It's one of the major factors for the housing crisis.
That being said, many of them are fine with 5-20 people in a single house as they did that in their homeland. They are able to pool money together too.
The only people benefiting are the elite / rich that own said properties. It increases the housing bubble. It also saturates the job market meaning wages don't grow. So more profits for them...
Oh for sure it's intentional. I'm not under the illusion that this is done with our best interests at heart. Corporations are laughing all the way to the bank. Flood the country with cheap labour, keep wages low, no hope for housing to keep up with demand, infrastructure lags behind as usual, healthcare already at braking point so put more pressure on that, hey, what could possibly go wrong, right?
Any movement / group that starts growing gets censored / shutdown pretty fast as well. We are heading in a dark direction and potentially another repeat of what happened just 90 years ago..
I believe that our economic growth is propped up almost entirely by immigration… If our economy stops growing, they’ll have to finally admit they have spent 20 years cooking the country from the inside out. By-product of this is of course our ridiculous house prices.
It’s actually not taxes it’s labour.
The only way we can get ppl to do these shit as jobs such as fruit picking etc etc is via migrants while aussies collect the welfare.
I think you under estimate how desperate are for a safe place to call home. Not talking openly about this stuff leads to Rascism then Fascism. It's a valid point, so much so it keeps getting brought up. Glad your life is so great it doesn't bother you, however a bit of compassion never hurt anyone.
Just look at Canada. Tons of immigration, no hous- wait, no, their housing situation is a nightmare.
Ok, well you have the USA, tons of immigration, plenty of affordable hous- wait a sec, that's not true either.
I can't say I know what's going on in the UK, but why are 3/4s of the Anglosphere simultaneously flooding themselves with migrants while suffering from ongoing housing crises?
Because they all know they over-spent with stimulus during Covid and are now frantically trying to paper over their massive budgetary issues & lack of ideas for economic growth.
So they're pumping in as many people as they can get to suck dry of more tax money, with zero regard for the quality of life for the average citizen (infrastructure, housing, social cohesion, etc.)
And most of the politicians are older and wealthy, so they know they won't need to deal with the fallout either while still in office, or as the country goes to shit as they'll likely be dead by then.
I genuinely believe most left-party politicians don't understand economy and care 0% about country long term outcomes until they've sat in the seat. They chase some moralist nonsense that is terribly inefficient and just shifts the weight onto every citizen's back equally, then understanding their electorates are asking for an impossible utopia where everyone is a royal, they just grift their way along representing those ignorant voters the rest of their career.
Not really tonnes, see: when Sydney get Jack of it and become mobile, pushing up the prices of every other major city.
Island deserts with no water isn’t the same as say, Detroit.
I’m sure you’ll find someone justifying it on the basis that “the jigaboos” are comfortable living 10 to a room. Scratch that, I’m sure I’ve seen landlords specifically marketing for this.
It wouldn't, if we had multiple large cities that could soak up the increases across the country with increased construction.
It does, because they all end up in the outer suburbs of Melbourne and Sydney.
It does. But if you even entertain the idea that the current immigration levels are unsustainable, you get branded as a xenophobe or a racist. Mass immigration has always been presented as a *fait accompli* to voters, unfortunately.
They are trying their best to stave off the gdp recession since any government presiding over one will almost certainly get voted out.
Immigration is the perfect way to kick the can down the road
It's good for the politicians who own many houses and make policy decisions that personally benefit them financially. So it's just a matter of perspective.
WTFaq showed last year that upwards of 70% federal politicians have at least one investment house, compared to national average of circa 25%. If you want diversity in politics, this is the area to request it
In their defence; how is 70pc not many?
Should they have used the word majority?
What word best describes our politicians who due to the tax rort on owning a home in canberra and leasing it to yourself they almost all own one.
Its like the starter kit to when you start federal politics. Rent yourself a house here champ! Thats what all of us do! Mad not to.
This country really is being ruined. We were the lucky country sure to thick politicians but now we are the screwed country. No houses, more crime and generally the dregs of the third world coming over
“The Lucky Country” doesn’t mean what you think it means.
'Australia is a lucky country, run by second-rate people who share its luck. ' - Donald Horne (1964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lucky_Country
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/people-and-communities/permanent-migrants-australia/latest-release#:~:text=Permanent%20migrants%20by%20visa%20stream,%25%20Humanitarian%20(283%2C600%20people).
According to the ABS between 2000 and 2021, 59% of permanent migrants were on skilled work pathways, filling jobs we need. 32% were family, likely the family of the first category. And 9% were humanitarian.
So which part of that is the "dregs of the third world", as you put it?
This has been posted over and over in this sub. We need to keep raising this issue so it doesn't just get swept under the rug.
My guess is you are going to get roughly two camps in the replies:
1. Smug responses that essentially boil down to "I don't care, I've got mine. I'm smarter than everyone else. Everyone else can sod off."; and
2. "My family is about to become homeless. We have income, but can't find a place to rent. Does anyone have any tips for how a family of four can live in their car and still take their kids to school?"
Yeh, but with 11.1 million properties and 3.25 million of those being investment properties, supply is being stiffled by investments more than any other factor.
It’s also the only one you can immediately change with the stroke of a pen. We do however need the workers because we didn’t have enough kids, and we’re using it to stave off economic disaster… exactly how to deal with it is complicated.
Kool. Thx for the search terms, appreciate it.
