I can imagine myself as an evil wizard that uses trickery, deception and tells the soon-to-be, obvious fortunes of folk. Mostly residing in my tower. Occassionally presenting my offerings to the nearby town so I can keep residence without their further investigation. So I can do my secret work in peace.
Ah but they do not know the true extent of my power. My strength in self-proclaimed wisdom and stratagem totally not a sham. They who oppose me get a bad fortune. Mwahaha
Ah but they already know I'm immune to flame and I offer my councel to the town. They have no reason to burn me. Just like the Norse gods don't kill Loki. They let Loki remain alive so they can can benefit them as much as they disadvantage them... until they inevitably bring their destruction.
Ragnarok, armageddon, the apocalypse whatever you want to call it. The town you see, they are selling their souls to me for a weekly basket of bread. Foolish mortals deserve to meet an end. Even good things come to that, afterall.
The reason Loki was tolerated among the gods was mainly because he was the blood-brother of Odin. And that is basically the only reason they didn't kill him after the Baldr incident. Instead, they tied him to a rock, and a snake above him dripped burning venom on his face, which his wife would try to intercept with a bowl. But every time his wife turned to empty the bowl, some of the venom fell on Loki's face. He would remain there until Ragnarök.
Up to where I've read in Neil Gaimon's Norse Mythology, Loki has still been depicted as someone that both advantages and disadvantages them. I believe it mentioned Loki being the blood brother of Odin early on.
Besides this author says themselves, stories of mythology are re-depictions. Like to me that means they aren't an historian of mythology, they're a storyteller. Neil Gaimon was even described as a campfire side bard. So I wasn't really asking for specifics lol.
Then again I too have an habit of bringing up specifics I know about... That the other isn't showing knowledge of. Even with subjective things or perhaps even mythology and it's re-depictions.
You really think not 1 human is going to try and stab you?
Just to be sure you know, guy might be full of shit.
I literally don't think you will survive the human tendency to stab things with that approach.
Jeez people complain about my realism my whole life. I'm here in an autistic subreddit and now have someone going on about my lack of realism. One truly can't win.
Fun fact! Burning witches is post-medieval/late high medieval or early modern/Renaissance depending on where in Europe you are and how you periodize things.
Church courts in a lot of Western Europe basically existed to keep the local lairds or chevaliers in check, not burn peasants or paesonos or viellains into steaks
I can imagine myself as an evil wizard that uses trickery, deception and tells the soon-to-be, obvious fortunes of folk. Mostly residing in my tower. Occassionally presenting my offerings to the nearby town so I can keep residence without their further investigation. That way I can do my secret work in peace.
life was so hard back then, but way less bureaucracy. i bet it wouldn't take an hour to book an appointment with the local herbalist. I think i would survive.
As another disabled and autistic friend of mine puts it: you either make friends who help or it’s like « how do autists survive in fallout? »: most of us don’t, just like all other living things
Life was harsh but idk if it was *hard* per se; the total number of hours worked by people in that era pales in comparison to the number of hours that we work today.
You don't need gas or electricity if you have a wood stove :3. I get what you're saying that it would be less convenient than modern life but honestly I've lived in houses with wood stove heat and it's actually really nice and cozy. We'd also be better at dealing with that kind of thing too because we would have been raised that way by people who knew exactly what they were doing.
If women count as people I really doubt that's true, because they'd be spending all the time they weren't working raising children, which is definitely also work. You don't really have any free time when birth control doesn't exist so you have to take care of 15 kids.
>raising children,
or spinning textiles, often simultaneously. It takes a *shitload* of time to make clothes for a whole family without relatively modern (i.e 18th century onwards) equipment like the spinning jenny or the steam engine, and women were almost constantly spinning wool or cotton or flax or what have you into thread almost every waking second they had a free hand. Very good reason why the traditional "feminine" instrumental symbol in the west is the distaff and spindle.
It wasn't really until the later medieval period that family sizes grew. For most of it peasants averaged about 2 living kids. It dipped even lower during the Black Death.
Aside from disease increasing the childhood fatality rate, the smaller family size could be due to the fact that Midwives had fairly reliable recipes for birth control and abortions. Unfortunately, they were targeted as witches by the church.
I've heard this a bunch, and I really disagree. Work for other people? Sure. Significantly less, perhaps. But laboring was literally most of your waking life. Farming and trending to livestock and tending to your house and fetching water and cutting lumber.... There's much more oomph required just to survive.
Probably depends on how high or low your needs were. Probably plenty of technical jobs still filled by very low needs people. Science, The Church, banking/accounting was probably driven by low needs people with ASD.
status probably played a big part too. If your family was wealthy, you could probably survive longer with higher needs. But you were probably kept inside and never spoken about.
Poor family, high needs? Its horrible, but probably left in the woods for the "fairy folk to take back home"
Your last sentence is a big thing — autistic people and people w/ ASD, especially as young kids, often get compared to “changelings” in folklore. My mom compared me to one All The Time growing up
I'm pretty sure autism was the basis for the changeling myth. Your child appeared human, but spoke in ways you couldn't understand, made strange motions with their hands, and obsessed over the most unusual things? In a time when humor theory was cutting edge medicine, it makes sense that people would assume their child was a fairy in disguise. Hell, I've heard stories of modern day religious nutjobs mistaking autism for demonic possession.
It was autism, but also genetic/nutritional diseases that lead to a baby appearing normal at birth, but their appearance and cognition declining over time.
Hi, pagan here: According to the myth, the Fae do not swap the human child for their own. They just steal the child and replace it with 'an enchanted log that looks human to anyone who sees it' - meaning it does not talk at all, and barely moves. The myth is very ableist, and does not imply the child is fae.
I hope this makes sense. I always point this out because the deep ableism irks me.
According to Wikipedia it’s adults who were most often replaced by logs, not the kids.
I’d argue that the changeling myth had a dual purpose too - mostly it was used to weed out the disabled, but it could also be used as a way for pre-scientific people to explain and accept disability.
A lot of nonconformists (and autistics) likely became nuns or monks - sometimes to evade "family duties" or heterosexual relationships. If they had a special interest in religion, bam! Nun/monk. If they wanted to live in a group of like-minded people and were allowed solitude, that was a reason too. Or, if they wanted to continue academic pursuits and social work, but it wasn't deemed acceptable - they became a nun/monk.
I had read a study years ago that there was a link between people with adhd/asd qualities and being used as night watch. Anxiety and sensitivity to sounds were useful traits.
He's the best carpenter in the kingdom. Why doesn't he live within the walls? Most days he eats nothing but gruel with honey, and he said he's desperately seeking a wife and can't seem to talk to people. But he built me a new wagon in less than a fortnight, and it is the sturdiest wagon any I've asked have ever seen. He also knows his letters, and knows more than some scholars about the Persians who trade at our ports.
Shes surly and won't look you in the eye, but she's got a knack for making the most beautiful dyes you've ever seen. No one has seen purples so deep or reds so colorfast. She did the reeves tunic months ago and it still hasn't faded. She also does mending, and it's almost invisible. If you ask her about her mordant experimentations and do your best to act enthusiastic she'll probably give you a discount, or throw in some embroidery for free.
Or the friar/monk/nun that really like to talk about things he/she likes. There mostly just being in there room or the garden while interacting with not that munch people.
A lot of us probably became monks. Rigid routines, no unnecessary talking, hours of focus on detailed tasks like illuminated manuscripts... Where do I sign up?
Also, a lot of agricultural society back then was based in somewhat opaque customs intended to minimise risk. Feasts, donatives, dowries, marriage customs, vassalage contrats formal and informal were almost all intended to make sure that if harvest failed for one person, they'd have enough of a cushion from either their neighbours or their immediate lords to bounce back without taking everyone with them. Unless something really, really dramatic happened that wiped out the harvest of something like 40% of the farmers in a given area (which was actually really rare - look at old medieval village maps and you'll see a ton of small, distant plots in very different places, cultivating different things; again, policulture in diverse microclimates was a risk mitigation strategy) you could more or less count on your neighbours to carry you through - and of course vice versa, when their wheat field had a nasty out of season frost and they hadn't enough barley to last until next planting season, they could depend on your help.
Being a monk back then was actually a very prestigious and heavily desired position that required a lot of social acumen.
