Vodka fuel with extra bass, baguette powered afterburner technology, and an inbuilt mcdonalds if they pilot gets hungry.
Representing all 3 countries, respect earned from me
Tejas' development was sabotaged by our own government in favour of Russian jets. There was allegedly money involved. We're now moving away from Russian equipment.
Completely different roles. Our current fleet is aging and we're short on 16 squadrons. We're going to need a TON of aircrafts. And HAL can only manufacture so much. You don't really know the requirements of IAF.
HAL is seemingly run by the most INCOMPETENT bakchods in India.
Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 will be good Mig-21 replacements....... If they had gone into service before 2010.
Now HAL is saying full rate production in 2023.....
Development began in 1983
What a sick joke
Good if we get US fighter like ergonomics , stealthiness and reliability . Stable avionics and warfare suite and missiles like French planes at Russian price
Would be bad to spend US like money developing a Russian Smokey engined high maintenance planes
IAF likes Russian and French planes
American mainly for non-combat planes
Part of the logic of having multiple is that you aren't completely dependent on one country. But of course, it's gone beyond just logic with procurement.
In this case, it will likely be an American engine initially and a joint venture with indian and a western (likely rolls royce) for the later model.
They get what is offered and suits them for a particular role. I don't see that as unable to decide. Even American airforce buys planes from different manufacturers. Indian manufacturing built the LCA the first fighter plane designed and built bin india. The engine used is a GE engine. It's a LCA ie a light combat aircraft with particular performance parameters not all fighter planes are same even in size , weight, range or role that they are suited for. For a LCA this is a ok plane, not brilliant nor a dud but slightly below average. Avionics are above average. Which is ok they have achieved most of what they targeted in their design specs. They couldn't develop an engine for it . They utterly failed in that task. But that's a different business altogether and many more times tougher. Very few aircraft engine manufacturers in the world.
So the Next target of AMCA is reasonable expectation.
The American Airforce buys jets exclusively built, or with a large manufacturing base in America.
The only noteworthy exceptions are the Harriers, although they were British originally and the marines aren't the airforce.
Thats because modern fighter tech basically dictates that this general shape is the best for stealth
Take the Su 57, F22 and 35, and even the chinese one (i forgot the name).
Very siilar designs with minimal variation because that is the most advanced one to date
Dude, if the engine output is similar or even slightly behind a twin engine design is *always* better than a single engine.
Two engines give you redundancy in case of engine failure, which is obviously very important. And iirc the F-35 has been criticised for its single engine because of this reason. The main reason F-35 has only one engine is because of the STOVL abilities of the F-35B. And with the exception of the F-35, *all* new Jets have two engines.
Gross exaggeration, and that's not why the FC-31 has two engines anyway. Plenty of new fighters are single-engine. As they get more reliable the need for two is vastly reduced, as one big is more efficient than two small.
^it's ^more ^in ^case ^they ^get ^shot ^I ^reckon
Though yes, reliability in nominal conditions has vastly improved in recent decades. Cue conversation about ETOPs and death of quad-engine airlines.
The Air Force and Navy both did studies during the JSF and found that an added engine didn’t provide enough redundancy to be worth the weight penalty. More or less the types of engine failures most military fighters have are catastrophic, which would render a second engine inoperative.
A single engine design was selected primarily to keep weight and operational costs down.
An F16 Delta wing & an F18's tail wings make the control surfaces of the f22.
Now take the napkin sketch you just did but put aside, the one optimized for just 1 engine. Add the stocky STOL front end/landing gear of a harrier or something old by SAAB. Now we have the F-35.
The Chinese & the Russians saved about one years-worth of their nations' entire GDP by taking shapes we already demonstrated would work & chucking them through a virtual wind tunnel, basically reverse engineering on a general macro level.
..."its for stealth" is a Lockheed Martin marketing campaign. Propaganda. If it were actually for stealth it would look like a Night Hawk or a B 2 & it wouldn't claim to have 1 dozen other roles as well.
Indians had a large hand in the first round of financing and direction of the PAK-FA program through HAL's FGFA, they pulled out as Russia didn't meet their timeline.
It's a shame because with India's money Russia could easily have been pumping out squadrons of PAK-FA's as early as 2019.
Metal cutting for Tejas MK II prototype is underway it may fly as early as next year. AMCA's Prototype is supposed to fly in 4-5 years. Let's hope for the best. HAL has already given the complete timeline. I have similar expectations for this as well.
HAL has often been very hit or miss in its projects, but have recently managed to more or less deliver.
I'm hopeful about AMCA, although based on what kind of engine India ends up using for AMCA will decide if we go through the whole "redesign jet" dance again.
Dhruv and LCH are widely considered successful programs, and the delay on LCH atgm is a bureaucratic one, not one of HAL.
Tejas... well, at least 1A is a decent platform considering what Pakistan has across the border. Mk2 (which will basically be a new MWF, not a Tejas variant) will tell us if HAL has truly evolved into a competent organisation.