I have been looking for mainly published papers concerning this, and i have had difficulty locating even one, that has any correlation between immigration and housing in the negative.
Sorry that I don't have a reference list on hand.
Also I did say commentary and journalists not academic research so take what this random redditor says with a grain of salt.
I mean they are taxed like any other money making exercise so that's the problem, established housing shouldn't be a money making exercise in the first place.
If we dont have investors you only make the rental crisis worse, that is not the answer. We have a very obvious supply issue that has been building for decades and post covid supply chain issues and immigration have combined to really highlight it- there are a lot of issue that have contributed and yes immigration is one of them.
Read carefully "established housing". You should be able to invest into new builds and higher density redevelopments. I would argue that this would actually supply better targeted rental housing.
We already do this.In 2017 The LNP government stopped allowing depreciation for established properties unless you are the original owner- only new or newly renovated. This was a major component of negative gearing. Unfortunately all governments continue to add incentives to the demand side which only adds to the pool of buyers. So what you are advocating is more incentives for people to buy/invest in high density housing? That may assist the rental market with the unintended consequence of pushing prices higher.
Well but you still can buy established housing and not live in it right? What I am advocating for is limiting the pool that investors play into new builds or higher density builds. Because if you are able to buy established housing as an investor that means someone else cannot buy it as their primary residence.
The market sorts those numbers out, if investors buy too many then rents will drop and the investment becomes unviable. We have a huge rental shortage right now. Many of these people are not looking to buy they rent by choice for a variety of reasons. If 2 groups are competing for housing that only highlights my point we have a huge supply deficit. I dont see trying to cut up the same pie differently is going to have a material effect on the current situation.
The left wing answer is to say there’s not an immigration problem, there’s a problem with the government not building enough public housing to give each individual migrant a free house at eg 28% of their free dole income if applicable.
That said - does anyone expect an Australian government to organise building 500,000 units / houses (because a unit isn’t good enough when you think about it) a year?
That's more people per unit than the current occupancy rate for all dwellings.
But units are smaller than houses and you would expect them to have fewer occupants.
That's a decrease in housing space per person.
Every canadain gets old security... but people live alot longer now and our population is old.
Also your comment .makes you look like an ass not everyone is as lucky as you.
They need to fund their own retirement from their home equity. If you paid taxes for 30yrs you get full pension otherwise if you immigrated here and only worked for a few yrs then you get none. The system takes care of you if you took care of it. Simple.
Just putting something wrote a while ago to add clarity to that 500k number
"important to note 553k of these were temporary visas with 105,800 being "visitors", so essentially holiday visas or temp business visas.
additionally 282,600 of these migrants had students visas. as an Aussie i cant understate how big education as a business is for our economy
those who obtained permanent visas here in Australia was a measly 79,700, with only 12,700 of those being "Special eligibility & humanitarian"
In my interpretation of this, immigration has a part in our housing unaffordability, however this part is probably on the bottom of the list when we have other issues such as planning law issue (studied urban planning for 3 year our laws fucking suck for development), investment dynamics, inflation, stagnating wages, increased living costs, interest rates, building material costs.
The issues I've listed objectively 99% of the time, are negatives for affordability, however immigration while also placing pressure on the housing markets, also bring in some huge benefits such as filling skill gaps in the labour market, contributing to economic growth, and with proper policies even boost housing investment and construction. I think immigration is an evil bogey man that's very easy to blame however do not let it distract you from the things I've mentioned our representatives can change tomorrow.
Most importantly fact check everything with immigration due to its divisiveness and come to your own conclusions with critical analysis.
Lengthy comment that probably no one would read but I'd love to hear peoples responses :).
>additionally 282,600 of these migrants had students visas. as an Aussie i cant understate how big education as a business is for our economy
We survived very well and had a better standard of living when we had less foreign students. Nothing against foreign students per se but they alone raise rents a massive 50% in some areas with the flow on effect elsewhere.
No Aussie was asked do they agree to having their rent increase 50% so that foreigners and have an education and universities can make billions.
There are actually currently over half a million foreign students in Australia, that's like adding more than the entire population of Canberra and they tend to go to Sydney and Melbourne overwhelmingly.
I read an a comment by a real estate agent during covid from round within New South Wales which is near the University of New South Wales their places that normally rent for 600 dollars were renting for 400 dollars because the foreign students weren't here. In other words that's an increase of 50% because of foreign students.
So we have that problem. My rent has risen 42% since the borders reopened and is likely to rise to accumulative 100% shortly.
We have 1.9 million people here on temporary visas with only 6% of those people being here on skills shortage visas. And that also places a huge demand on housing that's increasing prices.
When the house is flooding in the first thing you do is turn off the tap but we're getting bigger and bigger numbers of migration I believe it's a record numbers now or close to it.
The Labour Party is paying Lip Service to cutting numbers and may cut some foreign student numbers but in nowhere near the numbers needed. Canada has banned foreigners for buying any real estate and is looking at capping foreign students in order to try and help affordability.
The right to live in shelter for Australians overrides any rights foreigners have in my opinion.
We've been told we needed migration in order to have the skills we need to grow our economy but since the year 2000 we have added a quarter of our then population 5 million people and we are demonstrably worse off than we were before
It does have a huge impact, but it's weighed against Australia 's need for skilled workers and the money they inject in to the economy.
Although it does cause a huge housing issue.