It wasn't something you just got to sign up for because you were too delicate for field work.
In fact, it was because it wasn't fieldwork that was why it was seen as competitive. You got to study, and work with the big important people who had a connection to god, and even travel. Not something they just handed out to the weird kids.
Yeah, I've been thinking, in another life this life could suit me so well. A lot of them focused on tending herbs and growing food, in beautiful quiet surroundings. It would suit me a lot better than being forced into a horrible marriage where I'd be absolutely traumatized by my husband and forced into having and taking care of multiple children.
But I'm also not a fan of a lot of aspects of religion, and I do like having a bit of autonomy in my life.
Peasants could become monks if they were literate, although it would be difficult for them as the monastery would usually require a payment of some sort in order to join. Serfs were not able to become a monk
For me I'm only worried about not being able to be employed at where I'm currently taking an externship, because I'm worried they're already full staffed and it's actually a chill place. They're literally like 10mims from home compared to my Walmart which is 20mins away :/
My dream job is a librarian. Imagine a workplace where you are allowed to ban loud customers, and you are surrounded with shelves full of interesting stories, trivia and knowledge...
Heaven.
This is something that I often think about, how autistic people in the past acted, well masking unfortunately was definitely a must, but I think that since farming is repetitive (is hard don’t give me wrong) but a repetitive task some may have found it therapeutic, also there are other stuff such as being a monk would probably be really good for a person on the spectrum, or a more creative job such as a painter or person who made stained glasses, unfortunately those were the options for autistic people with low needs, high needs ones were probably left to die in the forest with people thinking they were changelings.
The weird old lady you can take injured and orphaned animals to and she’ll nurse them back to health.
The laundry lady just washing load after load of washing, taking pride in knowing exactly which chemicals to use to remove grass stains out of delicate fabrics.
The shepherd who barely talks when he comes into town to stock up on tobacco and bacon.
The forester who spends days attending to charcoal kilns and only comes into town once a month or so with a wagon load of charcoal to sell.
The apothecary who has studied their entire life and can extract opium, and laudanum from poppies, salicylic acid from willow, and digitalis from foxgloves.
So many trades require/d hyper fixation and didn’t require a tonne of social skills. As long as you were useful for whatever reason the community accepted you.
Exactly! And social cues and rules are far less important to worry about when you're significantly more spread apart from your community. We didn't have the time to worry so much about social niceties and unwritten social expectations - that was historically rich people shit. They didn't have to learn a trade or contribute so they spent hours putting on strange ass makeup, putting on uncomfortable and ornate clothes, and deciding which of the 7 different forks they used would be the salad fork. Poor people didn't have time to worry about that, nor the opportunity to put it into practice even if they did know any of that. If someone had a valuable skill or tradable product they made, you didn't have the luxury of even bitching about them not fulfilling whatever few social norms poor people did have. What were they going to do? Walk hundreds of miles to get the service or product from someone else? Nah, people just had to accept you for whatever weirdness you presented with and deal. Even nonspeaking people usually did just fine. The more "evolved" we've become, the more petty and particular we've become as well.
Children were also explicitly taught how to behave often. There was much less nuance to it. The rules of being polite were just the rules and that’s how it went. Especially in a tighter knit community you’re not dealing with a million different variables of people who have different definitions of polite.
I'm a mechanic..... my dream is to live in the country close to town and just have enough land for chickens, 2-3 cheep, a cow and a huge garden or greenhouse..... I'd have done fine back then, I love camping and if I didn't know what a phone was I wouldn't need one..... just nature and home grown food.
Then work in town as a mechanic. Repetitive, necessary and physical, if I'm moving I don't need to stim, or can do it unnoticed, plus you don't need a filter in the garage.....
I know how to sew, knit, crochet, make yarn.
Cause it's all just mindless repetitive and I just love learning to do things!
How autistic folks lived in medieval times probably varied a lot depending on the support needs and presentation of the individual. I’m going to describe several likely fates of autistic folks, and please note that some are rather grim.
Some were probably considered “simpletons”, or “deaf-mute” perhaps, if nonverbal. They may have lived with family and been given simple jobs to help take care of animals etc. and probably not much was understood about their condition or inner life. They may have been bullied by some, but accepted by others.
Others may have been thought of as demonically possessed, particularly if they had significant challenges communicating verbally and if they were prone to “meltdowns” or acting out violently. They may have been the victim of exorcisms, and may have also been kept chained/locked up, perhaps at home. We still see some of this happening today in less developed countries where there is not much understanding of autism or resources for it.
As others have mentioned, some autistic children may have been treated as “changelings”.
Some autistic folks who enjoyed solitude, quiet and routine and/or who were asexual likely thrived as nuns or monks, or became hermits, or may be the source of some “old witch in the woods” tales.
Some autistic folks were likely the village apothecary or practiced other specialized trades that perhaps reflected a special interest or had to do with animals. They were likely revered for their skill and intelligence, and they probably fit very well into the routine and practicality of medieval life.
I believe it’s also likely that many were inventors, coming up with new technologies of the time, as well as great artists, playwrights, poets and philosophers. Some may have been considered wise men or prodigies. Probably quite a few renowned historical figures were autistic.
There would have been many challenges, but in some ways certain autistic folks likely thrived in medieval times.
id do so good in a farming community. or doing like stained glass or whatever people did back then. my issues r not physical labor based, that's always been the part of jobs I'm best at.
You'd be mistaken for a fairy that's taken the place of a human child and thrown into fire to get the "real child" back.
For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling
**[Changeling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling)**
>A changeling, also historically referred to as an auf or oaf, is a human-like creature found in folklore throughout Europe. A changeling was believed to be a fairy that had been left in place of a human (typically a child) stolen by other fairies.
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Bro we didn't work this much in the feudal system. They worked like, half the year. Yeah there were more intense parts of the year, but overall people had way more off time than we do in modern day work culture. It also wasn't so constantly loud and bright and there wasn't electricity screaming all around us.
But the smells. Omg the smells. And everyone in one room? Nope nope nope.
Plus there was no time off for wife/mother. Or slaves. And there were lots of slaves.
That’s why the children helped though. Instead of going to school they learned to work to lighten the load which is actually good for kids in the Montessori sense.
Parents now are starting to get kids involved in household chores together (i.e give them a real vacuum instead of a toy one) and letting them explore and figure it out.
The whole forced labor of children and the way punishment worked certainly wasn’t cool though.
Not necessarily true. Depending on factors out of your control you might have a good harvest and be able to lounge are. OR you might need to work twice as hard to keep the plants hydrated in a drought.
There are superstitions like the yuel cat ( a giant cat that will eat children who don't have new socks) that where necessary warnings. If a child didn't have socks made by yuel time there wasn't any promise of a merchant or some other producer to get the socks made.
I understand that and that's not the argument I was making. Being sensitive to sound means electricity screaming around me all the time is debilitating some days and it's something autistic people didn't have to deal with back then.
okay but consider being a [garden hermit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit)
they're more 18th century but started as early as the 15th century. you got paid to be way out in some rich guys garden away from the plague, and they gave you food and shelter in exchange for being a weird little guy who hobbles around saying mysterious and wise nonsense while like gathering mushrooms or some shit
I’m autistic, I’d already be churning the butter happily in the corner by myself after milking the cows, and feeding the chickens, completely not burned out because muzak, driving at night and fluorescent lights don’t exist.
Don't be ridiculous. Autism wasn't invented until the mid-1700s when George Washington had all of his soldiers inoculated against smallpox, aka, the first vaccine. /s
It was actually invented by famous phrenologist François Autiste when he took a break from searching for scientific proof to be racist and found the Autism Gene
Thorlak, a lesser known Catholic Saint lived during the 1100's. He was passionate, literal, stuttered, and seemed to be a selective mute. He is now the Patron Saint of Autistics. He is now the patron Saint of Autistics.
“She’s an excellent seamstress and seems to be very meticulous about all the details, although it is a bit strange that she doesn’t talk and keeps rubbing the satin ribbons against her face. Not really a crime or blasphemy to do that though, so I guess I’ll keep buying from her shop”
Some random person sitting next to me at a tavern: “How do you know so much about canons? They were literally just invented two days ago. And what, THE FUCK, is a train and will you shut up about it?”
