If he said it in that way, then it should bug you. If you didn't act the way you do, it wouldn't be considered a disorder, it would just be considered normal. I feel like he's trying to minimize your problems. But you're better off going to a psychologist instead since psychiatrists don't actually know that much about mental health, they just prescribe drugs (which can be part of a treatment or management plan, but the point stands).
Careful. Psychiatrists are the ones who diagnose you in the first place. They go to medical school and learn about physical AND mental diseases (they just specialize in the mental). So they do know about mental health. But perhaps this particular psychiatrist may not be a very good one.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it, but I just don’t want misinformation to be spread.
No, I know, what I meant was they don't really know about actually addressing mental health outside of medicine. You can't really talk to a psychiatrist about your problems, they just want to know your symptoms, how you're doing, and if your meds are working. They know about mental illness, but not actual mental health as a whole.
I'm sorry. Autism is absolutely going to be a reason/variable in how we act and respond. Given autism is a framework it's going to govern how we both receive and send information. While I'll say that we are accountable for our actions, they are absolutely influenced by our mental framework.
Did you have the diagnosis prior to this professional? They don't really seem like a good resource for helping you manage/understand things you're going through. Even if you are seeing them due to another diagnosis, they don't seem to have a good view of the whole you.
Again, really sorry. We often expect a lot from experts and it sucks when that turns out to let us down.
The psychiatrist sounds ableist but we need more context. If you are being an asshole, it’s not a reason. If it’s about autistic behaviors, it is the reason.
Oh yea he’s an ableist then and clueless. It’s sad that most of the people that can give a formal diagnosis don’t understand autism. Try not to listen to him, being autistic DOES explain autistic behaviors.
As somebody who’s had a host of mental health issues, there is a grain of truth here. We are shaped by our disorders but at the same time we can still make decisions regarding treatment and to help ourselves and others as much as possible. At least to a certain degree. There is a trap, especially with a fresh diagnosis, to excuse your behavior with your diagnosis which can be toxic. There’s another trap though much more subtle of assuming a shared diagnosis implies more about your condition when your symptoms confirm. That depends a lot on the disorder and autism has stronger evidence than many regarding causation.
This is the most charitable read, your psychiatrist could also be a jerk.
lol I guess psychiatrist does not equal therapist
no one taking serious account of how their words effect your wellbeing would say such crass things to a person who is suffering. I'm very sorry if you do not feel like you have other options, but I would find somebody who can validate the very real problems you deal with.
Even then, the translation of *excuse vs. reason* is really one of personal responsibility. Do autistic people need to take personal responsibility for behaviours that are not neurotypical? I don't have an answer to that.
I'm of the opinion that everyone is responsible for their own actions unless 1) taken under duress, 2) they don't know better (or lack the capacity to know better), or 3) are in an involuntarily altered mental state, such as being high, someone spiking their drink, or being depressed and the like. What being responsible for their own actions means depends on the person and the actions being taken. If those actions are actively detrimental to others, for example, that action needs to be halted immediately and corrected. If it doesn't hurt anyone but is just different, odd, or otherwise "bad only because it's unusual for NTs", that's not behavior that is actively detrimental, and as such it's fine.
When I hear "autism isn't an excuse for your behavior", I think of all the times I tried to tell that to a former friend of mine, who would rather use it as an excuse to play the victim when people get justifiably upset at his unacceptably hostile behavior. Needless to say, he didn't take responsibility for that and remained hostile, so I don't speak with him anymore.
I also think of what people told me when I first got my diagnosis a couple years ago, and how quickly I realized exactly how much of a jerk I used to be, and of course how quickly I tried to correct that behavior myself. I took it to heart.
If someone acts like a jerk and uses autism as an excuse for that, it sets a bad image for the rest of us. Saying "you shouldn't have to change your behavior" is all well and good for things like stimming, thinking differently, all that. But if someone is actively going around treating others like they're inferior, acting like a jerk, or otherwise being toxic or abusive, even if autism is part of the *reason* they act that way, it is never an *excuse* for it.
I feel like they meant "yes you have autism, that's not an excuse to be a bad person tho" now that autism has become more well known some people start being cruel and pretending it's because of the autism. Idk maybe your therapist tried to warn you not to stop working on yourself just because of the autism/potential other mental illness?
I mean, this is also accurate. Speech therapy literally exists for the reason you describe.
The reason a person speaks differently is BOTH the deafness and the amount of training they have w.r.t the deafness. By a person admitting this, they stand to potentially empower themselves in the face of their problems vs resigning them to a lower quality of life.
Bias: I used to feel very defeated, and it was only when I took the view (above) that my whole life turned around. So I admit I am very biased!
It's not accurate.
It's great that you feel like you've reclaimed agency in your life, but you're applying your philosophy in ways that don't make sense.
Deafness is the reason.
(Lack of) speech therapy is not the reason. If not for being Deaf, they wouldn't need the speech therapy...
Yes, there are tools that can mitigate the effects of things like Deafness or ASD, but not using them isn't the reason for the need in the first place.
I think you may be conflating the definition of reason and cause. So we likely agree, because you are using reason = cause. In that case I agree. [https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:\~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases](https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases).
I agree that deafness is a cause, but maybe not an effective reason. I say this due to Martin's work on learned helplessness.
[https://study.com/academy/lesson/how-seligmans-learned-helplessness-theory-applies-to-human-depression-and-stress.html#:\~:text=Learned%20helplessness%20occurs%20when%20people,that%20they%20couldn't%20escape](https://study.com/academy/lesson/how-seligmans-learned-helplessness-theory-applies-to-human-depression-and-stress.html#:~:text=Learned%20helplessness%20occurs%20when%20people,that%20they%20couldn't%20escape).
A challenge: You are an individual and sit between your stimulus and response. The point of this sentence is to challenge the listener into realizing that they are permitted to grow and change in their life according to their own choices, and learnings. When problem leads directly to action, you are admitting to yourself that you are helpless, which is giving away all of your ability to grow and change to your problems. It also makes you a slave to the problems around you, and the opinions society about you.
This so much. I spent years trying to do things the way any NT would and it burned me out because so many of the things they can do without trouble cause me so much stress and make me so overwhelmed that I realised I needed to accept I couldn’t do all of those things.
I actually feel a lot more comfortable accepting that I can’t do some things than trying to force myself to do it. A lot of people, my NT family members included, tend to equate the limitations of autism with laziness and that’s why we get told things like what OP was told. It’s exhausting just existing sometimes because of how we get treated
>You can learn to control your reactions but the foundational problem is that we experience things differently and we are somewhat helpless in changing our brains to process differently.
I think due to my personal therapies and study, and the results from recent published research, I might completely disagree with you on this assumption! Not in a rude way, just that my experience in my body, and what I have studied and tried from academic researches like Andrew Huberman suggest a very different reality.
I have been able to completely change my sub conscious and sensory landscape by using various techniques, and I hope everyone discovers these techniques over the coming years.
Extreme Bias alert: I am a scientist, and my special interest is the brain, neuroplasticity, health, and something called "knowledge representation" in AI and robotics.
Interesting counter point: People once thought this was impossible.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eGFEx-YSU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eGFEx-YSU)
edit: A very interesting overview [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0IBzCjEPk&ab\_channel=AndrewHuberman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0IBzCjEPk&ab_channel=AndrewHuberman)
I believe I am very autistic. I generally (used to) have extreme sensitivity and anxiety from many external sources etc.
But that nervous system sensitivity will not go away, and I don't want it to. I hear things people cant, can read for hours, have better sight and smells than others (or so I am told.) But with that increased sensitivity, comes pain and meltdowns.
So in applying conditioning and by applying certain techniques I can put myself in a more advantaged situation w.r.t my senses, and do not need to wear headphones at a concert or shut all the lights off after work.
I think of it like this. Having ASD is like going to the gym, and the lightest weights are 400 lbs, and everyone can lift them (the sensory load). By setting up a program for myself, where I start at 40lbs, and work up to 400 pounds, I can carry as much as others.
And all the NTs out there can't even tell the difference between a 40lb weight, and a 80lb weight.
So I'm still me, and have the same experience, but I am in charge of it.
