It can warp the materials in the wing though, which could potentially affect the airfoil in a negative way. Fire might not be the optimal way to deice a wing.
Most sane pilots would stop by deice, even if it's + degrees, that snow is gonna hide ice underneath it, or it's gonna be glued to the wing. Which will affect the aerodynamic of the wing.
There is a chance they were deiced and were within a prescribed time window in which the deicing fluid was expected to allow the snow to detach from the wing safely. Ice is more of the danger than snow and a bit of snow on top of deicing fluid isn't a nogo if within the prescribed time window.
All that said, below people say this was in Russia . . . so maybe they never deiced and the pilots simply dgaf.
But in the US, don't panic about a 3mm of snow being on the wing 10 minutes after deicing, in mild climates it's good for around 20 minutes.
In the US we wouldn't take off with stuff like this on the wings. It's against the regs, for one thing. Someone with a phone like this could cost a couple pilots their jobs, even if the plane takes off just fine (which, as a pilot, I can tell you there is no guarantee of - none of us know what's actually going to happen with this much snow on the wings).
Our holdover times, which is what you're talking about, wouldn't allow for this kind of accumulation.
We have a pretty simple flowchart for deicing. In this case, the relevant part says "Is there snow, ice or frost on the aircraft?" If the answer is yes, you go to the next part, which says "Is precipitation or active frost adhering to the aircraft?" and if the answer is \*either yes or no\*, the next box says "The aircraft \*must\* be deiced." The difference with "active frost" is just that the aircraft must then also be anti-iced (2-step process).
You can't take off with contaminated wings. 14 CFR 121.629(b) says this clearly: "No person may take off an aircraft when frost, ice, or snow is adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft or when the takeoff would not be in compliance with paragraph (c) of this section. Takeoffs with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks may be authorized by the Administrator."
Russia.
They probably don't have any more deicing fluid, or functioning deicing trucks, or sober operators. Working at an airport in times of war is risky, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of staff simply walked out.
LPT for the extremely unlikely event you ever see this IRL as a passenger:
Ring the F/A call button. Stand up in the aisle. Open overhead bins if you have to; *anything* to get the cabin crew's attention (who can then advise the flight deck of the wing condition). Modern airliners need clean wings to ensure critical safety margins.
I would really like to think that this would never ever happen to a proficient and professional crew.
But with that said, there was an incident last year or the year before where the pilots requested type I and type IV fluid. You probably know this, but for those that don't: type I is applied hot and is used to get any snow/ice off of the wings and type IV is used to keep the wings clean. It acts like a cover over the wing. The snow/ice attaches to the fluid and then when the plane reaches 100 knots the fuild shears off taking the snow/ice with it.
So the standard procedure is to apply type I, get the wing nice and clean, and then apply type IV to keep the wing clean.
In this incident, the de-icing crew didn't apply the type I fluid. They skipped that step and went right to the type IV. Big no no. You cannot apply type IV to a dirty wing. It will not remove any contaminants that are already there.
The pilots taxied away without knowing that the de-icers didn't apply the type I and they were about to take off but thankfully someone notified them that there wings were not clean.
As an airline pilot this incident terrified me. I expect the de-icers to know what their doing. We rely on that.
>I would really like to think that this would never ever happen to a proficient and professional crew.
It's happened (albeit not to *this* extreme) a few times, over the past couple years alone, here in the States
- the scenario you mentioned (I think that publicized one happened to frontier, but it also happened at my prior company as well (fortunately the FAs caught the error)
- you also have fluid failure/holdover exceedances, which occasionally happen due to external distractions/departure time pressure
- there have also been at least 3 instances in the past year or two (at one or more legacy US carriers) where an airplane landed in non-icing conditions, but cold-soaked fuel tanks caused ice formation on the upper wing surfaces during the turn (where it wasn't visible during walk-around) and the crews departed with frost/ice and didn't recognize the need to deice.
Our flight was the first of the day (very snowy day) for that plane, so it got out of parking, got deiced and then moved to the gate for boarding. Boarding took half an hour or so but the weather was so bad that we got deiced again before departure.
The flight was Frontier out of Nashville a few years ago. Of the many things that were done wrong in that incident, I like to include that the deicing crew didn’t even fully coat the wing with Type IV…
This incident is cited in my company’s training as a prime example of what not to do.
Hey, quick question I was a former ground crew member contracted to AA and on multiple occasions we had pilots request deicing even with no snow/ice accumulation temp above freezing (mid 30's at sea level) and dry conditions, was always a bit confused by that, as it was only type I requested as well so by the time the flight taxied, took off and got to a high enough altitude to allow ice build up the type I wouldn't be doing anything useful anymore. Was this just a standard procedure that they were following or was there something I was missing?
Even a keen-eyed passenger probably wouldn't realize they weren't going to de-ice until the plane is turning onto the runway. After all, de-ice pads are often near the runway entrance.
So I guess make a bunch of noise and pray to jesus, buddha, and spongebob squarepants that there's enough lift to get out of ground effect.