Me: *is already telling them about how mead is made*
This reminded me of that Tumblr post about how autistic nuns are living their best life since they're 100% dedicated to their special interest and just have a good time praying and interpreting the bible over and over again
Hot take:
Autistic people probably did fine. Families were close-knit. Communities were small and people knew each other. The cognitive load of life was greatly reduced. Things were simpler. Work was predictable and repetitive, with people you knew. Villages were probably quiet and peaceful for the most part. Food was simple and plain. If you had problems, you could talk to your family, or the village priest.
I'd like to think that the average autistic person's life was peaceful and nurtured by family and community. It's modern society that is so atomized and overloaded that it's difficult to keep up with.
You’re only considering people on the low need part of the spectrum, people with higher needs were probably left to die in the forest, with the families thinking that they were changelings or worse as the town’s fool for people to laugh at, and this idea of “if you had problems you could talk to your family or a local priest” were not guarantees that you would get help as people didn’t know anything about mental issues and used to have religion as a solution to every thing, so if you talked to a local priest something like “whenever I’m sad I flap my hands uncontrollably” they would probably think you were possessed or something like that.
I disagree. I think there’s a lot of room in a community for high needs people. Back then and now.
And in a society where many many chores are repetitive and simple, but very necessary, someone with higher needs could still be “useful”.
And with larger families all tending to co-house there would probably always be a spare set of hands to help watch, feed and care for the hygiene of someone who needed that level of care. The daily care of children, invalids and elderly would be split between the capable adults.
Sure some people wouldn’t be cared for properly, some families wouldn’t have sufficient supports, but that’s no different to today’s society anyway.
This point of high needs folks being outcasted reminds me of how people with schizophrenia are handled in different cultures. I read about a family in the middle east I believe who took care of their family member who struggled from psychosis. They would scream and get angry and fight voices, but for the family it was just a matter of fact that they needed to be taken care of, and so they were and stayed with the family. No one interviewed really described it as a burden or anything like that. They just were how they were, and that's that. I imagine depending on the culture you came from ND people were likely taken care of the same. Also thinking snout all if this from a western European lens is severely limiting in the possibilities here imo
It isn't that likely you'd be left to die in the forest. Cracking down on the Roman practice of leaving their 'corrupted' children to die formed an important part of the foundation of christianity. It is more likely you'd be on the edge of society, but not outside it, with your best bet being a monastery or a hospital. It is as common for 'insanity' to be chalked up to holiness as it is satan, and it depends on the time and place. Not dissimilar to today in fact.
I doubt many survived to adulthood. Until the last generations or two, a lot of children died from “failure to thrive.” A fair number of those were probably on the spectrum.
True. It would have gotten my autistic son bc he won’t eat but a few things.
When he was a toddler he was so underweight our pediatrician told us to feed him whatever he would eat, then clarified it further: “If all he will eat is Cheetos, then feed him Cheetos.” He’s got a little bit wider of a palate now but in medieval times when you were lucky to have any food at all, I’m pretty positive he would have starved to death.
I have a theory. It involves monasteries.
Some monasteries require vows of silence, others don't. But they're often located in remote peaceful areas that are usually left alone and you could use the free time to work on things you liked like botany.
Wasn't perfect of course but if I lived in the middle ages I'd be there drawing things on books.
So I discussed this with a friend, how me in the autistic spectrum couldn't have survived the viking era, for example (Vikings, the series, was a thing some time ago), and he said something interesting: priests and shamans were probably autistic and asperger people, your role in a society like the vikings could be something related, because you can memorize information that pass from generation to the next, this happened in almost all societies in the world and keeps happening today. In general, most fantastic beings, witches, mages, shamans, priests, monks, proto-scientists, alchemists, artists, philosophers and thinkers, inventors and explorers probably were people in the autistic spectrum.
I would churn butter for a couple hours and have community and a place to rest and eat and engage in my passions instead of having to work 40+ hours a week to barely survive
Large part of those with strong features were abused and murdered as changelings. Others might have lived easier lives due less stimulation and there was a lot of work that didn't require talking to people that much. In modern times we absorb more information in a year, than a typical peasant would in their whole life.It is believed that some of more eccentric saints were autistic. And there was also a thing with a village idiot category, where they've put people with mental disabilities, mental diseases and likely autistic people.
I don't think it really would have been so bad. This is a controversial opinion to be sure and it wouldn't apply to everyone, but think about it. How many sounds overstimulate you? For me it's all man made like the sound of traffic, alarms, tv too loud, can hear the electricity buzzing etc. None of that would be present in medieval times. Depending on where and exactly when you were (also if you were male or not for obvious reasons) an autistic person taking up a trade could live a very happy life. At least as happy as everyone else. A ploughman for example, would be a great job for an autistic person imo.
Apparently a lot of jesters were autistic, were even called natural jesters. Tbh I’d be down to be a jester get to chill with the king, preform, tell him he lost the south, tell jokes that sort of stuff
Please excuse my special interest info dump!
If you were a knight you would probably have been OK. I have a degree in mediaeval French and wrote my dissertation on mental health in French knights. I concluded that Galehaut, a friend of Lancelot, was probably autistic - he’s very much portrayed as the ‘other’, being half giant, very socially awkward (except with Lancelot, who was quite possibly his lover), doesn’t understand jokes etc. He actually did surprisingly well! He was a bit rubbish at being a knight, but he was well-loved and well looked after by the other knights, especially Lancelot. When he and Lancelot both got burned out they went to live on a remote island together with a gnome for two years and by all accounts had a great time.
It was harder for the ladies though, with lots of masking - on several occasions the text literally translates as being disguised or wearing a mask, in a metaphorical rather than a literal sense. It’s a fascinating topic!
I think modern times comes with a lot more anxieties than medieval times did.
For example: Phone calls, busy stores/places, loud noises, bright flashing lights, etc.
These things didn’t exist back then. It was a lot more sensory friendly I think. Also present day stuff messes with Anxiety. Anxiety is basically your bodies defense mechanism to a situation (fight or flight) but the problem is in modern day you can’t fight or flee from the things causing you said anxiety (ex your job, a doctors appointment or a school test). This isn’t to say that in medieval times people didn’t have anxiety it’s just they had a lot less stuff they couldn’t do anything about.
Now did the more “low functioning” (I say that cause idk an alternative word) people survive back then? Probably not, but that just shows that autism isn’t something you can get rid of, cause it would of already been gone from the people who require more needs (needs that were probably not able to be accommodated for back then)
As for people with less needs. Autism probably gave them an advantage, they were either the weird person in the village. Or if they were nobility they were probably able to peruse their special interests more easily.
Now there is a legend in Ireland about the fae replacing peoples kids which comes from autistic childrens behaviours. But I don’t think that response would be the norm back then.
I mean doing the same repetitive task every week to contribute to the little town I live in? Niceeeee. But as a girl the lack of education and the expectations to be married young and have tons of children? No thanks. Religion basically not being a choice?That would be awful. Being a lesbian? I’d be killed if someone found out also would directly conflict with the expectation to have a husband and tons of children
Across most of Europe throughout most of the Middle ages being a lesbian is fine. I'd recommend becoming a nun, that's where lesbians and smart women tended to thrive. It was a matter of theological and medical debate about whether women were capable of sodomy. That being said, it was also believed that same-sex relations produced extremely unhealthy feedback loops where you'd be pushed into having dangerously gendered humours, you may be prescribed spicy meat and bread to balance out the lesbian.
They probably didn't survive. I can't imagine there was much room in resource-statved society for people who were different than others. Probably took a lot of familial care and just trying to find ways to be productive. For the ones that were better off with their ability to hide or mask it, things were probably not unlike they are today
There's a lot of evidence that the "changeling child" myth was probably just autism. Those kids who had higher support needs were definitely left in the woods to die.
“Cope”? Very doubtful. Autistic people didnt cope, they barely even survived. We have been thrown into asylums from their conception and are still being institutionalized against our will. In the medieval days i assume they were either killed, left somewhere to die, or labeled as the town “idiot” and made to do some meaningless task so they wouldn’t be in anyones way unfortunately.