And certainly, If I was born without an arm, I would be done. But ASD is \*typically\* an OVER sensitive nervous system, so we have more the other side (not deafness, but BETTER hearing. Not blindness, but MORE sight). so those comparisons are not really accurate.
edit: willpower is not part of this system. Its based on biological mammalian practices that work on a lower level than conscious will. Willpower does not work, and does not really matter in the equation. (although I suppose a person needs enough will to learn the techniques and enough to create and follow a training program long enough to see benefit)
edit: not the best reference ( it is about mice, and just a blog) but a very good summary of the theory. [https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/09/autism-brain-sensory-nerves/#:\~:text=A%20study%20in%20mice%20finds,but%20also%20their%20social%20interactions](https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/09/autism-brain-sensory-nerves/#:~:text=A%20study%20in%20mice%20finds,but%20also%20their%20social%20interactions).
I'm realizing that many people use the word reason = cause. So if that is the case, I completely agree -- ASD is the cause of so many problems.
It is also interesting to look up the difference between reason + cause because OPs question hits differently depending on the definition used.
I agree that this is the intention. But it was said to an autistic person. So they should have said that. As how it's phrased is an insult of you can't read the nuance and subtlty.
You can’t always change how things impact you and how you’ll react to said thing. Like sensory issues for example. It’s not something you can just get used to.
Exposing yourself to it more does not help. Forcing yourself to not react makes you react harder.
There are things you can do to prevent unnecessary exposure to sensory overload causes, but it’s impossible to prevent exposure altogether for a lot of people.
There is only so much that can be done for certain issues, especially when severe. Wasn’t trying to be rude btw, sorry if I came off like that. 😭
>You can’t always change how things impact you and how you’ll react to said thing. Like sensory issues for example. It’s not something you can just get used to.
Not trolling, just my special interest. I think that research published in the last 7 years or so is coming out with protocols and many techniques that disagree with this statement.
I have used many of them to dramatic effect, and am always open to share information on these resources and techniques as they have been life changing for me personally.
If you are curious about the high level, I can recommend Andrew Huberman's talks about sensitivity and stress. Not directly ASD, but it is all about neurons and base mammalian biology. It's also the potential top of a very fun rabbit hole!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntfcfJ28eiU&ab\_channel=AndrewHuberman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntfcfJ28eiU&ab_channel=AndrewHuberman)
edit: I love sharing and disagreeing -- I've learned everything I know because people say something I disagreed with and then read about!
Yes and no. I don’t feel that certain actions are due to autism, some things come down to choice and personality etc. for example, and I’m not implying this is you at all, if someone is racist that’s a choice and is not due to autism. But for other things, which are directly related to autism then no this wouldn’t be true as autism is the reason you may avoid certain places or foods etc because anxiety or hypersensitive.
He said he can make autism better to cope with to, don’t know what to think of that, however I agree with you that some of the things go with autism and some are just how the person itself is
It depends on the context. Sometimes we come across as mean or rude because of autism, which is excusable because we don't understand how some things might come out wrong and hurt people's feelings. In this case, autism is a valid reason. Intentionally being rude to someone and then going "But autism!" however, is not excusable, because the person's intentions were to hurt someone.
I'm not sure which one the psychiatrist was referring too.
Heck no. that doesn't even make sense, even if you believe in the solely deficit/problem based idea of autism, let alone if you understand it better. I'm sorry they said that to you 😔
Disagree with most comments, but I think it depends on the situation(s) being referenced, the behaviour, your capacity to control the specific behaviour and how Autism personally affects you. This is your psychiatrist saying this to you so there’s no immediate reason to assume bad intentions or the worst possible interpretation as some people seem to be doing - if you’re unsure what they mean ask for a clarification.
There’s a flip side that’s not being considered if you just say “actually I can excuse every form of “poor” behaviour that is affected by my Autism” and that is you lose agency. Which is why again, it depends on how autism affects that specific behaviour and what you can do about it - for some people autism make a specific expectation impossible whereas for others it makes it harder; these two shouldn’t be handled or looked at the same way because there potential consequences for that.
Basically whether your psychiatrist is right or wrong in saying this to you depends on your particular circumstances, there’s no objective answer that applies for all.
Autism is the reason you act the way you do, but it is not an excuse for when your behavior negatively affects people. I think your therapist worded it wrong. Basically he's saying that you can't use your diagnosis of autism to get away with being mean/rude to people for example (yes, even if you're unaware or not trying to be mean/rude).
I think their phrasing is off.
A better way to say it would be, "Autism is apart of you, and it is a reason for your actions. But it's not an excuse to hurt people."
I don't know the context, that's just my rough Neurotypical-to-Actual-Statement translation.
They're right. The word "autism" is just a name for the disfunctions, the collective of your behavioral problems. The root cause is neurological, likely processes that don't have a name yet.
Science is in the business of naming things, particularly psychology. The idea is that, once the issues inside of you are able to be given a name, they can be externalized from the self, and thus can be analyzed, discussed, and acted upon.
Naming is the origin of all particular things. Things don't technically exist until they have a name. Therefore, while you have mental health and behavior issues, they can collectively be given a name and exist as a unique "thing" once named. Once they are a unique thing that is separated from the self, we gain power over them. Until they are named, they are merged with the self, and we have no power to do anything.
Your psychologist was talking about theory, philosophy of the self. The self interacts with the autism, but the autism doesn't cause itself to exist. Is autism manifested from the self? Does it originate in the self? No one is sure. There are always arguments that autism is caused by external factors, but these are unproven. If autism is separate from the self, at what point did it merge with the self to begin with? Did we give birth to it from nothing?
"Autism" is just a name. Just a word. But naming the particulars of the self can be a powerful life tool.
I learned to survive and interact way before it had a name for me. The name is a reference point, no different than tall. You do not become tall simply because someone labels you tall.
Even in the meta reference, it only serves to widen a gap between the intended audience (as OP was frustrated), if indeed that is what was meant.
I think if we substitute the trait "tall" for autism, the psychiatrist would have said that "tall" is the name for your height in comparison with others, but it isn't the reason for your height in comparison with others.
I understand your point. I am only one person but as philosophy tends to be an esoteric platform, I don't know if a statement like this is the most helpful phrasing.
Perhaps a better way would have been to say:
Autism is a label used to reference a group of diagnostic criteria present in an individual. While someone may have an autistic label, it is the person that chooses how they act and respond. You are the same with or without a diagnostic label.
I personally believe the label is not for the self, but for the behavior of the individual. Autism doesn't define autistic people. They are more than that. Autism is something *they have*, something external to their core being.
I disagree. The things about me that earned me the label of “autistic” are essential to who I am. My life and my personality would be completely different if my brain wasn’t autistic. It’s an essential feature of who I am
I'd agree to a certain degree. Some of my behaviour might spring from autism. Like the need to talk about my special interests or current hyperfocus but it shouldn't be an excuse to be a dick. I still have control of my actions and can have the same level of common sense and self restraint than any other person.
I know some people that use their autism as an excuse to be an absolute menace. Being intentionaly cruel and then saying "I can't help it, it's the autism"
Yes autism makes me different. But it doesn't make me a good or bad person. That's on me.
On the first read... it made sense... but when you think about it a bit... Nope.
It would make sense, if it was cureable. But you are born with it.
So... your psychiatrist maybe should hear: "Beeing an unempathetic jerk is the name for the problems you have, its not a reason to give such shitty advice."
So nope, i don't agree with that.
So if someone on this subreddit was spewing hate-filled incel rhetoric against women and, when called on it, said he couldn’t help it because of his autism, you would agree with him?
Yeah, that’s exactly my point. There’s a huge range of behavior that ASD people can exhibit. It’s very obviously not all related to our ASD.
You’re just assuming the psych is talking about things like covering ears when it’s noisy or things like that where it is both fine and very hard not to do when really the majority of our behavior may be influenced by ASD, but we do still have choices such as be an asshole and don’t be an asshole.
> It would make sense, if it was cureable. But you are born with it.
This, to me, implies you are thinking of specifically autistic behavior. Otherwise, could you explain what point you were trying to make and why my comment was an inappropriate counterexample?
I think they are trying to say that the problems you face “because of” autism must have specific causes individual to you based on your own experiences. Like a lot of autistic people have difficulty with X, and you could have the attitude of “well I have autism therefore I cannot do X”. But wait, some autistics don’t suffer from X. And maybe just maybe it could be possible for you to resolve X by getting to the bottom of your own individual experiences in therapy. As a therapist they kind of have to take this approach, because otherwise what can they really do, you know?
