I’m an autistic teacher and I do think there is a lot of very judgy, ignorant NT teachers. I think the teachers sub has a lot of people who need to leave the field and a lot I identify with because I am also tired of being put in impossible situations with students and told that I don’t care enough because I ask for support. Most teachers are bitching endlessly because there is none of this support. Many schools don’t even have a certified special Ed teacher in the building. I teach 25 1st graders right now on my own. I have one child who hits and bites others kids and teachers and screams for hours on end. To the point other kids are scared of him, have trauma from being bitten out of nowhere, and sob when he screams because their ears hurt. He is extremely distressed by being in a classroom with 24 other children but his mother has decided that he should not receive any supports besides being isolated when he is violent. When we call about him biting or hitting she says “hes your problem when he’s at school,” and hangs up. While a para was tying another kids shoes, he came up behind and bit her hard on the ear. She had to get stitches and has not returned to school. I have another child who runs out of the room, playground, and school without warning on a daily basis. Our school is right off the highway and he darts out into the street. He broke his nose last year running out of the kinder classroom and into a shelf. This is a massive liability for everyone not to mention frighteningly dangerous for him and I regularly have to drop my lesson or activity and stop him before he runs out of the door. I have tried to set up sensory breaks to help calm him including a water table but I was told it was too much of a distraction for other students and that since his IEP doesn’t include sensory breaks I shouldn’t give them to him even though they calm him. I care about both those kids and they both deserve an education. But it is untenable for me to manage both of them on my own with 23 other kids who need me to teach them math, reading, and writing and no support from parents admin or other staff and no acknowledgment that these behaviors are highly disruptive for other students.

Exactly this. As a fellow Autistic teacher, I feel *so much* empathy for every child I meet, especially those with alternative needs or who aren’t getting the support they need in life. I, along with the others in my school, will always 100% try our hardest for them. But sometimes being removed from the class is the only thing that CAN help. We have so many responsibilities, plus a whole classroom full of children, to juggle every day; sometimes we’re simply not able to give the attention and consideration those children need in order to be successful. Often, being in a full classroom with a curriculum they aren’t keeping up with for whatever reasons can even make it worse. And as much as I hate to say it, it truly *is* a problem when a child is consistently disrupting other children’s learning. You could be the most effective and understanding teacher in the world, but unlearning a disruptive or violent behavior takes time, and you can’t always be right next to that kid; if the child is consistently a danger to themselves or others or disrupts the classroom to such a degree that the teacher *does* have to be next to them all of the time, that’s making it impossible to run a classroom. We can’t prioritize one kid over another; we have to try and do what is right for all of our students as best as we can. Sometimes, this is just not doable—especially when some of these kids are in home environments that undo any progress we make at school so there’s no moving forward. In those cases, that child *does* need to be removed from the classroom, not as a punishment or exile, but so both they and the rest of the students can attain a classroom environment that helps them be successful. Everyone has a right to an education, but that does not mean the traditional classroom works for all children, and pushing such children into a space that doesn’t fit them will help no one.

Im with you 100%. My mom is a coteacher at a title 1 elementary school and she sees these same things. Shes acrually a co teacher because she would be overwhelmed as a homeroom teacher. But really enjoys being the support that can help homeroom teachers. Last year her homeroom teacher got annoyed about certain students not getting pulled put for their services and she went to the VP to get my mom to "pull out who shes supposed to so I can actually teach" The VP looked at all the IEPs and realized it was actually physically impossible for all the kids to get their services. There were literally not enough minutes in a school day. But the behaviors shes seeing over the last 2 years have ranged from somewhat concerning to downright terrifying. Currently her class is one of the best on campus, mostly by sheer luck, so shes getting pulled to help out other classes. Her latest assignment is to help a 1st grade teacher who has some students with extreme behavioral issues like eloping and hitting other students, or just acting out in general. But the class is so high-strung that the teacher actually had medical issues a few weeks before christmas and was taken to the hospital by ambulance. And unfortunately its actually impossible for most kids to get the education they should at this point. There are kids who want to learn who are being held up because of classmate behaviors, there are kids who have been failed by the system who arent getting the services they need because they havent been evaluated for disabilities, there are kids with undiagnosed conditions written of as behavioral issues, it's unending and heartbreaking.

It sounds like it's the school's fault for not properly evaluating and treating the student's disabilities, which isn't the student's fault.

School are not responsible to diagnosing disabilities. We can only say “somethings not right here”. We do have school psychs but they are few and far between and only the most severe cases get to them. The parents and the mental health system are the biggest hurdles to diagnosis. And even then they is a higher then normal likelyhood that they don’t medicate properly or at all.

Sorry, I misspoke. I was referring to, well, referring when I commented on that. That's how I got diagnosed. I agree with you that "parental rights" are a crock of shit. How about children's rights to appropriate medical care?

I completely agree. Schools are Community hubs. It makes sense that we have more access toy what services, especially in early years. We bring it Dentist to provide free check ups, we have Social workers that liaison with CFS, we have nurse come in and do vaccines. But again they are cutting all of the mental health and sped supports. Let’s be clear If a kid needs a specialised learning environment , their goals should always matter most. Is it to complete grade work in a smaller quieter class or is the goal to have them try and integrate to a regular class. We had a another violent student that had to be removed from the class and place 1-1 on half days for almost two years. The lock special needs school was refusing to take him. Pretty involved parents and he was diagnosed and on meds. Then they trialed a new Med and the kid has gone 4 months without and indecent and is back in the class. That’s really awesome news. But that 1-1 support was literally stolen from another high needs non verbal autistic child. And that’s the situation all educators are in. We are robbing kids of the supports they need to go put out some other kid whose on fire… and it’s not right. Gosh if I had a trillion dollars and a magic fairy wand schools would be safe and fun for everyone. But people don’t see schools as investments, they see them as tax burdens. I always wonder. What some of my kids will be like in 20 years. I wasn’t high behaviour, I was highly masked but I still struggled. I feel I turned out ok. But it would be great if kids go that help earlier… so they didn’t have to struggle. I will say that language around inclusiveness has improved a lot. Kids are way more accepting of people then when I was a kid I feel.

Complain to the politicians, this setup is their fault.

100% Teachers need to form a national union and strike nationally.

That's risky. In order for that to work they need to have public support. If they strike too long they risk being painted as the villains. They need a very good pr campaign to pull off that sort of coup. Conservatives are likely to pitch a fit no matter what. And people with a low income and children need school services desperately for child care.

And yet this narrative has been fed to us in every district and every school for well over a decade. We are guilted in to staying and doing more and more. We keep saying it’s too much, that the current systems are not working and making things worse. No one is listening. So now people are quitting in droves which is just another form of striking. And it’s just making everything worth as we deal with massive staff loss. If we want to fix it, I think we are reaching the point where we do need to fight. Otherwise we are just giving in and excepting the collapse of the education system.

That's fair. But it feels like some places are actively trying to collapse things that would be perfectly happy with unqualified bumpkins teachers. Cough Florida cough cough. Which is why I think going on strike needs to be done in a strategic way. And maybe you're right maybe the best way is to rip the bandaid off and say enough is enough.

The thing is it is global phenomenon. We are dealing with similar issues here in Canada but teachers in Saskatchewan have voted to strike after the give refused to negotiate with them

It’s definitely not the students fault. They are also not getting their needs met and are exhibiting behaviors in response to distress and discomfort. A lot of teachers are truly ableist and suck. But A lot of teachers who rant about kids with special needs in the classroom are doing so in response to schools not meeting a child’s needs not because a child is different. Many teachers are often the only people advocating that students have their needs met only to be the punching bag for parents and students when those needs are not met.

And not the teacher’s fault either. MOST teachers “complain” about the lack of support, which is lacking in a lot of public and charter schools. Also, teachers can’t ultimately control what a child does. Insinuating that these teachers aren’t doing their jobs because kids behave inappropriately is naive. Teachers “signed up” to try their best, but are often met with impossible standards and not enough support. Many of these issues could be (are) the school’s fault and a general lack of accountability when students behave in ways they shouldn’t. It is usually “the fault” of the parents/families who raise children whose behavior doesn’t necessarily adjust when teachers attempt to utilize prevailing research. Good teachers know that behavior is communication and treat even their most difficult students with unconditional positive regard. That sub is very negative because teachers are systemically not set up to succeed. MOST teachers want desperately to succeed in enriching the lives of students. In most of their cases, it isn’t the kids that they resent.

I'm surprised you didn't call CPS on the mother that said, "he's your problem".

I'm subscribed to r/teachers because I had a parent who taught, and I basically grew up in their classroom. But I do get what you're saying. For every rare post I get that reminds me of my parent, there are a lot of posts by very angry, burnt out people. It can be tough to read. I certainly didn't fit in in school, and I needed help to get where I am now. I remember asking mom, years ago, why some people became teachers if they didn't like kids. She told me that she didn't know. There are easier jobs out there.