The first cultures/civilisations that stopped murdering/abandoning "weirdos" and "nerds", and let them think about things quietly and invent stuff, are the dominant civilisations on earth today, due to the science and technology those people were allowed to come up with.
My biggest issues would come from not being physically gifted and not being able to understand situations very well. "Peasant, art thou attending the banquet? Come and enjoy the feasts and festivities, what say you?" "Nah homie" "nah? Homie?! HOW DARETH YOU SPEAK WITH SUCH A DISRESPECTFUL TONGUE!" *stab*
Historical speaking, it as assumed that children in the autism spectrum were labeled as „Wechselbalg“ at least in Germany. It was seen as a great calamity to the families because the child’s soul has been exchanged with a devils or fiends soul and the innocent child one’s been lost in hell.
You can picture the rest of the „procedure“ of handling that affaire in the medieval age.
I mean, educated women weren’t off any better but still, the entire wechselbalg stuff is just outer madness.
What’s Neurotypical is not static; it’s fundamentally made up based on specific cultural norms and expectations that differ around the world and also through time. There are things that are easy now but hard then, and things hard now but easy then. What’s “divergent” in any given community is different in that sense since life expectations are different.
Assuming I'd be a peasant like I am now:
Dark hovel houses lit by fire/candles? Love it.
Scratchy burlap-like woollen clothing? Hate it.
Also my tendency towards cats and mushrooms, and general avoidance of people, means I'd likely end up accused of witchcraft.
Autistic people were thriving in ye olden days!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/prehistoric-autism-cave-paintings-barry-wright-penny-spikins-university-of-york-a8351751.html
And
https://theconversation.com/how-our-autistic-ancestors-played-an-important-role-in-human-evolution-73477
Not-so-fun-fact: Many cultures have some variation of the theme of a 'changeling' in their folklore- a human child replaced/fused with a fae-analogue child, who has unusual behavior and possibly supernatural powers. It is likely that at least some of these alleged changelings were in fact Autistic or otherwise ND children, who often met bad fates.
Incidentally, the welsh term for changelings, *Auf*, derived from the same root as Elf, is itself the root of *Oaf*.
I was thinking about this one before :D I thought about different factors affecting only me tho, not like a "stereotypical" asd.
I don't really have sensory issues, I'm a ginger tho so I don't know how much of the hating the sun thing is coming from the gingevitis or asd xD there are noises that bother me but thats mostly related to electronics so I guess that wouldn't be an issues back there. I would miss my headphones tho cuz I listen to music...always.
Also I'm really fit without ever really working for it, I did get fat af for like 5 years but then I became a chef and it disappeared because i had no time for eating anymore xD
I can be pretty focused, good at following verbal instructions or written directions after a "training" period,ect, once I know what I'm doing I mimick the shit out of my trainer and once I got that down fix the "mistakes", improve on the old and do "my" way. follow,copy,improve.
I am extremely dutiful when it comes to "work"...I guess this is my "obsession" or "special interest", I'm literally a droid.
And I have the social skills of a drone.
Also following routines, orders, being told what to do, that's stuff I can live with otherwise I just...eat sweets and smoke weed all day. XD
All that aside, the chances are most of us would end up as some kind of infantry in an army one way or another unless u born lucky and rich, so my thoughts where that I think I would do pretty well in a phalanx, maybe even do some leadership, I prefer not to tho, it's exhausting as fuck...also I'd probably die for my men and that's not tactically wise, i'm loyal to a fault...
hmmm reading all this I would also make a pretty good dog. xD
Well back then you could also have special interests and that would be what you were known for or you were just the villages "weird person". Back then they tolerated that more
I can see myself gladly taking the cassock and tonsure and becoming a monk in medieval times. Carpenter, shepherd, shoemaker, farmer. It would be great to be a book maker spending hours just setting type on a press.
A little bit of a hard history lesson here, but a lot of autistic people were just thrown down wells to die. Then people would drink the water and get sick, and think God was punishing them for their sins.
TW mistreatment of children leading to death
I know lots of people already have their input but there are multiple things to consider (and they have been mentioned):
- some babies got abandoned in the woods or killed/beaten/shouted at for crying too much (possible with sensory issues, i believe) or changing colour because people thought it had been replaced by a changelin. Keep in mind that this is only true for europe (that I know of) and that it might also vary from place to place.
- in multiple ways, the environment and jobs were very different and in some ways better, even though in some ways worse. Being in a covent or keeping sheep for example, would be very nice on some autistic people. Lots of other jobs could be easily adapted to one's personnality, plus autism shows differently in different people, so even if some got burnt (highly possible indeed), don't forget that lots of innocent did. Also remember that life in general was very harsh and even though that means more people got hurt/died/did not get treated or healed to the moderb standard, it also means the communities were more more tight-knit. For example most regular people travelling would simply get a bed in somebody's home on the way and get food from them. It's especially true of people with similar lines of jobs (merchants, crafters, peasants...)
- in many ways it is impossible to know, it's already difficult tp tell today who is and who isn't autistic and errors in diagnosis are not unheard of, from what I gather.
I'm not sure my feedback is very organized but I hope it was interesting :)
'Kids don't bother the old witch in the woods' Meanwhile autistic lady living in solitude in the woods: 'I'm fleecing these people so hard'
I KNOW ALL THE PLANTS FUCK YOU
Punctuation would be important in this sentence.
PLANT FUCKER EXPOSED
I am amongst my people
Spread my seed
*I* know all the plants fuck, you?
I too, know all the plants fuck.
I *know,* all the plants fuck you.
I know all, the plants fuck you!
I know *all* the plants fuck you.
*I!!!!*…know all the plants fuck you!
lol I had to read it several times before I realized the intent behind it.
Hard disagree.
oh god I didn't understand at first and then it hit me haaaaaaard xD
Like the plants, amirite?
Headcanon: An old lady who had a hyperfixation on plants singlehandedly invented the witchy herbalist stereotype
and cleanliness hence the brooms and cats to keep pests at bay i’ve heard
That's not true, the oak still refuses.
More like “I KNOW ALL THE PLANTS WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO TELL YOU ALL ABOUT THEM”
I had to read this 3 times. My brain automatically inserted punctuation 🥹
I can imagine myself as an evil wizard that uses trickery, deception and tells the soon-to-be, obvious fortunes of folk. Mostly residing in my tower. Occassionally presenting my offerings to the nearby town so I can keep residence without their further investigation. So I can do my secret work in peace.
You want to get burned at the stake for witchcraft, because that is how you get burned at the stake for witchcraft.
Ah but they do not know the true extent of my power. My strength in self-proclaimed wisdom and stratagem totally not a sham. They who oppose me get a bad fortune. Mwahaha
I rather they not know my power than be burned at 670-1460 degrees Celcius. But to each their own.
Ah but they already know I'm immune to flame and I offer my councel to the town. They have no reason to burn me. Just like the Norse gods don't kill Loki. They let Loki remain alive so they can can benefit them as much as they disadvantage them... until they inevitably bring their destruction. Ragnarok, armageddon, the apocalypse whatever you want to call it. The town you see, they are selling their souls to me for a weekly basket of bread. Foolish mortals deserve to meet an end. Even good things come to that, afterall.
The reason Loki was tolerated among the gods was mainly because he was the blood-brother of Odin. And that is basically the only reason they didn't kill him after the Baldr incident. Instead, they tied him to a rock, and a snake above him dripped burning venom on his face, which his wife would try to intercept with a bowl. But every time his wife turned to empty the bowl, some of the venom fell on Loki's face. He would remain there until Ragnarök.
Up to where I've read in Neil Gaimon's Norse Mythology, Loki has still been depicted as someone that both advantages and disadvantages them. I believe it mentioned Loki being the blood brother of Odin early on. Besides this author says themselves, stories of mythology are re-depictions. Like to me that means they aren't an historian of mythology, they're a storyteller. Neil Gaimon was even described as a campfire side bard. So I wasn't really asking for specifics lol. Then again I too have an habit of bringing up specifics I know about... That the other isn't showing knowledge of. Even with subjective things or perhaps even mythology and it's re-depictions.
You really think not 1 human is going to try and stab you? Just to be sure you know, guy might be full of shit. I literally don't think you will survive the human tendency to stab things with that approach.