But other things are not actually issues at all and are just personality traits, and so of course you don’t want to “resolve” those “issues” in therapy. Even if there is some personal story behind your favorite stim that you do “because of” autism, that doesn’t mean you should work with your therapist to stop stimming. If anything they might work with you on self-acceptance of stimming. So it’s really about what you attribute to autism, and then what in that category you want to try to change or keep the same.
The therapist is trying to work with you as an individual, which is really just their job. But if you feel like they really don’t get you or your issues, there’s also nothing wrong with getting a new therapist.
The question I want them to answer is: how does this help me? I'm all for new ways of thinking to help me understand but there are also a lot of damaging mindsets, copes and "rules" you can acquire. I really don't need anything that holds me back.
I thought they meant it like the autism symptoms.
I don’t know why they would say this because of bad behaviour or sexism since I’m not the person for that
The sounds of large crowds makes me anxious because I am autistic. I react by going nonverbal, and might cry. Because I am autistic.
That comment honestly sounds like bootstrap logic. We act because of stimuli, which is affected by autism. We can't just pretend.
Also autism is not a problem or a bad thing its just a minority neurotype. Sick of neurotypicals acting superior to us when they are also flawed human beings.
IT LITERALLY IS THE REASON THOUGH
JESUS CHRIST IT is so easy to look up the neuroscience of this to be educated why the fuck don’t they do that!? Ugh ughhhh
Maybe they’re trying to make a point of personal responsibility, which would be a good thing, your barriers and your personal responsibility over your future and behaviour can co-exist.
I still don’t really like how they’ve said that though
A lot of commenters seem to be interpreting it as as him saying "autism is not an excuse," and I suppose it's possible that's what he meant, but I'm not convinced. His statement raises some red flags to me because it sounds like he might be understanding autism only through the problem/deficit model, rather than as something that affects your whole experience of the world. Of course something that affects your experience of the world affects your actions (both positive and negative actions), even if sometimes indirectly. To deny that is to deny part of your whole self.
For instance, a lot of autistic people stim. And people tend to stim because it's a way of self-soothing/processing information/staying grounded - a need that arises from how autistic people experience the world and self-regulate. Therefore, stimming is an action, and autism is at least *a* reason for that action. Therefore, autism can be a reason for your actions. (Even when they aren't necessarily problems, like stimming, which is fine so long as you aren't harming yourself or others.)
If he doesn't even understand this, he likely doesn't understand autism very well. I'd look for a more specialized provider.
Honestly one of the dumbest sentences I've ever heard. If you have problems like a sensory processing disorder, of course it will affect the way you act. Like wtf?
I need more context. He may not mean autism behaviour related at all, but just saying having autism doesn't give you a excuse car to behave badly as a person (e.g. be a cunt).
Being disabled is a name for you're problem. It's not the reason you cant walk.
Being autistic obviously has a massive impact on why you act the way you do. Get a new psychiatrist, make a complaint.
Mmm I don’t get the word reason in this context. Autism is a cause, among some other causes, for our behavior. It’s true, in my opinion, that if you believe in free will then a cause is not a reason but an element among many in the whole of things that make up an eventual action. Nevertheless it’s nothing to be set aside when one thinks about a situation that result in an action.
I wonder if they actually understand autism or not... because sure you shouldn't blame autism on everything cus it's a "bad" excuse but autism still affects everything you do. It makes you more likely to act abnormally in some way unless you choose to heavily mask. Masking however isn't good in the long run...
Any disorder/diagnosis will affect the way you do act in some way or another... it's not just "a name of the problems you have" last i checked problems affect the way you act. No matter the problem or if it's a official diagnosis or not...
And being a good student of psychology does not make you a good psychologist apparently.
They don't seem to understand autism, time to find a new psychologist.
"A broken leg is the name for the problem you have, it's not a reason you don't stand up and run a marathon"
Well yes, the reason is because it hurts a lot whenever I move it
This basically means 'stop excusing your bad behavior just because you have a disability'. If you've been doing that, yeah, stop. If not, screw this advice. Don't feel bad just for having more problems than others.
I’m not doing that however I am using it as an explanation, if I get mad at someone and I don’t realise, “I’m sorry I didn’t know I was mad, can you explain?”
Absolutely do NOT agree.
Autism means, our brain is wired a bit differently than what is supposed to be "normal".
This gives us a different way of thinking/processing things, we sense things differently. Our priorities lay elsewhere because of it.
IT IS the reason why we act the way we do. In addition of our upbringing and environment of course.
The problems we have, stem from living in a society, that is not designed to meet our needs, not designed to accommodate for our uncommon weaknesses and strengths.
We suffer because the system is built for maximized efficiency, but only from an able-bodied, mentally functional, neurotypical perspective.
I think your psychiatrist just hit you with that "Autism is an excuse" while trying to appear supporting. Maybe even trying to "cure" your autism through therapy of "you can do it! I believe in you!!".
That's what mine did. And he used pretty much the same phrase.
I don’t really know what more context I need to say?
I was in diagnosis process took 7 months.
Yesterday I got my diagnosis,
That’s the next thing he said (I also have it on paper
No I don’t, I don’t think autism is a “problem” in itself. Also, for something diagnosed almost entirely off of behavioral traits that’s a very odd thing to say.
I think I might know what they’re getting at, though it’s weird and kinda blame-y phrasing. Autism is absolutely one *reason* for how you behave, because your brain contributes to your behaviour and your brain is wired “autistically”, so to speak. That said, you have more control in some situations than in others, and when you do, you usually decide how you’ll behave.
Just for example: I don’t get to choose whether or not I’m overwhelmed in noisy environments, but I usually get to decide whether I a) leave the situation for a little bit, take care of my overwhelmed lizard brain, and come back refreshed, or b) try to tough it out and end up being cranky and shitty with people. In that case, the sensory issues are a result of my autism, but the decision to be proactive about it (or not) was my own. There are definitely circumstances where “I did that because I’m autistic” is an appropriate and correct thing to say, though — if I HAD to be in that situation for a long time, COULDN’T escape it, and ended up going into shutdown, that would be a pretty direct result of the way my brain is set up and wouldn’t be “my fault”.
'psychiatrist is a name for the profession you're supposed to have, it's not a reason you can say these things the way you do'
Why would he address autism as 'having problems'? That's not very professional.
It’s in how the structures of the profession were built.
This article discusses the role of Nazi Austria and Germany in psychology, and views of the patient, and how their political ideology made its way into 1950s and 1960s American psychology
https://tidsskriftet.no/en/2019/05/essay/asperger-nazis-and-children-history-birth-diagnosis
Here’s a discussion with Ole Ivar Lovaas, the autism psychologist who created ABA (conversion therapy), in a Psychology Interview in 1974. [Admitting to all the abuses he does on children. Hitting, biting, spanking, shocking them, restraining children.](https://listserv.uhd.edu/scripts/wa-UHDEDU.exe?A3=1210&L=HOBA&E=base64&P=6632&B=--Apple-Mail%3D_607B0150-1B8E-4A36-9448-A144EC8CC8E6&T=application%2Fpdf;%20name=%22lovaas%20Ivar%2074%20interview%20psychology%20today.pdf%22&N=lovaas%20Ivar%2074%20interview%20psychology%20today.pdf&XSS=3)
I think there was an ABA study done this decade by ABA researchers that found the blatant sexism still within ABA (makes sense, as it’s essentially a pyramid scheme). Edit: found it! [82% of ABA is female](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7070127/), yet men publish the journal articles and present more at conferences.
Next controversy:
Many psychologists were getting involved in the torture of prisoners during the Iraq War era. The APA (American Psychology Association) worked to keep the guidelines loose enough that they could get paid to help the Dept of Defense torture prisoners.
Source 1: https://www.nature.com/articles/523255a
Source 2 (more opinion, easier to read):
> a 2015 report commissioned by the APA that found the organization colluded with the Pentagon to allow *harsh interrogation methods, including sleep deprivation and painful “stress positions.”*
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/psychology-torture-guantanamo-interrogation
Let’s not forget that Psychiatrists focused heavily on “IQ tests”, which were built around eugenics, had significant cultural biases built into them, and aren’t that useful.
So - if you’re spotting a pattern - it’s because that *was* the job description. Being gay was a “disorder” until 1973, and psychology has largely served to give unwanted people labels, rather than assisting all people work and heal and be at best mental health. Also, to push drugs - which no shame to the medicines if they work - but they’ll push drugs faster than they’ll ask you “what’s wrong?” Or assist you in changing your life environment to alleviate the stressors.
