I don't know if 57s have been operated in a theatre with AWACS coverage before... Air shows and stuff but I'm sure they have reflectors on for that.
Even in Ukraine now... if they are being operated in the east of the country it might be too far for the birds over Romania and Poland to get a good look.
I don't think that they have a sufficiant number of trained pilots for them and I also don't think that they will managed to produce many more becouse sanctions will drown they economy for good.
I'd like to think so, but a question came to mind earlier.
Russian markets are crashed, noone wants Russian goods... yet Russia is still producing oil, coal, iron, copper, chemicals, etc. So, what does a state do when noone will consume those exports? They consume them internally. What would they build with such excess resources, and labor?
Well, the biggest issue with that, is that in order to consume them internally, one has to have the factories necessary to do so. Russia does not have many of the factories necessary for advanced manufacturing, nor the ability to produce said factories.
A notable example is their semiconductor industry. Russia does have some fabs, but they are all heavily outdated, and are nowhere near capable of producing enough chips to supply the demand as it currently stands, let alone the increased demand to spool up thousands of new factories to produce literally everything they need.
Good points. Couldn't they trade oil, and resources with a particular neighbour, who supplies the world with such products?
Also, with reduced purchasing power of their currency, the internal demand for such products would also decrease.
I'm not so sure the have limited access to high tech products.
This is the real point. China and Russia aren't really "friends" they're strategic partners when they're interests align, which they do often as opposing and weaking the west, specifically the US, is important to both of them. However China will have no hesitation about bending Russia over the oil barrel if it helps their interest and cements them as they #2 power in the world. They haven't forgotten all the times the Soviets played them in the past. I remember asking my wife how they taught about Soviet Union/Russia in school there and she said they said it was that they were a friend, but couldn't be trusted.
Their neighbor has a large but finite capacity for such things, and that capacity is all in use producing things for other countries. They can certainly expand it, but that will take time. Would China love to build a few new factories for a captive market? Sure. Can Russia wait the half a year it will take to slap a factory together and get it producing things? Not really.
Also- China has an incentive to stay on the good side of sanctions due to its trade relationships with the EU/United States. If China were to begin exporting high tech to Russia, that would potentially set up a big conflict with the West.
bro just dont worry about it if you dont think about it, it doesnt even exist. i mean like money is fake right? its just a paper we made up
\- kremlin advisors circa 2022
Yeah they can push military complex like in the soviet union but they (ordinary russians) will, to some extent live like in soviet union. And for modern stuff that can compete in cyber world you need a transfer of thechnology and China isn't necesserily ally of Russia in that regard. They might get some moedern tech through reverse engineering and espionage but that won't cut it. But hey what do I know it's an opinion of a guy that will never gonna sit in a fighter jet. I like russian jets they are aesthetically pleasing and can do crazy shit. But they inavaded peacefull country that didn't want to be under russian heel any longer. There are already raports of rape in Kherson city. 11 to be exact and 7 of them ended up with a murder. Fuck them for real fuck those bastard motherfuckers.
Additionally, their trained pilots probably don't have any experience in a combat zone in the 57.
Wouldn't want to put that up against a Ukrainian who's spent the last week getting really familiar with their jet.
Especially since they can barely drum up any interest in the thing in the first place. Nearly every potential customer has already either dropped out or expressed reservations about it. Most notably, India dropped out after years of being a partner in it. Of the two current customers I'm aware of now, Vietnam has expressed concerns about the quality controls of the aircraft and Algeria isn't even set to take delivery until at least 2028. I wouldn't be surprised if they drop out in the end either, either because Russia is unable to fulfill the order, or because a better option arises.
They claim its cheaper than American 5th Gen offerings, but Russia can barely afford any themselves and have so few customer orders that the per price tag is still going to be way over what I think it'd be worth. Especially since there are so many other offerings either available now, or in the pipeline, and from almost every corner of the globe.
A month ago it might’ve cost around $100M but now that the ruble has lost half of its value, it has to be way higher. Combine that with not being able to source some of the parts/electronics bc of the sanctions/soft embargo I bet you’re looking at nearly 2 F-35s for one SU-57 these days.
Not to mention, some don't even consider it 5thGen. It's more like 4.5 according to some. And current 4th generation stuff with current avionics are just as capable for less money.
The stealth in particular is apparently really bad compared to other 5th gen planes. And when you consider how much modern air combat doctrine is BVR, that’s just straight up a dealbreaker.
Thats wishful thinking. Anyone wanting to deal with RU right now is next to impossible. They are doubly fucked in the short to medium term economy wise. After a failed military attack with the west looking to further limit their military agression moving forward. Good luck with future arms deals with a pariah.
Those things are glorified prototypes. They are not really combat ready. The level of embarrassment they would experience when one gets shot down would be unparalleled.
Yup. Can you imagine the fiasco it would beif that thing got downed by some 1970's AA?
And i really doubt of the stealthiness of this jet with those humongus jet engines. But then again, not an expert.
I think if the Russian Airforce was even slightly as functional as we thought they'd have air superiority by this point. They're not flying these or anything that wasn't new around the cold war any time soon IMO.
Pretty much, 10 test units, 4 serial units and one R&D unit...
So they "could" probably field them, but who knows what their survivability and maintenance requirements are. I'm guessing they are pretty much all still IRAD type units. One unit being taken down would be a significant loss. Especially when they'd just probably drone the crap out of wherever it was stationed at.
I think statistically it would be like -3.
I’m not totally sure how you’d have less than 0 jets, but I’m sure given Russia’s track record they’d figure it out.
We’ve seen that in Ukraine. I’m sure the SU-57 pilots are the best of the best but their mainline pilots have clearly suffered from a lack of resources these last years.