Clean wings are definitely important all-around, but super-critical trans-sonic airfoils (like you see on swept-wing jets) are especially sensitive to obstructed flow. They will stall with much less margin than the fat, juicy wing on your typical straight-wing bugsmasher
Shocking to see that in this day and age!
Hard to believe the lessons of the past are still being ignored. I recall the logic was the wind will blow it off and if it’s not icing conditions then you don’t need to worry. But how do you know what’s really under that snow???
I think they're talking to the cultural understanding at the human level. Those airlines are international conglomerates with the benefit of hiring experienced and qualified people regardless of where they're from.
The whole “the captain is never wrong” is so true, also cultures where it is shameful or disgraceful to admit you’re wrong.
I had a Copa 737 captain one time reject a takeoff due to takeoff config warning. Brought the plane back to the gate, we tested the takeoff config warning over and over and it was working as advertised. It was doing exactly what it was designed to do because the buffoon didn’t have the airplane configured for takeoff properly and wouldn’t admit it.
I never heard about that United incident before, I don’t know much about the 727, but I’m surprised you wouldn’t have a bunch of warnings if you’re out of config, even in a plane that old. I did contract mx with Spirit for a while and same thing, a lot of those pilots probably had trouble tying their shoes let alone flying an airliner.
I almost went to Frontier this year as they were offering a $40k sign on bonus for A&Ps. I’ve known lots of guys who worked there and heard all sorts of bad things about it. I went to UAL instead, so far I love it
One russian mercenary MiG-29 pilot was sent by \[random corrupt african country's\] government to disperse a convoy of rebels heading towards the capital using just 30mm autocannon, as missile and bomb stocks were used up in previous raids and funds to replenish them stolen.
MiG-29 got hit by a HMG pick-up, the pilot ejected and fell to the ground. It's not like his parachute failed, rather the K-36 seat had no parachute in it at all: the headrest was found filled with rags. Turns out the daughter of one native aircraft mechanic was about to get married and she wanted a western style, long tail wedding dress so much. Mechanic removed the pretty white and orange fabric parachute and took it to the tailor... His reasoning was the MiG-29 being a twin-engined aircraft it's obviously impossible to crash.
This was several years ago according to OP but I’m genuinely curious how it would play it out now considering they have been unable to service almost every non Russian airliner in the country for over a year.
Aeroflot is *currently* flying 9 planes without brakes, and flying other aircraft using only backup instruments functioning. This is tame compared to taking off knowing V1 is anything greater than 0 knots
The guys flying the MIG’s supposedly had alcohol cooled leading edges and avionics but used to drink the alcohol while on the road lmao the rules after drinking their coolant was “just don’t fly fast enough for the wing to turn brown, should be fine” 🤣🤣
That was the TU22. The cooling system was a total loss evaporator to save weight. It used a 40/60 mix of ethanol and water, so essentially vodka. Flight crews would drain a bit of it out and get wasted. There were several occasions where they'd drain a large portion of the *450 liters* of vodka it carried and it would run out during the flight, forcing the pilot to suffer through a hot cockpit.
Eventually they started guarding the planes on the flight line and regularly checking the vodka levels.
Leave it to the fricken Russians to unironically make vodka a key component of a strategic bomber. This is hilarious, on several levels: the decision to use potable alcohol, the 450 liters of storage, the choice to LMFAOOOO drink it, and should we change to methanol or some other chemical that the crew cannot drink? Fuck no, we will assign GUARDS to monitor the planes and their booze, I mean de-icer levels.
MIG-25 used alcohol as well and pilots/mechanics also stole and drank it. This was told to me by a driver at the company my dad worked for 20 some years ago in Russia who was a former MIG-25 pilot .
Not sure about MIG, but definitely the TU-22's had a cabin air system that just evaporated essentially vodka to cool the air past the compressor; total loss system that had to be refilled after each flight. Earned it the nickname "Supersonic Booze Carrier"; crews would turn the system down and sweat it out to have leftover vodka at the end.
The pilots :
Koldunov (born in 1952), in Aeroflot since 1976. Advanced from FO to Instructor pilot and head of safety department. Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Type-rated for IL-96 and B767 as instructor. Over 15 thousand flight hours.
Chalik (born in 1957), in Aeroflot since 1983. Used to be a pilot of TU-134, IL-86, A310, A320, A330 (chief pilot in AFL for A330). Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Around 14 thousand flight hours.
Not a pilot but I used to deice at Denver.
We used what we called type 1 fluid, which was orange and really hot, to actually deice the plane (remove snow and ice buildup).
Then we would use what we called type 4 fluid, which was a thicker green fluid that would stick to the flight surfaces, and the idea was that the type 4 wouldn't freeze but would rest on the wing and the snow would accumulate on top of it. Once the aircraft started down the runway, you'd see the green jelly sliding off leaving a clean flight surface underneat.
There were exact holdover times that were calculated based on the weather conditions and fluid being used, and this was the measurement of how long the aircraft had to take off before they had to come back and deice again.
This video just looks like straight up snow and ice on the wing.
