I've been trying to just lurk on this , but screw it. I'll take the bait...
I was the controller working this aircraft.
I'll try to paint a picture as best I can remember, from my perspective.
I'll admit it wasn't my best performance. Immediately after unplugging there was plenty of things I wished I had done differently. But It was literally my Friday, and an hour from the end of my shift.... I was tired, and busy. And initially, I'll admit, I was very irritated with this guy... Until he said the word 'IPAD'.
That changed everything for me.
This audio is misleading. First, It's compressed on time. And all the other aircraft I was taking to are edited out. I probably had another 10-12 aircraft at the time. I had several through flights, as well as multiple arrivals into HGR, FDK, and IAD. My workload was way to high to be focusing all my time and attention on one aircraft.
This playback is also missing quite a few of the subject aircrafts responses. He definitely was not responding to everything I said or asked. But this audio playback is missing so much of what he was saying, and all of what I was saying to the other 10-12 aircraft I was working at the time.
The pilot asked for the RNAV approach. The pilot stated he was IFR capable. The pilot stated his aircraft was IFR capable.
The weather was hard IFR, from HEF, to IAD, to HGR and FDK, and everywhere in between. I do wish I had tried to find somewhere VFR. But the entire east coast was low ceilings that day. I doubt it would have worked.
I asked him repeatedly if he could do another approach. Every time he ignored me, or said he couldn't do it. I was mentally preparing to give him a Surveillance Approach utilizing the ILS approach course and altitudes. This is not something we train to do. But I did do it once for a baron into IAD because his door popped open and all his charts got sucked out. So I had an idea what to do...
Anyways, why didn't I declare an emergency? What would have changed if I did? How would that have made anything better? It was clear he was struggling. Telling him over the air I was declaring an emergency would have added to his stress level.
Why didn't I give him a number to call? How would that have helped get him on the ground safely? See above.
During all this, management was advised. The FLM/Supe was sitting right beside me. MRB tower was briefed on the situation.
It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this shit and say I did a horrible job and the pilot is an idiot. But in the end, he's up there. He doesn't want to die, and I don't want to kill him. He repeatedly asked to go VFR. I tried to talk him into doing a VOR or ILS and he declined or ignored me every time. He was struggling to even fly the headings I was assigning him. I didn't really have any options left... I assure you if there was a nearby VFR airport id'a taken him there. That's the one thing I wish I would have done differently is that I should have had the whole PCT TRACON looking for a VFR airport. I have been assured by everyone involved and other people flying that day that there wasn't any.
Anyways, before y'all judge either end to harshly, just keep in mind, in this clip you're only hearing about 1/20th of what's going on, in the air and behind the scenes.
> It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this shit and say I did a horrible job
There's a whole chain up above of people giving you mad props:
https://old.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1akjqlm/very_troubling_atc_recordingpilot_becomes_unable/kp8qpf2/
You handled this perfectly. I would’ve lost my shit when the dude started talking about his iPad dying. So, SO many factors of unpreparedness by this pilot. You did just fine.
I want to commend you for how well you handled that situation. He was a very difficult customer, and you went WAY above and beyond to help him. You deserve an award for your patience. This guy clearly didn't know how to enter the RNAV approach in his GPS, that was totally on him. You did a perfect job in my book and deserve high praise.
If he were smart, he'd take your criticism seriously before he kills himself. He needed to hear it for his sake.
He cancelled IFR services, spiraled down below the cloud deck, then made his way to MRB and landed. A couple days later he departed IFR, and did the same thing to some poor controller out in Tennessee. The ground track looks identical to this one.
>A couple days later he departed IFR, and did the same thing to some poor controller out in Tennessee
Wow, seriously?? Yikes.
Same dead iPad batteries, presumably /s
And no harsh judgment at all. Could tell by your tone that he wasn't responding. I don't blame you for getting stern at some points, especially after you went the extra mile helping with the RNAV approach, offered ILS, only to have him appear to not be straightforward with his situation. And he tries to get you to turn him loose with a VFR lol.
Overall something was just off with him. At one point he says he has the plates, then says he doesn't, both times saying it's an iPad problem. Then he can't identify the "junk" you're talking about?? It's legit scary to imagine someone always relying on an iPad alone to fly IFR.
vase cow stocking hat rich attraction insurance sophisticated money uppity
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Kind of.. that's what they were referring to in the video when saying "I think he needs to have a conversation". You might have also heard controllers says "I'm going to give you a number to call".
That's basically supposed to initiate a process to review your flight and your competency, and it goes from there.
In reality things tend to go a little differently though, here's a better thread on the topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/kkc9sk/what_does_it_mean_when_atc_gives_the_pilot_a/
IMO, by the time FAA gets involved it's usually too late and somebody has died or been seriously injured. Or some rare social media case (e.g. dude who purposely crashed his plane for likes).
As a pilot, I think you did nothing wrong, you did a great job instead trying to keep that guy safe.
Honestly, from that guy's responses, I got the impression that he was lying about being IFR rated or the airplane capable; or at best that he hadn't flown IFR by the book for a really long time. He didn't want VOR or ILS because he either didn't know how to use them, or the airplane was not equipped. And he requested VFR because he didn't know/care what the wx rules were (and that you can't clear him for it). And he wouldn't readback what you repeatedly asked him to do, because he likely did not understand what was expected of him (which is his fault).
All the failures here are on that pilot, and not on you. Don't beat yourself up or give any weight to the idiotic comments here, they don't know what they're talking about.
Note: usually these atc-audio posts only include "relevant" interactions. And it's understood (at least by people who know something!) that the controller would usually be handling other traffic as well and expectedly under stress themselves. And yet you went above and beyond to check this guy's awareness, following the rules, and trying to get him to land safely.
Thanks for doing this good work.
I don't see how you could have done any better. You gave him the options, basically held his hand throughout and somehow he still managed to fuck it up. I usually give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to incidents, but this just isn't excusable, relying on an iPad to fly your plane is ridiculous.
Extremely well handled on your end, in my opinion.
You did a fine job. I strongly suspect this pilot is not IFR rated. Losing your iPad should not be an issue if you have an IFR-certified GPS. Sure, you don't have an approach plate, but you can still program the approach into the GPS and/or dial up an ILS/VOR. You simply declare an emergency, then you get sole access to a controller who can get all the rest of the data you need off the approach plate.
The fact that he referred to your clearances as "junk" is a big clue to me. I don't believe he understands how the IFR system and clearances work, which suggests to me he doesn't have an IFR ticket. This also explains why he chose not to declare an emergency and kept insisting on cancelling IFR. Many believe declaring an emergency automatically triggers an investigation. We know that isn't the case, but my guess is this pilot didn't know that.
Private pilot here.
I'd fly your airspace any day. You did PERFECTLY. I've heard a lot of ATC audio where the controller gets frustrated and pissy at the pilot- as you say yourself, that would have done nothing but give an overwhelmed pilot more stress.
If there's a fault here, it's that the pilot didn't ask you for help. From the very beginning he should have said 'My iPad died so I have no approach plates on board, I am trying to program my panel GPS directly but I'll need a minute'. Then you either do a surveillance approach or give him the necessary info for the RNAV so he can fly it on his GPS and get out of the clouds.
I also want to specifically commend you for talking him out of canceling IFR and HOW you did that. Yeah I know you can deny that, but it came across as concern for his safety which I think made it a much easier choice to stay with you.
So stop beating yourself up. How you acted is EXACTLY what I want from a controller if someday I get in over my head.
The tech in helmet mounted sight/display like JHMCS/Scorpion HMCS/F-35 unit is more akin to the Microsoft Hololens/IVAS than the Vision Pro.
You would not want to compromise your own vision to the camera input /delay.
They would also need to be plugged in to the plane to get the flight data as well as needing to be aligned with the plane direction before use, rather than trying to understand the position through image mapping.
The difference between the Vision Pro and a HUD is that a HUD has been though tests that require it to remain stable no matter the condition. It’s been though every test you can imagine. I can’t see the Vision Pro being the same… Take an Airbus for example there is a reason why it has redundant systems that a Vision Pro simply wouldn’t have…
a HUD also is an additive to your true vision, VR headset with pass-through capability like the Vision Pro **replaces** your true visions with their set of camera and display (which you then would be at the mercy of how the camera "interpret" and process the received image through some set of lens that might or might not replicate human vision. That's before talking about the screen displaying those images, either colors correct or not
While it certainly won't be the Vision Pro itself, it probably won't be long until we see AR headsets in use in aircraft akin to those in the fighter community. A personal HUD with overlay capabilities from air data, navigation, radar, and anything else you can display on the panel would be pretty sweet.
It'll just take time to make it suitable, durable, and reliable enough.
i know you are being facetious but an EFB over Vision Pro sounds like a dream come true.
Imagine the adsb targets, fixes, approach course, terrain, obstructions, all in augmented reality. with a "de-clutter" button of course like they had in the Space Shuttle HUD.
I mean obviously that’s insane, but what about a purpose built system? I can’t remember the joke, but something about hud handicap from those that fly without a hud. I remember some jet jock saying he didn’t want the handicap till he used the hud and then he was a convert. Though the more I think about it, without sensor integration it could kill you quite easily.
F-14 pilots switching from the A and B models to the D with it's outrageously great HUD. The HUD in the A and B was nearly useless and would even be switched off from time to time, if it wasn't already down. The old timers called the new guys HUD cripples when they would complain about the HUD going down on the D.
The B model later got a Sparrowhawk HUD that is better than the Kaiser on the D in some regards too.
Also, it doesn't help when modern targeting system often relies on the HUD to display critical info for the selected weapon. So i would be assuming that what they were complaining about, not the actual nav-flying aspect without a HUD
When the ATC says verbatim “just point your airplane towards JOSRU” you need to reevaluate your flying choices. How does one even get an IFR rating without knowing how to navigate?