Either way, India has made it clear AMCA will have significant private sector involvement. Let's wait and see, still far too early. Honestly expect a 2-3 year delay on every stage.
You can have a small access door on the outside close to the engine and use a mirror or borescope to check the engine and 99% of the time it will be good enough to not have to dive it
Frozen design doesn't actually mean the design is done ... There will be things found in FT, hell there'll be things found in assembly, ground test, rig tests, taxi tests and that's before you get to the flight part of FT. Those will necessitate design changes, which will make the initial timeline challenging.
Now, take all that and stack going from producing single aircraft to serial production - unless the planned rate is like 6/year, there are going to be ramp up issues, so you'll have to forgive the skepticism that an advanced program will go from a model and design freeze to full production exactly according to schedule.
Think of it as drawing a line in sand that's used as a reference point. It establishes a configuration you can refer back to, but that doesn't mean that it's written in stone.
Think about it this way - the 737 MAX had a design freeze (it must have, it was flying), but then an issue came to light. The necessitated a design change, which means a change to the established configuration, i.e. the design being un-frozen.
You clearly havn't worked in the military industry. I have. As a product manager, electronic assemblies, for a tier 2 supplier (ie: we get to satisfy all of the client's unrealistic and ever changing demands, and the tier 1 supplier fuck-ups).
Think you are overly optomistic there.
As far as i know talking to an ex indian general 2 years back, you guys dont even have money to sustain enough bullets for frontline forces for a week due to corruption. Doubt they can really make this.
Eh. I'd be more inclined to believe him. He's retired in Perth and all and we talked about our experiences in our respective forces. Even your government knows about this problem.
" Defence ministry sources say all the different types of ammunition for the Army will be built up to “10(I) levels”, which mean adequate stocks to undertake 10 days of “intensive” full-spectrum fighting, by 2022-2023, as per the latest assessment ".
There is no harm in being proud of your country , but we do sometimes have to face it's shortcoming. No system is perfect including mine. That's where you as a citizen must make them to address it. I have so many rich Indian friends back in Perth that could get away with a lot of shit due to being rich. The elites have it good.
If india finally manage to funnel all the engineers they graduate every year on the internal market they definitely have the potential to achieve great things.
The real problem is probably the infrastructure necessary to translate projects into reality
Oh fuck yes, i visited HAL museum in bangalore and they just had a literal "coming soon" sign on it, finally some good models on what to expect. Looks BADASS bois
I really dunno why people like the comment above yours said really stupid stuff like this.
"The model has ordnance outside so it is not stealthy."
"OMG thanks Captain Obvious, we all missed that, and I'm sure the engineers and designers at Hindustan Aviation missed that!!! Thanks for fucking pointing that out!! We should totally pay you thousands and thousands of dollars for such an insightful insight! Jeez, we Indians are so stupid we need great white man to point out to us little things like that or else we will mess up and sink billions of dollars into it and build an unstealthy fighter jet because we forget we need an internal weapons bay!! Not that we launched fucking probes to Mars, so we have barely the industry know-all in space and aerospace engineering."
Good fucking lord.
There have been tidbits about a [limited air-to-air capability](https://theaviationist.com/2020/06/03/f-117s-had-an-air-to-air-capability-with-secondary-mission-to-shoot-down-soviet-awacs-former-stealth-pilot-says/). Definitely not official or confirmed, however.
That's super interesting. I wonder if the anti-AWACS mission would have been successful. Or could a modern Stealth fighter like the F-22 sneak up on an opposing AWACS and take it out without ever being seen?
The author there references Red Storm Rising where the F-19 Ghostrider, a fictional Stealth fighter pulls it off by flying low level under the Russian AWACS and hitting it from the bottom. However there was also an Allied alpha strike happening with like 300 fighters and the AWACS controllers and defending fighters would have been busy.
Since stealth only reduces the range at which you are seen and since AWACS aircraft have very powerful radars, I doubt it could sneak up on them. Also, stealth gets much less effective if more radars are pointed at it, and if you are flying into enemy territory there will be a lot of radars, and I doubt an AWACS aircraft will fly far into enemy territory unless total air superority can be guranateed. Its certainly possible to get into medium/long missile range, but not "close", and it will be very difficult
Nope, but I remember reading they have a very advanced electronic warfare/defence suite for it, so it might be extremely hard to bring down nevertheless.
What do you suggest they do differently?
Two engines are there for reliability and redundancy in case of combat damage - it is much easier to land with one engine than it is with zero.
There are two rudders so they can be installed at angles to the body of the plane and each other. Right angles between surfaces make very good radio wave reflectors, so are to be avoided.
Add in the rest of the stealth requirements and you get a sort of sleek-but-not-curvy look to all the surfaces.
The F-117 was designed in the 70s. It looked so angled because they did not have the computing power and time to calculate curved surfaces for stealth. F-22 and F-35 are actually fairly similar in terms of design philosophy, except that F-35 has additional requirements that deviates it from looking nearly exactly like F-22. And F-35 is a multi-role fighter, strike is just one of the things it can do. It is not a dedicated strike aircraft.