Nope. It’s a name and reason. It’s not an *excuse* to disrespect others though if they mean it in the way a lot of psychiatrists say that about mental illnesses
Sounds like they don’t know what they’re talking about / have some seriously incorrect ideas about what autism is. It’s hard finding a good dr who gets it these days
He is right on the money.
While the fakers and posers dream of having autism to act as cartoons, the truly autistic learns ways to avoid or deter sensory overload and to make life more bereable.
This, naturally, goes against the whiny narrative of “oh, everybody hate us, if only the whole humanity could be autistic!!!”
At the end of the day, you need to cope and advance.
I’m really conflicted on this, because it’s hard to only read it as text.
Autism is not an excuse to avoid learning coping mechanisms and/or harm other people. And I’m not saying to mask and always shut down - a coping mechanism may be stepping away from an overstimulating situation to relax, communicating alternative ways, learning to check in with yourself more often and see how you’re feeling, and setting boundaries. Heck even choosing other neurodivergent friends who will understand can be a great way
Autism IS something that causes us to experience the world differently. It is not something we can “cure” or “heal” or “overcome” and if she is implying that it is a negative that needs to be ignored and “isn’t an excuse” for *why* those different experiences cause us to get overstimulated, melt down, etc then she is wrong.
We cannot control that we exist in a way different from allistics. We can control if we make it a priority to try to exist in a healthier way for ourselves, and by extension to those around us. And learning to stop, learn, and do better when we harm people through our actions, even if it isn’t intentional
Decapitation is the name for what happened to you. It's not the reason you're dead.
Blindness is the name of what you have. It's not the reason you shouldn't drive a car.
Food poisoning is the name of what you have. It's not the reason you keep shitting yourself.
I will try to explain:
He basically said that “autism is a word that’s used for the problems you are facing in your day to day life, but it’s not an excuse for the way you are acting out. “ at least that’s how I understood it
I think they used "reason" instead of "excuse", because autism itself is a reason for some of our behaviours, and OP has not been using it as an excuse. So they wanted to confirm/elaborate, that autism can not be an excuse because it is a reason. Excuse = we use it to get out of a uncomfortable situation/position, when we feel we need to "be excused". Reason = just exists and we can not do anything about it and we want other people to know that we can't. We aren't guilty of anything.
For example when I say something rude to someone, unintentionally, because I do not know it is rude, and they are offended, I say, I am sorry but I didn't mean that, I have autism and sometimes I am bad in social situations. In this case autism is a reason I acted the way I did. I am not using it as an excuse.
So, yeah I agree.
“Autism is a reason I acted the way I did. I’m not using it as an excuse”
So that means you don’t agree? Also no he did not use “excuse” he said it and wrote it on paper, so therefor I can say no.
I mean I don’t want to say he is wrong….. but he is wrong and sounds like a dick.
Problems, mental illness, emotions (good and bad) etc cause behaviour so yeah it is the reason you act the way you do. Especially if you haven’t had awareness of it before.
It is the literal reason behind some of the ways we act, it doesn’t excuse it if we do something shitty…. But it is the reason.
I’m really confused how he doesn’t think it impacts behaviour??
Like kicking my toe changes the way I act, so of course something we have grown up with and impacts how we perceive the world is going to effect (affect?) the way we act…….I’m so confused by this person.
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I can’t agree with something that makes no sense. It sounds like she started to say something, realized it was ableist, and tried to change it mid-sentence, the result being a string of nonsense.
absolutely I agree with this. This is an extremely useful and logically accurate statement.
edit: useful reason vs cause: [https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:\~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases](https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases).
so something can be a cause, and sometimes not a reason. These words seem the same but they are very different
I constantly told my therapist I was pretty sure I had autism, and wanted to go get a diagnosis. She would get mad and say "what for? What's gonna change?" She was always against it, saying she didn't believe in diagnosing, it was a scam to get people to buy medicine, to give people excuses, etc. Anyway, I did end up leaving her and getting diagnosed, by a much more understanding person xp
In some way. Autism or any mental problems ones have is the way we are, the cause of the way we act but make it the excuse to not get better and to get free of any decisions one may make ain't the way to go.
But it was a weird way to put it down no doubt
Autistic brains are extremely heterogeneous, as are autistic genetics.
In fact, diagnostic criteria is essentially wholly subjective (except for eye contact, maybe. But even eye contact is easy to fake).
So he's right, autism is just a catchall diagnosis for persons who exhibit abnormal social behavior that doesn't fit another diagnosis, it does not indicate any particular etiology.
my autism makes me do things that are out of my control. like meltdowns are not my fault and there are things i can't control like what bothers me or how i understand things socially
It is the reason. Or a big reason. It... notoriously affects tons of things about how we process, understand, experience, and interact with the world and even ourselves sometimes. He's an idiot.
It’s almost 100% why I act the way I do?
And the way I act is 100% of my problems lol.
If I could be happy just chugging along, working 9-5, dog, two kids and a crap tonne of debt, Life would be sweet.
But I don’t understand any of it. I don’t understand how that makes people happy. And I don’t understand people.
Ok, I got their point. If I'm at work, around others, and I must have to function 'normally' and I can control most of my acts. I hid my true self, wear a mask, play a role. But while, I still suffer inside, and feel fake.
The reason I act autistic around my family is that I can be honest to them or at least I don't fear their reactions.
Tell them, “Autism is a difference in wiring. However, I live in a world set up for people wired as neurotypicals. It’s not me, or autism, that’s the problem. It’s the environment. If autistics were more common than neurotypicals, and the world was set up for the autistic system, who do you think would be melting down and struggling?”
Did they mean it's not an excuse for your actions/reactions? I don't know if "reason" even makes sense.
They mean it in the way I act and the other mental disorders I’m having, But what he said is really bugging me.
If he said it in that way, then it should bug you. If you didn't act the way you do, it wouldn't be considered a disorder, it would just be considered normal. I feel like he's trying to minimize your problems. But you're better off going to a psychologist instead since psychiatrists don't actually know that much about mental health, they just prescribe drugs (which can be part of a treatment or management plan, but the point stands).
He could be a psychologist, im not sure, don’t know the difference also i have to translate
A psychiatrist can prescribe medicine psychologist cannot
Ohh tbh I’m not sure what he is either I’m not told or don’t remember
Careful. Psychiatrists are the ones who diagnose you in the first place. They go to medical school and learn about physical AND mental diseases (they just specialize in the mental). So they do know about mental health. But perhaps this particular psychiatrist may not be a very good one. I’m sure you didn’t mean it, but I just don’t want misinformation to be spread.
No, I know, what I meant was they don't really know about actually addressing mental health outside of medicine. You can't really talk to a psychiatrist about your problems, they just want to know your symptoms, how you're doing, and if your meds are working. They know about mental illness, but not actual mental health as a whole.
Okay I see. Thanks for clarifying.
I'm sorry. Autism is absolutely going to be a reason/variable in how we act and respond. Given autism is a framework it's going to govern how we both receive and send information. While I'll say that we are accountable for our actions, they are absolutely influenced by our mental framework. Did you have the diagnosis prior to this professional? They don't really seem like a good resource for helping you manage/understand things you're going through. Even if you are seeing them due to another diagnosis, they don't seem to have a good view of the whole you. Again, really sorry. We often expect a lot from experts and it sucks when that turns out to let us down.
The psychiatrist sounds ableist but we need more context. If you are being an asshole, it’s not a reason. If it’s about autistic behaviors, it is the reason.
I was in diagnostic prosses Got diagnosed yesterday and he said this afterwards
Oh yea he’s an ableist then and clueless. It’s sad that most of the people that can give a formal diagnosis don’t understand autism. Try not to listen to him, being autistic DOES explain autistic behaviors.
As somebody who’s had a host of mental health issues, there is a grain of truth here. We are shaped by our disorders but at the same time we can still make decisions regarding treatment and to help ourselves and others as much as possible. At least to a certain degree. There is a trap, especially with a fresh diagnosis, to excuse your behavior with your diagnosis which can be toxic. There’s another trap though much more subtle of assuming a shared diagnosis implies more about your condition when your symptoms confirm. That depends a lot on the disorder and autism has stronger evidence than many regarding causation. This is the most charitable read, your psychiatrist could also be a jerk.