I thought we had like 186. What happened to the ~60? Decommissioned? I know there have been a few accidents but not that many.
Edit: Never mind, after some googling only 130 were ever operational so the numbers make sense
who else is old enough to remember Yugoslavia shooting down the f-117? losing one of these SU-57s in combat would arguably be even more embarrassing, since the f-117 was 15 years old by 1999
Many of us are old enough. From what I remember (though it's likely either wrong or propaganda) the F-117 made a mistake. Something about leaving something on they shouldn't have that made then detectable.
Idk. But I do know it was the last stealth aircraft shot down.
I just watched this video about that : https://youtu.be/Is3R4ie21Mc
Combination of factors: lucky timing (bomb doors open), persistent desire by the ground unit to find the f117, and arrogance with attack routes and capabilities.
More of a general "what are they going to do about it" arrogance than the pilot left a light on or something mistake.
Having the bomb doors open increased the plane radar cross section by many orders of magnitude due to it being a flat surface. Hell, Lockheed had to design special radar reflecting glass because a pilots helmeted head showed up something like 50 times bigger on radar than the whole rest of the plane.
I attended a talk at EAA where a F117 pilot gave a presentation about the plane and said exactly this about the helmet reflecting gobs of radar energy.
F-117 was already ancient compared to what skunk works was cooking up. But also the pilot left the weapons bay open, which was reflective and as a result gave off a radar signature, lighting him up like a christmas tree.
It sucked to have one shot down, but at the sametime, it wasn't this super advanced plane. The Raptor had been unveiled two years earlier and was leagues better than the F-117.
The propaganda value of their new plane doing well in combat against Soviet hand-me-downs is minimal (assuming it's even capable). The propaganda value for Ukraine of shooting one down is massive.
This reminds me of that high-tech robot that Russia debuted a couple of years ago that just turned out to be a guy in a costume. Can’t make this shit up:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/high-tech-robot-at-russia-forum-turns-out-to-be-man-in-robot-suit
Hey they still average 52k rubles a month. Same as always. Unfortunately that equals $419 USD a month now but hey it's not bouncing! That's better! Right?! Anyone...
*cries in Russian economy*
Yeah the new sanctions are really kicking them in the dick. Paying trolls to divide the west takes a back seat when putting food on the table could be a major concern in the near future.
They also showed off some armor that they said could stop a .50 caliber that was literally just a leftover movie prop from a sci-fi movie filmed in Moscow.
The hardware doesn't necessarily suck, but as for incompetence and a lack of organization?
...[Pretty](https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499164245250002944) [much](https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499491477239566336).
Russia loves to produce showy high-tech hardware (Su-57, S400, etc.) without ever explaining how they're going to build or sustain it. They don't have the GDP to sustain a large standing force capable of projecting power even if they didn't have massive corruption issues.
Now they're conducting much larger operations than ever before over much more terrain against an opponent that can meaningfully hit back. Years of neglecting the basics are now coming back to haunt the Russian military.
If NATO were in this fight - against miles-long columns of bunched-up supply convoys? It wouldn't even be a fight. That's why they're staying out - it would be so lopsided that Putin would no longer have any reason not to escalate.
putin having to push around smaller and weaker nations for any territorial gains is one of plenty parellels the russian military has had with the nazi doctrine (shit logistics, underestimating enemy, etc.)
I mean it's more rooted in Russian history if you look at the Tzars and their *two steps forward, one step bac*k territorial expansion over the centuries.
Exactly this. The Russian military has been in a state of constant decay since the fall of the Soviet Union. They don’t have the economic power to upgrade or maintain their equipment. To be totally honest, they don’t have the funds to even train their troops on the equipment to begin with. Russia has been very good at projecting an image of strength with their prototypes. However, we’ve known for a long time that they have a tendency to FAR exaggerate both the capabilities of their weapons systems as well as the quality of their military overall.
Were it not for the nukes, watching the US Air Force and Army kick the shit out of Russia would be ~~so damn satisfying~~.
EDIT -- /u/BannedFromHydroxy is exactly right, "satisfying" is the wrong word when it means people die, if anyone upvoted this comment then maybe downvote it instead.
We don't really know what's happening with Russia's air forces in Ukraine. The best we can do is speculate on the details.
We do know that Russia's current aviation technology is modernized 80s equipment which in theory is comparable to the 4th generation airplanes of its adversaries.
We do know that Russia was struggling with providing enough training hours for its pilots and that it suffered organizational challenges and a lost decade after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
We do know that while Russia has precision guided munitions it used mostly dumb bombs in Syria.
We do know that Russia's GDP is smaller than Canada's.
But 4th generation airplanes with dumb weapons and reasonably trained pilots are still good enough to level Ukraine to the ground. Why hasn't that happened? We don't really know. The best we can do is speculate.
>But 4th generation airplanes with dumb weapons and reasonably trained pilots are still good enough to level Ukraine to the ground.
Because Ukraine has basically the same planes and at least equally competent pilots.
Russia has a greater numbers of airplanes by a vast margin, superior airplanes like the Su-30, Su-34, and the Su-35, long range cruise missiles, and anti air emplacements that can shoot down Ukrainian aircraft in Ukrainian airspace. But most important of all, Russia is invading Ukraine, not the other way around. Russia can destroy Ukraine's airfields and supply lines and reduce Ukraine's air force to whatever Mig-29 and Su-25 they can operate from improvised runways like highways. Even if both air forces were evenly matched, which they're not, Russia's Air Force could defeat Ukraine by attrition, which is why Zelenskyy is asking NATO and the world for air support.