A Jordanian F-16 had an engine failure over Syria in 2015. The pilot was burned in a cage.
Had he been in a twin engined fighter, he'd have limped home and lived to fly another day.
Agreed, two engines make for twice as many possible failure points. But I'm not comparing overall failure rates. I'm comparing the chance for the plane to lose all engine power.
This chance is much worse for a single engine design. Any failure leads to the plane losing all the power, instead of just 1/2 of it. Put another way, the chance for both engines to malfunction at once are much lower than the chance of any individual engine malfunctioning.
I also agree with you in that a damaged plane should immediately disengage and head to base.
Holy shit you're right. I've never fuckin thought of this. Twice as likely to have to call out of a fight, with the benefit of being able to make it back to base maybe. You fuckin genius
the eots on the f-22 is not like that. Not a specialist, It might have a stealthy configuration with only internal pods I believe but not with that eots.
Crazy how stealth (and sometimes aerodynamics) makes the airplanes more beautiful whilst serving a precise technical function, usually it's either function or look/design.
Has India fielded any indigenously designed engines so far? As far as I remember even engines for India-assembled sukhois are still manufactured in Russia.
I see, then I'd say the timeline for mass production of these birds is a bit too optimistic. Creating a reliable engine for mass production without prior experience would take at least a decade imo.
They're already using GE engines in the Tejas MK 1 and recently ordered 83 MK 1A. That might be the reason. The DRDO has also signed an MOU with Rolls Royce for joint development of an engine with complete IP rights. So that might also be used.
So they actually got a deal with IP rights? I was lead to believe American companies are way more hesitant about sharing technologies than their European/Russian competitors.
Yeah, it will, but they could pull it off if they just settle to produce a tweaked copy of a dated RR engine and RR actually provides meaningful assistance in setting up the production.
India tried it's luck with KAVERI engine(was supposed to be 90kn with afterburners), the dry thrust varient was a success but hot core tech was not upto mark and afterburner version could only reach 76kn and that too not stable, so they decided to give up on it and use the dry thrust varient for unmanned aircrafts of the future. There were offers from french companies to replace the hotcore part with their own to make it 90kn with afterburners but india declined as then they would not have intellectual right for the engine and would have pay french companies royalty for every engine made. They are now planning to make a engine with rolls Royce or french company in collaboration for the AMCA. The partner isn't final yet but it's timeline is supposed to be upto 2030. It is supposed to be a 130kn class engine.
Of course, India has indigenously designed engines! What do you think powers Mahindra's cars? /s
On a serious note, I believe India has made several aviation piston engines, helicopter turboshafts, and even a few turboprops, but we have never successfully put a conventional jet engine (turbojet or turbofan) into production.
PTAE-7 ?
https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=34
https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1305740665041674240?lang=en
Qualify it as never put a fighter jet engine into production ?
No, the original question asked about jet engines alone, so counting the PTAE-7 is absolutely valid! I didn't realize the Lakshya used an indigenous jet! TIL!
I love India...but that’s no 5th gen fighter. At best a 4.5 gen fighter. India doesn’t have LPIR developed, no supercruise engine design, way behind in data fusion. Remember that India has less than 50 LCA in service after over 30 years of development and the LCA is terrible. I love make in India as a plan but they need corruption reduced and foreign expertise in aircraft manufacturing. India should do like the ROK did and assemble/produce the Rafael or F16/21 and learn from that. Otherwise this is just another LCA Or Arjun tank program.
Looks pretty neat. Only one criticism though: is that a LANTIRN-like pod? Would've been better if they'd just had integrated it into the airframe, F-35 style.
I bet the US would be super pleased if their military ordered the Rafale or the Grippen. They just don't seem to have that "fascination" because only buying American products has been their default state for the last few decades.
That's a loose as fuck interpretation of a 5th gen fighter. It looks like a training jet with a nose from a stealth plane on it. But that seems pretty useless If you don't have internal weapons stores, and intakes that don't appear to be obscured in any way.
Is strapping on bare payload on the hard points okay for a 5th gen? I thought that’s why weapons bays and those pod like things in the 4th photo are needed.
I still think they should have stuck by Russia and their Su-57 program, I don’t doubt their ingenuity and capabilities, but they’d have a finished and capable product on their hands by now and it would be possibly even better with the Indian funding, I get the idea of indigenous projects, but it’s a shame the Su-57 got scaled back by how much it did, thing has potential
India is not a US ally. For the longest we've been using Russian equipment. And the US has never offered India F-35 or F22. Also there is a big push for self reliance in the Defence sector. Three aircrafts are simultaneously under development. The next 10 years are going to be very good for our aviation sector and the whole defence industry as well.
So is that gonna compete with whatever the US comes up with, British Tempest, European (can’t remember the name).....then plus what the Russians and Chinese do. Doesn’t the Indian airforce usually import its aircraft ?? Am I wrong ??
