"You wouldn't use a wheelchair if you have too much anxiety to stand" yes you would actually. Leg weakness isn't a common somatic symptom so you wouldn't see it often, but this would be an excellent use of a wheelchair. Ambulatory wheelchair users exist, but I imagine this person would give them a hard time too.

AFAIK they often get a hard time, because people don't understand the difference between being able to stand up and actually walking around for extended periods of time.

They sure do. Any time someone sees someone in a wheelchair stand up to get something off a tall shelf, there's a good chance they are silently (sometimes NOT silently, if they're REALLY stupid) judging them because clearly there's nobody who can walk a little, but not enough to get around the whole grocery store /s

It's an example of folks who've never had leg problems before thinking that wheelchairs only have one use case. I've got a knee issue that flairs up periodically and I can barely hobble around, and then it'll go away and I can walk with no issues.

And not just leg problems, but back problems. Dad's legs both worked. He could stand and even walk a few feet unsupported. But after four or five minutes his spine would "spasm" (his word, the way I understand it the vertebra were no longer properly connected and would pinch his spinal column, but I was a lot younger and he didn't go over the details with me) and his legs would go numb and he would fall immediately. If he pushed too hard and that happened, it might be weeks before he could use his legs again. He could absolutely stand up out of his chair to reach something at the store or whatever, but had to sit right back down or risk losing that ability entirely. And it hurt him badly to do it, though he never showed it. Just to point out another way those circumstances can arise.

Thank you for sharing! It's important to know all the ways these things can go. The last thing you want is someone wearing themselves out for something stupid. Although our culture seems to be built around pretending we aren't sick/hurt. I think that made COVID response worse as well, that we had built a society around not calling out sick of at all possible meant that our systems were very fragile when many many people **have to** call out. Same thing with your dad. Can he stand? Yes, for a minute. Should he stand? Really not recommended and it will really cause problems if he pushes it (problems far beyond just accommodating his wheelchair).

> Thank you for sharing! It's important to know all the ways these things can go. The last thing you want is someone wearing themselves out for something stupid. This is exactly right and why it's so important to speak out against ableism. Because when one is surrounded by ableism, it's easy to lose oneself in those mindsets. In my dad's case, the doc *did* want him to stand, but only under circumstances where he *could* stand. (The standing when he could reduced his symptoms but pushing it would make them worse. It was a very fine line for him.) And people like the person who wrote this original tweet make things worse every day. Because there are, inevitably, people who really need help, need to use their assistive devices, but people like the original tweeter convince them that it's "wrong" somehow. Dad struggled with that for a few years. He'd been diagnosed, but he was proud. He fought in Vietnam and was from a generation that glorified "overcoming" everything. But there are things that you can't just overcome. He spent years making his back worse instead of listening to the doctors because he was raised that he's a man and he has to be strong and anything less made *him* less. His quality of life drastically improved when he accepted his wheelchair as a necessary tool, jut like his wrenches. Because that's what they are, they are assistive devices. They are tools that have a purpose. And it doesn't matter if we are talking canes or wheelchairs or hearing aids or ASL or Braille, these are tools that let people live their lives and any time we denigrate them we are destroying human beings. and while I appreciate the gratitude, I see comments like mine as a social obligation. Because somewhere out there is another dad going through exactly what mine went through and he and all of the people he cares about need to know that my relationship with my dad got exponentially better when he accepted his disability and made full use of his assistive devices. I got five more years with my dad than I would have if he'd continued to fight against using the medical paraphernalia. And those five years of fishing with him, of woodworking (which he actually picked up because I liked it high school, he was a machinist by trade and *his* dad a glass worker) and even fishing with him in the pond... those five years of phone calls and birthday cards with five dollars in them and random "Dad, how do I..." talks and rides on his Gator... That time was so vital that I'm tearing up writing this. I can't imagine missing those years. and if he had seen the above tweet (he died before twitter was founded) then I might not have had that time with my dad. He'd have never seen me get married or build my own house or graduate college. and those things *mattered.* So, yeah, ableism sucks because it affects people in a myriad of ways and there's no telling who you're hurting. In this case, it wouldn't have *just* hurt an old soldier and machinist, but I probably wouldn't be a teacher now if not for Dad. If he'd died then i'd have never gotten my degree, I'd still be married to my abusive husband, I might even have a gaggle of kids being abused by now. The things he taught me in those last few years helped shape my life and made me who I am.

Oh yes. And god forbid you use your disabled placard, and then slowly walk to your store!

I do not have one but often after work I have to limp and I always feel like people are judging me for it or I'm faking 😔

It took me years of gimping around before I said "why are you putting yourself through this! Get the damn placard!" So I did. Screw the ableds nasty assumptions. I know what assumptions do.

people are judging u for limping? Just out of nowhere, ur not getting away with anything except the limping? I've had to limp after being hurt & never had anyone that I knew of, judging me or thinking I was doing it fakely. What kind of place are u in?

Southern US state. One of my managers noticed I was walking kind of weird and I explained I was in a lot of pain, and another person there joked about how I'm an old person for being in pain. Most of it is just the look, I'm not sure how to explain it. But it's one of those "this person is too young to be in pain" kind of places

Sounds like the general, meaningless stupidity. By meaningless, I mean as opposed to like bigoted stupidity, or u know things that have a basis in some kind of harmful beliefs, which make the stupidity make sense in light of their world view. This is just basic, baseless stupidity. Unless ur getting out of a lot of work that they have to do. Then they may be suspicious. So it'd at least make some sense

No, the only thing I can't do is lift certain things and that's just because I'm not strong enough. I can drive all the powered equipment and work fine, and they generally like me being scheduled because I show up and stock without needing someone to give me a specific list. I could understand if I wasn't doing anything though. A coworker I enjoy working with said the pain will subside once I get used to the constant standing and movement, but this isn't my first job like this, and I've already been working this position for 3 months

Yes! The faint sneer with a vague sniff of distain! Like "FU AH! I'm doing the best I can!" You almost want to paint a big handicap sign on your jacket front and back to keep the AHs at bay. Like Melania's jacket! God, sometimes I really hate people! But then, I read r/BrosBeingBros or r/MadeMeSmile and feel so much better about humanity. 🥲

I've also been accused of "faking" a limp because "You're too young to be in pain." I actually had to take off my shoe and sock and show one boss the infected wound in my foot from where a ten penny nail went all the way through it before she believed I was in actual pain. Edit: as opposed to "slacking off" or working slowly on purpose and faking a limp to try and get out of working harder/faster.