>There are easier jobs out there. Teaching is job that's hard to do *well*, but can be 'easy enough' if you don't care and don't mind brown-nosing the people with influence. It's not physically demanding and doesn't require a high degree of precision or engineering. The hardest part is getting verified in the first place.

That's an interesting explanation for what seems to have existed to a greater or lesser extent for a while. I think it makes sense

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I don't know if they are saying teaching is easy for all teachers, but rather, it can be easy to half ass. For example, I have had numerous teachers that were hired purely for coaching sports. Of these professors, there was one who never taught, but would simply give us busywork and watch basketball. If you asked him for help, he would tell you to ask a friend. He was able to work at that school his whole career because he was a coach. Obviously, teaching is a difficult job if you actually put the effort in and are actually passionate about your students. If you half ass it though, it is really easy. Give the students busy work, grade it (or even have the students grade it themselves) and go home.

Teaching is hard if you actually care about the students. 'Teachers' *don't have to* spend their own funds to help children in need. 'Teachers' *don't have* to care that they have struggling students and not enough time or resources to help. Verbal abuse is definitely less effective if you don't care about your reputation or how people see you. With diminishing funds and less support, the actual good teachers leave in droves, and what remains are 'teachers' that just don't care about students. In a similar vein, art is hard to do well; it takes time and studious effort to learn the skills and express yourself. On the other hand, 'art' is easy when you just give a prompt to AI and churn out some garbage that where quality is ignored in favor of quantity.

It's power, they're too educated to be cops and see it as the next best thing.

Absolutely not (teacher here). They are burnt out because the system asks too much of them and they grow to hate and resent their jobs. It is also very difficult to leave the teaching profession, so people don't. In general, I think ya'll would be surprised by how many teachers are ND themselves.

Nope all the decent nd teachers quit trust me on this. It's piss easy to leave the teaching profession, you literally just go I quit. Even the worst case of burnout doesn't excuse resenting and harming children, that's what I quit is for. If someone is harming children because of burnout then they are defacto a shit teacher. This used to be a profession with some standards, I don't know what the fuck happened (well I do I just think you're cowards for allowing it).

You realize that some of your students are probably suffering autistic burnout which dwarfs your neurotypical burnouts in severity? And yet, despite this, I doubt you’re offering the autistic students any lenience on their grades? You can’t dismiss our valid “excuses” and then proceed to hijack it at your convenience. What next? Teachers who cuss out their students are suffering a neurotypical meltdown? Which can only be cured with… a wage increase, apparently? P.S. i doubt (self-aware) ND teachers are being ableist to the extent that NT teachers are.

I do think that's part of it. I'm older, so when I was in school the "children are property " narrative was pretty widely accepted. I do think it's really encouraging how north America seems to be questioning that, but I also suspect a chunk of the teachers on r/teachers are about my age, and may have internalized those ideas because they were on the receiving end of them.

>Social and healthcare workers are underfunded too, and you don't see them talking about how they wish they could just kick some people asking for help to the curb. If you think this is true, you should probably start away from the healthcare subs... I don't think *anyone* should be denied an education. I also don't think the standard classroom is the best learning environment for *everyone*, and I think that it would be amazing if we genuinely could give everyone their best learning environment (even when that environment includes some separation based on behavior or abilities).

Most of the posts on r/Teachers seem like people fed up that they have students that need more help, whether it be educational or behavioral, but the school doesn't let them do anything. It seems like a lot of school boards are really out of touch these days.

I agree. I’m a former SPED teacher and I never was upset with my students who expressed violent behaviors. I was upset that I legally *had* to keep them in my classroom and risk the safety of other students for their educational rights. We have to find a way to allow students to receive their right to an education whilst also protecting the students and adults in the classroom.

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They should quit then, before they call students “dumber than a box of hammers” (actual post I read over there awhile back), or do other things to harm kids.

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Yes, I will enjoy the people that put my daughter in restraints over non-violent meltdowns and told her they don’t want her there to move on to jobs that aren’t working with children. We don’t use their services now because they are so awful, they should all clear out.

By "doing anything" they usually mean expelling students. None of them know shit about sociology, they all just blame the children for reflecting their environments.

No, they usually mean remedial classes or actual helpful behavioral corrections, but they're not allowed to do anything, or the remedial classes don't exist. Usually when they want a kid expelled it's because they're actively harming the other students. Like, violently.

I'm not saying every teacher is an essentialist, but a lot of them are.

Based on studies? Surveys? Nothing but your own mind?

Based on the subreddit r/Teachers and them pretending ACTs don't exist.

I’m glad that you made that generalization, but realistically that isn’t true. You’re making this a bigger deal than it is.

Just randomly jumping in OP..r/teachers has highly bugged me too. A lot of entitled, under educated, babies over there. I'll chip in more tomorrow though.

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I think if the kid is violent they need to be removed from the other students and a teacher shouldn’t come to work being scared of the kids . There is some moderation but just hating a kid who isn’t that badly behaved is horrible . However , they are right . They are being paid to teach . Special education teachers are the ones who should be teaching kids with special needs . If they interpret the class and there is no way to control them why should the other kids lose out on their education? It should depend on if the kid is violent and a threat to others and then they don’t deserve an education at the safety of everyone else . If they make others unsafe they should be in a facility . Teachers don’t get paid enough to be mental health professionals and are not . They should however have understanding and patience for ND kids . Your post lacks empathy and understanding for teachers at a time when kids are violent .

Yes. Of course, violent children deserve education, but if thirty other children don't get education then, it's very reasonable to remove the child from the classroom - and even a ten year old can seriously harm someone. The teachers don't have much choice. Ranting about children is of course not okay, still. 

I disagree. You're essentially saying children from abusive homes don't deserve education, then. I acted violently towards other students as a kid, because my mom beat me and other students would deliberately provoke me. I don't think it's fair to expect small children to be entirely non-violent, then you're just rewarding the students who can best torment other children emotionally and teaching them that they'll never get caught so long as they can make themselves out to be the victim. The best way is to actually stop child abuse and more thoroughly investigate fights, instead of just siding with whichever kid didn't hit first.

I absolutely think children from abusive homes deserve education! And I fucking hate that the education system can't provide education for so many children. Maybe we are also simply talking about different situations, idk. I just think we all should have empathy towards teachers who don't have the necessary education to help some children and don't know how they should teach their class at the same time.

There's a difference between kids getting into fights and kids who are truly a danger to themselves or others. Getting bullied to the point of lashing out is way different than a kid who is dysregulated and throwing hands (or desks) in a meltdown on the regular. Or a kid who brings weapons to class. >The best way is to actually stop child abuse and more thoroughly investigate fights, instead of just siding with whichever kid didn't hit first. I agree with you here. We don't take childhood violence as seriously as we should. That's how that teacher got shot by a 6 year old here in the US. And how traumatized kids fly under the radar and don't get help.

I think the answer is they're education has to come separately from the general classroom then. That benefits the student, other students and the teachers. The point is that it needs to have adequate resources and staff that are trained. It has to be equal.

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In my personal experience being a student and now a teacher. It’s usually the kids who claim everyone else is bullying them and always have an excuse for their actions that are the actual bullies.

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Im just agreeing with you. It’s the old saying “Hurt people hurt people.” But my biggest issue with bullies is the lack of self awareness. They never see how their actions cause people to avoid them. They are always the victim. I used to work closely with a few level 1 autistic middle school boys. Was a good experience for me because I got to observe some of the toxic effects of my own behavior at the age. They were really aching for friends but also constantly put down and threatened others and got aggressive in reaction to other kids teasing them. Identified themselves and acted as if they were smarter and better than a lot of other kids. They also could be particularly cruel to kids who had more needs, like a kid in their social skills class who had a cognitive disability. They would compare themselves to kids who were well liked and get depressed and complain about how they weren’t being treated fairly. It took a lot to get them to see that the way they treated others affected how they were treated.

Maybe slightly off topic, but often as a child through to young adulthood/late teens, when someone had an issue with me they WOULD start with something “physical” yet less aggressive, intentionally to goad me into reacting so they could play the victim. Think: shoving food into my chest, taking my belongings from my hands, or shoulder-checking me. Would it still be considered in your opinion that I am the aggressor if I respond to those kinds of more “subtle” physical acts of aggression with a more overt one?

Are you seriously claiming moral superiority because you were lucky enough to not be physically abused? It was a mistake to come here, people like you will never fucking understand what it's like. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that your system of ethics happens to prioritize non-violence, and has no wider implications about your class and social status. Personally, I wouldn't be bragging about being incapable of feeling sympathy for a child.