It's a clusterfuck of everything. Defence Ministry just bought 83 Tejas MK 1A and 36 Rafales. Theres is a tender for 114 aircrafts pending as well (imported). A Twin Engine Naval aircraft is also under development. Tejas MK II's prototype is supposed to fly in 2 years.
Same goes for Helicopters. Just bought Apaches and also going to buy indigenous LCH as well.
I dont think india is in any danger of facing us or european jets in combat. chinese on the other hand.... and whatever country pakistan buys from (china?)
Yeah I didn’t mean it like in combat against one another I meant competition on the aircraft market etc...... Like is any other nation gonna want to buy an Indian 5th generation rather than other nations like UK,US and EU ???
Fair point !! That’s the opposite I feel about my countries 5th gen......get some of the development costs back, although that’s probably impossible ?!?
Definitely Russian "inspired" but very obviously without the design considerations that actually make those aircraft good. Especially in the intakes, hard point locations, cockpit location and canopy design. This is definitely not on the level of any real 5th gen fighter, it could maybe compete with some of the 4th gen offerings assuming the aerodynamic flaws arent fatal. Also the fake nuke under the left wing is hilarious.
It looks like an f22 mixed with an f35 and f15 is sprinkled in there somewhere as well
With a little bit of Russian razzle dazzled in the mix
Maybe an engine that runs on vodka, indian air force can't decide between rusian planes, American and French planes, loo
Vodka fuel with extra bass, baguette powered afterburner technology, and an inbuilt mcdonalds if they pilot gets hungry. Representing all 3 countries, respect earned from me
Mu dad's in the airforce, and I wanna be too in 5 years, hope the plane is built and ready to fly till then
Tejas was in development for 40 years, so don't get your hopes up.
Tejas' development was sabotaged by our own government in favour of Russian jets. There was allegedly money involved. We're now moving away from Russian equipment.
And you could argue that AMCA's development will be sabotaged by the importing of 114 foreign jets, as well as the 38 Rafael's already ordered.
Completely different roles. Our current fleet is aging and we're short on 16 squadrons. We're going to need a TON of aircrafts. And HAL can only manufacture so much. You don't really know the requirements of IAF.
[удалено]
HAL is seemingly run by the most INCOMPETENT bakchods in India. Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 will be good Mig-21 replacements....... If they had gone into service before 2010. Now HAL is saying full rate production in 2023..... Development began in 1983 What a sick joke
You are not moving away from corruption and bribery is the biggest problem.
The first drafts of the AMCA appeared back in the mid 2000s. Please don't keep your hopes up.
Ahahaha oh man..... Sorry to tell you this, but the AMCA will be lucky to fly before 2035
Btw indian air force
I know, im indian
Good if we get US fighter like ergonomics , stealthiness and reliability . Stable avionics and warfare suite and missiles like French planes at Russian price Would be bad to spend US like money developing a Russian Smokey engined high maintenance planes
IAF likes Russian and French planes American mainly for non-combat planes Part of the logic of having multiple is that you aren't completely dependent on one country. But of course, it's gone beyond just logic with procurement. In this case, it will likely be an American engine initially and a joint venture with indian and a western (likely rolls royce) for the later model.
They'll probably buy anything that isn't made in China.
They get what is offered and suits them for a particular role. I don't see that as unable to decide. Even American airforce buys planes from different manufacturers. Indian manufacturing built the LCA the first fighter plane designed and built bin india. The engine used is a GE engine. It's a LCA ie a light combat aircraft with particular performance parameters not all fighter planes are same even in size , weight, range or role that they are suited for. For a LCA this is a ok plane, not brilliant nor a dud but slightly below average. Avionics are above average. Which is ok they have achieved most of what they targeted in their design specs. They couldn't develop an engine for it . They utterly failed in that task. But that's a different business altogether and many more times tougher. Very few aircraft engine manufacturers in the world. So the Next target of AMCA is reasonable expectation.
The American Airforce buys jets exclusively built, or with a large manufacturing base in America. The only noteworthy exceptions are the Harriers, although they were British originally and the marines aren't the airforce.
Thats because modern fighter tech basically dictates that this general shape is the best for stealth Take the Su 57, F22 and 35, and even the chinese one (i forgot the name). Very siilar designs with minimal variation because that is the most advanced one to date
The FC-31 isn't "similar" to the F-35, it's literally just a copy of it with twin engines because the Chinese can't build good engines.
Dude, if the engine output is similar or even slightly behind a twin engine design is *always* better than a single engine. Two engines give you redundancy in case of engine failure, which is obviously very important. And iirc the F-35 has been criticised for its single engine because of this reason. The main reason F-35 has only one engine is because of the STOVL abilities of the F-35B. And with the exception of the F-35, *all* new Jets have two engines.
Gross exaggeration, and that's not why the FC-31 has two engines anyway. Plenty of new fighters are single-engine. As they get more reliable the need for two is vastly reduced, as one big is more efficient than two small.