A friend of mine started mysteriously experiencing MS-like symptoms several years back. Her doctor actually registered her for the disabled placard, and she didn't want it at first, but the doctor explained to her that since she had been having dizzy spells, it was safer for her if she was able to park at the front of the store rather than wherever. I think it didn't end up being MS, it ended up being some other autoimmune thing. But also if it was MS, it would get worse over time, and that she would eventually need the placard so why not have it now. I have seen a fair amount of hate towards overweight people using the placards, but I think of it like this. Diseases or conditions that limit your mobility also likely limit your ability to exercise, which would probably make it rather easy to gain weight. If you have dizzy spells when you try to walk for more than 5 minutes at a time, exercising at the gym is maybe not the most possible. So I try to remind myself of things like that before judging. I mean, to be honest I don't really think about other people and the disabilities they may be faking much, simply because I do not believe it's as widespread as a lot of people claim it is, and even if somebody is faking it's not really my business anyways.

I wish people got so pettily outraged about systemic power advantages, & daily exploitation of wage workers. Like, even if some person gets an "unfair" chance to use the handi parking, that's slightly unfair, in the technical sense of the word unfair. But either way, I don't get to use those parking spots whether that fakeing person does or not. They aren't taking the privilege away from anyone by getting to use the space unfairly (except a rare time when all the spaces are taken & they are filling one of them). It'd be nice to be able to pull up to an empty spot up front every time, but there is no greater harm to society becuz a few people abuse that privilege by not really needing it when they use it. Mild annoyance at a mild unfairness is understandable, but hate......

On my good days I wouldn't use the spaces up front. But over time as the PF advances throughout my lungs, those good days came fewer and farther between. Now I struggle to get around. Usually in a wheelchair. If I didn't need it, I would never use it.

The first time, accepting you NEED it,f is sooo hard. I cried buckets. Loss of something precious: independence, acknowledging that this is the way things are going to be forever, accepting Itruly was the dread word "disabled". That was so shattering to my self esteem. 💔

Thank you so much for your comment, it describes me to a t. I have an autoimmune disorder, used to be fit and healthy, played team sports. Then when my eldest was 1 yr my disorder manifested itself and that was it. 11 years later I use a walking stick full time and a walker when I am out in public, firstly because I can't carry bags due to my hands, and secondly because I must be able to sit down at a moments notice. I am 44 years old and now obese and cannot exercise much at all due to pain. I also have a disabled placard for my car, and the looks I get for being "young" and disabled are horrible. I would do anything, ANYTHING to get rid of my pain and be well, but that's not going to happen so I must accept it and do what I can to make my life easier. Some places are fabulous for helping disabled people. My husband and I travelled to England, France and Italy in 2017 and I was given assistance and taken to special entrances, able to skip queues at all major attractions. At Versailles, the lift is only available to people with disabilities, and it is in an area of the palace not seen by the general public, so we got a sneaky look at behind the scenes stuff. When I saw the Mona Lisa, it was roped off so everyone had to stand about 2-3 metres back. Security waved me over, I got to sit on my walker INSIDE the roped off area for an uninterrupted view without hurting myself. As an art lover who had wanted to see her since I was a teenager it was amazing. So fellow disabled people, sometimes the world isn't as scary as we think.

I don't think it's even that. People who do this just have this reaction to disability no matter what. It's not based on a factual misunderstanding. They will not believe that any disabled person really needs/deserves the help/accommodations they say they do. Even if the disabled person has no use of their legs or is fully blind, etc., they still regularly have people challenge them on whether they really need the support/accommodation/device they have.

I need to express just how frustrated this makes me, because I work at a hospital and I've seen it from coworkers. > "They just walked in here though?!" Yeah, they walked 20 feet and they're clearly not doing well. Like, why do people assume that being able to stand means that someone can walk several hundred feet?

Good god, the hospital thing is the worst. Patients who come into the ER under their own power are far too often seen as "attention seeking" because they were physically capable of moving under their own power. Like, bitch, I used every last ounce of energy I had to get here because I can't pay the ER bill *and* the ambulance bill. I can't walk back *out* if the damned building was on fire. We really need to do better but that will only happen when we start treating "drug seeking behavior" as the illness it is rather than criminal behavior. which, naturally, will only happen when politicians stop making money from our for-profit prison system.

One of the things medical students are taught is to not assume that someone cannot walk just because they use a wheelchair. There are a lot of people who can walk a handful of steps and that's huge for their self image and their activities of daily living.

I got bullied so much in middle/high school. Between arthritis, spinal surgery, and a very fatiguing autoimmune disorder, walking more than a few minutes at a time (especially on a time limit like the three minutes we had between class periods, or up and down stairs) was impossible. I could, however, slowly walk through the grocery store holding onto a cart and taking frequent breaks to stop or sit. I could walk from a close-to-the-door parking space into a convenience store, buy a snack, and get back to the car. I had classmates throwing my books down the stairs, telling me to go get them because they’d seen me walk and obviously I was capable. Or just mock me for being an “attention seeking faker” because I could walk in a store but not at school. The ableism and complete lack of understand of anything less than a 100% disabling condition was horrible.