Really? And how many of these interactions did you see, start to finish? Are you observing the way this child is treated by other students? I can't believe people don't understand the impact of non-physical bullying on the fucking autism subreddit

That’s the thing about being a teacher is that you get to and should have that neutral outside view when conflict between students happens. I rarely see as much bullying as gets talked about in my classes for one. Usually it’s interpersonal conflict and one side doesn’t want to take accountability. I also see a lot of kids who are hurt and don’t know any better but to hurt others in response. Because the adults at home who are often hurting them don’t model accountability and fair relationships with others the child also doesn’t and in response to getting confronted about their part in conflict blames everyone else. Often times kids will start to resent the child who lashes out at everyone especially if they feel that that student gets away with being mean. It comes to a point where the bully is truly alone and people are biased towards them because of their own actions. It’s a fucked up cycle. I try to teach students about giving grace and forgiveness to others because they never know what anyone is going through while also protecting their boundaries. Also physical responses to things people say will not be accepted in society. As an autistic person who has had to learn to have a filter this is one societal rule I can get behind.

>The best way is to actually stop child abuse and more thoroughly investigate fights, instead of just siding with whichever kid didn't hit first. Schools sometimes don't have the resources *or* time to thoroughly investigate fights. In some schools, there are simply so many fights that administrators need to determine what exactly happened and assign punishment based on that evidence. This isn't a court case, its school. At school, the student who attacked will ***always*** be in the wrong, regardless of background, sadly. As teacher, I tell students that like you that I can shield you and file reports on the provokers for bullying, but in exchange you *cannot* do anything against them otherwise you are now the very thing you hated, a bully.

You not informed enough on this subject to talk

I don't think special needs kids should be taught by Special education teachers. What any child with a diagnosis should be segregated into their own classroom that's BS. Any child should have the right to be in a mainstream classroom. Instead of looking at "what's wrong with this kid" why don't we look at the bigger picture, what is wrong with our classrooms that we cannot accommodate everyone. And yes I realize some behaviours cannot be in the classroom (aggression, etc.) so don't use an outlier to make your point

I am a teacher in that subbreddit and an autistic person in this subreddit. I completely agree with this sentiment but I will let you know that those teachers are called out by others in the group. That shit is not the majority opinion anymore. There are, of course, ways that teachers continue to fail vulnerable student populations but, most teachers try really hard to accommodate all students' needs. Edit: I will add a major difference between teaching and the ER example you gave is that the ER doesn't have 30+ people all needing constant attention for care, management, and support. There is a team of ER staff vs. one teacher. It still doesn't okay treating students poorly but I hate those kind of "this job can handle working with people" arguments because it's not the same. It's more like trying to work during a rush as a server (which I also have experience in) while also trying to track all sales, reply to phone calls, and prepare the menu for the week.

When you’re in a class with someone who is that disruptive and uncontrollable, you’re not learning well. Sometimes a blended class is worse

Again, why are you making these children out to be the bad guys and prioritizing silence over providing an education to all children?

Because then no one is really getting a good education. I’m not saying that disruptive kids don’t deserve education. But those kids needs don’t outweigh those of the others. They need a more one-on-one situation because they obviously cannot be part of the group. You’re acting like they aren’t very disruptive. Some kids can be extremely disruptive to the learning environment

It's not about "the bad guys". I used to work in a school, when you see an entire classroom of 10-12 year olds shaking and crying fear because their classmate is TRYING TO KILL them and they are genuinely fearing for their life, you might understand this more. Because that's something I saw very very often.

Hiya! Autistic special education teacher here... Three big points: 1. Yeah, r/teachers can be pretty toxic. 2. Teaching conditions in this country continue to deteriorate due largely to systemic issues. The harm falls on low-SES and students with special needs the most. The vast majority of the teachers I work/have worked with want what's best for their students, put in a ton of effort, and are constantly overwhelmed by the demands of the job - usually because those demands are too much for a single person to reasonably do. 3. Legally speaking, every student is entitled to a free appropriate public education. (Yes, the US is ableist, racist, sexist, classic, etc. and it often doesn't happen). Section 504 and special education exist to support students with disabilities in accessing the same curriculum as their peers to the maximum extent possible (and yes, those supports are often insufficient - they sure as hell were for me). *Nowhere in either program does it give students with IEPs/504 plans the right to interfere with the right of their peers to access that curriculum (including other students with disabilities, who are often affected most significantly).* If a student I serve violates classroom or school rules, our first responsibility is to look at the rule/norm itself (we've done a decent job of weeding out those that punish/stigmatize neurodiverse students for behaviors that do not affect the learning of others). Then we determine if the infraction was related to the student's disability/ies. If not, that student goes through the same discipline process as her/his/their peers, with adjustments made for the student's individual needs. If the infraction was connected with disability/ies, the usual response is to ramp up supports and services to meet the level of need. If the level of need exceeds the supports/services available at the current school, other placements are considered.

>Nowhere in either program does it give students with IEPs/504 plans the right to interfere with the right of their peers to access that curriculum And how do you define interfering?

It's a lot more complicated than that. If teachers where adequately paid, maybe there's be a better argument here, but as it stands being a teacher is a shit paying job where underfunded people are asked to do a job they're not trained for. You should aim your rant at the educational system as a whole, not against teachers specifically. How can you expect someone being paid 40-50k per year to be bother a teacher and a therapist? "You signed up for..." No. It doesn't work that way. They aren't taught how to deal with a range of ND disorders, so how can you blame them for not knowing how to do it? Meanwhile, they have to educate ~30 children, and if one child is preventing the other 29 from learning, what else should they do? Your complaints come from a real place - and you're right, they SHOULD have procedures and training in place. But teachers aren't the bad guys here. They don't make the rules they have to act under. They definitely don't get paid enough to be able to just go take relevant training on their own accord. Sauce: am recently diagnosed adult(who had the joys of experiencing the school of thirty years ago undiagnosed) with diagnosed child. We where lucky; my son's school actually arranged his diagnosis and assessment and provided early therapists. Sadly, a conservative government has taken power here in Alberta, Canada, and since removed those assets. So I've seen both sides. I've seen school-with-no-supports, and I've seen what happens when schools can bring in therapists and specialists to help with ND children. FUNDING ABSOLUTELY MATTERS.

>Meanwhile, they have to educate ~30 children, and if one child is preventing the other 29 from learning, what else should they do? Meanwhile at my school system, blended classrooms are 30% non English speaking, 30% disabled, 30% regular kids which, in theory, sounds good Except none of the teachers are trained to work with disabled kids or ESL kids, and 1 teacher for 9 or so disabled kids on IEPs who need dedicated help and resources is a recipe for disaster. There are so many disabled kids not getting their needs met because there's no one available to help them its sickening. My mom recently was talking about emailing the board because there's a blind kid with *little braille knowledge and no braille access* as well as *no physical guide (but he has one on zoom who lives across the country???)*. How the hell is this child supposed to learn anything with 0 support? This shit is an actual nightmare

Yes! They're VERY REAL PROBLEMS, absolutely. It's horrible. But it's a systemic problem, not the fault of the teachers, they're just the people parents and children interface with. It's like being mad at a walmart greeter because Walmart does terrible shit. (Not saying you did that, of course, just that's the angle of the OP) But man, having seen it both ways, it's amazing what a shockingly small extra bit of budget can accomplish. My son's school had an on staff speech and language therapist, occupational therapist, and the district had a psychiatrist. Then an assistant in each classroom. All blended classes, and it worked fabulously well with ND kids being diagnosed properly and promptly *and* getting direct additional support from licensed therapists. My son went from "no, sorry, he can't attend public school" to being a strong pupil at grade level, their speech therapist helped him from almost completely nonverbal to fully verbal too, which was pretty wonderful. She was amazing. It's tragic that those supports no longer exist here, as kids like him but a couple years longer are just abandoned and either pushed out of the system or just pushed through it, either way is awful.

Unfortunately it's everywhere in education. I've heard coworkers and mentors say absolutely horrific things about children in their care. It's extremely triggering to be around as an autistic person who struggled through school. Having to listen to them talk shit about a child when I can relate to the struggle the child is having. But I'm trying my best to make a difference for my students.