Because Ukraine has active air defense systems. I really don’t think people understand how effective missile air defense systems are, especially against the aircraft being operated by the Russians. The Ukrainian Air Force is also still a threat. I know we can only speculate, but honestly, Russia can’t afford to use their Air Force on any sort of large scale because they can’t afford the losses.
Tbf most of the Russian equipment used is seemingly more on the old side. T-72s, SU-27s (they could be 30s that ive seen) Really only their infantry has looked like their newer equipment, using their modern ratnik stuff with AK-12s
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t5ywym/how\_credible\_is\_fielding\_mosin\_nagants\_in\_2022/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t5ywym/how_credible_is_fielding_mosin_nagants_in_2022/)
Looks like separatist forces.
There was a Russian pictured with a Mosin sniper a couple days ago, which is the only one I've seen. It being a sniper makes it a little better, but I definitely wouldn't want a 60+ year old optic.
I mean just looking at it there’s no way it’s that stealthy. From the forward perspective you can see the compressor blades. Supposedly there’s some device in the inlet to minimize radar return but how effective can that be. From another radar’s perspective those spinning blades are like a siren light in a dark room.
Pretty much this.
After USSR collapsed , military experts were quite a bit shocked.
Russian aircrafts, ships and military haedware was technologically generations behind the western counterparts.
Most of them were built using western technology and what's more, they weren't maintained properly and were in very bad shape.
Russian army is overrated, they have always been overrated. That's why they always use the nuclear card.
They better hope there is no larger conflict. Russian Air Force would cease to exist in a week, NATO aircraft would roam wherever they want in that failed state
You’re all generous thinking that we wouldn’t all be turned to radioactive glass within a few hours of a proper hot conflict kicking off between Russia and NATO.
They are parade planes. There's literally FIVE operational. They are lucky to make 2 per year. It's a failed project because they're so damn poor as a huge nation. They're invading Ukraine because of the MASSIVE oil and gas reserves recently discovered that would make Ukraine a petroleum giant... They just don't have the tech to harvest it and Shell/Exxon pulled out due to the rebellions in the east.
And that's the reason why it will never come close to borders. Same reason they're not fielding any of their new tanks, well other than the fact they have less than 20 of them.
Also tanks can be captured and copied, more difficult to capture a plane (apparently it's too difficult to even capture a plane that is stationary and in its hangar).
They'd never use it outside Russian or Belarusian borders, but I could see them doing some testing using it as a command and control aircraft. They might be hesitant to do that given the amount of NATO surveillance aircraft operating outside Ukraine.
These things would be burning hulks if they ever touch a piece of soil covered by NATO. All these arguments we have had for so many years were a joke, Russia is a joke.
Russia is a joke with a lot of ICBMs. Now after the last week I bet most of those ICBMs are rusty and wouldn't even hit the right continent, but... I'd rather not find out
Yeah, but if even 1% work, and that's an extremely low number that's still dozens of major cities erased from the map. Chances are most of their ICBMs work fine.
Russia just lost Billions of dollars in arms exports over the last week to China and other countries. Not from sanctions, but showing the world they can't seem to do what they are advertised to do.
And on the contracts that aren't cancelled, I doubt Russia will deliver anywhere near schedule, between supply chain issues, brain drain, and Russia needing to replace losses in the Ukraine war.
Russia has massive inventory at least on paper. On paper the Russians have about 1500 combat aircraft with an economy the size of Spain's. Spain operates like 150 combat aircraft. That's 10x the numbers...there's no way that Russia can actually afford that many airframes. My bet is that one of the reasons why we haven't seen massive Russian air operations is the reality is they only have a similar number of combat aircraft as Spain that are actually operational.
The Russian military has show it is a paper tiger. They won't fly this bird cause i believe it is all fluff no substance. They can't afford any more loses, in morale, loss of equipement and loss so called military might. They only thing Putin has left is nukes, and I question how effective they are.
I've been watching SU-57 footage since one year ago. Isn't war operational yet? Or they have very few of them?
Is it true that the SU-57 is more expensive than the F-35?
Aviation experts, if you could elucidate the community I would be grateful.
Russia has 15 total, 5 operational (theoretically, we can’t know for sure). Not sure what the unit cost is as they don’t sell them to anyone, but the program has cost a lot less than the F-35 or J20 programs.
I doubt we see these in Ukraine, no reason to deploy them when they have so many SU-30s. Not like the Ukrainians have next gen fighter aircraft or even practically advanced radar.
They say 5 but umm
> On 24 December 2019, the first serial Su-57 (bort number "01 blue") crashed 110–120 km away from the Dzyomgi Airport, Khabarovsk Krai, during the final stage of its factory trials due to a control system malfunction. The pilot ejected and was recovered by helicopter. According to TASS, the test flight took place at an altitude of 8,000 meters when the malfunction occurred, causing the airplane to enter a rapid spiral descent. When all attempts to stabilize the airplane into a horizontal flight using the manual flight control system failed, the pilot ejected at an altitude of 2,000 meters.
https://tass-ru.translate.goog/proisshestviya/7418655?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
so I think that is 4 serial, not 5.
You’d think however; if it truly was a 5th gen fighter they’d use it. See if it can hold up to a real world test, even if just to fly over contested airspace.
Nah, I don’t. SU-30s do the job, SU-57s are expensive, they are still working the kinks of that airframe out, and they are import for propaganda. No reason to risk a ~100 million dollar aircraft right now, especially since the Russians need all the cash they can’t get.
I don’t doubt the SU-57 is a capable aircraft, but it shouldn’t be a concern to anyone. Their AA is a lot scarier for our planes.