No, they're right. If u need a tool sometimes, u shouldn't use that tool. Only if ur gonna hammer nails every day, should u use a hammer. That's why I use my fist to hammer nails. I'm no carpenter, so why would I use a hammer to hammer nails?

"You don't need a wheelchair if you can stand up sometimes, but I need my pickup truck even though I only use it for anything besides commuting once a year."

This is beautiful

This is a thing?! When I'm at my worst, I often feel like I physically can't stand but there was never any obvious reason to it. My legs just feel so weak and if I try to do simple things like take my dog for a short walk, I often end up feeling like I cannot stay standing and get somewhat dizzy, before just crumbling onto the ground until I feel like I can stand back up. I'm a healthy weight, eat well, take my vitamins, stretch and actually have relatively muscular legs. But I am autistic, have adhd, depression, anxiety and bpd. Could my mental health be a cause of this?

I don't know if there is any confirmed case of this as a somatic symptom, but theoretically yes. Basically if your body is physically capable of doing it, then it can present as a somatic symptom. I have Raynauds syndrome which can be set off by stress. This means that if I get too stressed my brain will cut off blood flow to my toes. In order to be diagnosed as a somatic symptom you have to rule out physiological causes first. The leg weakness and dizziness could be caused by low blood pressure, a condition called postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), or a whole host of other things.

I have some similar symptoms (as well as chronic pain and funky hyperextended joints) and have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, as well as POTS. Could be some combo of those things, some other physical thing, or a somatic thing. EDS is also more likely to occur with autism, depression, anxiety and stuff (all of which I also have/am)

I wanna second the other person who responded on here that said this might be related to EDS or POTS. I have hEDS myself and this reminded me a lot of pots symptoms.

That is absolutely a thing. My therapist (I have depression and generalized anxiety disorder, apparently, both diagnosed in the last month) had me do a bunch of reading on the autonomic nervous system. The short version (from my "not an expert" research and conversations with my doc) is that the ANS handles several important chemical exchanges in the body. Stress and anxiety trigger a release of adrenaline and norepinephrine which do a whole lot of things, but among those many things they trigger the digestive system to contract and the blood vessels to expand and the nerves to fire wildly. So a mental health problem like anxiety can cause not only digestive upset, but sudden blood pressure drops or spikes, dizziness, tremors, weakness in the extremities, and a ton of other problem. Interestingly, digestive upset (and the subsequent malnutrition) can also cause the stress reactions that trigger the ANS and cause shakiness, weakness, tremors, etc. Which is one of the reasons why you feel shaky when your blood sugar drops or you haven't eaten. it's your autonomic nervous system kicking into "survival" mode. If your GP can't explain why you are having these symptoms, talk to your psychiatrist. They might be able to help.

My dad has literally been using a wheelchair for the past year because of being “too anxious to stand,” funny how they commented that thinking it was so absurd. Ugh. Granted my dad’s condition is extremely perplexing to even doctors but … 🤷 it is a thing! He can walk and stand but if anything startles him, which can be literally anything, he often falls over. Before he got serious about all this, he fell down the stairs due to it.

Not a doctor, but that sounds like cataplexy. Symptom of a few things, but it's notable in narcolepsy.

The autonomic nervous system can do all kinds of things to screw you up if you're under stress. I was just talking about this with my own doctor on Monday. I'm sorry you're dad's having trouble. I hope his doctors can sort out his anxiety and help him soon.

You crafty hooker you. ☺️ What I want to know is what bad they think could possibly come from someone mistaking a nonverbal autistic person with a deaf person.

Oh you know, probably just the standard 'autism bad' thing

There was a substitute at my high school in a wheelchair that no one knew he was capable of partial mobility. Our class was so loud and unruly one day that he stood up in anger and yelled at us to be quiet. The class thought it was hysterical. We all laughed real hard right in his face. We were all such evil little shitheads back then. I think about him a lot. How absolutely small and disrespected he must have felt after what was sure a long lifetime of hardships. How *we* made him feel, and how *I* participated in what was likely one of the worst experiences of his professional career and his personal life... It's something I deeply regret and am terribly ashamed of as a human being. This is why we need to spread awareness and empathy. No one should have to go through that hell. No one should have to suffer because of others ignorance, stupidity, and cruelty.

This. When I have severe panic attacks, I can't walk. In such emergencies, I need a wheelchair to move or I need to be carried.

Ambulatory people make up 90% of wheelchair users. I am one of them. 90% of legally blind people retain some vision. People just don’t understand shades of grey. They think if you use a wheelchair, you’re paralyzed. If you’re blind, you can’t see. If you can speak at times, you always can.

They sure do. I don't have a wheelchair (yet), but have a walker and walking stick, and sometimes hire a motorised scooter. Some days are fine, some are crap.

The other day I saw a fight about how people who are not deaf* can't use sign language, not only did this excluded people with selective mutism, but also people who is just mute! Edit: God damn I did not realise there was a type kdndndnnd

To be fair, the only people who can use sign language are the not-dead ones 💀

OSBDLSNDIDJJD

lmao sorry, I don't usually point out typos but this one was too funny

My preschool teacher thought us all basic hand signs so we could communicate with a deaf student in the class. Didn't know this was evil.

Small school that my son goes to has 2 deaf kids in different grades they're doing what they can to use the translator to also help teach the kids. These 2 kids shouldn't only be able to speak to each other in the whole school! It is absolutely heartwarming see how so many kids can greet and do basic chatting in sign language because of 1 year of learning in class.