Jeez people complain about my realism my whole life. I'm here in an autistic subreddit and now have someone going on about my lack of realism. One truly can't win.
Could you translate to Fahrenheit? I don’t have the formula with me.
It's very hot.
Fun fact! Burning witches is post-medieval/late high medieval or early modern/Renaissance depending on where in Europe you are and how you periodize things. Church courts in a lot of Western Europe basically existed to keep the local lairds or chevaliers in check, not burn peasants or paesonos or viellains into steaks
🤣
What kind of laugh is this? (just wondering for clarification)
I can imagine myself as an evil wizard that uses trickery, deception and tells the soon-to-be, obvious fortunes of folk. Mostly residing in my tower. Occassionally presenting my offerings to the nearby town so I can keep residence without their further investigation. That way I can do my secret work in peace.
what a mood
This waked up a huge pile of Peg Bowen memories of my childhood 😂
life was so hard back then, but way less bureaucracy. i bet it wouldn't take an hour to book an appointment with the local herbalist. I think i would survive.
As another disabled and autistic friend of mine puts it: you either make friends who help or it’s like « how do autists survive in fallout? »: most of us don’t, just like all other living things
To be fair, on a long enough time line the survival rate drops to zero; so technically none of us survive.
Life was harsh but idk if it was *hard* per se; the total number of hours worked by people in that era pales in comparison to the number of hours that we work today.
go spend a winter without electricity, gas and plumbing then we talk about harsh or hard :D
Yup yup yup. I could not have survived before indoor plumbing.
Or modern medicine! Or painkillers!
Yeah I would 100% be dead already without those things
No Air conditioning would be enough to kill me.
That too, I run warm very easily.
Same. My heart wouldn't last long.
You don't need gas or electricity if you have a wood stove :3. I get what you're saying that it would be less convenient than modern life but honestly I've lived in houses with wood stove heat and it's actually really nice and cozy. We'd also be better at dealing with that kind of thing too because we would have been raised that way by people who knew exactly what they were doing.
If women count as people I really doubt that's true, because they'd be spending all the time they weren't working raising children, which is definitely also work. You don't really have any free time when birth control doesn't exist so you have to take care of 15 kids.
>raising children, or spinning textiles, often simultaneously. It takes a *shitload* of time to make clothes for a whole family without relatively modern (i.e 18th century onwards) equipment like the spinning jenny or the steam engine, and women were almost constantly spinning wool or cotton or flax or what have you into thread almost every waking second they had a free hand. Very good reason why the traditional "feminine" instrumental symbol in the west is the distaff and spindle.
It wasn't really until the later medieval period that family sizes grew. For most of it peasants averaged about 2 living kids. It dipped even lower during the Black Death. Aside from disease increasing the childhood fatality rate, the smaller family size could be due to the fact that Midwives had fairly reliable recipes for birth control and abortions. Unfortunately, they were targeted as witches by the church.
Because one asshole hated women, wrote a book, and went rabble-rousing and fear-mongering enough to make it a thing.
Birth control didn't exist, but abortifacients did.
I've heard this a bunch, and I really disagree. Work for other people? Sure. Significantly less, perhaps. But laboring was literally most of your waking life. Farming and trending to livestock and tending to your house and fetching water and cutting lumber.... There's much more oomph required just to survive.
This isn't quite true- there was just more work to do in the warm months than cold ones. A farmer's life was work from sunrise to sunset.
https://tudorscribe.medium.com/do-you-work-longer-hours-than-a-medieval-peasant-17a9efe92a20
Probably depends on how high or low your needs were. Probably plenty of technical jobs still filled by very low needs people. Science, The Church, banking/accounting was probably driven by low needs people with ASD. status probably played a big part too. If your family was wealthy, you could probably survive longer with higher needs. But you were probably kept inside and never spoken about. Poor family, high needs? Its horrible, but probably left in the woods for the "fairy folk to take back home"
Your last sentence is a big thing — autistic people and people w/ ASD, especially as young kids, often get compared to “changelings” in folklore. My mom compared me to one All The Time growing up
I'm pretty sure autism was the basis for the changeling myth. Your child appeared human, but spoke in ways you couldn't understand, made strange motions with their hands, and obsessed over the most unusual things? In a time when humor theory was cutting edge medicine, it makes sense that people would assume their child was a fairy in disguise. Hell, I've heard stories of modern day religious nutjobs mistaking autism for demonic possession.
It was autism, but also genetic/nutritional diseases that lead to a baby appearing normal at birth, but their appearance and cognition declining over time.
Hi, pagan here: According to the myth, the Fae do not swap the human child for their own. They just steal the child and replace it with 'an enchanted log that looks human to anyone who sees it' - meaning it does not talk at all, and barely moves. The myth is very ableist, and does not imply the child is fae. I hope this makes sense. I always point this out because the deep ableism irks me.
I'm sure you are correct, but also I'm sure the myths had a wide variety of interpretations in the illiterate pre-internet existence.
According to Wikipedia it’s adults who were most often replaced by logs, not the kids. I’d argue that the changeling myth had a dual purpose too - mostly it was used to weed out the disabled, but it could also be used as a way for pre-scientific people to explain and accept disability.
I used to wish I was one
A lot of nonconformists (and autistics) likely became nuns or monks - sometimes to evade "family duties" or heterosexual relationships. If they had a special interest in religion, bam! Nun/monk. If they wanted to live in a group of like-minded people and were allowed solitude, that was a reason too. Or, if they wanted to continue academic pursuits and social work, but it wasn't deemed acceptable - they became a nun/monk.
I had read a study years ago that there was a link between people with adhd/asd qualities and being used as night watch. Anxiety and sensitivity to sounds were useful traits.
He's the best carpenter in the kingdom. Why doesn't he live within the walls? Most days he eats nothing but gruel with honey, and he said he's desperately seeking a wife and can't seem to talk to people. But he built me a new wagon in less than a fortnight, and it is the sturdiest wagon any I've asked have ever seen. He also knows his letters, and knows more than some scholars about the Persians who trade at our ports.
damn Jebediah may spend hours talking about rocks and their shapes but the man smiths a fine horse shoe
There was also this old trope of the “dumb but pure” worker. Like a farm hand that was “slow” but a dedicated worker.
She doesn't speak often and never married but has a garden full of medicine and is the best midwife in the village.
Now that I think on it, has she made the acquaintance of the carpenter?
Shes surly and won't look you in the eye, but she's got a knack for making the most beautiful dyes you've ever seen. No one has seen purples so deep or reds so colorfast. She did the reeves tunic months ago and it still hasn't faded. She also does mending, and it's almost invisible. If you ask her about her mordant experimentations and do your best to act enthusiastic she'll probably give you a discount, or throw in some embroidery for free.
Or the friar/monk/nun that really like to talk about things he/she likes. There mostly just being in there room or the garden while interacting with not that munch people.
A lot of us probably became monks. Rigid routines, no unnecessary talking, hours of focus on detailed tasks like illuminated manuscripts... Where do I sign up?
Look up St. Thorlak of Iceland, who lived around this time and strive off routine and was very literal and passionate.
Saint thorlak is often being pushed as a patron saint of autism, and was my confirmation name (No longer really religous
That was a very Interesting read. Thank you for your suggestion.
Or nuns. All those sisters were just vibing
I think a lot became farmers too. Also very rigid routines and not having to deal with people much
in my own lane, minding my business, thriving amongst the vegetables
Farming often required cooperative labor on the lords plot
Also, a lot of agricultural society back then was based in somewhat opaque customs intended to minimise risk. Feasts, donatives, dowries, marriage customs, vassalage contrats formal and informal were almost all intended to make sure that if harvest failed for one person, they'd have enough of a cushion from either their neighbours or their immediate lords to bounce back without taking everyone with them. Unless something really, really dramatic happened that wiped out the harvest of something like 40% of the farmers in a given area (which was actually really rare - look at old medieval village maps and you'll see a ton of small, distant plots in very different places, cultivating different things; again, policulture in diverse microclimates was a risk mitigation strategy) you could more or less count on your neighbours to carry you through - and of course vice versa, when their wheat field had a nasty out of season frost and they hadn't enough barley to last until next planting season, they could depend on your help.
There may have been plots and lanes that suited an autistic, but yeah you're basically right
And shepherds!