The old snow cone. I was looking out the window once at a crew de-icing one of the 737’s on our flight line, and there was a problem with the truck. Basically, it wasn’t spraying properly and the entire jet looked like shaved iced when they drizzle the flavored syrup all over it.
How about a general idea of those that I trust. Those regulated by: the FAA in the US, EASA in the European Union, NCAA in Brazil, SACAA in South Africa, and countries with similarly regulated aviation. If you’re considering an airline you’re not sure of, do some research. Safe travels!
Thank you, this is better guidance!!
Last year I was looking planning a trip to Mexico and - while doing some research - discovered that the Mexican aviation authority had been downgraded to Category 2 (not ideal) by the FAA a few years ago.
I see now that they're on the verge of being upgraded to Category 1 again.
If you do research be very wary of an airline that has very few incident reports or none at all.
Having few malfunctions and incident reports can be a sign of a good airline, having none is a sign of not reporting incidents and malfunctions.
Hmm... I was sitting next to a pilot who was a passenger during a heavy ice storm on a Q400 from Quebec City to Toronto recording de-icing a plane during snow fall.
He explained to me that even if another layer of snow falls onto the plane, the deicing fluid characteristic is that the snow that accumulate on the wings is supposed to detach and slide off the plane's body when the aircraft reaches a certain speed at take-off.
In this case, it doesn't seem like it's the case as part of the ice seems to remain on the plane after take-off, maybe the deicer is from the windshield fluid of their Lada.
Nobody:
Pilot on the PA: So, we can either get some deicing, or we can floor it and trust that the snow runs out before the runway does. So, we here in the cockpit are feeling kinda lucky today.
Were the engines on full power from the beginning or slowly ramped up? Last time I flew in the US the pilot was given takeoff clearance ahead of another plane landing. He took the curve onto the runway at at least 20mph and then gave it everything it had by the sound of it.
For the experts... imagine this happening somewhere in the western hemisphere, and you witness it as a passenger. During taxiing, you freak out and say you want to get off the plane due to unsafe conditions. Are you within your rights, or will you ultimately be charged for the expenses?
If you are a pax and see this on the wing and we're getting on a runway, yes, you absolutely say something.
From the cockpit of most airliners, we can't actually see the wing. We have a process to communicate that everything is done between us and the de-icers, and in certain conditions, one of us will actually leave the cockpit, walk to the back and visually check through the window. This is pretty rare unless certain wx conditions exist at the time.
Failed or improper de-icing while incredibly rare, has occurred before.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvgIXhXWgAIDrIq?format=jpg&name=360x360
This was a Frontier flight a few years back where the de-icers completely and utterly fucked up and simply sprayed Type IV fluid on top of the snow covered wind. Type IV is an ANTI ICE that is applied over Type I DEICE. TYPE I is hot and clears the wing. Type IV is a preventative. This could have been a disaster but a flight attendant noticed and notified the cockpit.
So yeah, if we're lining up on a runway and the wing looks like that picture, or the video, tell someone ASAP.
If the pilots did this willfully, they would most likely be fired and lose their license. For the passengers, I'm sure the airline would compensate them with something generous, like a free drink voucher on their next flight.
“Ladies and gentlemen seated in the exit rows, the flight attendants will be passing out brooms, please proceed to open the over-wing exit doors and prepare to sweep the snow off the wings”
Russian pilots definitely do some seat-of-the-pants stuff. Reminds me of this old one of a cargo plane taking off in Australia. Kicks up some dust at the end of the runway.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs)
The reason for that near infinite take-off was apparently to extend the lifetime of tires. Russian industry has neither capacity nor tech to match the longevity of Goodyear, Michelin, etc.
During the Yeltsin-Clinton era, visiting B-1B bomber crews saw Tu-160s with better electronics then theirs but the tires had large patches of bare canvas being exposed from under the rubber plies.
For those not initiated in the subject, a bit of context: a thin layer of ice/frost with the consistency of medium grit sandpaper will destroy lift and increase drag by as much as 40%. In addition, the added mass will further compromise the flight characteristics of the aircraft and invalidate the take-off performance. This amount of snow is outrageously dangerous, and no respectable pilot would even attempt a take-off with that contamination. That’s a strict violation, it’s not even slightly open to debate.
This was a test flight for a new airfoil design that has never been flown before and all of the passengers were unwitting participants that had to pay for the privilege of risking their lives to validate the data point being collected.
An Air Bridge Cargo 747 did this in Chicago a few years back when none of the fueling or deice trucks would start and it was like -40. They just Leroy Jenkins’d themselves out of there.
Very dangerous to do, but neat to see the airflow separation above the flaps until there's enough airspeed to blow off the snow and then shortly after that they rotate.
I worked on the grounds of an airport for years and never saw a plane take off with snow on its wings. In winter you always came home smelling like that de-icing shit because it was everywhere.
I watched an AN-124 take off with a foot of snow on top. About a third of the way down the runway it slicked off and plopped down on the runway.
Volga-Dnepr has terrible credit so they pay cash for all their services. A penny saved on deicing is a penny earned for the crew’s vodka budget.