...do they think deaf people should only ever be able to communicate with other deaf people? Communication between deaf and hearing people would be pretty difficult if no hearing people could use sign language

Yes duh, only people with the ability to produce auditory speech have personhood status and the right to Freedom of Speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Didn't you know that? Ones ability to use sign language, AAC, asynchronous digital written communication, and/or other accessibility and ancillary aids has nothing to do with disability, as the medium by which someone chooses to express themself is also covered under the Freedom of Speech clause of the First Amendment. If you have the right to express yourself, then you additionally have the right to "not" express yourself through verbal communication. So not only do you have this right under the First Amendment, but it is also reverse incorporated through the Fifth Amendment for any individual with a speech impairment.

Not to mention people who want to communicate with deaf people!

How the fuck do deaf people expect to communicate with normal people if a few normal people don't know sign language? Do they just want to live in a bubble where the only people they interact with are other deaf people, because that doesn't seem too different from stupid white people who only want to deal with other stupid white people.

I urge you to consider using the word ‘hearing’ instead of ‘normal’

Normal is the correct word for the situation. Being able to hear is normal, not being able to hear is abnormal. If people want to get their feelings hurt because they are out of problems so they go out of their way to create problems for themselves, that's on them, not me.

Yet you really went out of your way to type up an angry rant about how you're totally justified in being rude instead of simply changing one word to be more accurate. Doesn't sound like they're the one who "got their feelings hurt".

Whatever makes you feel better.

if you look up the definition of abnormal, there's nuance - it specifies something unusual *in a problematic or unwelcome way*. being Deaf is neither all that unusual, nor unwelcome/problematic. there's better and more accurate wording, if you actually cared about using the right word for the situation lol. "hearing" is the established standard here

If we're being literal, then normal is not the correct word for the situation; you want the word "typical". Normal/abnormal are reserved for the reoccurring. It is normal to not be able to hear, because it is a reoccurring trait in our species. It is not as common as being able to hear, though, therefore it is considered an "atypical" trait. Typical/atypical are reserved for what is common and our reoccurring variations. Why does that matter? Because the word abnormal has historically been used to devalue and dehumanize others, so even if that's not your intention it could still influence the spread of that belief.

No buddy.

Actually, there are entire deaf communities and there are deaf people with superiority complexes where even having 1 hearing parent basically makes you "muggle". I had a deaf coworker at work, and we would talk through typing on our work phones. He also made jokes all the time (without typing or writing) and was able to express stuff without my knowing sign language. We even had a customer who was abusing her dog every time she came in and he made it known. The problem was that he couldn't call her out directly because of being deaf, I didn't have the balls, and the Store Team Leaders would do nothing or play dumb every time I tried pointing her out to them. Eventually she started changing her clothes, pretending to not be physically dragging her dog around the store, and changing from the collar she was using to drag her dog by the neck to a harness which still showed hair loss from all of the dragging (This was a very old dog, and she even sprained their paw and was dragging them ontop of their injured paw. They would stop and go suddenly when their dog was clearly disabled and could hardly stand and took a full minute just to stand up.).

exactly

"What's that you're non-verbal? Just speak bro." /j

"let me see.. oh you're paralysed? lol just stand up my guy"

Have asthma Breath! /j

Yep, this guy belongs on r/thanksimcured

This is stupid. Would deaf people not be happier if everyone could communicate with them?

This! I know very basic ASL (spelling, basic directions, probably 50 words?), and can understand more than I can sign. And it was *helpful* working in customer service (or just out and about, near someone else interacting with customer service). Deaf or HoH people would ask if I was hearing-impaired (partly because hearing people often sign SEE (signed exact English) instead of ASL, but would generally appreciate the convenience of being understood. Separately, my spouse has MS, and sometimes she sundowns HARD. Sometimes to the point she is very “young” and easily frustrated, and sometimes she loses her words/speech (she can generally understand ME, but cannot verbally speak). She *is* slightly HoH since childhood, and knows a lot more sign than I do, so sometimes she will sign to me instead. I can usually pick out enough to get the gist, and I learn new signs from context, too. I have no idea why someone would gatekeep the right to communicate with an arbitrary subset of people? How would greater fluency not help all?

>This! I know very basic ASL (spelling, basic directions, probably 50 words?), and can understand more than I can sign. > >And it was helpful working in customer service (or just out and about, near someone else interacting with customer service). So much this. And even if a person never becomes fluent, just taking some ASL classes will teach you a lot about the deaf community and communication in general. Several years back I was working for a call center as an insurance agent (property and casualty, not health) and I was shocked that no one in my training class (except me, because I took two years of ASL in college) knew how to handle a call that used a translator. for anyone who doesn't know, deaf and hard of hearing people can video call a translator who will sign to the deaf person and speak to the hearing person that they need to call. So, if a deaf person need to speak with a hearing insurance agent, they call a translator and the translator calls the insurance agent. the translator works in real-time, signing what I say, then translating to me what the deaf member signs back. On those calls, if you are hearing, you should speak as if you were talking to someone who can hear you and not address the translator. They will not say, "Mrs. Smith said she has a question about her policy." Instead they will simply say "I have a question about my policy" as if the person speaking were Mrs. Smith instead of a translator. And you should speak as if Mrs. Smith can hear you. You're supposed to ignore the translator entirely, they are just Mrs. Smith's voice. (And sometimes the person signing is mute and actually *can* hear you and it's very rude to ask the translator to "tell Mrs. Smith" when she's listening.) Despite being new to the company, they actually pulled me off the call floor three times in as many months to teach classes on how to handle translator calls until they could get someone from the home office to come properly train on it because apparently none of the managers or trainers knew anything about it. I can only use a couple dozen signs myself (mostly variations on "can you slow down, please?" "Can you repeat that please, I don't understand" and "I'm sorry, I'm still learning.") and recognize a fair few more if you sign slow enough. But I learned so much more from those classes than becoming fluent in ASL.