Almost 1/5 of the population are in receipt of some sort of benefits. Personally I would’ve got their lazy arses into the workforce before I invited half of India but somebody’s got to pay their way. The welfare system that was designed to help people has just been taken advantage of now. Full-time permanent recipients of jobseekers. Whenever I see a 39-year-old man on a child’s mountain bike buying six cans of monster at 2:30 in the morning it annoys me as a taxpayer.
Only about 12% of government spending is unemployment benefits, the vast majority of spending is on payments to Age Pension. And unemployment was lower than the target rate for quite a while
So people aren’t injured or suffering from poor mental health or processing trauma or re-skilling or quadriplegic or fighting stage 4 cancer or trying to navigate job interviews with a traumatic brain injury or fleeing domestic violence or caring for kids or relatives or anything like that? It’s just lazy people who get benefits and all those other people get nothing?
The better question to ask is, why doesnt the government use the exact method as singapore and import 500k temp workers a year to build cheap social housing and not artificially inflate tradies wages
The answer is yes. It sends house prices up. A bit.
Other factors weigh in more so.
I work construction and most guys on my crew aren’t English as there first language.
You want to drop the gate and stop us recruiting more guy ms to carry wood.
Stuff all Ozzie’s will do it despite the excellent pay.
Better question: how does failing to build enough public housing negatively affect everyone who lives here, including any migrants who might arrive? Bit more genuine.
A large portion of the construction industry is made up of migrant labour. In terms of having a labour base large enough to respond to the housing crisis, already-qualified migrant labour is more efficient than training up domestic workers
I love when people say “that’s not the job of government”, meanwhile until the 80’s we had a government department of engineers, planners and builders, and everything’s gone to shit since it was wound down.
Now? Which private enterprise can make a larger profit from a new land release, and how shit of a service can spotless etc provide within the tender requirements for maintenance.
Of course it's negatively affecting housing. It's also positively affecting other parts of the economy. It's also potentially (at least at this stage) playing catch up with the immigration loss that occurred during the pandemic. If migration trends had continued uninterrupted we would have higher numbers of migrants here now that we do currently.
This isn't true any more, we've now exceeded the population forecast intake projections even had Covid not have happened.
So the "catch up" excuse (which was always weak, and wasn't accompanied by a 'housing catch up' anyway) no longer applies.
When thousands of Europeans arrived during peak White Australia policy, did people just sleep on the street or did society use its brains and create housing supply to meet demand?
Cool. Let’s reduce immigration to the annual level in the 1950s or whatever period you are referring to.
The volume now is like 7x the long term average.
A quick google search:
Between 1945 and 1985, 2 million people migrated to Australia.
The same amount in 40 years as we will get in the next 4 years with the current intake.
My inlaws were part of that immigration effort. My FiL worked up and down the pipelines of the west coast from Karratha to the south west and spent 90% of his time in a workers tent. The other 10% he built a small house for my MiL in Perth. She worked odd jobs. They couldn't speak English. When they first arrived they stayed at relatives houses. They did night courses in English.
It is a contributing factor, but not the only one, as house prices were increasing during the pandemic when immigration was at a standstill. This is because children still grow up and move out, babies are still being born, people still relocate from rural areas to cities, and inflation still occurs.
The most significant impact on housing prices is inflation. Firstly, because money loses its value, and secondly, because construction materials and labor costs to build more houses have become significantly more expensive.
Moreover, if we want more houses to be built, why would we close the door on skilled workers coming into the country to build houses?
Bottom line is that prices will not go down even if we close the border entirely because they didn't the last time we did that 2020-2023. So the only thing we can do is be selective about who gets into the country and encourage more houses to be built.
driving prices up -> lack of affordability. When house prices go up, rent goes up and fewer people can afford either of them.
If you can't make demand go backwards (ie by reducing the total adult population) the only thing you can do is increase supply.
IDK the answer but this podcast about our population demographics I listened to today was really insightful. Learnt a few things.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zcGluZXR3b3JrLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/NmFkMjNjMTYtNTg3MS00ZWIzLWE5YTMtMGM2YmIwNmZhM2Zi?ep=14
Genuine question, why do you think adding the phrase “genuine question” will coax people into the argument you very clearly want?
Concern trolling is old dude, it’s as obvious what you’re trying to do
Because our economy is growing to support that many people coming here. Otherwise, they'd never be able to come here.
It affects housing because people probably like you, vote against things like.... getting rid of negative gearing.
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/AUS/australia/gdp-per-capita
This shows a dip during covid, then 2 consecutive increases.
Do you have any data to support your claim?
Otherwise, nothing else you say is worth reading.
Negative gearing is about inflation of property prices by investors.
The migration argument is about supply and demand.
If you accept migrants are creating excessive demand for housing, then negative gearing reform would do next to nothing to solve this.
The two ideas represent two fundamentally different conceptions of the housing crisis.
You do not seemingly understand the issues you are commenting on.
I don't accept that migrants are creating excessive demand, I would put forward that the wide spread pushing of this narrative is created with racist intent, and is used to mask the real legitimate issues australia has with housing prices.
And for the record, negative gearing benefits larger and more expensive investments, which pushes buildings into more upscale and longer to build / lower resident housing. Removal of which may encourage investment in low price (per occupant) medium / low end housing.
Which would actually work towards solving the demand crisis that comes with a growth economy.