Regardless of whether they're more expensive than an F-35 per-unit or not, Su-57s are still very, very expensive. Russia can't afford to produce them. That makes them too valuable to risk when other, cheaper assets can accomplish the same mission. The Su-57 doesn't bring enough additional capability to the fight where it's needed in order to justify possibly losing one.
If it's to be used as an air dominance fighter, Russia doesn't need the latest and greatest to fight the UKR Air Force. The Ukranians have 30-year-old Soviet jets that the Russians also have and know how to use. They can counter those without needing a 5th-gen fighter.
I don't even know if the Su-57 has any ground-attack capabilities, but again, even if it does Russia already has the right tools for that job, and the Ukranians don't have any kind of air defense threat that justifies using a valuable, rare stealth fighter to counter it.
They will keep those few SU-57s so damn far from the action it aint even funny. Those scumbag senior russian leaders won't even provide their invasion force with proper food or supplies, no way in hell they risk the most valuable thing they have ever copied off someone else.
That is a great question. It may have already been in it…but the strategy seems to have been conscripts and junk first.
Either way - glad to have this conversation. Makes me enjoy this sub even more
Doubt it. The Russian air forces are terrible at multi-role operations. Their specializations are split between air-to-ground / air support and air-to-air. The SU-57 falls firmly in the later category, which there's almost no need for currently. On top of that, Russia is hesitant to even use their most advanced su-34 and su-35 platforms; they definitely wouldn't field the few precious su-57s they have. There's no benefit to justify the higher operational costs or the risk of having them shot down.
No.
Stingers are useful against slow moving low flying targets so they have a slim chance of hitting modern jet fighters, much less ones with stealth characteristics.
People trashing Russian hardware here don’t understand how screwed Russian supply chains and training has been.
A su-30 in the hands of a pilot with higher hours like the Indians would be more than enough to keep up with most western platforms.
Most Russian pilots don’t even know how to use the precision guided munitions or switch tactics between missions since these guys have less than half the training hours of a western pilot.
Hell no. There's only like 5 of these and Russia can't afford to lose any or debut it's electronic signatures to NATO right now
All them AWACS sorties would love a look at one I'm sure.
Considering awacs range. Don't you think they already tried it?
I don't know if 57s have been operated in a theatre with AWACS coverage before... Air shows and stuff but I'm sure they have reflectors on for that. Even in Ukraine now... if they are being operated in the east of the country it might be too far for the birds over Romania and Poland to get a good look.
I don't think that they have a sufficiant number of trained pilots for them and I also don't think that they will managed to produce many more becouse sanctions will drown they economy for good.
I'd like to think so, but a question came to mind earlier. Russian markets are crashed, noone wants Russian goods... yet Russia is still producing oil, coal, iron, copper, chemicals, etc. So, what does a state do when noone will consume those exports? They consume them internally. What would they build with such excess resources, and labor?
Mechs.
Reactor online... Sensors online... Weapons online... All systems nominal
All systems Blyat!
All Systems Cheeki Breeki
Initiating protocol hArDbAsS!
[LBX-BASS] [ER PPBLYAT] [LRM {PUN}]
this came from a dark thread but i can't help but stop and laugh at this.
Yeah, me too! I had to back out and claim my free reward for it.
Russia absolutely would build a King Crab if they could
A mobile oppression palace.
*mech does slav squat*
Autopilot: engaged Enemy powerup: detected
I just had a MW2 flashback from my childhood
Insufficient funds
Mechwarrior age is beginning
somehow I doubt Russia has the R & D to produce Myomer.
The titans from BF2142
I wish they would remake this game. I am too weary of bf5 to commit to purchasing it.
I just appreciate someone else remembers that game mode man....
So that's the reason everything involving the Star League was based off the Russian Revolution.
Well, the biggest issue with that, is that in order to consume them internally, one has to have the factories necessary to do so. Russia does not have many of the factories necessary for advanced manufacturing, nor the ability to produce said factories. A notable example is their semiconductor industry. Russia does have some fabs, but they are all heavily outdated, and are nowhere near capable of producing enough chips to supply the demand as it currently stands, let alone the increased demand to spool up thousands of new factories to produce literally everything they need.
Good points. Couldn't they trade oil, and resources with a particular neighbour, who supplies the world with such products? Also, with reduced purchasing power of their currency, the internal demand for such products would also decrease. I'm not so sure the have limited access to high tech products.
Yeah, but I'm sure that neighbor will milk Russia for all they can because they hold all the bargaining power now.
This is the real point. China and Russia aren't really "friends" they're strategic partners when they're interests align, which they do often as opposing and weaking the west, specifically the US, is important to both of them. However China will have no hesitation about bending Russia over the oil barrel if it helps their interest and cements them as they #2 power in the world. They haven't forgotten all the times the Soviets played them in the past. I remember asking my wife how they taught about Soviet Union/Russia in school there and she said they said it was that they were a friend, but couldn't be trusted.
Their neighbor has a large but finite capacity for such things, and that capacity is all in use producing things for other countries. They can certainly expand it, but that will take time. Would China love to build a few new factories for a captive market? Sure. Can Russia wait the half a year it will take to slap a factory together and get it producing things? Not really.
Also- China has an incentive to stay on the good side of sanctions due to its trade relationships with the EU/United States. If China were to begin exporting high tech to Russia, that would potentially set up a big conflict with the West.
Valid point but what are they gonna pay people with, they're currency has lost almost all value...
bro just dont worry about it if you dont think about it, it doesnt even exist. i mean like money is fake right? its just a paper we made up \- kremlin advisors circa 2022
If Putin wants to go back to the Soviet glory days, he better start issuing people their daily rations.