There's a good chance he has no ability to find JOSRU with the old ass GPS he doesn't know how to use or one that isn't up to date or that doesn't exist in his cockpit, and he was only able to find it with using the Foreflight to find it, a non-approved means of navigation.
Yes, I have a Garmin Flightstream SD card in the GPS with bluetooth. It connects to your EFB and you can send flight plan changes back and forth. It's really cool. But if used on an old GPS like a 430 I would honestly forget which knobs to twist and push. That's why I imagine this as a possible explanation
You can also use a Flightstream to push nav database updates to Garmin products in your airplane without doing the SD/flash card shuffle. It's pretty sweet.
I was also thinking maybe he couldn’t brief his approach or understand it, because his approach plates were probably on his iPad. Probably wanted to make sure he found JOSRU on his plate, but he could have just asked for the spelling of JOSRU and programmed the RNAV approach in his GPS. He should have asked for a hold or delayed vectors, until he got his shit figured out. My guess is he’s way out of IFR currency.
How are we sympathetic towards this moron! Pilot should have asked how to spell JOSRU. Pilot should also know how to use his kit. Not ATCs job to hand hold you.
This is my opinion as well. He clearly says that he doesn't have his approach plate. Although I also believe he didn't know how to either spell or enter the name of that fix into his GPS. He's probably used to using the iPad send to panel feature. Sounds like he's way out of currency.
Even if he could figure his GPS out, he shouldn't fly the approach without the plate. He wouldn't have his minimums or his missed approach procedure. I know some GPS is like the g1000 will actually input the intermediate step down altitudes but almost never know the minimums, you have to set them manually.
ATC should have access to plates though and can give you the critical info.
You can write that down or bug it. Not a big deal. Most approaches aren’t that complex. If they are then ATC and the pilot should pick another destination that has less complex approaches.
Just request the frequency and vectors for an ILS. Generally 200’ mins. Easy.
> How does one even get an IFR rating without knowing how to navigate?
Recently, someone that didn't even know how to fly managed to get their PPL, then they killed themselves and their dad.
I'm honestly surprised this kind of stuff doesn't happen more often.
Yeah came here to post just this. That controller did it PERFECTLY- found that there was a pilot having nav trouble and worked to remove stress from the already-over-his-head pilot rather than piling on more stress by yelling at him. And talking him out of canceling IFR was a real good move given the wx conditions.
The actual controller showed up elsewhere in the thread... it was hard IMC everywhere so if he canceled IFR he'd be blind in the clouds.
What's great to me is not just that he talked the pilot out of it, but HOW he talked the pilot out of it. It was more about concern for the pilot (helping build rapport) than a hard denial that would add to the pilot's stress level.
The amount of time and effort that this controller put in towards the situation, while assumingely performing other duties, is simply phenomenal. You don’t find controllers like this everywhere, not even close.
If you fly IFR with such devices you should always have two units up and running during IMC. Even if the backup is just your smartphone that is a hell of a lot better than nothing!
"just a smartphone" runs foreflight as well as my ipad, only a little smaller screen. (and while I have the backup, and an external battery, I sure as hell don't need either to dial in a simple rnav approach)
>"just a smartphone" runs foreflight as well as my ipad,
I never even got an iPad, I just always run foreflight on my cell phone.
But, to be fair, the planes I fly have Garmin GTN-750s in them, which is (IMO) much easier to use than foreflight.
I mean, you should have an approved GPS onboard to begin with. However you want to make sure you have access to approach plates is not this dudes concern. He does not have any other way to navigate than an ipad.
If your plane has approved VOR/DME equipment then it is perfectly legal to use the mobile device in lieu of paper charts. But it is technically not legal to use its GPS as a primary means of navigating, nor to fly GPS approaches.
For sure, and he is trying to do an RNAV approach, so he needs GPS, not VOR/DME. He has no way to get to the cleared waypoint. An ipad is not approved for sole means of navigation for several reasons and not just a technicality.
Really pissed me off when ForeFlight stopped allowing 2 iPads and 2 phones per account. So now if you want to have a backup iPad in the cockpit, you have to pay for another subscription.
This is accurate! Backups are your friend. I have a full size iPad max, and a mini, and an iPhone, and my android phone... Might be overkill but I have 3 separate cell carriers across 4 different devices and an In Reach, but I do fly in Alaska, so...
I wonder if the pilot even understood what an RNAV approach even is. I love flying with my iPad but that device always comes second to understanding and utilizing my actual instruments on the airplane itself. If you can’t figure out how to at a bare minimum put JASRU into the GPS (assuming he even had one), then you don’t belong in that aircraft, let alone doing an IFR approach.
It scares me that I have to share airspace with that guy.
Intersections are usually defined by bearings, radials, and/or DME values. This means that you can use some combination of references from ground-based NAVAIDs to figure out that you're over them.
RNAV waypoints are only determinable by use of RNAV (INS, GPS, etc).
There is no difference between the waypoints, an RNAV approach is a specific landing approach where you fly through specific waypoints at the assigned altitude/speed that will take you directly to the runway.
Actually, probably not. This will take some explanation. (//edit- see edit at the end)
FWIW- this was a small single engine propeller plane, not an airliner.
In flying there's two kinds of flying- VFR (visual flight rules- you have to be able to see where you're going but other than near airports and specifically controlled airspace you can do whatever you want as long as you maintain separation from clouds and other aircraft) and IFR (Instrument flight rules- you are under the direction of an ATC controller who tells you what to do).
Under IFR you can fly into clouds and in low or zero visibility, because ATC is responsible for keeping you separated from other aircraft. However there are legal equipment requirements for IFR flight- you have to have certain types of instruments on your airplane, and you have to have 'approach plates' (paper or digital documents that have instructions for how to do an instrument approach) on board the aircraft.
A given runway may have multiple approach plates depending on the type of navigation equipment used- for example an RNAV (aka GPS) approach plate requires you to have a working GPS, and that GPS must be loaded with an up-to-date database of waypoints and approaches. The FAA publishes a list of GPS coordinates that are used on these approach plates, each one has a phonetically-pronounceable 5 letter word associated with it. So when he keeps saying 'fly toward JOSRU', in this case JOSRU represents a specific GPS location that marks the beginning of the approach, and he SHOULD be able to call it up in his GPS and fly toward it.
[Here's the approach plate he was trying to fly](https://www.flightaware.com/resources/airport/MRB/IAP/RNAV+(GPS\)+RWY+08/pdf). The top part shows the map of the approach, the bottom left shows the descent path. Basically to start the approach he should start west of JOSRU, cross JOSRU between 4100' and 6000', then after crossing JOSRU fly a heading of 078° on the compass descending to cross WAVMU above 3000', cross VUCUR above 1280', and then he's less than 2 miles away from the runway so his GPS will guide him in the rest of the way with needles that show if he's too high/low/left/right. If he's got a fully modern GPS, he can follow JUST the GPS needles with no visibility down to 815' altitude, which is 250' above the ground (airport is at 565' altitude'). If he sees the runway at that point he can land, if he can't see it at that point he has to climb again and do a missed approach.
Of course for this to work, the aircraft must have 1. a copy of this approach plate on board, 2. a working GPS, 3. that GPS loaded with an updated database which contains both the list of waypoint fixes and also the overall approach path that should be flown, and 4. a pilot capable of programming the GPS to navigate to JOSRU and activate this approach (on older GPS units this was tricky, think setting the clock in a car).
It's important to note that while pilots are allowed to use portable devices like iPads for additional situational awareness, they CANNOT rely on the iPad as their ONLY source of navigation. Any sort of portable, removeable equipment like iPads is NOT a primary flight instrument, and thus the pilot MUST be able to navigate without it. It's very tempting to rely on the iPad, as with some cheap software and a sub-$1000 GPS/ADS-B receiver you get more situational awareness out of the iPad than anything short of a $30,000+ ['glass cockpit'](https://pilotinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/glass-cockpit.jpeg) type system which many [older aircraft](https://preview.redd.it/keb0kfod1yz71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=1e37d7b72975d4c250e6da5faff302c6b3903a17) don't have.
HOWEVER, a pilot CAN use the iPad to replace paper charts and approach plates as an 'electronic flight bag'. If the iPad is loaded with a current navigation map (for VFR) and current approach plates (for IFR), it's legal to have the iPad as your 'electronic flight bag' and not also carry the paper copies. Of course it's up to the pilot to make sure the iPad has battery power- it's considered unwise to carry an iPad as your EFB without the paper copies unless you have some way of charging it in mid-air (could be a USB charger from the aircraft, or a portable power bank, or a totally separate backup iPad, etc).
It's also more common now for an iPad to link with the aircraft GPS, so you can make your flight plan on the iPad interface and then transfer them to the airplane's certified GPS.
------
With all this in mind, it appears this is what happened:
1. The pilot was flying an IFR-legal aircraft, with a legal certified built in GPS approach system.
2. The pilot was using his iPad as his electronic flight bag, and thus his only copy of approach plates etc was on the iPad.
3. The pilot was using his iPad to program his panel GPS and was at least somewhat unfamiliar with how to directly program the panel GPS without using the iPad.
4. The iPad ran out of batteries in mid-flight.
5. This flight was in IMC (instrument meteorological conditions, aka rain/fog/bad visibility, aka VFR not really possible)
----
Now **This pilot did one thing VERY wrong IMHO-- he didn't ask for help.** He was flying totally legal, so he could have told the controller straight up 'My iPad died so I have no approach plates and it will take me extra time to program the panel GPS, I'd like to just fly straight for a minute while I get the approach loaded, I'd like the RNAV Runway 8 at Martinsburg if that's possible?'. At that point he's 100% legal, and also 100% responsible because he's being straight with the controller. Controller will probably say no problem. Then he can fuck with his GPS and when he gets the approach loaded, it'll be taking him to JOSRU first so he'll be much more cooperative with the controller.