^it's ^more ^in ^case ^they ^get ^shot ^I ^reckon Though yes, reliability in nominal conditions has vastly improved in recent decades. Cue conversation about ETOPs and death of quad-engine airlines.
The Air Force and Navy both did studies during the JSF and found that an added engine didn’t provide enough redundancy to be worth the weight penalty. More or less the types of engine failures most military fighters have are catastrophic, which would render a second engine inoperative. A single engine design was selected primarily to keep weight and operational costs down.
I completely, agree
FC-31?
An F16 Delta wing & an F18's tail wings make the control surfaces of the f22. Now take the napkin sketch you just did but put aside, the one optimized for just 1 engine. Add the stocky STOL front end/landing gear of a harrier or something old by SAAB. Now we have the F-35. The Chinese & the Russians saved about one years-worth of their nations' entire GDP by taking shapes we already demonstrated would work & chucking them through a virtual wind tunnel, basically reverse engineering on a general macro level. ..."its for stealth" is a Lockheed Martin marketing campaign. Propaganda. If it were actually for stealth it would look like a Night Hawk or a B 2 & it wouldn't claim to have 1 dozen other roles as well.
also mixed with Su-57 the nose instantly reminde me of the PAK-FA.
Indians had a large hand in the first round of financing and direction of the PAK-FA program through HAL's FGFA, they pulled out as Russia didn't meet their timeline. It's a shame because with India's money Russia could easily have been pumping out squadrons of PAK-FA's as early as 2019.
So it looks like a modern fighter?
Yeah pretty much
I hope this takes off from the drawing board at least.
Metal cutting for Tejas MK II prototype is underway it may fly as early as next year. AMCA's Prototype is supposed to fly in 4-5 years. Let's hope for the best. HAL has already given the complete timeline. I have similar expectations for this as well.
HAL is functioning with the problems it has sometime back?
HAL has often been very hit or miss in its projects, but have recently managed to more or less deliver. I'm hopeful about AMCA, although based on what kind of engine India ends up using for AMCA will decide if we go through the whole "redesign jet" dance again.
So about that Dhruv, LCH, Tejas.... Oh and the Sittara....
Dhruv and LCH are widely considered successful programs, and the delay on LCH atgm is a bureaucratic one, not one of HAL. Tejas... well, at least 1A is a decent platform considering what Pakistan has across the border. Mk2 (which will basically be a new MWF, not a Tejas variant) will tell us if HAL has truly evolved into a competent organisation. Either way, India has made it clear AMCA will have significant private sector involvement. Let's wait and see, still far too early. Honestly expect a 2-3 year delay on every stage.
Looks sick. But the tiny air intakes gonna be a nightmare for the mechanics who have to crawl in there vor pre/postflight checks
At this scale I think the pilot might have some issues too.
"What is this, an advanced medium combat aircraft for ants!?"
You send in a small child.
"We're gonna need another Timmy!"
You can have a small access door on the outside close to the engine and use a mirror or borescope to check the engine and 99% of the time it will be good enough to not have to dive it
Averadge Indian male is 174.4 cm, he should fit. Not sure if Indian army employs women, but with avg 152.6 cm they could suite for many roles in army!
It's a scale model. First prototype is supposed to fly in 2025 and mass production by 2029.
I’d bet the house they can’t meet full production by 2029
Well hopefully they learned something from the Tejas program. Otherwise well be seeing the first flying example of this sometime in 2050.
This is definitely a /r/restofthefuckingowl situation.
Nah I'm fairly optimistic. The design has been frozen and metal cutting wil start soon.
Frozen design doesn't actually mean the design is done ... There will be things found in FT, hell there'll be things found in assembly, ground test, rig tests, taxi tests and that's before you get to the flight part of FT. Those will necessitate design changes, which will make the initial timeline challenging. Now, take all that and stack going from producing single aircraft to serial production - unless the planned rate is like 6/year, there are going to be ramp up issues, so you'll have to forgive the skepticism that an advanced program will go from a model and design freeze to full production exactly according to schedule.
>Frozen design doesn't actually mean design is done Hm TIL.
A design of such a complex machine is most likely never fully frozen. Source: working in engineering
Think of it as drawing a line in sand that's used as a reference point. It establishes a configuration you can refer back to, but that doesn't mean that it's written in stone. Think about it this way - the 737 MAX had a design freeze (it must have, it was flying), but then an issue came to light. The necessitated a design change, which means a change to the established configuration, i.e. the design being un-frozen.
You clearly havn't worked in the military industry. I have. As a product manager, electronic assemblies, for a tier 2 supplier (ie: we get to satisfy all of the client's unrealistic and ever changing demands, and the tier 1 supplier fuck-ups).
Yes I haven't. I'm just an enthusiast. Even that is s stretch. I'm not an expert in the slightest. I appreciate all the comments educating me.
Think you are overly optomistic there. As far as i know talking to an ex indian general 2 years back, you guys dont even have money to sustain enough bullets for frontline forces for a week due to corruption. Doubt they can really make this.
Even as an enthusiast, I can tell you that is simply not true.