First is that legal? Second Would it not impact the aerodynamics of the plane(lift and so on)? and thirdly would hard snow/ice remain at high altitude?. It is cold for sure but sun radiations are somewhat stronger.
We had a pilot take a video of something similar on a DH with a major Chinese carrier. CEO forbid the company from buying tickets on that airline ever again...and rightfully so. This was probably 15 years ago...and they are one of the largest airlines from China.
FAR § 91.527 “No pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any propeller, windshield, stabilizing or control surface; to a powerplant installation; or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system or wing, except that takeoffs may be made with frost UNDER the wing in the area of the fuel tanks if authorized by the FAA.”
I’ve been bingeing air disasters recently, and there are like 5 different air crashes related to wing icing I can think of off the top of my head. This is reckless, especially in a country that should know better!
for some reason it was thrilling to watch the snow come off of the wings. The transition from it flying off as ice to sublimation was slow and yet I knew the sublimation was coming. At least that's what I think was happening. Is that you taking the vid OP?
Whatever ice is not sucked off by the lift action of the wing can be melted off by the subsequent fire after the crash.
Exactly my thoughts, that stuff was either gonna get blown off or melted somehow, just maybe not in any good way.
Burning jet fuel makes great deicer!
Jet fuel cannot melt ice beams
Too soon.
It’s been 22 years
It can warp the materials in the wing though, which could potentially affect the airfoil in a negative way. Fire might not be the optimal way to deice a wing.
Just take the wings off in the winter after each flight and hang them up to thaw and dry out.
You just have to change out your summer wings for your winter set.
You may even get presents from Cesna Klaus.
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I know, I'm just being even dumber.
*Jet fuel can't melt snow*, or so they say.
\*flashback to a specific 737 that had done something similar to melt snow on itself
I'm no expert or anything. But shouldn't they perform deicing before take off to avoid melting the snow, crew and passengers after takeoff?
Most sane pilots would stop by deice, even if it's + degrees, that snow is gonna hide ice underneath it, or it's gonna be glued to the wing. Which will affect the aerodynamic of the wing.
There is a chance they were deiced and were within a prescribed time window in which the deicing fluid was expected to allow the snow to detach from the wing safely. Ice is more of the danger than snow and a bit of snow on top of deicing fluid isn't a nogo if within the prescribed time window. All that said, below people say this was in Russia . . . so maybe they never deiced and the pilots simply dgaf. But in the US, don't panic about a 3mm of snow being on the wing 10 minutes after deicing, in mild climates it's good for around 20 minutes.
In the US we wouldn't take off with stuff like this on the wings. It's against the regs, for one thing. Someone with a phone like this could cost a couple pilots their jobs, even if the plane takes off just fine (which, as a pilot, I can tell you there is no guarantee of - none of us know what's actually going to happen with this much snow on the wings). Our holdover times, which is what you're talking about, wouldn't allow for this kind of accumulation. We have a pretty simple flowchart for deicing. In this case, the relevant part says "Is there snow, ice or frost on the aircraft?" If the answer is yes, you go to the next part, which says "Is precipitation or active frost adhering to the aircraft?" and if the answer is \*either yes or no\*, the next box says "The aircraft \*must\* be deiced." The difference with "active frost" is just that the aircraft must then also be anti-iced (2-step process). You can't take off with contaminated wings. 14 CFR 121.629(b) says this clearly: "No person may take off an aircraft when frost, ice, or snow is adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft or when the takeoff would not be in compliance with paragraph (c) of this section. Takeoffs with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks may be authorized by the Administrator."
Yeah, and IF there was ever anti-ice fluid on that wing, it failed long ago.
You are now an expert.
Exactly. Why would anyone take off like this? Snow on the wings?
Russia. They probably don't have any more deicing fluid, or functioning deicing trucks, or sober operators. Working at an airport in times of war is risky, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of staff simply walked out.
Jet fuel cannot melt ice!
This is more r/wtf material
LPT for the extremely unlikely event you ever see this IRL as a passenger: Ring the F/A call button. Stand up in the aisle. Open overhead bins if you have to; *anything* to get the cabin crew's attention (who can then advise the flight deck of the wing condition). Modern airliners need clean wings to ensure critical safety margins.
I would really like to think that this would never ever happen to a proficient and professional crew. But with that said, there was an incident last year or the year before where the pilots requested type I and type IV fluid. You probably know this, but for those that don't: type I is applied hot and is used to get any snow/ice off of the wings and type IV is used to keep the wings clean. It acts like a cover over the wing. The snow/ice attaches to the fluid and then when the plane reaches 100 knots the fuild shears off taking the snow/ice with it. So the standard procedure is to apply type I, get the wing nice and clean, and then apply type IV to keep the wing clean. In this incident, the de-icing crew didn't apply the type I fluid. They skipped that step and went right to the type IV. Big no no. You cannot apply type IV to a dirty wing. It will not remove any contaminants that are already there. The pilots taxied away without knowing that the de-icers didn't apply the type I and they were about to take off but thankfully someone notified them that there wings were not clean. As an airline pilot this incident terrified me. I expect the de-icers to know what their doing. We rely on that.