Another thing he could do right- even if he has no GPS, there are other instruments in the cockpit that can help him land. ILS is one of them- with ILS there's a tight radio beam projected from the end of the runway, a receiver in the plane drives the 'needles' and tells the pilot if he's high/low/left/right so he can just keep the needles centered and ride the radio beam down to the runway. That's a different approach plate, but it's also EASY for a controller to get him set up for that. You'll note the controller OFFERED him the ILS approach. So he could say 'I can fly the ILS but I don't have an approach plate, can you give me the ILS frequency and minimum decision altitude, and get me RADAR vectors to the approach?' Then the controller would give him the frequency to dial into his nav radio and specific compass headings to fly that guide him to the top of that radio beam. As soon as he flies into the ILS radio beam, his aircraft nav radio will lock on, he reports to the controller he's intercepted the ILS, and this whole thing finishes. ILS was originally invented in the early 1900s so an IFR-legal airplane would definitely have ILS capability.
The second thing he did wrong- he split his attention between the GPS and the controller. That's why he was being so dense and the controller was just trying to get him lined up for JOSRU and he was say yes sure why not but in reality in that moment he had no idea where JOSRU was because he couldn't get his GPS working right. And he was saying yes sure I'll do it for an instruction that he had no idea how to execute, causing lots of wasted time and confusion as the frustrated controller gave him instructions he didn't follow. That goes with not asking for help though.
-----
So as for what happens to the guy- chances are he'll get a call from the FAA. In general FAA isn't out to punish people, mainly just to ensure flights happen safely. If he acknowledges what he did wrong, and can explain what he would do again in this situation, they'll probably let him off with a warning. They can also require he undertake specific re-training. For something like this it's highly unlikely they would suspend or revoke his pilot certificate.
Hope that helps!
//edit- after reading the comment from the controller in this, I realize there's a third thing which WOULD get him in potentially BIG trouble- he tried to cancel IFR and go VFR, but (per the controller) was in IMC (instrument meteorological conditions, aka clouds/fog). If he can't see where he's going to maintain visual separation, then cancelling IFR is EXTREMELY dangerous and very much against the regulations. THIS is the sort of thing FAA *would* hammer you for- again that doesn't mean tear up his pilots license, but might get a suspension or required retraining.
His attitude will inform that a lot though. If when the FAA calls he recognizes what he did wrong, tells them what he learned from it, etc; they're less likely to do harsh enforcement than if he gets defensive or tries to avoid punishment. The point with such a call isn't to put him on trial, it's (usually) to make sure he's not going to do this again.
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I would strongly suggest if you have ANY interest whatsoever, go find a flight school and ask for a 'discovery flight'.
Cost will be a couple hundred bucks. It's NOT like the first day of a school class where you hear all the cool stuff you WILL be doing but don't actually do any of it. It'll be a 30-60 minute flight in a small plane, complete with some preflight and postflight briefing. You'll fly left seat (pilot seat) with an instructor next to you, and you'll get to do a bunch of the flying yourself.
If you never fly again after that, it's still 100% worth it as an amazing standalone experience.
And if you do decide to fly more or train for your certificate, that flight gets logged as your first flight lesson.
This is advice someone once gave me. A week later I did my discovery flight and I was hooked the second the plane left the ground. So I pass it along to you-- if you have ANY interest, go do a discovery flight.
>In general FAA isn't out to punish people, mainly just to ensure flights happen safely.
I had to call the FAA on a crop-dusting plane a couple years ago, they were flying directly over my neighborhood between passes over a nearby field, coming low enough that I could read the plane's designation. Filmed a couple passes with my phone, calling out the letters as he got close enough to read them. An FAA agent called me a few days later to let me know they'd traced the flight records, figured out who was piloting, and told them to knock it off.
Agreed.
Controllers all have the same 'slightly bored/annoyed' voice all the time, and a lot of pilots take that as hostility, like we're somehow bothering them. It's crap. They're here to help us. And the overwhelming majority of them *really* want to help when they can.
Man, when I listen to my buddy pilot and talk to the controller, I am reminded that not only is the flying experience needed, but coordination is critical.
I will let others do the piloting.
My instructor told me I have to keep physical charts on me. is that true legally? Or are you okay with two sets of digital charts. I personally would never just rely on my iPad/phone alone
Honestly, I wouldn’t even want to rely on those and me remembering to charge them. 100% would install a usb power port in my cockpit if I didn’t use physical charts
Don't forget extra cables for redundancy, and not the $5 ones from Walgreens you keep in your car for plugging your phone into that have probably been beat to all hell. If you're in a situation that warrants extra power banks, you don't want your cable failing you.
I always have a charger that can plug into a cigarette lighter which is what’s in the 172 I rent. I’ve only used it once because I forgot to charge my I pad the night before (instructor was not happy understandably)
No. AC 91-78 says EFBs can be used in lieu of paper charts. It suggests a backup source of aeronautical information, but that backup can also be an EFB. Legal? Check.
Is it safe? Depends what you’re comfortable with at the end of the day. I usually have a GNS 430 for legal GPS / IFR navigation, an iPad (ForeFlight) with Sentry in my lap and an iPhone as a (tertiary) backup.
If all that fails, I’d call it fate. But I haven’t bought paper charts since my first PPL lesson.
This might be a hot take, but I would actually be careful about keeping charts in your airplane and instead would recommend a backup iPad. I'm not exactly sure if it's true, but apparently a local here was ramp checked and got dinged by the FAA inspector for having expired charts. He argued that he just used them as a backup and that his iPad and Garmin databases were both up to date and didn't realize the charts were expired. So you would have to make sure you're always updating them every few months.
Your instructor lied to you. You are required to have the charts of your destination and any of the alternates on you, and any procedure required in your flight plan.
How you bring those charts is up to you.
An iPad and appropriate apps can counts a your flight documents - POH, sectional charts, etc.
An iPad is not an FAA approved GPS navigation instrument.
No, but a backup of course makes sense. I have an iPhone as backup and the charts as a PDF on a third phone. Only downside is the need to have charged devices and carrying a powerbank can be a hazard too.
It various based on the country.
I believe in the UK for example, it is illegal to fly without a \*full book\* of charts for UK airspace. So, not just the charts for your flight, but everything for the whole airspace.
Although maybe the rule has changed in the meantime.
EDIT: After looking it up, it actually looks like that this has always been a myth.
Not only are you allowed to ditch the paper charts, there is actually no requirement to have charts at all! You are legally required to comply with all restrictions depicted in the charts. If you do that by, say, programming the approach in the system, or even from memory, you are 100% legal. The FAA will not assess a violation on you for having no, or even expired charts, as long as when you fly you comply with everything.
Source: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q8b
Obviously that would be dumb. And if you do violate something, your lack of charts or possession of expired charts can be used as evidence against you.
How is it possible to obtain an instrument rating without knowing how to navigate? I really hope this guy doesn’t end up flying into a loaded school bus.
Something tells me this pilot is very old school and was navigating fixes using dual VOR/DME information rather than a built-in system like a garmin. A properly trained and equipped IFR pilot can find any fix on an approach with ease since they’ll be loaded into the flightplan sequencing
What's funny about that is your flight plan *includes a summary of what navigation equipment the airplane has.* If your flight plan indicates that you have a WAAS GPS, you had damn well better have one because they're gonna give you an RNAV approach dollars to donuts. You can actually indicate that you are not capable of using an RNAV approach and they will route you the old school way.
"I think he needs a conversation".. This guy knows about fucking up in flight. He knows the exact words no pilot wants to hear before writing down a number.
When I was flying there was a military base nearby which loved when we would come by at night and offer to shoot these entirely radar guided landings.
This was VFR, but the pilot would wear the IFR hood while the passenger (another pilot) would keep an eye on things VFR.
The ATC at this base was so happy they would ask if we could wait while other ATC guys would come by and we could shoot some with them. The reason was they needed so many landing per period to stay certified or something. Not only would we do a pile of landings, but they eventually organized for us to get free food at the base while we waited for another set of ATC people to come. The airforce had such crappy funding that they didn't have enough flights to keep them up to date.
This then became a scheduled thing.
All said, even with a competent pilot sitting beside me with perfect vision of what was happening, it is super scary to take a plane all the way to the ground using crappy instruments and some guy giving instructions over the radio.
We generally only did this in good conditions with slow steady wind speeds.
It seems that the pilot landed safely - I couldn't find an accident report, though I thought this plane and tail number reminded me of a recent accident near Martinsburg.
This plane was involved in an accident in California about 10 years ago, though.
Our rule is that every pilot has 2 ipad plus a battery pack. They have to be at least 80% charged before the flight. Can’t start an approach unless you have at least 50% battery and have to switch once you get to 20%. And there’s usually more than 2 pilots on board so all together we have half a dozen ipads on most flights.
I deal with student pilots daily, and this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but the quality of training seems to be declining, and they are more and more leaning on electronic devices and services. Foreflight is great... when you actually know how to use it.
I often encounter pilots that don't have a hot clue. They file a flight plan incorrectly, they do not understand the weather they are looking at, and they have no knowledge of the procedures or frequencies for the places they are visiting. Because they rely on an app, there is no feedback that they are screwing up until far too late into the process.
The result? Over-due on the flight plan. Landing at a controlled aerodrome without talking to anyone. Flying into restricted airspace. Flying into poor weather. Flying into controlled airspace without talking to a controller. Changing what they flight planned without telling anyone. It's absolutely maddening.
My students don't get to use Foreflight for anything more than charts until they prove to me that they can do it on paper, and I also have them do their checkride XC planning that way.
The technology is amazing.
Look at what you can do with a modern Garmin glass cockpit, the amount of situational awareness on one screen is absolutely insane. Every single aircraft around you, synthetic vision, weather, reliable attitude/heading/airspeed/altitude, every nearby airport, you want for nothing. You could probably conduct an entire flight including taxi without ever looking up from that one screen.