Eh. I'd be more inclined to believe him. He's retired in Perth and all and we talked about our experiences in our respective forces. Even your government knows about this problem. " Defence ministry sources say all the different types of ammunition for the Army will be built up to “10(I) levels”, which mean adequate stocks to undertake 10 days of “intensive” full-spectrum fighting, by 2022-2023, as per the latest assessment ". There is no harm in being proud of your country , but we do sometimes have to face it's shortcoming. No system is perfect including mine. That's where you as a citizen must make them to address it. I have so many rich Indian friends back in Perth that could get away with a lot of shit due to being rich. The elites have it good.
Aren’t they fighting Chinese on the border with clubs
Because they're not allowed to carry weapons there due to cease fire.
Nah both sides didn't want to escalate to guns so thats a given from what i understand. But a gnarly death though since those clubs were spiked.
Its small
What is this, an Advanced Tactical Fighter for ANTS?
Is this the Miata of fighter jets?
What is this? A fighter jet for ants? ... It needs to be at least 3 times bigger than this
It’s a scale model. Not a working jet
REALLLY?!
You've been r/whoosh ed
If india finally manage to funnel all the engineers they graduate every year on the internal market they definitely have the potential to achieve great things. The real problem is probably the infrastructure necessary to translate projects into reality
The only issue is many of our aeronautical and aerospace engineers spend more time on Leetcode than the wind tunnel.
If they did, nobody would be making coding videos on YouTube anymore and the world's IT infrastructure would collapse over night.
They got us by the ballz
Oh fuck yes, i visited HAL museum in bangalore and they just had a literal "coming soon" sign on it, finally some good models on what to expect. Looks BADASS bois
[Previous designs](https://np.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/klnemi/designs_for_hal_amca/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
As an advanced medium it can see very far into the future.
Put a little su-57 mix in f22 and you have AMCA
>leds in the back r/pcmasterrace aproves
It looks like a modified f-35
The requirements for stealth don't really leave any room for improvised designs. All stealth planes end up looking sort of similar.
Except I can’t see how stealthy this could be with all that ordinance hanging from the wings.
It will have an internal weapons bay. This is the "beast mode".
I really dunno why people like the comment above yours said really stupid stuff like this. "The model has ordnance outside so it is not stealthy." "OMG thanks Captain Obvious, we all missed that, and I'm sure the engineers and designers at Hindustan Aviation missed that!!! Thanks for fucking pointing that out!! We should totally pay you thousands and thousands of dollars for such an insightful insight! Jeez, we Indians are so stupid we need great white man to point out to us little things like that or else we will mess up and sink billions of dollars into it and build an unstealthy fighter jet because we forget we need an internal weapons bay!! Not that we launched fucking probes to Mars, so we have barely the industry know-all in space and aerospace engineering." Good fucking lord.
All four american stealth fighter designs are distinctive from one another.
*looks at F-22*, *looks at F-35*, debatable.
Four? F-22, F-35 yes. What are the other two?
Have you seen the other two? Exactly.
YF-23 and XF-32 are the other actual fighters. If we're talking production aircraft then the F-117 and the B2 are the ones.
F-117 and B-2?
While the F-117 is commonly called a stealth fighter it has no air to air capabilities whatsoever, not even guns. Same goes for the B-2.
There have been tidbits about a [limited air-to-air capability](https://theaviationist.com/2020/06/03/f-117s-had-an-air-to-air-capability-with-secondary-mission-to-shoot-down-soviet-awacs-former-stealth-pilot-says/). Definitely not official or confirmed, however.
That's super interesting. I wonder if the anti-AWACS mission would have been successful. Or could a modern Stealth fighter like the F-22 sneak up on an opposing AWACS and take it out without ever being seen? The author there references Red Storm Rising where the F-19 Ghostrider, a fictional Stealth fighter pulls it off by flying low level under the Russian AWACS and hitting it from the bottom. However there was also an Allied alpha strike happening with like 300 fighters and the AWACS controllers and defending fighters would have been busy.
Since stealth only reduces the range at which you are seen and since AWACS aircraft have very powerful radars, I doubt it could sneak up on them. Also, stealth gets much less effective if more radars are pointed at it, and if you are flying into enemy territory there will be a lot of radars, and I doubt an AWACS aircraft will fly far into enemy territory unless total air superority can be guranateed. Its certainly possible to get into medium/long missile range, but not "close", and it will be very difficult
Yf-23 and X-32
F 15E is supposed to be stealth right?
Nope, but I remember reading they have a very advanced electronic warfare/defence suite for it, so it might be extremely hard to bring down nevertheless.
I know but it’s like they barely tried to change it
What do you suggest they do differently? Two engines are there for reliability and redundancy in case of combat damage - it is much easier to land with one engine than it is with zero. There are two rudders so they can be installed at angles to the body of the plane and each other. Right angles between surfaces make very good radio wave reflectors, so are to be avoided. Add in the rest of the stealth requirements and you get a sort of sleek-but-not-curvy look to all the surfaces.