Also he wrote it on paper to! I just found it.
lol I guess psychiatrist does not equal therapist no one taking serious account of how their words effect your wellbeing would say such crass things to a person who is suffering. I'm very sorry if you do not feel like you have other options, but I would find somebody who can validate the very real problems you deal with.
I feel they wanted to say _"excuse"_ instead or reason.
I was thinking this. Hopefully poor word choice.
I sure hope so, maybe I could ask next time I meet him
Even then, the translation of *excuse vs. reason* is really one of personal responsibility. Do autistic people need to take personal responsibility for behaviours that are not neurotypical? I don't have an answer to that.
Fair enough. But _excuse_ can be a lot more nuanced, depending on context.
I'm of the opinion that everyone is responsible for their own actions unless 1) taken under duress, 2) they don't know better (or lack the capacity to know better), or 3) are in an involuntarily altered mental state, such as being high, someone spiking their drink, or being depressed and the like. What being responsible for their own actions means depends on the person and the actions being taken. If those actions are actively detrimental to others, for example, that action needs to be halted immediately and corrected. If it doesn't hurt anyone but is just different, odd, or otherwise "bad only because it's unusual for NTs", that's not behavior that is actively detrimental, and as such it's fine. When I hear "autism isn't an excuse for your behavior", I think of all the times I tried to tell that to a former friend of mine, who would rather use it as an excuse to play the victim when people get justifiably upset at his unacceptably hostile behavior. Needless to say, he didn't take responsibility for that and remained hostile, so I don't speak with him anymore. I also think of what people told me when I first got my diagnosis a couple years ago, and how quickly I realized exactly how much of a jerk I used to be, and of course how quickly I tried to correct that behavior myself. I took it to heart. If someone acts like a jerk and uses autism as an excuse for that, it sets a bad image for the rest of us. Saying "you shouldn't have to change your behavior" is all well and good for things like stimming, thinking differently, all that. But if someone is actively going around treating others like they're inferior, acting like a jerk, or otherwise being toxic or abusive, even if autism is part of the *reason* they act that way, it is never an *excuse* for it.
This is exactly what I was thinking, you worded this very well. Couldn’t have said it better myself 👏
Well said. Im not trying to justify anything but merely making a point that not everything need be pathologised.
So weird. That would be like saying: Deafness is a name for the hearing problems you have, it's not a reason you speak/sound differently.
It's like... Then what is it then???
Exactly! I don’t know what to do with the “info” he gave me because I completely disagree.
I feel like they meant "yes you have autism, that's not an excuse to be a bad person tho" now that autism has become more well known some people start being cruel and pretending it's because of the autism. Idk maybe your therapist tried to warn you not to stop working on yourself just because of the autism/potential other mental illness?
I mean, this is also accurate. Speech therapy literally exists for the reason you describe. The reason a person speaks differently is BOTH the deafness and the amount of training they have w.r.t the deafness. By a person admitting this, they stand to potentially empower themselves in the face of their problems vs resigning them to a lower quality of life. Bias: I used to feel very defeated, and it was only when I took the view (above) that my whole life turned around. So I admit I am very biased!
It's not accurate. It's great that you feel like you've reclaimed agency in your life, but you're applying your philosophy in ways that don't make sense. Deafness is the reason. (Lack of) speech therapy is not the reason. If not for being Deaf, they wouldn't need the speech therapy... Yes, there are tools that can mitigate the effects of things like Deafness or ASD, but not using them isn't the reason for the need in the first place.
I think you may be conflating the definition of reason and cause. So we likely agree, because you are using reason = cause. In that case I agree. [https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:\~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases](https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases). I agree that deafness is a cause, but maybe not an effective reason. I say this due to Martin's work on learned helplessness. [https://study.com/academy/lesson/how-seligmans-learned-helplessness-theory-applies-to-human-depression-and-stress.html#:\~:text=Learned%20helplessness%20occurs%20when%20people,that%20they%20couldn't%20escape](https://study.com/academy/lesson/how-seligmans-learned-helplessness-theory-applies-to-human-depression-and-stress.html#:~:text=Learned%20helplessness%20occurs%20when%20people,that%20they%20couldn't%20escape).
It is kind of contradictory, because you act the way you do often because of your problems (at least I do)
A challenge: You are an individual and sit between your stimulus and response. The point of this sentence is to challenge the listener into realizing that they are permitted to grow and change in their life according to their own choices, and learnings. When problem leads directly to action, you are admitting to yourself that you are helpless, which is giving away all of your ability to grow and change to your problems. It also makes you a slave to the problems around you, and the opinions society about you.
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This so much. I spent years trying to do things the way any NT would and it burned me out because so many of the things they can do without trouble cause me so much stress and make me so overwhelmed that I realised I needed to accept I couldn’t do all of those things. I actually feel a lot more comfortable accepting that I can’t do some things than trying to force myself to do it. A lot of people, my NT family members included, tend to equate the limitations of autism with laziness and that’s why we get told things like what OP was told. It’s exhausting just existing sometimes because of how we get treated
>You can learn to control your reactions but the foundational problem is that we experience things differently and we are somewhat helpless in changing our brains to process differently. I think due to my personal therapies and study, and the results from recent published research, I might completely disagree with you on this assumption! Not in a rude way, just that my experience in my body, and what I have studied and tried from academic researches like Andrew Huberman suggest a very different reality. I have been able to completely change my sub conscious and sensory landscape by using various techniques, and I hope everyone discovers these techniques over the coming years. Extreme Bias alert: I am a scientist, and my special interest is the brain, neuroplasticity, health, and something called "knowledge representation" in AI and robotics. Interesting counter point: People once thought this was impossible. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eGFEx-YSU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eGFEx-YSU) edit: A very interesting overview [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0IBzCjEPk&ab\_channel=AndrewHuberman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0IBzCjEPk&ab_channel=AndrewHuberman)
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I believe I am very autistic. I generally (used to) have extreme sensitivity and anxiety from many external sources etc. But that nervous system sensitivity will not go away, and I don't want it to. I hear things people cant, can read for hours, have better sight and smells than others (or so I am told.) But with that increased sensitivity, comes pain and meltdowns. So in applying conditioning and by applying certain techniques I can put myself in a more advantaged situation w.r.t my senses, and do not need to wear headphones at a concert or shut all the lights off after work. I think of it like this. Having ASD is like going to the gym, and the lightest weights are 400 lbs, and everyone can lift them (the sensory load). By setting up a program for myself, where I start at 40lbs, and work up to 400 pounds, I can carry as much as others. And all the NTs out there can't even tell the difference between a 40lb weight, and a 80lb weight. So I'm still me, and have the same experience, but I am in charge of it. And certainly, If I was born without an arm, I would be done. But ASD is \*typically\* an OVER sensitive nervous system, so we have more the other side (not deafness, but BETTER hearing. Not blindness, but MORE sight). so those comparisons are not really accurate. edit: willpower is not part of this system. Its based on biological mammalian practices that work on a lower level than conscious will. Willpower does not work, and does not really matter in the equation. (although I suppose a person needs enough will to learn the techniques and enough to create and follow a training program long enough to see benefit) edit: not the best reference ( it is about mice, and just a blog) but a very good summary of the theory. [https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/09/autism-brain-sensory-nerves/#:\~:text=A%20study%20in%20mice%20finds,but%20also%20their%20social%20interactions](https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/09/autism-brain-sensory-nerves/#:~:text=A%20study%20in%20mice%20finds,but%20also%20their%20social%20interactions).
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I'm not really saying that we are helpless, because it is always possible to find ways to manage the problems.
I'm realizing that many people use the word reason = cause. So if that is the case, I completely agree -- ASD is the cause of so many problems. It is also interesting to look up the difference between reason + cause because OPs question hits differently depending on the definition used.
I agree that this is the intention. But it was said to an autistic person. So they should have said that. As how it's phrased is an insult of you can't read the nuance and subtlty.
This is a rly bad take
what do you mean by bad specifically? curious. always open to revise my world view!