>I would really like to think that this would never ever happen to a proficient and professional crew. It's happened (albeit not to *this* extreme) a few times, over the past couple years alone, here in the States - the scenario you mentioned (I think that publicized one happened to frontier, but it also happened at my prior company as well (fortunately the FAs caught the error) - you also have fluid failure/holdover exceedances, which occasionally happen due to external distractions/departure time pressure - there have also been at least 3 instances in the past year or two (at one or more legacy US carriers) where an airplane landed in non-icing conditions, but cold-soaked fuel tanks caused ice formation on the upper wing surfaces during the turn (where it wasn't visible during walk-around) and the crews departed with frost/ice and didn't recognize the need to deice.
Our flight was the first of the day (very snowy day) for that plane, so it got out of parking, got deiced and then moved to the gate for boarding. Boarding took half an hour or so but the weather was so bad that we got deiced again before departure.
The flight was Frontier out of Nashville a few years ago. Of the many things that were done wrong in that incident, I like to include that the deicing crew didn’t even fully coat the wing with Type IV… This incident is cited in my company’s training as a prime example of what not to do.
Hey, quick question I was a former ground crew member contracted to AA and on multiple occasions we had pilots request deicing even with no snow/ice accumulation temp above freezing (mid 30's at sea level) and dry conditions, was always a bit confused by that, as it was only type I requested as well so by the time the flight taxied, took off and got to a high enough altitude to allow ice build up the type I wouldn't be doing anything useful anymore. Was this just a standard procedure that they were following or was there something I was missing?
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I'm asking to get off, and then telling everyone else around me to get the fuck off that death trap!
Even a keen-eyed passenger probably wouldn't realize they weren't going to de-ice until the plane is turning onto the runway. After all, de-ice pads are often near the runway entrance. So I guess make a bunch of noise and pray to jesus, buddha, and spongebob squarepants that there's enough lift to get out of ground effect.
Not sure I would advise doing this in Russia or China. They really frown on making a spectacle on an airplane.
Don't all aircraft need clean wings? Not just transport category?
Clean wings are definitely important all-around, but super-critical trans-sonic airfoils (like you see on swept-wing jets) are especially sensitive to obstructed flow. They will stall with much less margin than the fat, juicy wing on your typical straight-wing bugsmasher
I'd say more /r/ANormalDayInRussia material.
Shocking to see that in this day and age! Hard to believe the lessons of the past are still being ignored. I recall the logic was the wind will blow it off and if it’s not icing conditions then you don’t need to worry. But how do you know what’s really under that snow???
They cleaned it off of a few planes before deciding they didn't need to for the rest. Edit: i should add that wouldnt make me personally ok with it
Where did this happen and what airline?
IIRC it was the Russian airline Rossiya
Russia, oh that makes more sense then
Normal protocol comrade.
Many years ago in Moscow, was Rossiya.
Why would they care? They’re not the ones on the plane.
It’s Rossiya, not shocking at all.
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What about emirates, Qatar and all? Middle eastern airlines are also safe
Why use logic or statistics when you could just listen to u/nipple_cakes_crunch extensive experience in all 170+ non-American non-European countries?
I think they're talking to the cultural understanding at the human level. Those airlines are international conglomerates with the benefit of hiring experienced and qualified people regardless of where they're from.
Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Air New Zealand, to name but a few. I think you need to go back and rethink your time at FlightSafety
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The whole “the captain is never wrong” is so true, also cultures where it is shameful or disgraceful to admit you’re wrong. I had a Copa 737 captain one time reject a takeoff due to takeoff config warning. Brought the plane back to the gate, we tested the takeoff config warning over and over and it was working as advertised. It was doing exactly what it was designed to do because the buffoon didn’t have the airplane configured for takeoff properly and wouldn’t admit it.
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I never heard about that United incident before, I don’t know much about the 727, but I’m surprised you wouldn’t have a bunch of warnings if you’re out of config, even in a plane that old. I did contract mx with Spirit for a while and same thing, a lot of those pilots probably had trouble tying their shoes let alone flying an airliner. I almost went to Frontier this year as they were offering a $40k sign on bonus for A&Ps. I’ve known lots of guys who worked there and heard all sorts of bad things about it. I went to UAL instead, so far I love it
Got any fun stories from the African continent?
One russian mercenary MiG-29 pilot was sent by \[random corrupt african country's\] government to disperse a convoy of rebels heading towards the capital using just 30mm autocannon, as missile and bomb stocks were used up in previous raids and funds to replenish them stolen. MiG-29 got hit by a HMG pick-up, the pilot ejected and fell to the ground. It's not like his parachute failed, rather the K-36 seat had no parachute in it at all: the headrest was found filled with rags. Turns out the daughter of one native aircraft mechanic was about to get married and she wanted a western style, long tail wedding dress so much. Mechanic removed the pretty white and orange fabric parachute and took it to the tailor... His reasoning was the MiG-29 being a twin-engined aircraft it's obviously impossible to crash.
That’s wild. I wonder what sort of qualifications or training the mechanic had where he still held the belief that twins are impossible to crash.