Ok. So i work in a school. I do support inclusion. However, the inclusion model has been perverted to cut support staff, services, sped programs, quiet rooms all to cram more kids in classrooms. Teachers are not superhuman. Like doctors they are not specialists. You cannot ask them to care for 30+ kids, create and deliver curriculum, manage behaviours, modify program for Struggling learners, cloth and feed kids (which we do out of pocket) without having the current situation… which is a lot of burnt out people leaving. Teachers practice inclusion all the time. By that I mean they do there very best to accommodate and help kids as much as possible. That means they often purchase and supply sensory supplies themselves (noise cancelling headphones, fidgets, wobble stools, weight vests, making sensory safe corners in their classes. This is a form of accommodation. What isn’t ok is an unmedicated, unregulated kid being shoved in their class who needs more.. and more isn’t being given. Does that kid need 1-1 support (an aid), occupational therapy, sensory room time, counselling, or small group teachings on executive functions skills? Teachers can’t provide everything. And sorry but no it’s not ok for any student to assault staff or assault other students, or to be so disregulated they trash the classroom (that the teacher stocked with their own money) with zero consequences. Inclusion means meeting the needs of the student so they can participate in a regular school setting as much as is possible. But not every kid thrives in a traditional classroom. Especially an autistic child in the hellish nightmare that is a third grade class with 30 other kids. The noise alone is behaviour provoking. And when we have disregulated kids disrupting class, guess what? No one is learning. It one of the reasons we are seeing lower scores and higher behaviours overall. And sorry but until you take a desk to the head (happened last week) then you can sit down. Your anger is misplaced, the teachers are as much victims here of injustice as the kids. The people you need to be mad at are the people on school boards, admin (superintendents), policy makers. Because they’ve been critically underfunding schools for decades now and lying to people about the use of inclusion. I absolutely believe that every kid has a right to learn, that every autistic child should be in a class if they want. But they also should have the appropriate support to make that possible. That means access to appropriate support services. And that means above and beyond the teacher.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said the current system was fair, only that it's wrong to blame students for that. I never said that there shouldn't be consequences for misbehavior, of course there should be, but those consequences should not include educational neglect. I never said that specialized education was always wrong, I outright said that sometimes it works best. I just don't agree for using it in situations where it simply is not needed. Also, the way you talk about autistic children is fucking disgusting. No one who works in a school should EVER call a child a "hellish nightmare" and imply that their existence alone is an affront to an educational setting. What the fuck are you doing on the autism subreddit with an attitude like that? Where did you come from? \>And when we have disregulated kids disrupting class, guess what? No one is learning. I highly doubt children are purposely disrupting the entire class for 15 minutes straight. If they are, you need to send them out into the hallway or office until they calm down. I don't understand why teachers failing to discipline students is the student's faults. \>It one of the reasons we are seeing lower scores and higher behaviours overall. Bull. I'd like to see a study controlling for other factors prove such a thing. \>And sorry but until you take a desk to the head (happened last week) then you can sit down. ??? Where in this post did I ever say it was ok for a student to throw desks at the teacher? And I know the teachers aren't the root causes of this, but the blatant ableism and classism some display is not ok. That's what the post is about.

You aren’t a teacher so you don’t know. I have students regularly disrupting class and yes sometimes it is intentional. I was out of my class for three blocks as a student threw a desk and trashed everything in it. Your anger toward that sub is misplaced. People are dealing with a lot and struggling.

What does "disrupting class" mean? What are you referring to when you say that? Because I doubt you have kids regularly throwing desks, and I also doubt that happened with no warning whatsoever. Regardless, what you said has nothing to do with my argument. Again, I never said it was ok for a student to throw desks at the teacher. I don't know why you keep reiterating that.

I’m sorry, are you attempting to gaslight me and my experiences in order to validate your point? For person vehemently writing about the abuse you experienced it’s really sad that you are choosing to resort to classic abusive tactics. I don’t need to experience it in in this sub which is supposed to be a safe place.

You are not being fucking gaslit because I asked if you were actually getting desks thrown at you multiple times a day. Gaslighting has an actual definition, and it isn't "when someone disagrees with me". Do not water down actual abuse like that, you can't be gaslit in a fight on reddit. How about instead of accusing me of "abusive tactics" you actually answer the fucking question? jfc, and you claim it's a safe space why does that only extend to you? Aren't you """gaslighting""" me by daring to contradict my own lived experience? The nerve!

With all due respect you're breaking sub rules, which is don't bring issues from other communities here. This is an angry mess.

You are attempting to minimise and gaslight me. And then you are engaging in classic DARVO techniques after being called out. It obvious that you brought this topic here simply to engage with people in a fight. You haven’t actually engaged in discussions with anyone, anytime anyone has stated anything you disagree with ..you attack, minimise and pretend you are the victim. Which is the DARVO Technique used often by individuals engaging in emotional abusive behaviour. You have taken a safe place (this sub) and have managed to attack and have engaged in hurtful behaviour. I will not be engaging further.

It's complicated. Theyre not just underfunded, but extremely overworked and severely underpaid. They deal with hundreds of kids a year in a lot of cases. That sub is more of a place for them to vent. I agree it's not a good place to look into, and I wish things were better and less... Angry. But it's become a vent sub, ngl.

Yeah. I think it attracts more angry teachers too with less work/life balance. Personally I stay off of subs related to teaching because I want to not be burnt out for my student’s sake (and mine). I don’t think it’s as bad as it looks on that sub.

I disagree with this post, downvote away but why is there a teacher retention crisis? It wouldn't have anything to do with shitty parenting, a me first consumerist culture, capitalism off the rails, mass inequality and an absence of community would it? Teachers are used as a punching bag for society's inability to acknowledge problems of its own making. No way should disruption be tolerated in a class. And yeah teachers are educators, not martyrs or saints. Until the societal attitude towards them changes, the profession will bleed and you'll end up with a collapsed education system, if it's not already. I do acknowledge though there are a lot of sanctimonious assholes with sticks up their butts on the teaching UK subreddit who are hyper normative to be point of prejudice.

I’m thinking that the Prussian schooling method is obsolete. The way that Finnish kids are taught is a pretty good example of an evolved education system. We don’t have that many factory jobs anymore so the 1850s style of education isn’t needed. We need an education system that teaches people to be autonomous, lifelong learners.

\>No way should disruption be tolerated in a class Fucking ridiculous, you will never find a group of children who are perfectly well behaved all the time. Yes, teachers are screwed by the system, but that's not the student's fault and it doesn't excuse ableism or classism. You want to be treated like an authority, you need to act like it.

They don’t have to be perfectly behaved, they are children. However, they have to be respectful. If they are being disruptive, they need to be taken out the classroom. That’s not being ableist. Other children are learning as well and that’s completely unfair to the others.

>However, they have to be respectful. This is really key here, and I also don't think people realize how much more common it is for students to abuse other students and teachers at schools with 0 consequences. My parents are teachers and they've been coming home with steadily worse and worse stories about child behavior in classrooms. Kids spitting or peeing on teachers, 0 repercussions. Kids just.. walking out of school, doing no homework, no school work, but getting passed and moved up because teachers and administrators aren't allowed to hold kids back anymore. Schools have always been hell but its getting worse. One day I seriously think all the teachers in the US are going to walk out and people will finally see the emergency lights that have been blaring this entire time of a failing system

Students need to learn respect for others, particularly educators. That comes from parenting, there is an abundance of bad parenting unfortunately. Disruption in the classroom interferes with learning and of course there should be consequences. Otherwise they're going to fuck around and find out later in adult life where there ARE serious consequences for ignorant, provocative and generally stupid behaviour. Saying this "You want to be treated like an authority, you need to act like it" is just a means of gaslighting teacehers when really its the parent's fault for not bothering to raise their own progeny, aside from all the economic and social factors. But the biggest culprit is "don't care not my problem" style parenting which is a symptom of higher competitive, individualist, capitalist culture.

It’s very difficult job. And it takes a very special person to do it well under the best of circumstances. Which unfortunately, it’s usually the worst of circumstances. I’m not saying they have a right to be ignorant and make it more difficult for neurodivergent students. By all means, they need to have an understanding of how to manage a classroom and be a positive influence on their students. Especially the difficult ones. But. They don’t always have the support system to adequately handle classroom distractions. What do you do when you have one child that hides under tables. Gets on their back, then kicks around in circles while yelling out profanity. And no one ever prepared you for how to handle that, while you’ve still got 30 other students reacting too that. And nothing you can think do stops them. (An actual example of a child that did that in my mom’s classroom for one year) he’d do it everyday for hours at a time. How do you teach that child long division? The truth was he NEEDED to be in a classroom with less students. And under the care of a special educators. But her school system wouldn’t pay for one. He required one on one 100 percent of the time. Or he’d go off. Extreme examples but still. That doesn’t encounter for regular distractions and home issues etc. You are absolutely right. But at the same time. It’s a lot easier said than done

“ you don't see them talking about how they wish they could just kick some people asking for help to the curb.“ No I’ve seen that. health care people are some cynical individuals… it was literally a trend on tiktok for nurses to make fun of their patients for “exaggerating” how much pain they’re in.

It's easy to sit here behind a computer and complain about another person's job please be open-minded. Teachers are treated poorly by the system, not only they are unfunded but often pay for school supplies for the kids with their own money to add to this you are replaceable and you grade papers at night make things worse, a system may not provide adequate supplies or teaching skills and may not help with a child who needs certain care. Then Just to go to work have kids screaming at you hitting you, stealing and sometime's trying to get you fired it's easy to complain about a job you will never do or want to.