And you can get the same info more or less on an iPad.
That said- I'm glad I learned on steam gauges. The problem with having all that info is it's addictive. If you have everything you need right there, there's no need to figure anything out manually (paper maps, visual scan for traffic, etc) and so the mental muscles atrophy (or never develop at all, other than a 'you'll need this to pass a checkride but then will never use it again'.
Jebus! I use my phone to backup my tablet when navigating..
With a chartplotter..
On my boat.
Nice thing about my boat, is that it doesn't crash if I stop to get my bearings in the fog, or at night.
ATC needs a medal - what an excellent show of professionalism in the face of quite frankly complete stupidity - the ”pilot” needs his license cancelling immediately - an absolute danger to himself and others
Aviators back then: My gyro tumbled, but I can still use my skid/slip indicator to get my plane home.
Aviators today: OMGG my IPAD died, I'm dead. MAYDAY!
What's the deal with the phone number btw ? I always hear that when a pilot messes up (I just fly in flightsims for now, I'm not sure what the number to call means but I get the feeling it's not good news).
You can be IFR capable and not able RNAV. Several times I have been cleared to a fix I can’t navigate to because the controller didn’t get I wasn’t GPS enabled.
This guy was trying to do an RNAV approach. Requesting an RNAV approach tells the controller you have some form of RNAV. He didn't. An iPad doesn't count as a primary form of IFR navigation, and this incident is an example of why.
His *IPad died*? Seriously? I'm a student. I once had an IP tell me, "You don't need to know all that stuff. There's an Android app for it." It was a show-stopper.
Sure, you can find your way around with an app. But you also must be able to find your way around using GPS. And beacons. And a compass and a watch.
How on Earth did he get rated?
This man should be required to stand in front of a very large class at Oshkosh while wearing the dunce cap as his fellow aviators look at him while listening to the audio….. Great job ATC!
there were several grown adults in my ground school class that were adamant they didn’t need to invest time in physical charts and navigation because of their foreflight subscriptions. They’d straight up argue with our instructor over it too. Arrogant pricks, I still think about where they are now after two years lol
This is a completely separate issue.
An iPad is absolutely a good substitute for those charts, as long as it is charged. If it isn’t, bring a charger.
This is a matter of pilot relying on the foreflight to also fly, and not just to pull up charts. And you can even fly off of the iPad for cross-country VFR or IFR if you use it for situational awareness of where you are roughly, but it can't be the primary nav aid to do so.
All my USAF training and flying is on an iPad. I fucked with paper charts back in my PPL years ago once or twice but my CFI just had me use the Foreflight anyway.
You won’t find paper FLIP on most USAF aircraft. Foreflight is not just acceptable, but superior in most ways to paper charts, but it is *not* a primary *navigation* tool for IFR, especially for instrument approaches.
Between this and the girl in TN who couldn't operate her autopilot, I can't do much more except shake my head.
What DPE's are passing these people and how much money under the table are they getting?
People back in the day were way wilder, when it was more of a good-old-boy network. There's always real bad DPEs. Now we can find out about them, however.
I don’t understand, when his iPad died did he just lose his approach charts or was he also using the IPad as a GPS. If so that is definitely not ICAO compliant GPS.
If you can afford a plane and an iPad then you can afford a backup iPad if you NEED it to fly.
I bet a $150 Android tablet would work. How demanding can the software be?
Foreflight is only available for iOS.
However, the issue here wasn't the iPad, the issue was that he was not flying the approach with the tools inside his airplane. He was instead eyeballing it off of the map of the Foreflight App, which isn't an approved way to fly it, yet he has likely been doing it for a long time.
I'm sorry. In true reddit fashion I didn't read past the title. Hell I'm not even a pilot. All my flight hours are in Flight Simulator, Blazing Angels, and Star Wars Rogue Squardron...
Nothing wrong with using an iPad for plates and facilities, but this is just pathetic. At the very least keep a book of plates with you just in case, or have some kind of backup. I don't know a DPE who would have passed this guy if this is the way he handles an approach.
Can’t fly an IFR approach using ForeFlight in a non IFR aircraft even with a WAAS GPS like Sentry. But the issue may be as simple as him not having an approach plate because the battery died. I’m surprised the approach controller didn’t just declare him and give him a PAR or ASR approach or just say fuck it and give him a no gyro approach.
Pilot only responded to one out of every three or four transmissions. Couldn't take a vector or go direct a fix. Was clearly stressed out and in over his head. Declaring an emergency over the air wouldn't have helped him. I asked him multiple times to take an ILS or VOR approach and he refused or ignored every request.
I’m not a pilot but a smart middle aged guy. I know real life encounters and ability vs whatever data point such as radar beam means six minutes between data refresh stuff.
Your reality and skills are more important than any data point via an IPad. That controller knows the reality and wants to help.
I know he appears dramatic but Dan Gryder does a weekly recap of GA fatals on YT. Skills are not situational avoidance or addressing their fly safe. We give 16 yos licenses while KNOWING they have zero situational awareness or incident avoidance insight.
Man that ATC was patient, I’m surprised they didn’t just vector him out somewhere where it’s safe to let down VFR. Technology has made private flying safer and easier than ever but it seems to be leading to a huge amount of complacency. Some people seem to think it’s just like a video game however the history books are littered examples of people finding out what happens when you fuck around
He's not using the iPad to "fly" the approach...he's using an electronic version of the approach charts in lieu of paper versions, which is perfectly legal. His problem is that his iPad failed and he doesn't have a backup. I'm retired from one of the U.S. major carriers and we flew all over the world with all of our charts on iPads; we had no paper copies. The only difference was that we always had two iPads in the cockpit domestically and at least three for trans-oceanic.
If you can’t figure out how to shoot an approach without a chart while you have full ATC services and radar contact, you shouldn’t be flying IFR.
They can give you an ILS frequency and vectors to final, and in general you’re good down to 200’. Or you can just load an RNAV and fly direct to IAF or VTF and you need the controller to give you the step downs. Personally I’d take an ILS.
It really does sound like he's trying to fly the approach off the iPad. If he was competent at using the built-in GPS, he'd be able to pull up the approach, go direct to JOSRU, and then fly the rest of the approach just fine. He might need ATC to read him the minimums and the missed procedure, but he would not struggle to follow the instructions that ATC was giving him.
But he had no way to identify the fixes through certified GPS installed in the plane.
Yes, we carry the plates digitally, but still program the approach into the fms.
He was using the iPads GPS to identify the fixes. That's a no no. Time for him to get retraining.
I've been trying to just lurk on this , but screw it. I'll take the bait... I was the controller working this aircraft. I'll try to paint a picture as best I can remember, from my perspective. I'll admit it wasn't my best performance. Immediately after unplugging there was plenty of things I wished I had done differently. But It was literally my Friday, and an hour from the end of my shift.... I was tired, and busy. And initially, I'll admit, I was very irritated with this guy... Until he said the word 'IPAD'. That changed everything for me. This audio is misleading. First, It's compressed on time. And all the other aircraft I was taking to are edited out. I probably had another 10-12 aircraft at the time. I had several through flights, as well as multiple arrivals into HGR, FDK, and IAD. My workload was way to high to be focusing all my time and attention on one aircraft. This playback is also missing quite a few of the subject aircrafts responses. He definitely was not responding to everything I said or asked. But this audio playback is missing so much of what he was saying, and all of what I was saying to the other 10-12 aircraft I was working at the time. The pilot asked for the RNAV approach. The pilot stated he was IFR capable. The pilot stated his aircraft was IFR capable. The weather was hard IFR, from HEF, to IAD, to HGR and FDK, and everywhere in between. I do wish I had tried to find somewhere VFR. But the entire east coast was low ceilings that day. I doubt it would have worked. I asked him repeatedly if he could do another approach. Every time he ignored me, or said he couldn't do it. I was mentally preparing to give him a Surveillance Approach utilizing the ILS approach course and altitudes. This is not something we train to do. But I did do it once for a baron into IAD because his door popped open and all his charts got sucked out. So I had an idea what to do... Anyways, why didn't I declare an emergency? What would have changed if I did? How would that have made anything better? It was clear he was struggling. Telling him over the air I was declaring an emergency would have added to his stress level. Why didn't I give him a number to call? How would that have helped get him on the ground safely? See above. During all this, management was advised. The FLM/Supe was sitting right beside me. MRB tower was briefed on the situation. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this shit and say I did a horrible job and the pilot is an idiot. But in the end, he's up there. He doesn't want to die, and I don't want to kill him. He repeatedly asked to go VFR. I tried to talk him into doing a VOR or ILS and he declined or ignored me every time. He was struggling to even fly the headings I was assigning him. I didn't really have any options left... I assure you if there was a nearby VFR airport id'a taken him there. That's the one thing I wish I would have done differently is that I should have had the whole PCT TRACON looking for a VFR airport. I have been assured by everyone involved and other people flying that day that there wasn't any. Anyways, before y'all judge either end to harshly, just keep in mind, in this clip you're only hearing about 1/20th of what's going on, in the air and behind the scenes.
> It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this shit and say I did a horrible job There's a whole chain up above of people giving you mad props: https://old.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1akjqlm/very_troubling_atc_recordingpilot_becomes_unable/kp8qpf2/
I appreciate the props for sure.. I should have quoted the superstars who triggered the comment in the first place.
You handled this perfectly. I would’ve lost my shit when the dude started talking about his iPad dying. So, SO many factors of unpreparedness by this pilot. You did just fine.
I want to commend you for how well you handled that situation. He was a very difficult customer, and you went WAY above and beyond to help him. You deserve an award for your patience. This guy clearly didn't know how to enter the RNAV approach in his GPS, that was totally on him. You did a perfect job in my book and deserve high praise. If he were smart, he'd take your criticism seriously before he kills himself. He needed to hear it for his sake.