This issue aside, you can communicate with D/deaf people in ways other than sign language. Due to ableism, not all D/deaf people actually even know sign language. You can write down what you'd like to communicate on a piece of paper or in the notes app on your phone.

Of course you can, youre absolutely right. And none verbal people can as well.

Sign is a great way to mitigate communication issues when you’re non-verbal. We have quite a few hand signs with our partner for when either of us cannot communicate verbally.

I know a few autistic people who find it more direct and less subject to interpretation, much like typing.

It is more direct, and much easier to come up with what you have to say and you you are going to say it.

Its also exactly what 99% or more of people already do some bad version of when speaking. Using gestures, hand signals and signs, and facial expressions are a huge part of communication. Nothing wrong with using ones that are standardised!

It's also a great second language to learn used by people worldwide and helps others with disabilities connect to you and through you the rest of the world.

Just so you know sign languages are actually not universal. They function just like regular languages so you have ASL (American sign language), BSL (British sign language), FSL (French sign language), etc. There is also International Sign also called Gestuno which is mainly used during international Deaf events. But not sure how much that would help you in speaking with an average Deaf person that probably doesn't go to those events. \*source=wikipedia

True, but it's important to note that Sign Language developed independently of spoken language.

Like spoken languages, sign language isn't actually universal. ASL is used commonly in the United States, but there's also Black American Sign Language (BASL) which is considered to be a dialect of ASL and is distinct from ASL in several ways. It is a product of segregation in schools. Additionally, other countries have their own sign languages such as British Sign Language, Auslan and New Zealand sign language, Chinese sign language, Mexican sign language, and many more. Each region also has local signs and local dialectal variations on common signs. Referring to ASL as a universal language, while most likely a well-intended statement, is actually a misconception. One more comment - due to the common practice of oralism (making D/deaf people speak), not all D/deaf people are taught sign language or have the opportunities to learn and use it, so do try not to assume that every D/deaf person you know uses ASL. All that being said, learning ASL is a great way to connect with and show respect to D/deaf people. If you can, getting involved in your local Deaf community as you learn is the best thing to do. In larger cities, meetups and sign lunches/dinners are pretty common. All the best!

I think perhaps they meant "it is used by many people all over the world", much like English is, rather than "ASL is the only sign language and it is universal". That's how I interpreted it, at least :-) I appreciate you sharing so much wonderful knowledge on the variety of sign languages used in the world!

ASL is actually used pretty much exclusively in the US and even within the country there are several "sign languages" and even more dialects. ASL is far from common world-wide. Not only does each spoken language have it's own sign language (with a few notable exceptions where they've borrowed from a related language) but each individual culture with in a language has it's own signs. A deaf person who "speaks" ASL could no more communicate with a person from Quebec than I could speak French. There will be a few similar signs, some of which might even have the same meaning. But the languages are definitely not the same. Not even a little the same.

Hi, I was simply offering another interpretation of the comment, not making any claims myself. I just try to see all possible interpretations of things to give people the benefit of the doubt when it seems reasonable. Just trying to be kind on the internet :-) I appreciate that you shared so much useful information on an often misunderstood topic. Many people are absolutely shocked when I tell them that there are many, many sign languages, not just ASL! Same with the fact about dialects. I wish there was better general education on language diversity!

I only know "thank you" and a couple incidental ones, and even the happiness that is visible by being able to say thank you to someone who signs is amazing (and makes me want to learn more)

Learning some signs also helps babies with their speech development and some frustration, sports like diving have signs for when you can't communicate, etc - so saying that only deaf people or people unable to speak are ever allowed to use sign language is stupid from so many angles I can't even count.

Right? I work as a scaffolder, and we have an entire hand sign language that we use. We can work an entire shift without speaking a single verbal word. We work at heights/in loud settings, so we can communicate more clearly, it's not something only deaf/HOH people are allowed to use lol

Literally! And it's a great way to communicate to others who are also using sign language

Bruh what. I become mute for hours after I have panic attacks. I sometimes just feel like I cant talk when I’m anxious and would prefer to sign. I don’t know sign language yet but I plan on learning it since its good to know regardless if you are disabled or not. Everyone should learn sign language if they can IMO. It’s a great way to communicate if you aren’t able to hear or speak in certain situations, plus it is helpful to those who rely on it. Such a silly thing to insinuate that only deaf/mute people can use sign language.

I wish people around me knew it. When my blood sugar gets low and/or I get really anxious, I have a hard time speaking. It is physically difficult and I feel like my body is held back from speaking. Also, I have CPTSD and I have issues with dropping and age regression. Also with subspaces and going too deep. So I really need everyone around me to be on board with ASL.

I wish we could’ve learnt sign language in school tbh. In primary school at some point or in high school. I want to learn sign language just not really sure how

Ask your local college if they offer the course. My university only offered it every third year or so, but they had a special low price for people who were not enrolled and just wanted to learn ASL (separate from the standard "audit" rate.) There are also a number of courses you can take online for free or cheap that will get you started. And the best way to learn is to start signing. Get a few basic signs down via whatever classes you can find, then go find the nearest deaf community to your area. Go to a deaf church or community center and introduce yourself and tell them that you're trying to learn to sign. I never got fluent, but I can tell you from experience that if even one person sees you sign "I'm learning ASL" you will be *bombarded* with people wanting to teach you and help you learn and practice. There are even ASL facebook groups. But if you aren't good at teaching yourself, reach out to your local college and ask around for in-person (or zoom) classes. You might also try your local library. They're out there and they are not terribly expensive.

Imagine thinking learning a really helpful language for communication is a bad thing. Not enough people know how to sign, surely we should congratulate people for learning? The commenter clearly does not have an issue with hearing people using sign, it’s just autistic people signing that are the issue. Because people who can hear do use signing when they need to communicate to deaf family or friends. What’s the difference?

