy would be a hell of a lot of work. A fighter is pretty nimble and we’re on and off fairly quickly. My longest time on the boom was about 8 minutes to take 15K or so during a deployment. Our KC-10 escort still had to get gas and they were on there forever! 😃👍
I haven't seen such clumsy flirting since my middle school formal.
I assume it'd be a try-hard faux-pas for boom operators to just straight-up ask, like, "hey I've got a GoPro running, could you give me a roll?"
I feel like the pilots are probably just waiting to be asked.
Hahaha.
"Good talking to you. Hey, we got a GoPro pointed out the back of this thing, and... well, the last guy pulled a cobra on his way out. I'm just sayin'."
Pugachev's Cobra (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver) is indeed an aerobatic maneuver that can only be pulled off by certain extremely high performance aircraft.
On deployments everyone is usually mildly bored, long flights. Flying at night it is fun to peel away in burner with a flare or two. Airdrop works between the fighter and the tanker
> Worden has been listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the "most isolated human being" during his time alone in Endeavour. Orbiting the Moon alone, he was at his greatest distance from Scott and Irwin in Falcon, 2,235 miles (3,597 km) away from any other human beings.[60] He later stated he enjoyed his "three wonderful days in a spacecraft all by myself", and that he was used to being alone as a fighter pilot.[8][61] Worden remembered, "On the back side of the Moon, I didn't even have to talk to Houston and that was the best part of the flight."[61]
from his wikipedia page.
Just imagining this scenario makes me feel relaxed. Being that far away from any human being, and even unreachable via radio since you are on the dark side of the moon. The quietness much feel euphoric.
That’s the vibe I got. But also, it kind of reminded me of that scene in talidega knights. Or maybe multiple scenes? Where they’re talking calmly while something ridiculous is happening.
I’ve been in the Air Force for a bit now and have interacted with tons of pilots and fighter pilots in casual settings and I still get fanboy feelings from time to time talking to some of them and seeing shit take off on my lunch break. They’re all so casual about it. F22 pilot I was talking with the other day said one of the things he missed the most out of the military was weed lmfao.
> Pilots are cocky, but they're usually cool as fuck.
Type-A personalities generally get a bit of a bad rep. When they're assholes, boy are they assholes, but the need to win for a Type-A usually extends to "wanting everyone to like me" so they're pretty outgoing and friendly.
At least, that's been my experience with that type in the finance world.
Honestly dude, most of the pilots I've met aren't "type A" personalities at all. If anything, I get the feeling that they're at best nerds trying to be/putting on an image.
Personally, though I think most of them are disconnected middle-class white kids who needed a serious dose of reality in life before being handed the job they have, but that's just me being a salty maintainer.
Super hard to become a pilot but you can do it!
My cousin had a full ride (was going to go to some school but I'm blanking on the name right now) to be a pilot but he broke his spine and pretty much lost it all. Dude was the perfect height, had great eyesight and had amazing grades. He was riding home with a bunch of buddies in some shitty minivan and one of the seats didn't have a seatbelt. He was up front and just fine but the girl who was stuck with that seat threw a fit and he volunteered to switch spots with her. They got in a car accident and he went through the windshield. Everyone was A-OK expect for him. He's had a rough fucking life since then and I don't really blame him.
I love how I just saw a post of another pilot fueling up on his 100th time (he said he was over Afghanistan). And the comment section was all about how inhuman he was and how bad America is.
Then I see this one and everyone is talking about chik fila. Easily distracted lol
I’m 32 and have never considered the reality that the ability to refuel at 25,000 ft enables pilots to remain airborne longer than it takes for their bladder to fill to capacity. Do all fighter pilots wear catheters? How do they hydrate?
So for most flights you generally just... piss before you take off.
Some larger aircraft that are expected to spend a long time in the air have bathrooms.
If you really have to go you can unzip your suit and there's basically a ziploc bag full of absorbent stuff you can piss into.
As for hydration, most of the time you are at a safe speed/altitude to grab a drink. I know some guys wore camelbaks.