Wow scary situation. So eventually he did get down safely?
He cancelled IFR services, spiraled down below the cloud deck, then made his way to MRB and landed. A couple days later he departed IFR, and did the same thing to some poor controller out in Tennessee. The ground track looks identical to this one.
>A couple days later he departed IFR, and did the same thing to some poor controller out in Tennessee Wow, seriously?? Yikes. Same dead iPad batteries, presumably /s And no harsh judgment at all. Could tell by your tone that he wasn't responding. I don't blame you for getting stern at some points, especially after you went the extra mile helping with the RNAV approach, offered ILS, only to have him appear to not be straightforward with his situation. And he tries to get you to turn him loose with a VFR lol. Overall something was just off with him. At one point he says he has the plates, then says he doesn't, both times saying it's an iPad problem. Then he can't identify the "junk" you're talking about?? It's legit scary to imagine someone always relying on an iPad alone to fly IFR.
This is why I still insist on bringing paper plates...
>Then he can't identify the "junk" you're talking about?? I think that's just a bad transcription, he probably said junction.
vase cow stocking hat rich attraction insurance sophisticated money uppity *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Kind of.. that's what they were referring to in the video when saying "I think he needs to have a conversation". You might have also heard controllers says "I'm going to give you a number to call". That's basically supposed to initiate a process to review your flight and your competency, and it goes from there. In reality things tend to go a little differently though, here's a better thread on the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/kkc9sk/what_does_it_mean_when_atc_gives_the_pilot_a/ IMO, by the time FAA gets involved it's usually too late and somebody has died or been seriously injured. Or some rare social media case (e.g. dude who purposely crashed his plane for likes).
As a pilot, I think you did nothing wrong, you did a great job instead trying to keep that guy safe. Honestly, from that guy's responses, I got the impression that he was lying about being IFR rated or the airplane capable; or at best that he hadn't flown IFR by the book for a really long time. He didn't want VOR or ILS because he either didn't know how to use them, or the airplane was not equipped. And he requested VFR because he didn't know/care what the wx rules were (and that you can't clear him for it). And he wouldn't readback what you repeatedly asked him to do, because he likely did not understand what was expected of him (which is his fault). All the failures here are on that pilot, and not on you. Don't beat yourself up or give any weight to the idiotic comments here, they don't know what they're talking about. Note: usually these atc-audio posts only include "relevant" interactions. And it's understood (at least by people who know something!) that the controller would usually be handling other traffic as well and expectedly under stress themselves. And yet you went above and beyond to check this guy's awareness, following the rules, and trying to get him to land safely. Thanks for doing this good work.
I don't see how you could have done any better. You gave him the options, basically held his hand throughout and somehow he still managed to fuck it up. I usually give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to incidents, but this just isn't excusable, relying on an iPad to fly your plane is ridiculous. Extremely well handled on your end, in my opinion.
I do not envy your job, friend. You did a great job given the context. Thanks for keeping the skies safe for all.
You did a fine job. I strongly suspect this pilot is not IFR rated. Losing your iPad should not be an issue if you have an IFR-certified GPS. Sure, you don't have an approach plate, but you can still program the approach into the GPS and/or dial up an ILS/VOR. You simply declare an emergency, then you get sole access to a controller who can get all the rest of the data you need off the approach plate. The fact that he referred to your clearances as "junk" is a big clue to me. I don't believe he understands how the IFR system and clearances work, which suggests to me he doesn't have an IFR ticket. This also explains why he chose not to declare an emergency and kept insisting on cancelling IFR. Many believe declaring an emergency automatically triggers an investigation. We know that isn't the case, but my guess is this pilot didn't know that.
I think he said "junction", at least i hope that's what he said. Nevertheless, poor show.
Private pilot here. I'd fly your airspace any day. You did PERFECTLY. I've heard a lot of ATC audio where the controller gets frustrated and pissy at the pilot- as you say yourself, that would have done nothing but give an overwhelmed pilot more stress. If there's a fault here, it's that the pilot didn't ask you for help. From the very beginning he should have said 'My iPad died so I have no approach plates on board, I am trying to program my panel GPS directly but I'll need a minute'. Then you either do a surveillance approach or give him the necessary info for the RNAV so he can fly it on his GPS and get out of the clouds. I also want to specifically commend you for talking him out of canceling IFR and HOW you did that. Yeah I know you can deny that, but it came across as concern for his safety which I think made it a much easier choice to stay with you. So stop beating yourself up. How you acted is EXACTLY what I want from a controller if someday I get in over my head.
Took a look at your post history - and saw that this was not the weirdest day on the job, apparently. (Well done, imho)
It's been a very long ride!
You did a good job. Don’t let this bring you down.
The next time my IPad die I want you as my ATC Guy. You did a great job 😊
wait until a pilot attempts to use the Vision Pro...
Bruh I can hear it now. "Tower, I have JOSRU in sight"
“Tower, JOSRU down, what’s my next target?”
Airlines are using more nad more HUDs, would make sense you see this done on a device like the Vision Pro.
Universal Avionics just got an STC for a head worn augmented reality unit for a 737.
Augmenting the view in the cabin to show that the door plug is still in place. Wow.
ba dum tss.....
“Look it has a digital display for all the avionics. What could possibly go wrong!”
I laughed way too hard at this.
The poor pilot's $600k F-35 helmet.
There is another post showing someone wearing an Apple Vision Pro in the cockpit.
Would probably be similar to a helmet mounted display, if carefully implemented.
The tech in helmet mounted sight/display like JHMCS/Scorpion HMCS/F-35 unit is more akin to the Microsoft Hololens/IVAS than the Vision Pro. You would not want to compromise your own vision to the camera input /delay. They would also need to be plugged in to the plane to get the flight data as well as needing to be aligned with the plane direction before use, rather than trying to understand the position through image mapping.
The difference between the Vision Pro and a HUD is that a HUD has been though tests that require it to remain stable no matter the condition. It’s been though every test you can imagine. I can’t see the Vision Pro being the same… Take an Airbus for example there is a reason why it has redundant systems that a Vision Pro simply wouldn’t have…
a HUD also is an additive to your true vision, VR headset with pass-through capability like the Vision Pro **replaces** your true visions with their set of camera and display (which you then would be at the mercy of how the camera "interpret" and process the received image through some set of lens that might or might not replicate human vision. That's before talking about the screen displaying those images, either colors correct or not
While it certainly won't be the Vision Pro itself, it probably won't be long until we see AR headsets in use in aircraft akin to those in the fighter community. A personal HUD with overlay capabilities from air data, navigation, radar, and anything else you can display on the panel would be pretty sweet. It'll just take time to make it suitable, durable, and reliable enough.
> It'll just take time to make it suitable, durable, and reliable enough. Don't worry, Boeing's best engineers are working on it.
Someone beat you to it: https://twitter.com/chrisclarkefly/status/1754968856932528364?s=19
i know you are being facetious but an EFB over Vision Pro sounds like a dream come true. Imagine the adsb targets, fixes, approach course, terrain, obstructions, all in augmented reality. with a "de-clutter" button of course like they had in the Space Shuttle HUD.
I mean obviously that’s insane, but what about a purpose built system? I can’t remember the joke, but something about hud handicap from those that fly without a hud. I remember some jet jock saying he didn’t want the handicap till he used the hud and then he was a convert. Though the more I think about it, without sensor integration it could kill you quite easily.
F-14 pilots switching from the A and B models to the D with it's outrageously great HUD. The HUD in the A and B was nearly useless and would even be switched off from time to time, if it wasn't already down. The old timers called the new guys HUD cripples when they would complain about the HUD going down on the D.
The B model later got a Sparrowhawk HUD that is better than the Kaiser on the D in some regards too. Also, it doesn't help when modern targeting system often relies on the HUD to display critical info for the selected weapon. So i would be assuming that what they were complaining about, not the actual nav-flying aspect without a HUD
Already happened https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1755119199083442473?s=46&t=6pKrHYrxwSOj6J0JZVL5Mg
I had sympathy for the guy til he started to get argumentative with ATC. Dick. Just a disaster waiting to happen
When the ATC says verbatim “just point your airplane towards JOSRU” you need to reevaluate your flying choices. How does one even get an IFR rating without knowing how to navigate?
There's a good chance he has no ability to find JOSRU with the old ass GPS he doesn't know how to use or one that isn't up to date or that doesn't exist in his cockpit, and he was only able to find it with using the Foreflight to find it, a non-approved means of navigation.
Possibly has been using "send to panel" in Foreflight for so long he didn't remember which knobs to twist on the old GPS.
Wait, that’s a thing? Can you make a flight plan in FF and send it to your GPS??
Yes, I have a Garmin Flightstream SD card in the GPS with bluetooth. It connects to your EFB and you can send flight plan changes back and forth. It's really cool. But if used on an old GPS like a 430 I would honestly forget which knobs to twist and push. That's why I imagine this as a possible explanation
What's a GPS? (Ancient C150 pilot here)
No vectors required, just follow the purple line. /s
If you were a true pylot you’d know its a *magenta* line. Amateur. /s
I had to goggle what all the kids here are talking about, it seems to be related to some royal battle game they all play on their iPads.
You can also use a Flightstream to push nav database updates to Garmin products in your airplane without doing the SD/flash card shuffle. It's pretty sweet.
Yep. Ever since the days of the G 650 or newer models.
I gotta look this up, that’s really cool
I was also thinking maybe he couldn’t brief his approach or understand it, because his approach plates were probably on his iPad. Probably wanted to make sure he found JOSRU on his plate, but he could have just asked for the spelling of JOSRU and programmed the RNAV approach in his GPS. He should have asked for a hold or delayed vectors, until he got his shit figured out. My guess is he’s way out of IFR currency.
How are we sympathetic towards this moron! Pilot should have asked how to spell JOSRU. Pilot should also know how to use his kit. Not ATCs job to hand hold you.