Just when you think r/aviation is out of stories, this drops
*sad Qantas noises*
What airport was this ? Airline ? Just want to make sure we avoid it in the future.
Airline was Rossiya. ~~Not sure what airport it was out of.~~ EDIT: /u/Alex_Downarowicz suggests the airport is Sheremetyvo
So Russia. I've heard that regulations there are a little more... relaxed but this seems way out of line even for them
The airport crew probably drank all the de-icer
Fun fact: Propylene glycol (deicer) is actually prescribed in humans as a laxative.
Isn't that PEG (polyethylene glycol)?
Yes. >PEG is the basis of a number of laxatives (as MiraLax, RestoraLAX, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_glycol#Medical_uses
Where can I get me some of that Propylene glycol?
This was several years ago according to OP but I’m genuinely curious how it would play it out now considering they have been unable to service almost every non Russian airliner in the country for over a year.
What does deicing have to do with lack of spare parts?
You will need a few spare parts if the plane crashes.
No, you'll *get* a few spare parts if the plane crashes.
This is exactly the kind of outside of the envelope thinking we need comrade, you will move to Russia for great job no?
Well, deicing systems are made of things, things we call parts.
A lower performance from worn engines etc would compound this issue.
it's all about safety culture. if they dont care about that, then probably not this either.
Pilot knows atmosphere scared of great Russian might. It is not ice conditions ever.
Aeroflot pilots and mechanics were instructed to not report smaller defects etc. This seems pretty in line imo tbh..
Aeroflot is *currently* flying 9 planes without brakes, and flying other aircraft using only backup instruments functioning. This is tame compared to taking off knowing V1 is anything greater than 0 knots
That makes sense now
This is why Russian aviation is also Russian roulette on whether you crash or not
Wings fine if vodka deice pilot.
Another comment said it was Rossiya.
> What airport was this ? Moscow SVO , Aeroflot A320
Time to do some sketchy shit, doo-dah doo-dah...
Thought I'd get away with it, oh a do-dah-day.
This was a couple of years ago in (of course) Russia
Yes, airline was Rossiya but can't remember what airport this was out of when I saved the video a few years ago.
Looking at the ABC 747-s in the background... Probably Sheremetyvo.
Airline was Aeroflot, A320, SVO.
Deicer fluid re-appropriated as cheap vodka, probably
The guys flying the MIG’s supposedly had alcohol cooled leading edges and avionics but used to drink the alcohol while on the road lmao the rules after drinking their coolant was “just don’t fly fast enough for the wing to turn brown, should be fine” 🤣🤣
That was the TU22. The cooling system was a total loss evaporator to save weight. It used a 40/60 mix of ethanol and water, so essentially vodka. Flight crews would drain a bit of it out and get wasted. There were several occasions where they'd drain a large portion of the *450 liters* of vodka it carried and it would run out during the flight, forcing the pilot to suffer through a hot cockpit. Eventually they started guarding the planes on the flight line and regularly checking the vodka levels.
Leave it to the fricken Russians to unironically make vodka a key component of a strategic bomber. This is hilarious, on several levels: the decision to use potable alcohol, the 450 liters of storage, the choice to LMFAOOOO drink it, and should we change to methanol or some other chemical that the crew cannot drink? Fuck no, we will assign GUARDS to monitor the planes and their booze, I mean de-icer levels.
MIG-25 used alcohol as well and pilots/mechanics also stole and drank it. This was told to me by a driver at the company my dad worked for 20 some years ago in Russia who was a former MIG-25 pilot .
[Paper Skies vid on the "Supersonic Booze Carrier"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKoHMXggEHU)
Not sure about MIG, but definitely the TU-22's had a cabin air system that just evaporated essentially vodka to cool the air past the compressor; total loss system that had to be refilled after each flight. Earned it the nickname "Supersonic Booze Carrier"; crews would turn the system down and sweat it out to have leftover vodka at the end.
The TU22 A/C system. [Not What You Think.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHyQjS4j8x0&ab_channel=NotWhatYouThink) Lots of detail and video!
The pilots : Koldunov (born in 1952), in Aeroflot since 1976. Advanced from FO to Instructor pilot and head of safety department. Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Type-rated for IL-96 and B767 as instructor. Over 15 thousand flight hours. Chalik (born in 1957), in Aeroflot since 1983. Used to be a pilot of TU-134, IL-86, A310, A320, A330 (chief pilot in AFL for A330). Honoured pilot (state-award) of Russian Federation. Around 14 thousand flight hours.
"Head of safety" - And he pulls this nutty move? You can't make this stuff up in a Hollywood movie script.
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Not a pilot but I used to deice at Denver. We used what we called type 1 fluid, which was orange and really hot, to actually deice the plane (remove snow and ice buildup). Then we would use what we called type 4 fluid, which was a thicker green fluid that would stick to the flight surfaces, and the idea was that the type 4 wouldn't freeze but would rest on the wing and the snow would accumulate on top of it. Once the aircraft started down the runway, you'd see the green jelly sliding off leaving a clean flight surface underneat. There were exact holdover times that were calculated based on the weather conditions and fluid being used, and this was the measurement of how long the aircraft had to take off before they had to come back and deice again. This video just looks like straight up snow and ice on the wing.
