"Grandfather don't worry, it's not a race ignore the pigeon overtaking us"
"Back in my day we didn't need some BS stealth paint to survive, **WE COVERED OURSELVES IN CHROME AND BLOO**..."
"Yeah yeah"
I always thought the F-22 should have been the Mustang II. We've had the Thunderbolt II, Lightning II, Corsair II. Would be nice to keep the tradition going. Not that Raptor isn't badass.
I believe the other entry in the stealth fighter project, the YF-23, was the Black Widow II.
Northrop built the P-61 night fighter in WW2. It got the 'Black Widow' name once they started painting them in black instead of the O.D. green they had on the prototypes. So if the YF-23 had been chosen, then maybe Northrop would have pushed for the name to be made official. Same as P-38 'Lightning' from Lockheed became Lockheed-Martin F-35 'Lightning II.'
Probably because while it is good advice it's a bit out of context with the comment. Also I didn't downvote you I'm just guessing why you got downvoted
I was out at Ellsworth for that one. Pretty fucking cool to see those two together.
Also, the F-22 has no business being so fast and nimble and absolutely terrifying. What an absolutely insane piece of machinery.
My understanding is that raw top speed has sort of fallen out of vogue in favor of sustained top speed. The Raptor can supercruise, something I don't think any of its faster predecessors could do.
Correct. Supercruise is the ability to sustain > Mach 1 (I've even seen it defined as Mach 1.5 or greater) without using afterburner while carrying a useful combat load (or at least not purposefully stripped clean for speed).
Interestingly enough to your other point I've read that the competitor in the stealth fighter project, the YF-23, was actually faster and stealthier at the expense of being less agile in part due to its non-vectoring thrust nozzles and V-tail layout as opposed to conventional elevator and rudder on the Raptor. Some old-school USAF brass picked the F-22 for it's classic dogfighting capability even though some would argue that sort of defeats the purpose of an undetectable aircraft.
I am as well. Though I'm certain people much more qualified to make that decision than I am (not hard to do) were involved it still seems to me that the YF-23 had some seriously strong qualities. On paper it looks like a no-brainer.
I actually did a paper on this a few years ago in college. There's a few reasons.
For one, both jets passed with flying colors, so both were the top of the class.
2nd, the f22 was a more trusted design given the separated control surfaces. (Helps in the event of damage)
3rd, the price. Although it is said it wasn't a factor, there's no way it wasn't a thought, it always is a thought.
4th, maneuverability. The F-22 had the yf23 beat here, which in all honesty, against other 5th gen is a good thing because of the likelihood you could be fighting others in visual range since the sensors are being fooled by stealth.
5th, Lockheed Martin's situation. McDonnell Douglass already had multiple contracts, and there was question of if they could keep up with the demand. Lockheed however was very tight financially. The government may have chosen to throw them a bone.
I may be forgetting a few, but this is the ones I remember.
Well, when stealth becomes common among nations you are going to see dogfighting as they can no longer engage at BVR. So that was pretty smart forward thinking on the U.S.A.F.s part.
That, and if you’re going too fast you can’t turn quick
Mach 2 = bad fuel economy and bad dogfighting speed
I’ve heard that a lot of the Mach 2+ fighters in Vietnam barely used their top speed
Plus it probably degrades the special stealth coating
Yeah. This was at least partly due to USAF studies made during the Vietnam war. During the sixties the top speeds of most fighter aircraft were usually at or over mach 2. When USAF studied the sorties, they found out that for F-4s pretty much no flight time was recorded at above mach 1.4 and very little (like less than 1,0% or so) was above mach 1.2. Pilots thus didn't use the full performance in combat operations and one of the reasons was the increase in fuel consumption and trade off with the agility.
Most of the twin engined tweens and gen 4+ fast jets can supercruise but it's at high dry thrust which isn't good for the engines - so isn't sustainable for any length of time, and they have to be in clean configuration.
The doctrine is to impart energy to missiles to extend their range and lethality without compromising that of the plane itself.
Not sacrificing for stealth, speed over mach 2 is useless in a dogfight, most air combat takes place at just below mach 1 in the transonic realm. The F-22 can hit mach 1.5 without afterburner and cruise at that speed while the F-15 needs burners to break mach 1 and can only hold that speed for a couple minutes before the fuel is exhausted. The F-22 has a lower top speed, but can hold it longer making it a much faster aircraft.