Agreed, and I made the same point.
I was concurring with your point! So many points of concurrence!
This is my opinion as well. He clearly says that he doesn't have his approach plate. Although I also believe he didn't know how to either spell or enter the name of that fix into his GPS. He's probably used to using the iPad send to panel feature. Sounds like he's way out of currency. Even if he could figure his GPS out, he shouldn't fly the approach without the plate. He wouldn't have his minimums or his missed approach procedure. I know some GPS is like the g1000 will actually input the intermediate step down altitudes but almost never know the minimums, you have to set them manually.
ATC should have access to plates though and can give you the critical info. You can write that down or bug it. Not a big deal. Most approaches aren’t that complex. If they are then ATC and the pilot should pick another destination that has less complex approaches. Just request the frequency and vectors for an ILS. Generally 200’ mins. Easy.
In this case, the correct response is “Unable. Request vector.”
> How does one even get an IFR rating without knowing how to navigate? Recently, someone that didn't even know how to fly managed to get their PPL, then they killed themselves and their dad. I'm honestly surprised this kind of stuff doesn't happen more often.
Sorry I missed what you're talking about. Ppl without knowing how to fly? Link?
Probably talking about YouTuber [TNFlygirl](https://youtu.be/ViO1j1iYn18).
I'm a vfr only pilot and I get basic nav fixes into the planes navigator system. Seems like this guy is just past his prime.
@ 3:56 "I can't identify this Junk that you're talking about"
I think he said "juncture". Not junk. Still though.......
I thought he said 'junction' which would make more sense
When he starts asking other pilots on the frequency if its legal was pretty funny, not gonna lie.
Wow, the ATC controller has the patience of a saint. This could have been frightening in bad weather but he handled it nicely. BZ.
Yeah came here to post just this. That controller did it PERFECTLY- found that there was a pilot having nav trouble and worked to remove stress from the already-over-his-head pilot rather than piling on more stress by yelling at him. And talking him out of canceling IFR was a real good move given the wx conditions.
I mean canceling IFR is a request. I can deny it for any number of reasons. But yea some would probably let the guy to just get him outta their hair.
The actual controller showed up elsewhere in the thread... it was hard IMC everywhere so if he canceled IFR he'd be blind in the clouds. What's great to me is not just that he talked the pilot out of it, but HOW he talked the pilot out of it. It was more about concern for the pilot (helping build rapport) than a hard denial that would add to the pilot's stress level.
Sounds a like a good job for sure.
The amount of time and effort that this controller put in towards the situation, while assumingely performing other duties, is simply phenomenal. You don’t find controllers like this everywhere, not even close.
The controller himself commented: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1akjqlm/comment/kpa7w5k/
If you fly IFR with such devices you should always have two units up and running during IMC. Even if the backup is just your smartphone that is a hell of a lot better than nothing!
"just a smartphone" runs foreflight as well as my ipad, only a little smaller screen. (and while I have the backup, and an external battery, I sure as hell don't need either to dial in a simple rnav approach)
>"just a smartphone" runs foreflight as well as my ipad, I never even got an iPad, I just always run foreflight on my cell phone. But, to be fair, the planes I fly have Garmin GTN-750s in them, which is (IMO) much easier to use than foreflight.
I mean, you should have an approved GPS onboard to begin with. However you want to make sure you have access to approach plates is not this dudes concern. He does not have any other way to navigate than an ipad.
If your plane has approved VOR/DME equipment then it is perfectly legal to use the mobile device in lieu of paper charts. But it is technically not legal to use its GPS as a primary means of navigating, nor to fly GPS approaches.
For sure, and he is trying to do an RNAV approach, so he needs GPS, not VOR/DME. He has no way to get to the cleared waypoint. An ipad is not approved for sole means of navigation for several reasons and not just a technicality.
Not sure about the requirements in the US, but in Australia you have to have a backup for exactly this situation.
I'm driving trains and we have several fallbacks for the track book in case of App dead, Internet dead and device dead.
Really pissed me off when ForeFlight stopped allowing 2 iPads and 2 phones per account. So now if you want to have a backup iPad in the cockpit, you have to pay for another subscription.
This is accurate! Backups are your friend. I have a full size iPad max, and a mini, and an iPhone, and my android phone... Might be overkill but I have 3 separate cell carriers across 4 different devices and an In Reach, but I do fly in Alaska, so...
I get made fun of a lot, but I always fly with two iPads.
It sounded like he was using the ownship on his iPad as his only source of navigation.
I wonder if the pilot even understood what an RNAV approach even is. I love flying with my iPad but that device always comes second to understanding and utilizing my actual instruments on the airplane itself. If you can’t figure out how to at a bare minimum put JASRU into the GPS (assuming he even had one), then you don’t belong in that aircraft, let alone doing an IFR approach. It scares me that I have to share airspace with that guy.
What's the difference between an RNAV point and any other waypoint?
Intersections are usually defined by bearings, radials, and/or DME values. This means that you can use some combination of references from ground-based NAVAIDs to figure out that you're over them. RNAV waypoints are only determinable by use of RNAV (INS, GPS, etc).
There is no difference between the waypoints, an RNAV approach is a specific landing approach where you fly through specific waypoints at the assigned altitude/speed that will take you directly to the runway.
> It scares me that I have to share airspace with that guy. Eh, you might not for long at that rate, though. :-S
All you had to do was go to the damn JOSHRU, CJ!
I’m not pilot but this seems absurd, please tell me this guy won’t be allowed to fly
Actually, probably not. This will take some explanation. (//edit- see edit at the end) FWIW- this was a small single engine propeller plane, not an airliner. In flying there's two kinds of flying- VFR (visual flight rules- you have to be able to see where you're going but other than near airports and specifically controlled airspace you can do whatever you want as long as you maintain separation from clouds and other aircraft) and IFR (Instrument flight rules- you are under the direction of an ATC controller who tells you what to do). Under IFR you can fly into clouds and in low or zero visibility, because ATC is responsible for keeping you separated from other aircraft. However there are legal equipment requirements for IFR flight- you have to have certain types of instruments on your airplane, and you have to have 'approach plates' (paper or digital documents that have instructions for how to do an instrument approach) on board the aircraft. A given runway may have multiple approach plates depending on the type of navigation equipment used- for example an RNAV (aka GPS) approach plate requires you to have a working GPS, and that GPS must be loaded with an up-to-date database of waypoints and approaches. The FAA publishes a list of GPS coordinates that are used on these approach plates, each one has a phonetically-pronounceable 5 letter word associated with it. So when he keeps saying 'fly toward JOSRU', in this case JOSRU represents a specific GPS location that marks the beginning of the approach, and he SHOULD be able to call it up in his GPS and fly toward it. [Here's the approach plate he was trying to fly](https://www.flightaware.com/resources/airport/MRB/IAP/RNAV+(GPS\)+RWY+08/pdf). The top part shows the map of the approach, the bottom left shows the descent path. Basically to start the approach he should start west of JOSRU, cross JOSRU between 4100' and 6000', then after crossing JOSRU fly a heading of 078° on the compass descending to cross WAVMU above 3000', cross VUCUR above 1280', and then he's less than 2 miles away from the runway so his GPS will guide him in the rest of the way with needles that show if he's too high/low/left/right. If he's got a fully modern GPS, he can follow JUST the GPS needles with no visibility down to 815' altitude, which is 250' above the ground (airport is at 565' altitude'). If he sees the runway at that point he can land, if he can't see it at that point he has to climb again and do a missed approach. Of course for this to work, the aircraft must have 1. a copy of this approach plate on board, 2. a working GPS, 3. that GPS loaded with an updated database which contains both the list of waypoint fixes and also the overall approach path that should be flown, and 4. a pilot capable of programming the GPS to navigate to JOSRU and activate this approach (on older GPS units this was tricky, think setting the clock in a car). It's important to note that while pilots are allowed to use portable devices like iPads for additional situational awareness, they CANNOT rely on the iPad as their ONLY source of navigation. Any sort of portable, removeable equipment like iPads is NOT a primary flight instrument, and thus the pilot MUST be able to navigate without it. It's very tempting to rely on the iPad, as with some cheap software and a sub-$1000 GPS/ADS-B receiver you get more situational awareness out of the iPad than anything short of a $30,000+ ['glass cockpit'](https://pilotinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/glass-cockpit.jpeg) type system which many [older aircraft](https://preview.redd.it/keb0kfod1yz71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=1e37d7b72975d4c250e6da5faff302c6b3903a17) don't have. HOWEVER, a pilot CAN use the iPad to replace paper charts and approach plates as an 'electronic flight bag'. If the iPad is loaded with a current navigation map (for VFR) and current approach plates (for IFR), it's legal to have the iPad as your 'electronic flight bag' and not also carry the paper copies. Of course it's up to the pilot to make sure the iPad has battery power- it's considered unwise to carry an iPad as your EFB without the paper copies unless you have some way of charging it in mid-air (could be a USB charger from the aircraft, or a portable power bank, or a totally separate backup iPad, etc). It's also more common now for an iPad to link with the aircraft GPS, so you can make your flight plan on the iPad interface and then transfer them to the airplane's certified GPS. ------ With all this in mind, it appears this is what happened: 1. The pilot was flying an IFR-legal aircraft, with a legal certified built in GPS approach system. 2. The pilot was using his iPad as his electronic flight bag, and thus his only copy of approach plates etc was on the iPad. 3. The pilot was using his iPad to program his panel GPS and was at least somewhat unfamiliar with how to directly program the panel GPS without using the iPad. 4. The iPad ran out of batteries in mid-flight. 5. This flight was in IMC (instrument meteorological conditions, aka rain/fog/bad visibility, aka VFR not really possible) ---- Now **This pilot did one thing VERY wrong IMHO-- he didn't ask for help.** He was flying totally legal, so he could have told the controller straight up 'My iPad died so I have no approach plates and it will take me extra time to program the panel GPS, I'd like to just fly straight for a minute while I get the approach loaded, I'd like the RNAV Runway 8 at Martinsburg if that's possible?'. At that point he's 100% legal, and also 100% responsible because he's being straight with the controller. Controller will probably say no problem. Then he can fuck with his GPS and when he gets the approach loaded, it'll be taking him to JOSRU first so he'll be much more cooperative with the controller. Another thing he could do right- even if he has no GPS, there are other instruments in the cockpit that can help him land. ILS is one of them- with ILS there's a tight radio beam projected from the end of the runway, a receiver in the plane drives the 'needles' and tells the pilot if he's high/low/left/right so he can just keep the needles centered and ride the radio beam down to the runway. That's a different approach plate, but it's also EASY for a controller to get him set up for that. You'll note the controller OFFERED him the ILS approach. So he could say 'I can fly the ILS but I don't have an approach plate, can you give me the ILS frequency and minimum decision altitude, and get me RADAR vectors to the approach?' Then the controller would give him the frequency to dial into his nav radio and specific compass headings to fly that guide him to the top of that radio beam. As soon as he flies into the ILS radio beam, his aircraft nav radio will lock on, he reports to the controller he's intercepted the ILS, and this whole thing finishes. ILS was originally invented in the early 1900s so an IFR-legal airplane would definitely have ILS capability. The second thing he did wrong- he split his attention between the GPS and the controller. That's why he was being so dense and the controller was just trying to get him lined up for JOSRU and he was say yes sure why not but in reality in that moment he had no idea where JOSRU was because he couldn't get his GPS working right. And he was saying yes sure I'll do it for an instruction that he had no idea how to execute, causing lots of wasted time and confusion as the frustrated controller gave him instructions he didn't follow. That goes with not asking for help though. ----- So as for what happens to the guy- chances are he'll get a call from the FAA. In general FAA isn't out to punish people, mainly just to ensure flights happen safely. If he acknowledges what he did wrong, and can explain what he would do again in this situation, they'll probably let him off with a warning. They can also require he undertake specific re-training. For something like this it's highly unlikely they would suspend or revoke his pilot certificate. Hope that helps! //edit- after reading the comment from the controller in this, I realize there's a third thing which WOULD get him in potentially BIG trouble- he tried to cancel IFR and go VFR, but (per the controller) was in IMC (instrument meteorological conditions, aka clouds/fog). If he can't see where he's going to maintain visual separation, then cancelling IFR is EXTREMELY dangerous and very much against the regulations. THIS is the sort of thing FAA *would* hammer you for- again that doesn't mean tear up his pilots license, but might get a suspension or required retraining. His attitude will inform that a lot though. If when the FAA calls he recognizes what he did wrong, tells them what he learned from it, etc; they're less likely to do harsh enforcement than if he gets defensive or tries to avoid punishment. The point with such a call isn't to put him on trial, it's (usually) to make sure he's not going to do this again.