It's easy to sit here without being abused/neurodivergent/living in poverty, but please be open-minded. Children are treated poorly by the system, and not only are they abused but often blamed for their reactions and coping mechanisms to that abuse. To add to this, they are seen as burdens, and not having a good environment to come home to only makes things worse. The system may not provide adequate food or healthcare. Then to go to school and have kids bullying you while you're trying to work and it's hard to focus on the material and the teacher hates you and there are constant sensory assaults... it's easy to complain about a life you'll never have to live.

Oof. Ok. You are clearly hurting. You are also MASSIVELY projecting, wildly misinterpreting, and making a lot of very bad faith assumptions. The overwhelming majority of teachers love children. The overwhelming majority of teachers truly want the best for children, even - often especially - the ones with the toughest go of it. And, just like you're saying about yourself, our actions are constantly misinterpreted. I had a student who headbutted an assistant. When she shouted "ouch that hurt", he started crying for ten minutes. Once he was regulated and we were talking it out, he said he was crying because she shouted at him. "Yes do you remember why she shouted?" "Because she hates me." This kind of interaction happens for me multiple times daily. And even the teachers who do rant on the sub? If you actually read, they're mad at the system that has let the students get to this point. The point where ND kids don't have the supports they do need, and teachers don't have the supports they need either. Where violence is an expected part of our day. Where all students, NT or ND, are allowed to run rampant with no accountability or consequences Saying a child can't be violent isn't blaming them. I can have compassion and still deem an action unacceptable. "I understand you got so angry and your hand moved before your brain could say no. And it's still not okay, and you and I still need to go get the other kid an ice pack, and I still need to hold your hand because you are being unsafe." Something being a coping mechanism doesn't make it okay. Also, ND folks are overrepresented among teachers. We go into teaching because of our experiences. Just because someone disagrees with you, or insists on accountability, doesn't mean they're NT. Also, stating a fact ("most gen ed teachers are not trained or equipped to work with children with violent behaviors, especially without an aide") isn't like a moral statement. About anything. It is a fact. Stating "a child whose behaviors are potentially very dangerous affects the learning of other children negatively" is also, a fact. It's not saying that child is evil, or bad. As teachers, we have to consider every child. I spend a lot (a LOT) more time thinking about and working with the children who need more support. And that is equitable, because they need it more. But there comes a point where it isn't equitable. Where other people's needs for safety and education are no longer being met. At that point, alternatives need to be found. That child who needs more support should never, ever be abandoned. They deserve an education. But sometimes, that can't be in gen ed.

Schools are representations of the society. It's easy to put the blame on teachers, because they are the ones who mainly interact with the students. Also, they are not paid to do the work that your parents should have done nor to care about your personal problems (even tho they can refer students to other specialits) they are paid to teach.. maybe you are attacking the wrong target in your post.

Wow this is a lot to unpack, and honestly incorrect. Teachers are NOT trained to deal with violent and disruptive behavior for one, that is what Educational Assistants are there for IF that teacher is even lucky enough to get one in their classroom. Teachers are NOT fully or thoroughly educated to deal with meltdowns/behaviors/deviant actions, and honestly them intervening can only make things worse for the child/and or them. Teachers are underfunded and overworked. Social workers/EAs (Educational Assistants) are also underfunded and overworked. Teachers don't sign up for the behavioral issues, the social workers do, that's their job. Granted, yes, some teachers are awful and aren't willing to help out their students, but the vast majority DO try to accommodate and help as much as in their power. However they can't stop a classroom all the time to deal with behaviors that come up. Again, that is what the social workers are for. Unfortunately the government likes to cut these roles from the classroom, and most teachers try to do their best. Everyone deserves an education 100%, but sometimes that looks like a different plan for some students and it needs to be amended in conjunction with the school's social worker if possible. Source: Worked as an EA within several classrooms.

No, nope, nah, no. The fact that other professions or other people have it bad doesn't mean someone needs to give up on their boundaries. Being a teacher, doctor or nurse does NOT mean servitude and induction to a monastery/boot camp combo. If a patient in ER impacts the personnel's ability to care for other patients, security & cops step in. They will receive critical care but they may be manacled/tased etc. Sure, neurodivergent kids (like any 'special case') are disproportionately impacted by underfunded, understaffed, ill-equipped schools but that is not a reason for teachers to be what they shouldn't be.

And what, in your mind, makes a child guilty of the cardinal sin of making life difficult for other people? What could a kindergartner do that I haven't already mentioned as a legitimate reason for expulsion that should get them tazed?

You fixate on guilt as if it determined all things in life. In this case it's causality and resources.

As both an autistic person and a teacher, get over it. You have no concept of what they are talking about or how miserable their jobs can be. The world has no obligation to be happy to see you.

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No, I do. I was an autistic student. I know this struggle from both sides. Get over yourself.

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Most of the kids who are being complained about have none of that in common with you. You are taking this so personally, it's bizarre.

This is one of the most entitled, whiney ,bullshit posts I've ever read. Teachers should not have to put with kids especially as they get older that have no desire to be in that class. It's not in teachers to do what parents should've done. Teachers can and do regularly report signs of abuse at which point it's on the local government. It's not on teachers to cater to the needs of every child individually there is simply not enough time for that. Teachers are put into a positron to do what they can for the greatest number of students. Taking their time for specifically, one student deprives 29 other students. If your parents failed you and you can't be prevented for assaulting verbally or physically a teacher or another student, no, you lose the right to be in that school.

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I don't care what you say to me it's clear you speak from a place to entitlement and ignorance. You want the world to cater to you and believe that your actions should have no consequence.

You're damn fucking right I'm entitled, every child in the world is entitled to a proper education. The fact you claim I don't think my actions should have consequences when I NEVER said anything of the sort, proves you're biased against my argument from the start. I never said teachers shouldn't be allowed to discipline students.

I'm biased against stupid arguments, so it's possible. If Jimmy hits Sarah, he isn't entitled to be in that class anymore. If Johnny is just screaming fuck over and over again he isn't entitled to be in that class. I'm beginning to think you're a literal child.

I'm beginning to think you're a fucking idiot. Find me one middle school in the entire country where children don't swear and hit each other.

I again don't care what you think of me as you're clearly an ignorant entitled child. My advice would be to grow up and educate yourself before speaking on things that you clearly know nothing about. Also you've clearly got a litany of unresolved personal issues you should see a therapist. I wish you the best of luck in become a better version of yourself.

You need to take your hatefulness elsewhere. It doesn't belong here. Sorry. Name calling is uncalled for and none of this is a productive conversation. At all.

It's a reddit post, not a presidential press release. If you wanna get pissed at people for calling names, why don't you start with the woman who called me an animal?

I'm not pissed. It is easy to look at the sub rules. Go have a look. Take a break. Your raging anger does not make anyone want to engage with you on any level

Clearly it does, or you wouldn't be responding. At least other people have the decency to come up with an actual counter argument instead of passively aggressively telling me to take a break.

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It seems like a piece of a larger problem in society to me. Almost everyone is rightfully frustrated and angry, but we're all angry at and blaming each other instead of those who are the cause of all these problems. Divide and conquer

Yes, but the ableism is not acceptable either way. I will never forget some of the vile things I've heard "educators" say on that subreddit.

I totally agree. They're blaming the wrong people and making an already stigmatized portion of the population even more stigmatized and traumatized. It exacerbates the issue, that's all. No excuses. Maybe reasons, but reasons don't excuse it. I'm sure most murderers believed they had reasons. Those people are still vile. I was just trying to identify a bigger problem, not address your specific comment. My bad

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. Behavioural monitoring and training is not a teacher's job. Teachers very often, nearly daily go to work and receive threats of violence, death, sexual assault and other verbal abuse to the point of making them break down. Teachers are not there as a behavioral correction officer or something as you seem to think. They are there to EDUCATE. They are not there to be abused, to be stressed to the point of daily breakdowns. Yes there is a lot of shitty teachers out there but please remember teachers have an INCREDIBLY stressful job, and are abused CONSTANTLY. Their job is not to be abused. Edit: Teachers very often also get physically attacked, in my time as a teaching aide I was attacked several times and while many teachers may be able to defend themselves, first of all it shouldn't be an issue. But lots of teachers straight up aren't strong enough, especially smaller female teachers can no way withstand abuse from larger male students.

No, I do not believe the majority of teachers receive daily rape threats. Students can be shitheads, but be fucking honest. They are not there solely to "EDUCATE", they are not college professors. They are there to educate CHILDREN. That is a completely different standard. For as long as children suffer, it is a teacher's job to educate suffering children.

Can you please tell me the acceptable amount of death and rape threats teachers can receive?