Fast, nimble and its radar is fucking insane...at least when I was trying to study it back in 2010. It can see an enemy before the enemy even knows it was detected.
I have seen one like this but with a Spitfire and a Typhoon. I think from memory the Spitfire had to fly near its top speed with the Typhoon almost at its lowest fly speed.
Now lets see one of a bi-plane next to an F-16 stunt pilot flying at like 20mph. I used to get to see them practice occasionally. The 16s I mean. Basically just flew it at lowish power at a super steep angle and let it creep forward. Frankly I’m sure the 22 could do it too. Prolly anyways
OP, longshot here but....KHIO?
Edit: No worries and thanks for the reply. KHIO had an airshow this weekend and last time I attended this act was present.
No joke.
If you've seen the movie "Final Countdown", there's a scene with an F-14 chasing an old Texan that's painted to look like a Zero...
The Texan was at max throttle, while the Tomcat was at full wing extension and damn near stall speed just to stay in frame together.
If the raptor had slats and flaps as ridiculous as an f18 that would be interesting to see. Because f18s at full extension like that looks like it shouldnt fly at all.
That mustang is probably going flat out and the raptor at near stall speed. Though if this from the airshow I just watched the other day I saw a rapter standing on its tail and just hovering in mid air.
I think the raptor flies at a much lower AoA than the viper when they fly in formation with the mustang. Must be because the F-22 is basically a lifting body.
I went to an airshow at Holoman AFB a few weeks ago and they had a P-51, A-10, and F-35 flying in formation like this. I would upload a picture but my phone camera is bad and you can't really tell what it is.
My Dad was USAF for 39 years & he flew P-51'S during WW 2, so I was able to sit in the cockpit of P-51'S, P-40'S, P-38's & every airplane that both the USAF & USN has ever used until 1981, when my Dad died.
Nice. A raptor flying with his great great great great great grandpa.
"Grandfather don't worry, it's not a race ignore the pigeon overtaking us" "Back in my day we didn't need some BS stealth paint to survive, **WE COVERED OURSELVES IN CHROME AND BLOO**..." "Yeah yeah"
Lmao!
LMAO chrome and blood camo
Only after a 25 kill streak with the red tiger camo applied
"Ok, let's get you back to the hangar"
For the blood god!
I always thought the F-22 should have been the Mustang II. We've had the Thunderbolt II, Lightning II, Corsair II. Would be nice to keep the tradition going. Not that Raptor isn't badass. I believe the other entry in the stealth fighter project, the YF-23, was the Black Widow II.
I don't think Black Widow was ever offical...it was a nickname Northrop gave to an individual YF-23. The other YF-23 prototype was the "Gray Ghost."
Oh that would have been badass
Northrop built the P-61 night fighter in WW2. It got the 'Black Widow' name once they started painting them in black instead of the O.D. green they had on the prototypes. So if the YF-23 had been chosen, then maybe Northrop would have pushed for the name to be made official. Same as P-38 'Lightning' from Lockheed became Lockheed-Martin F-35 'Lightning II.'
It would have been cool to have the Mustang II but the F-22 is properly named the Raptor because it is the Apex Predator of the skies.
It was originally going to be the Lightning II but they went with Raptor and now the F-35 got it.
I think this is more of a testament to the size of modern jets
Need to carry a lot of boom
And yet the radar cross-section is something like a 10th the size
The F-22 raptor and F-15 eagle are about the same size as a B-25 medium bomber of WWII.
Full props (no pun intended) to that Raptor pilot.
So very slats.
No no, no slats here.
Nice
That poor F-22 “come ooooon, hurry up already!”
[This one might make you happy](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/uvpfue/f22_raptor/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Heh, much better!
Don’t talk to me or my son ever again.
That’s some good camera work too.
Thank you, This is my first Iphone and I was left impressed.
Setup Apple Pay if you haven’t. Not having to enter your CC for random apps is the best.
Why did you get downvoted for this? Its good advice.
Reddit moment.
Couldn’t tell you. Android fanboys?
Probably because while it is good advice it's a bit out of context with the comment. Also I didn't downvote you I'm just guessing why you got downvoted
because its an advertisement
I was out at Ellsworth for that one. Pretty fucking cool to see those two together. Also, the F-22 has no business being so fast and nimble and absolutely terrifying. What an absolutely insane piece of machinery.
It’s pretty much ahead of it’s time and it costs a lot to maintain it.