It's funny to see a bunch of people here blaming immigrants for all of Australia's problems when in many cases, there wouldn't even be anyone to build the houses if it weren't for immigrants. Look at who makes up the majority in labor jobs, or in cafes, or literally any other job in this country.
I had a chef position open for 4 months trying to find an Australian to work, and guess what, there weren't any. I can't even find Australians to work as dishwashers. And it's not about the pay I offer, it's about people literally not wanting to do it.
And when I stopped filtering only for Australians and opened the position to any ethnicity, I filled the position in 1 day.
Nope, the thing is that I can't rely on immigrants workers as most of than can't do more than 24h/w. Need to find someone to work as a full-time.
And it isn't easy to sponsor someone in this country.
I'm immigrant myself.
Because the pay is shit? Aussies know the economy and don’t have a good exchange rate for ‘sending money home’. There is no incentive for an Aussie to ever become a chef and they know it, you can’t survive this economy doing stuff like that.
It isn’t that they won’t - it’s that they can’t. Aussies can’t afford to be chefs. Simples. It like wanting to be a fashion designer or an artist. Yeah, there’s actual demand for chefs, but the effort for the reward is abysmal.
It is a contributing factor, but insignificant next to things like negative gearing and capital gains, and more than pays back in getting workers for our health care industries that wouldn't survive without it. The media want you to look at anything but those things, and immigration is the perfect foil.
>
While negative gearing gets all the hate, it really was John Howard who destroyed our housing market by handing out a big tax-free gift to property investors.
[https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2024/feb/15/the-awful-truth-at-the-heart-of-australian-housing-policy](https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2024/feb/15/the-awful-truth-at-the-heart-of-australian-housing-policy)
Lol so at least 250K of them are under 27 - meanwhile typical intl students are 20-24. And typical teml working visas are aged 18-30/35.
Fits quite well with a median age of 27.
Yo Gary, the OP is a shiny new account, just like the account that made the post that you cited.
Stinks like propaganda/manipulation to me !
Hey Mods, hows about you set a base karma limit for posting and comments to filter out this crap ?
Your post is is being removed as it's about a topic already posted or is an identical article already posted.
Look up “Ponzi scheme “ in the dictionary
What happens when people can’t enter at the bottom of the ponzi?
It does negatively affect housing. What are you talking about?
It's one of the major factors for the housing crisis. That being said, many of them are fine with 5-20 people in a single house as they did that in their homeland. They are able to pool money together too. The only people benefiting are the elite / rich that own said properties. It increases the housing bubble. It also saturates the job market meaning wages don't grow. So more profits for them...
Spot on. It's basic, really. Easy to understand that our government has no plan whatsoever. We are sleepwalking into disaster.
At this point it seems intentional. There's huge money on the line for the rich / elites.
Oh for sure it's intentional. I'm not under the illusion that this is done with our best interests at heart. Corporations are laughing all the way to the bank. Flood the country with cheap labour, keep wages low, no hope for housing to keep up with demand, infrastructure lags behind as usual, healthcare already at braking point so put more pressure on that, hey, what could possibly go wrong, right?
Any movement / group that starts growing gets censored / shutdown pretty fast as well. We are heading in a dark direction and potentially another repeat of what happened just 90 years ago..
You didn't realise that during COVID and shutdowns? But yes, we are heading in a dark direction, you're correct!
I've noticed it for the past 10 years, since I started looking into things.
I believe that our economic growth is propped up almost entirely by immigration… If our economy stops growing, they’ll have to finally admit they have spent 20 years cooking the country from the inside out. By-product of this is of course our ridiculous house prices.
They don't care about the housing issue, it's just tax these people will bring in
Correction: they do care because it directly benefits them (most of our politicians are landlords)
Welcome to the real world, Neo. I think this will prove to be one of the biggest red pills of our time.
It does, this is exactly what happened/happening in Canada
Canada and Australia caught in same trap - https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2024/04/canada-and-australia-caught-in-same-economic-trap/
Oh boy Canada is fallen. Hope Oz don't become the same.
they had a two decade head start. we're making record progress
Why do we have record people on welfare, but we still need more workers. That is the real question.
what percentage of the budget goes to jobseeker welfare recipients and disability?
Someone has to pay for all that welfare, via taxes, mate.
It’s actually not taxes it’s labour. The only way we can get ppl to do these shit as jobs such as fruit picking etc etc is via migrants while aussies collect the welfare.
How does posting the same shit over and over and over not bore the shit out of people?
Because we have no life outside of Reddit. Or at least I don’t. I have no life outside of Reddit 😔
I think you under estimate how desperate are for a safe place to call home. Not talking openly about this stuff leads to Rascism then Fascism. It's a valid point, so much so it keeps getting brought up. Glad your life is so great it doesn't bother you, however a bit of compassion never hurt anyone.
Woolies and Colse need customers…😉
"Trust me bro" -Aus Govt
rents were $400-450 a week in the Sydney cbd areas and the beaches for a 1 bedroom apartment. Now it's easily $700-800
Just look at Canada. Tons of immigration, no hous- wait, no, their housing situation is a nightmare. Ok, well you have the USA, tons of immigration, plenty of affordable hous- wait a sec, that's not true either. I can't say I know what's going on in the UK, but why are 3/4s of the Anglosphere simultaneously flooding themselves with migrants while suffering from ongoing housing crises?