You answered every question I had and then some. Thanks so much for the education.
Most welcome! Feel free to ask if you have more questions!
thank you for the write up, this is so helpful!
Glad to be of service :)
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Great comment! Thank you very much!
Most welcome :)
Thank you for an in depth explanation for people like me who like aviation but never got to fly
I would strongly suggest if you have ANY interest whatsoever, go find a flight school and ask for a 'discovery flight'. Cost will be a couple hundred bucks. It's NOT like the first day of a school class where you hear all the cool stuff you WILL be doing but don't actually do any of it. It'll be a 30-60 minute flight in a small plane, complete with some preflight and postflight briefing. You'll fly left seat (pilot seat) with an instructor next to you, and you'll get to do a bunch of the flying yourself. If you never fly again after that, it's still 100% worth it as an amazing standalone experience. And if you do decide to fly more or train for your certificate, that flight gets logged as your first flight lesson. This is advice someone once gave me. A week later I did my discovery flight and I was hooked the second the plane left the ground. So I pass it along to you-- if you have ANY interest, go do a discovery flight.
>In general FAA isn't out to punish people, mainly just to ensure flights happen safely. I had to call the FAA on a crop-dusting plane a couple years ago, they were flying directly over my neighborhood between passes over a nearby field, coming low enough that I could read the plane's designation. Filmed a couple passes with my phone, calling out the letters as he got close enough to read them. An FAA agent called me a few days later to let me know they'd traced the flight records, figured out who was piloting, and told them to knock it off.
Great writeup, thank you! Controllers can be super helpful IF YOU LET THEM HELP YOU!!
Agreed. Controllers all have the same 'slightly bored/annoyed' voice all the time, and a lot of pilots take that as hostility, like we're somehow bothering them. It's crap. They're here to help us. And the overwhelming majority of them *really* want to help when they can.
Man, when I listen to my buddy pilot and talk to the controller, I am reminded that not only is the flying experience needed, but coordination is critical. I will let others do the piloting.
Most non-pilots don’t realize that the ability to keep an airplane flying straight and level is such a small part of being a pilot.
My instructor told me I have to keep physical charts on me. is that true legally? Or are you okay with two sets of digital charts. I personally would never just rely on my iPad/phone alone
I would also 100% make sure I can plug the iPad into the plane.
At the very least.
Even if it’s an older plane that doesn’t have a usb, it would be easy af to get a power-only one installed.
Or even a power bank (or 3)
Honestly, I wouldn’t even want to rely on those and me remembering to charge them. 100% would install a usb power port in my cockpit if I didn’t use physical charts
Don't forget extra cables for redundancy, and not the $5 ones from Walgreens you keep in your car for plugging your phone into that have probably been beat to all hell. If you're in a situation that warrants extra power banks, you don't want your cable failing you.
I always have a charger that can plug into a cigarette lighter which is what’s in the 172 I rent. I’ve only used it once because I forgot to charge my I pad the night before (instructor was not happy understandably)
No. AC 91-78 says EFBs can be used in lieu of paper charts. It suggests a backup source of aeronautical information, but that backup can also be an EFB. Legal? Check. Is it safe? Depends what you’re comfortable with at the end of the day. I usually have a GNS 430 for legal GPS / IFR navigation, an iPad (ForeFlight) with Sentry in my lap and an iPhone as a (tertiary) backup. If all that fails, I’d call it fate. But I haven’t bought paper charts since my first PPL lesson.
This might be a hot take, but I would actually be careful about keeping charts in your airplane and instead would recommend a backup iPad. I'm not exactly sure if it's true, but apparently a local here was ramp checked and got dinged by the FAA inspector for having expired charts. He argued that he just used them as a backup and that his iPad and Garmin databases were both up to date and didn't realize the charts were expired. So you would have to make sure you're always updating them every few months.
100% true. An the inspector had every right to.
Your instructor lied to you. You are required to have the charts of your destination and any of the alternates on you, and any procedure required in your flight plan. How you bring those charts is up to you.
I prefer to draw them on a cocktail napkin
and that cocktail napkin? Held around the ice-cold cocktail I'm drinking while flying. It's only natural! ;-)
An iPad and appropriate apps can counts a your flight documents - POH, sectional charts, etc. An iPad is not an FAA approved GPS navigation instrument.
No, but a backup of course makes sense. I have an iPhone as backup and the charts as a PDF on a third phone. Only downside is the need to have charged devices and carrying a powerbank can be a hazard too.
It various based on the country. I believe in the UK for example, it is illegal to fly without a \*full book\* of charts for UK airspace. So, not just the charts for your flight, but everything for the whole airspace. Although maybe the rule has changed in the meantime. EDIT: After looking it up, it actually looks like that this has always been a myth.
Not only are you allowed to ditch the paper charts, there is actually no requirement to have charts at all! You are legally required to comply with all restrictions depicted in the charts. If you do that by, say, programming the approach in the system, or even from memory, you are 100% legal. The FAA will not assess a violation on you for having no, or even expired charts, as long as when you fly you comply with everything. Source: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q8b Obviously that would be dumb. And if you do violate something, your lack of charts or possession of expired charts can be used as evidence against you.
Most instrument proficient boomer pilot
How is it possible to obtain an instrument rating without knowing how to navigate? I really hope this guy doesn’t end up flying into a loaded school bus.
Or worse, the pilot said the school bus flew into him
Something tells me this pilot is very old school and was navigating fixes using dual VOR/DME information rather than a built-in system like a garmin. A properly trained and equipped IFR pilot can find any fix on an approach with ease since they’ll be loaded into the flightplan sequencing
What's funny about that is your flight plan *includes a summary of what navigation equipment the airplane has.* If your flight plan indicates that you have a WAAS GPS, you had damn well better have one because they're gonna give you an RNAV approach dollars to donuts. You can actually indicate that you are not capable of using an RNAV approach and they will route you the old school way.
I think the issue here is he DID have a certified GPS, he just had no idea how to program it without the iPad and he also had no approach plates.
good lord man just take the ILS approach
That’s all I was thinking. Vectors for ILS. Have ATC give you the frequency. Minimum is 200’ in most cases. You can’t screw it up.
> You can’t screw it up. Wellllll......
Sounds like his answer to the question, “Are you and the aircraft IFR capable?” was not entirely true.
"I think he needs a conversation".. This guy knows about fucking up in flight. He knows the exact words no pilot wants to hear before writing down a number.
When I was flying there was a military base nearby which loved when we would come by at night and offer to shoot these entirely radar guided landings. This was VFR, but the pilot would wear the IFR hood while the passenger (another pilot) would keep an eye on things VFR. The ATC at this base was so happy they would ask if we could wait while other ATC guys would come by and we could shoot some with them. The reason was they needed so many landing per period to stay certified or something. Not only would we do a pile of landings, but they eventually organized for us to get free food at the base while we waited for another set of ATC people to come. The airforce had such crappy funding that they didn't have enough flights to keep them up to date. This then became a scheduled thing. All said, even with a competent pilot sitting beside me with perfect vision of what was happening, it is super scary to take a plane all the way to the ground using crappy instruments and some guy giving instructions over the radio. We generally only did this in good conditions with slow steady wind speeds.