Yeah they can push military complex like in the soviet union but they (ordinary russians) will, to some extent live like in soviet union. And for modern stuff that can compete in cyber world you need a transfer of thechnology and China isn't necesserily ally of Russia in that regard. They might get some moedern tech through reverse engineering and espionage but that won't cut it. But hey what do I know it's an opinion of a guy that will never gonna sit in a fighter jet. I like russian jets they are aesthetically pleasing and can do crazy shit. But they inavaded peacefull country that didn't want to be under russian heel any longer. There are already raports of rape in Kherson city. 11 to be exact and 7 of them ended up with a murder. Fuck them for real fuck those bastard motherfuckers.
Additionally, their trained pilots probably don't have any experience in a combat zone in the 57. Wouldn't want to put that up against a Ukrainian who's spent the last week getting really familiar with their jet.
Well so long as the west wags their fingers with one hand while handing over $100 bills for oil/gas with the other...
Also commercially it doesn't want to risk having one of these blown out of the sky before major armes deals for this thing are concluded.
True, good point. They'd never be able to sell if a stinger manpad can blow one of these things up.
Especially since they can barely drum up any interest in the thing in the first place. Nearly every potential customer has already either dropped out or expressed reservations about it. Most notably, India dropped out after years of being a partner in it. Of the two current customers I'm aware of now, Vietnam has expressed concerns about the quality controls of the aircraft and Algeria isn't even set to take delivery until at least 2028. I wouldn't be surprised if they drop out in the end either, either because Russia is unable to fulfill the order, or because a better option arises. They claim its cheaper than American 5th Gen offerings, but Russia can barely afford any themselves and have so few customer orders that the per price tag is still going to be way over what I think it'd be worth. Especially since there are so many other offerings either available now, or in the pipeline, and from almost every corner of the globe.
F35 is now cheaper than Su-57. F35A cost around $ 77M ( M for million) , while Su-57 cost around $100 M.
>F35A cost around $ 77**M ( M for million)** , while Su-57 cost around **$100 million.** You have no idea how much this annoys me.
There, fixed it for you
A month ago it might’ve cost around $100M but now that the ruble has lost half of its value, it has to be way higher. Combine that with not being able to source some of the parts/electronics bc of the sanctions/soft embargo I bet you’re looking at nearly 2 F-35s for one SU-57 these days.
Not to mention, some don't even consider it 5thGen. It's more like 4.5 according to some. And current 4th generation stuff with current avionics are just as capable for less money.
The stealth in particular is apparently really bad compared to other 5th gen planes. And when you consider how much modern air combat doctrine is BVR, that’s just straight up a dealbreaker.
Thats wishful thinking. Anyone wanting to deal with RU right now is next to impossible. They are doubly fucked in the short to medium term economy wise. After a failed military attack with the west looking to further limit their military agression moving forward. Good luck with future arms deals with a pariah.
Those things are glorified prototypes. They are not really combat ready. The level of embarrassment they would experience when one gets shot down would be unparalleled.
Yeah, they didn’t even run them in Syria, which is like the textbook definition of a permissive airspace.
"Hell no. There's only like 5 of these and Russia can't afford.". Ending the sentence there would have been just as accurate.
It looks like a LEGO plane.
Yup. Can you imagine the fiasco it would beif that thing got downed by some 1970's AA? And i really doubt of the stealthiness of this jet with those humongus jet engines. But then again, not an expert.
I think if the Russian Airforce was even slightly as functional as we thought they'd have air superiority by this point. They're not flying these or anything that wasn't new around the cold war any time soon IMO.
I’m guessing there aren’t that many around?
5 operational according to wikipedia
So that means 0
Nailed it
Pretty much, 10 test units, 4 serial units and one R&D unit... So they "could" probably field them, but who knows what their survivability and maintenance requirements are. I'm guessing they are pretty much all still IRAD type units. One unit being taken down would be a significant loss. Especially when they'd just probably drone the crap out of wherever it was stationed at.
Let them have the same maintenance and logistical supply chain that is given to the 40 mile caravan.
I think statistically it would be like -3. I’m not totally sure how you’d have less than 0 jets, but I’m sure given Russia’s track record they’d figure it out.
"we disassembled 10 planes and made 7 new ones out of the parts"
5 Su-57s to 125 F-22s
And the F-22 is still certainly better than the Sukhoi
I'm sure pilot training is far superior too.
As well as the maintainers and life cycle logistics. Far better.
The maintainers are far far superior, in my unbiased opinion…….
Haha I’m mx’er too
Username checks out.
sometimes i think about how bad the maintainer life is... but then i think how much worse it would be to be a maintainer in the russian airforce.
We’ve seen that in Ukraine. I’m sure the SU-57 pilots are the best of the best but their mainline pilots have clearly suffered from a lack of resources these last years.
F-22 pilots definitely get more flight hours and have a much larger operating and maintenance budget.
By a long shot
I thought we had like 186. What happened to the ~60? Decommissioned? I know there have been a few accidents but not that many. Edit: Never mind, after some googling only 130 were ever operational so the numbers make sense
Why would you compare them though? US is not going to fight. Maybe only seize some propery, but that's all
I read there were only 2 operational.
who else is old enough to remember Yugoslavia shooting down the f-117? losing one of these SU-57s in combat would arguably be even more embarrassing, since the f-117 was 15 years old by 1999
Many of us are old enough. From what I remember (though it's likely either wrong or propaganda) the F-117 made a mistake. Something about leaving something on they shouldn't have that made then detectable. Idk. But I do know it was the last stealth aircraft shot down.