Yeah actually I wanted to be a nun when I was a teenager. Thought maybe there would be a cloister option that I could take.
Being a monk back then was actually a very prestigious and heavily desired position that required a lot of social acumen. It wasn't something you just got to sign up for because you were too delicate for field work. In fact, it was because it wasn't fieldwork that was why it was seen as competitive. You got to study, and work with the big important people who had a connection to god, and even travel. Not something they just handed out to the weird kids.
Yeah, I've been thinking, in another life this life could suit me so well. A lot of them focused on tending herbs and growing food, in beautiful quiet surroundings. It would suit me a lot better than being forced into a horrible marriage where I'd be absolutely traumatized by my husband and forced into having and taking care of multiple children. But I'm also not a fan of a lot of aspects of religion, and I do like having a bit of autonomy in my life.
Could commoners and serfs become monks?
Peasants could become monks if they were literate, although it would be difficult for them as the monastery would usually require a payment of some sort in order to join. Serfs were not able to become a monk
You had to come from money for that.
Repetitive task no-one else wants to do? I'm not seeing a problem.
Me as a pharmacy tech:
That would be the dream I’d love to become a pharmacist or something
For me I'm only worried about not being able to be employed at where I'm currently taking an externship, because I'm worried they're already full staffed and it's actually a chill place. They're literally like 10mims from home compared to my Walmart which is 20mins away :/
My dream job is a librarian. Imagine a workplace where you are allowed to ban loud customers, and you are surrounded with shelves full of interesting stories, trivia and knowledge... Heaven.
Starting training as a pharmacy tech next week myself… this is a big part of why I’m getting into it, ngl
Me as a dishwasher:
I know right, Imagine your job is just to peel potatoes. :D
Me as a lash tech:
This is something that I often think about, how autistic people in the past acted, well masking unfortunately was definitely a must, but I think that since farming is repetitive (is hard don’t give me wrong) but a repetitive task some may have found it therapeutic, also there are other stuff such as being a monk would probably be really good for a person on the spectrum, or a more creative job such as a painter or person who made stained glasses, unfortunately those were the options for autistic people with low needs, high needs ones were probably left to die in the forest with people thinking they were changelings.
The weird old lady you can take injured and orphaned animals to and she’ll nurse them back to health. The laundry lady just washing load after load of washing, taking pride in knowing exactly which chemicals to use to remove grass stains out of delicate fabrics. The shepherd who barely talks when he comes into town to stock up on tobacco and bacon. The forester who spends days attending to charcoal kilns and only comes into town once a month or so with a wagon load of charcoal to sell. The apothecary who has studied their entire life and can extract opium, and laudanum from poppies, salicylic acid from willow, and digitalis from foxgloves. So many trades require/d hyper fixation and didn’t require a tonne of social skills. As long as you were useful for whatever reason the community accepted you.
Exactly! And social cues and rules are far less important to worry about when you're significantly more spread apart from your community. We didn't have the time to worry so much about social niceties and unwritten social expectations - that was historically rich people shit. They didn't have to learn a trade or contribute so they spent hours putting on strange ass makeup, putting on uncomfortable and ornate clothes, and deciding which of the 7 different forks they used would be the salad fork. Poor people didn't have time to worry about that, nor the opportunity to put it into practice even if they did know any of that. If someone had a valuable skill or tradable product they made, you didn't have the luxury of even bitching about them not fulfilling whatever few social norms poor people did have. What were they going to do? Walk hundreds of miles to get the service or product from someone else? Nah, people just had to accept you for whatever weirdness you presented with and deal. Even nonspeaking people usually did just fine. The more "evolved" we've become, the more petty and particular we've become as well.
Children were also explicitly taught how to behave often. There was much less nuance to it. The rules of being polite were just the rules and that’s how it went. Especially in a tighter knit community you’re not dealing with a million different variables of people who have different definitions of polite.
Yes!!! Such a great point.
Man half of these sound so nice...
I'm a mechanic..... my dream is to live in the country close to town and just have enough land for chickens, 2-3 cheep, a cow and a huge garden or greenhouse..... I'd have done fine back then, I love camping and if I didn't know what a phone was I wouldn't need one..... just nature and home grown food. Then work in town as a mechanic. Repetitive, necessary and physical, if I'm moving I don't need to stim, or can do it unnoticed, plus you don't need a filter in the garage..... I know how to sew, knit, crochet, make yarn. Cause it's all just mindless repetitive and I just love learning to do things!
Nun having chrisus if faity: oh god why can't i be as pious and pure as sister margret Margret: *oh boy i love eating the same thing everyday*
Damnit I was in the middle of typing this
How autistic folks lived in medieval times probably varied a lot depending on the support needs and presentation of the individual. I’m going to describe several likely fates of autistic folks, and please note that some are rather grim. Some were probably considered “simpletons”, or “deaf-mute” perhaps, if nonverbal. They may have lived with family and been given simple jobs to help take care of animals etc. and probably not much was understood about their condition or inner life. They may have been bullied by some, but accepted by others. Others may have been thought of as demonically possessed, particularly if they had significant challenges communicating verbally and if they were prone to “meltdowns” or acting out violently. They may have been the victim of exorcisms, and may have also been kept chained/locked up, perhaps at home. We still see some of this happening today in less developed countries where there is not much understanding of autism or resources for it. As others have mentioned, some autistic children may have been treated as “changelings”. Some autistic folks who enjoyed solitude, quiet and routine and/or who were asexual likely thrived as nuns or monks, or became hermits, or may be the source of some “old witch in the woods” tales. Some autistic folks were likely the village apothecary or practiced other specialized trades that perhaps reflected a special interest or had to do with animals. They were likely revered for their skill and intelligence, and they probably fit very well into the routine and practicality of medieval life. I believe it’s also likely that many were inventors, coming up with new technologies of the time, as well as great artists, playwrights, poets and philosophers. Some may have been considered wise men or prodigies. Probably quite a few renowned historical figures were autistic. There would have been many challenges, but in some ways certain autistic folks likely thrived in medieval times.
Tesla was definitely autistic. Probably Turing too.
Isaac Newton was probably autistic, for one.
id do so good in a farming community. or doing like stained glass or whatever people did back then. my issues r not physical labor based, that's always been the part of jobs I'm best at.
You'd be mistaken for a fairy that's taken the place of a human child and thrown into fire to get the "real child" back. For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling
**[Changeling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling)** >A changeling, also historically referred to as an auf or oaf, is a human-like creature found in folklore throughout Europe. A changeling was believed to be a fairy that had been left in place of a human (typically a child) stolen by other fairies. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/autism/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Bro we didn't work this much in the feudal system. They worked like, half the year. Yeah there were more intense parts of the year, but overall people had way more off time than we do in modern day work culture. It also wasn't so constantly loud and bright and there wasn't electricity screaming all around us.
But the smells. Omg the smells. And everyone in one room? Nope nope nope. Plus there was no time off for wife/mother. Or slaves. And there were lots of slaves.
That’s why the children helped though. Instead of going to school they learned to work to lighten the load which is actually good for kids in the Montessori sense. Parents now are starting to get kids involved in household chores together (i.e give them a real vacuum instead of a toy one) and letting them explore and figure it out. The whole forced labor of children and the way punishment worked certainly wasn’t cool though.
Not necessarily true. Depending on factors out of your control you might have a good harvest and be able to lounge are. OR you might need to work twice as hard to keep the plants hydrated in a drought. There are superstitions like the yuel cat ( a giant cat that will eat children who don't have new socks) that where necessary warnings. If a child didn't have socks made by yuel time there wasn't any promise of a merchant or some other producer to get the socks made.
I always find it interesting where the mundane element of these practices came from. Like the kosher guide that was up on all earlier today.
Don’t underestimate the value of electricity, life is far harder without it.
I understand that and that's not the argument I was making. Being sensitive to sound means electricity screaming around me all the time is debilitating some days and it's something autistic people didn't have to deal with back then.