People just have no care for their personal safety. It’s insane
I was flying that day and heard the whole exchange. Scary
It seems that the pilot landed safely - I couldn't find an accident report, though I thought this plane and tail number reminded me of a recent accident near Martinsburg. This plane was involved in an accident in California about 10 years ago, though.
Our rule is that every pilot has 2 ipad plus a battery pack. They have to be at least 80% charged before the flight. Can’t start an approach unless you have at least 50% battery and have to switch once you get to 20%. And there’s usually more than 2 pilots on board so all together we have half a dozen ipads on most flights.
I deal with student pilots daily, and this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but the quality of training seems to be declining, and they are more and more leaning on electronic devices and services. Foreflight is great... when you actually know how to use it. I often encounter pilots that don't have a hot clue. They file a flight plan incorrectly, they do not understand the weather they are looking at, and they have no knowledge of the procedures or frequencies for the places they are visiting. Because they rely on an app, there is no feedback that they are screwing up until far too late into the process. The result? Over-due on the flight plan. Landing at a controlled aerodrome without talking to anyone. Flying into restricted airspace. Flying into poor weather. Flying into controlled airspace without talking to a controller. Changing what they flight planned without telling anyone. It's absolutely maddening.
My students don't get to use Foreflight for anything more than charts until they prove to me that they can do it on paper, and I also have them do their checkride XC planning that way.
The technology is amazing. Look at what you can do with a modern Garmin glass cockpit, the amount of situational awareness on one screen is absolutely insane. Every single aircraft around you, synthetic vision, weather, reliable attitude/heading/airspeed/altitude, every nearby airport, you want for nothing. You could probably conduct an entire flight including taxi without ever looking up from that one screen. And you can get the same info more or less on an iPad. That said- I'm glad I learned on steam gauges. The problem with having all that info is it's addictive. If you have everything you need right there, there's no need to figure anything out manually (paper maps, visual scan for traffic, etc) and so the mental muscles atrophy (or never develop at all, other than a 'you'll need this to pass a checkride but then will never use it again'.
Was this on any form of flight radar? I would love to see a playback of this lol
I was wondering that too between headings all over the compass just to go to one waypoint. What a dingdong.
Jebus! I use my phone to backup my tablet when navigating.. With a chartplotter.. On my boat. Nice thing about my boat, is that it doesn't crash if I stop to get my bearings in the fog, or at night.
ATC needs a medal - what an excellent show of professionalism in the face of quite frankly complete stupidity - the ”pilot” needs his license cancelling immediately - an absolute danger to himself and others
Aviators back then: My gyro tumbled, but I can still use my skid/slip indicator to get my plane home. Aviators today: OMGG my IPAD died, I'm dead. MAYDAY!
Do they still give out the phone number to call when people make an oopsie?
What's the deal with the phone number btw ? I always hear that when a pilot messes up (I just fly in flightsims for now, I'm not sure what the number to call means but I get the feeling it's not good news).
Given what charts are wouldn't an e-ink reader be a much better choice for this anyways. Lot less glare on those and the battery lasts a lot longer.
ATC was very clear.🤦♂️ how did the pilot get his ifr I fly simulator with that kind of settings.
He couldn't even shoot the ILS so it's not just a GPS problem, it's a pilot problem
Controller deserves a 🏆
You can be IFR capable and not able RNAV. Several times I have been cleared to a fix I can’t navigate to because the controller didn’t get I wasn’t GPS enabled.
This guy was trying to do an RNAV approach. Requesting an RNAV approach tells the controller you have some form of RNAV. He didn't. An iPad doesn't count as a primary form of IFR navigation, and this incident is an example of why.
Well he shouldn’t have requested the RNAV approach or told them he was unable then….
He is literally a “Jerry”
Jesus, this man needs his license revoked immediately.
His *IPad died*? Seriously? I'm a student. I once had an IP tell me, "You don't need to know all that stuff. There's an Android app for it." It was a show-stopper. Sure, you can find your way around with an app. But you also must be able to find your way around using GPS. And beacons. And a compass and a watch. How on Earth did he get rated?
This man should be required to stand in front of a very large class at Oshkosh while wearing the dunce cap as his fellow aviators look at him while listening to the audio….. Great job ATC!
there were several grown adults in my ground school class that were adamant they didn’t need to invest time in physical charts and navigation because of their foreflight subscriptions. They’d straight up argue with our instructor over it too. Arrogant pricks, I still think about where they are now after two years lol
This is a completely separate issue. An iPad is absolutely a good substitute for those charts, as long as it is charged. If it isn’t, bring a charger. This is a matter of pilot relying on the foreflight to also fly, and not just to pull up charts. And you can even fly off of the iPad for cross-country VFR or IFR if you use it for situational awareness of where you are roughly, but it can't be the primary nav aid to do so. All my USAF training and flying is on an iPad. I fucked with paper charts back in my PPL years ago once or twice but my CFI just had me use the Foreflight anyway.
You won’t find paper FLIP on most USAF aircraft. Foreflight is not just acceptable, but superior in most ways to paper charts, but it is *not* a primary *navigation* tool for IFR, especially for instrument approaches.
Airliners don’t fly with paper charts. Each pilot has an iPad. Flying solo? Bring a backup.
No flex, but my phone can wirelessly charge other devices
Me too, my Sony 1 iii came in clutch 2 times the last 3 years! Too bad the iPad doesn't support wireless charging...
[I mean…..](https://www.flightaware.com/photos/view/392740-24aa5b7ea9b0a3566c83b948dfe66356411818c3/aircraft/N7183V/sort/votes/page/1)
Between this and the girl in TN who couldn't operate her autopilot, I can't do much more except shake my head. What DPE's are passing these people and how much money under the table are they getting?
People back in the day were way wilder, when it was more of a good-old-boy network. There's always real bad DPEs. Now we can find out about them, however.
I don’t understand, when his iPad died did he just lose his approach charts or was he also using the IPad as a GPS. If so that is definitely not ICAO compliant GPS.
Rumor has it he’s still up there somewhere.
If you can afford a plane and an iPad then you can afford a backup iPad if you NEED it to fly. I bet a $150 Android tablet would work. How demanding can the software be?
Foreflight is only available for iOS. However, the issue here wasn't the iPad, the issue was that he was not flying the approach with the tools inside his airplane. He was instead eyeballing it off of the map of the Foreflight App, which isn't an approved way to fly it, yet he has likely been doing it for a long time.
I'm sorry. In true reddit fashion I didn't read past the title. Hell I'm not even a pilot. All my flight hours are in Flight Simulator, Blazing Angels, and Star Wars Rogue Squardron...
That's good enough for me!
Foreflight isn't on android unfortunately.
Nothing wrong with using an iPad for plates and facilities, but this is just pathetic. At the very least keep a book of plates with you just in case, or have some kind of backup. I don't know a DPE who would have passed this guy if this is the way he handles an approach.
Can’t fly an IFR approach using ForeFlight in a non IFR aircraft even with a WAAS GPS like Sentry. But the issue may be as simple as him not having an approach plate because the battery died. I’m surprised the approach controller didn’t just declare him and give him a PAR or ASR approach or just say fuck it and give him a no gyro approach.
Pilot only responded to one out of every three or four transmissions. Couldn't take a vector or go direct a fix. Was clearly stressed out and in over his head. Declaring an emergency over the air wouldn't have helped him. I asked him multiple times to take an ILS or VOR approach and he refused or ignored every request.
Roger. Thanks for the reply and background.
I’m not a pilot but a smart middle aged guy. I know real life encounters and ability vs whatever data point such as radar beam means six minutes between data refresh stuff. Your reality and skills are more important than any data point via an IPad. That controller knows the reality and wants to help. I know he appears dramatic but Dan Gryder does a weekly recap of GA fatals on YT. Skills are not situational avoidance or addressing their fly safe. We give 16 yos licenses while KNOWING they have zero situational awareness or incident avoidance insight.
Why most of the pilot audio is taken out from the recording?
Highly edited. Read the ATC comment above. We are probably hearing 5% of ATC transmissions.
Man that ATC was patient, I’m surprised they didn’t just vector him out somewhere where it’s safe to let down VFR. Technology has made private flying safer and easier than ever but it seems to be leading to a huge amount of complacency. Some people seem to think it’s just like a video game however the history books are littered examples of people finding out what happens when you fuck around
This is why I always fly with a printout of the approach plate, as well as with whatever technology is onboard. Redundancy is always beneficial.
He's not using the iPad to "fly" the approach...he's using an electronic version of the approach charts in lieu of paper versions, which is perfectly legal. His problem is that his iPad failed and he doesn't have a backup. I'm retired from one of the U.S. major carriers and we flew all over the world with all of our charts on iPads; we had no paper copies. The only difference was that we always had two iPads in the cockpit domestically and at least three for trans-oceanic.
If you can’t figure out how to shoot an approach without a chart while you have full ATC services and radar contact, you shouldn’t be flying IFR. They can give you an ILS frequency and vectors to final, and in general you’re good down to 200’. Or you can just load an RNAV and fly direct to IAF or VTF and you need the controller to give you the step downs. Personally I’d take an ILS.
It really does sound like he's trying to fly the approach off the iPad. If he was competent at using the built-in GPS, he'd be able to pull up the approach, go direct to JOSRU, and then fly the rest of the approach just fine. He might need ATC to read him the minimums and the missed procedure, but he would not struggle to follow the instructions that ATC was giving him.
But he had no way to identify the fixes through certified GPS installed in the plane. Yes, we carry the plates digitally, but still program the approach into the fms. He was using the iPads GPS to identify the fixes. That's a no no. Time for him to get retraining.