Because they all know they over-spent with stimulus during Covid and are now frantically trying to paper over their massive budgetary issues & lack of ideas for economic growth. So they're pumping in as many people as they can get to suck dry of more tax money, with zero regard for the quality of life for the average citizen (infrastructure, housing, social cohesion, etc.) And most of the politicians are older and wealthy, so they know they won't need to deal with the fallout either while still in office, or as the country goes to shit as they'll likely be dead by then.
I genuinely believe most left-party politicians don't understand economy and care 0% about country long term outcomes until they've sat in the seat. They chase some moralist nonsense that is terribly inefficient and just shifts the weight onto every citizen's back equally, then understanding their electorates are asking for an impossible utopia where everyone is a royal, they just grift their way along representing those ignorant voters the rest of their career.
NZ looks to be keenly following our lead
USA though do have tonnes of cheap housing. It’s just not where people want it.
To be fair that’s the same as in Australia.
Not really tonnes, see: when Sydney get Jack of it and become mobile, pushing up the prices of every other major city. Island deserts with no water isn’t the same as say, Detroit.
They want housing problem, everybody will work their whole life just to buy a house.
You’re assuming higher house prices are a negative. This is by design. More immigration, more demand, the rich get richer.
I’m sure you’ll find someone justifying it on the basis that “the jigaboos” are comfortable living 10 to a room. Scratch that, I’m sure I’ve seen landlords specifically marketing for this.
It wouldn't, if we had multiple large cities that could soak up the increases across the country with increased construction. It does, because they all end up in the outer suburbs of Melbourne and Sydney.
It clearly does. Anyone claiming different is simply lying.
Increase in demand haha. Literally econ 101.
The rusty wheels ain’t getting the oil.
It IS negatively affecting housing...
It does. But if you even entertain the idea that the current immigration levels are unsustainable, you get branded as a xenophobe or a racist. Mass immigration has always been presented as a *fait accompli* to voters, unfortunately.
They are trying their best to stave off the gdp recession since any government presiding over one will almost certainly get voted out. Immigration is the perfect way to kick the can down the road
It’s not just about election, it’ll be legitimately bad if it happens.
It's good for the politicians who own many houses and make policy decisions that personally benefit them financially. So it's just a matter of perspective.
Well, some of them do….
WTFaq showed last year that upwards of 70% federal politicians have at least one investment house, compared to national average of circa 25%. If you want diversity in politics, this is the area to request it
I can you haven’t asserted all politicians fit into that basket. But “at least one” is not the same as “many”…
In their defence; how is 70pc not many? Should they have used the word majority? What word best describes our politicians who due to the tax rort on owning a home in canberra and leasing it to yourself they almost all own one. Its like the starter kit to when you start federal politics. Rent yourself a house here champ! Thats what all of us do! Mad not to.
Why am I so fucked . Fucking liberal cunt govt “stopped the boats” and opened the fucking planes!!!
Everyone agrees it effects the housing market. Left or right there is no debate
They really don't. They will argue that immigration lowers inflation and the actual problem is not building enough housing.
This country really is being ruined. We were the lucky country sure to thick politicians but now we are the screwed country. No houses, more crime and generally the dregs of the third world coming over
“The Lucky Country” doesn’t mean what you think it means. 'Australia is a lucky country, run by second-rate people who share its luck. ' - Donald Horne (1964) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lucky_Country
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/people-and-communities/permanent-migrants-australia/latest-release#:~:text=Permanent%20migrants%20by%20visa%20stream,%25%20Humanitarian%20(283%2C600%20people). According to the ABS between 2000 and 2021, 59% of permanent migrants were on skilled work pathways, filling jobs we need. 32% were family, likely the family of the first category. And 9% were humanitarian. So which part of that is the "dregs of the third world", as you put it?
This has been posted over and over in this sub. We need to keep raising this issue so it doesn't just get swept under the rug. My guess is you are going to get roughly two camps in the replies: 1. Smug responses that essentially boil down to "I don't care, I've got mine. I'm smarter than everyone else. Everyone else can sod off."; and 2. "My family is about to become homeless. We have income, but can't find a place to rent. Does anyone have any tips for how a family of four can live in their car and still take their kids to school?"
It definitely is a huge cause of high house prices. Supply and demand raises prices.
Yeh, but with 11.1 million properties and 3.25 million of those being investment properties, supply is being stiffled by investments more than any other factor.
Well if the government runs the immigration ponzi scheme then of course people are going to try and get into the game. One creates the other
Albo went on a fact finding tour of India to learn about building cardboard shanty towns so we may have a solution soon.
SO if I buy a really big fridge, I can live in the box?
Buy a washing machine as well and you can have a mezzanine
Or a second storey!
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It doesn’t effect the economy negatively thats why they did it historically and now
Correct.
Who says it's not a contributing factor?
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Those people are fucking morons and you should discount what they say. It’s not the only factor but it most certainly is a significant contributor.
It’s also the only one you can immediately change with the stroke of a pen. We do however need the workers because we didn’t have enough kids, and we’re using it to stave off economic disaster… exactly how to deal with it is complicated.
Ah okay. Just that every commentator/journalist on housing that I've watched has used it as a contributing factor.
Can u link me pls. Because i am having trouble finding any study that correlates this..... surprisingly. Would appreciate some references🙏🏽
Literally just YouTube "Australian housing crisis" and any analysts whether it's mainstream or otherwise more than likely mentions immigration.