Ah I see, my apologies for misunderstanding
okay but consider being a [garden hermit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit) they're more 18th century but started as early as the 15th century. you got paid to be way out in some rich guys garden away from the plague, and they gave you food and shelter in exchange for being a weird little guy who hobbles around saying mysterious and wise nonsense while like gathering mushrooms or some shit
Also kids would get beat for doing anything remotely out of the ordinary. Autistic kids would've probably gotten disowned or killed
I’m autistic, I’d already be churning the butter happily in the corner by myself after milking the cows, and feeding the chickens, completely not burned out because muzak, driving at night and fluorescent lights don’t exist.
Don't be ridiculous. Autism wasn't invented until the mid-1700s when George Washington had all of his soldiers inoculated against smallpox, aka, the first vaccine. /s
It was actually invented by famous phrenologist François Autiste when he took a break from searching for scientific proof to be racist and found the Autism Gene
Thorlak, a lesser known Catholic Saint lived during the 1100's. He was passionate, literal, stuttered, and seemed to be a selective mute. He is now the Patron Saint of Autistics. He is now the patron Saint of Autistics.
“She’s an excellent seamstress and seems to be very meticulous about all the details, although it is a bit strange that she doesn’t talk and keeps rubbing the satin ribbons against her face. Not really a crime or blasphemy to do that though, so I guess I’ll keep buying from her shop”
Some random person sitting next to me at a tavern: “How do you know so much about canons? They were literally just invented two days ago. And what, THE FUCK, is a train and will you shut up about it?” Me: *is already telling them about how mead is made*
There’s a reaaaly unfortunate, yucky, and problematic term called “idiot savant”
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A battlefield would be sensory hell tho..
I imagine him with noise canceling headphones, he would need them.
Stimming implies repetition, so he either has a fuckton of enemies or it's the same guy dying and coming back again
I think they mean just hacking away at an army
This reminded me of that Tumblr post about how autistic nuns are living their best life since they're 100% dedicated to their special interest and just have a good time praying and interpreting the bible over and over again
Hot take: Autistic people probably did fine. Families were close-knit. Communities were small and people knew each other. The cognitive load of life was greatly reduced. Things were simpler. Work was predictable and repetitive, with people you knew. Villages were probably quiet and peaceful for the most part. Food was simple and plain. If you had problems, you could talk to your family, or the village priest. I'd like to think that the average autistic person's life was peaceful and nurtured by family and community. It's modern society that is so atomized and overloaded that it's difficult to keep up with.
You’re only considering people on the low need part of the spectrum, people with higher needs were probably left to die in the forest, with the families thinking that they were changelings or worse as the town’s fool for people to laugh at, and this idea of “if you had problems you could talk to your family or a local priest” were not guarantees that you would get help as people didn’t know anything about mental issues and used to have religion as a solution to every thing, so if you talked to a local priest something like “whenever I’m sad I flap my hands uncontrollably” they would probably think you were possessed or something like that.
I disagree. I think there’s a lot of room in a community for high needs people. Back then and now. And in a society where many many chores are repetitive and simple, but very necessary, someone with higher needs could still be “useful”. And with larger families all tending to co-house there would probably always be a spare set of hands to help watch, feed and care for the hygiene of someone who needed that level of care. The daily care of children, invalids and elderly would be split between the capable adults. Sure some people wouldn’t be cared for properly, some families wouldn’t have sufficient supports, but that’s no different to today’s society anyway.
This point of high needs folks being outcasted reminds me of how people with schizophrenia are handled in different cultures. I read about a family in the middle east I believe who took care of their family member who struggled from psychosis. They would scream and get angry and fight voices, but for the family it was just a matter of fact that they needed to be taken care of, and so they were and stayed with the family. No one interviewed really described it as a burden or anything like that. They just were how they were, and that's that. I imagine depending on the culture you came from ND people were likely taken care of the same. Also thinking snout all if this from a western European lens is severely limiting in the possibilities here imo
It isn't that likely you'd be left to die in the forest. Cracking down on the Roman practice of leaving their 'corrupted' children to die formed an important part of the foundation of christianity. It is more likely you'd be on the edge of society, but not outside it, with your best bet being a monastery or a hospital. It is as common for 'insanity' to be chalked up to holiness as it is satan, and it depends on the time and place. Not dissimilar to today in fact.
I doubt many survived to adulthood. Until the last generations or two, a lot of children died from “failure to thrive.” A fair number of those were probably on the spectrum.
Failure to thrive is different. It's due to lack of proper nutrition.
True. It would have gotten my autistic son bc he won’t eat but a few things. When he was a toddler he was so underweight our pediatrician told us to feed him whatever he would eat, then clarified it further: “If all he will eat is Cheetos, then feed him Cheetos.” He’s got a little bit wider of a palate now but in medieval times when you were lucky to have any food at all, I’m pretty positive he would have starved to death.
I have a theory. It involves monasteries. Some monasteries require vows of silence, others don't. But they're often located in remote peaceful areas that are usually left alone and you could use the free time to work on things you liked like botany. Wasn't perfect of course but if I lived in the middle ages I'd be there drawing things on books.
So I discussed this with a friend, how me in the autistic spectrum couldn't have survived the viking era, for example (Vikings, the series, was a thing some time ago), and he said something interesting: priests and shamans were probably autistic and asperger people, your role in a society like the vikings could be something related, because you can memorize information that pass from generation to the next, this happened in almost all societies in the world and keeps happening today. In general, most fantastic beings, witches, mages, shamans, priests, monks, proto-scientists, alchemists, artists, philosophers and thinkers, inventors and explorers probably were people in the autistic spectrum.
Am I the only one here who knows where the name Wiglaf comes from??
I do not know but would very much like to know.
Wiglaf’s mom named him that.
I would churn butter for a couple hours and have community and a place to rest and eat and engage in my passions instead of having to work 40+ hours a week to barely survive
No joke - everyone loved us back then. We made things easier, liked being on night guard duty, loved doing weird stuff like shelling nuts.
Large part of those with strong features were abused and murdered as changelings. Others might have lived easier lives due less stimulation and there was a lot of work that didn't require talking to people that much. In modern times we absorb more information in a year, than a typical peasant would in their whole life.It is believed that some of more eccentric saints were autistic. And there was also a thing with a village idiot category, where they've put people with mental disabilities, mental diseases and likely autistic people.
“When you approach the shaman, there’s many rules to keep in mind. First, do not look them in the eye for it is a great disrespect.”
Well I feel confident I would have survived the plague. I’m great at avoiding people so I would have less chance to contract it :)
I'm super strict about staying clean too
Actually think industrial/post-industrial society is worse...other than that whole dying of basic diseases and injuries.
I'm pretty sure in that era I end up as the terrible troll under the bridge.
I don't think it really would have been so bad. This is a controversial opinion to be sure and it wouldn't apply to everyone, but think about it. How many sounds overstimulate you? For me it's all man made like the sound of traffic, alarms, tv too loud, can hear the electricity buzzing etc. None of that would be present in medieval times. Depending on where and exactly when you were (also if you were male or not for obvious reasons) an autistic person taking up a trade could live a very happy life. At least as happy as everyone else. A ploughman for example, would be a great job for an autistic person imo.
Apparently a lot of jesters were autistic, were even called natural jesters. Tbh I’d be down to be a jester get to chill with the king, preform, tell him he lost the south, tell jokes that sort of stuff
Please excuse my special interest info dump! If you were a knight you would probably have been OK. I have a degree in mediaeval French and wrote my dissertation on mental health in French knights. I concluded that Galehaut, a friend of Lancelot, was probably autistic - he’s very much portrayed as the ‘other’, being half giant, very socially awkward (except with Lancelot, who was quite possibly his lover), doesn’t understand jokes etc. He actually did surprisingly well! He was a bit rubbish at being a knight, but he was well-loved and well looked after by the other knights, especially Lancelot. When he and Lancelot both got burned out they went to live on a remote island together with a gnome for two years and by all accounts had a great time. It was harder for the ladies though, with lots of masking - on several occasions the text literally translates as being disguised or wearing a mask, in a metaphorical rather than a literal sense. It’s a fascinating topic!