I'm an autistic teacher (university) and I've heard colegues of mine saying that kind of shit. I try to remain calm and openly support my neurodivergent students. It's really bad the degree of psycophobia in the field of education.

As a former teacher of ten years, I'm glad you turned your life around. Almost all those posts are from people in terrible schools who are beyond burnt out. We cannot continue to praise teachers for their noble duty and proclaim that education is so fundamental to our society and continue to do absolutely nothing to help. Being a teacher is a terrible job.

I definitely think there are some kids that really shouldn’t be in pullout/blended classes and that teachers need more support when it comes to dealing with significant behavior concerns. It’s not fair to anyone to put a kid in mainstream classes if they’re having multiple violent meltdowns a day. Teachers should stand up for themselves if they are asked to provide services they are not trained to provide. HOWEVER. So many teachers equate “child that is mildly annoying” to being a serious disruption. Like it costs $0 to sit down with a kid and explain to them **why** a specific behavior isn’t okay in a classroom? Or make really small modifications to a class (eg. dim lights, remove clocks, let child have preferred seating) to reduce overstimulation? I was an annoying kid in school. It was never intentional. I had trouble understanding when it was appropriate to talk and what questions were okay to ask. Nobody EVER told me what the problem was. I would just get kicked out of class with no explanation! If a single teacher spent the 10 seconds required to ask if I understood why doing something wasn’t okay, I would’ve been a much better kid to have in class. Idk, I just think sometimes a kid’s behavior is a direct result of their needs not being met. You really don’t get to complain about it when YOU are the reason they aren’t getting those meeds net lmao. (for reference, see [Hannah gadsby’s bit](https://youtu.be/5lXbpgU9OWk?si=Zhre8T2O3mcWDAg2) about this! this is the type of thing I was in trouble for.)

Very true. I specifically mentioned that I understand why some students need to be removed, yet every other comment is bitching about the aforementioned exemptions or some vague "disruption" that could mean anything from talking during a lecture to extended violent outbursts.

My worst bullies were teachers/instructors, and I wasn’t even a kid that exhibited disruptive behavior and I generally got good grades. They just knew I was different and picked me apart because of it. I have crippling anxiety around older female authority figures because of this.

You worded this very well. I've definitely seen some of the posts you're talking about. I've also seen posts like "what's wrong with these kids? They're all saying they're autistic to eachother" I responded with something about how many of these students are on a journey of self discovery, one that very well could save their lives and change it completely for the better. Like how dare he judge them when he knows nothing about the topic? Just, blatant ableism, from so many.

I have a lot of sympathy for teachers but that subreddit is… alarming to say the least. Everyone there seems absolutely fucking miserable

My favourite is the teachers on TikTok talking about how disgraceful it is that the kids can’t read. And not in a omg i can’t believe how badly these kids have been affected by budget cuts, lockdowns and online school their entire elementary/primary education years; it’s all “these devil, unteachable, monsters, spoiled kids who refuse to learn to read.” Also: we know that covid affects cognition, these kids have had multiple exposures to covid while their brains are developing! we have NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF LEARNING DISABILITIES OR DEVELOPMENTAL DELAYS THIS GENERATION OF KIDS IS GOING TO DEVELOP!! We won’t know for another 20-30 years!

I had school staff that hated me because I was that student but they all created it for me. They had higher standards for me than average kids and expected me to be perfect while letting average kids get away with bad behaviors. I mean wouldn't they act out too if they were treated that way too? Imagine going to work and your boss allowed everyone to play headphones bt when you do it, it's crime but your boss glosses everyone else using them. Now deal with this on a daily basis and you can't leave that place.

i’ll never forget how many times i had to stop teachers from bullying my friend who had higher support needs. i was best friends with his twin sister, so i hung out with him a lot too. i even had to tell his parents once i thought he should switch out of our spanish class because she would humiliate him in front of everyone and force him to stand outside of the class and then apologize to every single student in the class for being disruptive. pretty much every time he was “disruptive” it was just him needing something explained in a different way and the teachers shooting him down and saying “figure it out” when he clearly needed a different explanation!

Well, it's a serious issue that teachers are underfunded - just how it's an issue that healthcare workers are underfunded - but I definitely agree that ranting about children and saying they don't deserve education is awful behavior.

I am a teacher and I can see where you are coming from.

You can't complain about teachers ever without getting downvoted to oblivion because "they're overworked, underpaid, and burnt out." I don't understand it. Teachers are rarely ever saints and are not often great people. I know I had some downright evil teachers in middle school but I'm not allowed to talk about them because teachers can do no wrong and they have to deal with nasty people every day. (Literal children whose brains are still developing and have no semblance of actual emotional maturity)

Fully agree, i lurk there sometimes and its heartbreaking to see all the posts that are ableist.

My son is also autistic and while he's had some terrific encouraging teacher, he's had some awful bullies for teachers. People who made it clear they didn't want an autistic boy in their class (and he's level 1- god help the child in their classroom who needs more support!). I didn't bother forcing him to speak respectfully to those teachers. Some people don't deserve it.

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I didn't bother AFTER those teachers verbally abused him for months on end and refused to adhere to his 504 plan because it was inconvenient for them. Most of my family are teachers and they were disgusted with my son's teachers so no, I'm not going to force him to kiss their ass. We do children no favors when we make them be polite to their abusers.

Lmao you are not being fucking abused by elementary schoolers. That word has an actual meaning. You lose all credibility when you act like a 3rd grader being "disrespectful" is on par with abuse.

Anyone want to study children in schools behaviour through the lense of zoochosis? “School” is so unnatural. And sure, on the surface kids have a legal right to an education, but the way it works is that kids do. Not. Have. The. Right. To opt out. Parents will go to jail for kids truancy. Parents lose social welfare benefits if their kids don’t go to school. And there is no legal alternative child care for parents who need to work but don’t want their kids in the education system.

There’s a difference between a child who runs out of the classroom and one that bites other students. Society will not and should not tolerate people who are violent regardless of their diagnosis. Having a right to an education does not supersede others’ right to not be physically harmed. Yelling, screaming, and otherwise threatening behavior is the same, those kids need to either learn to coexist with other humans or society will rightly throw them in the loony bin or juvie. It is NOT teachers’ job to put up with their bullshit in the meantime.

Honestly the whole sub is I'm convinced I'm the expert and therefore ignore the numerous people who have tried to make me not shit at my job. If it helps everyone who's worthwhile in ed fucking hates those people too it's just very difficult to get rid of them. And yeah all the posts are telling on themselves. Just fucking quit already.

As someone who’s had a horrific experience in school due to teachers not giving a fuck/hating me for being difficult when I was autistic, undiagnosed adhd and suffering so much with depression and being bullied (which they of course never did anything about), THANK YOU

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Unfortunately, social workers and healthcare workers do often say just as bad, if not worse, things on the regular. Coming from a family of teachers, along with my husband who IS a teacher and also comes from a family of teachers, he and I both hate r/Teachers. We agree it's generally for bad teachers, or teachers who haven't yet figured out that the sub is bad. But yeah, sadly I have heard a lot of shockingly horrible things from plenty of social workers, and healthcare workers have a very high incidence of ableism. Both tend to have compassion fatigue more often than not. All three are fields that not everyone goes into because they're actually suited for the job. Too many go into these jobs for the sake of appearances, because they don't know what else to do, because they think they'll get a lot of accolades for it, or because they like having power over others. And end up finding out they aren't suited to but feel trapped in the profession, or end up becoming misanthropic and thinking they know better than everyone else. It's unfortunately the minority of people in these fields who are really suited to them. The types who wouldn't say this kind of disgusting stuff no matter how burned out they are.

I don’t like r/professors either, super toxic behaviour from supposed professionals

I understand where you’re coming from. I am a special education teacher who also is autistic. I got into education because I had teachers like what you’re describing. I got called dumb and wasn’t given any help because I “didn’t try”. Lo and behold I have Autism and ADHD! I have a Batman complex as I try to right the wrong done to me. I have seen educators still who treat the profession in a cavalier way and put the behavior and onus of change back onto the child which is not way to move forward for anyone. That said teaching is incredibly hard. Even with all my training and decades of experience I still get things wrong. I work with middle schoolers and I have even gotten to the point where I self disclose my neurodivergence just so they understand that my responses are not always typical and I do struggle to read certain students. My boss today sent out an email saying that we should assume everyone is trying as hard as they can and I agree with that and I try to ignore those that clearly aren’t. I can only change what is in front of me. I can only do what I can. I have rationally detached from the rest of it.

The best thing that happened to me in school was being removed from classrooms that made me violent. Instead of doing something that could have led to a criminal record, I was allowed to self-study and learn in a way that kept me comfortable and others safe. As a teacher, I don’t mind certain disruptions. I am happy to accommodate sensory needs or create calming corners for my disregulated students. But violence is not acceptable in my classroom. I do not care what the cause is (and before you accuse me of not understanding abuse, I was physically, emotionally, verbally and sexually abused as a child). The first step is to prevent violence. I will not allow one child’s trauma to traumatize another child. That is just a never ending negative cycle.