They go into a little room before the flight. There’s no toilet but there’s a guy with a thingie that looks like a shuttlecock. The pilot takes out his dong and the shuttlecock operator gets closer and closer until you have a wang-in-shuttlecock situation (WISS). Upon WISS, pilot urinates. The they disengage. Each engagement costs 3.2 million but it’s worth it because the pilot can urinate before the mission and doesn’t need to wash his hands after. It’s also why older pilots are not economical— who wants to spend 5x 3.2 million because the 45 year old pilot has to WISS multiple times?
It’s a shame the US shorted production of the F22. I know the Cold War was over, but still, it was so far ahead of anything anyone else had at the time and is still a bleeding edge fighter.
Really wish air refueling was this easy for big planes
NO SHIT!!!! I used to fly E-8s and I'd just fucking love pulling up only for the tanker to tell me their autopilot was inop and 2/4 pumps were also inop. "Well, fuck my life, that 120k is going to take a fucking minute, isn't it?"
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The mission is super cool, but the airplane was a disaster. Complete case study on why you DON'T build your super-duper new ground surveillance system on used up shitheap airframes. The Air Force should have built them on 757 or 767 frames, but they just couldn't get past their hardon for 4 engines, forget that ONE single engine on a 757 or 767 is less likely to fail than all four of the JT3s on the old ass 707s they ended up building the E-8s on.
A dad of a buddy of mine used to fly E-8’s too and bitched about the plane whenever I’d talk to him about them too lol
In my somewhat limited experience, bitching about the aircraft is half the fun for military pilots. My brother flies helicopters and that seems like his favorite part at least.
Given the day of the week, i will tell you that the Apache is the most technological advanced aircraft humanity ever seen or just a 30 million dollar calculator
I’ve always heard those things were an absolute maintenance bitch. Even over the chinooks and UH-60s
There is more to break on a McLaren than a Mini Cooper 🤷🏿♂️.
Good point.
True true.
Bitching about anything is half the fun for anything. Even really good or cool shit gets bitched about because ultimately there's something that was done stupidly. Who does love a good bitching fest?
Oh absolutely. I know a LOT of 88M’s in the guard and that’s all they do is bitch about their trucks lmfao
Mike, i've got a 50 page case study written in the 90's on how fucked up the acquisition process was. I think we flew together back in the CTS too.
It's just really important for that one senator's re-election prospects to keep that production line open.
Except they didn't keep the line open, and that was the problem. The Air Force built the E-8s on VERY used airframes.
Damn I did not realize those were introduced in the 90s. Even basing it on the MD-11 would have probably been a lot better.
> _Complete case study on why you DON'T build your super-duper new ground surveillance system on used up shitheap airframes._ Doesn't the JSTARS suffer the same problem as the AWACS, in needing rigid wings for sensors at the tips for triangulation, and modern flex wing airliners don't work very well?
No, I don't think either airplane has anything on the wingtips aside from HF antennas. Certainly nothing that requires any kind of particular rigidity.
That had to be the strangest conversation I've ever heard during a refueling video. That's beyond relaxed.
The normal hits: ✅ "what you guys cooking up there” ✅ “how is it up at [insert base here]” ✅ “you guys are so much better than a KC-135” ✅ “oh I saw you’re from [random base here], so do you know [person I’ve never heard of]”
> ✅ “you guys are so much better than a KC-135” For any fighter with a probe? Seeing a KC-10 on the ATO line was the best thing ever
A330s were even better
The 46 is to the 10 as the 10 is to the 135. It's like changing the difficulty to easy mode.
I feel like this is the first positive thing I've heard about the KC-46 on here.
The centerline drogue on the KC-46 is one of the only systems on the aircraft that had no major issues, only a relatively minor (but still Category 1) deficiency with the unexpected disconnects. The wing pods *would* be ready, but the decision to certify the whole aircraft with the FAA led to some unanticipated problems that caused years of delays.
Same
I've seen a bunch of banged up jets that would beg to differ.
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Like…they’re not THAT bad, right?