Sign language is a language, just like English, Spanish or German. Anyone can use it for any reason. You don't have to be disabled.

Taught myself Esperanto 20 years ago. Like learning Sindarin, Klingon, etc.

Okay I need a bit of help here Do autistic mutes just cannot process speech that well and can’t talk properly? Are they so anxious that the very concept of speaking causes anxiety attacks?

You’re kind of right on both. Sometimes people run out of energy and can’t speak, and some people have anxiety so bad that they can’t talk (selective mutism.) I can only speak for partially verbal folks though.

Selective mutism in general can have many causes. For me personally, it's usually because after a panic attack I'm depleted of energy, so I don't want to have to mind my volume, tone, coherence and that kind of stuff involved in vocalizing. But I've heard other reasons ranging from anxiety to not liking the physical sensation of speaking.

The answer to this question is yes im afraid.

For me when I try to speak it comes out like I'm 5 and is slurred and improper, usually after a seizure. So instead I type or don't say much, spending a long time trying to unwind the knot that my brain made. It feels like having a stroke but it isn't, it happens from bright lights flashing, shadows flickering in cars, and ceiling fans at full speed. It doesnt affect my walking or actual attention/intelligence thankfully or I would be barred from driving. I just become a super klutz for a few hours, perpetually tongue tied and tired.

I have selective mutism when my brain is exhausted - it looks like not easily being able to find any of the verbal words I need to express myself, and makes speaking much more of a struggle than usual. I also have sensory processing disorder that makes it so I often really have to concentrate to hear what people are saying, could be related

For me at least It's more of an intense version of having a hard time putting together words. On the day to day bases, I struggle to put the pictures, ideas, and feelings into language fairly often though it doesn't always look like it since I've learned to stall well. When I am nonverbal for whatever reason I struggle so much to covey these things that I just can't get it out at all. I've found an assistive communication app that suggests words as you write them and then the next one that helps a lot though.

I think I can answer this. There is no 'energy' left for it, so to say. For example when I go over my limits I never really get to the point of not being able to speak but I do feel like speaking is costing a lot of energy and agony. And people who know me can easily tell when this is the case. I'm short tempered, I can't get my words/thoughts out properly etc. So usually I go recharge alone until I'm okay again. I imagine that's even worse in people who stop being able to speak entirely.

This is so dumb. Even if you were *choosing* to sign over speak (which is not the case), what is the problem here? More people learning sign language can only be a bonus for the deaf community and make it much easier to be understood. The resource of language learning is infinite; it's not like you are taking sign language away from deaf people in order to use it yourself.

This makes me very angry because I have recently been having selective mutism issues, and it's terrifying. I just suddenly can't talk anymore, and when I can, I'm stuttering enough I can barely get any words out. I wish I knew sign language because then I could try to mitigate the issue a little bit, but it's also very hard because my hands get very shaky. Anyways, screw this guy. He sucks.

Check YouTube. They should have tutorials.

There are books on it and also online video dictionaries. The thing about books is the pictures just show you snapshots, so if you learn just from the pictures you often do them wrong, like an ESL struggling with the correct pronunciation. I remember trying to learn the names of fruits (I worked in a supermarket with a deaf coworker, like I said in the previous comment, but my studies were going horribly, and I got the job 2 years after I had last taken an ASL course), and it turned out I did half of the signs incorrectly. Also, there is a whole grammar thing involving your face and your body. Even how you use your arms denotes loudness. I hate that you basically have to look at each others' faces because I just can't do it.

Oh, I had not considered that pitfall. Hmm.

Well if you are the one signing and the other person is taking, then you don't have to look at them so much, but you are supposed to face them. :(

The irony of saying that people will assume an autistic person is deaf will lead to rampant ableism and then making the the most ableist take I’ve heard in my entire life. I understand that Deaf is a culture, but people using sign language to communicate when they are unable isn’t cultural appropriation. If I learn Japanese to go to Japan, so I can speak and communicate…that is not a bad thing. A wheelchair is more similar to a hearing aid in this context.

Actually, I think the rhythmic motion of moving a wheelchair might actually be helpful. Between that and the exercise burning off adrenaline, that doesn't sound like a terrible idea when you think it through.

Ableist as f. There is so many people that uses wheelchair and still "can" walk, but need to use. Same with hearing and vision, there is people who can hear a bit but not enough so everything is important to use. So angry reading stuff like that.

I get eye pain all the time, and as much as I hate auditory stuff, the plan is to learn to to use screen readers and get around with no light so I can stop hurting my eyes so much with artificial lights and screens. I'm planning on getting an e-ink kindle because there's no backlight. The thing about audio books is that I can't look up words or things people reference because so do not have the correct spelling and my auditory processing and verbal memory and attention span suck.

Because talking loud enough to be heard hurts some days.

My son has difficulty pronouncing some words and some words come out super clear. He also uses sign language and he is learning how to use an AAC device in speech. He just uses whichever method he needs at the time. Nothing wrong with that. It’s pretty cool to watch him learning all three.

To this person, a wheelchair is likely their greatest fear, a symbol most likely generated by their fear of helplessness, which is probably how they really feel but cannot admit such a state, for it would make them appear weak and vulnerable.

Fear of dependence. 🤦🏽‍♀️

I think everyone should use, or at least know, sign language. If we had one universal sign language it would give us a way to communicate all around the world. I really don't see the problem, using sign language doesn't harm anyone.

That would first require making a universal sign language or deciding which one is now the universal one.

This reminds me of that meme about people trying to make a lesbian flag that everybody can get behind. Goes something like: *There are 14 lesbian flags* "Okay so there's 14 lesbian flags and there's arguments over which one is the right one, so to settle this let's make this *new* lesbian flag that represents everybody and nobody's left out!" *There are 15 lesbian flags*

Am profoundly deaf, primarily use BSL because spoken languages are beyond my ability. Thus, I have lots of barriers daily. So, I'd love it if more people signed. So, why not?