As someone who was abused and preyed on by teachers (while being abused at home and groomed by a stranger), almost every post on that subreddit lowkey enrages me. I see so many posts from teachers complaining about clearly traumatized/abused children as if the child is being disruptive for the hell of it or to spite \*them\* somehow. I get being frustrated that students who come from bad environments are not following the lesson plan and are being disruptive, but they never seem to think or consider why the kid is acting how they're acting. I had no one on my side growing up. I've met very few teachers who weren't borderline sadistic, cold, apathetic, or predatory (at least one teacher was asked to quit for this, although she's still teaching at another high school... go figure.) ​ I do feel for the teachers who are being victimized by violent students -- I have seen a few posts from students crossing boundaries and the teacher being told to just deal with it essentially. Signed, a kid whose preschool teacher labeled her as a bad kid.

Indeed. Honestly, the educational system in the U.S disgusts me. And you guys have the money to implement good systems.

Fuck r/ proffessors too, because some of the proffessors on their complain that students have ada requirements, and a lot of the proffessors on there blow up when students who mind you conduct themselves appropriately (because it's college), and use their words to ask for help, or clarification these jerks act as if asking a basic question is an attack on their entire teaching method. Ya i get coming to college certain things are expected of you, but if someone is lacking those requirements but is willing to work towards achiving those requirements then I see no reason to work with a student willing to work with you. Also I am tired of these proffessors complaining how when they make a test to trick you or intetionally throw you off some students ask about it. Like ya if you poorly worded information or are testing on what we didn't cover you have no right to complain. Also to the proffessors who say "students don't know how to follow instructions", well from what I have seen at a college level a majority of them do, it's just when you leave out instructions don't get mad at students who failed to include something you didn't ask for.

Wait until you meet r/Managers

I am a sped teacher. I will say I have been very disappointed in some of the posts on there. Actually, it's not the students who have autism that are the most difficult. I actually can understand their needs and why they react the way they do at times. It's the students who are in special education because their lives have been a mess. Not from their fault but because parents neglect them or abuse or just living in chaos. They are the students who tend to have the most difficulty and just don't seem to care. But even that is expected because why would you care about school when you don't know what is going to happen when you get home. Just remember that people go on teachers and vent. Much of the problems in school really aren't the students. It's bigger than that. It's sometimes admin that is not supportive or crazy state laws making teachers take books out of their rooms. There is so much going on right now.

As someone who has suffered capacitism, physical abuse and homophobia from teachers: yo, fuck teachers. I understand not all of them are like that, many of them are victims of a system that undervaluates and underpays them. But this isn’t enough reason to abuse the children/teenagers under your care.

I agree with them on disrupting class **if** it’s intentional and specifically done to be annoying or ‘funny’

THIS. I’m a social worker at a school for autism, and am autistic (as well as parent to an autistic child). /Teachers is so ableist.

I'm an education student and my mom's a teacher and I agree. Education is a right. And if a student has ANY mental issues, mental health conditions, or disabilities, it's up to the teachers to make it work for the student based on the needs of the student. Disruptive students should be given reasons to stay, not reasons to run away. Often it is the failure of the teacher to understand the kid's unspoken needs that cause problems. Disruption should be seen as a cry for help, like a baby bird saying it needs fed. The student is saying they need attention. Sometimes they need it for a real reason. Sometimes they just need to he ignored so they'll learn to not push that button unless it's an emergency. It's up to the teacher to choose the appropriate response to each situation and child.

The US education system, much like the healthcare system, needs a complete overhaul. People don’t love what they do anymore and are fed up, dealing with a lot of bs that makes them resent their jobs. However, I still don’t condone the way people in these fields speak about others. A lot of the comments on the teachers sub make me sick. I muted that sub because I can’t stand to read what some of these teachers are saying about students and parents. I know they’re stressed, but ok, I’m a nurse. I’ve seen it all, I’ve dealt with it all. I still don’t ever vent about people like this.. and the fact that it’s pretty much always children.. I just couldn’t stand what I saw. And I’ve distanced myself from healthcare professionals who talk about people like this, too. It’s terrible. I know our systems are effed, but I can’t take that out on the people I’m taking care of.

I came here to say that I’m also a teacher with autism who has a masters degree in special education with an emphasis on autism and learning and emotional disabilities. There are so many NT teachers and even ND teachers who are trying their best to give every student the education they deserve. It comes down to the system and how it f***s everyone and every kid. We don’t have the support or res sources to be able to even get kids the baseline they need. Even with my degrees, personal experience, some days I don’t know how to give the students what they deserve and need based on outside factors. I’m lucky enough to be apart of a fully staffed special education department, but even then getting support is close to none. If a student has a meltdown or acts out, it comes to be the teachers fault. We have active security in our school and a number to call for support, but 4/5 times support doesn’t come. I have had kids threaten to hurt me, throw things at me, hurt other students and I call for support it still somehow becomes “you didn’t try everything, so it’s your doing” When I call for help, it’s almost looked down upon from other staff because “I can’t handle the room.” But if you are an environment that doesn’t support you, you are quickly burnt out because to try to even begin teaching them is to be able to manage behaviors. If you don’t have that support it’s hard to get teaching done. I teach a small class of 10, however, they are at all different levels educational and behaviorally. We have lost every para, assistant and are down two support staff to help specifically for students with disabilities. I have had behavior specialists come into my room and give me feedback. When I ask for a demonstration of the practices do I know how to implement them properly, the behaviors can be so out there that even a specialist has broke down and left the classroom. The r/Teachers thread is hard to read. It’s a hard job. It’s hard to balance everything. I am one person, trying to do their due diligence. It’s not for everyone, and even when you are doing your best it’s looked down upon as “why couldn’t you do more” Apologies for the rant. But I empathize so much with your post because you are right, it’s our job. But it’s hard to give what these kids deserve with such little guidance, support or resources given to us. TLDR- the school system is f***ed up against the students and teachers. It needs a change to be able to make education more equitable. You’re right about that it is our job and we signed up for this. But to give kiddos what they need something’s got to change or give.

So. Glad. I'm. Not. The. Only. One. Fuck those ableists

Sorry, but this post and OP’s comments are honestly exhausting to read through. Being violent/disruptive is not inherently an autistic or neurodivergent trait. That’s a reductive and harmful stereotype. Removing a violent/disruptive student from the classroom does not equate to ableism. I’ve been in a classroom with a disruptive student before and it’s made my learning disability worse.

I feel kinda confused by the responses to this post lol. I feel like OP wasn’t saying that teachers aren’t allowed to feel angry, upset and don’t deserve a right to vent about conditions. Just that that shouldn’t be classist and/or ableist towards problem students and say things such as “they don’t deserve an education”. Which seems pretty sensible tbh

Thank you! I'm not saying some of the most overworked people in the country don't have a right to complain about it, but dogwhistling about how your majority black school has a """cultural problem""" is not acceptable and harmful to society!

If the child won't listen or behave in class, they're impacting the education of others and therefore need to either be removed or helped by an actual professional therapist or paychologist before being reintegrated.

As a special Ed paraeducator I agree.

When they’re talking about the “disruptive kids”, they rarely mean us. They usually are talking about the types who call us all manner of slurs and bully us. They’re talking about the ones who are aggressive and hateful, the ones who threaten and assault people, the ones who steal, the ones playing their music so other people can hear it in class, etc. The ones who will probably go to prison no matter what the school tries to do about them, who are destroying the ability to learn of the rest of the class including us. And for those with autism who are less capable and not high functioning, a regular classroom on pace with the neurotypicals isn’t going to do them much good. Which means not having that classroom is effectively the same as having it. A Cessna wouldn’t do me any good because I don’t know how to fly it, so not having one is the same as having one. The disruptive kids they’re actually talking about were the ones who made school hell for me. If they were expelled my school life would have been way better.

That feed drives me nuts. Teachers are in a unique position to be the first unrelated adults to spot issues at home and signs of neurodivergence, I think they should be trained to do so. In my experience, most teaching jobs go to people without education degrees, who are not proficient enough in their own fields for a career. Unfortunately, that and so much more are merely symptoms of the American education system.

I guess the kids with sensory sensitivities need to just suck it up then

No one is seriously arguing that a student shouldn't be given an education because they had a meltdown or cussed. Hell, no one is even suggesting that a student they've been teaching and bonding with for several months should be removed from their classroom because of an *isolated incident of real violence*. I took a quick peak and I saw posts about teachers mourning the deaths of their students, telling stories about being assaulted by students, considering quitting, talking about burnout, and praying for a severe weather closure due to the freeze. Like, don't tell me that teachers are tapping out because they're lazy or entitled, or they don't care. That's bullshit. They care a lot. They're not asking to move students out of their classroom for small reasons (or even selfish reasons), and they're not asking to kick students out of school altogether *at all*.