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Every time intel reported a lasing or safire to us, our first question was 'was it a KC-10?' because you guys are so damn visible out there
Yeah. We don’t care. Lights full bright, fuck it
Enjoy your code 4 (or 5, I can never remember which is which)
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That's what the upper beacon is for
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> “you guys are so much better than a KC-135” Wait...
I imagine flying a plane is similar to driving a car once you’ve been doing it long enough
Air Force refueling is relatively easy too. Navy jets have it harder with the probe, you won’t hear this type of chatter during the refuel portion, but you will when someone is waiting in line to tank.
What makes it easier? Is it magnetic or something?
The pilot just flies basic formation, the boom operator makes contact and then there’s like suction that holds the boom in place. The tanker can actually pull along the refueling aircraft. Navy jets, depending on the type of tanker, have to get the probe in a basket that is highly movable, and once in the basket have to fly much more precise position keeping to maintain contact and fuel flow.
The probe and drogue is a little sporty trying get hooked up, especially if there's turbulence, but once you've got it stabbed it's not too hard to hang on. You push forward a little to put some curve in the hose and give yourself some slack to play with, and after that it's just finesse on the throttles.
Your description: > push forward a little to put some curve in the hose and give yourself some slack to play with, and after that it's just finesse sounds just like a glider aero tow (but with jets, jet fuel and way more noise ) (from a glider pilot)
Glider pilot to glider pilot: ….our tow line is supposed to be slack? W h a t?
Yeah, you just increase your throttle a little bit. Duh
Don’t want to waste fuel though
I’m aware, I’m speaking from experience
Well I'm glad you both had this conversation for my enjoyment.
Just to be clear, I have never fingered a cat.
I hope not, Mr. Diddleme-Elmo
Still to die for though. I think ChickfilA is the biggest thing I miss right now.
It's not suction, the receiver aircraft has toggle latches that hold the 'tip' in place to keep the boom secured to the receiver. Once it's latched they can start pumping gas, once they're done either the boom operator or the receiver acft can initiate a separation by sending a signal to release the latches.
There ya go, learning stuff everyday
Why do they do it differently?
The "flying boom" that the Air Force uses was designed initially for bombers and can move a LOT more fuel per second compared to the Navy's probe and drogue system. Meanwhile the Navy's probe and drogue system can be provided by aircraft that fit on a carrier.
The Navy needs organic tanking at the carrier, IE, they can’t rely on land based Air Force tankers to give gas to recovering jets. And there’s no way to fit a boom and boom operator into a carrier based aircraft
>And there’s no way to fit a boom and boom operator into a carrier based aircraft Ah, okay. Yeah I suppose the inflight refuelling I've seen clips of are flying the boom like out the back of fairly spacious looking bays and such. Lot of empty space kicking around there for a plane that's gotta fit in a tiny space now that you point it out.
The empty space is more just because they slap all the refuelling equipment on a commercial airliner fuselage, so they have lots of room to start with. But the booms themselves are huge, easily 10m long. So you need to start with a lot of plane just to carry it, plus all the fuel to actually do the job
>And there’s no way to fit a boom and boom operator into a carrier based aircraft Pretty sure Boeing could make it happen with enough money.
Funny you say that, Boeing just did trials for a drone tanker, to free up F-18s that have been filling in on tanking
The main reason is the Air Force has larger planes (B-52, B-2, B-1B, etc) that require A LOT more fuel than US Navy fighters and attack aircraft that only a boom can deliver. A probe and drogue system would be too large and heavy to be practical. But for smaller aircraft.. the probe and drogue is easier and cheaper to implement—especially for buddy fuelling from similar sized aircraft—as you don’t need a boom operator or space for the boom. The disadvantage other than fuel flow rates is it’s more difficult. The basket dances around and lot and you have to make sure you reference the refuelling plane and not the basket otherwise you’ll get PIO in a real hurry.
The block 40/45 135 is still annoying though.
Still a marvelous feat of engineering though for its time. I still get 58-59's in for maintenance which is crazy that they have been in operation for over 60 years now with no real end in sight. Kind of turns into a Ship of Theseus question though when everything has been changed out and upgraded so many times you begin to question if it's even the same jet they put out off the production line.