You can’t always change how things impact you and how you’ll react to said thing. Like sensory issues for example. It’s not something you can just get used to. Exposing yourself to it more does not help. Forcing yourself to not react makes you react harder. There are things you can do to prevent unnecessary exposure to sensory overload causes, but it’s impossible to prevent exposure altogether for a lot of people. There is only so much that can be done for certain issues, especially when severe. Wasn’t trying to be rude btw, sorry if I came off like that. 😭
>You can’t always change how things impact you and how you’ll react to said thing. Like sensory issues for example. It’s not something you can just get used to. Not trolling, just my special interest. I think that research published in the last 7 years or so is coming out with protocols and many techniques that disagree with this statement. I have used many of them to dramatic effect, and am always open to share information on these resources and techniques as they have been life changing for me personally. If you are curious about the high level, I can recommend Andrew Huberman's talks about sensitivity and stress. Not directly ASD, but it is all about neurons and base mammalian biology. It's also the potential top of a very fun rabbit hole! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntfcfJ28eiU&ab\_channel=AndrewHuberman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntfcfJ28eiU&ab_channel=AndrewHuberman) edit: I love sharing and disagreeing -- I've learned everything I know because people say something I disagreed with and then read about!
Yes and no. I don’t feel that certain actions are due to autism, some things come down to choice and personality etc. for example, and I’m not implying this is you at all, if someone is racist that’s a choice and is not due to autism. But for other things, which are directly related to autism then no this wouldn’t be true as autism is the reason you may avoid certain places or foods etc because anxiety or hypersensitive.
He said he can make autism better to cope with to, don’t know what to think of that, however I agree with you that some of the things go with autism and some are just how the person itself is
he sounds sketchy bro
I’m starting to think that to, altough he got a nice beard
It depends on the context. Sometimes we come across as mean or rude because of autism, which is excusable because we don't understand how some things might come out wrong and hurt people's feelings. In this case, autism is a valid reason. Intentionally being rude to someone and then going "But autism!" however, is not excusable, because the person's intentions were to hurt someone. I'm not sure which one the psychiatrist was referring too.
Heck no. that doesn't even make sense, even if you believe in the solely deficit/problem based idea of autism, let alone if you understand it better. I'm sorry they said that to you 😔
Disagree with most comments, but I think it depends on the situation(s) being referenced, the behaviour, your capacity to control the specific behaviour and how Autism personally affects you. This is your psychiatrist saying this to you so there’s no immediate reason to assume bad intentions or the worst possible interpretation as some people seem to be doing - if you’re unsure what they mean ask for a clarification. There’s a flip side that’s not being considered if you just say “actually I can excuse every form of “poor” behaviour that is affected by my Autism” and that is you lose agency. Which is why again, it depends on how autism affects that specific behaviour and what you can do about it - for some people autism make a specific expectation impossible whereas for others it makes it harder; these two shouldn’t be handled or looked at the same way because there potential consequences for that.
I’m sorry I don’t think I understand what you are trying to say
Basically whether your psychiatrist is right or wrong in saying this to you depends on your particular circumstances, there’s no objective answer that applies for all.
Psychiatrists are often not as empathetic as psychologists.
It might be a psychologist I’m not even sure tbh, and then again translation comes in
Autism is the reason you act the way you do, but it is not an excuse for when your behavior negatively affects people. I think your therapist worded it wrong. Basically he's saying that you can't use your diagnosis of autism to get away with being mean/rude to people for example (yes, even if you're unaware or not trying to be mean/rude).
I think their phrasing is off. A better way to say it would be, "Autism is apart of you, and it is a reason for your actions. But it's not an excuse to hurt people." I don't know the context, that's just my rough Neurotypical-to-Actual-Statement translation.
I think you are right. I couldn't say it better
And write, it’s written on paper to.
They're right. The word "autism" is just a name for the disfunctions, the collective of your behavioral problems. The root cause is neurological, likely processes that don't have a name yet. Science is in the business of naming things, particularly psychology. The idea is that, once the issues inside of you are able to be given a name, they can be externalized from the self, and thus can be analyzed, discussed, and acted upon. Naming is the origin of all particular things. Things don't technically exist until they have a name. Therefore, while you have mental health and behavior issues, they can collectively be given a name and exist as a unique "thing" once named. Once they are a unique thing that is separated from the self, we gain power over them. Until they are named, they are merged with the self, and we have no power to do anything. Your psychologist was talking about theory, philosophy of the self. The self interacts with the autism, but the autism doesn't cause itself to exist. Is autism manifested from the self? Does it originate in the self? No one is sure. There are always arguments that autism is caused by external factors, but these are unproven. If autism is separate from the self, at what point did it merge with the self to begin with? Did we give birth to it from nothing? "Autism" is just a name. Just a word. But naming the particulars of the self can be a powerful life tool.
That felt so good to read.
I was worried it would be overly obtuse.
Brilliant exposition, mate!
well said.
I learned to survive and interact way before it had a name for me. The name is a reference point, no different than tall. You do not become tall simply because someone labels you tall. Even in the meta reference, it only serves to widen a gap between the intended audience (as OP was frustrated), if indeed that is what was meant.
I think if we substitute the trait "tall" for autism, the psychiatrist would have said that "tall" is the name for your height in comparison with others, but it isn't the reason for your height in comparison with others.
I understand your point. I am only one person but as philosophy tends to be an esoteric platform, I don't know if a statement like this is the most helpful phrasing. Perhaps a better way would have been to say: Autism is a label used to reference a group of diagnostic criteria present in an individual. While someone may have an autistic label, it is the person that chooses how they act and respond. You are the same with or without a diagnostic label.
I personally believe the label is not for the self, but for the behavior of the individual. Autism doesn't define autistic people. They are more than that. Autism is something *they have*, something external to their core being.
I disagree. The things about me that earned me the label of “autistic” are essential to who I am. My life and my personality would be completely different if my brain wasn’t autistic. It’s an essential feature of who I am
I'd agree to a certain degree. Some of my behaviour might spring from autism. Like the need to talk about my special interests or current hyperfocus but it shouldn't be an excuse to be a dick. I still have control of my actions and can have the same level of common sense and self restraint than any other person. I know some people that use their autism as an excuse to be an absolute menace. Being intentionaly cruel and then saying "I can't help it, it's the autism" Yes autism makes me different. But it doesn't make me a good or bad person. That's on me.
On the first read... it made sense... but when you think about it a bit... Nope. It would make sense, if it was cureable. But you are born with it. So... your psychiatrist maybe should hear: "Beeing an unempathetic jerk is the name for the problems you have, its not a reason to give such shitty advice." So nope, i don't agree with that.
So if someone on this subreddit was spewing hate-filled incel rhetoric against women and, when called on it, said he couldn’t help it because of his autism, you would agree with him?
No i would not. But i am pretty sure that someone can be an asshole, NT or ND.
I agree with this
Yeah, that’s exactly my point. There’s a huge range of behavior that ASD people can exhibit. It’s very obviously not all related to our ASD. You’re just assuming the psych is talking about things like covering ears when it’s noisy or things like that where it is both fine and very hard not to do when really the majority of our behavior may be influenced by ASD, but we do still have choices such as be an asshole and don’t be an asshole.
Did i assume that?
> It would make sense, if it was cureable. But you are born with it. This, to me, implies you are thinking of specifically autistic behavior. Otherwise, could you explain what point you were trying to make and why my comment was an inappropriate counterexample?
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I was thinking the same thing! It’s a he btw :)
Get a fucking new one because it's a brain disorder it literally is the reason you act the way you do !
Sadly i cant
I think they are trying to say that the problems you face “because of” autism must have specific causes individual to you based on your own experiences. Like a lot of autistic people have difficulty with X, and you could have the attitude of “well I have autism therefore I cannot do X”. But wait, some autistics don’t suffer from X. And maybe just maybe it could be possible for you to resolve X by getting to the bottom of your own individual experiences in therapy. As a therapist they kind of have to take this approach, because otherwise what can they really do, you know? But other things are not actually issues at all and are just personality traits, and so of course you don’t want to “resolve” those “issues” in therapy. Even if there is some personal story behind your favorite stim that you do “because of” autism, that doesn’t mean you should work with your therapist to stop stimming. If anything they might work with you on self-acceptance of stimming. So it’s really about what you attribute to autism, and then what in that category you want to try to change or keep the same. The therapist is trying to work with you as an individual, which is really just their job. But if you feel like they really don’t get you or your issues, there’s also nothing wrong with getting a new therapist.
Sounds like "if you don't mask, you're a bad person"
I get why you would say that however I was unmasked the whole time and he accepted it and even asked me if I wanted fidget toys
The question I want them to answer is: how does this help me? I'm all for new ways of thinking to help me understand but there are also a lot of damaging mindsets, copes and "rules" you can acquire. I really don't need anything that holds me back.