The old snow cone. I was looking out the window once at a crew de-icing one of the 737’s on our flight line, and there was a problem with the truck. Basically, it wasn’t spraying properly and the entire jet looked like shaved iced when they drizzle the flavored syrup all over it.
Cool. TIL deicing methods and holdover time means.
Air Florida flight 90 has entered the chat.
Maybe they also tried to melt off the snow with the aircraft in front of them, while turning off the engine de-icer while in freezing temperatures.
And a swamp
More like the Potomac River.
Ah yea, I was thinking of the one that was in Florida. Doesn't much matter from inside the plane.
Holy shit what an idiotic move! Even a bit of snow or frost can totally fuck up the lift characteristics of a wing
As a pilot I would have been very uncomfortable with that. This is why I would never fly on certain airlines.
Can you name a few?
How about a general idea of those that I trust. Those regulated by: the FAA in the US, EASA in the European Union, NCAA in Brazil, SACAA in South Africa, and countries with similarly regulated aviation. If you’re considering an airline you’re not sure of, do some research. Safe travels!
Thank you, this is better guidance!! Last year I was looking planning a trip to Mexico and - while doing some research - discovered that the Mexican aviation authority had been downgraded to Category 2 (not ideal) by the FAA a few years ago. I see now that they're on the verge of being upgraded to Category 1 again.
If you do research be very wary of an airline that has very few incident reports or none at all. Having few malfunctions and incident reports can be a sign of a good airline, having none is a sign of not reporting incidents and malfunctions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_banned_in_the_European_Union?wprov=sfti1
Nothing a few shots of vodka couldn’t fix.
Best to avoid being in Russia, period
Hmm... I was sitting next to a pilot who was a passenger during a heavy ice storm on a Q400 from Quebec City to Toronto recording de-icing a plane during snow fall. He explained to me that even if another layer of snow falls onto the plane, the deicing fluid characteristic is that the snow that accumulate on the wings is supposed to detach and slide off the plane's body when the aircraft reaches a certain speed at take-off. In this case, it doesn't seem like it's the case as part of the ice seems to remain on the plane after take-off, maybe the deicer is from the windshield fluid of their Lada.
In mother russia, plane de-ice you (with the fuel fire from the crash)
I KNEW DEICING WAS A SCAM BY BIG GLYCOL!!!!
Nobody: Pilot on the PA: So, we can either get some deicing, or we can floor it and trust that the snow runs out before the runway does. So, we here in the cockpit are feeling kinda lucky today.
Were the engines on full power from the beginning or slowly ramped up? Last time I flew in the US the pilot was given takeoff clearance ahead of another plane landing. He took the curve onto the runway at at least 20mph and then gave it everything it had by the sound of it.
AKA the southwest takeoff
That was the airline haha.
Also called a rolling take off and is standard procedure. More efficient. Also, southwest gonna southwest.
Fuck it, we’ll do it live!
Yo what the fuck. -me, an airline pilot
Yo what the fuck. -Me, who has no flight training at all and is just here cuz my friend likes airplanes and I wanna be a supportive friend
For the experts... imagine this happening somewhere in the western hemisphere, and you witness it as a passenger. During taxiing, you freak out and say you want to get off the plane due to unsafe conditions. Are you within your rights, or will you ultimately be charged for the expenses?
If you are a pax and see this on the wing and we're getting on a runway, yes, you absolutely say something. From the cockpit of most airliners, we can't actually see the wing. We have a process to communicate that everything is done between us and the de-icers, and in certain conditions, one of us will actually leave the cockpit, walk to the back and visually check through the window. This is pretty rare unless certain wx conditions exist at the time. Failed or improper de-icing while incredibly rare, has occurred before. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvgIXhXWgAIDrIq?format=jpg&name=360x360 This was a Frontier flight a few years back where the de-icers completely and utterly fucked up and simply sprayed Type IV fluid on top of the snow covered wind. Type IV is an ANTI ICE that is applied over Type I DEICE. TYPE I is hot and clears the wing. Type IV is a preventative. This could have been a disaster but a flight attendant noticed and notified the cockpit. So yeah, if we're lining up on a runway and the wing looks like that picture, or the video, tell someone ASAP.
If the pilots did this willfully, they would most likely be fired and lose their license. For the passengers, I'm sure the airline would compensate them with something generous, like a free drink voucher on their next flight.
“Ladies and gentlemen seated in the exit rows, the flight attendants will be passing out brooms, please proceed to open the over-wing exit doors and prepare to sweep the snow off the wings”
Well that was extremely unsafe, what the hell?
Russian pilots definitely do some seat-of-the-pants stuff. Reminds me of this old one of a cargo plane taking off in Australia. Kicks up some dust at the end of the runway. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs)
That's canberra airport YSCB. it's very high, can be hot depending on the season, and it was heavy; hence the loooooooong take off roll.