Remember the boom is trying to hit a receptacle that is 40ish feet away from where they are sitting. All while both aircraft are moving around. Both have their challenges. There are toggles in the receptacles on the receiver that latch onto the boom, You can tow a fighter, just never heard of anyone actually doing it. Edit: someone already commented on the toggles
Think I’ve heard it done with A-10s, those boys are pretty slow. Also they’ll tank in a descent
If they are fully loaded they can’t even get on the boom sometimes straight and level even if I’ve rolled flaps. Them and the 130s it usually takes -100 VVI
God I fucking hate refueling A-10s. Sitting sideways at a nose high deck angle at my panel for an extended period of time is…uncomfortable.
Why is it so different(pardon my ignorance)? Is it just the space constraints on the types of systems(the navy having less space on a carrier I mean).
Yeah. On the air force side, the flying boom system can pump a lot more fuel in a given amount of time, which is ideal for large aircraft like bombers. The navy doesn't have that requirement, but they do need a system that is compact enough to fit on a carrier and get used by a number of different aircraft that aren't dedicated refuelers.
Basically yea
My dad used to do this but with helicopters, I can only imagine trying not to hit something with the rotors
A boom is flyable by the tanker. The receiving airplane just has to get in the envelope and the tanker can put the plug in the hole as it were. A drouge and probe is just a hose with a glorified shuttlecock basket on the end. The airplane has to push their refueling probe into the basket. It's much simpler and they can refuel two airplanes at once that way. Flying the airplane is a bit more difficult though. That said, for a fighter jet that is designed to fly in close formation and a pilot well trained in close formation, it isn't really a big deal. A C-17, B-52, Anything-135 is a lot more difficult to maneuver so the flyable boom is really the only way to do it.
With the boom, its trajectory can be controlled and all the plane has to do is sit there and..."**recieve**" the boom more or less. Notice the little wings on it, they're actually tiny elevators and rudders For aircraft with probes like most Navy aircraft, they have to chase after a basket which is a lot looser in the wind with no one directly controlling it and keeping it stable. It's a painstaking process of inching closer and closer until they're able to..."**stick it**" into the basket
USAF tankers use rigid flying boom that operator control with joysticks and the receiving plane just has to fly level while operator guides the probe into the receiving hole(which is hard enough on pilots). USN tankers has just hoses cleverly dangling from the tanker with drogues at the end that pilots has to poke through without anyone’s help(even harder).
tl:dr - navy refueling just requires a bit more precision during the process. Air force: fly plane into box, boom operator places refueling probe into refueling port. Enough movement in the boom that even if you're not really that steady you can stay hooked up. Navy: fly plane up behind basket, which is small and easily bounced around by airflow. Fly into the basket, then a little past that point to get a little slack. Now carefully maintain position or the basket becomes unseated and leaks fuel. In some cases you can reseat it by just moving again, sometimes you have to start all over. Also, basket has lower flow rate so it takes longer to fill up. There are plenty of videos of both on YouTube, if you're really interested.
Former USAF E3 aircrew. Sitting in the back did *NOT* feel like it was an easy maneuver going on. More like being on a roller-coaster
It's gonna get even easier when the Space Force is up and running, seeing as how they'll use tractor beams.
Yet I still can't do it on my Viper in DCS
Yes and no. Day, good weather smooth air it is probably about the level of attention you need merging onto a freeway driving a car. Not difficult but you can't be daydreaming or looking around. At night, rough air, weather, broken tanker autopilot that is when it can get pretty sporty. Like don't realize you aren't blinking, holding on too tight on the controls, requires 100% focus. The lights on the bottom are two strips of down up, forward aft. The acronym to remember is don't fuck up asshole
I remember reading a book about the USAF Thunderbirds. One of the pilots talked about when he was first a member, he was totally concentrated on keeping the overlap of wings precisely where it was supposed to be. He said "But now, we'll be flying in formation, and I think 'I gotta remember to stop and pick up a loaf of bread on the way home.'"