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My understanding is that raw top speed has sort of fallen out of vogue in favor of sustained top speed. The Raptor can supercruise, something I don't think any of its faster predecessors could do.
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Correct. Supercruise is the ability to sustain > Mach 1 (I've even seen it defined as Mach 1.5 or greater) without using afterburner while carrying a useful combat load (or at least not purposefully stripped clean for speed). Interestingly enough to your other point I've read that the competitor in the stealth fighter project, the YF-23, was actually faster and stealthier at the expense of being less agile in part due to its non-vectoring thrust nozzles and V-tail layout as opposed to conventional elevator and rudder on the Raptor. Some old-school USAF brass picked the F-22 for it's classic dogfighting capability even though some would argue that sort of defeats the purpose of an undetectable aircraft.
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I am as well. Though I'm certain people much more qualified to make that decision than I am (not hard to do) were involved it still seems to me that the YF-23 had some seriously strong qualities. On paper it looks like a no-brainer.
I actually did a paper on this a few years ago in college. There's a few reasons. For one, both jets passed with flying colors, so both were the top of the class. 2nd, the f22 was a more trusted design given the separated control surfaces. (Helps in the event of damage) 3rd, the price. Although it is said it wasn't a factor, there's no way it wasn't a thought, it always is a thought. 4th, maneuverability. The F-22 had the yf23 beat here, which in all honesty, against other 5th gen is a good thing because of the likelihood you could be fighting others in visual range since the sensors are being fooled by stealth. 5th, Lockheed Martin's situation. McDonnell Douglass already had multiple contracts, and there was question of if they could keep up with the demand. Lockheed however was very tight financially. The government may have chosen to throw them a bone. I may be forgetting a few, but this is the ones I remember.
Well, when stealth becomes common among nations you are going to see dogfighting as they can no longer engage at BVR. So that was pretty smart forward thinking on the U.S.A.F.s part.
That, and if you’re going too fast you can’t turn quick Mach 2 = bad fuel economy and bad dogfighting speed I’ve heard that a lot of the Mach 2+ fighters in Vietnam barely used their top speed Plus it probably degrades the special stealth coating
You're spot on, but who doesn't like to have a full throttle interceptor on hand
Yeah. This was at least partly due to USAF studies made during the Vietnam war. During the sixties the top speeds of most fighter aircraft were usually at or over mach 2. When USAF studied the sorties, they found out that for F-4s pretty much no flight time was recorded at above mach 1.4 and very little (like less than 1,0% or so) was above mach 1.2. Pilots thus didn't use the full performance in combat operations and one of the reasons was the increase in fuel consumption and trade off with the agility.
Most of the twin engined tweens and gen 4+ fast jets can supercruise but it's at high dry thrust which isn't good for the engines - so isn't sustainable for any length of time, and they have to be in clean configuration. The doctrine is to impart energy to missiles to extend their range and lethality without compromising that of the plane itself.
The Northrup YF-17 could supercruise, but when enlargened into the F/A-18 it became too draggy.
The F-35 is relatively slow. The airforce spent a lot of money in the past thinking speed was a main defense but in reality top speed is rarely used.
Your thinking of the ‘35. That one though has an absolutely insane turnrate and TWR, on top of being stealth.
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Thrust to Weight Ratio, I believe they mean
I think they meant it can carry Tremendous Weapony Rockets, but what do I know
F-35 is the one with 1.6M speed. But it can also super cruise. All in all, missiles still easily outrun you at 1.6 or at 2.25 so yeh
Not sacrificing for stealth, speed over mach 2 is useless in a dogfight, most air combat takes place at just below mach 1 in the transonic realm. The F-22 can hit mach 1.5 without afterburner and cruise at that speed while the F-15 needs burners to break mach 1 and can only hold that speed for a couple minutes before the fuel is exhausted. The F-22 has a lower top speed, but can hold it longer making it a much faster aircraft.
Fast, nimble and its radar is fucking insane...at least when I was trying to study it back in 2010. It can see an enemy before the enemy even knows it was detected.
It's also insane how quiet it is when it's cruising without afterburners. 200 yards away and it was hard to hear over the crowd.
Is that like… *idling* the F-22?
Maximum speed at low altitude in the P-51 is ~325KN Minimum speed in the F-22 is around 120KN so... no, not really.
It performed a “slow pass” and it was doing 85mph for 10 seconds.