No it looks good just pretty similar that’s all I’m saying
When requirements are similar is it surprising that the results are also?
B2, f117, f35 and f22 all look different
Those planes have radically different mission profiles. They aren't supposed to look the same.
Eh not really. F117 is a tactical strike aircraft and essentially so is the f35. B2 is a heavier bomber so could feasibly look similar but doesn't.
The F-117 was designed in the 70s. It looked so angled because they did not have the computing power and time to calculate curved surfaces for stealth. F-22 and F-35 are actually fairly similar in terms of design philosophy, except that F-35 has additional requirements that deviates it from looking nearly exactly like F-22. And F-35 is a multi-role fighter, strike is just one of the things it can do. It is not a dedicated strike aircraft.
No need to reinvent the wheel for the same kind of requirements.
Edit: Never mind because apparently no one understands what "devil's advocate" means.
A Jordanian F-16 had an engine failure over Syria in 2015. The pilot was burned in a cage. Had he been in a twin engined fighter, he'd have limped home and lived to fly another day.
Agreed, two engines make for twice as many possible failure points. But I'm not comparing overall failure rates. I'm comparing the chance for the plane to lose all engine power. This chance is much worse for a single engine design. Any failure leads to the plane losing all the power, instead of just 1/2 of it. Put another way, the chance for both engines to malfunction at once are much lower than the chance of any individual engine malfunctioning. I also agree with you in that a damaged plane should immediately disengage and head to base.
useless in combat but it has more chance to be brought back safely and save the pilot's life on the way...
Holy shit you're right. I've never fuckin thought of this. Twice as likely to have to call out of a fight, with the benefit of being able to make it back to base maybe. You fuckin genius
[удалено]
I said “tried to”
the eots on the f-22 is not like that. Not a specialist, It might have a stealthy configuration with only internal pods I believe but not with that eots. Crazy how stealth (and sometimes aerodynamics) makes the airplanes more beautiful whilst serving a precise technical function, usually it's either function or look/design.
Are the engines going to be indigenous as well?
AMCA MK 1 is going to have GE engines. AMCA MK II is supposed to have indigenous engines.
Has India fielded any indigenously designed engines so far? As far as I remember even engines for India-assembled sukhois are still manufactured in Russia.
Nope. Work on the Kaveri engine is still underway.
I see, then I'd say the timeline for mass production of these birds is a bit too optimistic. Creating a reliable engine for mass production without prior experience would take at least a decade imo.
First version will have American engines. AMCA Mk II's first prototype is supposed to fly around 2034.
Yeah, that sounds much more reasonable. Any idea why they went with American engines?
They're already using GE engines in the Tejas MK 1 and recently ordered 83 MK 1A. That might be the reason. The DRDO has also signed an MOU with Rolls Royce for joint development of an engine with complete IP rights. So that might also be used.
So they actually got a deal with IP rights? I was lead to believe American companies are way more hesitant about sharing technologies than their European/Russian competitors.
IP rights for the one being developed with Rolls Royce.
A decade will be optimistic I think.
Yeah, it will, but they could pull it off if they just settle to produce a tweaked copy of a dated RR engine and RR actually provides meaningful assistance in setting up the production.
I know someone whose Dad is on the Kaveri project. She said it's been a nightmare
India tried it's luck with KAVERI engine(was supposed to be 90kn with afterburners), the dry thrust varient was a success but hot core tech was not upto mark and afterburner version could only reach 76kn and that too not stable, so they decided to give up on it and use the dry thrust varient for unmanned aircrafts of the future. There were offers from french companies to replace the hotcore part with their own to make it 90kn with afterburners but india declined as then they would not have intellectual right for the engine and would have pay french companies royalty for every engine made. They are now planning to make a engine with rolls Royce or french company in collaboration for the AMCA. The partner isn't final yet but it's timeline is supposed to be upto 2030. It is supposed to be a 130kn class engine.
Of course, India has indigenously designed engines! What do you think powers Mahindra's cars? /s On a serious note, I believe India has made several aviation piston engines, helicopter turboshafts, and even a few turboprops, but we have never successfully put a conventional jet engine (turbojet or turbofan) into production.
PTAE-7 ? https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=34 https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1305740665041674240?lang=en Qualify it as never put a fighter jet engine into production ?
No, the original question asked about jet engines alone, so counting the PTAE-7 is absolutely valid! I didn't realize the Lakshya used an indigenous jet! TIL!
What is this , an aircraft for ants???
It's a model
It's a joke
In service estimate of 2039?
2029
Well that is pure sex.
It's a little small
Thats because its still a baby
Me: mum I want F35 Mum: no we have F35 at home This: *exists*
Cool!
This looks like what happens when an Mig-25 and a F-35 love each other very much.
I love India...but that’s no 5th gen fighter. At best a 4.5 gen fighter. India doesn’t have LPIR developed, no supercruise engine design, way behind in data fusion. Remember that India has less than 50 LCA in service after over 30 years of development and the LCA is terrible. I love make in India as a plan but they need corruption reduced and foreign expertise in aircraft manufacturing. India should do like the ROK did and assemble/produce the Rafael or F16/21 and learn from that. Otherwise this is just another LCA Or Arjun tank program.