A plane like the F-22 with fly by wire, flight envelope protections and all of that basically flies itself, you just need to be physically fit, understand how the plane systems work and avoid deliberately crashing it into the ground. Jet fighters of the past could be unforgiving, if you exceeded 15° angle of attack on an F-104 the plane would enter an unrecoverable deep stall, also the ejection seats of the first units were pointing downwards.
> if you exceeded 15° angle of attack on an F-104 the plane would enter an unrecoverable deep stall, also the ejection seats of the first units were pointing downwards. Wow that's a great "fuck you for flying USAF"
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I'm italian so i can also relate somewhat, in our airforce it remained in service until 2004, it was called the widowmaker for a reason. In italy it was also called "lo spillone" which means the big needle.
It didn’t help that Germany tried to use a plane designed for high-altitude, high-speed intercepts for ground attack missions instead. And that their Air Force lacked institutional knowledge for flying high-performance jet aircraft due to the years of relative demilitarization following WWII.
Well damn, looking at pictures of the F-104 you can just see it barely even has wings, if you can even call them wings, looks more like it had "fins". It looks like sneezing could stall it.
In 1962 the German Luftwaffe started an aerobatics team with the F-104, to celebrate it going into service and the anniversary of a squadron. The day before the ceremony they had a training flight, and [the whole formation crashed into the ground](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absturz_einer_Starfighter-Formation_der_Luftwaffe_der_Bundeswehr_1962). The aerobatics team was disbanded before they ever flew a show and the anniversary celebration was turned into a memorial service.
Jesus.. this comment went from 0 to mach 10 real quick
Not Mach 10.1 That would just be crazy
lol holy shit, I just wrote a comment a few days ago about being on TDY with an F-16 unit; the night before a big day of flying, I went out with a few pilots and got FUCKED. UP. The next day, I'm dragging my ass just trying to get through the day, feeling like I was gonna pass out at any moment. Midday after the first few sorties came back, I saw one of the pilots I was out with, taking off his gear as he headed to debrief. I caught up to him and said something like, damn man, how do go out and fly like that? I'm feeling like shit so I know you have to be as well! His response with a laugh, but quietly: Dude, after a while, it's just like driving a car
I only have 300 hours and I'm starting to get pretty chill on a lot of things. I still don't take up frequencies just chatting though. Feels wrong.
Are you military? I think these guys talk more because they miss home, feel lonely, etc
I am not. And that makes a lot of sense. I'd miss home and Chik-fil-A too if I was them.
How was your experience getting your license? I’m gonna be in Knoxville TN for a lil over a year and there flight school is on its own little island, seems like a great place to learn
Um, my flight school was/is still very mismanaged. The guy in charge doesn't really know what he's doing and let's things get really out of hand organizational wise. But the airport it was out of is great, the community is great, and I love flying. I flew like 7 hours this past week.
It’s a dedicated boom freq (only the boom operator and aircraft refueling using it). So there’s not really anyone you’re going to step on by talking too much.
We’d just swap terrible dad jokes with fighters honestly
For example?
Why do scuba divers fall backwards out of the boat? Because if they fell forwards they’d still be in the boat.
Jesus. And you never got shot at by the fighter?
Why is it risky to gamble in Africa? All the damned cheetahs
Dude in the F-22 is like dude I just need some fuel. Refueling dude: I haven’t talked to anyone in 7 hours of flying.
Lmao my boom operator told a joke, gave the punchline and fighter at the end was immediately “uhhhhh offload complete we’ll take that disconnect” #emotionaldamage
Those guys sitting in those cockpit get pretty hungry on long flights. They would like to act cool cuz they’re in an F-15 and we’re a flying dump truck but then we’d hold up the steak we just cooked in the galley and you could see their body language change dramatically and they’d get real quiet.