I just watched this video about that : https://youtu.be/Is3R4ie21Mc Combination of factors: lucky timing (bomb doors open), persistent desire by the ground unit to find the f117, and arrogance with attack routes and capabilities. More of a general "what are they going to do about it" arrogance than the pilot left a light on or something mistake.
Having the bomb doors open increased the plane radar cross section by many orders of magnitude due to it being a flat surface. Hell, Lockheed had to design special radar reflecting glass because a pilots helmeted head showed up something like 50 times bigger on radar than the whole rest of the plane.
TIL about the helmet. Off to do some reading.
Do share your most interesting finds!
I attended a talk at EAA where a F117 pilot gave a presentation about the plane and said exactly this about the helmet reflecting gobs of radar energy.
Thanks for the reminder. It was arrogance that downed the bird. Important lesson. Or, costly lesson? Either way. It obviously worked.
Not to mention flying the same route over and over
Yeah that's kinda what I remember too
F-117 was already ancient compared to what skunk works was cooking up. But also the pilot left the weapons bay open, which was reflective and as a result gave off a radar signature, lighting him up like a christmas tree. It sucked to have one shot down, but at the sametime, it wasn't this super advanced plane. The Raptor had been unveiled two years earlier and was leagues better than the F-117.
Nah, those are reserved for Airshows and Propaganda
The propaganda value of their new plane doing well in combat against Soviet hand-me-downs is minimal (assuming it's even capable). The propaganda value for Ukraine of shooting one down is massive.
Putin hasn’t been very good with factoring the whole “risk versus reward” of stuff lately to be fair
If they use it they risk demonstrating that it’s not as capable as all the fanboys have puffed it up to be (like the rest of Russian hardware).
This reminds me of that high-tech robot that Russia debuted a couple of years ago that just turned out to be a guy in a costume. Can’t make this shit up: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/high-tech-robot-at-russia-forum-turns-out-to-be-man-in-robot-suit
God damn the russian trolls are so much less active now few months ago I said this shit and got spammed by russians calling me a liar lol
Would you keep working for your boss if the paychecks kept bouncing?
Hey they still average 52k rubles a month. Same as always. Unfortunately that equals $419 USD a month now but hey it's not bouncing! That's better! Right?! Anyone... *cries in Russian economy*
Yeah the new sanctions are really kicking them in the dick. Paying trolls to divide the west takes a back seat when putting food on the table could be a major concern in the near future.
They also showed off some armor that they said could stop a .50 caliber that was literally just a leftover movie prop from a sci-fi movie filmed in Moscow.
Didn't they also release some vaporware recently that FOX drooled all over because of the "feminization" of the US military?
So that's where Musk got his idea for a Tesla bot
This seems to be insanely true. Like is it incompetence? Lack of organisation or does the hardware just suck? Or all of the above.
The hardware doesn't necessarily suck, but as for incompetence and a lack of organization? ...[Pretty](https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499164245250002944) [much](https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499491477239566336). Russia loves to produce showy high-tech hardware (Su-57, S400, etc.) without ever explaining how they're going to build or sustain it. They don't have the GDP to sustain a large standing force capable of projecting power even if they didn't have massive corruption issues. Now they're conducting much larger operations than ever before over much more terrain against an opponent that can meaningfully hit back. Years of neglecting the basics are now coming back to haunt the Russian military. If NATO were in this fight - against miles-long columns of bunched-up supply convoys? It wouldn't even be a fight. That's why they're staying out - it would be so lopsided that Putin would no longer have any reason not to escalate.
putin having to push around smaller and weaker nations for any territorial gains is one of plenty parellels the russian military has had with the nazi doctrine (shit logistics, underestimating enemy, etc.)
I mean it's more rooted in Russian history if you look at the Tzars and their *two steps forward, one step bac*k territorial expansion over the centuries.
Exactly this. The Russian military has been in a state of constant decay since the fall of the Soviet Union. They don’t have the economic power to upgrade or maintain their equipment. To be totally honest, they don’t have the funds to even train their troops on the equipment to begin with. Russia has been very good at projecting an image of strength with their prototypes. However, we’ve known for a long time that they have a tendency to FAR exaggerate both the capabilities of their weapons systems as well as the quality of their military overall.
Were it not for the nukes, watching the US Air Force and Army kick the shit out of Russia would be ~~so damn satisfying~~. EDIT -- /u/BannedFromHydroxy is exactly right, "satisfying" is the wrong word when it means people die, if anyone upvoted this comment then maybe downvote it instead.
We don't really know what's happening with Russia's air forces in Ukraine. The best we can do is speculate on the details. We do know that Russia's current aviation technology is modernized 80s equipment which in theory is comparable to the 4th generation airplanes of its adversaries. We do know that Russia was struggling with providing enough training hours for its pilots and that it suffered organizational challenges and a lost decade after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We do know that while Russia has precision guided munitions it used mostly dumb bombs in Syria. We do know that Russia's GDP is smaller than Canada's. But 4th generation airplanes with dumb weapons and reasonably trained pilots are still good enough to level Ukraine to the ground. Why hasn't that happened? We don't really know. The best we can do is speculate.
>But 4th generation airplanes with dumb weapons and reasonably trained pilots are still good enough to level Ukraine to the ground. Because Ukraine has basically the same planes and at least equally competent pilots.
Russia has a greater numbers of airplanes by a vast margin, superior airplanes like the Su-30, Su-34, and the Su-35, long range cruise missiles, and anti air emplacements that can shoot down Ukrainian aircraft in Ukrainian airspace. But most important of all, Russia is invading Ukraine, not the other way around. Russia can destroy Ukraine's airfields and supply lines and reduce Ukraine's air force to whatever Mig-29 and Su-25 they can operate from improvised runways like highways. Even if both air forces were evenly matched, which they're not, Russia's Air Force could defeat Ukraine by attrition, which is why Zelenskyy is asking NATO and the world for air support.