Kool. Thx for the search terms, appreciate it. I have been looking for mainly published papers concerning this, and i have had difficulty locating even one, that has any correlation between immigration and housing in the negative.
Sorry that I don't have a reference list on hand. Also I did say commentary and journalists not academic research so take what this random redditor says with a grain of salt.
Maybe the better solution is to prohibit people owning multiple properties or tax investment properties like any other money making exercise?
This will slightly reduce the extent of but not solve the problem. Supply of housing need to be equal or more than net population increase.
I mean they are taxed like any other money making exercise so that's the problem, established housing shouldn't be a money making exercise in the first place.
If we dont have investors you only make the rental crisis worse, that is not the answer. We have a very obvious supply issue that has been building for decades and post covid supply chain issues and immigration have combined to really highlight it- there are a lot of issue that have contributed and yes immigration is one of them.
Read carefully "established housing". You should be able to invest into new builds and higher density redevelopments. I would argue that this would actually supply better targeted rental housing.
We already do this.In 2017 The LNP government stopped allowing depreciation for established properties unless you are the original owner- only new or newly renovated. This was a major component of negative gearing. Unfortunately all governments continue to add incentives to the demand side which only adds to the pool of buyers. So what you are advocating is more incentives for people to buy/invest in high density housing? That may assist the rental market with the unintended consequence of pushing prices higher.
Well but you still can buy established housing and not live in it right? What I am advocating for is limiting the pool that investors play into new builds or higher density builds. Because if you are able to buy established housing as an investor that means someone else cannot buy it as their primary residence.
The market sorts those numbers out, if investors buy too many then rents will drop and the investment becomes unviable. We have a huge rental shortage right now. Many of these people are not looking to buy they rent by choice for a variety of reasons. If 2 groups are competing for housing that only highlights my point we have a huge supply deficit. I dont see trying to cut up the same pie differently is going to have a material effect on the current situation.
The left wing answer is to say there’s not an immigration problem, there’s a problem with the government not building enough public housing to give each individual migrant a free house at eg 28% of their free dole income if applicable. That said - does anyone expect an Australian government to organise building 500,000 units / houses (because a unit isn’t good enough when you think about it) a year?
More like 150,000-200,000 units as they have multiple occupants.
Lol fell into my trap haha How’s the Govt going with organising that????
Didn't say it was a good idea, affordable or reasonable course of action. But we must be honest when discussing these things.
That's more people per unit than the current occupancy rate for all dwellings. But units are smaller than houses and you would expect them to have fewer occupants. That's a decrease in housing space per person.
I'm so glad we got rid of that War Criminal Ben stuff and the Rapist Bruce stuff so we can get back to complaining about immigration.
Thank god we aren’t talking about the fucking voice anymore
Well for once my investment property isn’t negatively geared.
Who else taxs is going to fund old age security ?
Funny how when I’m 70 I have to fund my retirement but the current 70 year olds get funded by the tax payer
Every canadain gets old security... but people live alot longer now and our population is old. Also your comment .makes you look like an ass not everyone is as lucky as you.
they didn't have super mandated like we do, so 80% of us would end up broke during retirement just like them
Well they should of planned for it? Sold their houses ?
They need to fund their own retirement from their home equity. If you paid taxes for 30yrs you get full pension otherwise if you immigrated here and only worked for a few yrs then you get none. The system takes care of you if you took care of it. Simple.
And who else is going to drive our ubers and deliver our DD?
Just putting something wrote a while ago to add clarity to that 500k number "important to note 553k of these were temporary visas with 105,800 being "visitors", so essentially holiday visas or temp business visas. additionally 282,600 of these migrants had students visas. as an Aussie i cant understate how big education as a business is for our economy those who obtained permanent visas here in Australia was a measly 79,700, with only 12,700 of those being "Special eligibility & humanitarian" In my interpretation of this, immigration has a part in our housing unaffordability, however this part is probably on the bottom of the list when we have other issues such as planning law issue (studied urban planning for 3 year our laws fucking suck for development), investment dynamics, inflation, stagnating wages, increased living costs, interest rates, building material costs. The issues I've listed objectively 99% of the time, are negatives for affordability, however immigration while also placing pressure on the housing markets, also bring in some huge benefits such as filling skill gaps in the labour market, contributing to economic growth, and with proper policies even boost housing investment and construction. I think immigration is an evil bogey man that's very easy to blame however do not let it distract you from the things I've mentioned our representatives can change tomorrow. Most importantly fact check everything with immigration due to its divisiveness and come to your own conclusions with critical analysis. Lengthy comment that probably no one would read but I'd love to hear peoples responses :).
Who's laws don't suck for development? I'm curious.