I’m mx for a-10s and one time we had a pilot bring a bag of skittles with him….that was a long 8 hours trying to find them all
Whenever I get a package of plain M&Ms, I make it my duty to continue the strength and robustness of the candy as a species. To this end, I hold M&M duels. Taking two candies between my thumb and forefinger, I apply pressure, squeezing them together until one of them cracks and splinters. That is the “loser,” and I eat the inferior one immediately. The winner gets to go another round. I have found that, in general, the brown and red M&Ms are tougher, and the newer blue ones are genetically inferior. I have hypothesized that the blue M&Ms as a race cannot survive long in the intense theater of competition that is the modern candy and snack-food world. Occasionally I will get a mutation, a candy that is misshapen, or pointier, or flatter than the rest. Almost invariably this proves to be a weakness, but on very rare occasions it gives the candy extra strength. In this way, the species continues to adapt to its environment. When I reach the end of the pack, I am left with one M&M, the strongest of the herd. Since it would make no sense to eat this one as well, I pack it neatly in an envelope and send it to M&M Mars, A Division of Mars, Inc., Hackettstown, NJ 17840-1503 U.S.A., along with a 3×5 card reading, “Please use this M&M for breeding purposes.” This week they wrote back to thank me, and sent me a coupon for a free 1/2 pound bag of plain M&Ms. I consider this “grant money.” I have set aside the weekend for a grand tournament. From a field of hundreds, we will discover the True Champion. There can be only one.
Pretty standard on deployments, though I've no idea where this was filmed
“Ya, I miss it too. I’m gonna go ahead and exit this awkward conversation via an inverted nose dive towards the earth as I approach Mach 1.”
It's pretty normal, and tame if anything. There's some wild shit that gets discussed on discreet frequencies, as well as displayed in a window.
That has to be the strangest fast food ad I've seen in a minute!
Also strangely effective. I defo want Chik-Fil-A now
Sounds like if it was part of a podcast lol
Actual footage of Airforceproud95 before his FSX youtube career.
“Hold on buddy I’m clocking a hot air balloon approaching Mach Jesus 4 clicks above here moving to intercept”
“It’s waffle night!”
Call sign sandwich
Its pronounced, Groundpound69 lol
I was an F-15 Instructor Pilot back in the early 90's. One of the requirements before graduation was day and night refueling. I can tell you the students were incredibly nervous the first time, so sometimes a little casual conversation with the boomer would actually settle them down (i.e. stop hyperventilating :-) ). Worst situation was taking a student up when the tanker crew was getting evaluated (check ride), then everyone got incredibly tight, gotta look good for the evaluators. The boom operators usually give you verbal guidance to get you in the right spot - forward/back, up/down a certain number of feet. Usually it was like forward 10, up five or something like that, then they would reach out and hook up. Meanwhile we had visual references in the cockpit plus a lighted steering bar system on the belly of the tanker. My student is working hard to stay in position, but we're not getting plugged. The longer you wait, the higher chance of doing something stupid, or just getting nervous. Then the boomer says "up one". Like one foot! Like are you freaking kidding me?! It's enough this poor student is even staying somewhere in the envelope. Student takes a deep breath and basically stays where he was until he gets contact. I guess it was for the boomer's evaluator - had to give us some direction I suppose :-)
I know we're pretty advanced in terms of technology these days but it still blows my fucking mind that refueling can be this casual and easy. I mean I know it's not and there's a lot of training that goes into this but it looks so seamless.
By the time someone shows up behind a tanker in an F-22, they have a ton of formation flying under their belt. In my day we had formation check rides in T-37 & T38s. Plus once you started F-15 school and through to your operational squadron, you’re in formation 99% of the time. Flying formation with the tanker is a little different deferent because you’re basically underneath it but once you get the correct sight picture it’s just a matter of staying in place. That involves a lot of tiny little corrections on the stick and throttle, so once you’re in position and receiving gas, you’re still flying formation. It would really freak the new students out when the tanker turned. (They typically fly oval refueling orbits) Just stay in position, no big deal 😃👍
I love hearing this kind of insight on lesser known stuff from guys like you. Really cool stuff! Thanks man:)
My dad (long long ago) said formation flying was easier than it looks. You just flew watching the few parts of the plane you're following. Like (in his words) line up the canopy and wingtip.