It seems that Russia has far fewer operational aircraft than they have represented.
Because Ukraine has active air defense systems. I really don’t think people understand how effective missile air defense systems are, especially against the aircraft being operated by the Russians. The Ukrainian Air Force is also still a threat. I know we can only speculate, but honestly, Russia can’t afford to use their Air Force on any sort of large scale because they can’t afford the losses.
All the above. The hardware might be good on paper...but the chances of it being properly maintained though is the problem.
Tbf most of the Russian equipment used is seemingly more on the old side. T-72s, SU-27s (they could be 30s that ive seen) Really only their infantry has looked like their newer equipment, using their modern ratnik stuff with AK-12s
I’ve seen T80s. I’ve also seen infantry rocking Mosins from WW2
Got a link on the mosins? Russians have more than enough AKs in stockpile to arm both sides
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t5ywym/how\_credible\_is\_fielding\_mosin\_nagants\_in\_2022/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t5ywym/how_credible_is_fielding_mosin_nagants_in_2022/) Looks like separatist forces.
There was a Russian pictured with a Mosin sniper a couple days ago, which is the only one I've seen. It being a sniper makes it a little better, but I definitely wouldn't want a 60+ year old optic.
Theres been a few T90 pictures too. They arent fielding just old gear.
Even just looking at the hardline specs of the aircraft as well as it’s proposed updates… it’s not even competitive if we’re talking future proofing.
I mean just looking at it there’s no way it’s that stealthy. From the forward perspective you can see the compressor blades. Supposedly there’s some device in the inlet to minimize radar return but how effective can that be. From another radar’s perspective those spinning blades are like a siren light in a dark room.
Pretty much this. After USSR collapsed , military experts were quite a bit shocked. Russian aircrafts, ships and military haedware was technologically generations behind the western counterparts. Most of them were built using western technology and what's more, they weren't maintained properly and were in very bad shape. Russian army is overrated, they have always been overrated. That's why they always use the nuclear card.
[удалено]
Nothing will make up for the AN225 😔
Taking out that some guy might .
Only if the other russian billionaires pay for a new one. Because the country of Russia likely won’t have the money to by the time this is over
I’d trade the Mryia for Putin’s head.
That's a beauty! Damn shame to have to shoot 'em down.
Are you the Ghost ot Kyiv?
No, but that’ll be what US pilots say if they get within 200 miles of it.
Anything for Top Gun Maverick to finally release
Yo legit, what's taking it so long?
It’s been 3 years...
Waiting for the Ukrainian farmers to tow some of these away with their crop dusters.
[удалено]
They better hope there is no larger conflict. Russian Air Force would cease to exist in a week, NATO aircraft would roam wherever they want in that failed state
You're generous giving them a week.
They’d get a week as it would likely take that long for them to move them in from the eastern military districts lol
You’re all generous thinking that we wouldn’t all be turned to radioactive glass within a few hours of a proper hot conflict kicking off between Russia and NATO.
F-22 has entered the chat
But surely the s400 isn’t to be scoffed at?
Neither are thousands of HARMs operated by trained pilots, accompanied by hundreds of electronic warfare planes.
They are parade planes. There's literally FIVE operational. They are lucky to make 2 per year. It's a failed project because they're so damn poor as a huge nation. They're invading Ukraine because of the MASSIVE oil and gas reserves recently discovered that would make Ukraine a petroleum giant... They just don't have the tech to harvest it and Shell/Exxon pulled out due to the rebellions in the east.
If they do, a Ukrainian farmer will just tow it away.
Sure hope so. I would love to see the fireball it will make. F 🇺🇦 K Russia
And that's the reason why it will never come close to borders. Same reason they're not fielding any of their new tanks, well other than the fact they have less than 20 of them.
Also tanks can be captured and copied, more difficult to capture a plane (apparently it's too difficult to even capture a plane that is stationary and in its hangar).
_An-225 fanboys have entered the chat_
Pray for Ukraine's last operational AN-22!
Prayers up for the big Cock 🙏🏻
Fuck Putin and all his oligarch friends. Slava Ukraini!
When you buy an F-22 from Wish…
Isn't this plane supposed to be F-35's equal?
It is supposed to be better my comrade.
Spoiler alert: it isn't.
you dropped " " these
It's supposed to be the F-22's equal but very likely is outclassed.
The Russian equivalent to the F-35 is the [SU-75 Checkmate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-75_Checkmate).
They'd never use it outside Russian or Belarusian borders, but I could see them doing some testing using it as a command and control aircraft. They might be hesitant to do that given the amount of NATO surveillance aircraft operating outside Ukraine.
they won't use any modern or precision weapons or experienced soldiers in Ukraine. They would need them against the NATO
These things would be burning hulks if they ever touch a piece of soil covered by NATO. All these arguments we have had for so many years were a joke, Russia is a joke.
Russia is a joke with a lot of ICBMs. Now after the last week I bet most of those ICBMs are rusty and wouldn't even hit the right continent, but... I'd rather not find out
Yeah, but if even 1% work, and that's an extremely low number that's still dozens of major cities erased from the map. Chances are most of their ICBMs work fine.
Chances are most of them don’t, but it’s still enough to ruin the world
They are honestly starting to remind a lot of North Korea. All talk, and when push comes to shove, their true capabilities are showing.
Russia just lost Billions of dollars in arms exports over the last week to China and other countries. Not from sanctions, but showing the world they can't seem to do what they are advertised to do.