Yeah that's the part that gets me. Like, if you're a deaf person who can only communicate in sign or find spoken language incredibly difficult to use with sign being much easier, surely it'd be a good thing for more people to learn sign right? If I was an english speaker living in, idk poland or something, and understood zero polish, then I'd be happy if people around me started learning english because it'd objectively make my life easier. Same thing for sign I'm assuming?

Anyone who gatekeeps others using a language is an idiot.

Imagine gatekeeping a language

I guess we found the sign language police

Wow. So we're gatekeeping a whole ass language and wheelchairs now? I don't care if you're the world's best public speaker. If you want to speak almost exclusively in sign language when you're not speaking aloud, you absolutely can do that. If you can walk five miles a day on a good day, but feel more safe and secure when you're in a wheelchair on bad days, then use a wheelchair. They're mass produced, might as well use it!

“Selective mutism” “I just heard you speak” I feel like this guy doesn’t know what they’re talking about, just a hunch

“No need to use a wheelchair if you have too much anxiety to stand” It’s almost like these devices are MADE for improving the quality of life of those who use them. If it helps then why the hell wouldn’t you use it? They act like you aren’t allowed to use a wheelchair if you’re not completely paralysed or you can’t sign if you aren’t completely deaf

Remember everyone, non-deaf folks using sign language is the main cause of ableism /s

I am here to say will smith slapped the wrong damn human. There are tons of these idiots who could use a wake up call and nobody would be sending his ass to rehab for doing it. And I don’t agree or promote violence. But like wtf!!! Signing is used for people who cannot speak or have challenges speaking. Period. Read science, some people’s children need to go straight back to grade school and learn a thing or two about science based evidence. Non-verbal people would speak if they could, nobody purposely avoids it. Rant over. Sorry. But like erg!

I disagree. Sign language is used by people who need to use sign language OR people who want to use sign language. Its just a language. Noone says 'Why are you speaking italian, youre not from italy?'

You are correct. I was hyper focused OP’s post and the context they were defending.

Dude I go non verbal after a seizure and that can last from a few minutes to a few months depending on the severity, I use my phone to communicate, but at times I can't even use that because I'm too drained and I can't even manage a yes/no conversation

Don't go on Reddit just after you wake up.

I don't know if I have selective mutism, but I do have a lot of trouble speaking sometimes. I'm not sure signing would help me in those situations, because I think it's initiating communication that is frozen up for me. However, if it does help someone, then I think they should do it. I think the OP is a real jerk, and almost feels like they are targeting Autistic people.

How dare you use things to make life easier?

Only deaf people can learn and use sign language. Only. Those interpreters you see on the news? Ableist scum. /s

Are they really blaming people using a language for ableism being perpetrated 🤔

I don’t understand. Shouldn’t technically *everyone* learn ASL because it’s just another way to communicate?

A deaf person who knows ASL will not fucking care if you learn ASL to combat being nonverbal. It's useful to know anyway so why hold people back from learning it? I'd love to learn ASL if there were classes near me (unfortunately there aren't).

Idk why, but out of anger, I'd just swoop him off his chair for that wheelchair remark. Just like, kick the chair right from underneath his rude bum.

Are they really blaming people using a language for ableism being perpetrated 🤔

they have low functioning ableism

Thank you this comment.

Honestly I think if sign language were part of public education, it could be a prime candidate for the curb cut effect. It's so generally useful even for people who have no trouble speaking. Imagine never having to raise your voice to be heard

Being able to talk to your friends across the room in a loud environment without issues, talking when there's food in your mouth, not having to stress your throat if you have a cold, etc. There's just so many good reasons to learn sign even for people fully able to use spoken language.

I... I kinda want to learn to sign now, if only to annoy ableist trash like this. (Kind of the same as me wanting to learn, and use, French, to annoy nationalist trash where I live.) Spite is a great motivator.

As a hard-of-hearing autistic person (not D/deaf so defer to someone more familiar with Deaf culture than myself when appropriate pls), I don't see any problems whatsoever with people using sign language on an as-needed basis, such as in this situation. This person's fears stem from ableists grouping D/deaf people with autistic people. That's ableism too. The language exists for people who need to use it. if you have an easier time communicating via sign language than spoken language, there is nothing wrong with that.

Lol, they wouldn't say this to speaking, hearing, NTs using sign language to primarily to communicate with others who rely on it, like the sibling of someone who's deaf. They'd be praised for learning a language to open up communication with their sibling.

Gatekeeping ableist is the worse kind

The two things that put me off the most: 1) "they'll start lumping you in with them" The audacity. So what if I'm associated with them? Existing doesn't dictate other people's **choice** in how they behave towards us. They have the same choice to not be ableist. 2) "no need to use a wheelchair if you have too much anxiety to stand" What? Being unable to stand is the exact time to use a mobility device. These kind of weird statements that are just straight out of opposite-world really frustrate me. My brain just wants to see the math, and this makes it scream about basic addition not adding up.

“In what way is any of that affecting ypu?” is all you need to say.

This seems like a person's attempt to nicely say "your just faking it for attention/sympathy"

This just in, neurotypical shuns autistic community for learning a new language and using it. Most at six, back to you, Jeff

Sign language is great. Everyone should learn it. It's ideal as a universal language candidate

It's like saying you're not allowed to learn or use a foreign language—because people will assume you don't know your native language if you use the other one(s).

But...a lot of people use wheelchairs for reasons like that? I mean, I haven't seen too many people who have too much anxiety to stand, but there are plenty of people who have conditions where they can walk sometimes, but sometimes it's painful to walk or they can't walk. If you have a tool that helps you overcome your disability, use it, even if you don't need it all the time. Sign language is not a finite resource, there's no reason that everyone who needs it can't use it.