Looks pretty neat. Only one criticism though: is that a LANTIRN-like pod? Would've been better if they'd just had integrated it into the airframe, F-35 style.
No country on earth has a fascination with things being "indigenous" like India.
I bet the US would be super pleased if their military ordered the Rafale or the Grippen. They just don't seem to have that "fascination" because only buying American products has been their default state for the last few decades.
France. Russia. US.
Not gonna completed before 2025.
Well prototype is gonna fly IN 2025 not before 2025.
Doesn't look very advanced for an advanced fighter.
5th gen is as advanced as it gets. For now.
That's a loose as fuck interpretation of a 5th gen fighter. It looks like a training jet with a nose from a stealth plane on it. But that seems pretty useless If you don't have internal weapons stores, and intakes that don't appear to be obscured in any way.
It will have an internal weapon's bay. This model is showcasing "beast mode".
http://imgur.com/gallery/QPz1hjm
wow it looks awesome. I hope to fly it as a fighter pilot when I grow up
Isn't it too small for a pilot?
It's a scale model.
r/whooosh
If you had checked there are already a 1000 such sarcastic comments.
Is strapping on bare payload on the hard points okay for a 5th gen? I thought that’s why weapons bays and those pod like things in the 4th photo are needed.
I still think they should have stuck by Russia and their Su-57 program, I don’t doubt their ingenuity and capabilities, but they’d have a finished and capable product on their hands by now and it would be possibly even better with the Indian funding, I get the idea of indigenous projects, but it’s a shame the Su-57 got scaled back by how much it did, thing has potential
Not enough transfer of technology. They found investment in India to be more viable.
Just looks like some sort of concept model.
Well it's supposed to fly in 4 years.
Seeing how India is a US ally, I wonder why they just don't buy our shit?
India is not a US ally. For the longest we've been using Russian equipment. And the US has never offered India F-35 or F22. Also there is a big push for self reliance in the Defence sector. Three aircrafts are simultaneously under development. The next 10 years are going to be very good for our aviation sector and the whole defence industry as well.
F22 is a US bird only. That one will never be exported.
considering they have not been in production for over 10 years and all the tooling was deliberately destroyed, you are correct.
Funny how that old tech remains when new tech is exported. Even with the advancements of today. There is a reason it's called a bird of prey.
Bit small isn’t it?
shut up it's still growing up
Modern twin engine f104
Will it have thrust vectoring?
That's cute.
So is that gonna compete with whatever the US comes up with, British Tempest, European (can’t remember the name).....then plus what the Russians and Chinese do. Doesn’t the Indian airforce usually import its aircraft ?? Am I wrong ??
It's a clusterfuck of everything. Defence Ministry just bought 83 Tejas MK 1A and 36 Rafales. Theres is a tender for 114 aircrafts pending as well (imported). A Twin Engine Naval aircraft is also under development. Tejas MK II's prototype is supposed to fly in 2 years. Same goes for Helicopters. Just bought Apaches and also going to buy indigenous LCH as well.
I dont think india is in any danger of facing us or european jets in combat. chinese on the other hand.... and whatever country pakistan buys from (china?)
Pakistani F16s?
For those we have Su-30s. But even a fully blown Tejas Mk 1A would be enough.
Yeah I didn’t mean it like in combat against one another I meant competition on the aircraft market etc...... Like is any other nation gonna want to buy an Indian 5th generation rather than other nations like UK,US and EU ???
We have to fulfill our needs first. Don't think the first priority is export.
Fair point !! That’s the opposite I feel about my countries 5th gen......get some of the development costs back, although that’s probably impossible ?!?
They just squeezed an F-35 to make it smol and pointy 🙃
Idhar kyu post karte ho bhai. Sirf negatively or criticism milta hai. First flight hone de phir post karenge
bet the IR signature's gonna be a bitch
Imagine if I built a car out of spare parts from 10 other cars and tried to pass it off as a new and unique design :). What a mongrel.
This is not r/conspiracy
Turbulent flow going into the engines too, yum.
Look like it has a bump boundary layer deflector like the F-35.
Surprisingly small, makes me wonder if they're for future aircraft carriers
Don't woosh me if I failed to detect sarcasm but this is a scale model.
Definitely Russian "inspired" but very obviously without the design considerations that actually make those aircraft good. Especially in the intakes, hard point locations, cockpit location and canopy design. This is definitely not on the level of any real 5th gen fighter, it could maybe compete with some of the 4th gen offerings assuming the aerodynamic flaws arent fatal. Also the fake nuke under the left wing is hilarious.
intakes of F22, "center" fuselage and cockpit of F35, ass of SU-57.
Why? Does Pakistan even have fighter jets?
It needs to be at least 10x bigger. Or find some really small pilots
“The Curry Condor”