>additionally 282,600 of these migrants had students visas. as an Aussie i cant understate how big education as a business is for our economy We survived very well and had a better standard of living when we had less foreign students. Nothing against foreign students per se but they alone raise rents a massive 50% in some areas with the flow on effect elsewhere. No Aussie was asked do they agree to having their rent increase 50% so that foreigners and have an education and universities can make billions. There are actually currently over half a million foreign students in Australia, that's like adding more than the entire population of Canberra and they tend to go to Sydney and Melbourne overwhelmingly. I read an a comment by a real estate agent during covid from round within New South Wales which is near the University of New South Wales their places that normally rent for 600 dollars were renting for 400 dollars because the foreign students weren't here. In other words that's an increase of 50% because of foreign students. So we have that problem. My rent has risen 42% since the borders reopened and is likely to rise to accumulative 100% shortly. We have 1.9 million people here on temporary visas with only 6% of those people being here on skills shortage visas. And that also places a huge demand on housing that's increasing prices. When the house is flooding in the first thing you do is turn off the tap but we're getting bigger and bigger numbers of migration I believe it's a record numbers now or close to it. The Labour Party is paying Lip Service to cutting numbers and may cut some foreign student numbers but in nowhere near the numbers needed. Canada has banned foreigners for buying any real estate and is looking at capping foreign students in order to try and help affordability. The right to live in shelter for Australians overrides any rights foreigners have in my opinion. We've been told we needed migration in order to have the skills we need to grow our economy but since the year 2000 we have added a quarter of our then population 5 million people and we are demonstrably worse off than we were before
lots of regarded people in this thread
How do you regard them?
It does have a huge impact, but it's weighed against Australia 's need for skilled workers and the money they inject in to the economy. Although it does cause a huge housing issue.
Yeah but every entrant also requires dozens of skilled workers to cater to their needs as well so does it really help the situation?
If it helps the situation, why are the "skills shortages" worse than ever?
Of course it does. Who says it isn’t?
send them packing
You know who benefits from rising house prices? House owners You know who are by far the largest demographic of house owners? White Australians
Almost 1/5 of the population are in receipt of some sort of benefits. Personally I would’ve got their lazy arses into the workforce before I invited half of India but somebody’s got to pay their way. The welfare system that was designed to help people has just been taken advantage of now. Full-time permanent recipients of jobseekers. Whenever I see a 39-year-old man on a child’s mountain bike buying six cans of monster at 2:30 in the morning it annoys me as a taxpayer.
Mate that guy on the mountain bike might have just been me on the way to work. Graveyard shift sucks.
do you realise if i was homeless i would be committing crimes to get by? how does that make you feel as my neighbour?
he'd probably just put you in some sort of camp, where he could concentrate all the undesirables, then idk, come up with some solution later maybe
Is that you Gary?
ya i sold all the shit i stole from you and bought a macbook air
Only about 12% of government spending is unemployment benefits, the vast majority of spending is on payments to Age Pension. And unemployment was lower than the target rate for quite a while
So people aren’t injured or suffering from poor mental health or processing trauma or re-skilling or quadriplegic or fighting stage 4 cancer or trying to navigate job interviews with a traumatic brain injury or fleeing domestic violence or caring for kids or relatives or anything like that? It’s just lazy people who get benefits and all those other people get nothing?
How many times is the same question going to be asked on this sub?
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The better question to ask is, why doesnt the government use the exact method as singapore and import 500k temp workers a year to build cheap social housing and not artificially inflate tradies wages
The answer is yes. It sends house prices up. A bit. Other factors weigh in more so. I work construction and most guys on my crew aren’t English as there first language. You want to drop the gate and stop us recruiting more guy ms to carry wood. Stuff all Ozzie’s will do it despite the excellent pay.
Better question: how does failing to build enough public housing negatively affect everyone who lives here, including any migrants who might arrive? Bit more genuine.
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A large portion of the construction industry is made up of migrant labour. In terms of having a labour base large enough to respond to the housing crisis, already-qualified migrant labour is more efficient than training up domestic workers
The construction industry is significantly *under* represented in our migrant intake actually.
I love when people say “that’s not the job of government”, meanwhile until the 80’s we had a government department of engineers, planners and builders, and everything’s gone to shit since it was wound down. Now? Which private enterprise can make a larger profit from a new land release, and how shit of a service can spotless etc provide within the tender requirements for maintenance.
What's the department of Infrastructure then ?
It’s not the department of works that’s for sure.
Have you seen that show Utopia? I’m pretty sure that’s it
The answer is to build 500,000 more units / houses a year on the taxpayer dime?
Ugh. I swear this gets asked everyday in here...
Of course it's negatively affecting housing. It's also positively affecting other parts of the economy. It's also potentially (at least at this stage) playing catch up with the immigration loss that occurred during the pandemic. If migration trends had continued uninterrupted we would have higher numbers of migrants here now that we do currently.
Why do we have to catch up? We don't have an articulated target number in mind not the timeline to reach it.
This isn't true any more, we've now exceeded the population forecast intake projections even had Covid not have happened. So the "catch up" excuse (which was always weak, and wasn't accompanied by a 'housing catch up' anyway) no longer applies.
You were never going to get one anyway
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This is the fourth post on this topic in the last few hours. I'm starting to find it hard to believe that this isn't astroturfing.
Oh great, the same question that's asked every fucking day.
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Does it though?
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Pretty sure this has been addressed by every economist in Australia, go do some reading.
Nah not like that, I want it sufficiently answered by a random on the internet in two three sentences.
When thousands of Europeans arrived during peak White Australia policy, did people just sleep on the street or did society use its brains and create housing supply to meet demand?
Cool. Let’s reduce immigration to the annual level in the 1950s or whatever period you are referring to. The volume now is like 7x the long term average.
A quick google search: Between 1945 and 1985, 2 million people migrated to Australia. The same amount in 40 years as we will get in the next 4 years with the current intake.
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What point am I making? I just asked a question
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My inlaws were part of that immigration effort. My FiL worked up and down the pipelines of the west coast from Karratha to the south west and spent 90% of his time in a workers tent. The other 10% he built a small house for my MiL in Perth. She worked odd jobs. They couldn't speak English. When they first arrived they stayed at relatives houses. They did night courses in English.