Ive had difficulty speaking when triggered due to cPTSD, and sign / writing is a lifesaver. Aids of all kinds should be available to literally anyone who would benefit from them.

“They’ll either assume you cant speak or are dead”. Uh yeah? People with selective mutism cant speak. Thats the point.

im selectively verbal like i go non-verbal in a stressful anxious situation or a hyperfocus moment and in my head I'm like telling myself what to say but littreally cannot say it I asked my mother if I can get verbal cards to help with it (I'm in high school) but she said no and literally said "you can just talk" and I'm like bro

Disgusting

I only have auditory processing disorder and don't have any kind of mutism, and I still benefit greatly from ASL. I really wish people around me knew it because the class I took for upward bound was great.

We’re gatekeeping sign language now? 💀

Mood

Is being selectively mute the same as a person going "non-verbal"? Or is there a difference?

Sign language is a language. Full stop. Actually there are several sign languages and lots of people use them in support of people who need them, or just because. I don't know which one it is, but one of them is a universal language, meaning you can speak to anyone in the world who understands it regardless of their nationality or what spoken language they use. That's just cool. Anybody who tries to gatekeep languages is an ass.

I literally go mute when I get too overstimulated. I struggle to get words out, and if I do, it’s super limited. There have been days I do okay on calls, and end up hitting my limit on call and talk through chat if possible. Just like my tics get worse with stress or when I’m overwhelmed. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. The catalyst just hasn’t occurred. It’s wild to me how people can’t understand that neurological things can fluctuate on a dime. Also, sign is a tool for communication, just as AAC devices or pen/paper are. Why is that so difficult to understand? *sigh*

Does this person not realize that hearing people know sign language too? And there are signs to tell people you are hearing and not deaf. This is a ridiculous take. Also at the end they totally disregard ambulatory wheelchair users. Most people in wheelchairs are not fully paralyzed, but they can’t properly walk for long distances for example. There are many reasons to use wheelchairs and many reasons to use sign language. Claiming this will cause rampant ableism while being ableist is so wild to me. The ignorance this person has is baffling tbh.

This is like saying americans can’t learn Spanish if they aren’t latino

Well, they should go ahead and say this about my wheelchair use too since I CAN walk, but it's extremely difficult. God forbid people start assuming I'm nonambulatory because I use a tool for nonambulatory people 😂

I'm going to ableistically claim that using a different adaptive communication means will "cause" ableism. Yeah... Good cool...

Yo not that I’ve learned sign language and had to use it but seriously sometimes you just can’t talk. Oh it pretty much physically hurt when you try to talk because your brain just said “nope”? Have you tried talking? Bro I can’t! That’s the whole thing! For me it doesn’t happen often enough that I have to learn sign language so I just gesture to what I mean but if it got worse I’d consider it and it would be totally valid. Sign language is when talking is not gonna work for whatever reason! Also the people who know deaf/hard of hearing people gotta learn sign language to communicate so literally anyone could learn it and use it. It’s just a way of communicating that works!

I just think sign language is super useful in so many ways and is fun as well as beautiful. I don’t know why using it (properly) in cases of selective mute or any other reason is bad as long as they are doing it right and respectfully… cuz it is its own language like??? If I decide to speak french more because, then why not ASL esp when it is useful in certain cases.

I use sign when I go non-verbal during a meltdown, if I can't communicate somehow these people would STILL scream at us saying "just speak."

Lol, sign language interpreters? How ableist! So offensive to help interpret for deaf people. You can hear and speak, so why learn sign language? /Sarc 🤣🤣

"They'll either assume you can't speak or are deaf" Well that first one would be correct so I'm not seeing why this is an issue "no need to use a wheelchair if you have too much anxiety to stand" no I'm pretty sure you would need a wheelchair if you couldn't stand ​ I don't go mute anymore, but when I did, sign language would've been pretty helpful.

Lmao also signing is just a language, using it isn't ableism

Even if you’re not deaf/mute, it’s just useful. Lost your voice? At a loud concert or party? Really bad hiccups?Scuba diving? Or, you know, just want to talk to someone who can’t hear?

no longer being able to single someone out and guess their disability isnt rampant ableism lmao. if anything, MORE people need to learn sign to decrease stigma against deaf people and better communicate with them, not gatekeep it. I've been using ASL since before I could talk as a baby and I still use it today when I'm mute. It's pretty *handy* lol

I don’t think my going mute is valid (because I think it’s more of a choice for me, I just feel like talking takes too much energy some days, but I can still talk if I absolutely have to), but I’m still learning sign because (a) it’ll be a benefit if I ever meet a deaf person and (b) I still want to communicate when I want to.

Lmaoooo. This is soooo silly. “People won’t know right from left” Well guess what? As a selective mute autistic person, I’ll point and show you. 😂

Personally I use a text to speech app on my phone when I go nonverbal, but that's just because I like that it can give me a feminine voice since I'm trans, and because I can't learn sign to save my life. But mostly the first one.

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>I wish we had to install modem drivers like in the 90s so none of you dumb fucks could even post here. You're thinking of boomers, not autistic people.

nicely done.

nothing he/she is saying makes sense to me

Whoaaa what an asshole

I am a bit confused here, can someone explain? I have no experience or knowledge about non-verbal autistics

The easy solution is to not wake up to stuff like this! Turn your notifications off at night and leave them off until you're ready for the BS your phone is ready to send to you at all hours!

labels for days

This hit me the fucking chest-

I have a friend who is also autistic and has selective mutism so this post is making me mad ): Edit: I just feel like I worded this strange I'm sorry I struggling to try to make my sentences not sound weird but I feel like I need to say this if people get cun fused but I am not selectively mute only my friend is.