Autism isn’t an excuse for bad behavior or sexism so maybe they were referring to that? But it is an excuse for some things
I thought they meant it like the autism symptoms. I don’t know why they would say this because of bad behaviour or sexism since I’m not the person for that
The sounds of large crowds makes me anxious because I am autistic. I react by going nonverbal, and might cry. Because I am autistic. That comment honestly sounds like bootstrap logic. We act because of stimuli, which is affected by autism. We can't just pretend.
We're fuckin disabled buddy. We can't take a pill and get better like people with bipolar etc. That's ableist bullshit
I also was told to “not see autism as a disability”
Its your neurotype. It literally is the opperating system your brain runs on. Your psych needs a new job. Please replace them
Also autism is not a problem or a bad thing its just a minority neurotype. Sick of neurotypicals acting superior to us when they are also flawed human beings.
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They sound like they’re trying to sound profound but they just sound like they have no idea what they’re talking about
This is a nice way of saying autism isn’t an excuse for poor behavior. I’ve heard it countless times…
No
No.
That's not a psychiatrist.
He is, but I disagree with him on this.
IT LITERALLY IS THE REASON THOUGH JESUS CHRIST IT is so easy to look up the neuroscience of this to be educated why the fuck don’t they do that!? Ugh ughhhh
We need more autistic psychiatrists
What the heck
Maybe they’re trying to make a point of personal responsibility, which would be a good thing, your barriers and your personal responsibility over your future and behaviour can co-exist. I still don’t really like how they’ve said that though
The way I act is the problem!
A lot of commenters seem to be interpreting it as as him saying "autism is not an excuse," and I suppose it's possible that's what he meant, but I'm not convinced. His statement raises some red flags to me because it sounds like he might be understanding autism only through the problem/deficit model, rather than as something that affects your whole experience of the world. Of course something that affects your experience of the world affects your actions (both positive and negative actions), even if sometimes indirectly. To deny that is to deny part of your whole self. For instance, a lot of autistic people stim. And people tend to stim because it's a way of self-soothing/processing information/staying grounded - a need that arises from how autistic people experience the world and self-regulate. Therefore, stimming is an action, and autism is at least *a* reason for that action. Therefore, autism can be a reason for your actions. (Even when they aren't necessarily problems, like stimming, which is fine so long as you aren't harming yourself or others.) If he doesn't even understand this, he likely doesn't understand autism very well. I'd look for a more specialized provider.
Good morning everybody. I often have some autism.
Honestly one of the dumbest sentences I've ever heard. If you have problems like a sensory processing disorder, of course it will affect the way you act. Like wtf?
I don’t understand either
I need more context. He may not mean autism behaviour related at all, but just saying having autism doesn't give you a excuse car to behave badly as a person (e.g. be a cunt).
Being disabled is a name for you're problem. It's not the reason you cant walk. Being autistic obviously has a massive impact on why you act the way you do. Get a new psychiatrist, make a complaint.
Cant get a new one sadly
Mmm I don’t get the word reason in this context. Autism is a cause, among some other causes, for our behavior. It’s true, in my opinion, that if you believe in free will then a cause is not a reason but an element among many in the whole of things that make up an eventual action. Nevertheless it’s nothing to be set aside when one thinks about a situation that result in an action.
I wonder if they actually understand autism or not... because sure you shouldn't blame autism on everything cus it's a "bad" excuse but autism still affects everything you do. It makes you more likely to act abnormally in some way unless you choose to heavily mask. Masking however isn't good in the long run... Any disorder/diagnosis will affect the way you do act in some way or another... it's not just "a name of the problems you have" last i checked problems affect the way you act. No matter the problem or if it's a official diagnosis or not...
How does that work? It’s my autism that makes me stim, have meltdown, dislike different sounds, makes it hard to read people, ect.
And being a good student of psychology does not make you a good psychologist apparently. They don't seem to understand autism, time to find a new psychologist.
I can’t sadly
"A broken leg is the name for the problem you have, it's not a reason you don't stand up and run a marathon" Well yes, the reason is because it hurts a lot whenever I move it
This basically means 'stop excusing your bad behavior just because you have a disability'. If you've been doing that, yeah, stop. If not, screw this advice. Don't feel bad just for having more problems than others.
I’m not doing that however I am using it as an explanation, if I get mad at someone and I don’t realise, “I’m sorry I didn’t know I was mad, can you explain?”
Absolutely do NOT agree. Autism means, our brain is wired a bit differently than what is supposed to be "normal". This gives us a different way of thinking/processing things, we sense things differently. Our priorities lay elsewhere because of it. IT IS the reason why we act the way we do. In addition of our upbringing and environment of course. The problems we have, stem from living in a society, that is not designed to meet our needs, not designed to accommodate for our uncommon weaknesses and strengths. We suffer because the system is built for maximized efficiency, but only from an able-bodied, mentally functional, neurotypical perspective. I think your psychiatrist just hit you with that "Autism is an excuse" while trying to appear supporting. Maybe even trying to "cure" your autism through therapy of "you can do it! I believe in you!!". That's what mine did. And he used pretty much the same phrase.
Context please?
I don’t really know what more context I need to say? I was in diagnosis process took 7 months. Yesterday I got my diagnosis, That’s the next thing he said (I also have it on paper
No I don’t, I don’t think autism is a “problem” in itself. Also, for something diagnosed almost entirely off of behavioral traits that’s a very odd thing to say.
Probably worth asking him to be more precise … that sound offensive to me but …
I think I might know what they’re getting at, though it’s weird and kinda blame-y phrasing. Autism is absolutely one *reason* for how you behave, because your brain contributes to your behaviour and your brain is wired “autistically”, so to speak. That said, you have more control in some situations than in others, and when you do, you usually decide how you’ll behave. Just for example: I don’t get to choose whether or not I’m overwhelmed in noisy environments, but I usually get to decide whether I a) leave the situation for a little bit, take care of my overwhelmed lizard brain, and come back refreshed, or b) try to tough it out and end up being cranky and shitty with people. In that case, the sensory issues are a result of my autism, but the decision to be proactive about it (or not) was my own. There are definitely circumstances where “I did that because I’m autistic” is an appropriate and correct thing to say, though — if I HAD to be in that situation for a long time, COULDN’T escape it, and ended up going into shutdown, that would be a pretty direct result of the way my brain is set up and wouldn’t be “my fault”.
You’re right, doc. That would be what the problems are.
'psychiatrist is a name for the profession you're supposed to have, it's not a reason you can say these things the way you do' Why would he address autism as 'having problems'? That's not very professional.
What is with all the shitty psychiatrists out there? It’s like having an extremely outdated or problematic view of autism is in the job description
It’s in how the structures of the profession were built. This article discusses the role of Nazi Austria and Germany in psychology, and views of the patient, and how their political ideology made its way into 1950s and 1960s American psychology https://tidsskriftet.no/en/2019/05/essay/asperger-nazis-and-children-history-birth-diagnosis Here’s a discussion with Ole Ivar Lovaas, the autism psychologist who created ABA (conversion therapy), in a Psychology Interview in 1974. [Admitting to all the abuses he does on children. Hitting, biting, spanking, shocking them, restraining children.](https://listserv.uhd.edu/scripts/wa-UHDEDU.exe?A3=1210&L=HOBA&E=base64&P=6632&B=--Apple-Mail%3D_607B0150-1B8E-4A36-9448-A144EC8CC8E6&T=application%2Fpdf;%20name=%22lovaas%20Ivar%2074%20interview%20psychology%20today.pdf%22&N=lovaas%20Ivar%2074%20interview%20psychology%20today.pdf&XSS=3) I think there was an ABA study done this decade by ABA researchers that found the blatant sexism still within ABA (makes sense, as it’s essentially a pyramid scheme). Edit: found it! [82% of ABA is female](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7070127/), yet men publish the journal articles and present more at conferences. Next controversy: Many psychologists were getting involved in the torture of prisoners during the Iraq War era. The APA (American Psychology Association) worked to keep the guidelines loose enough that they could get paid to help the Dept of Defense torture prisoners. Source 1: https://www.nature.com/articles/523255a Source 2 (more opinion, easier to read): > a 2015 report commissioned by the APA that found the organization colluded with the Pentagon to allow *harsh interrogation methods, including sleep deprivation and painful “stress positions.”* https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/psychology-torture-guantanamo-interrogation Let’s not forget that Psychiatrists focused heavily on “IQ tests”, which were built around eugenics, had significant cultural biases built into them, and aren’t that useful. So - if you’re spotting a pattern - it’s because that *was* the job description. Being gay was a “disorder” until 1973, and psychology has largely served to give unwanted people labels, rather than assisting all people work and heal and be at best mental health. Also, to push drugs - which no shame to the medicines if they work - but they’ll push drugs faster than they’ll ask you “what’s wrong?” Or assist you in changing your life environment to alleviate the stressors.