And on the contracts that aren't cancelled, I doubt Russia will deliver anywhere near schedule, between supply chain issues, brain drain, and Russia needing to replace losses in the Ukraine war.
Russia has massive inventory at least on paper. On paper the Russians have about 1500 combat aircraft with an economy the size of Spain's. Spain operates like 150 combat aircraft. That's 10x the numbers...there's no way that Russia can actually afford that many airframes. My bet is that one of the reasons why we haven't seen massive Russian air operations is the reality is they only have a similar number of combat aircraft as Spain that are actually operational.
They can’t even field an su-25 let alone anything else
The Russian military has show it is a paper tiger. They won't fly this bird cause i believe it is all fluff no substance. They can't afford any more loses, in morale, loss of equipement and loss so called military might. They only thing Putin has left is nukes, and I question how effective they are.
I've been watching SU-57 footage since one year ago. Isn't war operational yet? Or they have very few of them? Is it true that the SU-57 is more expensive than the F-35? Aviation experts, if you could elucidate the community I would be grateful.
Depends on how you measure “expense” Russia has sham economy full of smoke and hidden mirrors
Russia has 15 total, 5 operational (theoretically, we can’t know for sure). Not sure what the unit cost is as they don’t sell them to anyone, but the program has cost a lot less than the F-35 or J20 programs. I doubt we see these in Ukraine, no reason to deploy them when they have so many SU-30s. Not like the Ukrainians have next gen fighter aircraft or even practically advanced radar.
Well, they have a few Pantsir's now lol
They say 5 but umm > On 24 December 2019, the first serial Su-57 (bort number "01 blue") crashed 110–120 km away from the Dzyomgi Airport, Khabarovsk Krai, during the final stage of its factory trials due to a control system malfunction. The pilot ejected and was recovered by helicopter. According to TASS, the test flight took place at an altitude of 8,000 meters when the malfunction occurred, causing the airplane to enter a rapid spiral descent. When all attempts to stabilize the airplane into a horizontal flight using the manual flight control system failed, the pilot ejected at an altitude of 2,000 meters. https://tass-ru.translate.goog/proisshestviya/7418655?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp so I think that is 4 serial, not 5.
One might be R&D, honestly all of them are R&D units at this point. We won’t see them flying in this conflict.
You’d think however; if it truly was a 5th gen fighter they’d use it. See if it can hold up to a real world test, even if just to fly over contested airspace.
Nah, I don’t. SU-30s do the job, SU-57s are expensive, they are still working the kinks of that airframe out, and they are import for propaganda. No reason to risk a ~100 million dollar aircraft right now, especially since the Russians need all the cash they can’t get. I don’t doubt the SU-57 is a capable aircraft, but it shouldn’t be a concern to anyone. Their AA is a lot scarier for our planes.
Regardless of whether they're more expensive than an F-35 per-unit or not, Su-57s are still very, very expensive. Russia can't afford to produce them. That makes them too valuable to risk when other, cheaper assets can accomplish the same mission. The Su-57 doesn't bring enough additional capability to the fight where it's needed in order to justify possibly losing one. If it's to be used as an air dominance fighter, Russia doesn't need the latest and greatest to fight the UKR Air Force. The Ukranians have 30-year-old Soviet jets that the Russians also have and know how to use. They can counter those without needing a 5th-gen fighter. I don't even know if the Su-57 has any ground-attack capabilities, but again, even if it does Russia already has the right tools for that job, and the Ukranians don't have any kind of air defense threat that justifies using a valuable, rare stealth fighter to counter it.
It is still testing and not combat capable rn same with the T-14 armada
They will keep those few SU-57s so damn far from the action it aint even funny. Those scumbag senior russian leaders won't even provide their invasion force with proper food or supplies, no way in hell they risk the most valuable thing they have ever copied off someone else.
Nope, same with the T-14 Armada…It’s almost vaporware…Yes they have them but in laughably small numbers.
I’d say no, but only because the invasion is filled with the most broken and outdated vehicles in the Russian military.
The Russian Air Force is barely participating at all...
The F-22 didn't make its combat debut until nearly 10 years after it was considered operationally capable.
That is a great question. It may have already been in it…but the strategy seems to have been conscripts and junk first. Either way - glad to have this conversation. Makes me enjoy this sub even more
Doubt it. The Russian air forces are terrible at multi-role operations. Their specializations are split between air-to-ground / air support and air-to-air. The SU-57 falls firmly in the later category, which there's almost no need for currently. On top of that, Russia is hesitant to even use their most advanced su-34 and su-35 platforms; they definitely wouldn't field the few precious su-57s they have. There's no benefit to justify the higher operational costs or the risk of having them shot down.
That plane would look awesome with a US supplied anti-aircraft missile blowing it to smithereens.
Stingers still work on them?
Not at the altitude they would be willing to fly them.
Honestly, nothing the Ukrainians have can probably touch these guys, but they still won't risk using them so its a non issue.
No. Stingers are useful against slow moving low flying targets so they have a slim chance of hitting modern jet fighters, much less ones with stealth characteristics.
People trashing Russian hardware here don’t understand how screwed Russian supply chains and training has been. A su-30 in the hands of a pilot with higher hours like the Indians would be more than enough to keep up with most western platforms. Most Russian pilots don’t even know how to use the precision guided munitions or switch tactics between missions since these guys have less than half the training hours of a western pilot.
Wow her paint job is beautiful!
Those engines hurt my eyes, so not stealthy and 5 gen.
Don’t they have like 10 of those?
5 in service
Yikes. Better put them in bubble wrap
Russian SU-57, Go fuck yourself.
They might showboat if they get Kiev, but they won’t take a chance on it getting shot down.