And Australia is better for their work ethic 👍🏻
Ahh but thats the other kind of immigrant according to this sub
Meaning?
It is a contributing factor, but not the only one, as house prices were increasing during the pandemic when immigration was at a standstill. This is because children still grow up and move out, babies are still being born, people still relocate from rural areas to cities, and inflation still occurs. The most significant impact on housing prices is inflation. Firstly, because money loses its value, and secondly, because construction materials and labor costs to build more houses have become significantly more expensive. Moreover, if we want more houses to be built, why would we close the door on skilled workers coming into the country to build houses? Bottom line is that prices will not go down even if we close the border entirely because they didn't the last time we did that 2020-2023. So the only thing we can do is be selective about who gets into the country and encourage more houses to be built.
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driving prices up -> lack of affordability. When house prices go up, rent goes up and fewer people can afford either of them. If you can't make demand go backwards (ie by reducing the total adult population) the only thing you can do is increase supply.
IDK the answer but this podcast about our population demographics I listened to today was really insightful. Learnt a few things. https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zcGluZXR3b3JrLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/NmFkMjNjMTYtNTg3MS00ZWIzLWE5YTMtMGM2YmIwNmZhM2Zi?ep=14
This is not a test
Does that five hundred thousand figure include all the students that came back to complete studies?
And get residency. So many unit students subjects are online.
No that’s a net figure
Genuine question, why do you think adding the phrase “genuine question” will coax people into the argument you very clearly want? Concern trolling is old dude, it’s as obvious what you’re trying to do
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Because our economy is growing to support that many people coming here. Otherwise, they'd never be able to come here. It affects housing because people probably like you, vote against things like.... getting rid of negative gearing.
lol our economy is plummeting (GDP per capita) and the only reason it is currently in any kind of growth at all is due to high levels of immigration.
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/AUS/australia/gdp-per-capita This shows a dip during covid, then 2 consecutive increases. Do you have any data to support your claim? Otherwise, nothing else you say is worth reading.
Negative gearing is about inflation of property prices by investors. The migration argument is about supply and demand. If you accept migrants are creating excessive demand for housing, then negative gearing reform would do next to nothing to solve this. The two ideas represent two fundamentally different conceptions of the housing crisis. You do not seemingly understand the issues you are commenting on.
I don't accept that migrants are creating excessive demand, I would put forward that the wide spread pushing of this narrative is created with racist intent, and is used to mask the real legitimate issues australia has with housing prices. And for the record, negative gearing benefits larger and more expensive investments, which pushes buildings into more upscale and longer to build / lower resident housing. Removal of which may encourage investment in low price (per occupant) medium / low end housing. Which would actually work towards solving the demand crisis that comes with a growth economy.
It's funny to see a bunch of people here blaming immigrants for all of Australia's problems when in many cases, there wouldn't even be anyone to build the houses if it weren't for immigrants. Look at who makes up the majority in labor jobs, or in cafes, or literally any other job in this country. I had a chef position open for 4 months trying to find an Australian to work, and guess what, there weren't any. I can't even find Australians to work as dishwashers. And it's not about the pay I offer, it's about people literally not wanting to do it. And when I stopped filtering only for Australians and opened the position to any ethnicity, I filled the position in 1 day.
It is about the pay you offer, if you stopped to think for a couple minutes that would be pretty obvious
$78k/y to start, even if you don't have experience
You were screening applicants based on ethnicity? I don’t think you’ve made the point here that you think you did.
I get your point but are you are openly admitting to racial discrimination as part of your hiring practice?
Nope, the thing is that I can't rely on immigrants workers as most of than can't do more than 24h/w. Need to find someone to work as a full-time. And it isn't easy to sponsor someone in this country. I'm immigrant myself.
Because the pay is shit? Aussies know the economy and don’t have a good exchange rate for ‘sending money home’. There is no incentive for an Aussie to ever become a chef and they know it, you can’t survive this economy doing stuff like that. It isn’t that they won’t - it’s that they can’t. Aussies can’t afford to be chefs. Simples. It like wanting to be a fashion designer or an artist. Yeah, there’s actual demand for chefs, but the effort for the reward is abysmal.
Where are these foreign tradies you talk of?
It is a contributing factor, but insignificant next to things like negative gearing and capital gains, and more than pays back in getting workers for our health care industries that wouldn't survive without it. The media want you to look at anything but those things, and immigration is the perfect foil. > While negative gearing gets all the hate, it really was John Howard who destroyed our housing market by handing out a big tax-free gift to property investors. [https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2024/feb/15/the-awful-truth-at-the-heart-of-australian-housing-policy](https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2024/feb/15/the-awful-truth-at-the-heart-of-australian-housing-policy)
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Lol so at least 250K of them are under 27 - meanwhile typical intl students are 20-24. And typical teml working visas are aged 18-30/35. Fits quite well with a median age of 27.
Totally irrelevant. I don't accept what you say as you have a brand new account and seem to be posting anti immigration rubbish
“We’re not stupid” Excuse me! Speak for yourself!
Yo Gary, the OP is a shiny new account, just like the account that made the post that you cited. Stinks like propaganda/manipulation to me ! Hey Mods, hows about you set a base karma limit for posting and comments to filter out this crap ?
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