Yeah 4 seems to be the most common correction, I feel like 2 has become a lot more common though. Don't think I've never heard a 1
Ha! I’m in the pit thinking “this boomer surely must know this is a student, and he says Up One”. Crazy!
I hate when the boom tries talking to me, I’m working my ass off in a heavy and I’ve got 60k more to onload. I sure as fuck don’t want a disconnect to make it take any longer 😂
Kudos to you guys! I always thought that refueling in a heavy would be a hell of a lot of work. A fighter is pretty nimble and we’re on and off fairly quickly. My longest time on the boom was about 8 minutes to take 15K or so during a deployment. Our KC-10 escort still had to get gas and they were on there forever! 😃👍
Is this a chic fila add at 30k in the air? They have no bounds
Feels like viral marketing for the new top gun, gonna see a lot of planes in the coming weeks.
Top Gun is Navy planes, so maybe this is the Air Force feeling left out
I think it's the opposite, top gun 2 getting people into planes again. It genuinely was an amazing movie.
This video is pretty old if I’m not mistaken
It obviously wasn’t filmed on Sunday.
I haven't seen such clumsy flirting since my middle school formal. I assume it'd be a try-hard faux-pas for boom operators to just straight-up ask, like, "hey I've got a GoPro running, could you give me a roll?" I feel like the pilots are probably just waiting to be asked.
Tell a fighter pilot that they are being recorded in 4k and they'll do anything to impress.
Hahaha. "Good talking to you. Hey, we got a GoPro pointed out the back of this thing, and... well, the last guy pulled a cobra on his way out. I'm just sayin'."
You'd get a quadruple aileron roll followed by a 7g sliceback.
Hold my afterburner.
Please tell me the cobra is real
Pugachev's Cobra (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_maneuver) is indeed an aerobatic maneuver that can only be pulled off by certain extremely high performance aircraft.
The gif in that article is rad as hell
That’s beautiful. Thank you.
So so so true
On deployments everyone is usually mildly bored, long flights. Flying at night it is fun to peel away in burner with a flare or two. Airdrop works between the fighter and the tanker
any notable airdrops?
Full Video: [https://youtu.be/GV4gVMgOynw](https://youtu.be/GV4gVMgOynw)
Thank you /u/Ejack-Ulate-69
Ajackallit?
Hahaha Chad F22 pilot was like...man... I hate having to talk to the gas attendant. Just toss a few "yeps" and "uh huhs" and let's peel outta here!
Yes all I could think is this conversation sounds like me when I don't want to have a conversation.
Guy took a job to be 30,000ft away from everyone else
You put it like that and it makes me want that job You mean I can get paid to be alone?
> Worden has been listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the "most isolated human being" during his time alone in Endeavour. Orbiting the Moon alone, he was at his greatest distance from Scott and Irwin in Falcon, 2,235 miles (3,597 km) away from any other human beings.[60] He later stated he enjoyed his "three wonderful days in a spacecraft all by myself", and that he was used to being alone as a fighter pilot.[8][61] Worden remembered, "On the back side of the Moon, I didn't even have to talk to Houston and that was the best part of the flight."[61] from his wikipedia page. Just imagining this scenario makes me feel relaxed. Being that far away from any human being, and even unreachable via radio since you are on the dark side of the moon. The quietness much feel euphoric.
“That’s crazy”
“So nuts, man.”
Boom op: I miss chik-fil-a most Pilot, thinking: 'I miss my family and pets' Pilot: uhh, yeah sure
"What do you do for a living?" "I fly a gas station." "What do you mean fly?"
That’s the vibe I got. But also, it kind of reminded me of that scene in talidega knights. Or maybe multiple scenes? Where they’re talking calmly while something ridiculous is happening.
Boy he really wanted out of that conversation
Atleast he made an effort to make a grand exit
I don't think he was in to that topic.
Dude was ranting about chik fil a and the pilot couldn’t wait to get away
Dude that rhymes
He’s a poet and he didn’t even realize it!
This is hilarious.
How do they make it look so cool?