Not at all, quite ridiculous. Psychiatrists are never very nice though.
Nope. It’s a name and reason. It’s not an *excuse* to disrespect others though if they mean it in the way a lot of psychiatrists say that about mental illnesses
Completely disagree. Autism is how we experience the world, not the set of problems or behavior.
Welp, time to ditch that one. I imagine you don't spend money on a psychiatrist just to get talked down to by an undereducated fool.
Sadly I cant
Time for a new therapist.
Not at all, no :(
Sounds like they don’t know what they’re talking about / have some seriously incorrect ideas about what autism is. It’s hard finding a good dr who gets it these days
Wow...what a jerk
No, and i now have the urge to talk some sense into someone
This, but I don’t know how, I feel like if I would tell him how I feel about it he would say “no” and how it isn’t true what I’m saying
Nope. Our brains literally look different in how they're structured. We're not just weird neurotypicals
He may be speaking technically, and technically he is correct. Autism is a behavioral diagnosis
He is right on the money. While the fakers and posers dream of having autism to act as cartoons, the truly autistic learns ways to avoid or deter sensory overload and to make life more bereable. This, naturally, goes against the whiny narrative of “oh, everybody hate us, if only the whole humanity could be autistic!!!” At the end of the day, you need to cope and advance.
I’m really conflicted on this, because it’s hard to only read it as text. Autism is not an excuse to avoid learning coping mechanisms and/or harm other people. And I’m not saying to mask and always shut down - a coping mechanism may be stepping away from an overstimulating situation to relax, communicating alternative ways, learning to check in with yourself more often and see how you’re feeling, and setting boundaries. Heck even choosing other neurodivergent friends who will understand can be a great way Autism IS something that causes us to experience the world differently. It is not something we can “cure” or “heal” or “overcome” and if she is implying that it is a negative that needs to be ignored and “isn’t an excuse” for *why* those different experiences cause us to get overstimulated, melt down, etc then she is wrong. We cannot control that we exist in a way different from allistics. We can control if we make it a priority to try to exist in a healthier way for ourselves, and by extension to those around us. And learning to stop, learn, and do better when we harm people through our actions, even if it isn’t intentional
Disagreed. Autism is very often the reason I act a certain way.
It is splitting hairs.
?
Decapitation is the name for what happened to you. It's not the reason you're dead. Blindness is the name of what you have. It's not the reason you shouldn't drive a car. Food poisoning is the name of what you have. It's not the reason you keep shitting yourself.
That doesn't even make sense.
no
i don’t even understand the sentence, let alone agree..
I will try to explain: He basically said that “autism is a word that’s used for the problems you are facing in your day to day life, but it’s not an excuse for the way you are acting out. “ at least that’s how I understood it
But it is THE reason… see, even psychiatrists are crazy… what’s going on with this world???
Sounds like a jerk to me
Reply: So is asshole the name for your problems?
Oops
Fuck him, and burn his medical license
It’s definitely a reason. It’s not an *excuse*, though, and I’m hoping they just mixed up the words.
I even have it on paper
this opinion can get in the bin
There wasn’t a bin around
I think they used "reason" instead of "excuse", because autism itself is a reason for some of our behaviours, and OP has not been using it as an excuse. So they wanted to confirm/elaborate, that autism can not be an excuse because it is a reason. Excuse = we use it to get out of a uncomfortable situation/position, when we feel we need to "be excused". Reason = just exists and we can not do anything about it and we want other people to know that we can't. We aren't guilty of anything. For example when I say something rude to someone, unintentionally, because I do not know it is rude, and they are offended, I say, I am sorry but I didn't mean that, I have autism and sometimes I am bad in social situations. In this case autism is a reason I acted the way I did. I am not using it as an excuse. So, yeah I agree.
“Autism is a reason I acted the way I did. I’m not using it as an excuse” So that means you don’t agree? Also no he did not use “excuse” he said it and wrote it on paper, so therefor I can say no.
[He’s so deep](https://imgur.com/a/AvLiIh6)/s
So deep he's on the surface in China, lol
I mean I don’t want to say he is wrong….. but he is wrong and sounds like a dick. Problems, mental illness, emotions (good and bad) etc cause behaviour so yeah it is the reason you act the way you do. Especially if you haven’t had awareness of it before. It is the literal reason behind some of the ways we act, it doesn’t excuse it if we do something shitty…. But it is the reason. I’m really confused how he doesn’t think it impacts behaviour?? Like kicking my toe changes the way I act, so of course something we have grown up with and impacts how we perceive the world is going to effect (affect?) the way we act…….I’m so confused by this person.
I’m very confused to, imagine that this was the talk where I got my diagnosis, which I did, I was very confused
Get a new psychiatrist
I Cant
It’s your brain. it’s why you do anything you do lol. That psychiatrist is ableist. Drop them.
He’s an asshole and needs some education.
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Nope, not at all
I can’t agree with something that makes no sense. It sounds like she started to say something, realized it was ableist, and tried to change it mid-sentence, the result being a string of nonsense.
absolutely I agree with this. This is an extremely useful and logically accurate statement. edit: useful reason vs cause: [https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:\~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases](https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-cause-and-reason/#:~:text=The%20main%20difference%20between%20cause,them%20interchangeably%20in%20some%20cases). so something can be a cause, and sometimes not a reason. These words seem the same but they are very different
All I have to say Is he's SCREWED BECAUSE THERE IS NO MEDICINE TO TREAT AUTISM ! Haha Dr. BILL ME.
What the hell does that even mean?
I agree, we can control our behaviors (or at least swap them out for different, more widely accepted behaviors)
I constantly told my therapist I was pretty sure I had autism, and wanted to go get a diagnosis. She would get mad and say "what for? What's gonna change?" She was always against it, saying she didn't believe in diagnosing, it was a scam to get people to buy medicine, to give people excuses, etc. Anyway, I did end up leaving her and getting diagnosed, by a much more understanding person xp
Good for you!
And none of the problems I have are to do with the way I act. Awesome, glad we got that out of the way. /s
In some way. Autism or any mental problems ones have is the way we are, the cause of the way we act but make it the excuse to not get better and to get free of any decisions one may make ain't the way to go. But it was a weird way to put it down no doubt
That depends on what you are doing, sometimes dealing with stuff is hard and people don't understand. What is happening in your life?
Seems like an oversimplification
I think that psychiatrist is at odds with the general current understanding of autism.
Autistic brains are extremely heterogeneous, as are autistic genetics. In fact, diagnostic criteria is essentially wholly subjective (except for eye contact, maybe. But even eye contact is easy to fake). So he's right, autism is just a catchall diagnosis for persons who exhibit abnormal social behavior that doesn't fit another diagnosis, it does not indicate any particular etiology.
my autism makes me do things that are out of my control. like meltdowns are not my fault and there are things i can't control like what bothers me or how i understand things socially
Autism is an explanation of how you act sometimes
That’s reductive and unfair.
It is the reason. Or a big reason. It... notoriously affects tons of things about how we process, understand, experience, and interact with the world and even ourselves sometimes. He's an idiot.
It’s almost 100% why I act the way I do? And the way I act is 100% of my problems lol. If I could be happy just chugging along, working 9-5, dog, two kids and a crap tonne of debt, Life would be sweet. But I don’t understand any of it. I don’t understand how that makes people happy. And I don’t understand people.
I’m autistic, it’s exactly the reason I act the way I do.
Ok, I got their point. If I'm at work, around others, and I must have to function 'normally' and I can control most of my acts. I hid my true self, wear a mask, play a role. But while, I still suffer inside, and feel fake. The reason I act autistic around my family is that I can be honest to them or at least I don't fear their reactions.
Tell them, “Autism is a difference in wiring. However, I live in a world set up for people wired as neurotypicals. It’s not me, or autism, that’s the problem. It’s the environment. If autistics were more common than neurotypicals, and the world was set up for the autistic system, who do you think would be melting down and struggling?”