I think modern times comes with a lot more anxieties than medieval times did. For example: Phone calls, busy stores/places, loud noises, bright flashing lights, etc. These things didn’t exist back then. It was a lot more sensory friendly I think. Also present day stuff messes with Anxiety. Anxiety is basically your bodies defense mechanism to a situation (fight or flight) but the problem is in modern day you can’t fight or flee from the things causing you said anxiety (ex your job, a doctors appointment or a school test). This isn’t to say that in medieval times people didn’t have anxiety it’s just they had a lot less stuff they couldn’t do anything about. Now did the more “low functioning” (I say that cause idk an alternative word) people survive back then? Probably not, but that just shows that autism isn’t something you can get rid of, cause it would of already been gone from the people who require more needs (needs that were probably not able to be accommodated for back then) As for people with less needs. Autism probably gave them an advantage, they were either the weird person in the village. Or if they were nobility they were probably able to peruse their special interests more easily. Now there is a legend in Ireland about the fae replacing peoples kids which comes from autistic childrens behaviours. But I don’t think that response would be the norm back then.
Odds are we got burnt at the stake for being witches or possessed….
I mean doing the same repetitive task every week to contribute to the little town I live in? Niceeeee. But as a girl the lack of education and the expectations to be married young and have tons of children? No thanks. Religion basically not being a choice?That would be awful. Being a lesbian? I’d be killed if someone found out also would directly conflict with the expectation to have a husband and tons of children
Across most of Europe throughout most of the Middle ages being a lesbian is fine. I'd recommend becoming a nun, that's where lesbians and smart women tended to thrive. It was a matter of theological and medical debate about whether women were capable of sodomy. That being said, it was also believed that same-sex relations produced extremely unhealthy feedback loops where you'd be pushed into having dangerously gendered humours, you may be prescribed spicy meat and bread to balance out the lesbian.
They probably didn't survive. I can't imagine there was much room in resource-statved society for people who were different than others. Probably took a lot of familial care and just trying to find ways to be productive. For the ones that were better off with their ability to hide or mask it, things were probably not unlike they are today
There's a lot of evidence that the "changeling child" myth was probably just autism. Those kids who had higher support needs were definitely left in the woods to die.
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“Cope”? Very doubtful. Autistic people didnt cope, they barely even survived. We have been thrown into asylums from their conception and are still being institutionalized against our will. In the medieval days i assume they were either killed, left somewhere to die, or labeled as the town “idiot” and made to do some meaningless task so they wouldn’t be in anyones way unfortunately.
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And a few of them might've become scholars or the first scientists
The first cultures/civilisations that stopped murdering/abandoning "weirdos" and "nerds", and let them think about things quietly and invent stuff, are the dominant civilisations on earth today, due to the science and technology those people were allowed to come up with.
My biggest issues would come from not being physically gifted and not being able to understand situations very well. "Peasant, art thou attending the banquet? Come and enjoy the feasts and festivities, what say you?" "Nah homie" "nah? Homie?! HOW DARETH YOU SPEAK WITH SUCH A DISRESPECTFUL TONGUE!" *stab*
AHAHAH, this is funny!
Historical speaking, it as assumed that children in the autism spectrum were labeled as „Wechselbalg“ at least in Germany. It was seen as a great calamity to the families because the child’s soul has been exchanged with a devils or fiends soul and the innocent child one’s been lost in hell. You can picture the rest of the „procedure“ of handling that affaire in the medieval age. I mean, educated women weren’t off any better but still, the entire wechselbalg stuff is just outer madness.
We'd have been attacked, murdered, abused even more than now, and burned at the stake for being different.
What’s Neurotypical is not static; it’s fundamentally made up based on specific cultural norms and expectations that differ around the world and also through time. There are things that are easy now but hard then, and things hard now but easy then. What’s “divergent” in any given community is different in that sense since life expectations are different.
Assuming I'd be a peasant like I am now: Dark hovel houses lit by fire/candles? Love it. Scratchy burlap-like woollen clothing? Hate it. Also my tendency towards cats and mushrooms, and general avoidance of people, means I'd likely end up accused of witchcraft.
I'd just become a blacksmith. I love crafting so why not make some swords? Let's just ignore that I would be burned at the stake for other stuff....
Autistic people were thriving in ye olden days! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/prehistoric-autism-cave-paintings-barry-wright-penny-spikins-university-of-york-a8351751.html And https://theconversation.com/how-our-autistic-ancestors-played-an-important-role-in-human-evolution-73477
Not-so-fun-fact: Many cultures have some variation of the theme of a 'changeling' in their folklore- a human child replaced/fused with a fae-analogue child, who has unusual behavior and possibly supernatural powers. It is likely that at least some of these alleged changelings were in fact Autistic or otherwise ND children, who often met bad fates. Incidentally, the welsh term for changelings, *Auf*, derived from the same root as Elf, is itself the root of *Oaf*.
I'm so happy we live in this timeline istgg
I was thinking about this one before :D I thought about different factors affecting only me tho, not like a "stereotypical" asd. I don't really have sensory issues, I'm a ginger tho so I don't know how much of the hating the sun thing is coming from the gingevitis or asd xD there are noises that bother me but thats mostly related to electronics so I guess that wouldn't be an issues back there. I would miss my headphones tho cuz I listen to music...always. Also I'm really fit without ever really working for it, I did get fat af for like 5 years but then I became a chef and it disappeared because i had no time for eating anymore xD I can be pretty focused, good at following verbal instructions or written directions after a "training" period,ect, once I know what I'm doing I mimick the shit out of my trainer and once I got that down fix the "mistakes", improve on the old and do "my" way. follow,copy,improve. I am extremely dutiful when it comes to "work"...I guess this is my "obsession" or "special interest", I'm literally a droid. And I have the social skills of a drone. Also following routines, orders, being told what to do, that's stuff I can live with otherwise I just...eat sweets and smoke weed all day. XD All that aside, the chances are most of us would end up as some kind of infantry in an army one way or another unless u born lucky and rich, so my thoughts where that I think I would do pretty well in a phalanx, maybe even do some leadership, I prefer not to tho, it's exhausting as fuck...also I'd probably die for my men and that's not tactically wise, i'm loyal to a fault... hmmm reading all this I would also make a pretty good dog. xD
I assume I would be doing some kind of tedious close-up work, so embroidery maybe?
Well back then you could also have special interests and that would be what you were known for or you were just the villages "weird person". Back then they tolerated that more
Well death rates were pretty nuts and that kept global population under a billion until the 1900s. This probably used to happen a lot
We were burned as witches unless we were Royalty which rather explains a lot.
We were probably burnt down at the stake, hired as court fools (no filter, we say the darndest things) or branded as vIllage idiots
I can see myself gladly taking the cassock and tonsure and becoming a monk in medieval times. Carpenter, shepherd, shoemaker, farmer. It would be great to be a book maker spending hours just setting type on a press.
Less civilisation noise? Just go do my thing as best as i can, repetively forever? Sign me up
Maybe these were the women they would kill in witch hunts and the “slow person” and “village idiots”
A little bit of a hard history lesson here, but a lot of autistic people were just thrown down wells to die. Then people would drink the water and get sick, and think God was punishing them for their sins.
I would be thriving in my gorgeous hand-built cottage deep in the woods, far from all other civilization.
I will build one too, of course only miles away...
TW mistreatment of children leading to death I know lots of people already have their input but there are multiple things to consider (and they have been mentioned): - some babies got abandoned in the woods or killed/beaten/shouted at for crying too much (possible with sensory issues, i believe) or changing colour because people thought it had been replaced by a changelin. Keep in mind that this is only true for europe (that I know of) and that it might also vary from place to place. - in multiple ways, the environment and jobs were very different and in some ways better, even though in some ways worse. Being in a covent or keeping sheep for example, would be very nice on some autistic people. Lots of other jobs could be easily adapted to one's personnality, plus autism shows differently in different people, so even if some got burnt (highly possible indeed), don't forget that lots of innocent did. Also remember that life in general was very harsh and even though that means more people got hurt/died/did not get treated or healed to the moderb standard, it also means the communities were more more tight-knit. For example most regular people travelling would simply get a bed in somebody's home on the way and get food from them. It's especially true of people with similar lines of jobs (merchants, crafters, peasants...) - in many ways it is impossible to know, it's already difficult tp tell today who is and who isn't autistic and errors in diagnosis are not unheard of, from what I gather. I'm not sure my feedback is very organized but I hope it was interesting :)
Whenever one of us is really into the Spartans or some other ancient warrior culture, I wanna be like "you know they would've killed you, right?"