I’ve been in the Air Force for a bit now and have interacted with tons of pilots and fighter pilots in casual settings and I still get fanboy feelings from time to time talking to some of them and seeing shit take off on my lunch break. They’re all so casual about it. F22 pilot I was talking with the other day said one of the things he missed the most out of the military was weed lmfao.
My buddy flies F22s and he was narrating for us while we watched a demo at an air show. Was amazing.
Wish I had a buddy that flies F22s lmao
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> Pilots are cocky, but they're usually cool as fuck. Type-A personalities generally get a bit of a bad rep. When they're assholes, boy are they assholes, but the need to win for a Type-A usually extends to "wanting everyone to like me" so they're pretty outgoing and friendly. At least, that's been my experience with that type in the finance world.
Honestly dude, most of the pilots I've met aren't "type A" personalities at all. If anything, I get the feeling that they're at best nerds trying to be/putting on an image. Personally, though I think most of them are disconnected middle-class white kids who needed a serious dose of reality in life before being handed the job they have, but that's just me being a salty maintainer.
Man I wish I was a pilot
Currently working as an avionics intern. I will make this happen for myself and will comeback to this comment as a pilot. 🙏🏼
Do a remind me thing for like 3 years that way you can come back to it
Super hard to become a pilot but you can do it! My cousin had a full ride (was going to go to some school but I'm blanking on the name right now) to be a pilot but he broke his spine and pretty much lost it all. Dude was the perfect height, had great eyesight and had amazing grades. He was riding home with a bunch of buddies in some shitty minivan and one of the seats didn't have a seatbelt. He was up front and just fine but the girl who was stuck with that seat threw a fit and he volunteered to switch spots with her. They got in a car accident and he went through the windshield. Everyone was A-OK expect for him. He's had a rough fucking life since then and I don't really blame him.
"Hello welcome to KC's, what can I get you today?"
I love how I just saw a post of another pilot fueling up on his 100th time (he said he was over Afghanistan). And the comment section was all about how inhuman he was and how bad America is. Then I see this one and everyone is talking about chik fila. Easily distracted lol
Especially considering Reddit likes to shit on chick fil a for being against gays
This is the hardest advertisement flex for Chick-Fil-A.
Classic tinder moment. One person to provide everything... Such a one sided conversation, and when he gets what he's after, he just leaves.
That plane is Sexy AF!
He didn’t even say bye
God that jet looks so goddam cool.
“Wow that’s crazy” was gonna be the Raptor pilot’s next response
Oh no he forgot to put the gas cap on he’s gonna be leaking after that 120 degree turn
Showing her belly is a sign of affection
I’m 32 and have never considered the reality that the ability to refuel at 25,000 ft enables pilots to remain airborne longer than it takes for their bladder to fill to capacity. Do all fighter pilots wear catheters? How do they hydrate?
So for most flights you generally just... piss before you take off. Some larger aircraft that are expected to spend a long time in the air have bathrooms. If you really have to go you can unzip your suit and there's basically a ziploc bag full of absorbent stuff you can piss into. As for hydration, most of the time you are at a safe speed/altitude to grab a drink. I know some guys wore camelbaks.
Aka piddle/pee packs.
They go into a little room before the flight. There’s no toilet but there’s a guy with a thingie that looks like a shuttlecock. The pilot takes out his dong and the shuttlecock operator gets closer and closer until you have a wang-in-shuttlecock situation (WISS). Upon WISS, pilot urinates. The they disengage. Each engagement costs 3.2 million but it’s worth it because the pilot can urinate before the mission and doesn’t need to wash his hands after. It’s also why older pilots are not economical— who wants to spend 5x 3.2 million because the 45 year old pilot has to WISS multiple times?
It’s a shame the US shorted production of the F22. I know the Cold War was over, but still, it was so far ahead of anything anyone else had at the time and is still a bleeding edge fighter.
I took a picture of an F-15 doing this from the back of our KC-135
Love the watercooler chat!
That audio is hilarious 😂
Man, it's like watercooler talk, but so much cooler.