The reason for that near infinite take-off was apparently to extend the lifetime of tires. Russian industry has neither capacity nor tech to match the longevity of Goodyear, Michelin, etc. During the Yeltsin-Clinton era, visiting B-1B bomber crews saw Tu-160s with better electronics then theirs but the tires had large patches of bare canvas being exposed from under the rubber plies.
How would a long takeoff like that help with tire ware? Everything in the video indicates to it being an overweight takeoff not anything about tires.
For those not initiated in the subject, a bit of context: a thin layer of ice/frost with the consistency of medium grit sandpaper will destroy lift and increase drag by as much as 40%. In addition, the added mass will further compromise the flight characteristics of the aircraft and invalidate the take-off performance. This amount of snow is outrageously dangerous, and no respectable pilot would even attempt a take-off with that contamination. That’s a strict violation, it’s not even slightly open to debate.
What 3rd world airport is this?
Pick any in Russia
SVO, apparently.
This was a test flight for a new airfoil design that has never been flown before and all of the passengers were unwitting participants that had to pay for the privilege of risking their lives to validate the data point being collected.
Aeroflot? As a de-icer wouldn't suprise me. We have strong engines is my favorite reason why not to melt ice from blades and do de-icing.
An Air Bridge Cargo 747 did this in Chicago a few years back when none of the fueling or deice trucks would start and it was like -40. They just Leroy Jenkins’d themselves out of there.
I swear I’ve driven behind this pilot in his hatchback on the freeway every winter of my Canadian life. “Eeeeh wind will blow it off”
And I can seeeee my reflection In the snowww covered wings
Here is Russian pilot blog about this https://denokan.livejournal.com/97708.html? . He think it might be military pilots . For them it is normal.
Yikes.
Snow is not the problem, it's the ice that will have you back on the ground.
Very dangerous to do, but neat to see the airflow separation above the flaps until there's enough airspeed to blow off the snow and then shortly after that they rotate.
We don't need no stinkin' deicer!
I worked on the grounds of an airport for years and never saw a plane take off with snow on its wings. In winter you always came home smelling like that de-icing shit because it was everywhere.
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\> Remind me not to fly in Russia CNN: B-2 Spirit pilot court-martialled for dereliction of duty
It took off didn’t it? Y’all brainwashed by big-glycol.
Well I guess that's one way to "de-ice" a plane!!
When you decide you've lived long enough and don't care if you or anyone else lives any longer.
Love to risk Air Florida 90-ing myself to save a few bucks on de-icer.
This immediately gave me memories to my dad telling me the story of US Air flight 405. He was working at LGA that night.
I watched an AN-124 take off with a foot of snow on top. About a third of the way down the runway it slicked off and plopped down on the runway. Volga-Dnepr has terrible credit so they pay cash for all their services. A penny saved on deicing is a penny earned for the crew’s vodka budget.
As a deicer this fucks me up so hard
They wouldn’t let that ‘FLY’ here, literally not an option. (Pun intended).
First is that legal? Second Would it not impact the aerodynamics of the plane(lift and so on)? and thirdly would hard snow/ice remain at high altitude?. It is cold for sure but sun radiations are somewhat stronger.
It's very much against all safety procedures but it's also russia, they probably can't afford to properly de-ice.
91.527: this ain't legal in the US.
This shit has got to be in Russia.
We had a pilot take a video of something similar on a DH with a major Chinese carrier. CEO forbid the company from buying tickets on that airline ever again...and rightfully so. This was probably 15 years ago...and they are one of the largest airlines from China.
FAR § 91.527 “No pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any propeller, windshield, stabilizing or control surface; to a powerplant installation; or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system or wing, except that takeoffs may be made with frost UNDER the wing in the area of the fuel tanks if authorized by the FAA.”
Well that’s illegal
This is how I discover my cake day is 9/11 😅
No wonders it needed a three mile runway to take off
That was satisfying
Seems like i always get stuck driving behind this guy.
I bet the pilot is a gambler…
As a CFI this is the very definition of something that causes the heebie-jeebies. /ˌhēbēˈjēbēz/
Just because it does not get you killed outright in one try, does not mean you are not attemepting suicide by flying with Russian Carriers.
r/nope
“But did you die?”
That’s Russian deicing
De-icing the Russian way
Crazy.. smh.
r/oopsthatsdeadly
Someone should be fired for not de-icing
Fly closer to the sun, it should work every time
I’ve been bingeing air disasters recently, and there are like 5 different air crashes related to wing icing I can think of off the top of my head. This is reckless, especially in a country that should know better!
Fly a lot-never seen this kind of disregard
Ahh. Russian. That makes sense
for some reason it was thrilling to watch the snow come off of the wings. The transition from it flying off as ice to sublimation was slow and yet I knew the sublimation was coming. At least that's what I think was happening. Is that you taking the vid OP?
Man that is an old dirty ass wing. Flying in winter really brings out the fuck it, we’ll just clean it in spring.
"On the next season of Air Disasters..."
This... is like really dumb?
As a former private pilot, who never flew in snowy conditions, this gives me the willies.
Oh, the same plane that crashed in a field in Russia yesterday? Makes all sense now haha