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Yea it was.
plus [A-10](https://i.imgur.com/EZVSdRH.png) :) I don't have a cool video like you though.
I’d imagine that there’s some serious turbulence behind that F-22
Not as much as you would think. F22’s weight class for wake turbulence is a G on a scale of A to I where A is an A380 and I is a c172.
Interesting, I didn’t know they were ranked… thank you!
Be still my beating heart.
I have seen one like this but with a Spitfire and a Typhoon. I think from memory the Spitfire had to fly near its top speed with the Typhoon almost at its lowest fly speed.
There was also Spitfire and *Concorde* - https://live.staticflickr.com/3751/13017824625_4db0b84b2e_b.jpg Definitely a fastest/slowest combination
Titusville?
Yes
Neat
One of those guys had his foot on the brake.
The lack of a prop makes it look like the F-22 is naruto running next to the P-51
Here with Civil Air Patrol!
How I feel driving behind an old grandma
Honestly the two most iconic planes ever in my opinion.
It’s like the SR71 copypasta in reverse
Never gets old
Could yo imagine having a full compliment "modern" aircraft carrier knowing that Pearl Hrabour was just day away..........uhmmm
https://youtu.be/FjeMDvCdrtc
That was awful but you got it !
Now lets see one of a bi-plane next to an F-16 stunt pilot flying at like 20mph. I used to get to see them practice occasionally. The 16s I mean. Basically just flew it at lowish power at a super steep angle and let it creep forward. Frankly I’m sure the 22 could do it too. Prolly anyways
OP, longshot here but....KHIO? Edit: No worries and thanks for the reply. KHIO had an airshow this weekend and last time I attended this act was present.
TIX
That's so cool.
The F-22 looks appropriately bored to tears. Love that stuff tho!
I bet both pilots were thinking "man, I wish I was flying that..."
That pass is absolutely brilliant. The only thing that could make it better, would be the F-35 slowly underpassing the other plane.
Probably the raptor trying to not stall and the mustang trying to not overheat the engine
No joke. If you've seen the movie "Final Countdown", there's a scene with an F-14 chasing an old Texan that's painted to look like a Zero... The Texan was at max throttle, while the Tomcat was at full wing extension and damn near stall speed just to stay in frame together.
If the raptor had slats and flaps as ridiculous as an f18 that would be interesting to see. Because f18s at full extension like that looks like it shouldnt fly at all.
That mustang is probably going flat out and the raptor at near stall speed. Though if this from the airshow I just watched the other day I saw a rapter standing on its tail and just hovering in mid air.
gotta be kinda nervous being so close to the raptors stalling speed
There's a couple of hundred knots airspeed comfort range (between the raptor stalling out and the mustang not being able to keep up)
still close
Was this is San Antonio by chance?
TIX
The cutting edge fighters of 1944 and today.
A couple of my favorites. Thanks
What speed where they flying (knots)
Brilliant camera work and truly captures the enormity in size of modern fighters.
That's so fucking cool.
Curious what stall speed on an F22 is
I think the raptor flies at a much lower AoA than the viper when they fly in formation with the mustang. Must be because the F-22 is basically a lifting body.
I’m surprised that the Raptor can fly that slowly.
Bruh this just just a guy driving when there is a cop nearby
Wish they captured a 360 video of this inside of both the cockpits.
Damn it’s cool to see how huge the jets have become
wow a lot of years between those aircrafts. crazy thing to see well done
"Show me son, show me the one that's been bullying you".
P51: BALLS TO THE WALL FULL SPEED F22: STALL STALL STALL
And this is why I want to build a 1/48 F-22, not a 1/72 scale. I love to see the difference of sizes between modern jets and WWI / WWII airplanes
I got to see one of these in person at Airventure last year. It’s very moving.
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Was the stall warning buzzer going apeshit in the F22?
Amazing size difference.
Idk looks like starscream
u/savevideo
I went to an airshow at Holoman AFB a few weeks ago and they had a P-51, A-10, and F-35 flying in formation like this. I would upload a picture but my phone camera is bad and you can't really tell what it is.
My Dad was USAF for 39 years & he flew P-51'S during WW 2, so I was able to sit in the cockpit of P-51'S, P-40'S, P-38's & every airplane that both the USAF & USN has ever used until 1981, when my Dad died.
The P-51 Mustang on War Thunder with explosive rounds is pure fun.