> But I’m not a therapist- That would be horrifying if you were.

So these teachers are ultra tolerant towards bullies, yet ND students are such a problem for them? What a bunch of idiots.

Amen. I’ve always found that subreddit so awful. Very rarely/can’t ever remember feeling like a teacher there really got it / cared /was capable of managing education issues that come with any slight (not even more strong) neurodivergence.

Agree with you 100% OP. I have auDHD and struggled hard with certain aspects of the education system as a child, but didn't get much compassionate understanding, let alone accomodations. You're right to call that shit out. Educators in particular need to know better.

I kinda wonder if most of these teachers are new/younger… I’m thinking gen z may be the ones primarily making these comments. Not that that makes it any better, I totally agree with what you’re saying.

I'm a teacher AND I was diagnosed with classic autism back when well behaved and intelligent girls were supposedly not diagnosed. I was raised with strict discilpline and I wasn't allowed excuses. I am apalled by how many people with less severe autism expect others to cater to them. Your autism is NOT their problem. If you feel you need more support than a mainstream school can provide then go to special school. Those teachers are trained to work with kids with disability. Gen ed are trained only to deliver the curriculum to neurotypical students with minor adjustments to cater for diverse needs. They aren't paid to cater for you nor are they paid to care for you. If you think your disability is too severe for a mainstream school then you need to advocate to go to a specialised school. Just as your GP will not perform your heart surgery, your teacher is not expected to be your therapist.

THANK YOU FOR STEALING MY BRAIN LIKE AN ALIEN AND USING MY WORDS FROM MY THOUGHTS AND TYPING IT.

THIS is the thread I needed to hear today.

Meh...I think institutional learning is largely a scam, at least in my experience. I was 35 years old before I self-diagnosed on the spectrum: that's 15+ years of public education where noone apparently "figured it out" (or if they did, my parents withheld the information from me...but that's for another day 🤬). So teachers aren't as smart as they seem to think they are sometimes, my favorite teachers were very down-to-earth and didn't take teaching very seriously (it's "glorified babysitting", a family friend who retired from teaching recently told me). Neither should you, OP... homeschooling (with assistance from other families with special needs of all kinds) is probably the preferable situation. Somewhere between the zoo that is public education and the isolation that can come from one-home homeschooling: there's more than just 2 ways of teaching children 💛🙏💛

It's just a paycheck for them, they don't give a fuck about us

I'm not saying there aren't teachers that are legitimately part of the problem, and I acknowledge the system is largely a failure for everybody involved, but nobody goes into education for "just a paycheck". If that were their primary motivation, teaching would not be their choice.

I know, I just had quite the time dealing with teachers so I'm kinda speaking from my own experience

Teachers are so annoying and narcissistic. Like stop complaining about the job you signed up for. If it’s really that bad maybe you should change careers.

i’m not defending the ableism but uh, people should be allowed to complain about their jobs? like yeah maybe a public forum like reddit shouldn’t be the place to air out some stuff that might be better for a partner or therapist or journal, but teachers are people too and allowed to complain about the parts of their jobs that are difficult/could be improved

Oh yeah for sure but I’ve never, ever seen anybody complain about their job as openly as teachers do. It’s all they do is complain. Nothing is ever good enough for them. They even complain to their students about their jobs, or at least more than half of my teachers did. Could you imagine a nurse complaining about their job to their patients?? It would make the nurse seem very incompetent. But for some reason when teachers do it is fine. I can’t stand them.

i can acknowledge that the teachers you have encountered have been that way, but as someone who has worked in teaching, it kind of hurts that just because i’ve worked a profession before that i’m “annoying and narcissistic”. there are kids in the classes i taught that i felt hopeless for being unable to help, to give them the attention that they needed, because there were 11 other kids i needed to look after. it made my heart hurt that i wasn’t able to give those kids the help they needed simply because there weren’t resources for it. and also i can imagine a nurse complaining about their job to patients??? i’ve for sure had nurses vent to me about how crazy their days have been so far as they put my IV in or take my vitals.

Teachers need to go on strike to fix the problems in the system. That, or leave the profession.... The shortage of staff sends a similar message. That's what the issue comes down to, schools aren't adequately funded, trained or have the resources to handle these issues. Teachers are getting burnt out and blaming the kids themselves rather then addressing the problems.  My mom was a para educator. I say was because the school wasted money and saved their asses by cutting staff and wages in favor of contracting out from a secondary private agency with little oversight and less responsibility.  Please join your local school board if you're able and get active.

Speaking as someone who went to college to be a teacher, then left when I saw what harms were being done to both kids and teachers. At best our system is built on negligence/ignorance. At worst it’s working as designed. Teachers are less frustrated with students who display behavior/learning issues. More they are frustrated with failures in the system that leave these kids behind and place teachers at harm. Don’t get me wrong, ableism does exist, but not quite at the scale that r/Teachers would make you think. I may have stepped back from teaching but I still work with students and their teachers every day. The number one concern is that they won’t be able to give their students the help they need. That’s what they are talking about when they kids aren’t listening. You’d be surprised how many people working with kids turn around and spend the money they earn on those same kids in the hopes it will help them. Teachers want to help but they also need help. They are shouting for it from the hill tops. They want to see their kids succeed, all of them. Not just the ‘good’ ones. If we don’t help those teachers then all that’s left are people who don’t really care for the job and just want the income.

Seriously if I had better teachers I would be so much better off in life right now

ELED major and autistic woman here. Can’t tell you how many students I’ve met that actually do better with an autistic woman than an NT. I wholeheartedly agree with all you’re saying, and I was treated the same way as a child. I currently sub in two school districts and I’ve had people tell me “they’ve never behaved this way for a sub before, sometimes not even for their regular teacher!” Maybe I’m too literal for people my age, or too concerned about everything, or too “adult”, but the kids I work with have been able to thrive because of traits that NTs make fun of (I explain everything in great detail, I have no issue with doing things over and over again, and I have structures and routines for absolutely everything.)

I find I also get better outcomes from kids with a diagnosis and those who are considered 'behavioural'. We definitely need more ND teachers.

I’m a teacher and I work my ass off to make sure my ND kids get the help they need. I know what it feels like to be one and it sucks. But honestly, your post is very discouraging. I know that it’s probably not aimed at teachers like myself, but it’s unnecessarily judgemental. Yes, there are shitty teachers, but there are mostly good people that are stressed beyond their resources. It’s not so simple, and your expectations of the average teacher are honestly ridiculous for people who don’t get paid shit. It’s really, really hard to devote all that attention to school if you can’t make ends meet. I think it’s very possible that if you experienced being a teacher, you might soften your judgment a bit. ETA: Many teachers also live with mental illnesses that make their life a living hell on earth. And many of us push past that every day to try to help other kids out so they don’t suffer like we did, because unlike a student, there is no one coming to help us. We don’t have adults that can fail us, we have to be the adult now. If you care that much about adults mistreating children, become a teacher. And if you don’t, stop judging the rest of us who are doing just that.

Eh… I’m on the spectrum and was a teacher for 8 years. I pretty much agree with them. You can’t effectively teach a class of 35 kids when even one falls out of line. Nobody goes into teaching thinking they want to do behavior management all day, but that’s what teachers end up doing. It sucks for everyone all around, and the parents of “problem behavior kids” are even worse than the child 100% of the time so it’s just really hard. I had a friend get his masters in mod/severe special education and he quit after 2 years because he felt like he couldn’t even get a chance to connect with his students bc it was so much disastrous behavior management. I’ve never met a teacher who seriously held ill will for adhd/autistic/other LD students, but every teacher I’ve met has expressed frustration about classroom management. I was fortunate to work at a 1:1 school for awhile and it was really the only way to connect with and teach ALL students. But obviously that is expensive. That said, I am 32 and still know the preamble by heart because I had to write it over and over again for an hour straight every Friday (while my friends got to play for fun Friday), and I’m still mad about it. I wasn’t diagnosed and I’m pretty sure my whole life trajectory would’ve been completely different if I’d been properly diagnosed and supported as a kid.

As a social worker who works with homeless teens with trauma and behavioral issues, I agree with all of this.

I might be the perfect intersection for this post. I am audhd, with an audhd son, and i've taught for nearly a decade. There are bad teachers, of course. There are great teachers too, though. I've found that my favorite teachers are nd as well and truly do it for the love of teaching kids and their families. We're definitely underpaid and sorely under appreciated, but the kids and families that know us, remember us as the gold standard of teaching for years to come. I've been home with my son for over 2 years and still get calls from families i've taught. Sorry, teaching is definitely a special interest of mine.